September 22, 2012

"I'm pretty sure Obama owes Nakoula an apology."

Indeed.

We're barraged by new distractions, so let's catch things that are slipping down the memory hole. It's not just Nakoula. It's Chris Stevens. Our ambassador was murdered, and he was murdered after he was targeted and he was not given security.

Shame on those who disrespected Nakoula's freedom of speech. Their faults are apparent and need to be remembered. But what happened to Chris Stevens? I don't trust that we've learned the whole story. Why wasn't he protected? Was he an inconvenient man? We saw such an effort to create static around his death. Look — riots over here, here, and here! Offensive video on the internet! Man with a "towel" around his face! And hey check out the most important thing that happened all week: Romney said "47%" to some people back in May!

The very fact that we're thinking about Nakoula — and futzing with Romney rhetoric — makes me feel that Chris Stevens got stuffed down the memory hole.

Who wanted that forgetting and why?

505 comments:

1 – 200 of 505   Newer›   Newest»
AReasonableMan said...

RedState;
"Last night Fox News broke the story that the mastermind of the attack in Libya had been released from GTMO in 2007 by George Bush."


Attempts to politicize this attack are unlikely to go well for Republicans.

AReasonableMan said...

Althouse: "Who wanted that forgetting and why?'

Much of the republican party who doesn't want Bush and his policies back in the news.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
creeley23 said...

AA: Thanks for remembering Ambassador Stevens.

phx said...

The very fact that we're thinking about Nakoula

Who's thinking about Nakoula? Didn't he get a book contract? A movie deal? Why should I think about him?

Ann Althouse said...

"Attempts to politicize this attack are unlikely to go well for Republicans."

What are you saying? Don't look there. Don't talk about that. I'm already skeptical about efforts to cover up the story, and you're saying don't talk about it? Because Bush was involved? You are politicizing it by saying there's a political interest (all around) in covering over everything. Some of us are actually still dedicated to the truth.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Ann,

Remembering Chris Stevens.

Chris Stevens was the stepson of a dear friend of mine. I met him once, some years ago.

Ann Althouse said...

"Thanks for remembering Ambassador Stevens."

This isn't a sympathy card to the family. This is a demand to know the truth.

Ivy said...

Ann...
A reasonable man is being sarcastic.
He wants to blame it on someone other than the current occupant in the white house -- so he is stirring the pot with Squirrel Tail

edutcher said...

Anybody tries to call himself President who hears an American consulate is under attack and just goes back to bed owes said Ambassador a lot more than an apology.

Nakoula is undoubtedly owed a large cash settlement and a place in the witness protection program.

PS and OT, but it's the marching orders the trolls are being given:

How campaigns try to sway polling results: “In a close race, the operatives are trying to manipulate the turnout through their paid and earned media. The earned media includes lobbying and trying to skew the public polls. Historically the most egregious case was the 2000 Gore campaign’s lobbying the networks’ exit pollsters for an early, and wrong, call in Florida. This suppressed the Florida Panhandle and Western state turnout.” …

What Obama and his allies are doing now: “The Democrats want to convince [these anti-Obama voters] falsely that Romney will lose to discourage them from voting. So they lobby the pollsters to weight their surveys to emulate the 2008 Democrat-heavy models. They are lobbying them now to affect early voting. IVR [Interactive Voice Response] polls are heavily weighted. You can weight to whatever result you want. Some polls have included sizable segments of voters who say they are ‘not enthusiastic’ to vote or non-voters to dilute Republicans. Major pollsters have samples with Republican affiliation in the 20 to 30 percent range, at such low levels not seen since the 1960s in states like Virginia, Florida, North Carolina and which then place Obama ahead. The intended effect is to suppress Republican turnout through media polling bias. We’ll see a lot more of this.


By way of Insta and Prof Jacobson from NRO.

Ann Althouse said...

Michelle Dulak Thomson posted simultaneously with my comment saying my post is not a sympathy card for the family. What she's linking to is almost literally a sympathy card for the family. Good. Thanks for linking to that. What I'm trying to do is different. I am concerned about the ongoing national security question. Why was Stevens targeted, why didn't our government protect him, why don't they want these questions explored, why are they merging his assassination with more generic clownery about a YouTube video?

Issob Morocco said...

Me thinks the Media needs to start asking questions of their own behavior and then with this Administraton or they will go down in flames with him.

It is like they watched a murderous scene unfold in front of them. They were witnessing Obama's shameful responses (from his team) and no response from him (See Empty Chair). And they did nothing, asked nothing, reported the same "Internet Hate Film" causation for all and every Islamic Extemist protest.

A US Ambassador and 3 of his aides were killed. This looks like "The Fast and Furious" response, obfuscate, lie, blame others. This is the method well known to Illinois residents as the Chicago Way.

Crooked and incompetent politicians cozy up with a suppliant and hungry for adulation media. They Spin. Journolistas spreading Obama Propaganda!

Axelrod came from this breeding pool and the campaign reeks of it. Obama never stopped campaigning from 2008 if you think of it. And this sad story is indicative of that. It is all about him, staying the President, not the President taking on evil doers.

If we are all Americans, why not act like it. Innocent Americans were killed on purpose in the service of their country in a dangerous place.

Mr. Obama why did this happen?

If the Media won't ask, perhaps the US citizens should.

Ann Althouse said...

There aren't that many assassinations of American officials. I have never seen anything like this one, where we as a people are encouraged to dilute the incident with all these other events of a much more mundane variety. An assassination should stand apart -- clear and shocking and in need of precise investigation.

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
I'm already skeptical about efforts to cover up the story, and you're saying don't talk about it?


There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up, they clearly got some of their facts wrong but how surprising is this. There cannot be many US personnel in the country, the country is still recovering from a civil war, it seems unlikely that there is much in the way of functional press and finally this was literally the fog of war. People were killed under fire.

PatCA said...

I wish his family would start asking questions and demanding answers, like the Brian Terry family. But they are probably in shock and good Democrats too.

I think the cover up is as simple as the fact that he was hung out to dry, that he himself knew he needed more security and asked for it, and that this means the entire Obama Doctrine is a failure.

Thus the palace guard can ignore it, at least until after the election.

shiloh said...

Your post below covered this thread quite aptly:

"He’ll er she'll continue to beat that horse until it’s extra dead."

creeley23 said...

This isn't a sympathy card to the family. This is a demand to know the truth.

I get it. That's what I meant and that's what I want too. I've never seen our media do as Pravda-like a job as during the riots and assassination.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

Attempts to politicize this attack are unlikely to go well for Republicans.

Considering it's the Demos and their handmaidens in the media doing the politicizing, I have no doubt the trolls will do their best to spin it as the Republicans' fault.

Who wanted that forgetting and why?

Much of the republican party who doesn't want Bush and his policies back in the news.


No, the Democrats because it highlight the complete and utter failure of this Administration both in foreign policy and in law enforcement.

Not to mention ethics.

phx said...

The very fact that we're thinking about Nakoula

Who's thinking about Nakoula? Didn't he get a book contract? A movie deal? Why should I think about him?


Because he was hauled out of his home in the middle of the night as if this were (Godwin alert) or Stalinist Russia.

But that's the way the Lefties like it, so it's OK with them.

Howard said...

Maybe a glimmer of hope in a changing region.

Libyans Attack Militia

phx said...

why are they merging his assassination with more generic clownery about a YouTube video?

Isn't that what this post does?

Ann Althouse said...

AReasonableMan said... "There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up, they clearly got some of their facts wrong but how surprising is this. There cannot be many US personnel in the country, the country is still recovering from a civil war, it seems unlikely that there is much in the way of functional press and finally this was literally the fog of war. People were killed under fire."

This was the assassination of our ambassador and you want to say "People were killed under fire." People were killed. Mistakes were made. WHO did the killing? Trace all the lines. You blandness on this topic is EXACTLY the problem I'm pointing at.

And who are YOU, AReasonableMan? You are a pseudonym created a year ago, with no information in your profile. I don't know what your function is, but you are doing the very thing I am criticizing here.

TosaGuy said...

I think Team Obama had to deploy the Mitt tape far earlier than they wanted to. Romney has time to deal with it and spin it.

If only the President was as interested in the serious aspects of being president as he is in his campaign strategy then he wouldn't be in a close race that is slipping away from him drip by drip.

creeley23 said...

I take the red alert response from our liberal trolls as more of the same effort to cover this up.

The trolls seem to forget who was ferociously pressing the Bush administration to close Gitmo.

AprilApple said...

Ann Alhouse asks:
"Why was Stevens targeted, why didn't our government protect him, why don't they want these questions explored, why are they merging his assassination with more generic clownery about a YouTube video?

We don't have a real media. We have Democratic Party operatives with bylines.

We don't have honest intellectual curiosity anymore. We have Democratic Party operatives with bylines.

The media aren't simply in the tank; they are openly working on behalf of Obama's campaign.

antiphone said...

Some of us are actually still dedicated to the truth.

What a joke. You're trying to start a conspiracy theory because you have unanswered questions. You're not investigating anything, you're too lazy to do any research. You're just blowing smoke.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

I'm already skeptical about efforts to cover up the story, and you're saying don't talk about it?

There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up, they clearly got some of their facts wrong but how surprising is this.


First, it was a movie trailer and now, suddenly, after the world figured out it had Al Qaeda's fingerprints all over it, the Administration finally admits it was "self-evident" it was a terrorist hit and it's not a cover-up of the failure of Zero foreign policy and a failure of him as President and a human being?

That's very good.

Won't work, but it's very good.

phx said...

And who are YOU, AReasonableMan? You are a pseudonym created a year ago, with no information in your profile.

Your papers, please.

Ann Althouse said...

There was an assassination.

Focus, people.

There was an assassination and our government is behaving in a way that does not align with the experience of an assassination.

Where is the outrage?

TosaGuy said...

26 states reported unemployment hikes on Friday. But I guess the media would rather concentrate on events from last spring.

shiloh said...

"And who are YOU, AReasonableMan? You are a pseudonym created a year ago, with no information in your profile. I don't know what your function is, but you are doing the very thing I am criticizing here."

hmm, does Althouse have a problem w/free speech. Maybe she should get the FBI/CIA to investigate ARM.

Attacking the messenger instead of the message notwithstanding!

Paddy O said...

"People were killed under fire."

People were killed. Statistics and unfortunates.

No, that's not the point. A US Ambassador was killed, the representative of the United States in Libya.

He was not an unfortunate tourist, wrong place, wrong time. He wasn't a soldier who knowingly put his life in harms way.

"the country is still recovering from a civil war, it seems unlikely that there is much in the way of functional press and finally this was literally the fog of war."

Precisely! That's precisely why it is curious how little protection the Ambassador had.

AprilApple said...

Nakoula is the scapegoat.
Do not kid yourselves. He still is the official MSM/DNC scapegoat.

Any mainstream media reports I hear still insist that stupid poorly made You-tube video is the undisputed source for all anti-American violent protests in the ME.

edutcher said...

The problem with free speech is the little animal's, as he seems to be allergic to it.

TosaGuy said...

Outrage is for people who have morals.

Judge the administration and media accordingly.

Pogo said...

There is something evil about trying to make one man's death a statistic, not a tragedy.

Ann Althouse said...

"Your papers, please."

Bullshit.

I am not the government.

I am a citizen looking for the truth. I'm encountering a person who enters my place, under a disguise, and says we should not look into the issue of truth I am seeking to explore.

I express my mistrust of this person. That's always an issue with pseudonyms. There are advantages and disadvantages. You can use them, but they impair your credibility.

You can try to build credibility intrinsically, through a series of comments under that pseudonym, but that credibility is subject to debate, and I am keeping up the pressure in that debate, especially since AReasonableMan is doing the very thing this post is criticizing: saying don't talk about the Stevens assassination.

Synova said...

I'd heard that the two American former SF guys that were killed weren't assigned to Stevens. They happened to be in the area because they were attached to some other US organization, figured out something bad was happening, went to help and were killed. Well, two against how many, that makes sense they were killed.

So essentially, Stevens and Smith had NO security. None.

And we're supposed to believe when we're told that there is nothing to see here, move along, the consulate had the security it was supposed to have and they were guarding against IED's and that *worked* so...

And our resident liberal mouthbreathers can't even admit that this is more of a story than Romney explaining that those who feel government should pay of their lives won't vote for him, just like they won't admit that Obama saying that Egypt is not an ally is far worse than Romney suggesting that England made some mistakes with the Olympics.

The unreality of it is shocking.

edutcher said...

TosaGuy said...

26 states reported unemployment hikes on Friday. But I guess the media would rather concentrate on events from last spring.

Why do you think we have this assault from the Left now?

Consider this quote:

"Friday's report will be closely analyzed for its potential impact on the presidential campaign, especially in 12 swing states that are expected to be key battlegrounds.

Those 12 are Colorado, Florida, Iowa, Michigan, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Wisconsin.

Colorado, Florida, Michigan, Nevada, and North Carolina have jobless rates above the national average, which was 8.1% in August."

phx said...

I'm encountering a person who enters my place, under a disguise

I'm under a "disguise" too. I guess that's why people like AReasonableMan and me can't be trusted.

It's scary how clever we are.

creeley23 said...

There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up

That's not the point that Ann is making, which you are conveniently obtuse to.

It's the fantastic effort by the Obama administration and the media to distract from the cruel murder of our ambassador under suspicious circumstances. That is an act of war among other things. It is also the collapse of Obama's Mideast policies.

Meanwhile Obama is chatting with Letterman, hangin' with Jay-Z and Beyonce and the talking heads are going on that the Romney campaign is dead like nothing happened.

This is surreal and disquieting. I don't think much of the media but I wouldn't have imagined they could move so blatantly into Orwell's 1984 territory.

Howard said...

Based on what I have read about Chris Stevens, it seems possible that he did not want a huge security detail following him to outposts like Benghazi. He seemed to be one who goes native using a low profile and courage to be more effective.

Threats are received all the time, it's not always clear in the fog of real time what now seems obvious from the comfort of our homes.

Getting up a big blame-game machine while the situation is still in flux makes no sense. The republican base, epitomized by Instapundit, is showing an embarrassment of hysteria and hissy-fits.

I'm glad we have a cold hearted, detached leader to command with calm.

Hagar said...

What is even odder is that other Libyans now are rallying and protesting for Stevens and the US and against the militia, and the Administration and the leading MSM do not seem to want to hear about that.

EDH said...

Ironically, Stevens seems to be one of those rare diplomats who was able to navigate the partisan divide to do a job in service to his country. Your average hack appointee would probably not allow himself to be exposed to the kind of risk he was willing to face.

"Attempts to politicize this attack are unlikely to go well for Republicans."

I don't think the Goldilockian criticisms of Bush from the left carry much weight any more. "Bush held people without due process, but he let them off too easy."

Wasn't this "mastermind" released to the custody of Ghaddafi, who seemed to have kept him under wraps? And pray tell after the actions of whose administration was he unleashed?
__________

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Thursday she was forming a panel to investigate the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, that killed Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other U.S. officials.

The panel, whose creation is generally required by law when someone is killed or seriously injured at a U.S. mission abroad, will be chaired by Thomas Pickering, a retired diplomat who served as U.S. ambassador to Russia, India, Israel, Nigeria, El Salvador, Jordan and at the U.S. Mission to the United Nations.

Such panels, made up of four people chosen by the secretary of state and one by the U.S. intelligence community, are charged with writing a report on whether security systems and procedures were adequate, and they might recommend improvements.

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said... WHO did the killing? Trace all the lines. You blandness on this topic is EXACTLY the problem I'm pointing at.

At least according to reports from Fox News, “the deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, was directly tied to Al Qaeda — with a former Guantanamo detainee involved.”
Frontpage follows up:
Sufyan Ben Qumu, a Libyan, is the former Gitmo detainee. He is one of a circle of former detainees released from Gitmo who have returned to jihad against the United States.
Qumu was released in 2007 and handed over to the Libyan authorities who were supposed to keep him in jail there. They did not. Ironically, the Qaddafi regime released him as part of its attempt to reconcile with Islamists. Obviously, Qaddafi’s efforts at reconciliation did not work out so well for the late dictator. But the return of Qumu and other Gitmo alumni to jihad has not worked out very well for us either.

These reports may be wrong, but again, it is not a country in which we can have much of a working intelligence operation. We were in a cold war with them for more than twenty years.

Synova said...

"There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up,"

You're hysterical.

antiphone said...

I am a citizen looking for the truth.

Well you ain't looking very hard. Too busy being outraged.

Curious George said...

"AReasonableMan said...
There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up, they clearly got some of their facts wrong but how surprising is this. There cannot be many US personnel in the country, the country is still recovering from a civil war, it seems unlikely that there is much in the way of functional press and finally this was literally the fog of war. People were killed under fire."

What a steaming pile. They knew the security in place and plan prior to the attack. The whole fucking world short of Obama and dopes like you knew this was an AQ attack. And the adminstration did not take a "wait and see" position, they took a "it's all about a movie" position. And failing that, they then took a "wait and see" attitude to kick this can down the road.

Obama's only concern for Chris Stevens is how the aftermath will effect his reelection.

Hagar said...

@phx,
AReasonableMan goes far beyond what you are doing. With him, there is reasonable to be suspicious.

Curious George said...

"AReasonableMan said...
There is no evidence that the Obama administration is trying to cover this up, they clearly got some of their facts wrong but how surprising is this. There cannot be many US personnel in the country, the country is still recovering from a civil war, it seems unlikely that there is much in the way of functional press and finally this was literally the fog of war. People were killed under fire."

What a steaming pile. They knew the security in place and plan prior to the attack. The whole fucking world short of Obama and dopes like you knew this was an AQ attack. And the adminstration did not take a "wait and see" position, they took a "it's all about a movie" position. And failing that, they then took a "wait and see" attitude to kick this can down the road.

Obama's only concern for Chris Stevens is how the aftermath will effect his reelection.

Synova said...

"Such panels, made up of four people chosen by the secretary of state and one by the U.S. intelligence community, are charged with writing a report on whether security systems and procedures were adequate, and they might recommend improvements."

So they don't investigate the death, they investigate the security procedures.

Okay then.

I can save them the trouble. NO, the security was not adequate, even though we've been told that no one messed up and all of the procedures put in place were followed.

pm317 said...

Now you're talking!

It is an effort to hide Obama's failures to charm his Muslim friend and failure to provide security and manage diplomatic and day to day affairs in hot spots. Obama and co are loathe to call the Libya massacre a terror attack. If they did that would be one more item to add to Obama’s failures — that is, he failed to charm the Muslims abroad about what a tremendous guy he is that they should all have given up clinging bitterly to their guns and religion at his begging directive.

Shouting Thomas said...

Althouse, I think your attitude needs some re-arranging in some minor ways too. You've been outspoken the Nakoula is "inept."

The ultimate measure of the effectiveness of communication is the result that it produces.

This guy has blown the lid off the contradictions inherent in Islam and in the U.S. efforts to appease Islam.

He's laid the truth bare.

You may not like his methods or his stye, but the guy succeeded magnificently.

I applaud Nakoula for his courage and artist impact.

Give him credit where credit is due. He's thrown a hell of punch.

Synova said...

And FOX is reporting what happened and who is involved even though it (according to some) reflects badly on the Bush administration (and thus, Romney).

It's nice to know we have a single news agency left in the United States.

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
I am keeping up the pressure in that debate, especially since AReasonableMan is doing the very thing this post is criticizing: saying don't talk about the Stevens assassination.


I am very definitely not saying, don't talk about the Stevens assassination. I am explaining why it has not become highly politicized. A politics driven media frenzy is not the same thing as discussing an issue. This is a tragedy. The ambassador seemed to be a genuinely good willed man doing his best both for US interests and the Libyan's. Reports on this attack are not going to have the neat resolution of an episode of Murder, She Wrote.

Synova said...

Meanwhile US taxpayers are funding advertisements to run on Pakistan television explaining how terrible Obama and Hillary think the You-tube movie is.

That's not more news than Romney explaining that people who expect government support won't vote for him?

Ann Althouse said...

"And the adminstration did not take a "wait and see" position, they took a "it's all about a movie" position. And failing that, they then took a "wait and see" attitude to kick this can down the road."

Yeah, go back and watch those Susan Rice performances on last Sunday's talk shows. She had her talking points and she enunciated them over and over. It was all about that video. It was a spontaneous mob. They wrote a story and they told it strictly and earnestly. We know that story is wrong. Why did they tell it? So desperately too.

Howard said...

For all his faults, Bush did a great kicking the can down the road in Libya. The current situation is still in flux. No reason to panic. I'm sure the Ozero admin has made tons of mistakes. It's impossible not to. They are keeping the eye on the ball and not getting in a panic in the middle of a very complex chess game. When we start hearing cries of panic from the National Security adults on the Republican side, it might be time to raise red flags.

Panic and blame-gaming in the middle of a fight is no way to win.

Cedarford said...

Ann Althouse is taking one event from the last week and a half of mass protests in a dozen Muslim countries - then sort of stating Nakoula and his incitement against the Prophet was tangential - because it does not appear to be the root cause of the worst incident.

While there is lots of blame om Muzzies acting like animals while the "Vast Majority" of peaceful good Muslims stand by and allow the radicals to have their way....the national security harm goes past a single Al Qaeda attack in Bengazi.

The Obamites were incorrect in blaming the deaths in Libya on the movie, but what of?

1. Mob attacks, burning the flag in Egypt?
2. Mob attacks, burning flag, vehicles, and an outbuilding in Tunisia.
3. Mobs in Sudan, denial of supplemental Marines for the Embassy, and announcement by leadership there that the US had to apologize for the film?
4. Thousands laying seige to the embassy in Indonesia?
5. Thousands marching to the embassy in Istanbul?
6. Mob attacks, US flag burned, 8 dead in Yemen?
7. 3,000 demonstrators surrounding the embassy in Malaysia.
8. Attacks on US, NATO compounds in Afghanistan. Announcement all patrols with Afghans were ending because of the threat?
9. Etc.
10. Etc.
11. Pakistan, of course. More flag burnings, 17 dead.

Synova said...

" I am explaining why it has not become highly politicized. A politics driven media frenzy is not the same thing as discussing an issue. This is a tragedy. "

You're spinning why it hasn't become NEWS, not why it hasn't become politicized. News agencies aren't reporting on it, even though this is huge. Why not?

Zach said...

I assumed that the 47 percent video was released precisely to change the subject. Am I wrong?

The video was made in May, presumably with the intention of being released. That means that someone has had four months to release it -- or, more specifically, not to release it. The remarks are embarrassing, but not so embarrassing as to fundamentally change the election or haunt Romney the way the affirmative action issue is haunting Warren.

Given that the video didn't surface immediately, you would expect it was being saved for an October surprise, or some other period where the Obama campaign wanted to bury a few news cycles. And sure enough, it was released in an absolutely horrible week for Obama, and did change the subject for a couple of days.

MaggotAtBroad&Wall said...

It's my understanding the video was uploaded in July. When I viewed it at the time of the attacks sometime around 9/11, the counter indicated only about 30,000 had viewed it. Presumably, nearly all of those were Americans.

It's an insult to the average American's intelligence to blame that stupid video for what happened. 4 diplomats were assassinated and the U.S. suffered galaxy wide humiliation when our nation's flags were torn down from our embassies and replaced with the flag representing our sworn enemy, Al Qaida.

Then for the administration to scapegoat the man who made the video and not defend free speech is outrageous. Glenn Reynolds had it exactly right very early on. If Obama is not going to defend the First Amendment to the Constitution, he has breached his oath and has no business being President and should resign.

shiloh said...

When Stevens' family start questioning the killing of Ambassador Stevens then I'll start payin' attention. Althouse, not so much!

Much like Pat Tillman's family was giving a song and dance by Rummy and the U.S. Army re: their son's death that eventually made C-in-C Bush43 and cheney look really, really bad.

We now continue w/the ongoing "investigation" of Ambassador Stevens' death which I'm sure is not giving any credence to anything posted at this blog.

Howard said...

Blaming the movie and throwing the meth-head film-maker under the bus is a tactic. This is war.

"I'm not saying we won't get our hair mussed"

People ruled by emotion should not rule.

Ann Althouse said...

"This is a tragedy. The ambassador seemed to be a genuinely good willed man doing his best both for US interests and the Libyan's. Reports on this attack are not going to have the neat resolution of an episode of Murder, She Wrote."

It is not a tragedy. It is not a story that must be unknowable. It is an ongoing conflict with terrorism that our government is dealing with in some way that we as citizens need to understand.

Whether Stevens was a nice, well-meaning person is quite beside the point!

I emphatically reject your effort to squelch this discussion.

Synova said...

"The Obamites were incorrect in blaming the deaths in Libya on the movie, but what of?"

The 9-11 actions were successful. Smelling weakness and a willingness to buy air time to apologize with sub-titles about how bad the movie is, #2-11 are opportunities taken.

And also, not news.

Not compared to Romney explaining that people who expect government support won't vote for him.

Shouting Thomas said...

In other words, what Nakoula did, in his clunky, amateur way, was precisely what Dylan did when he wrote "The Chimes of Freedom!"

God does not always send the messenger in a form that is agreeable.

phx said...

For all his faults, Bush did a great kicking the can down the road in Libya. The current situation is still in flux. No reason to panic. I'm sure the Ozero admin has made tons of mistakes. It's impossible not to. They are keeping the eye on the ball and not getting in a panic in the middle of a very complex chess game. When we start hearing cries of panic from the National Security adults on the Republican side, it might be time to raise red flags.

Panic and blame-gaming in the middle of a fight is no way to win.


Man it gave me a chill to see a reasonable post in this thread.

Ann Althouse said...

"When Stevens' family start questioning the killing of Ambassador Stevens then I'll start payin' attention."

And 9/11 was properly dealt with by following what the families of the victims wanted.

Sorrow. Healing. Closure. Empathy.

Bullshit.

creeley23 said...

I am very definitely not saying, don't talk about the Stevens assassination. I am explaining why it has not become highly politicized. A politics driven media frenzy is not the same thing as discussing an issue. This is a tragedy.

No, it's an assassination, it's an act of war, and it's the collapse of current American foreign policies. It's very, very serious.

We are not looking for a politicized media frenzy. We want these matters dealt with in an adult, sober, and complete manner and as transparently as possible.

Of course, you went for the politics immediately.

phx said...

I emphatically reject your effort to squelch this discussion.

Cripes, disagreeing is now "an effort to squelch" discussion??

Conservatives.

Synova said...

"I assumed that the 47 percent video was released precisely to change the subject. Am I wrong?"

You're exactly right.

The timing of the release of the 47% video was controlled by the DNC who had it for a month.

Howard said...

Thomas, shouting like a hysterical yenta over spilled milk:

What an idiot. Everyone knows worship of the man in the sky is silly. Everyone knows that Islam is the most extreme version of these silly cults. The meth-head film-maker did not blow the lid off of anything unless you are a clueless tool.

Shouting Thomas said...

So, the question is...

"Do we stand on the side of freedom?"

Freedom is inherently chaotic, and it produces unsatisfactory, as well as satisfactory results.

Shouting Thomas said...

Dylan took plenty of drugs, too.

AprilApple said...

Folks - this is about the coordinated effort by the media and the president and his administration to blame ONE guy - Nakoula - and one obscure youtube video - for the deaths of an American Ambassador and 3 navy Seals and for all of the riots in the ME. All while the facts show an entirely different reality.

I do not see the media or the administration climbing down from their bullshit.

shiloh said...

"Man it gave me a chill to see a reasonable post in this thread."

This is a typical Althouse thread w/a self-fulfilling prophecy ie

"I'm pretty sure Obama owes Nakoula an apology."

Althouse appeasing her flock w/this thread will give her "concrete evidence" that she's 100% sure Obama owes Nakula an apology.

A+B=C w/no variations allowed!

Shouting Thomas said...

And, the "yenta" bit is pretty funny, too.

I've worked with Rick Danko of the Band, and with more than a few of Dylan's sidemen from one incarnation or another.

One of those sidemen told me this story.

He was really getting into a song Dylan was performing onstage, and he felt the urge to chime in. So, he started singing harmony.

Dylan turned to him and said: "There's only room for one whining yenta in this band!"

The Crack Emcee said...

Everybody did - it's a game you're playing. There's a great line in "The Master" where the cult leader tells his new follower "your memories are not welcome" that sums the phenomena up completely:

Listen to what we're saying from now on!

Another great movie line is "Don't pay any attention to that man behind the curtain!"

You guys are being partisan - not telling the truth. The truth is the least welcome aspect of an election to those who have picked a side and want to win. What's good for the country is secondary, what's wrong with the candidates means nothing - it's all about controlling the narrative and those who buy into it - even if the narrative is bogus.

There will be no "winners" here - everyone will be a loser because reality doesn't play favorites:

It is the only "master" we have,...

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
I emphatically reject your effort to squelch this discussion.


I am definitely not trying to squelch any discussion. I don't think there is a conspiracy here. The most obvious conclusion is that they initially screwed up and drew incorrect conclusions with inadequate information. They seem to have conflated the Egyptian situation, where they had more information, with Libya. I think that they can be fairly criticized for this.

Synova said...

"They are keeping the eye on the ball and not getting in a panic in the middle of a very complex chess game."

An assumption we've no evidence for.

Obama dealt with the panicky disaster directly before the 2008 election the same way... but not by keeping an eye on the ball. He went about his business, let others panic, and got everyone to admire his coolness.

Will it work this time? I won't say it won't. People seem to want to buy it wholesale, even though he hasn't indicated that he's doing anything. He *must* be, right?

He did the same thing for the economy. Stay cool, let it work itself out. EVENTUALLY the stimulus will work.

People love it. It might work. And by "work" I mean... get people to vote for him.

But really, if it doesn't get better soon, and there is no reason to think it will, does the DNC have another secret video to release?

Shouting Thomas said...

Nobody would be pissed off at Nakoula if his video hadn't thrown a killer roundhouse punch!

antiphone said...

Dylan took plenty of drugs, too.

Uh, oh, the senile regulars are waking up.

phx said...

Dylan turned to him and said: "There's only room for one whining yenta in this band!"

I read that at one point Dylan put it in the contract for his sidemen that they couldn't look at him when he joined them onstage.

cryptical said...

I wonder how usual it is for an American Ambassador to travel 1000km without a security detail in a country that's recently had a revolution? I'd guess it doesn't happen in France, much less a 3rd world country like Libya.

One theory I've seen discussed was that he was looking into the location of American weapons that were given to the rebels that are still floating around out there.

That'd get the Democrats in full coverup mode. "Obama authorized the disbursment of advanced American weapons that ended up in the hands of Muslim extremists".

That won't play well in Peoria.

shiloh said...

"Bullshit"

"Bullshit"

Damn, Althouse must have got up on the wrong side of the bed unhappy that Willard's ship is quickly sinkin'.

ok, ok, now I'm attacking the messenger w/a deflection ...

oola said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

Today some cleric offered $100,000 for the murder of this American who made a movie.

Take a look at which side you are aiding why, and what that says about you.

Shouting Thomas said...

Uh, oh, the senile regulars are waking up.

This "senile regular" played a gig last night in front of an audience of 500, and next weekend I'll be playing at Bethel, at the site of the original 69 Woodstock Festival.

Yeah, I'm an Old Dawg. Old Dawgz are the best!

wef said...

But, but, Nakoula was soooo irresponsible!

We heard so many reasonable and matronly people say so.

elkh1 said...

"Who wanted that forgetting and why?"

Obama wanted that forgetting and you know why.

The Crack Emcee said...

I am a citizen looking for the truth.

Now if you'd only stick with that - actually follow where that leads and leave the individuals behind - you'd do more posts that would REALLY make us think, instead of this silly back-and-forth that passes for a salon.

Instapundit said there's an Obama cult - what's that about?

Romney's cult is persecuting people - why is hardly anybody talking about it - and what does it mean, about him, his "church," and for the country?

"The truth shall set you free" used to mean something in this country.

I say it still does.

But only if we mean it - do you mean it, Ann?

antiphone said...

This "senile regular" played a gig last night in front of an audience of 500...

Who gives a shit?

Shouting Thomas said...

Who gives a shit?

I do. Suck on the jealousy.

I can handle it.

Ann Althouse said...

"I am definitely not trying to squelch any discussion. I don't think there is a conspiracy here. The most obvious conclusion is that they initially screwed up and drew incorrect conclusions with inadequate information. They seem to have conflated the Egyptian situation, where they had more information, with Libya. I think that they can be fairly criticized for this."

Why is that conclusion "the most obvious"? Because we already believe that the Obama administration is incompetent? Because it's the talking point that is most useful now for the Obama administration.

Who are you to set the ground rules here for what is "fair" in criticizing the administration? Why don't we get to look inside the box you are so intent on closing?

Your intense interest in constraining and guiding comments in this thread has been noticed and pointed out by me repeatedly in this thread.

I don't buy anything you say. In fact, whenever you point one way, I look in the opposite direction.

oola said...

OMG, what hypocrisy! Where was the outrage, when it appeared that it was solely the movie that sparked the demonstration and riot? Most people, including I thought it was NOT solely the movie that caused the deaths. No one seems to understand that it doesnt take much to get these terrorits to recruit people to blow themselves up or join them.

No one seemed to care all that much about the victims and the safety of Americans over there, all I heard was "FREE SPEECH, brownshirts oh poor Nakoula", the martyr. Sickening. The focus on Nakoula and the overblown fixation with free speech politicized the attacks, the focus was off questions about how this could occur, actually no one but a few seemed to give any concern for the safety of any American over there in the region.

People forget the attack happened amidst demonstrations/protests. The perpetrators of the murders were able to attack under the cover of masses of people at the Consulate and Embassy.

Howard said...

Synovia:

Do you have evidence of panic from the Whitehouse.

They sent in the Marines.

Now a popular pro-US uprising of native Libyans drove the terrorists from their lair.

That's some pretty solid evidence that Ozero's team is taking care of business... or at least letting the situation to unfold without being too heavy handed.

Just because our Host chooses to bite on the miss-direction does not mean that you have to be fooled by *magic*.

shiloh said...

"Because we already believe that the Obama administration is incompetent?"

Indeed, your 90/10 con blog points that out daily. Again, a self-fulfilling prophecy!

antiphone said...


I don't buy anything you say. In fact, whenever you point one way, I look in the opposite direction.

That's just a knee jerk reaction and it certainly doesn't rebut anything.

MartyH said...

The short answer: it would help Mitt by bringing up Jimmy Carter parallels during the Obama reelection campaign. Thus, much of the press will not touch it.

If Stevens had been killed in a spontaneous riot, then that is one thing. Since he was assassinated by an organized, Islamist, anti-American foe in an oil rich, anarchic country where we helped depose an unpopular autocratic ruler, the obvious comparison is to Iran during the Carter years, when our Embassy was overrun by an organized, Islamist, anti-American foe in an oil rich, anarchic country where we helped depose an unpopular autocratic ruler.

Obviously President Obama does not want to go there; if the press went after this aggressively, then other obvious Jimmy Carter parallels would arise: the weak economy, America's diminished role in the world, etc.

Tim said...

"I am concerned about the ongoing national security question. Why was Stevens targeted, why didn't our government protect him, why don't they want these questions explored, why are they merging his assassination with more generic clownery about a YouTube video?"

The similarities to "Fast and Furious" are, I think, informative here.

Like "Fast and Furious," Steven's death is an inconvenient truth to the Obama Administration, regardless of the details.

They recognize it as such, and so, instead of responding to it as a problem of governance, they respond to it as a political problem.

To some degree, to be fair, given the timing and the season, almost any, or even all, previous administrations would have certainly based their response with some political calculation.

But with this gang, it is all they have. Everything is viewed through the prism of "how does this reflect on Obama?"

It's like a clique of high school cheerleaders more concerned about appearances than right or wrong. These people are from the shallow ends of the experience and ethical pools (predictably so for anyone who thought it through carefully in '08, btw); their first instinct, from top to bottom, is to play the political angles; small but critical details concerning Stevens and the events in the Middle East, very likely embarrassing to the Administration, are dismissed, glossed over, or even casually lied about to deflect blame, responsibility from Obama.

That Stevens' death is dismissed as some accident of a crazed mob overreacting to a stupid Youtube video is just a cost of keeping Obama in office.

Everyone associated with this effort to not even look for the truth, to dismiss the truth, whether they be in the Foreign Service, the Administration, Congress, or the media, should realize exactly who they are carrying water for: a man who, under similar conditions, to do exactly the same thing to them were they murdered in Obama's employ.

So all you Obama voters, post your picture pledging your allegiance to your president at Obama For All; it is the least you can do. Some died for Obama, chances are, your picture will be enough.

Roger J. said...

The thread seems to have picked up a few new sockpuppets, or Mobys--I can never tell what the definitions are.

Howard said...

You guys need to see what the OWS crowd thinks of Obama. Jimmy Carter, my ass.

Among other things, since taking office Obama has:
- Signed the NDAA into law - making it legal to assassinate Americans w/o trial
- Personally oversees a 'Secret Kill List'
- Waged war on Libya without congressional approval
- Started a covert, drone war in Yemen
- Escalated the proxy war in Somalia
- Escalated the CIA drone war in Pakistan
- Will maintain a presence in Iraq even after "ending" war
- Sharply escalated the war in Afghanistan
- Secretly deployed US special forces to 75 countries
- Sold $30 billion of weapons to the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia
- Signed an agreement for 7 military bases in Colombia
- Opened a military base in Chile
- Touted nuclear power, even after the disaster in Japan
- Opened up deepwater oil drilling, even after the BP disaster
- Did a TV commercial promoting "clean coal"
- Defended body scans and pat-downs at airports
- Signed the Patriot Act extension into law
- Deported a modern-record 1.5 million immigrants
- Continued Bush's rendition program

The Crack Emcee said...

Ann Althouse,

And who are YOU, AReasonableMan? You are a pseudonym created a year ago, with no information in your profile. I don't know what your function is, but you are doing the very thing I am criticizing here.

I mentioned this, here, just last night:

The behavior of anonymous commenters who spend all their time trying to distract from the facts, evidence, logic, and anything resembling the truth.

You give them links - they ignore them.

They blab away, with nothing to back it up, insisting their opinions are all that's needed to win the day.

Snark, more often than not, passes for reasoned argument - like this is a loony bin instead of a discussion led by a professor.

I know you can't police it, and I'm not asking you to, but more of an adherence to truth would go a long way:

Everybody disagrees on my blog - I wouldn't have it any other way - but reality's parameters are set,...

antiphone said...

The thread seems to have picked up a few new sockpuppets, or Mobys--I can never tell what the definitions are.

What are you, the hall monitor?

B said...

Althouse said There aren't that many assassinations of American officials.

No. There haven't been. The Iranians did not kill Americans in their takeover of our embassy much less assassinate officials after the embassy fell.

This is a new level of engagement and that is what makes the events leading up to this and ESPECIALLY the events after so important to understand.

Althouse saidI have never seen anything like this one, where we as a people are encouraged to dilute the incident with all these other events of a much more mundane variety.

I have though in a reverse way. It happened from 2002 to 2008. Politicians and media were concentrating on and even fabricating out of whole cloth incidents that should have been at the minimum mundane if not trivial during wartime while diluting successes that would have encouraged at home and discouraged our enemies. We lost a lot of good men and women because of it. The Iraqis lost a lot more.

Althouse saidAn assassination should stand apart -- clear and shocking and in need of precise investigation.

Without the Fourth Estate standing on their own hind legs and asking the real questions here, there is no pressure on the administration to investigate. As long as the Fourth Estate actively obfuscates as they've done the last week, the administration need only wait it out.

For 6 years I watched what I considered domestic enemies cause far more damage to American interests and cost far more lives than the most malicious spin of the Nakoula video could be blamed for, while understanding and accepting that the concept of free speech both allowed it and protected it. That's the way it is in this country and I wouldn't have it any other way. In one week, I've seen a complete reversal where now free speech is not only under attack, but is being blamed for events by the same leftist mindset that would never have allowed their own actions for 6 years be so characterized.

Hell, I saw it sold here on this blog by a couple of reprehensible individuals and so consistently. stridently, and illogically that I stopped reading the threads in disgust.

What will rankle the most will be when the ambassador's funeral is held and the usual suspects on the political end cry crocodile tears while the media speaks in hushed tones about how he died over a video. The most powerful statement the ambassador's family could make after both losing him to political incompetence and/or calculation and seeing his death kicked to the side by political expediency and media complicity would be to refuse any official government or media presence at his funeral and clearly state why.

oola said...

Roger, oola is me Allie. I'm using this moniker and avatar for the time being.

Roger J. said...

antiphone: as we quakers say: fuck thee

garage mahal said...

Biting into a raisin cookie cloaked as a chocolate chip cookie is why I have trust issues.

furious_a said...

The Libyan people, doing the job our President and Secretary of State can't...or won't.

shiloh said...

"- Signed the NDAA into law - making it legal to assassinate Americans w/o trial
- Personally oversees a 'Secret Kill List'
- Waged war on Libya without congressional approval
- Started a covert, drone war in Yemen
- Escalated the proxy war in Somalia
- Escalated the CIA drone war in Pakistan
- Will maintain a presence in Iraq even after "ending" war
- Sharply escalated the war in Afghanistan
- Secretly deployed US special forces to 75 countries
- Sold $30 billion of weapons to the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia
- Signed an agreement for 7 military bases in Colombia
- Opened a military base in Chile
- Touted nuclear power, even after the disaster in Japan
- Opened up deepwater oil drilling, even after the BP disaster
- Did a TV commercial promoting "clean coal"
- Defended body scans and pat-downs at airports
- Signed the Patriot Act extension into law
- Deported a modern-record 1.5 million immigrants
- Continued Bush's rendition program"

hmm, it appears Obama has out neocon'd the neocons!

but, but, but has there been another 9/11 attack?

Roger J. said...

Miss Allie--I figured that out :) I was a devout reader of the allie oop cartoon.

Roger J. said...

has there been another 9/11 attack? ask the Ambassador and 3 of his staff.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Here's a question: The Administration was quick to repudiate the Cairo embassy's craven apology. But if they've repudiated the Islamabad embassy's craven apology, I have yet to hear about it. Have they?

David said...

"This isn't a sympathy card to the family. This is a demand to know the truth."

Exactly.

I was offended that flags were flown at half staff as a result of these killings. These were war deaths, specially selected high value targets. The lowered flags seemed to me a sign of disrespect.

Do we fly a flag at half staff every time a soldier dies in combat? Do we think that a few sympathetic gestures are the right response? Obama responded with sympathy--or his version of it, not with anger or curiosity. In many ways he is an incurious man, not surprising in a person who thinks he has things figured out. But why does he care so little about this? Is it really just distraction because of the election?

Yet there is more than lack of curiosity at work here. The truth is being actively suppressed. The government has shut down all formal dissemination of information pending the FBI "investigation." Want to bet whether the investigation will conclude before the election? Even U.S. Senators are being fed useless pap in their briefings.

The President's Press Secretary and his UN Ambassador (why is she involved in this at all?) are trotting out versions that everyone knows are wrong, or at least very incomplete. They are full of answers, not questions. And the answers are bullshit.

And so far the press plays along. Are they not insulted with the crap that Jay Carney and Susan Rice are feeding them?

I have assumed all along that there is a strong urge to obscure and cloud the facts simply because the Secretary of State and the President do not want their incompetence revealed.

Could there be more here? I remember thinking that the Watergate accusations were highly implausible. Why would a President or his senior staff take risks like that? How wrong I was.

TWM said...

"but, but, but has there been another 9/11 attack?"

Yeah, Ambassador Stevens was killed during it.

ricpic said...

Millions noted that Obama flew off to Vegas to fundraise the day after Ambassador Stevens was murdered. No memory hole games can erase that memory, which will be a factor on November 6.

Cedarford said...

Recent events in the ME need to be disaggregated into various areas, rather than dwell on one death as the only thing of note.

1. An Al Qaeda attack on the US in Libya throws water on the delusional Hollywood idea that Obama defeated Al Qaeda by leading the mission to bring bin Laden to Justice.

2. From Morocco through Indonesia, the US is now the country that sanctions Prophet blaspheming. Hiding behind the 1st Amendment means diddly as a defense abroad. Strategically, this is enormously damaging. Use of Muslim nation bases, airspace overflight, and other assistance if we feel the need to take out Iran's nuclear program is now far more problematic.

3. The Arab Spring is as an object failure as Bush&The Neocons "nation-building", or the Great Petraeus's "joint Surge" in Afghanistan.

4. Hillary got slapped by a 2X4 about the likelihood that if Assad falls in Syria as human rights activists want, the replacement would be a radical Islamist regime far worse than Egypts.

5. China and Russia are licking their chops about the damage the US, the nation that sanctions Prophet blasphemery, has taken. Our influence, after Bush-Obama, is now at a nadir.

Our bestest and most special friend and indispensible Ally Israel is looking pretty isolated and facing a declining America - in power and influence - that is sick of unending wars that were never in America's own vital interests.

Hagar said...

I think Althouse may be hinting that the reason for the Administration wishing to ignore the deaths of Stevens and the 3 security men (whatever they were assigned to) is that Stevens was gay as has been rumored.
I doubt that - at least directly - but I don't think Obama's people actually know or understand much about "the Muslim World," and they may just be going on what they get from watching NBC and 60 Minutes here at home.

However, while I don't necessarily think we should go all Mongolian about this, it is a fact that one of our legacies has been attacked and demolished, and one of our ambassadors has been murdered. Those are not minor matters, but acts of war and need a much more serious response than we have seen so far.

pm317 said...

The Obots on this board should get on with the talking points. I just heard Hillary on Teevee declare it was a terrorist attack and that they would go after the perpetrators with all their force.

Howard said...

furioua_a

I'm glad that great news has not moved you off the Instapundit narrative. Ozero sent in the Marines to help snuff out the terrorists. However, as Arabs are a very proud people, they want to take their own trash out, so it goes.

That's what smart power looks like. If you want chest thumping, go back to WWF or whatever it is you folks watch in the trailer park.

TWM said...

"Millions noted that Obama flew off to Vegas to fundraise the day after Ambassador Stevens was murdered. No memory hole games can erase that memory, which will be a factor on November 6."

And he was very rested for the trip having gone to bed after being notified about it. Guy needs his beauty sleep . . .

shiloh said...

Roger J.

Ambassador Stevens' unfortunate death happened in Libya. A country in the baby step stage of creating a democracy.

The 9/11 attack attack hit the ((( Pentagon ))) in Washington, DC. If you can't figure out the difference, then no further discussion is needed.

btw, an attack on the Pentagon, how embarrassing!

blessings

furious_a said...

Do you have evidence of panic from the Whitehouse.

Actually, the president went back to sleep after being briefed over an hour after the attack began.

They sent in the Marines.

When seconds count this White House is only 1-1/2 hours away from sending in the Marines.

TWM said...

"Everybody disagrees on my blog - I wouldn't have it any other way - but reality's parameters are set,..."

Oh come on, if you add in a requirement for reality we'd have no one representing the left at all.

Mike and Sue said...

I do not hold Obama responsible for the actions of crazed islamic madmen.

I do hold Obama responsible for lying and misdirection.


If any agency is more shameful than Obama, it may be the negligent media.

AReasonableMan said...

Ann Althouse said...
Your intense interest in constraining and guiding comments in this thread has been noticed and pointed out by me repeatedly in this thread.

I don't buy anything you say. In fact, whenever you point one way, I look in the opposite direction.


For the record, I defended the right of Nikoula Basseley Nikoula to publish his video in previous threads. I am hardly an advocate of government censorship. When his identity was not known, I also suggested that it was likely that he was functioning as a provocateur, which is at least partially true. I think the assumption of a Jewish Israeli identity by the filmmaker was a remarkably provocative thing to do.

Howard said...

pm317

Hillary throwing ashtrays. Time to duck and cover

CWJ said...

I'm with Althouse on this one. It was an assassination. Those who can ought to be piecing together the steps and timeline that allowed it to take place. In addition to the lack of security already mentioned, there are many other seemingly uninvestigated questions. For example, I still don't why he was in Benghazi on 9/11 in the first place. Was he lured there, because the killers were clearly waiting for him. And if so by whom and what was the lure?

TWM said...

"Ambassador Stevens' unfortunate death happened in Libya. A country in the baby step stage of creating a democracy.

The 9/11 attack attack hit the ((( Pentagon ))) in Washington, DC. If you can't figure out the difference, then no further discussion is needed.

btw, an attack on the Pentagon, how embarrassing!

blessings"

It was an attack on American soil which killed Americans. On 9/11. What these things don't count unless there here on home ground? Gotta get the body count up?

phx said...

3. The Arab Spring is as an object failure as Bush&The Neocons "nation-building", or the Great Petraeus's "joint Surge" in Afghanistan.

I don't agree with this. The Arab Spring was inevitable, it's a force that we have had very limited influence on. Our policy seems to be uphold our principles of liberty and democracy as best as we can in whatever limited actions we can take.

antiphone said...


I think Althouse may be hinting that the reason for the Administration wishing to ignore the deaths of Stevens and the 3 security men (whatever they were assigned to) is that Stevens was gay as has been rumored.

Oh yeah, let a thousand conspiracy theories bloom! Just a bunch of concerned citizens seachin' for the truth.

Lem said...

This is a demand to know the truth.

The first thing I posted back when the ambassador was killed was that there should be hearing open hearing to find out what happened.

Another problem is the press is in campaign mode so even if there were hearing I doubt anybody would hear it.

Howard said...

Mike and Sue

Lying and misdirection are bread and butter in war. Thank Gaia we have Men in charge and not chest-thumping chickenhawks and their shrewish bosses.

AllenS said...

Obama and Clinton know for sure, that if they don't say a single thing, or lie their asses off, they'll still have the same percentage of voters that they can count on. Nothing will change that fact.

Do you think that the MSM media cares? They don't care either. They'll talk about how much Romney sucks. Or his dog. Or his charitable contributions. Or this or that. Stevens? He'll soon be forgotten. This they know. Soon enough you'll forget about it too.

Old Dad said...

The President is a talented, but very lazy and incompetent man. That's why he leads from behind. He's too damned lazy to get to the front. He allows and supports fellow incompetents like Eric holder to get Americans killed on the border, and Hillary Clinton to get Americans killed in Libya.

And then he goes to bed--got to rest up for the next fund raiser.

The man doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself.

And don't bother with the racist bullshit.

phx said...

The Republicans screwed up their campaign so now they go trampling into a diplomatic crisis with guns blazing in all directions from the hip.

Blame! Blame! Blame!

oola said...

Allen, how right you are. Soon forgotten. So many here forget we are still at war in the region.

shiloh said...

"Was it something I said?"

It's Obama's fault er the 47% who don't pay taxes or some such nonsense!

Howard said...

That's right, Old Dad

Executives and Rulers of the Free World and other big shots should not delegate.

You guys make this too easy.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

The Benghazis remembered him and chased the militia out of town. That is the most important remembering.

Chip Ahoy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllenS said...

Close to half of the commenters on this blog, appear to not care about the Ambassador.

Cedarford said...

Shouting Thomas said...
Nobody would be pissed off at Nakoula if his video hadn't thrown a killer roundhouse punch!

================
A killer roundhouse punch right into the face of US vital interests.

Quite similar to when the 1st Amendment paragons gave the enemy the huge ammunition of the Abu Ghraib pictures. That was another "killer roundhouse punch"..to the thousands of American casualties that happened in consequence.
Including my step-nephew, who before being taken home with a concussion and blown eardrum from a car bomb that killed 2 friends and amputated limbs on 2 others..was in several firefights in Ramadi after Abu Ghraib photos "energized" the locals. He personally shot a man and a woman rushing him in a home they had gone into, screaming "Abu Ghraib". The man was unarmed, the woman had a knife.

We are in a war with Islam.It will last a long time and hopefully can be kept a Cold War as much as possible. There are hotheads on both sides - radical Islamists and the likes if many Christian Zionists that want it to grow into a full-blown WWIII.
In the meantime, hiding behind the 1st, many like Nakoula are, by consequence of their actions, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The Crack Emcee said...

Why are the ideas, it was an assassination AND the government didn't realize it at first, mutually exclusive?

And why try to sink the government for that - because it's an election year?

That's the same crazy, and unfair, thinking the left used against Bush.

Jesus, people, get a grip.

Does Obama owe someone - or even several someones - an apology? Obviously. But, beyond that, I'm left with only one question:

Whose side are you guys on?

It rarely sounds like America's,...

Paul Zrimsek said...

Blame! Blame! Blame!

We're going to need a different word for what Obama did to Nakoula, seemingly.

Roger J. said...

My friend AllenS makes a good observation. The 4 dead in Libya are only important for the narrative and political calculations. Returning to the Professor's point: what is the truth in this sad event? right now, it appears that not many are interested in the truth; they are interested in the political points that can be scored. Sad

Christopher said...

The trolls seem especially defensive on this one.

The reason the administration and the media (but I repeat myself) have downplayed this is because it was the result of incompetence.

Either this administration didn't think to provide security in an area with known al qaeda sympathizers on 9/11 or they actively chose not to. Either way it completely undercuts the "foreign policy president" meme the Obama campaign was pushing.

So they had a choice. They could have either admitted to incompetence or try and claim that the attacks were the unforeseeable result of some filmmaker.

They chose the latter.

Howard said...

Allen S

That's right. He is dead and no amount of squishy Oprah *care* will bring him back. However, I'm sure he would be quite honored that so many Libyans rose up to run-off his murderers.

Do you think Stevens would want Obama to apologize to Nakoula?

Again, your feminine appeal to emotion is unsettling.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Ann,
There is no outrage from the White House or State Dept. because that would mean acknowledging both the strategic (approach to the Arab and Islam worlds) and tactical errors (specifically the lack of awareness of 9/11, security, etc.) of the administration. And the press doesn't want to dig deep, because they know what they will find.

Old Dad said...

Howard said:

"Executives and Rulers of the Free World and other big shots should not delegate."

Certainly not to incompetent boobs who get Americans killed.

Christopher said...

That should read:

"They could either admit to incompetence or try and claim that the attacks were the unforeseeable result of some filmmaker"

yashu said...

There was an assassination and our government is behaving in a way that does not align with the experience of an assassination.

Where is the outrage?


Stevens's murder was a horrifying event, likely much more horrifying than reported by the administration or American press. (He died of smoke inhalation, really? And was carried from the consulate to the hospital by good samaritans? Those were the early stories we heard from the Dem/MSM, remember, along with 'this is just an angry mob, upset over a "disgusting and reprehensible" youtube video, and things just got out of hand').

Yes, clearly this administration and a compliant media are eliding (in both sense of the word) the singular, shocking event of a US ambassador's murder.

I see two sets of motivations here which overlap.

One, of course, is shamelessly partisan. Objective #1 right now for both the O admin and most of the press is Obama's re-election. I don't think there's a need for me to expand on this: why and how that agenda drives efforts to distract from, obfuscate and conflate this event in Americans' eyes is patent; others here have explained this better than I could. The actual fact of it-- and the admin's subsequent reaction and response, and preceding (lack of) action/ preparation-- is devastating; so its political resonance is potentially devastating too. Like Carter's Iran hostage crisis, coming to seem emblematic of an administration's foreign policy (I'd argue this case is worse)-- unless the media can run interference and collude with the administration's dance of veils before the American people.

When I think of Obama yucking it up in Vegas… again, "yucking" in both senses of the word. Not questioned at all by the media (who meanwhile are grilling Romney). It's nauseating.

For the admin & its media palace guard, this event, the true image of this event, the graphic mental images of the true circumstances of this event, cannot be allowed to take root in Americans' minds.

Which leads me to motivations #2, which are not so much (or not only) partisan as they are ideological, having to do with actual policy. The truth of this event cannot be allowed to take root in American's minds, not just because that would hurt Obama, but because (the O admin & MSM think) it might inflame anti-Muslim sentiment. As ever, the greatest danger, the threat they're concerned about in the aftermath of such a murder is not (more) Islamic terrorism, but (the never occurring but always forebodingly feared surge of) Islamophobia. Cf. the spin surrounding the event of Major Hassan's mass murder.

That such facts would lead to questioning Obama's foreign policy or his views/ analysis/ diagnosis of the world situation (electing Obama would be the M.E. panacea, see) makes this overlap with motivations #1.

One way or another, as far as this admin & the MSM are concerned, Americans can't handle the truth. Better not look under that rock; let's throw rocks at Romney instead.

Chip Ahoy said...

Edited, I had Smith for Stevens, sorry.

It's confusing.

The thing that lingers in my mind is the item about Stevens' last words were written by a gamer explaining his impact on that particular area of gaming. A discussion about a present space game Stevens was playing along with the hidden influence Stevens had on previous games that the writer wanted gamers to know about. And yet Stevens seemed situationally unaware to his own eminent danger, not the political situation he was in, the immediate activity around him of his embassy and the consulate being targeted. He was playing a game online at the time of the attack.

That real-life activity of aligning, infiltrating, setting up attacks, is so much like a game. [A guy in the street said, "I'm tired of those guys in Afghanistan clothes bossing us around] He was the one who set up alignments in the early versions of those games, according to the writer, apparently Smith was the one who innovated the idea of establishing alignments in those games. So this is more than just confusing, it's confounding why Stevens didn't sense that all around him in the real world and if he did sense it, refuse to enter it, that is, knowing himself a target, knowing the date, situationally aware of activity around him, refuse to make the critical move to the little consulate and make another unpredictable move instead.

yashu said...

By the way, who knows, there may very well be good arguments why the O admin doesn't bear responsibility for what happened, or why its chosen response (dramatically apprehending Nakoula for all the world to see; buying ads in Pakistan denouncing a youtube movie, etc.) was judicious, or why the contradictory narratives it pushed don't amount to blatant lying. But I haven't heard them-- because the MSM has failed to even ask the questions, failed to demand a true account or accountability from this admin.

The MSM acts as a buffer between Americans and the truth, and between the O admin and questions about the truth.

phx said...

We're going to need a different word for what Obama did to Nakoula, seemingly.

I'm not aware of anything Obama did to Nakoula.

oola said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shouting Thomas said...

In the meantime, hiding behind the 1st, many like Nakoula are, by consequence of their actions, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The concept of "hiding behind the 1st" is laughable!

Roger J. said...

Allie/oola: I noted today that our fearless elected congress went on holiday until after the election. But your point stands

oola said...

Roger, exactly. I said a couple of days ago that if the Obama administration and Clinton made fatal errors in security of the embassies and consulates then they deserve the fallout. I've been for days now emphasizing that we have Americans there and Coptic Christians , who do NOT need to be put in even greater danger.

I want an investigation, Congressional inquiry, whatever.

Either protect our people or get the hell out of the region entirely.

Stop fixating on Nakoula and his "martyrdom". He gave nothing but a stupid movie. Our American compatriots gave their lives and our troops continue to do so.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm not aware of anything Obama did to Nakoula.

Obama chickened out and tossed Nakoula to the Jihadis.

Can I make it any clearer?

Roger J. said...

BTW Allie/oola--hows your girl doing? hope she is safe and will be coming on soon.

Cedarford said...

phx said...
"3. The Arab Spring is as an object failure as Bush&The Neocons "nation-building", or the Great Petraeus's "joint Surge" in Afghanistan."

I don't agree with this. The Arab Spring was inevitable, it's a force that we have had very limited influence on. Our policy seems to be uphold our principles of liberty and democracy as best as we can in whatever limited actions we can take.

===============
I think we may have more agreement than disagreement. Academics and strategists all agree there is a wave of Islamic Awakening happening all through the Ummah and with unfortunately too many Muslims in the West rejecting secular values and leaders for Islamist values and leaders.

It was inevitable that secular leaders would fall.
The folly of The American Churchill and the Black Messiah..and their minions and enablers like the Neocons and Samantha Power's crowd - was in thinking they could accelerate the process and that in turn, the "liberated, noble, purple-fingered Freedom Lovers" would be ever so grateful to America and it's interests.

Not so, as is so painfully obvious...not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but all the "Obama Arab Spring Projects" now going up in flames of anti-West, anti-Americanism.

Our policies, greatly complicated by fealty to Israel by both Republicans and Democrats..would be best served by distancing ourselves as much as possible from the Great Islamic Awakening, focus on upholding our values in the West rather than try to force them on resentful and humiliated Muslims.

And also to seriously think about the wisdom of importing millions of fast-breeding Islamoids into the West.


Howard said...

Chip

Interesting. Putting theory into practice is difficult. Also, denial is either a great survival tool or a trap that will get you killed. It's easier to be rational and objective in a game environment. The real world is much more messy.

Stevens was a very brave guy.

Roger J. said...

C4: I think you qualify as Hans Morgenthau foreign policy realist--good job

phx said...

Obama chickened out and tossed Nakoula to the Jihadis.

Can I make it any clearer?


It's not clear to me that's what happened. I think yer blowin' smoke out yer ass on that.

yashu said...

PS In my 2nd comment above, I meant to say "...arguments why the O admin doesn't bear any responsibility for what happened." Left out the "any" by error.

Hagar said...

"None so blind as those who do not want to see."

Cedarford said...

Shouting Thomas said...
In the meantime, hiding behind the 1st, many like Nakoula are, by consequence of their actions, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The concept of "hiding behind the 1st" is laughable!

=================
The military people, dealing with thousands of casualties in the wake of CBS releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures globally, did not consider CBS touting itself as a 1st Amendment exemplar that should be praised - that laughable.

Howard said...

C-4

You make a decent case. We need to back off and let the dust settle.

Frackking for Natural Gas can help us get out of Saudia Arabia without tanking our economic engine.

Roger J. said...

I would suggest we look at C4s comment above as a realistic assessment of the world as it is, not as the world we would like it to be. I would hope at some point, our foreign policy would reflect the the realism proffered by C4

Maguro said...

In the meantime, hiding behind the 1st, many like Nakoula are, by consequence of their actions, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

So, in your mind, anything that pisses off the Islamic rage boys in in Benghazi or Karachi is treasonous? That's a fascinating perspective on the idea "giving aid and comfort to the enemy", which has traditionally meant giving, you know, aid and comfort to the enemy, not making movies that piss the enemy off.

yashu said...

Stop fixating on Nakoula and his "martyrdom".

When will you understand that we're not fixating on Nakoula, we're fixating on the First Amendment and threats against it.

Shouting Thomas said...

The military people, dealing with thousands of casualties in the wake of CBS releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures globally, did not consider CBS touting itself as a 1st Amendment exemplar that should be praised - that laughable.

Too bad. That's the military's job.

Roger J. said...

Howard: you and I are in agreement on the use of tremendous store of petroleum--the faster we are independent of perverse sources, the more leverage we will have. The Saudis will exhaust their resources, and we have not as yet tapped ours. A major policy blunder by the Obama administration.

Howard said...

Thomas

Based on your military experience, please explain to us what their job is. Were you in the Marines? Since you talk tough, that'd be my guess.

Cedarford said...

CBS released the Abu Ghraib pictures hoping that it would politically harm Bush as angry Islamoids made our troops pay a price in blood.
CBS cast itself as a courageous defender of Sacred 1st Amendment freedom the whole time mangled and dead US soldiers left the battlefield.
Hiding behind the 1st, to excuse their aid and comfort given the enemy in the way of ammunition and incitement to kill Americans.

In his own way, Nakoula, the Copt refugee con artist, is as bad, as despicable, as the CBS people that saw the opportunity to wound Bush as worth the soldier casualties CBS caused.

The ammunition Nakoula gave the enemy to use against us, is as potent as the Abu Ghraib stuff.

Howard said...

Roger J

Absolutely. The US has more BTUs in natural gas than Saudi has in oil. It's such a huge national security win plus an economic win for us, even Nanny Bloomberg is for it.

oola said...

Roger, my girl is safe and alive, thank God she wasn't jogging along the perimeter at 10PM Afghanistan time when the attacks began. The only reason she wasn't was that she had a late day at work.

The insurgents snuck in the permiter fence, my daughter has said they saw a film of them doing so after the attack. She said she wasn't afraid during the attack, but was afterwords, seeing the film of them breaching the perimeter, she saw just how close they were to where she and her fellow troops jog nightly, as it's too hot during the day.

She also says they are still finding body parts of he insurgents.

antiphone said...

Were you in the Marines?

Are you kidding? He's a Rock Star.

Howard said...

Roger J

I saw all the big convention speeches. The Repubs did not mention domestic energy development specifically, but the Dems did. Everyone is onboard natural gas. They are just dickering over how to cut up the spoils.

This will be the power source of our next industrial revolution.

Never bet against the USA.

Howard said...

Antiphone

Rock Star. Like the war hero Ted Nugent?

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Slightly OT, but here it is; a positive view of the US in most Muslim countries is at lower levels today than under Bush.

Shouting Thomas said...

Based on your military experience, please explain to us what their job is. Were you in the Marines? Since you talk tough, that'd be my guess.

One of their jobs is to protect First Amendment freedoms when they are ordered to do so.

phx said...

The people who want to make a hero of Nakoula remind me of this quote from Solzhenitysn. Maybe some of you will recognize it:

"The defense of individual rights has reached such extremes as to make society as a whole defenseless against certain individuals. It is time, in the West, to defend not so much human rights as human obligations."

Cedarford said...

Shouting Thomas said...
"The military people, dealing with thousands of casualties in the wake of CBS releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures globally, did not consider CBS touting itself as a 1st Amendment exemplar that should be praised - that laughable."

Too bad. That's the military's job.

==================
And in one post, Shouting Thomas revealed his true nature.

Howard said...

oola

I don't know how you do it. You and your girl must be made of sterner stuff.

oola said...

Howard, my daughter has been in the Navy since 2002, I've found since then, that those who talk tough and say all kinds of things about the what the "job of the military" is, have no skin in the game.

Roger J. said...

Howard: concur entirely with your comment--when the Chamber of Commerce and the AFL-CIO want to see the Keystone Pipeline built that sounds like consensus to me. The Bakken oil fields, and the resources available thru new technology (fracking) are written off for political purposes, we are in trouble. The USA has the potential to be the biggest energy supplier for the next 100 years.

Shouting Thomas said...

And in one post, Shouting Thomas revealed his true nature.

Yes, my true nature is that I expect people to do the job they signed on to do.

Howard said...

So Thomas. I take it that's a big NO, you didn't serve?

Shouting Thomas said...

Howard, my daughter has been in the Navy since 2002, I've found since then, that those who talk tough and say all kinds of things about the what the "job of the military" is, have no skin in the game.

We do not serve the military. The military serves us.

oola said...

Howard, I raised a brave daughter, she learned from her Mama not to run away from a fight. But she is wonderful daughter and human being, all her own doing.

Ann Althouse said...

I'm deleting the Titus off topic stuff, so don't respond to it. I have to delete the stuff that quotes it or tells him to "shut the fuck up" or whatever. Thanks for the assistance, but understand why I delete it too.

oola said...

Shouting Thomas, the troops are NOT your sacrificial lambs.

Howard said...

oola

Man, ten years in the service. I suppose she is a lifer now?

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting Thomas, the troops are NOT your sacrificial lambs.

You apparently do not understand the function of the military in our democracy.

oola said...

Also, the military serves the COUNTRY, they are no YOUR personal servants.

William said...

Romney released an arguably hasty statement criticizing the Cairo embassy's apology for the video. In the mainstream press that statement generated far more criticism than the President's patently inept handling of the ambassador's security and the explanations given for his murder.....I don't claim that the President was grossly negligent, but the press certainly is.....This will be like Fast and Furious. The scandal is that it is not a scandal.

Roger J. said...

Professor: I have no problem with your deleting any posts I made in response to the poster known as Titus. Thanks for doing it.

oola said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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