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I love that. Throw the whole white obsession back at the left.Hilarious.
Careful with that. I had a couple of friends who were one quarter native american and were pasty white red heads.
She also said that when her mother and father wanted to get married, her father’s family said no because “my mother was part Delaware and part Cherokee.”HA HA HA HA HA HA HAYeah, sure, I bet that totally happened. I've been a white American for 32 years and I've yet to meet anyone who thought that having a few Indians in the woodpile was something to be ashamed of, probably because we all do. You can't marry that dirty girl; her great grandma was an Indian! Total bullshit.
Warren was convinced of her family heritage--that is not in question. People just want to know whether she used false knowledge to advance herself, not whether she lied. It's a fair question. Warren digs her own grave.
I'd like to see folks self-identify less as People of Color, more as People of Character.You know, like MLK's dream?Warren fails at the former, and thusly fails at the latter.
The "as you can see" could refer to the facts.
Why, if someone said that to me about my Cherokee ancestry, I'd smack 'em in the head with my tomahawk!That'd learn 'em!
I have a friend who is Chippewa, who was one of four Bureau of Indian Affairs officers taking a class with me a number of years ago. Brett looked more Hispanic than Indian which much to his annoyance always resulted in people coming up to him and speaking Spanish, while two of the other three had more stereotypically Indian features of jet black hair, dark red skin and large sharp noses. Brett told me they were Apache. The fourth guy had blonde hair, blue eyes, and light skin and when I asked Brett about him, he said, "Oh, he's Cherokee, they'll let anyone into their club." He didn't seem amused.
Havard can't demand return her academic honorifics, cuz that would make them indian givers
If affirmative action is intended to compensate for biases that minorities might otherwise experience, then yes, we can see that that isn't relevant in her case.
Like Willard, Brown is all about the issues lol.All of Scotty's shortcomings aside, Obama will win MA in a landslide ie Brown is toast.Also, toast is brown ...
"Like Willard, Brown is all about the issues lol.All of Scotty's shortcomings aside, Obama will win MA in a landslide ie Brown is toast.Also, toast is brown ..."I see you managed to slip past the guards and get to a computer again. Was wondering where you were . . .
One of the pieces of evidence she tried to use to establish her Cherokee heritage was that one of her ancestors had high cheek bones. It seems to me that she opened the door for using appearance as a relevant factor. As far as using race or ethnicity to decide official policy on who should get preferential treatment goes, if she doesn't look like a member of one of the accepted victim groups, the bigots wouldn't have known to discriminate against her and there would be no reason for Harvard, et al to give her a boost in the hiring process.And if we're not going to go by appearance, if we trace our DNA back far enough, we all come from a common ancestor, probably in Africa. Is the Elizabeth Warren 1/64th Cherokee standard the limit on establishing ethnicity, or can I decide for myself what value is acceptable for n when stating that since I'm 1/n African I deserve the government set-asides created for African-Americans?
All you need to know about that debate last night was the liberal commentariat saying they "both did well" which is lib-speak for "he kicked her ass." The Travelers Insurance asbestos settlement stuff was devastating to Warren.
April: Problem is, "the facts" are only that "she can't prove she's Indian", not "we know she isn't".She might even be telling the truth about a "family tradition" of Native ancestors.Or maybe she isn't.I don't know, and I'm not sure how anyone else thinks they know whether she really thought she had "an Indian in the woodpile" or not...
Warren was convinced of her family heritage--that is not in question.I question it. I had a couple of friends who were one quarter native american and were pasty white red heads.So they are awarded preferential treatment to make up for hypothetical discrimination based on a racial heritage nobody can even tell they have. Might as well start giving scholarships and teaching positions by blood type.
Brown: Warren is a big insurance monster who doesn't care about little people. Also, she is the founder of Occupy. LOL
"I see you managed to slip past the guards and get to a computer again. Was wondering where you were . . ."Indeed, you'd be disappointed otherwise.As Billy Ray said to Randolph and Mortimer Duke, No, I believe I can hang out with you fellas for a while ...
Perhaps he was referring to "seeing" the volumes that have been written to disprove her claims, including debunking her so-called family history.
bgates said...I question it. And you are entitled to do so. My giving her the benefit of the doubt doesn't diminish my curiousity about whether she used false information to advance herself. People in general want to know the depths of affirmative action--it's limits--because its proponents represent that it is limitless. People like Warren and Obama turn redistribution into retribution and reparation. This is wrong.
Why not? Aren't race and ethnicity categorizations really about perception anyway? Zimmerman is white, right? Right.
No, garage. Warren is a bloody hypocrite who talks a good game abut "helping out the little people" but pockets the big corporate cash whenever she can get her hand on it, even if that means screwing cancer victims.Just like she's in favor of minority preferences, as long as she can cash in on them, actual minorities be damned.FTR IMO, Travelers is entitled under law to a vigorous defense and OWS is shite. What is hilarious and wonderfully effective is watching hypocrite limousine liberals like Warren get their own crap shoved right back in their smug faces.
@garage: There is much to like about Scott Brown and very little to like about Elizabeth Warren. I trust that MA people will get this one right. If they don't, they deserve her.
Actually garage, Warren claims to be the mother of OWS her own little self. "Elizabeth Warren On Occupy Wall Street: I Created 'The Intellectual Foundation For What They Do"That is the headline from that right wing nut job website called the Huffington Post. Brown was quoting Warren, so it only SOUNDS like he is lying because he is quoting a liar.TreyTrey
(((((Science))))) insists I was once, going back far enough both Black and female... and also a fish.So where's my tenured postion as Professor of Black Ichthyology Studies?
I also enjoy Warren talking about how evil and exploitative mortgage banking is when she made a significant part of her fortune flipping foreclosed homes. She would know, I guess.
Actually garage, Warren claims to be the mother of OWS her own little self. "Elizabeth Warren On Occupy Wall Street: I Created 'The Intellectual Foundation For What They Do"Trey, this line of logic and reason will get you nowhere. GM is not about facts, he's about LOLing through the narrative.He knows nothing about Conservatives, and nothing objectionable about Liberals, yet portrays himself as mind-reader and motive-definer about the former, and spokesman for the latter.And... he still owes us an Indictment Update.
The Cherokee lie aside, Warren comes off as totally phony.
When claiming a racial identity, I think it demands, at least, that you have that identity while growing up.Ms Warren didn't identify as Native American when she applied for college. Why not?That, right there, seems to indicate that she didn't identify as Native American until after law school.
Warren has yet to answer this question: "Where did the taxpayers... who paid their taxes to the government, who built the roads using tax revenues... get enough money to live on AND pay taxes?"The answer she cannot speak: From the Factory Owner. The guy who paid their salaries out of his profits, AFTER his operating costs and his own taxes... and often before his own salary. The same factory owner who she says needs to pay even more, even though he is already "paying" ALL of it, in effect.
I reject the argument that well gee, let's let her off the hook because maybe she believed her family's chatter that she had Native American ancestry and whether it was factually true is not the issue because what IS factually true is that she--greedily and dishonorably and possibly but not provably dishonestly--took advantage of programs that she knew damn well were intended for Native Americans who actually had experienced some kind of real suffering related to their ethnicity and the life circumstances related to that ethnicity.Her being all someone a couple generations ago reportedly said something less than kind! makes it worse! Does that somehow erase all the middle class advantages she was raised with? Does that mean she deserved to take the place of someone like Sherman Alexie who was actually raised on the reservation among poverty, alcoholism, drug abuse, racism, joblessness, epidemic health problems and the like? Aren't her actions a slap in the face to such people?
My favorite part of that whole thing is the beginning were Brown came out wearing a black wig divided in two braids and with a superfluous zig-zaggy headband and walks right up to Warren and held up his hand like a stop sign and said "How." Whips off the wig and tosses it down and goes, "Psyche. It's me! Hi Liz." I mean, that affected the whole thing.
Rumor has it Warren considered letting Marlon Brando debate for her ...
Tom Spaulding said...I'd like to see folks self-identify less as People of Color, more as People of Character.You know, like MLK's dream?==============King had many dreams, not just the one tossaway line certain conservatives love to regurgitate.Dreams of socialism and wealth redistribution.Dreams of capitulating to the Soviets and advancing "Unilateral Peace" because "the threat of nuclear war was just too great to confront them in Vietnam or anywhere else"Dreams of race quotas in cities, where municipal jobs would be given based on race percentages in the population. Conservatives quoting Saint MLK is like the Left quoting some stray line of Reagan to justify their latest grab for power.
You didn't have to worry that marauding persons of color would come and seize your entitlement ... Now look. You built a curriculum vitæ and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a ho chunk of that and pay forward for the next white kid who comes along and wants to pretend he's an Indian.”
King had many dreams, not just the one tossaway line certain conservatives love to regurgitate.So, you have basically have nothing to add but sideline judgements...again? Thanks, commenter, for your penetrating insight. You truly are my better in every way! Enjoy your day! Hope we don't fuck it up for you!
Meade - She never pretended she was an Indian.You're lying through your teeth.
King had many dreams, not just the one tossaway line certain conservatives love to regurgitate.But which one makes sense, given the topic at hand?
Actually garage, Warren claims to be the mother of OWS her own little self. "Elizabeth Warren On Occupy Wall Street: I Created 'The Intellectual Foundation For What They Do"Okay.....but Warren is also in the back pocket of big insurance companies that steamroller over the little guy?
There are people who have Indian ancestry who are white. One was Stan Major, a talk show host in Philadelphia and Miami, who described himself as a "white Indian".I don't think the Loathsome Dove qualifies.shiloh said...Like Willard, Brown is all about the issues lol.It is a laugh, since Lieawatha's big issue is that she's the mother of "You didn't build that". All of Scotty's shortcomings aside, Obama will win MA in a landslide ie Brown is toast.He's channeling AP again.Actually, has anybody seen Little Zero's coattails? Most of the Democrat Party hasn't.Also, toast is brown ...Not as brown as what the little animal puts out here.I see you managed to slip past the guards and get to a computer again. Was wondering where you were . . .Indeed, you'd be disappointed otherwise.No, relieved is more like it. We were able to discuss things in an intelligent manner.As Billy Ray said to Randolph and Mortimer Duke, No, I believe I can hang out with you fellas for a while .Too bad the little animal is neither as smart or as funny.
There is much to like about Scott Brown and very little to like about Elizabeth Warren. I trust that MA people will get this one right. If they don't, they deserve her.I watched the debate. I thought Brown looked like a smarmy condescending cock.
I watched the debate. I thought Brown looked like a smarmy condescending cock.Tell us how you really feel! ; )
garage mahal reviles: I watched the debate. I thought Brown looked like a smarmy condescending cock.I didn't watch it. I'm not surprised by your take on Brown. That's how predicable you've become, garage. Now, the other day when you refused to knuckle under to the Islamists...and when you refused to dismiss Clint...that was unpredicatble garage.
You're going to have to explain your highlighting of "You can see", with "see" italicized, Althouse.Do you suppose that appearance, that the existence of physical characteristics typical of the aggrieved group, should have no place in determining who benefits from affirmative action?Why the hell not? Isn't any discrimination that person has faced in their lifetime directly proportional to the degree to which they appear to belong to that group?I'm sure the pale blond woman pictured at your link has not had to face much taunting or loss of opportunity because she's an injun. Even if she really was one. Which she's not.Or is it your position that the members of these various groups need a hand up or a handout not because of the discrimination they've faced, but...for some other reason?Do you suppose we need to compensate for the fact that this poor woman was raised in relative poverty because of deeply entrenched socioeconomic factors? Because I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to her either.Do you think Native Americans are somehow inherently inferior to those with European ancestry? That's a pretty shitty accusation for me to make, I know; but I'm running out of alternatives.
"Lose your temper and you lose a friend; lie and you lose yourself."~Hopi ~
lie and you lose yourselfSo that's where you lost your way. . .
Roberto said..."Meade - She never pretended she was an Indian.You're lying through your teeth."Professor Warren lied through her tipi.
garage, good point! I agree that part was overgeneralizing and pandering on Brown's part. If he were a REAL conservative he would NEVER do that! 8)Trey
King had many dreams, not just the one tossaway line certain conservatives love to regurgitate.In which we learn that the Klan Style Guide (Strunk & White, hold the Strunk) stipulates "tossaway line" should be used to mean "most famous sentence of the most famous speech of his life".What happened to you, Cedarford? Can you show me on the doll where the black man touched you?
Tom Spaulding said...King had many dreams, not just the one tossaway line certain conservatives love to regurgitate.So, you have basically have nothing to add but sideline judgements...again? Thanks, commenter, for your penetrating insight. You truly are my better in every way! Enjoy your day! Hope we don't fuck it up for you!=================The point is that that tossaway line is "internal dialogue" that conservatives like to say to comfort one another...so they too can disingenuously claim to be Saint Martin's Disciples.It doesn't sway anyone outside conservative chat rooms.Because people will then ask them about all the other stuff Saint Martin deeply believed in and wanted to be on the agenda...And disagreeing with all the other MLK stuff...the older white conservatives say "harumph!" and storm off.Many after all, know nothing about Saint Martin except that one tossaway line.
Conservatives citing a MLK line to lecture moderates, blacks and liberals is like Paul Krugman or Ezra Klein quoting Reagan in their regular Republican/conservative beatdowns:"If you people would only pay attention to our selected Reagan speech quotes, you, like Saint Ronnie if he were only alive, would support us liberals on this matter..."
Yeah! Who am I going to believe, Elizabeth Warren or my lying eyes?
One of the strange things about MA is that the electorate became mostly Dem because of the old Catholic ethnic vs. Prot establishment division in the state. (That was powerfully on display in the Kennedy vs. Lodge election, and in the many times a Saltonstall was on the ballot, back in the '50s and before.) The partisan loyalties (and resentments) that formed in the first half of the last century have been very slow to fade, even though MA isn't really like that today (similar to the way in which Jewish voters have stuck with the Dems despite the changed circumstances of that demographic). The weirdness is that Warren embodies the caricature of a MA Rep -- rich, WASPy, Harvard -- all the things that drove the Catholic ethnics away; while Scott Brown is a central casting examplar of the typical MA Dem (even though he is not Catholic). The 'fauxcahontas' thing just makes Warren even more radioactive for the voters she is trying to keep in the Dem fold (and who will presumably be voting for O over R). It's completely upside down. If Warren pulls it out (my guess is she won't), it will be a testament to the power of the unions and the Dem machine (large overlap between the two in MA). The MA Dems (like the NYC Dems) have a gift for finding deeply flawed candidates in a state and an election where an acceptable Dem ought to have been able to pull away. It's nice to know that the Dems can pick the occasional Sharon Angel or Christine O'Donnell or Todd Akin; the 'stupid party' is, as it turns out, a bipartisan affair.
MLK was a registered Republican, Cedarford!
Good analysis, Richard Dolan.
""Professor Warren claimed she was a Native American, a person of color. And as you can see, she’s not.""You can see?Only troglodyte racist opthalmologists still believe that color has anything to do with vision.
Yes, you can see..."“You refuse to release your records, and I think that speaks volumes,” he said."Warren has little to stand on except for her word and any number of checked boxes denoting her supposed heritage on old forms. She does not have features that I might recognize as Native Indian, and she has been less than forthcoming with her explanations.Saying that you want to 'fight for working families' only means you know how to read dem pro-union leftist talking points. This is a classic socialist buzz phrase used as often as the misused 'democracy' (see Egypt/Libya)
Isn't that crack about "high cheekbones like those people" kind of racist?And she has consistently claimed to be part American Indian on her CV throughout her career, and the institutions that employed her have in turn claimed her as part of their "diversity" quotas on their reports to the Federal Government.
C4: Conservatives citing a MLK line to lecture moderates, blacks and liberals is like......Alinksy Rule#4! Heh.
Brown channeling Johnnie Cochran: If her paleface is suspectyou must not elect!
If her face is pallid,her candidacy's invalid.
One of the pieces of evidence she tried to use to establish her Cherokee heritage was that one of her ancestors had high cheek bones. It seems to me that she opened the door for using appearance as a relevant factor.That sounds about as legitimate as, umm, taking calipers to Jews' noses?Can we just pass a federal law requiring that all institutions must (OK, at least colleges and universities that accept federal funds) accept race and ethnicity claims made by applicants at face value?
Elizabeth Warren is either a line-jumping fraud or a delusional fantasist. Don't see how either helps her candidacy.Stunning that the Democrats, in a blue-on-blue state like MA, can only find doorknobs like Martha Chokely or Fauxcahontas to defend Teddy Kennedy's legacy.
Meade said...If her face is pallid,her candidacy's invalid.Her cover is squalid.
There aren't a lot of races I'm really rooting for or against some one. One politician once they get to DC is so much like another.I will be disappointed for maybe 5 minutes (before life goes on) if Elizabeth Warren wins. I don't see what she takes to DC other than hectoring cluelessness and a tin ear, and there's plenty of that there now.
Mike said...MLK was a registered Republican, Cedarford!===============Another "internal conservative chat" that convinces no one outside the conservative true believer circles, especially blacks.In the 50s, MLK Sr was a Republican. Jr. was sympathetic because all the Southern white Fundies had not yet switched Parties.MLK voted for JFK in 1960, and stridently denounced Republicans in 1964 and their whole Goldwater Platform as racist and reactionary...And spent the rest of his days urging election of Deomocrats and a few moderate Republicans he favored (the sort of Republicans that once dominated in the north...same ones The New Republican Base denounces as unsaved by Jesus, traitor RINOs)
A simple genetic test would reveal if he has the markers particular to American Indians. (I will no longer use "Native American" as I was born here and am such). Of course, such an application of science would put attorneys and other word smiths out of the limelight.
@Madison Man:That's how I feel about your state's Senate race. I will be disappointed for maybe 5 minutes (before life goes on) if Tammy Baldwin wins. I don't see what she takes to DC other than hectoring cluelessness and a tin ear, and there's plenty of that there now.
She could have competed in the Miss Nordic Maiden 1965 pageant and no one would have been the least bit suspicious.But seriously, the fact that we have a one-drop rule for determining black identity does not mean that the same thing applies with respect to Native American identity.
Another "internal conservative chat" that convinces no one outside the conservative true believer circles, especially blacks.Free online lectures! Bring the kids!!!!
I thought the "as you can see" line was high risk, but Brown seemingly got away with it. I think the reason he got away with it is that Warren gave a tepid response, because she knows she is not Native American and knows that he has lied about not using alleged Native Indian status to advance her career. She is not a good enough politician to show phony outrage, so she is left to recite her planned lines focused on her beliefs based on family lore. Brown's focus on the records was smart. He assumed she is not Native American (without serious objection by Warren) and proceeded to the simple issue of release the record - to which there is no persuasive response by Warrne. And, since the issue is an interesting one, the release the records issue can dog Warren utnil election day. Great stuff.
It should be noted that not everyone who qualifies as an American Indian actually looks like one. One of my friends from work was born on a reservation in South Dakota and is about 1/4 Lakota. She's naturally blonde and green-eyed. She says that her brother looks like he came off a buffalo nickel, though. It's just the random chance of genetics that determines that sort of thing.
It should be noted that not everyone who qualifies as an American Indian actually looks like one.The real issue isn't whether or not she's an Indian. It's whether she cynically worked the system to her advantage when it's obvious she never suffered any sort of discrimination because of native American heritage.At this point it's pretty clear she checked the "native American" box, and the university was touting her as their token minority.The question the people of MA have to answer is whether or not they want to send a person like that to the Senate. Now, granted, they kept reelecting a murderous drunk for decades, so this may be small potatoes. Well, I guess he did invent the waitress sandwich. So there's that.
Hey, if she admits 'We screwed up', that means admitting "My policy was wrong, it didn't work!"And that ain't gonna happen
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