September 10, 2012

"And I’m not suggesting that all stressed-out fathers should just get baked...."

"But for me, at least...."

149 comments:

campy said...

A future president!

Lyssa said...

I've known a lot more people who think that pot improves them in various ways than people who are actually in any way better for it.

Also, there's a lot more to parenting than just appreciating the beauty of the letter Q. What happens when the kid has an emergency and Dad's too baked to figure out what to do?

Lem said...

Frankly...

I getting a little creeped out.

Nonapod said...

For some reason when I read this I get this picture of a father laying on the couch eating corn chips, his son walks in -

Son: Daddy can you drive me to school?

Father: Ahh come on dude, why you always ridin' me?

Sorun said...

I also suffered bouts of stress, compounded by anxiety.

Just wait until they turn 14.

Curious George said...

Marijuana. Is there anything it can't do?

MadisonMan said...

I'm not sure if he's serious or not.

Why do people feel so comfortable airing their shortcomings? Is being famous that important?

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Well, well. I quit smoking pot when my kids came along, threw out my beloved hand-made bongs, rolling pan, everything. If my kids take up smoking that shit, they're going to have to discover it on their own.

Curious George said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Sablan said...

I hate that formation. "I'm not suggesting EVERYONE act in this way, but it totally works for me."

"I'm not suggesting EVERYONE hire a stripper for their son's 18th birthday, but..."

"I'm not suggesting EVERYONE drink a beer for breakfast, but..."

Ann Althouse said...

The thing about being under the influence of something is that your judgment of how well you're doing under it is influenced by it.

That's why you can trust yourself to decide if you're okay to drive when you've been drinking.

Same principle all the way down.

Am I a delightful playmate for my child? Should someone high on marijuana be trusted to answer that question?!

john said...

I received a thorough physical examination from my CannaMed doctor, who checked not only my pulse but my blood pressure as well.

Wow, dude. talk about overtesting.

Expat(ish) said...

Daddy, daddy, I'm bleeding!

Seriously, my wife and I used to take turns having wine with dinner when the kids were much younger.

Now our 16 year old almost-Eagle son and 14 year old Red Cross Babysitting certified daughter are probably more useful in an emergency than we are.

(Just kidding: my wife is supremely awesome in an emergency.)

But I'm not kidding that that started to sound like the dumbest thing I've ever read in the NYT. Which is a high bar.

-XC

Matthew Sablan said...

"The thing about being under the influence of something is that your judgment of how well you're doing under it is influenced by it."

-- So... it's a lot like being stupid?

Tim said...

"So, in 2010, I resolved to seek medical help. I received a thorough physical examination from my CannaMed doctor,..."

Right.

Because, when you are racked by a variety of ailments most commonly associated with aging, the first doctor you turn to is your "CannaMed doctor."

As if this wasn't a solution in seek of a problem.

The poseur is doper, pure, plain and simple, looking to gloss that fact up with some contrived, bullshit "medical" explanation/excuse from a drug-pusher with an MD.

Someday, someone will do an expose on the rampant abuse of "medical" marijuana and expose this bullshit.

That isn't to discount the value for people with conditions such as pancreatic cancer; but comparing this asshole with those victims is a complete moral travesty.

MadisonMan said...

I'm not suggesting EVERYONE read and appreciate Matthew Sablan's point, but....


:)

Geoff Matthews said...

It is a measure of a man that he is able to deal with stress.
Celebrating your inability to deal with it isn't manly.

EMD said...

I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU!

Lem said...

Same principle all the way down.

Althouse Backs Trickle-down Parenting.

garage mahal said...

That's why you can trust yourself to decide if you're okay to drive when you've been drinking.

There are around 10,000 drunk driving fatalities per year, obviously there is something wrong with your hypothesis.

How many die per year from pot driving, do you think?

Rocketeer said...

The thing about being under the influence of something is that your judgment of how well you're doing under it is influenced by it.

As an undergrad art student, I noted early on how talent and quality of work was degraded by weed. For mediocre artists – and let’s face it, almost everyone starting out sucks – it was especially notable. I was always well and truly amazed at the inverse correlation between how good my baked fellow students thought their stuff was, versus how very, very bad it actually was. Crap looks much better when your judgment is crappy, and as good as it may make you feel at the time, ganja surely makes your judgment crappy. When you’re starting off with a low talent base, reducing your ability to self-critique is a very, very bad thing for you chances of improvement.

It’s true for really great artists as well, though. I also played jazz in school, and ate up as much as I could of the greats. I splurged on a CD set of The Complete Charlie Parker recordings, which included every extant recording of the man known then; it cost a small fortune for the time (late-1980s). You know the thing that struck me most when I first listened to it? It wasn’t how great he was, because I already knew that. It was how truly, horribly awful he was when he was drunk or high. You can tell without benefit of seeing him when he was lit. He sucked. That was a real lesson to me about drugs and drink: Even Bird, who had talent I could never, ever hope to have a shadow of, sounded like an absolute dog’s mess when he was high.

t-man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
t-man said...

Did he turn to pot after his 19th nervous breakdown?

ndspinelli said...

If you're stoned good chance you're being silly and laughing w/ your kid..more childlike. That's something I doubt our host or some of the other Reefer Madness folks here can't comprehend.

Lem said...

Should someone high on marijuana be trusted to answer that question?!

“When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids” and “You know, if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” Obama said.

Rocketeer said...

If you're stoned good chance you're being silly and laughing w/ your kid..more childlike.

If you need weed to laugh with your kid, I'm inclined to think you have a problem that's not going to be helped with weed.

Lyssa said...

ndspinelli said If you're stoned good chance you're being silly and laughing w/ your kid..more childlike.

Meh, on the list of ways that people screw up parenting, not being child-like enough is pretty far down. Being far too child-like, however, is pretty high on the list. Kids need parents more than they need playmates.

carrie said...

It's all about the dad. Parenting used to be about responsiblity and sacrifice, but now its about having fun and seeing things through your child's eyes. Impaired parenting indeed.

BarryD said...

"What happens when the kid has an emergency and Dad's too baked to figure out what to do?"

You're assuming that the father has the wherewithal to deal with a real emergency in the first place. Is that a safe assumption?

prairie wind said...

What Lyssa said.

Plus, writing a piece that is meant (?) to be oh-so-funny about using pot while ignoring the fact that pot-laced brownies will land you in jail pretty fast most places and land your kids in CPS. But maybe reality isn't what you think it is.

Never used it, never will but it should be legalized.

BarryD said...

I think that pot should be completely decriminalized, myself. And I have no desire to smoke it. Does nothing for me. But I think it's morally indefensible to imprison people for growing and smoking any plant they want.

But... As long as pot is illegal except for "compassionate use" like prescribing it to AIDS patients and people undergoing chemotherapy, isn't it bullshit to prescribe it for "Dude, like, I wanna get high after work, every day!" syndrome?

Allison said...

Whenever I read stories of people whose self denial is so high than they choose not just to engage in behaviors that could cause them to lose everything, but publicly celebrate those behaviors, I wonder: what totally pathological lies do I tell myself and not realize are lies?

carrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

"Am I a delightful playmate for my child? Should someone high on marijuana be trusted to answer that question?!"

It doesn't sound like he becomes so stoned that he can't discern such a simple thing.

Can anyone even be open to the idea that he's telling the truth and it is not a negative to either him or his children?

Personally, pot would be the absolute last thing I would turn to reduce anxiety, but I know others who find it relaxing. What he describes sounds perfectly plausible to me.

There seem to be a closed minded attitude about pot, that people don't have toward things that have similar functions like anti-depressants, or anti-anxiety drugs with much shorter histories and often much more dangerous side effects.

People here, probably out of lack of experience, seem to overstate the debilitating effects of pot on many people. I have come to realize that although the person who is high feels it's obvious, most outside observers can't often tell in a casual user. If someone has been burning a bong all afternoon, then that's different, but most medical users are pretty conservative with it, and you really can't tell. They function normally. That said, today's pot is a powerful drug, and care should be taken.

It's instructive to realize in the U.S. alcohol use was much higher in the past with people often having beer for breakfast and lunch, and dinner. Children even imbibed, and it wasn't until we cut back that we got really stupid, and unsurprisingly much more nosy and controlling about our fellow citizens.




Marshal said...

Matthew Sablan said...
-- So... it's a lot like being stupid?


This was such an insight they named it after these guys? Had no one ever spoken to a college activist before?

bagoh20 said...

I bet that if pot was not enjoyable, but had all it's other effects, it would be legal, and probably never made illegal in the first place.

SteveR said...

A pretty weak excuse for getting high. Certain points in life for certain people, mean its time to grow up. Being a parent is a responsibility that involves many potentially stressful events. Cope, dude.

ndspinelli said...

Pot really brings out the reactionary in a lot of folks here. Lighten the fuck up! Booze has destroyed millions more families than pot ever could. Parents don't beat they're kids stoned, but they sure the fuck beat them drunk..EVERY FUCKING DAY! Maybe that latter pathology fits some of the reactionaries spouting horseshit here.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, Thoughtful. I can pick out the folks shooting from the hip here who are clueless about pot.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Many of you are missing the point, the bourbons and soda this dad had in hand before switching to pot brownies.

The choice his children are being offered is tanked or baked. Clear-headed parenting is not on the menu.



campy said...

ndspinelli, you sound so stressed out ...

Larry J said...

Matthew Sablan said...
"The thing about being under the influence of something is that your judgment of how well you're doing under it is influenced by it."

-- So... it's a lot like being stupid?


From his link:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Damn, but that description sounds like someone I know. Now, who could that be? Anyone?


jr565 said...

When I was a kid I was taken to see a concert with some of my classmates. My friends older sister came along and at one point her and her dad shared a joint. It struck me as really ... inappropriate. I guess it's different from family to family but having your dad share in your drug use sounds like something your dad shouldn't do.

Rocketeer said...

Hey, don't get me wrong. If you wanna get baked, get baked! But don't fool yourself: you suck at everything you do when you're baked, except being baked.

BarryD said...

"The choice his children are being offered is tanked or baked. Clear-headed parenting is not on the menu."

Have you met any of the 13 parents in San Francisco? There are VERY few kids there, and fewer sane adults.

Clear-headed parenting wasn't on the menu, even without any chemical help. Seriously.

jr565 said...

As long as he's not taking the Hydro.

Sorun said...

@ndspinelli - anyone you know getting a doctor's prescription for gin to help deal with the stress of parenting?

BarryD said...

" But don't fool yourself: you suck at everything you do when you're baked"

That's not true.

I have known more than one person who was apparently self-medicating for something, because they were actually a lot better at a number of things when they were high. They would probably have been even better off with something better-targeted, based on a skilled diagnosis. But short of that, they really could be better off high.

Like I said, the stuff does nothing for me. And some people enjoy it. But others seem to function better with it, too.

Like with anything psychoactive, the individual matters.

Rocketeer said...

I have known more than one person who was apparently self-medicating for something, because they were actually a lot better at a number of things when they were high.

Example, please. I'm not asking for names, just evidence this is true. Because I am telling you: Everyone, and I mean everyone I have ever known that was "self-medicating" sucked at whatever it was they were doing while they were high.

If you've seen circumstances where someone's performance was improved by toking, well, let me just say Bless Their Hearts While They're Sober.

EMD said...

I favor legalization, and I could care less if this guy want to smoke

BUT

It comes off as if he's using it as a bit of a crutch, rather than figuring out the cause of the stress and eliminating that.

MadisonMan said...

Kids need parents more than they need playmates.

What Lyssa said, times 20.

When people say they are their kids' friends (not in the facebook sense) -- I pity their kids.

Amartel said...

carrie @ 3:11. Nails it. Abrogation of responsibility. With the very best of ostensible, poll-tested, scientifically peer-reviewed studied intentions, of course.

Perpetually perplexed said...

That read like a piece from The Onion

Perpetually perplexed said...

That read like a piece from The Onion

ndspinelli said...

Sorun, You probably don't know your history but getting a script for gin, whiskey, etc. was EXACTLY how one got booze legally during Prohibition. How thew fuck did that work out?

In a perfect world one would not need something for relaxation. But between booze, pills, and pot..pot is the most benign.

BarryD said...

"It comes off as if he's using it as a bit of a crutch, rather than figuring out the cause of the stress and eliminating that."

No shit, really?

OTOH it's illegal for him to toss his kids into the Bay, whereas medical pot isn't illegal.

He doesn't sound like someone who should have had kids. Furthermore, is someone holding a gun to his head, keeping him in what I believe is the most expensive city in the US? Given California's economy and terrible business climate, could he not do better somewhere else, where he didn't have to stress out so much, and sacrifice so much, just to pay the mortgage?

acm said...

I honestly would love to see marijuana decriminalized for adults, but articles like this one annoy the hell out of me. Mostly, they are annoying because they are guaranteed, by some law of Internet Physics, to inspire the comments stupidly asserting that no one ever beats her kids or crashes his car while stoned, and, like, that happens all the time with alcohol n' stuff. Baloney. Plenty of stoners abuse their kids and crash their cars, with or without alcohol. Pot lowers your inhibitions and impairs your reaction time, judgement and motor skills. Sure, some people are delightful when stoned, and I would imagine some (like really shy people) are even better at certain things (like schmoozing at a party). Not all of them. Just like some people are happy, sleepy drunks and some are assholes when they're drunk. If this guy is a better dad when baked (and that's a big if) bully for him.

But I'd say that for every one like him, there are ten parents whose kids are worse off with a stoned parent at home.

BarryD said...

"Example, please. I'm not asking for names, just evidence this is true"

You can just keep making your claims, without evidence, if I can't name the person, right?

One example: self-employed carpenter. Generally unable to concentrate on a damned thing, sober. Could, and did, build beautiful furniture, rebuild houses, etc. on a moderate amount of pot. Also organized his house, kept his books, and did a number of other such things he couldn't have done sober.

That's self-medicating, probably for serious ADHD. And like I said, I don't think a shotgun approach like pot is the best answer. We have a fair amount of medical knowledge about that stuff, now. Who knows how much better off he might have been with a targeted medicine, prescribed by a smart, well-educated psychiatrist?

But the fact is, he functioned better with moderate amounts of pot, than without.

edutcher said...

Why not a quart of whiskey a day like Doc Holliday?

Yeah, who cares whether you're drunk on booze or dope? You can't help your kids if something goes wrong, either way.

and nd's nonsense is just that. I'm sure people stoned on pot have done some pretty horrible things as well.

john said...

And let’s not forget the health risks, which are rumored to possibly exist. I’ve heard that even a small amount of marijuana can impair short-term memory function. It might also affect short-term memory function.

C'mon folks.

Freeman Hunt said...

Yeah, I'm sure giggly, high dad is a barrel of laughs. Totally awesome, dude.

edutcher said...

Pot is worse than tobacco for the lungs.

It does impair short-term memory and causes chromosome damage.

The hipsters don't like people being told that because then they don't sound so hip anymore.

BarryD said...

Did anyone else think that this article was intended as a joke?

john said...

Not me BarryD.

Lem said...

That read like a piece from The Onion..

ditto.

BarryD said...

"It does impair short-term memory"

I think that's a feature, not a bug, though.

I have seen a lot of anti-drug bullshit that tells kids, "And you know what's worse? This stuff gets you INTOXICATED!"

I'm not personally a pot user, nor do I advocate using pot. Nevertheless, I think that a lot of anti-pot people sound like they're uninformed, and feel unconstrained by any adherence to reality. And a lot of the pro-pot people turn out to sound just as irrational about alcohol.

jr565 said...

If he's taking it in brownie form I hope his kids aren't eating the brownies.

mccullough said...


More self help nonsense for narcissists. Grow up. A 44-year old art dealer in SF with 3 kids under 6 years old.

ndspinelli said...

edutcher, Hopefully you're standing on your head because as usual, you're talking out of your ass. Sticking to sucking up to Althouse and bring your A game, if you have one, when debating me. You prove my case when I mention reactionary.

ALP said...

Good lord, am I the only pothead that comes to this blog on a regular basis? What you non potheads need to know that there are different strains of weed that produce different types of high. Some can increase focus and productivity, some turn you into a sleepy, couch-bound drooler. The former is great if you need to get things done, the latter if you need help relaxing and sleeping. And those that regularly partake generally don't get as high as the "I only did it a few times"or "I only do it once in a while" folks. I get more stupid on one bottle of beer.

Any pothead that gives a damn about their life manages their intake accordingly. It amazes me that the default position of non-pot smokers is that we are in a constant state of buzzed incompetence. Do you react the same way to a person that admits to a beer or glass of wine regularly? If not, then why not?

The real issue here is that stress over deadlines and a few sleepless nights is now a medicalized issue, when it sounds like plain old life issues to me.

bagoh20 said...

"" But don't fool yourself: you suck at everything you do when you're baked"

Any blanket statement like that seems foolish on it's face, because the fact is that the effects of marijuana are like any drug, they cause a change, and that change, while negative for some people or tasks, can be beneficial for other for exactly the same reason. The effects can reverse or improve particular problems people might have, because the effect is the opposite of their issue. There is plenty of research that shows pot can improve all kinds of things: appetite, nausea, anxiety, pain, glaucoma.

I have seen what this guy is talking about in person with people I know. He's saying it makes him more attentive to his children because it improves his appreciation of what they are into, and makes him enjoy their company more. That's terrible. Again if he got the same effect from a traditional drug, that didn't also make him feel good, I doubt there would be much of this animosity. People really hate when you feel good or succeed, and don't do it their way. Most of the attacks on here include some silly stereotype of a stoner, that's just not reality. Of course people will think it trite, but some of the most successful, level-headed, strong-work-ethic people I know smoke pot. They would likely be all that with out it, but it has not made them worse and certainly not anything like those stereotypes. It's just inaccurate.

Not undisputed but just one example:

"The study also finds that marijuana has the inverse effect that alcohol does on drivers. Drivers under the influence of alcohol tend to make rash decisions and risky moves, whereas those under the influence of marijuana tend to slow down, make safer choices, and increase following distances."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/it-turns-out-that-smoking-marijuana-may-actually-make-you-a-better-driver-2011-12#ixzz266gTGV7Q

ndspinelli said...

ALP, God bless you. Folks, the cerebral "high" of which my man ALP speaks is Sativa. The more couch lock stain is Indica. From a medicinal standpoint, Sativa is best if you need to increase your appetite due to chemo. Indica is good for pain relief and anxiety relief. It's also a great herb for sleep although edutcher would probably take Ambien, like Tom Brokaw.

Lem said...

The real issue here is that stress over deadlines and a few sleepless nights is now a medicalized issue, when it sounds like plain old life issues to me.

You know we are not in Kansas anymore... when a pothead is the voice of reason.

The Godfather said...

Look, I'm 69 years old, and when I take care of my three grandchildren, I get lots of aches and pains, and sometimes it's hard to concentrate.

But I feel MUCH better, and I'm a MUCH better grandparent, after that third Martooni. Yes, indeed-ey doo.

Bur seriously, folks, people like the guy who wrote the article (and the commenters here who supported him) are the best argument for keeping weed illegal (and enforcing that law) that I can think of.

BarryD said...

"Bur seriously, folks, people like the guy who wrote the article (and the commenters here who supported him) are the best argument for keeping weed illegal (and enforcing that law) that I can think of."

Your name isn't John Yossarian, by any chance?

bagoh20 said...

I hope nobody in here getting indignant has ever taken an ambien, Vicodin or other similar drug around their kids, or even had some beer or wine. It is really the same thing. Are you a bad parent now?

Pogo said...

"The persistent, dependent use of marijuana before age 18 has been shown to cause lasting harm to a person's intelligence, attention and memory, according to an international research team.

Quitting pot did not appear to reverse the loss either, said lead researcher Madeline Meier...

Study subjects who didn't take up pot until they were adults with fully-formed brains did not show similar mental declines.
"

Psychoactive drugs have widely variable effects in adults. A drug for which "different strains of weed that produce different types of high" is a concern.

But all in all, this seems little different than drinking a beer while sitting with your kid. It's main problem is the illegality, which threatens you being with your kid by itself.

Pot seems a horrible choice for those under 20.

It may be no worse than daily Paxil for anxiety, which is legal. But those studies aren't being done and maybe never will be.

My interest here is the anxiety disorder. That diagnosis seems to be on the increase. Why is the issue. How to treat is debatable. People do all sorts of things to address it, so I have a hard time faulting them for just trying things.

Cognitive behavioral therapy would be more helpful in the long run, by retraining his brain to better manage his unwanted fight-or-flight responses (i.e., anxiety). And it can help your kid learn how to deal with it. Because what do you do when you can't find pot for the anxiety right goddamn now?

Marcus Aurelius is useful here as well.

Pogo said...

My argument is to study pot vs. other drugs, in short.

But guys like this would benefit by mental discipline training as well.

edutcher said...

ndspinelli said...

edutcher, Hopefully you're standing on your head because as usual, you're talking out of your ass. Sticking to sucking up to Althouse and bring your A game, if you have one, when debating me. You prove my case when I mention reactionary.

Shove it, jerk.

My father was a drunk (which I have mentioned here several times) and I got hit so much as a kid that, even into my 40s, anytime somebody raised his hand for any reason, I ducked.

You're so panicked because Althouse deleted a few comments, you're still obsessing over it, so it seems you're the one talking out his ass.

So, go back to the Valise and your invitation-only blog, not to mention the other one, and save your stupid opinions for those that want to listen.

Eric said...

Am I a delightful playmate for my child? Should someone high on marijuana be trusted to answer that question?!

I question whether being a "delightful playmate" is really a parental responsibility. That's what actual playmates are for.

And yeah, to know whether this is really an improvement you'd have to ask the wife, assuming she's not getting baked too.

Eric said...

Bur seriously, folks, people like the guy who wrote the article (and the commenters here who supported him) are the best argument for keeping weed illegal (and enforcing that law) that I can think of.

I think "keeping weed illegal (and enforcing the law)" has been tried unsuccessfully for long enough. Do you think his kids will be better off if their dad spends a couple years in jail and then can't get legitimate job after he gets out?

bagoh20 said...

ALP, You got some beautiful photos on your site.

ndspinelli said...

edutcher, Are you stalking me? Pretty fucking creepy.

I am sorry about your childhood and @ least we share the idea that booze is an often harmful drug.

Ann Althouse said...

Sorry I wrote "can" for "can't"....

You can't trust your judgment when you've been drinking, because you've been drinking.

edutcher said...

No, I just know who you are.

n.n said...

It may serve the short-term interests of the father, but consuming a psychotropic drug is not compatible with responsibility for the development of another human being. Perhaps he should consider other outlets, especially those which involve bonding with his child.

Methadras said...

Where is my Heath Ledger as the joker "Not sure if serious" jpg?

Amartel said...

"I hope nobody in here getting indignant has ever taken an ambien, Vicodin or other similar drug around their kids, or even had some beer or wine."

It's not "really the same thing," not in the context of the argument. Not on a daily basis so I can "relate" better to the kids.

Geez, the libertarian strawman army immediately storms the field of battle at the merest tiny suggestion that maybe pot legalization/useage is possibly fraught with unintended consequences and may not be such a great idea practically speaking.

CachorroQuente said...



Bagoh20 quotes Business Insider:"The study also finds that marijuana has the inverse effect that alcohol does on drivers. Drivers under the influence of alcohol tend to make rash decisions and risky moves, whereas those under the influence of marijuana tend to slow down, make safer choices, and increase following distances."

You should have clicked through and actually looked at the paper cited. To the extent that it studied anything, it did not study the effects of marijuana on drivers. Basically, the paper cited presented the results of some regression analysis attempting to correlate medical marijuana legalization by states to traffic fatalities. There may be a cause and effect relationship there, but it's not necessary.

Here's one thing the cited paper does state:

"However, because other mechanisms cannot be ruled out, the negative relationship between medical marijuana laws and alcohol-related traffic fatalities does not necessarily imply that driving under the influence of marijuana is safer than driving under the influence of alcohol."

That's a little different from the characterization which you imply.

CachorroQuente said...

"I bet that if pot was not enjoyable, but had all it's other effects, it would be legal, and probably never made illegal in the first place."

Of course not. If pot were not enjoyable, nobody would smoke it. In fact, it's my opinion that the vast majority of people who use marijuana use it because it is enjoyable and not for any of its other effects.

That's not to say that mj use should not be legal in almost all cases; it should be.

Synova said...

I also suffered bouts of stress, compounded by anxiety.

"Just wait until they turn 14."

Truth.

It seems weird to me to be all stressed when they're little. How much trouble can they get in when they're little. Sleep deprived? Sure. But really, no one USED to feel like they had to interact with their children. "Go play" and "Don't bother me" weren't signs of a bad parent.

Right now my stress and anxiety related to my children is through the roof. None of them are even in trouble. But I remember having melt-downs when I was a teen, and screaming and even throwing things. My mother never intervened (today I wondered if she used to hide) and I just eventually got over it. Teens were expected to melt down, lots of tears and "I hate you!" and slamming stuff and yelling for the boys, too.

Now we freak out. What if it's not just moodiness? What if something is *wrong*? What if I'm ignoring a problem? How evil a parent would I be if I ignore a problem and then my kid jumps off a bridge and no one believes anymore that you "had no idea". And what kind of excuse is that anyway?

Being responsible for someone *elses* emotional state is a killer.

I probably couldn't make myself take marajuana if someone baked me a brownie and if I suddenly got happy I'd probably freak out and wonder where I had gone away to.

But I can understand the attraction.

As it is I do the withdrawing part anyhow, just to protect myself. I just don't shed any of the anxiety.

(I'm sure that's more than anyone wanted to know.)

Sorun said...

This is what happens when you smoke pot: You shoot your own cock off

bagoh20 said...

"It's not "really the same thing," not in the context of the argument"
You'll have to explain this. How is taking those other drugs including alcohol in the same scenario any different?

And speaking of straw men. Those are overwhelming on the anti-pot side here.

I don't care one way or the other, it's not an issue in my life. I'm just arguing for people to be honest and open minded. Some here are saying shit that's just not informed.
It's gonna get em kicked out of the intelligentsia, and I'm trying to ride some coat tails here.

bagoh20 said...

" If pot were not enjoyable, nobody would smoke it."

There are things people smoke that don't get them high, but as soon as something does, the immediate reaction is to make it illegal. I bet if a new strain of broccoli gave you a buzz, the calls to make it illegal would be deafening, even if it was good for you.

ndspinelli said...

edutcher, Of course you know who I am because I use my real fucking name and give identifying information. In the words of the Who, "Who the fuck are you?"

Oh and edutcher, everyone here knows you're talking out of your ass so the smart thing to do on this thread is to give it up and move the fuck on!

Big Mike said...

I received a thorough physical examination from my CannaMed doctor, who checked not only my pulse but my blood pressure as well.

Am I the only person who was struck by that statement? I mean, talk about thoroughness, the doctor not only checked his pulse (presumably to make sure he had one) and but he read the dude's blood pressure just to make sure.

Like, wow! Dud.

That is not a misspelling.

Luckily, so far, the author apparently has not had to deal with a real emergency with his kids. But that's pure luck, and luck has a way of running out.

Oh, and for the record. Pain is nature's way of telling you that there's a problem. So just because the medical marijuana leaves him cool with his back pain, doesn't mean that that's a good thing.

bagoh20 said...

How will we explain to our children that the President smoked a lot of pot and did coke, but graduated from Harvard, and was still "clean and articulate" - a god-like creature - better than any mortal taxpayer? He smoked some blunts, and then got real smart, and then built everything.

MadisonMan said...

Synova, I've been there. I view teen years as something to observe. If you've been a good parent, what's happening in the teen years probably won't derail the trajectory the kids are on. Some days are just more drama-filled than others. I find that if I can laugh about it with the spouse, well, that's better than crying about it with them.

But you're so right about the anxiety. I'm the worrier in the family. I just don't want my kids to become worriers.

john said...

C'mon folks.

john said...

Ever gotten up from your chair after a long afternoon of blog commenting, and it seemed like one leg was longer than the other?

EMD said...

I feel like Dad of the Year since I can laugh and play with my kids without toking up beforehand.

Palladian said...

I'd need something a lot stronger than marijuana to be able to tolerate the proximity of children.

ken in sc said...

I have tried pot about three or four times in my life. I don't remember for sure. One time I had so much Scotch I had trouble sitting on the floor and not being flung off by the force of the rotation of the earth, so I could not tell much difference. Mostly, I remember it made me hungry and laugh at stupid stuff. It is not something I would seek out now.

Eric said...

Sorry I wrote "can" for "can't"....

You can't trust your judgment when you've been drinking, because you've been drinking.


That's the way I interpreted it - after you've been drinking you can trust your judgement even though objectively it's impaired.

Eric said...

Oh, and for the record. Pain is nature's way of telling you that there's a problem. So just because the medical marijuana leaves him cool with his back pain, doesn't mean that that's a good thing.

Spoken like a guy without chronic pain. Sometimes you already know there's a problem but the doctors can't do anything about it. A great many people with back pain have already exhausted every option beyond controlling the pain.

Christy said...

Obviously this guy has never watched that Dragnet episode "The Big High." Available for your enjoyment on-line. Baby drowns in the bathtub while Mom and Dad are toking it up with friends in the living room. I cried.

Pogo, Commodus, son of Marcus Aurelius, does not speak well of MA's parenting skills.

jeff said...

"I hope nobody in here getting indignant has ever taken an ambien, Vicodin or other similar drug around their kids, or even had some beer or wine. It is really the same thing. Are you a bad parent now?"

Depends. Do you take them because you feel your a bad parent without? if so, then yeah.

"Pot really brings out the reactionary in a lot of folks here. Lighten the fuck up! Booze has destroyed millions more families than pot ever could. Parents don't beat they're kids stoned, but they sure the fuck beat them drunk..EVERY FUCKING DAY! Maybe that latter pathology fits some of the reactionaries spouting horseshit here."

I have a friend in Ohio who smoked all the time. When he had his first kid he used to tell us that as soon as she was old enough, he was going to teach her how to roll her first joint. I asked him why in the world he would do that, he would say, "its better than her getting raped and killed in some alley" Which, while true, those two options are not the only choices. Getting baked all the time is better than beating your kids while drunk. True. Also not the only two choices.

bagoh20 said...

Depends. Do you take them because you feel your a bad parent without? if so, then yeah."

So, if you take anti-depressants because your depression makes you a bad parent, or Vicodin because your pain makes it hard for you to interact with your kids, etc, etc? You know, taking medication to improve your parenting, because it seems to help.

If I was Crack, all my comments here would end with: "Man, you guys are dumb.", but that would be plagiarism, so I don't do that.

Right this moment, I just got hit with the smell of pot in my kitchen from my neighbor who has always smoked up most days for the entire 17 years I have lived next to him. Still married to the same woman, raised 3 well behaved kids, responsible business owner, friendly, helpful, good neighbor, lots of friends. Never heard him say "Dude" even once, and he's a surfer too. Weird!

Paddy O said...

"That's why you can trust yourself to decide if you're okay to drive when you've been drinking."

Some show not too long ago did a study of drinking and driving. Closed course, of course. They had a group of men and women drive in various stages of inebriation--from none to much and parts in between.

One of the interest aspects was that drivers who were pretty above the legal limit were among the safest drivers in the bunch. Too low or at the limit, they were taking risks and driving the course fast. Too much they were impaired.

But the middle group, I forget the number, was aware enough to know they were drunk so actually were extra cautious because of it. Cautious in a way that long time drivers often aren't.

Muns said...

Smoking Pot Raises Risk of Testicular Cancer, Schizophenia and Infertility - and Lowers IQ.

Big Mike said...

@Eric, you're perfectly correct, of course. But where in the article did you see any indication that the writer had checked with a real doctor about alleviating his back pain?

bagoh20 said...

"Smoking Pot Raises Risk of Testicular Cancer, Schizophenia and Infertility - and Lowers IQ"

Driving raises the risk of killing yourself, your children, or others significantly.

Taking a shower without a helmet raises the risk of head injury.

Studies raise the risk of anxiety, paranoia, and misdirection.

Eric said...

Smoking Pot Raises Risk of Testicular Cancer, Schizophenia and Infertility - and Lowers IQ.

The lowered IQ effect has only been demonstrated in adolescents.

As for the rest... much of the information the government has put out about pot over the years is just flat wrong, and the DEA prevents independent researchers from doing double-blind studies. Some of that may be true, but I doubt it.

Alex said...

The Beatles' creativity took off with pot, and then took to another level with LSD.

Eric said...

But where in the article did you see any indication that the writer had checked with a real doctor about alleviating his back pain?

Assuming it's not just made up for the purpose of getting a prescription for pot, I find it really hard to believe he never saw a "real" doctor about it. Even with pot he's going to be in pain most of the day, which is not something you can just ignore.

Alex said...

jr... I guess it's different from family to family but having your dad share in your drug use sounds like something your dad shouldn't do.

Why the blanket judgmental-ism? Maybe that daughter he shared a doobie with goes on to be the next Steve Jobs and you look like an idiot.

Eric said...

The Beatles' creativity took off with pot, and then took to another level with LSD.

If "creativity took off" is some kind of euphemism for "their music turned to crap", then I agree.

Big Mike said...

Assuming it's not just made up for the purpose of getting a prescription for pot ...

Well,that's certainly an assumption, isn't it?

I find it really hard to believe he never saw a "real" doctor about it.

Looks like a second assumption. Do two assumptions make one truth? Or do they double the probability that you've made a mistake?

Eric said...

Well, there's a third assumption here, which is your assumption he never saw a "real" doctor.

bagoh20 said...

I'd like to hear Pogo's opinion on the doctors that prescribe pot.

BarryD said...

"maybe pot legalization/useage is possibly fraught with unintended consequences and may not be such a great idea practically speaking.?"

Conflating legalization and usage is the ultimate straw man of those who support drug criminalization.

I think that, by and large, those who want to smoke pot, do. Decriminalizing it will reduce our prison population, and bring our criminal justice system a bit closer to some moral foundation, where "crime" means something.

What I don't think that decriminalizing pot will do, is make more people into regular users.

Sure, initially, there's the "All right! We can go buy weed now!" honeymoon period, where some people will smoke a bit. But after that, those who aren't all that interested in it now, probably won't be. Lots of things are legal, and people choose not to buy them anyway.

Remember that alcohol consumption went UP under Prohibition.

So it's not that we libertarian types don't think there are side-effects to pot. It's that we think that people who want the stuff, already get it -- there are all sorts of brand names for it, for chrissakes, so it's a very well-developed black market!

If anything, if it's legal, it might be less interesting to some people. But be that as it may, we wouldn't be introducing so many average citizens to the criminal underworld, if they could buy the stuff in the open.

Pogo said...

@bagoh
The government is using a bullshit maneuver to legalize pot. It's chickenshit to medicalize pot use. It corrupts both the user and the MD, which can allow them to be corrupted for worse (I.e., Obamacare death panels).

OTOH, bullshit begets such unintended consequences. Lefty docs are in on this to deregulate minor drugs that should be decriminalized. There are some very legit reasons (mainly chronic pain) warranting the prescriptions, as the classes of pain available meds is really shockingly small.

I do not see pot as a huge danger, except perhaps to those under 18. I am myself more concerned with why anxiety and pain disorders seem to be so much more common in the last 20 years, prompting demand for drug treatment.

Muns said...

Pot Smoking Doubles Risk of Testicular Cancer:
http://www.fhcrc.org/en/news/releases/2009/02/marijuana.html
Pot Smoking Lowers IQ:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract
Pot Smoking Triggers Schizophrenia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2892048
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21363868
Pot Smoking Lowers Fertility and Causes Genetic Damage:
http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/347

Here's Melanie Haiken's article from Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2012/09/10/science-shows-smoking-pot-raises-risk-of-testicular-cancer-schizophenia-and/2/

Eric said...

I am myself more concerned with why anxiety and pain disorders seem to be so much more common in the last 20 years, prompting demand for drug treatment.

These may just be problems people used to treat themselves with alcohol.

Tibore said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

@eric
I think it's worse, overall. You wouldn't believe how many people are disabled by chronic pain. It has increased.

Tibore said...

"Even though I was only 44, I’d been suffering from occasional back pain. I also suffered bouts of stress, compounded by anxiety. The causes were unknown, but there seemed to be a correlation with work deadlines and flying coach with three children under the age of 5. "

And yet, millions of other parents with ailments like back pain and stress still manage to get by without pot.

"After two years of treatment, I can state unequivocally that I feel much better about pretty much everything. Sure, my back still hurts, but I’m cool with it."

Ahh, so in other words, the treatment didn't even address the symptom, but since it's pot, you're okay with that.

Got it.

Let me know how you feel if you ever take an antibiotic, contraceptive, or heaven forbid a chemotherapy agent and run into the same effect. Remember: It's okay if it doesn't work, just as long as it gets you stoned.

"I swear I am a more loving, attentive and patient father when I take my medication as prescribed."

I've had friends point-blank swear to me they were better drivers when drunk, better at studying when stoned... yeah, people swear to things a lot. Doesn't make 'em true.

"As anyone who inhaled during college can attest, cannabis enhances the ability to perceive beauty, complexity and novelty in otherwise mundane things (grout patterns in your bathroom floor, the Grateful Dead, Doritos), while simultaneously locking you into a prolonged state of rapt attention. You not only notice the subtle color variations in your cat’s fur, you stare at them in loving awe for 20 solid minutes."

Because, you know, sitting around being baked is soooo the equivalent of being a productive individual...

Holy crap, that guy is oblivious. Not only was that one of the most self-absorbed articles ever in the NYT (which is saying something), but the self-implication in saying that he needs pot to be a good parent is astounding. Not to mention that upping your own self-perception is not the same as objectively improving your performance, parental or otherwise.

bagoh20 said...

I think people decide to never use pot or to quit using pot because of one of two reasons: they either don't want the psychotropic effects, or don't like the idea of being a pot smoker. I don't think many people avoid it because it's risky. It isn't relative to other risks people take regularly without a second thought.

The two reasons above are more than adequate reasons to avoid it without overplaying risks. If you want to talk your kids out of it, you better not use some line of bullshit that turns out false. Besides, riskiness is not a very good deterrent to the young.

I think the recent commercials that show people unattractively stoned are much more effective, because kids know those are more true, and they hit kids where they really fear - how they look to others.

Eric said...

I think it's worse, overall. You wouldn't believe how many people are disabled by chronic pain. It has increased.

That's depressing. Could it be joint damage from extra weight?

Eric said...

Muns, I spent some time looking though those links, and I gotta say that's some pretty thin gruel from a scientific perspective, especially the study on testicular cancer. There's a reason I want the government to relax the rules a bit - you can't do a valid medical study by having people fill out questionnaires.

Pogo said...

Nah, these are younger people, not obese. It's too complex and boring for this forum, but I see these patients several
times a week now, where it used to be rare.

And no one wants to see them. They try everything for relief, including pot and narcotics. A real problem.

The guy in the article spoke of chroic back pain and anxiety; both are connected.

Kirk Parker said...

Pogo,

"My argument is to study pot vs. other drugs, in short."

That puts you firmly in my camp (or me in yours)... and totally at odds with the entire FedGov.



(BTW, aren't you proud of me for not writing "the entire damned FedGov"? Not that they aren't damned, of course...)

Kirk Parker said...

Pogo,

"too complex and boring for this forum"

Wrong! At least give us the Cliff Notes version.

Pogo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

@Kirk:
The disorder is called Central Sensitization; an overview is here, a decent reference is here.

In short, it is a unifying theory for chronic pain such as fibromyalgia, low back pain, chronic daily headaches, TMJ, irritable bowel/bladder, 'multiple chemical sensitivity', chronic pelvic pain, etc.

The brain and spinal cord amplify sensation and over time create pain from normal signals.

Likely a combination of genetic predisposition, environmental exposure (pesticides causing estrogenization), and abuse/trauma/PTSD.

"Stress and anxiety" like the guy in the article had is part of it. His back pain is better when his anxiety is less, not because he doesn't care anymore, but because the volume is turned down on the pain amplifier.

R.L. Hunter said...

What a drag it is getting old.

Fernandinande said...

All you Puritans who fell for the endless gov't propaganda would be laughable if your ignorance didn't result in innocent people being thrown in prison.

"Same principle all the way down." -- That's surprisingly ludicrous. Booze isn't pot any more than are cigarettes or aspirin.

Do y'all know they still give speed to military pilots? But of course, then you can't trust them to make decisions other than the brain-dead simple decisions involved in flying expensive aircraft filled with bombs.

Rocketeer said...

Sure, BarryD. I'm all for legalizing the stuff, too. I'm with you on that.

But you can keep your beautiful rocking chair, built by the spliffed carpenter, since he forgot to use glue and screws while he was stoned.

BarryD said...

"I have tried pot about three or four times in my life. I don't remember for sure. One time I had so much Scotch I had trouble sitting on the floor and not being flung off by the force of the rotation of the earth, so I could not tell much difference. Mostly, I remember it made me hungry and laugh at stupid stuff. It is not something I would seek out now."

This is pretty common, I think.

That's my point. Whether it's legal or not, you're probably not too interested. Neither am I.

But some people really like the stuff, and they all are able to obtain all the high-quality, branded, differentiated weed they want. Generally, that's what they do.

Criminalizing pot is a farce, except that real people get hurt -- by the crime surrounding the black market. They're not hurt by the pot, or if they are, the law isn't stopping it.

"And no one wants to see them. They try everything for relief, including pot and narcotics. A real problem."

Wait 'til Obamacare is fully implemented. Then there will be an even greater population that nobody wants to see. They'll get all the free health care that nobody has any interest in providing...

BarryD said...

"But you can keep your beautiful rocking chair, built by the spliffed carpenter, since he forgot to use glue and screws while he was stoned."

See, that's what I mean. I offer an example, truthfully, and you simply deny that it's accurate.

It happens to be accurate. I saw the work, up close, that he did while smoking moderate amounts of pot. He didn't forget anything. Had he been sober, he probably would have forgotten the glue.

That's the definition of "self-medicating for severe ADHD." And as I said, a better treatment would probably have served him better. That doesn't negate the fact that he was more competent and able to concentrate much better with some pot, than with nothing.

Kirk Parker said...

Thanks, Pogo!

Eric said...

But you can keep your beautiful rocking chair, built by the spliffed carpenter, since he forgot to use glue and screws while he was stoned.

You know, the guy who painted my house was stoned the entire time. He's the kind of guy who wakes up with a bong hit, eats with a bong hit, and goes to bed with a bong hit. He probably sets his alarm to wake him up in the middle of the night for a hit so his system is never completely devoid of THC.

And yet he did a beautiful job on my house. My neighbors all came over and asked for his number.

ndspinelli said...

Eric, Maybe they wanted to buy his weed!

ALP said...

bagoh20 @ 9/10/12 6:02 PM:

ALP, You got some beautiful photos on your site.
********************
Belated thanks for the timely compliment. I was probably high when I took some of those photos as well! Recently decided to learn Dreamweaver and get my own site up - compliments are a great motivator!

ndspinelli said...

ALP, Just checked out your photos. I say you're a sativa person. They're superb.

reformed trucker said...

"Pot is worse than tobacco for the lungs." - edutcher

And alcohol is worse than water for the kidneys.

If you're not on the "outlaw alcohol" bandwagon, you're just a hypocrite.

reformed trucker said...

"Good lord, am I the only pothead that comes to this blog on a regular basis?" - ALP

Obviously. There are some here that think smoking a few hits is the same as smoking a quarter of hydro in one sitting.

Simpletons lecturing from ignorance.

reformed trucker said...

"My father was a drunk..." - edutcher

Sorry to hear that; I have alcohol issues in my family as well.

But smoking a few hits of weed is not the same as getting hammered.

I do feel that I owe you an apology for getting personal the last time we touched on this topic. I was drinking, and turned it into a personal attack. See, it would have been better if I stuck to the weed. :)

And I still think that 7 can whoop you. ;)

reformed trucker said...

"Right this moment, I just got hit with the smell of pot in my kitchen from my neighbor who has always smoked up most days for the entire 17 years I have lived next to him. Still married to the same woman, raised 3 well behaved kids, responsible business owner, friendly, helpful, good neighbor, lots of friends." - bagoh20

He has you snowed; I'm sure he's a total dirtbag. ;)

I've smoked for 35 years. Been with the same woman since highschool (31 years), raised 2 well behaved girls, multiple business owner, good neighbor [although the guy next door smokes also] friendly, etc...

And nobody else in the whole subdivision is the wiser.

I have a double hernia, a bad knee, lower back pain, and the start of Glaucoma in one eye, so a few hits of weed makes things "better".

Obama will fix everything though, seeing that getting fucked in taxes sucks up any money for health insurance. Teh One will save us all!