October 12, 2012

How would you have reacted to Joe Biden?

Meade and I were just having a conversation, not about politics. About baseball, actually. I was expressing an idea I had. (It doesn't matter what my idea was, but in case your curiosity is distracting, my idea was that to enjoy baseball, you need to watch the game in real time, with the slow parts left in, and once you start fast-forwarding to the parts that look exciting, it ruins the experience, and you might as well just read a report of what happened.) Meade keeps scoffing and laughing really annoyingly, until I get the joke that he's doing his Joe Biden imitation.... at which point I give him the finger. Suddenly, I realize that is the normal reaction to Biden's antics. Give him the finger.

There are other reactions when someone acts like that, laughing in your face, rolling their eyes, smirking, every time you're trying to say something. It's incredibly antagonizing! In real life, what do you do? There are different reactions, depending on how much of a friendship you have and how much you know about this person's propensity toward physical violence and whether you have a good escape route.

But sometimes you're in a situation where you must maintain your demeanor, despite the other guy's antagonism. For example, in a job interview or a discussion with your boss or maybe when you were a kid and your father was exerting his authority. The VP debate is also, obviously, one of those situations. Imagine if Ryan had given Biden the finger? Ryan is a young man, he had to have been thinking of the various reactions that you'd use in an ordinary social situation, even as he rejected each one and told himself that he had to keep acting as if Biden were not behaving inappropriately.

And what was going through Biden's head? (♪♫What goes on in Biden's brain?♪♫) Did the old man lose control of his bodily functions? Let's assume he had a strategy and was deliberately annoying, distracting, bullying, and rude. Why would he adopt such a strategy? Has he no self-respect? Maybe he's okay with his longstanding "Old Joe" reputation. He's a clown. A gaffe machine. So what? Everyone already thinks that. Flip it! Weaponize clownery. If it was a plan, it was a plan to provoke Ryan. What if Ryan suddenly gave him the finger? Where's your choir boy now, Ryanistas?

295 comments:

1 – 200 of 295   Newer›   Newest»
The Farmer said...

I'd've asked him why he kept referring to Netenyahu as "Bibi."

AlphaLiberal said...

Republicans really need to stop thinking it's rude to call them on their lies.

Chip Ahoy said...

Shut up when I'm speaking Crackpot or you'll be picking up those grinning dentures off the floor.

Chip Ahoy said...

He called him Bibi to make it appear as if they'd been close, low these many years, to give strength to the casual lie that Obama saw Bibi as much as anybody. Records will show differently.

rhhardin said...

Double down on explanation.

AlphaLiberal said...

Charles Pierce rocked it:

"You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick."

Paul Ryan, "zombie-eyed granny-starver."

john sager said...

The short-term judgement will be painful if you are the young guy and duly do not eat your plate of shit, but posterity - and more plates! - beckon.

Ryan wisely took the wise solemn-in-the-moment course.

Chip Ahoy said...

I wouldn't trust that asshole to walk my dog.

Matthew Sablan said...

Alpha: Speaking of Palin, Biden lied about her bringing up the IPAB during the VP debate as well.

Lies, lies everywhere.

Sorun said...

Today's topic: What was Biden's real motive for acting like such a buffoon?

All the talking heads should be discussing this.

Sloanasaurus said...

I think Biden's behavior put Ryan in a difficult position. THere really is nothing he could do about it. Any attempt to counter-act Biden would be seen as being disrepectful to the Vice President.

In that sense there is no way that Ryan could really win the debate.

The whole purpose of Biden's behavior was to get Ryan to make a mistake and thus make Ryan look small and therefore unqualified to be VP. However, that did not happen. Ryan was considered weakest in Foreign POlicy, which dominated the debate, yet Ryan appeared to be serious and competent.

This is why Biden lost, because Ryan passed the threshhold of being a legitimate contender for the office.

So now that the Debates have shown we have to competent and worthy candidates for President in Romney and VP in Ryan, what is left for Obama to run on? Why should Obama be re-elected? Why would you vote for four more years of the Obama economy.

Chip Ahoy said...

Wrong again Alpha, good to see you again, proof you've got some important urgent bullshit to pedal. Good to see Palin taking up residence in your and Biden's mind. BOO!

Comanche Voter said...

An appropriate infantile response; which I can recall observing in my long ago college days, was "Make it Maggot".

One from my old Army drill sergeant's repertoire is "Did your mama raise any idiots". That was a favorite of Drill Sergeant Bobby Jean Rowlands, the meanest man ever to roll out of the Oklahoma hills. A good drill sergeant though.

But you have to cut Slow Joe some slack--he's never had too firm a connection between his brain and his mouth.

campy said...

Today's topic: What was Biden's real motive for acting like such a buffoon?

Acting? That wasn't acting. That was a real buffoon.

roesch/voltaire said...

It a challenge to keep a straight face when the other spins so much "malarkey," would you rather Biden look down or not address the issue as Obama did? But I think the telling moment in the debate came when they were asked to explain how their religion informed their lives. Biden seemed introspective and sincere, but not willing to turn his personal belief into public policy--in contrast to Ryan seems to find religion an ideology that should become public policy, and again he seemed devoid, in spite of all his little stories, of humility and compassion.

rhhardin said...

Baseball is best enjoyed on the radio while you're doing something else.

This would be before the announcer frame-breaking excitement act though.

Ernie Harwell and Paul Carey for the Tigers, would be good.

It's even better if the signal fades in and out.

And most of all, you're not really listening except for the presence of an event.

TWM said...

Well, it's a ripoff from that liberal presidental movie, The American President, but I would have looked at him and said, "Joe, this is important stuff. These are serious times. And from just looking and listening to you tonight I do not see a serious man. Which isn't surprising because your entire administration is not serious. About our economy. About the threat to our nation's security. About anything. And, frankly, I think the American people deserve better."

That's what I would have said, anyway.

edutcher said...

Too bad Meade doesn't have a picture of that finger.

It'd replace iconic Althouse in an instant.

Chip Ahoy said...

He called him Bibi to make it appear as if they'd been close, low these many years, to give strength to the casual lie that Obama saw Bibi as much as anybody. Records will show differently.

They're such best buds, Netanyahu spent a half hour bitch-slapping Joe's boss - to his face - on global TV.

AlphaLiberal said...

Republicans really need to stop thinking it's rude to call them on their lies.

Hmmm, Alpha's starting to sound like Hatman.

Tim said...

In baseball, you throw chin music.

If that doesn't work, you drill him - preferably, in the ribs, below the elbow.

And, if that doesn't work, you can always clear the benches and "brawl."

Baseball fights haven't been the same since Juan Marichal took a bat to John Roseboro.

rehajm said...

Biden was so over the top with provocation, and crossed the ridiculous threshold fairly early. I bet it was easy enough for Ryan to accept Biden's challenge of provocation.

edutcher said...

AlphaLiberal said...

Charles Pierce rocked it:

"You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick."


You know what they have in common?

They both kicked Joe's ass.

Earth Girl said...

If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet ~ Proverbs 29:9

Jake Diamond said...

Why would he adopt such a strategy?

I would have told Ryan he is full of shit, but obviously that strategy was never considered.

Whether or not Biden's method of dealing with Ryan's "malarkey" was successful is a different question, but in these silly debate formats, dealing with a bullshitter is difficult.

By the way, it's curious that Meade judged Althouse's "baseball theory" to be malarkey. It's actually one of the first smart observations I've seen Althouse make about sports.

AprilApple said...

I don't think Ryan has it in him to give the Weaponized Clown Machine the finger. Ryan is the adult.

I like that Ryan was the better person.

AaronS said...

If someone in my classroom or office acted like Biden I would have insisted that they stop acting like a self-centered child and allow everyone to speak without interruption.

But this was a VP debate. He was trying to accomplish something (I assume)and I admire that he wasn't concerned with decorum or his personal appearance while striving for it. I want my elected officials pulling out all the stops when advocating for America's interests.
Ditto if Romney had been cheating. I want a president who disregards debate rules to get the job done.

Now whether Biden's assessment of America's interests is wise or unwise is a matter for debate.

ricpic said...

Did Meade tell you that Raul Ibanez is the greatest man that ever lived?

Tim said...

Observation:

The trolls are especially defensive this morning.

Must suck really bad knowing your president and vice president are such epic failures.

Normal people have enough self-esteem to distance themselves from the association, but not our trolls.

They double down on failure.

They're like the girlfriend who won't take "I don't want to see you anymore" for an answer.

I bet even Obama and Biden are embarrassed by their cult-like base:

"Hey, Barack, check out this youtube video...God, are the people who vote for us idiots, or what?"

TWM said...

"I would have told Ryan he is full of shit, but obviously that strategy was never considered."

It's a good thing, too, considering the post fact-checking indicates Biden was way more full of shit than Ryan.

Paddy O said...

Two good moments for Ryan.

"Do you know the unemployment in Scranton?" Ryan asked. Biden went ballistic. That undercut Biden's attempt to sound either like an expert or that Obama administration had regular folk as a priority.

Second, was Ryan's jab about Biden's gaffe. Shut Biden down right away and turned the conversation.

Ryan could have done more of that. Factual jabs that undercut Biden's credibility. Ryan should have gone straight at the "they didn't ask for more security" issue.

At issue in many cases was real lies.

The charge "they're lying!" is now applied to mean mere policy disagreement and interpretation. That's the only basis Ryan and others are charged with lying, for having a different approach to governing and daring to say it works, and their policy proposals would work. It's a lie because Democrats see such assertions as false, not because they are inherently lies.

But Biden was telling baldfaced actual lies. The sort that people tell not merely to get out of trouble but when they are so accustomed to making up their own reality they lie even on inconsequential things--like Palin and the death panels.

When Ryan calmly pushed back against, Biden was almost frothing at the mouth. Which means that Ryan could have responded best by goading Biden into more outrageous sorts of behavior.

Both Obama and Biden are vulnerable to losing it when their constructed reality is confronted. They have thin egos, so can be set off.

stan said...

Anyone wanting to understand the coming fiscal cliff and the failure of Washington to work out an agreement need only look at Biden last night to see why. Biden's behavior was a perfect embodiment of the attitude and actions of the administration for the last four years. And that's why liberals are loving it so much.

Ryan and the GOP can't be expected to negotiate a rational, responsible deal with dishonest, disgusting, nasty, unreasonable assholes who aren't capable of responsible behavior.

Salamandyr said...

It seems to me it was pretty clear that Biden's strategy was a reaction to what the Democrat's perceive as Obama's mistakes in the previous debates; Obama was "too polite", too congenial, and let Romney dominate the conversation with "lies".

So Biden was directed to go out there, feign outrage at Ryan's supposed deceit no matter what he said, and to be aggressive. Occasionally, that tactic worked. The problem derives, when you consider this is Biden, and he's the political equivalent of the loud drunk guy at the wedding at the best of times. He went overboard.

edutcher said...

Jake Diamond said...

Why would he adopt such a strategy?

I would have told Ryan he is full of shit, but obviously that strategy was never considered.


Largely because, among thinking beings, such is not considered an effective rebuttal.

Paul Kirchner said...

Obviously Ryan was aware of all Biden's interruptions, but when he was speaking I don't know that he was fully aware of Biden's eye-rolling, grimacing, scowling, chuckling, head shaking, looking up at the ceiling, and other Tourette's type activity.

yashu said...

Let's assume he had a strategy and was deliberately annoying, distracting, bullying, and rude. Why would he adopt such a strategy?

Remember that the most prominent MSM Ryan story right before the debate was that Ryan had supposedly gotten "testy" with a reporter (this was even the subject of an Althouse post). Of course, that characterization was bullshit. But the media ran with it anyway.

The Dems/MSM ain't subtle when they telegraph and coordinate their memes.

Almost any mortal human being subjected to Biden's behavior would've gotten "testy." The fact that Ryan maintained total composure throughout-- didn't give Biden even an iota of what Biden probably sought to provoke-- was admirable, and IMO a victory in itself.

ad hoc said...

The way that Biden acted last night reminded me of the really obnoxious guy you try to avoid at the office holiday party.

Ann Althouse said...

"Republicans really need to stop thinking it's rude to call them on their lies."

I know! As I wrote about extensively in my first post of the day, Ryan should have nailed Biden when he lied about the intelligence they had about the attack in Libya:

"RADDATZ: What were you first told about the attack? Why — why were people talking about protests? When people in the consulate first saw armed men attacking with guns, there were no protesters. Why did that go on (inaudible)?...

"BIDEN: Because that was exactly what we were told by the intelligence community. The intelligence community told us that."

I said: That is, he denies that the administration made up the video story. He blames the intelligence community. How did the intelligence community make up something so bizarre? Public protests that didn't take place?"

"BIDEN: As they learned more facts about exactly what happened, they changed their assessment."

I said: "But why would they make an assessment that included the report of vivid public events that didn't happen? That's unbelievable on its face. Malarkey!"

"BIDEN: Well, we weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security again. And by the way, at the time we were told exactly — we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. That was the assessment. And as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view."

I said: "And that is the lie of the evening! How can that not be a lie?... Ryan should have hit Biden hard on his denial that there were requests for more security. Biden just lied, and he's already accused you of lying."

Too bad Ryan didn't go for the jugular right then. He went positive, but he should have nailed Biden first.

Curious George said...

Althouse, you're right about watching baseball. Kudos. It's actually the beauty of the sport. And I agree with rhhardin "Baseball is best enjoyed on the radio while you're doing something else." I prefer baseball on the radio to TV.

Biden is a clown. It may pump up the base, which tells you all you need about liberals. Joe fucking Biden being a clown is a motivator?

Losers. The VEEP debate is another win for the GOp and another nail in Obama's coffin.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

If I had been watching the two of you I would have been turned off by your giving him the finger. CBS got quickly to the truth that Romney didn't care about the 47%, fact not talking point, so I went to Fox news which went to local stations where a professor at SMU and a couple of debate students were interviewed about the debate. The faculty guy said that undecideds were turned off by conflict. In that case respect and lack of expressed emotion was the better policy for that group. The media has to come back and say, as they may be, that you are in conflict with the way you perceive the debate to counter the undecideds tendency then to see Ryan more favorably.

gmama3 said...

Apparently the Democrats believe being rude, dismissive and obnoxious plays well with America.

I think this adolescent behavior plays extremely well with his base, you know those people who consider themselves morally and intellectually superior.

We had Obama who was petulant and ill-prepared, and Biden who was flat out rude.

However, the media is 100% behind him, and are fact checking every claim by Ryan because the tactic is that Romney and Ryan are liars. Of course they are ignoring Biden's lies on Benghazi and ignoring the whole Obama economic plan is stick the rich, with no detail or plan in fact, at all.

Chip Ahoy said...

Both Biden and Alpha evoked Palin. I find that amazing that both their minds reach for that perfectly irrelevant bit, that straw simulacrum they created. Their innate Alinsky impulses surface like that without ever actually reading him. It's a peek into the distortion field that both think that's trump card level damaging.

The impulse that Biden indulged to interrupt, I get this all the time in ordinary conversation and it is infuriating. Ryan's message is so damaging to Biden's reality that Biden cannot even allow it to be uttered. Biden contradicts as Ryan is speaking. He can't hear it. He can't allow anyone to hear it. He must stop it. Watch how many times that happens on Fox when their house liberals are debating. They cannot stand to hear the other side. They all do that. They need to be told to shut up. Over and over and over.

"Don't contradict me while I'm speaking, Stupid, and stop making stupid faces while I'm speaking, Stupid, or people will begin to think you're closed uncommunicable and stupid, Stupid.

garage mahal said...

Losers. The VEEP debate is another win for the GOp and another nail in Obama's coffin.

You would say that if Ryan shit his pants on live TV. Which, he damn near did.

Ann Althouse said...

Alpha says: "Charles Pierce rocked it: "You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan Lipstick."

It's instructive when liberals let it show that they enjoy homophobia/sexism and they love the bully, when the bully is on their side. They're just so in love with themselves that they don't see it.

Palladian said...

It's instructive when liberals let it show that they enjoy homophobia/sexism and they love the bully, when the bully is on their side. They're just so in love with themselves that they don't see it.

They do see it, and they don't care.

Ann Althouse said...

By the way, Charles Pierce in lipstick is fabulous.

edutcher said...

Ann is right, of course (I was screaming something similar, as, I think, a great many people were), but yashu's also right.

Ryan knew what the Demos wanted to do and he just beat them.

Which won the night.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

If I ran into someone who behaved as Biden did in the debate, where I work, I would go far out of my way to get him fired. Good lord imagine having a boss who behaved like Biden.

Livermoron said...

I predicted Smilin' Joe's behavior to my wife the night before the debate. With Obama polling worse than a spastic stripper, it was obvious that the president's Beta male performance needed to be countered ASAP.
They were hoping to instigate an inappropriate response from Ryan. Happily, he did not rise to the bait.
I love seeing folks like Alfalfa shouting to the other passengers on the SS Titanic Ego that all is well as they push their way into the lifeboats.

Dante said...

I would have been pissed at the moderator, and asked her to get in control of her debate.

Unfortunately, that would have come across weak, but isn't that the moderator's job? She failed.

Curious George said...

"roesch/voltaire said...
It a challenge to keep a straight face when the other spins so much "malarkey," would you rather Biden look down or not address the issue as Obama did? But I think the telling moment in the debate came when they were asked to explain how their religion informed their lives. Biden seemed introspective and sincere, but not willing to turn his personal belief into public policy--in contrast to Ryan seems to find religion an ideology that should become public policy, and again he seemed devoid, in spite of all his little stories, of humility and compassion."

What a steaming pile of liberal bullshit.

edutcher said...

PS I was talking about Ann's comment on Libya, not bullying, although she got in a good one there, too.

Ann Althouse said...

Perhaps Ryan kept calm by thinking he was letting Biden put out more and more material that would be used against him. Kind of like the friendly cop that gets the recording of the confession.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...

Whether or not Biden's method of dealing with Ryan's "malarkey" was successful is a different question, but in these silly debate formats, dealing with a bullshitter is difficult.


You seem to think that repeating that Ryan "lied" somehow makes it true.

Of course, you're a fucking moron, so it is kind of expected.

Michael said...

When people in negotiations resort to those kinds of facial histrionics then you know you are winning. Your lawyers may applaud you afterwards but when they get by themselves they will do the eye rolling. Serious people do not behave that way even if they are anxious to appear to be animated or passionate or even winning. A serious person does not smirk at his opponent. A serious person listens carefully and responds to what has been said as opposed to clowning. It was appalling to see a grown man, an old man, behave that way. It was embarrassing.

Unfortunately it was typical of progressive discussion: sarcasm, one liners, ad hominem, short on numbers, facts.

To begin with the lie of Libya was really too much.

He is a silly person.

Jay said...

roesch/voltaire said...
It a challenge to keep a straight face when the other spins so much "malarkey,"


You couldn't possibly cite a singular example of this.

Not one.

Do you have an capability for embarrassment?

Palladian said...

What's with all the asshole leftists using a picture of Paul Ryan as their Blogger Avatar? I know it's supposed to be sarcasm, but I think it's deeper than that... a manifestation of a unacknowledged sexual response to the young, handsome, athletic man.

I especially like the one where Ryan has a long, long nose photoshopped onto his face... polymorphous perversity! Hallo Doktor Freud!

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
Alpha says: "Charles Pierce rocked it: "You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan Lipstick."

It's instructive when liberals let it show that they enjoy homophobia/sexism and they love the bully, when the bully is on their side. They're just so in love with themselves that they don't see it.


How is this joke either homophobic or sexist? It is a clever play on Palin's own joke about lipstick.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

Is Biden's behavior normal? Do you know people who act as Biden did during the debate?

Chip Ahoy said...

Old and busted, hair plugs dentures dismissive joking 16 trillion debt dissimilation heavy drinking controlling everybody's health and actions lame ass excuses pointing, especially the pointing.

The new hotness, clear thinking actual numbers reasoned discussion 90 minute workout good diet no excuses low alcohol getting out of the way and letting freedom ring

AReasonableMan said...

Palladian said...
a manifestation of a unacknowledged sexual response to the young, handsome, athletic man.


He is self evidently neither young nor handsome, even by the low standards of politicians. And, he lied about his athletic prowess, indicating that there is not much there either.

Chip S. said...

I gather that the WH never seriously entertained the strategy of giving succinct, factual rebuttals of Ryan's "lies."

I could be wrong, but I think Biden would have been more persuasive if he'd lit a couple of farts while Ryan was speaking. The visuals would've been a lot better, for one thing.

Jay said...

Jake Diamond said...
I would have told Ryan he is full of shit,


I bet you would have!

I mean, you're like a big truth teller and stuff so it would have been a total putdown!

Idiot.

Paddy O said...

Kind of like the friendly cop that gets the recording of the confession

I think this is very likely. Let Joe speak, let him laugh and gaffe.

The commercial that came out right away showed the RNC was looking for just that.

Now we have Biden saying something demonstrably (rather than ideologically) false, just in time for the next Presidential debate on foreign policy. What Ryan didn't do in nailing Biden on Libya, Romney can do that much more effectively, putting Obama on the defensive with everything Biden said.

Ann Althouse said...

"Baseball is best enjoyed on the radio while you're doing something else."

I agree. The radio announcers are doing something much different from what the TV announcers do, and it's better spoken word. You can watch the TV baseball with the sound off. (As we often do at Meadhouse, where we sit together reading iPads.)

You can picture everything in your head when you hear the radio announcers. The background sounds are nice too. Very pleasant to drive cross-country and hear the game on the car radio.

Tie this to the magic of Ronald Reagan:

"Unfortunately, a then well-known political columnist cheerily asked Reagan, "Mr. President, wasn't there a time when you were announcing baseball games on the radio...'

"I managed not to groan aloud. Not missing a beat, Reagan animatedly launched into the story that he must have told hundreds of times about his stint as a Chicago Cubs announcer for an Iowa radio station when he had to re-create road trip games by following the action via ticker tape. During one game, the wire went dead just as Reagan said the pitch was coming to the plate. The rest of the conversation was his account of buying time by having the batter fouling off pitches. "I did set a world record for successive fouls," Reagan would say in recounting the tale. (The punch line to the story was that when the wire came back to life, it turned out the batter had popped out on the first pitch.)"

AJ Lynch said...

In a just world, pols like Slow Joe who spent 40 years in office and helped wreck the country financially, would suddenly disappear forever.

karrde said...

@Earth Girl


If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet ~ Proverbs 29:9


Accurate. Disturbingly accurate.

slarrow said...

I'm sorry, I guess I'm confused. Did Joe Biden debate someone last night? I mean, I saw some jackhole acting nutty on TV with Paul Ryan last night, but I couldn't understand what Gary Busey was doing there on stage. (It's the teeth, man.)

Askance said...

Ann, one only needs to look at the way people respond in these comments to see how they handle deliberate and incidentally absurd provocations in a situation where they are operating with a large audience of onlookers.

But, do you actually think that Biden could maintain such a false front? That it could possibly be a finely controlled act? How much of Biden's public persona would you then suspect of being an artificial construction?

All people fail to be entirely honest and blunt with every audience, but to suspect someone of consistently presenting a manufactured image suggests something about how you see people generally.

Ann, you are the only person I have seen to specifically call out the point where Biden was barking at Raddatz. That would not likely be part of a planned performance to provoke Ryan. It fully conveyed Biden's state of mind and the kind of person he feels comfortable being in front of the public.

Biden was Biden.

yashu said...

It seems to me it was pretty clear that Biden's strategy was a reaction to what the Democrat's perceive as Obama's mistakes in the previous debates

This, too. But what a miscalculation.

The Obama/Biden camp apparently took this lesson from the Romney/Obama debate: Romney was the alpha to Obama's beta. So I'm sure they sent Biden in with specific instructions to play the alpha role this time, to dominate.

But "alpha" and "asshole" are very different things. Romney dominated the previous debate, but he was unfailingly polite, respectful, likable, exuded competence and gravitas.

Whereas Biden was just an asshole. His attempt at "dominance" was as creepy and offputting (in a different way) as Gore's attempt at "dominance" when he invaded Bush's personal space (a clip that Althouse recently posted here). That's not "alpha" behavior. That's trying too hard, overcompensating, to come off as the alpha-- but just coming off as the asshole in the room.

I think many people watching that bizarre performance had a visceral reaction to it, a feeling of repulsion. Especially (but not just) women. That's what people are talking about at breakfast tables and water coolers-- Biden's behavior, not his talking points.

TWM said...

Reading about this morning, it certainly appears Biden turned-off women, which were already moving away from Barry as it is.

Chris said...

Biden didn't just lie about Libya, he also lied about his voting for and funding of the War in Afghanistan, and Iraq. Does he actually think there is no congressional record of his vote?

Nonapod said...

Perhaps Ryan kept calm by thinking he was letting Biden put out more and more material that would be used against him. Kind of like the friendly cop that gets the recording of the confession.

I think that may have been part of it.

I think Ryan and his prep team knew that Biden had to go on the offensive to make up ground, and they most have known that Biden would most likely get passionate and angry and verbose. They decided on a strategy of calm, measured responses. Let the other guy work himself up into a frenzy, then after the fact you can use his own words against him. Debates are always mined for clips, especially in the youtube age.

Kit said...

Too bad Ryan didn't go for the jugular right then. He went positive, but he should have nailed Biden first.

Too much Wisconsin-nice, I guess.

TWM said...

Oh, and Lindsey Lohen announced she is for Mitt. Make of that what you will . . .

AlphaLiberal said...

"How is this joke either homophobic or sexist? It is a clever play on Palin's own joke about lipstick."

I will second that question. I mean, homophobic? What does lipstick have to do with homophobia?

Was it sexist when Sarah Palin made the joke the first time, comparing hockey moms to pit bulls?

What an odd statement.

Jay said...

How does one deal with such mendacity?

“I was there, I voted against them,” Biden continued. “I said, no, we can’t afford that.”

Well, you let Joey Choppers hang himself with his own rope.

That's how.

Ann Althouse said...

"If I had been watching the two of you I would have been turned off by your giving him the finger."

If you were there, everything would have been completely different. Don't pretend to know the vibe between a husband and wife. You need to feel the spirit of the interaction, but if you'd been here, the spirit would have been different.

Jay said...

I'd love for the Obama campaign to point us to the speech where slow Joe told us: "we can’t afford that."

Wouldn't you?

Where are all these people screeching about Romney's "lies" on this one?

MayBee said...

Isn't Biden the guy who is supposed to be the guy who the administration uses to work well with Congress?

Texan99 said...

As someone said at Ace's place, you can see what it must have been like for Congress to try to negotiate with this White House. You've got a president who's sullenly uncommunicative and a vice president who alternates between laughing and attacking.

Another commenter said it was like watching a son try to take the car keys away from his senile father, and the mother just tries to find something they can agree on.

Ann Althouse said...

For one thing, I was giving "Biden" the finger.

George said...

What Ryan could have done would be to stop in the middle of one of his responses and ask Biden point black what he found funny about, say, Ambassador Stevens being murdered.

DADvocate said...

Depends on the setting. In that setting, no finger, that's Obama's specialty. I would have attempted an "therapeutic moment" where I would have addressed Biden's rudeness and inappropriate laughter as a sign of mental illness/distress. Ryan did this a little, but I would have done it further and more often.

"V-P Biden seems to think the situation in Syria/killing of an ambassador/economic crisis is humorous, but I don't..."

If we were two guys on a street corner, punching him sounds good.

harrogate said...

of course, if you had been lying and/or dodging the whole time, rather than making a substantial point, then the thing Meade mocked in all his demonstrated wisdom(oh, brother) would be called for.

But maybe that goes under the "What was Biden thinking?" category. I somehow get a sense that you do not care about the reason Biden responded the way he did.

Beta Rube said...

Well, creepie Joe certainly locked up the gargoyle vote last night.

I think Ryan did as well as he could have without getting into the slime with the crazy, screaming old guy.

Joe's Libya answers will resonate right through the election, and payback from the intel guys can be brutal.

Ann Althouse said...

"Did Meade tell you that Raul Ibanez is the greatest man that ever lived?"

I prefer Coco Crisp.

I give extra credit for names.

For example, I like Buster Posey, but I have to moderate my enthusiasm about that one today.

harrogate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...

Ann's comment calling Biden a "bully" is also a laugh. It's a fricking debate! The idea is not to go in there and lay down, it's to advance your point and your arguments and to dismantle your opponents. Which Joe Biden did very well.

BTW, Ann, Joe Biden authored the Violence Against Women Act. Paul Ryan voted AGAINST the Violence Against Women Act.

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney want to eliminate funding to Planned Parenthood and put them out of business. That is anti-women.

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney want to make contraception harder to get and allow employers to block coverage of contraception under health care plans. Again, that is anti-woman.

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney opposed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Again, that is anti-woman.

Wow, conservatives sure do think women are dumb to miss all their anti-women policies!

ha ha!

Ann Althouse said...

"How is this joke either homophobic or sexist? It is a clever play on Palin's own joke about lipstick."

It's clever? Explain.

garage mahal said...

What's with all the asshole leftists using a picture of Paul Ryan as their Blogger Avatar? I know it's supposed to be sarcasm, but I think it's deeper than that... a manifestation of a unacknowledged sexual response to the young, handsome, athletic man.

Nah that's your beat, man. No pun intended.

Pretty easy to tell who won the debate though, just by the level of incessant whining from the right. Like little fucking children.

Shouting Thomas said...

Democrats have moved from calling everybody who disagrees with them a "bigot," to calling them a "liar."

They seem to think that this represents some sort of analytical process.

Here's what the process really is:

1. The outcome of my policy preferences is good and just.

2. The outcome of your policy preferences is evil and unfair.

They never specify how they know this. The proof is that they care so deeply about people, and that you (the conservative) don't care about people.

In short, it's bullshit.

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
It's clever? Explain.


I laughed, the primary goal of any joke.

Jay said...

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney opposed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Again, that is anti-woman.

HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA

Um, According to publicly available salary data at the website Legistorm, Pelosi’s female employees earned an average annual salary of $96,394 in fiscal year 2011. Male employees earned $123,000 on average, a difference of 27.6 percent.

Um, Female employees in the Obama White House make considerably less than their male colleagues, records show.

According to the 2011 annual report on White House staff, female employees earned a median annual salary of $60,000, which was about 18 percent less than the median salary for male employees ($71,000).

You are a silly parody.

PS: That idiotic "fair pay act" is so effective you ignorants are calling for more legislation.

Conclusion: You're quite dumb.

TANSTAAFL said...

"garage mahal said...

You would say that if Ryan shit his pants on live TV. Which, he damn near did."

I do believe that it was Joe Biden wearing the Depends.

Jay said...

Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney want to eliminate funding to Planned Parenthood and put them out of business.

HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA

HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA

You really can't make that level of stupid up folks.

jr565 said...

It's pretty much a given that conservatives, despite being portrayed as uncivil, are largely the civil ones and the liberals who feign tolerance come across las lying blowhards with no sense of decorum. Thats true of Biden and alpha liberal. Who has yet, by the way addressed any of the outright lies bide was caught on already about things like the embassy bombings and Ian and Iraq/Afghanistan.

Being a stupid liar is no way to go through life son.

Shouting Thomas said...

So, Althouse, we who are called conservatives face these same tactics every day on your blog. We're aren't talking abstract stuff here.

Ultimately, every disagreement with a liberal is "bigotry" or "lies."

As Alpha keeps pointing out, if your opponent is a bigot and liar, why bother with rational debate or even common decency? (Oddly, he thinks that this repetitive statement reflects well on him.)

How to react to that?

The middle finger is useful. You could also say "fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

Once your opponent adopts these tactics, it's just open war.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...
Pretty easy to tell who won the debate though, just by the level of incessant whining from the right. Like little fucking children.


Alternatively, when someone shows up and posts "Biden won" 20 times, you can kind of see the desperation.

You silly, fat clown.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

Imagine being married to an ass like Biden, his poor wife.

Livermoron said...

I feel sorry for Smilin' Joe. He's like the alcoholic who hangs around the saloon hoping someone will spot him a drink...and is willing to drink the spitoon dry for the promise of a free beer.

If Biden actually 'won' this debate, then I would expect that the Obama campaign would stop hiding him from the press as they have been doing for the past six months.... yet somehow I just don't see Smiley making the Sunday news shows to talk about his 'win'.
Does someone expect otherwise?

Ryan should've stopped the debate and inquired into Smiley's health.
"My God, Joe, I think you are having a stroke!"
Or sentiments to that effect.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

Re: abortion. I thought it was an instructive exchange. As Fr. Roch Kereszty says in Catholic theology all people are presumed to be informed by the Holy Spirit of right and wrong. I suppose Judge whoever thought he had found right in the penumbra. So maybe he brought up a 'heresy' that is really true, but Ryan represented that people in a democracy should be given the right to find the truth and they should have the right to make laws even if in this point they, the people, are in error.

AlphaLiberal said...

I still wonder what Ann thinks lipstick has to do with homosexuality. That's curious. The gays I know don't sport lipstick. And I don't think either Ryan or Sarah Palin or homosexuals, so WTF, Ann?

And, Biden just nailed the zombie eye granny-starver from Janesville on the stimulus, pointing out that Ryan sent a letter asking for the stimulus money he had opposed, saying it would help with jobs and the economy.

Writ Small said...

It reminded me of how I imagine a debate between Batman and the Joker.
The muscular Dark Knight speaking softly and seriously but on some level not really connecting with ordinary people - frustratingly overly detailed and in the weeds. The garish Joker rudely mocking with exaggerated body movements and facial expressions, but with his deeper understanding of human nature, distressingly appearing to connect.

Jay said...

BTW, Ann, Joe Biden authored the Violence Against Women Act. Paul

If the Democrats drew up a bill entitled "Women are So Super Duper Smart & Stuff" you would label it as pro-woman.

You realize you're an idiot, right?

Chip Ahoy said...

That dumbass actually thinks activating his cheek muscles and displaying his dentured-uppers Halloween grin is endearing. It's not. It's sinister.

edutcher said...

AlphaLiberal said...

Ann's comment calling Biden a "bully" is also a laugh. It's a fricking debate!

A debate is where each side is given time to state its case and rebut the other side within a set framework of rules enforced by the moderator, not shout down the other side like it's a Munich beer hall.

And most of the Internet is describing Joe as a bully.

So, again, Alpha proves he still hasn't been housebroken.

AlphaLiberal said...

Paul Ryan rejects the Word of Jesus Christ when he espouses the doctrine of greed and selfishness and opposition to altruism that is the doctrine of Ayn Rand.

Those two philosophies are wholly incompatible. Jesus would never support granny-starving.

TANSTAAFL said...

"AlphaLiberal said...

Ann's comment calling Biden a "bully" is also a laugh. It's a fricking debate! The idea is not to go in there and lay down, it's to advance your point and your arguments and to dismantle your opponents. Which Joe Biden did very well."

Durr derp. The only thing Joe "The Langolier" Biden did was reveal himself as a prevaricating, uninformed a-hole.

Inga said...

Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship, what a bald faced lie that was, worthy of a big guffaw. How many times did Republicans filibuster?

Shouting Thomas said...

Alpha comes along to prove my point.

Thanks, Alpha.

So, it's just open war.

TANSTAAFL said...

"AlphaLiberal said...

Paul Ryan rejects the Word of Jesus Christ when he espouses the doctrine of greed and selfishness and opposition to altruism that is the doctrine of Ayn Rand."

Oh great, now we have reactionary leftist atheists lecturing about Christianity. Yawn.

Ann Althouse said...

"How is this joke either homophobic or sexist? It is a clever play on Palin's own joke about lipstick."

Okay. I'll answer the question. The line invites us to picture lipstick on Paul Ryan, and that image is meant to degrade him. Feminizing a man is used as a disparagement, and the belief that it works as a disparagement is built on a foundation of thinking that women and feminine-seeming men (i.e., a bad stereotype of gay men) are lesser human beings that manly men.

I anticipate that you'll retort that the line doesn't invite us to picture the lipstickless one wearing lipstick, but it does. What's the difference between a soccer mom and a pit bull/lipstick is funny because you picture a pit bull with lipstick and the idea is that's a soccer mom. It's very silly. And as Sarah Palin told the joke, it was self-deprecating. Self-deprecating is often a sign of good humor.

Deprecating others is a different matter. That's what Pierce's joke does. He deprecates by saying: Picture Ryan with lipstick on and he's the same as Sarah Palin, so there's the step where you think about whether the lipsticked Ryan would seem like Palin and you're supposed to find that funny.

It's mean-spirited funny. You're supposed to begin by thinking ill of Palin. That's just assumed. And then Pierce wants you to hate Ryan like you hate Palin.

It's all very ugly. And Pierce is so sure his ugliness is for the good cause that he doesn't see that it's leveraged on sexism and homophobia.

Shouting Thomas said...

Inga is one of the most awful perps here.

Her thinking is:

1. I'm a kind, good person who wants to help other people.

2. People who don't disagree with me are greedy, vicious bastards.

There is no possible response to this, except for a slap upside the head.

And, oddly, these tactics are thought of as "tolerance" by lefties.

sydney said...

It seems to me it was pretty clear that Biden's strategy was a reaction to what the Democrat's perceive as Obama's mistakes in the previous debates; Obama was "too polite", too congenial, and let Romney dominate the conversation with "lies".

Yes. I think the strategy from now on is to aggressively lie.

Rustling Leaves said...

One advantage Ryan had was that Biden's behavior was predictable. He obviously prepared with this in mind and was able to ignore the circus distractions and stay on topic. Not sure if I could have done that, I probably would have flipped the bird or worse. But I am not running for VP. Bravo to Ryan for staying level headed and articulate despite the whirlwind spinning around him. He found the calm in the storm and stuck with it. Definately VP material.

Tim said...

Ann Althouse said...

"Baseball is best enjoyed on the radio while you're doing something else."

I agree. The radio announcers are doing something much different from what the TV announcers do, and it's better spoken word. You can watch the TV baseball with the sound off. (As we often do at Meadhouse, where we sit together reading iPads.)"


Regular season, yes.

Playoff baseball? No.

Pitch location and movement, pitcher mechanics, catcher location, batter stance? None of them come through quickly or accurately on radio, but they do TV.

It's especially fun watching your presumptive NL MVP hitting a grand slam in the 5th winning, on the road, in an elimination/clinching game, against a notorious asshole named Latos, and seeing Red's catcher, Ryan Hanigan, turn immediately away in disgust as Buster Posey puts the Giants up 6-0.

Can't see that on radio.

sydney said...

How would I have reacted to Joe Biden? I, unfortunately, do not have an even temper. If a patient or a patient's relative acted that way in one of my exam rooms, I would have dismissed him from the room and from my practice. If I were in a public debate, I would probably lose my cool and say something terrible. I must say, I admire Paul Ryan for being as calm as he was, but he's a Congressman. He's used to working with blowhard fools.

AlphaLiberal said...

Well, thanks for the answer, Ann. And, yes, you're right, I don't think it causes us to imagine Ryan with Lipstick. Really, I don't want to imagine that! I did not until you mentioned it.

This is funny because it ties Ryan to Palin, a new association in the political zeitgeist.

Sometimes a joke is just a joke. You're explanation is rather tortured (but, hey, you are pro-torture).

However, I do agree that there exists a tendency to try to feminize men in politics. The thing is, that's a stock trade of the right wing against Democrats. they call Dems "girly men," etc. You have done that a few times, yourself, actually.

furious_a said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
wildswan said...

Another sports analogy: This debate was a political equivalent to an Iron Man Triathlon - 1. a liberal media person is the "impartial moderator" and unfairly cuts off the Republican points 2. the Vice president of the United States acts like a teen class trouble maker trying to knock a teacher off his game and 3. it's all on a national television during a crucial election. I think Ryan did well in that he kept his poise, kept making points and gave a good final summary. Obama would have been better all his life if he had had some seasoning like this.

Tim said...

"How many times did Republicans filibuster?"

Tell us.

With a citation that isn't the Democrat Party, please.

AJ Lynch said...

Inga- filibusters are a tool of the Senate not the House. Paul Ryan is nota member of the Senate. Got it?

Inga said...

No kidding Lynch. But he IS a Republican.

Larry J said...

Joe Biden is one heartbeat from being president. Given is ranting, manical laughter and general behavior, does anyone think Biden would be a good president? I'm convinced Obama selected Biden as life and impeachment insurance. I've seen smarter doorknobs than Biden.

George said...

As a supporter of Romney this election, I am really hoping the Obama campaign thinks this debate "proves" Obama should be as aggressive and rude towards Romney as Biden was towards Ryan--because that would lead to a blowout loss for Obama.

furious_a said...

How much of Biden's public persona would you then suspect of being an artificial construction?

Biden's held elected public office for 42 years -- his public persona, constructed or otherwise, comes to him as easily as breathing.

TWM said...

"Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship, what a bald faced lie that was, worthy of a big guffaw. How many times did Republicans filibuster?"

1. Biden came out of the gate acting like a rude, condescending doofus, so it obviously was not in response to anything Ryan said. He had his marching orders to be tough and this is his weird version of tough.

2. Can you please articulate what lies Ryan told? Even one would be nice. And if the bipartisanship thing is all you've got, then, well, you have nothing.

Please know I don't mean any of this personally. I know how sensitive you are to offense.

Larry J said...

Joe Biden is one heartbeat from being president. Given is ranting, manical laughter and general behavior, does anyone think Biden would be a good president? I'm convinced Obama selected Biden as life and impeachment insurance. I've seen smarter doorknobs than Biden.

X said...

I thought Ryan's close was very strong. He gets coffee.

Biden, you're fired.

jr565 said...

How about the lie that Biden made about Supreme Court justices being offered up by dems as being open minded. Ryan asked him, but never got an answer "is there no litmus test"?
So, is it bidens argument that the Supreme Court nominees being offered up by dems will be open minded about the whole abortion question? Tat they could go either way on it?
That epitomizes the lefts thinking on open minded ness. Xit doesn't really mean what they think it does. Being open minded means agreeing with the left's train of thought, not actually being open minded.
I feel like citing inigo Montoya "you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Strelnikov said...

Easy answer to Joe's behavior: Like Obama, he's had lifetime of people positively reinforcing that behavior. He's been elected and re-elected, time after time, with no serious opposition and is now VP. He's appeared in public too many times to count and is always praised by the media, as he is being today. Why wouldn't he think, "Hey, people must love me, including my demeanor!"?

Livermoron said...

Has 49er tix for 30 years. I always stated that I should've bought SF Giants tix instead because baseball is waaaay better in person and football is waaay better on TV.
Baseball on radio is the ultimate. My honey-do productivity trebles when baseball season starts.

I wonder if we can determine the exact moment in the debate when Smilin' Joe's left arm went numb?

Shouting Thomas said...

If you want to talk about lying, let's fact check Biden's bizarre fillibuster re Benghazi.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-october-1-2012/american-terror-story

(Sorry, but there is something in this page that prevents a direct, clickable link.)

furious_a said...

"How would you have reacted to Joe Biden?"

Probably like the tall guy on the right in this debate.

Fortunately, Paul Ryan reacted like an adult.

Old Dad said...

By most accounts, Slow Joe in private life is a genuinely nice, reasonably intelligent guy, but he has never been able to control his mouth. Hence, he frequently comes off as an affable dumbshit. He's been very successful at using his Slow Joe persona to cover his gaffes--don't take that gaffe too seriously, that's just Uncle Joe--sure he seems like a moron, but deep down he's a good guy from Scranton, etc.

His problem last night was that he came across as an asshole--the affability was gone. No longer was he the nice old doofus; he became the Joker.

I suspect that early on, Ryan was governed by his normal self discipline and good manners. As the debate progressed, his expression relaxed a bit. You could sense mild amusement.

He knew the old fool was way over the line, and he simply gave him enough rope to hang himself.

Expect Slow Joe to become Shouting Joe for the rest of the campaign--especially as their numbers continue to slide.

I expect, near the end, the old Slow Joe might return. The old dumbass will certainly want his Senate seat back.

Shouting Thomas said...

The other side of the tactics that Inga and Alpha employ is this...

If you reply to them in kind you're an "angry white man," which of course disqualifies you.

Inga, in particular, does little else. She hurls awful accusations against other people, then curls up in the fetal position and cries like a baby and demands that the PC police be summoned to protect her.

carrie said...

He was being a heckler and he was trying to provoke Ryan into doing something stupid that they could use in an ad. Ryan did the best that he could considering he had a moderator that allowed Biden to do what he wanted.

Inga said...

Ryan: Obama will reduce our Navy to the smallest it has been since before World War I.

Lie.

Richard Dolan said...

"If it was a plan, it was a plan to provoke Ryan."

It was a personality on full display, much more than any plan. When Biden gets cranked up, there's no controlling what happens next. If there was any plan last night, it was to get him cranked up. He was, and the predictable result followed: what you saw is what he is.

It certainly wasn't part of the plan for Biden to peddle some real whoppers about Benghazi. If there is any story going forward (other than how folks reacted to Biden), that will be it. Obama won't be so reckless (in part because his self-image is that buffoonery is way, way beneath him), and won't be able to defend what Biden said. I expect we'll be hearing a lot more on that subject in the next two debates.

Richard Dolan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
furious_a said...

Althouse: Too bad Ryan didn't go for the jugular right then. He went positive, but he should have nailed Biden first.

You've constructed your scenario as cross-examining an opposing witness, picking at the inconsistencies in their testimony.

That scenario works only if the judge can maintain order in the courtroom. Which Martha Raddatz was unable to do last night.

Shouting Thomas said...

And, how do you know that was a lie, Inga?

Why can't you just say that you disagree with him?

My guess... you're a sanctimonious asshole.

jr565 said...

Inga wrote:

Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship, what a bald faced lie that was, worthy of a big guffaw. How many times did Republicans filibuster?

here's a lesson for you. If you act like over the top demagogic, rude, assholes you shouldn't expect bipartisanship. Nor are you actually trying to engage in bipartisanship yourself.
That you would acknowledge the point about him being over the top but then guffaw at the lack of bipartisanship really says more about your own bias than about republicans lack of bipartisanship.

Livermoron said...

Inga is a marvel. You should leave her alone.
How many of you are nurses and ALSO naval experts?
Huh??!
Thought so.

Shouting Thomas said...

Inga employs the broadest array of shithead tactics of anybody on this board (with, perhaps, the exception of Ritmo).

She employs the "kiss my ass," "small penis," and other such raunchy rejoinders whenever she's cornered.

When the same tactics are used on her, she cries "sexual harassment."

Inga is all huffy sanctimony, which is to say, about what you'd expect from a lefty these days.

Inga said...

Ryan said that Obamacare will use tax payer funding for unrestricted abortion.

Lie.

AlphaLiberal said...

Just have to add that Ann's over-analysis of Charles Pierce's funny line comparing Lyin Paul Ryan with Sarah Palin reminded me of an old joke:

Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: That's not funny!



Lighten up! (get it?)

ha ha!

Strelnikov said...

There are two types of people in the world, those who have been hit in the face and those who have not. Biden is clearly in the second group. Even a mild beating about the head and shoulders can cause you to see the world differently.

Balfegor said...

Re: roesch/voltaire

It a challenge to keep a straight face when the other spins so much "malarkey,"

Romney managed to keep a straight face. It's not that hard for an adult with a modicum of self-control. That's why he won.

would you rather Biden look down or not address the issue as Obama did?

One can address issues without acting like a teenager -- one need not be the sullen teenager (Obama) or the class clown (Biden).

Shouting Thomas said...

Ryan said that Obamacare will use tax payer funding for unrestricted abortion.

Lie.


You're an awful fuck, Inga.

Some people disagree with your ideas. Quit being a dumb fuck and learn to accept disagreement.

Sanctimonious and self-righteous to the core.

You're just an awful fuck, Inga.

Livermoron said...

And she's a tax expert too!

You guys rightly drove that idiot (who, coincidentally was also maintained she was a nurse) from these boards...I forget her name, AppleAnnie, perhaps?
But Inga is not her.
She is much more expert.

Strelnikov said...

Ann said: "they love the bully, when the bully is on their side. They're just so in love with themselves that they don't see it."

I would add that they seem to like assuming "powerful" psuedonyms under which to make their internet tough guy statements(i.e., "Voltaire", "Alpha", "TWM" ("The Wonderful Me"?). They are clearly in my second grouping above.

X said...

we have alpha lib saying Romney will take away taxpayer money for Planned Parenthood (abortions) and Inga saying it's a lie that Obama will use taxpayer money for abortions.

Shouting Thomas said...

The tactics that Inga uses are precisely the type of tactics that she hates when evangelicals employ them.

She thinks she's rejected the mindset of the hateful, sanctimonious evangelical.

She's just taken that same mindset and moved to the left.

Inga said...

Ryan said that Obamacare would force religious institutions to provide FREE contraception.

Lie.

Matt Harris said...

Obama would have "scratched" himself with his middle finger.

Shouting Thomas said...

Ryan said that Obamacare would force religious institutions to provide FREE contraception.

Lie.


Inga responds with the same tactic as the evangelica.

She's trapped inside the mentality she thinks she despises.

Jay said...

Inga said...
Ryan said that Obamacare would force religious institutions to provide FREE contraception.

Lie.


Prove it, you batshit crazy old hag.

Or shut up.

furious_a said...

TrooferAllie: Ryan: Obama will reduce our Navy to the smallest it has been since before World War I.

Lie.


Sure it is.

Under current plans, US active force level will shrink to 276 ships.

Active force level was last that small in 1916-1917.

In case you've fallen behind, Nurse Racket, WWI occurred from 1914-1918.

kcom said...

"I laughed, the primary goal of any joke."

And that's very sad in what it says about you.

"It is a clever play on Palin's own joke"

I guess we've reassigned the meaning of the word "clever". When did that happen? How in any way is it particularly clever? Because it uses Palin's name? That's a pretty low standard but no surprise once you listen to scores of lame comedians thinking the bar really is that low.

"This is funny because it ties Ryan to Palin, a new association in the political zeitgeist."

How does it "tie" Ryan to Palin? Because you put their names in the same sentence? Seriously? See my comment above. Using Sarah Palin's name in a sentence is not "clever", ipso facto. You're going to have to work a lot harder than that. What is the association? Where's the beef? Why is your humor so exceedingly lame? Are you really that pathetic?

Jay said...

Inga said...
Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship,


Yes!!!

Because Paul Ryan saying he wanted bi-partisanship totally leads Joey Choppers to say he voted against the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan.

And such an assertion is like totally logical, you batshit crazy old hag.

Inga said...

Ryan said it was possible to cut taxes across the board by 20% and not adversely affect the middle class.

Lie

And what about those pesky loopholes?

Marshal said...

garage mahal said...
Pretty easy to tell who won the debate though, just by the level of incessant whining from the right. Like little fucking children.


I see garage's meltdown has already started. Particularly amusing is his criticism of people of good will discussing the issue, while his only contribution in years has been insults and whines. Which is childish?

I can't wait until the 7th. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll pop a blood vessel and be unable to type.

Shouting Thomas said...

The crazy old hag has nothing but the debating tactics of an old evangelical who thinks she's left that Old Time Religion.

But is unable to shake the shackles.

You are a sinner condemned to the fires of hell if you disagree with the sainted Inga.

That's all she's got.

chickelit said...

Inga said...
Ryan: Obama will reduce our Navy to the smallest it has been since before World War I.

Lie.


BRAC is an ongoing effort to close unneeded bases, ports, and airfields.

The Navy left San Francisco, in part due to local opposition from Democratics and leftists. Imagine that--the finest natural deep water port, centrally located, off limits because of uppity liberals like yourself.

Lie indeed.

Shouting Thomas said...

Disagreement with Inga is evil, brothers!

The devil will smite you if you dare to transgress!

jr565 said...

How about the distortion that Biden brou up again that Romney wouldn't move heaven and earth to fight Osama bin Laden, as if the argument was that he wasn't a priority, or would do nothing about him?

Here is Romneys full quote:

[AP reporter ] Liz Sidoti: Why haven’t we caught bin Laden in your opinion?

Romney: I think, I wouldn’t want to over-concentrate on Bin Laden. He’s one of many, many people who are involved in this global Jihadist effort.

He’s by no means the only leader. It’s a very diverse group – Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood and of course different names throughout the world.

It’s not worth moving heaven and earth and spending billions of dollars just trying to catch one person. It is worth fashioning and executing an effective strategy to defeat global, violent Jihad and I have a plan for doing that.

and this has been borne out by events since Osama has died? Still fighting the Taliban in Afganistan despite OBL being dead. Still have our embassies attacked despite ONPBL being dead. Still dealing with Iran and containment despite OBL being dead. still dealing with global jihad in North Africa, and Al Qaeda, despite OL being dead.

When clearly, the point made by Romney was a perfectly valid and sensual argument.

Biden is fundamentally dishonest on what Romneys positions even are, but not the degree to which he will demagogue him over this policy position, as if he's arguing that the Romney/Ryan administration wouldn't do anything about OBL at all.

Marshal said...

furious_a said...
In case you've fallen behind, Nurse Racket, WWI occurred from 1914-1918.


That's Nurse Ratched.

TWM said...

"Ryan said that Obamacare would force religious institutions to provide FREE contraception."

Nope not a lie. Not a full explanation, true, but considering how he got interrupted by both Biden and the moderator I'm surprised he got that out.

Here's what the law says about that:


"Section 2713 of the Public Health Service Act, enacted by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111-148) (the “Obamacare” statute), provides that “A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall, at a minimum provide coverage for and shall not impose any cost sharing requirements for— . . . (4) with respect to women, such additional preventive care and screenings . . . as provided for in comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration . ."

Further . . .

"Those HRSA guidelines currently provide for “All Food and Drug Administration approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity.” Thus, the Obamacare statute mandates that employer group health plans cover all FDA-approved contraceptive methods, including contraception, sterilization procedures, and “emergency contraception” (as the FDA calls the Plan B, Plan B One-Step, Next Choice, and Ella “morning-after” pills)."

Religious institutions will then, in fact, be forced to provide free contraception since they cannot impose any cost-sharing.

Got another one?

TWM said...

"Ryan said it was possible to cut taxes across the board by 20% and not adversely affect the middle class.

Lie

And what about those pesky loopholes?"

Name me a loophole so I can answer this.

Jay said...

Inga said...
Ryan said it was possible to cut taxes across the board by 20% and not adversely affect the middle class.

Lie


HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA

You've simply gone full retard.

Inga said...

Ryan said the ACA included an Obamacare "board", that would lead to Medicare cuts every year for seniors.

Lie.

jr565 said...

Inga, please respond to this link rewarding abortion:
http://www.aul.org/2010/03/aul-legal-team-why-the-executive-order-does-not-prevent-taxpayer-funded-abortion/

Paddy O said...

"Ryan said it was possible to cut taxes across the board by 20% and not adversely affect the middle class.

Lie"

Obama said it was possible to stimulate the economy with hundreds of billions of dollars and keep unemployment low, help the middle class, and restart the economy.

Lie?

The former charge is ideological assumption, the latter charge is demonstrable reality.

So was Obama lying? Or did he just have wrong ideological assumptions about the economy which are, then, used to determine the veracity of opponent's plans.

Ryan may be wrong. Obama certainly was wrong. I doubt either were lying. It's ruining a perfectly good word to keep using it as you do.

It's sad, even.

chickelit said...

Shouting Thomas said...
Disagreement with Inga is evil, brothers!

Inga-gotta-divide-us!

Jay said...

Folks, I've found a picture of Inga.

She was profiled in the Washington Post a few years ago.

Paddy O said...

In other words, the word "lie" is not in fact equivalent to the phrase "I disagree".

It's takes a lot of hubris to assume your opinion is the arbiter of truth itself.

Marshal said...

jr565 said...
Inga wrote:

Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship, what a bald faced lie that was, worthy of a big guffaw. How many times did Republicans filibuster?

here's a lesson for you. If you act like over the top demagogic, rude, assholes you shouldn't expect bipartisanship.


I initially interpreted the bold section as Inga's comment. I almost fell out of my chair thinking she had finally thought of something intelligent to write.

But never mind.

furious_a said...

TrooferAllie: Ryan said that Obamacare would force religious institutions to provide FREE contraception.

Lie.


Seriously, stop, you're embarassing yourself even if you're too shrill and dim to realize it.

Sister Carol Keehan Now Opposes Obama 'Accommodation' for HHS Mandate (9138)

In a five-page letter to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, dated June 15, Sister Carol Keehan, the president and CEO of the Catholic Health Association (CHA), registered her opposition to the federal law requiring co-pay-free contraception, abortion drugs and sterilization for all private employer health plans.

[..]

Thus, the bishops opposed the "accommodation," expressing "serious moral concerns” in a statement that noted the large number of Catholic institutions that self-insured and thus would be directly responsible for covering the services.

X said...

Inga, got any "Lies" that aren't lies?

Rustling Leaves said...

One advantage Ryan had was that Biden's behavior was predictable. He obviously prepared with this in mind and was able to ignore the circus distractions and stay on topic. Not sure if I could have done that, I probably would have flipped the bird or worse. But I am not running for VP. Bravo to Ryan for staying level headed and articulate despite the whirlwind spinning around him. He found the calm in the storm and stuck with it. Definately VP material.

jr565 said...

Or this:
http://www.aul.org/2010/03/aul-legal-team-why-the-executive-order-does-not-prevent-taxpayer-funded-abortion/

TWM said...

"Ryan said the ACA included an Obamacare "board", that would lead to Medicare cuts every year for seniors.

Lie"

Nope, not a lie. Again not a whole explanation but Biden and his gal Friday didn't let Ryan fully explain.


"Under Section 3403 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act,[1] Congress established the Independent Payment Advisory Board, a body composed of 15 members appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.[2] The board’s stated responsibility is to develop proposals to reduce the growth of Medicare spending. The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is to implement the board’s recommendations unless Congress enacts an alternative set of proposals that would achieve the same level of Medicare savings. This is the first time Congress has created a special mechanism to impose a hard cap on future Medicare spending."

The board will exist. And it will make cuts that can and probably will threaten seniors.


Any more?

TWM said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ann Althouse said...

"However, I do agree that there exists a tendency to try to feminize men in politics. The thing is, that's a stock trade of the right wing against Democrats. they call Dems "girly men," etc. You have done that a few times, yourself, actually."

When did I do it? Quote me.

furious_a said...

Seriously, TrooferAllie, it took longer to cut&paste those Navy and Catholic links than it did to locate them in Bing.

Bless your heart...

Marshal said...

Livermoron said...
And she's a tax expert too!


That special kind of tax expert that doesn't know the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit.

TWM said...

Seriously, Inga, are you just being partisan or do you really not know this stuff?

Dante said...

Perhaps Ryan kept calm by thinking he was letting Biden put out more and more material that would be used against him. Kind of like the friendly cop that gets the recording of the confession.

The feeling I get is that Ryan was not particularly good on his feet, but stuck to his programming.

At least that's my recollection. It reminded me of the way he talked in the obamacare summit.

Shouting Thomas said...

What really astonishing about the tactics Inga is using is that she...

Doesn't realize that the Obama campaign is self-destructing by employing the same tactics.

Livermoron said...

Jay, if that article/photo is Inga, then why does she use that awful picture in her avatar?

Tank said...

From NRO, a listing of Biden lies in just one area of the debate:

Biden’s Frequent Falsifications on Medicare and Tax Reform

When it came to health-care and tax reform, nearly everything that came out of Vice President Biden’s mouth was untrue. Here’s an incomplete list:

1. Biden repeated the false talking points — as did moderator Martha Raddatz (!) — about the Romney Medicare plan exposing seniors to higher costs. In fact, the Romney plan is explicitly designed to ensure that seniors are not exposed to any additional costs.

2. Biden repeated the false talking points about Obamacare’s $716 billion in Medicare cuts not being real cuts, because they allegedly don’t cut “benefits.” Indeed, the ratio of Obamacare’s Medicare cuts to “new benefits” is 15 to 1.

3. Biden claimed that Democratic senator Ron Wyden opposes the Wyden-Ryan Medicare reform plan. Wyden opposes the House GOP budget, because it repeals Obamacare and block-grants Medicaid, but rest assured that Wyden still supports the Wyden-Ryan plan. And that plan is actually to the right of Romney’s plan, because Wyden-Ryan contains a hard cap on Medicare spending growth (GDP + 1 percent) whereas Romney’s plan contains no growth cap.

4. Biden claimed that having the government directly negotiate drug prices under Medicare Part D would save taxpayers “$156 billion right off the bat.” In fact, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that such a change “would have a negligible effect on drug spending.”

5. Biden claimed that Paul Ryan’s House budgets would “knock 19 million people off of Medicare.” This is an entirely made-up figure. Not a single person would lose their Medicare coverage under Ryan’s budgets, and not a single person would under Romney’s plan either.

6. Biden repeated the long-debunked claim that Romney seeks a “$5 trillion tax cut,” when in fact Romney’s tax proposal is designed to be revenue-neutral. Furthermore, Biden claimed that there is a study from AEI supporting his claims. “The American Enterprise Institute study [says that] taxes will go up on the middle class,” claimed Biden. There is no such study. Two AEI scholars, Matt Jensen and Alex Brill, have in fact made the opposite case.


And, of course, this is just one area. I commented yesterday on how difficult it is to debate someone like Biden [or Inga for that matter] because the things they say are such a clusterf*** of truth mixed in with lies mixed in with nonsense. AA does a nice morning after job of unpacking some of it; on you feet, before the nation on TV, not so easy.

Justin said...

Prove it, you batshit crazy old hag.

Or shut up.


Jay, you are such a piece of shit. You're everyting that's wrong with this blog, which used sometimes have engaging discussions. Now, we have to constantly put up with you, and others like you, frothing at the mouth, just waiting for someone to say something you disagree with so you can be a jerk.

Guess what? Conservatives aren't always right. Nither are liberals. People like you, who think otherwise, are idiots, end of story.

I hope you don't have kids, but if you do, I feel sorry for them growing up with a role model like you.

Go fuck yourself. I'm sure you spend a lot time doing that anyway.

chickelit said...

Shouting Thomas said...
What really astonishing about the tactics Inga is using is that she...

Doesn't realize that the Obama campaign is self-destructing by employing the same tactics.


Is Inga a double agent--the mobiest of dicks?

furious_a said...

TrooferAllie: Back to you on ship-levels and mandatory free contraception from religious institutions.

Whaddya got?

Carnifex said...

They best ay to enjoy a game of baseball is to play it as a kid. The second way, as a spectator is to never go to a game. If you are forced to go to a game, then watch the girls in the t=shirts and "Juicy" shorts. Watching the game itself is distracting, and could be done away with.


You might get the impression that I don't like baseball. That would be wrong. I loathe baseball. Almost as much as major league soccer.

Jay said...

Inga said...
Biden was over the top, but he was reacting to Ryan's lies, like the times Ryan said he wanted bipartisanship,


Uh-huh:

SHERMAN OAKS, Calif. -- In the angry life of Maryscott O'Connor, the rage begins as soon as she opens her eyes and realizes that her president is still George W. Bush. The sun has yet to rise and her family is asleep, but no matter; as soon as the realization kicks in, O'Connor, 37, is out of bed and heading toward her computer.

Out there, awaiting her building fury: the Angry Left, where O'Connor's reputation is as one of the angriest of all. "One long, sustained scream" is how she describes the writing she does for various Web logs, as she wonders what she should scream about this day.


You're famous, inky!!

Jay said...

Justin said...

Jay, you are such a piece of shit. You're everyting that's wrong with this blog, which used sometimes have engaging discussions. Now, we have to constantly put up with you, and others like you, frothing at the mouth, just waiting for someone to say something you disagree with so you can be a jerk.


Hey homo.

Um, inky isn't capable of "disagreeing" with me since she's functionally retarded.

She is simply posting lie after lie.

So in other words, everything you said is untrue.

furious_a said...

That's Nurse Ratched.

...and "Nurse Racket" was deliberate.

Hagar said...

Professor,
The other really damaging thing Biden said about Benghazi was that no one ever told "us" (the White House?) that the consulate had asked for additional security.
(and then also, of course, that not only had these requests been denied, but the security they did have, was removed).

How on earth could this be possible?

And Biden freely admitted it in front of God and everybody?

B said...

Watching the game itself is distracting, and could be done away with.

I would have agreed wholeheartedly a few years ago, but spent a good deal of time of time painting the house this summer with the ball game on. There's something about doing something that allows for listening to a ball game on the radio that makes for perfect contentment on a hot summer afternoon.

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