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I don't agree with Oop very often, but do respect the fact she's had/got family members on the front line. I'm always skeptical of chicken hawks like Cheney who deferred his way out of Vietnam. And perhaps more abhorred at someone like Bill Clinton who simply pretended he didn't get his draft letter and got on the boat to England for his Rhodes Scholarship. I'm not sure a draft is that bad an idea. Across the board and no deferments. Would install a lot of national pride and perhaps bring some unity across different demographic strata (which our armed forces has to some extent now). I'm a firm believer that our country started to go down the drain in the mid 90's when the WWII generation started to die and/or retire. There was a common culture with common sense that rans things here up until that point. We are adrift now with many disparate factions running different pieces of society. Welcome to the new Lebanon.
This slow but steady ratcheting down of expectations is beginning to show some wear and tear on America as we knew her.
AllieOop said... Matthew, I'm all for reinstating the draft, especially in wartime.I don't know what the statistics say about effectiveness of draftees and I realize that to a large degree this is an abstract discussion driven by political principle, but if I'd ever gone to war I'd have rather known that the guys on my flank were there because they chose to be rather than because they didn't have the political connections to get out of it.bagoh20 said...I have long held a sense of lost opportunity, and guilt about not serving myself. I wish I could now.There are three choices I've made in my life that I truly regret, two of them are not reenlisting and not going back in after 9/11.
It's highly unlikely that we are devolving, but way more likely we are satisfied with..."WHATeva"!
Off Drudge:Another night of "demonstrations" outside our embassy in Cairo.Embassies on alert in (are you ready?) Morocco, Algeria, Armenia, Burundi, Kuwait, Sudan, Tunisia and Zambia.This thing is a long way from over.
AllieOop said... Also, Revenant I'm not concerned about good people serving, my daughter is one of them. BUT if we are attacked in a big way, we will be scrambling to find enough troops.The military's currently turning volunteers away for things like single instances of non-violent juvenile arrest records. Your comment only holds water if by "scrambling" you mean "calling up all the people who wanted to join but couldn't because they tagged a warehouse or got caught with a joint in their bookbag."
"You know I just don't get why Allie brings her family into these political debates."I think she's just proud of them.
Really, AndyN?Doesn't pass my smell test.
But if I were in charge? That would sound about right.
THANKYOU Bagoh! (((Once again))) So right.
A nuclear device in New York or San Diego Harbor be big enough for you?No. Let me remind you of what you said:The problem with modern warfare is that if we ever are attacked "in a big way," the war will be over before we could train any new recruits of any kind.To point out the obvious:1. Trained troops are no defense against a terrorist nuke.2. You're describing the start, not the end, of a war. Think what we did to Japan for killing one percent as many people as you're talking about.
It's about time that kids who have parents who have "nothing" begin to contemplate having LESS than nothing.
You don't need to hold a gun to someone's head to make them do what THEY think is the right thing to doNot sure what you're crying about, libertarian. Defend you're own turf. Unless you think more government workers is the only answer?
Assuming your government is democratic, it may seem that conscription is tyrannical, but the idea of using some other man's sense of duty to fill your spot and ask him to do what you find so offensive seems to me to be even worse, and frankly despicable. If the choice is between conscription and expecting others to do my duty, conscript me, force me at gunpoint. Libertarian does not mean getting others to cover your responsibilities to your fellow man.
And we are WAY overdue for some flooding out of our basements.Kids? That's like when the toilet overflows right after you took a big shit.You need to do some PLUNGING, and it doesn't matter much if you feel like it.
Honor, duty, country.
Penny, Wherever you are, I always wish I was there too. It seems to be a reliably good time.
Penny's always shiny:)
"Libertarian does not mean getting others to cover your responsibilities to your fellow man."Provided you and your fellow man share the same Libertarian country?
I'm not sure a draft is that bad an idea. Across the board and no deferments. The problem is we can't do that and build an effective military. We simply don't have the money. That's why deferments and the lottery existed - even during the Vietnam war we couldn't afford to draft everyone who was eligible.The only way you could do it is draft people and then not train them properly. If you ever put that army in the field against a modern adversary it would be smashed.What you're advocating is a social program, not a military.
Awww, come on, Allie and Bagho? We're a lot alike when we aren't finding ways to scuff things up.
Penny said... Really, AndyN? Doesn't pass my smell test.Allow me a moment to recover from the shock of being called a liar in a blog comment thread...I have a friend's child's personal experience to back it up, but I'm some random stranger on the internet so there's no reason you should believe me. You could go ask a recruiter if they're meeting their quotas and how picky they can be now.I googled military recruiting quotas, this was the first thing that looked relevant with a recent date stamp...http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/riverside/riverside-headlines-index/20120423-region-military-recruiters-say-enlisting-is-more-competitive.ece"In addition, enlistment requirements have become more stringent in recent years. Although a few recruits are accepted with GEDs, most have to have a high school diploma. Depending upon the branch of service, they also may have to score higher on the armed services vocational aptitude battery, commonly called the ASVAB. Tattoos, especially those on the neck and lower arms, will disqualify a potential recruit, even if they subsequently have the tattoos removed. Even an unpaid traffic ticket can disqualify an applicant."
And I guess that's the great thing about either buying yourself some new shoes, or trying someone else's on in a pinch.
Not sure what you're crying about, libertarian. Defend you're own turf. Unless you think more government workers is the only answer? It is a source of wonder to me that you actually typed that, looked at it, and thought to yourself "yes, that makes sense".
What doesn't pass the smell test Penny? Turning recruits away for minor juvvie infractions?That's the normal state of things. No police contact for the Air Force. Period. Different services have a different point of what they'll overlook, but it's pretty much that. The old "it's jail or the Army for you, son" is a myth from the dark mists of History and wasn't true after at least Carter.During the Iraq war a lot of that was loosened up. What sense is there in turning away someone when their "police contact" was graffiti or a prank or pot if they test clean? Misdemeanors? Who cares? If you were highly motivated and wanted to jump through a number of high hoops and had a felony conviction that was technically a felony but not a violent one, you could petition for a review and waver. There were a few of those issued.But are recruiters still doing that? I don't think so. No need. Why take a kid dumb enough to get caught with pot when you've got plenty who never did so lined up and annoyed at having a six month wait?
Obama hasn't blamed Bush for all those al Qaeda operatives operating as yet nor has he instructed the media to do so either - so they are hassling Mitt instead.Can you even begin to imagine the stinky brouhaha that would ensue if Bush were president now?November 6 would mean bye-bye.
Not calling you a liar, AndyN.Just said that what you said didn't pass my smell test.Here's the thing to consider...On the internet? There is rarely a thing we could say that could not be supported with a link.
Just that some links stink.
Kinda like that basement that flooded out when the kid was trying to flush his big shit.
Of course, in a real war, the problem won’t be warm bodies, it will be working equipment. Our troops use so many kinds of force enhancers that our current forces (which are one tenth the the size of our forces at the end of WWII), could probably easily destroy the majority of those same WWII in a few hours or days. However, these force enhancers are VERY expensive and they are consumed in combat at an unbelievable rate. I read a report in the mid-80s when I was doing semi-spook stuff as part of an SF unit that an all out war in Europe would have exhausted all the ammo/fuel/expendables in about 20 days. If anything, we are on even shorter rations now. "You go to war with the army [and the ordnance] you have" is exactly right. So, no, barring a complete change in the way we fight wars, we will not be instituting a draft anytime in the foreseeable future.
Penny said... Not calling you a liar, AndyN. Just said that what you said didn't pass my smell test. Here's the thing to consider... On the internet? There is rarely a thing we could say that could not be supported with a link.I didn't really think you were, mostly just feigning surprise that somebody would dare question the veracity of one of my unsupported blanket statements.
Marine Security Guards are charged with protecting classified material. Property and personnel are secondary protection mission IF there is time and opportunity."MissionThe primary mission of the Marine Security Guard (MSG) is to provide internal security at designated U.S. diplomatic and consular facilities in order to prevent the compromise of classified material vital to the national security of the United States."http://www.mcesg.marines.mil/According to reports, there were two Marines in Benghazi, but apparently they were off duty and came back to the consulate when the violence started and ere shot dead outside the building. Libyan security guarded the property.
Assuming your government is democratic, it may seem that conscription is tyrannical, but the idea of using some other man's sense of duty to fill your spot and ask him to do what you find so offensive seems to me to be even worse, and frankly despicable.Saying "if you don't fight for me, I'll have you imprisoned or killed" is less despicable than saying "oh, you want to fight? Ok, go ahead"? I had you pegged as having more sense than that, bagoh20.Also, what's this "your spot" nonsense? We haven't faced an existential threat since the Civil War. We've got about a million more active-duty troops than we've any need for (especially considering the size of the deficit).
I'm a firm believer that our country started to go down the drain in the mid 90's when the WWII generation started to die and/or retireThey were firm believers in big government and voted themselves high SS and Medicare benefits that the boomers paid for. Now there aren't enough young people to pay the boomers' benefits, but no one wants to give up things they thought they'd paid for.
"In addition, enlistment requirements have become more stringent in recent years. Although a few recruits are accepted with GEDs, most have to have a high school diploma. Depending upon the branch of service, they also may have to score higher on the armed services vocational aptitude battery, commonly called the ASVAB. Tattoos, especially those on the neck and lower arms, will disqualify a potential recruit, even if they subsequently have the tattoos removed. Even an unpaid traffic ticket can disqualify an applicant."Yes, this is generally correct.The DOD did a study in the mid-2000's -'05-'07, as I recall - in which they assessed that considerably less than 50% of American youth of eligible military age were actually eligible for the military. Factors such as education, drug use, criminal records and obesity disqualified something on the order of 80% of youth between 18-26 years old.The study (just found a news article citing it: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/ATrecruitsurvey070308/) shows that only 27& are eligible for the Army.Doesn't bode well for the nation, pro or anti-draft. When 73% of military age youth can't enlist (yes, no doubt some of the barriers are artificial), that's pretty weak. Spells "free-rider" to me.
AndyN, I think you should fly to Eygpt and house hunt, in the liberal section, the one just East of Cario.
So, no, barring a complete change in the way we fight wars, we will not be instituting a draft anytime in the foreseeable future. doofus has got it right. The draft is not coming back for practical reasons. That's not how we fight wars anymore. We don't even take all volunteers -- only those smart enough, fit enough, and socialized enough to be trained.
"I had you pegged as having more sense than that, bagoh20."You should be more discerning, I give plenty of evidence to the contrary."Also, what's this "your spot" nonsense? We haven't faced an existential threat since the Civil War."Well not even that, or any other war we have been in has actually been existential. We just would be ruled by different people and rules today. Still here, still probably prosperous and safe. So what was any of it worth killing or dying for? Any of it, anywhere anytime? I happen to think so, because I'm not going to live forever anyway, and I take existential risks every day, so simple things like saving an innocent life I would hope would inspire me, especially if I know that if I don't, some other poor sucker will have too. It's not really hypothetical. Once the war is started - that's exactly the choice - you or someone else is gonna go.
"...it may seem that conscription is tyrannical..."OK! So how about we call it volunteering to rid yourself of student debt by volunteering to serve your country?
"but the idea of using some other man's sense of duty to fill your spot and ask him to do what you find so offensive seems to me to be even worse,"Yes, that's pretty despicable. But it's a personal moral failing that isn't corrected by adding a larger government failing on top of it.
That sounds EVER so much more acceptable.
Like the mandatory "volunteer" hours that some high schools were requiring for graduation, so that students would find out how *good* it felt to volunteer.Sounds way more acceptable than just calling it forced labor. No one feels *good* about forced labor.
And really! Let's get creative in "Ways to Serve"!
I'm surprised this draft discussion has gone on so long since it has little bearing on the topic. Is someone trying to change the subject?As I recall the last time the draft was discussed nationally was during the Iraq War. It was a transparent attempt by the Democrats to make the war less popular and draw young people to the Democratic Party.
Years of warning about embassy security preceded Libya attack...I was watching a 9/11 video on the History channel that took disparate videos and put them together in chronological order.. with a clock speeding up to the next time segment for which a video was available.. very compelling.After the first tower collapse it didnt occur to anybody around the remaining tower, lower Manhattan, on news reports... nor anywhere, that the other tower was going to collapse also.There is a dead American in Libya.. has it occurred to anybody that there are more attacks coming... that this just might be the beginning... that maybe we should be getting our people out.If Woodwards book is any clue, Obama is not on top of things.
"If you work for the government for 'X' years, we will forgive your student debts, young doctors, young teachers, young government workers at the state and federal level."
Doesn't bode well for the nation, pro or anti-draft.Settle down, chicken little. 27% of the age 18-26 population is around nine million people.
Read up!That's going to happen, if we let it happen.
Allie Oop wrote:Using contractors in a big way happened when? Under whose administration?Actually it was started in the Clinton Administration as part of the early nineties "peace dividend". Contractors like those supplied by Blackwater cost less than black ops troops like SF, Delta and SEALs because the contracting firms pays for the training, health care, insurance, pension, etc. The calculations are similar to those used to show why contractor-operated penal facilities are often cheaper than state-owned and operated prisons. But this talk of contractors supplying embassy security is irrelevant to the assaults in Cairo and Benghazi. In every case the Ambassador or his deputy must authorize the security detail, be they Blackwater contractors or US Marines, to use force to protect the grounds and personnel. Our brave ambassador to Egypt, Ann Patterson, declined to let her guards defend the compound, so the shame and damage we've sustained there is at least partly her fucking fault, the stupid cowardly bitch. In Benghazi the consulate was guarded by Libyan police, not American contractors or Marines. So whose fucking fault was that? The last Democratic president with balls had a plaque on his desk that read "The Buck Stops Here", meaning that the responsibility rests with the guy in charge. If Obama had a plaque it would read "Bush Took the Buck with Him".(Sorry for all the deletes. I'm fighting an allergy outbreak with meds that make me punchy and hinder my ability to proofread my own typing.)
OK! So how about we call it volunteering to rid yourself of student debt by volunteering to serve your country?Um... you can already earn money for college by joining the military.We could increase the amount, I suppose, but since we already have more volunteers than we need I don't know why we would...
Tipping point?Nearly there, Americans.Forgiveness of student debt for "government service" that is so broadly defined that it includes teachers and doctors?
It seems really strange to have such an arrangement in such a violent place. Like, "Here, set up office in this tent." "A tent? Here? Seriously?" *looks around.* "Am I being punked?" "No, yeah, no, seriously. We're trying to leave as small a military footprint as possible, a sort of 'our door is always open' type of policy."
And all THAT, while we worry about a handful of golden parachutes for corporate execs?IF so? We've collectively lost our minds.
"Settle down, chicken little. 27% of the age 18-26 population is around nine million people."Chicken little?Read too much into something, sometimes?I don't particularly care about this number as it relates to the military; I do care what it means about the relative quality of citizenry.Having served, military eligibility is a pretty low bar to clear, from a "have you got your shit together" perspective.We often complain about the ratio of taxpayers to tax-users tipping to more tax-users than taxpayers.And rightfully so.And I'm guessing, based on observation and common sense, a much higher ratio of the 27% eligible for military service will be taxpayers, and a much higher ratio of the ineligible will turn out to be tax-users.You might think the nine million or so is enough to offset that, but already we know SS and Medicare don't have enough workers per beneficiary; is one taxpaying worker enough to carry three beneficiaries?I'm thinking not, but your math must surely support your "chicken little" assessment.
Rev?Care to rethink your comments?
"A tent? Here? Seriously?" *looks around.* "Am I being punked?" HELL no!You're being FedExed. ;)
All American Embassy are protected by Marines,......This obvious dodge by the liberals on this site to divert the story away from the Obama adminstration leaving the American Ambassador defenless in a nation that half the population hated America for siding with the other half and the half we liberated hated us before they liked us for 2 months. Oh and this same population likes to kill their diplomats and drag their asses through the streets like a deer kill.Oh and it was the anniverrity of the worse attack on American soil , ever in our history, and funnily enough by the same crowd, I gues they decid America needed another reason to mourn the ninth month and the eleventh day of every year.And they thought 33 year and Carter should not be the last time a American Ambassador was murdered in the line of duty for all the world to see.
Which is why I always preferred UPS.Least you had to get through that capital P.
And I'm guessing, based on observation and common sense, a much higher ratio of the 27% eligible for military service will be taxpayers, and a much higher ratio of the ineligible will turn out to be tax-users.Given that around 10% of that nine million actually wind up *in* the military -- and thus become "tax-users" in a big, big way -- that seems highly unlikely.You're also assuming that "physically unfit for the army" somehow correlates to not being a taxpayer, even though the vast majority of tax revenue comes from people with sedentary white-collar jobs, most of whom are overweight.
Which supposedly stands for "Parcel"?Although I've always thought the UPS guys look like they're in the army?
In any case, they are NOT FedEx.That's like an oxymoron, unless you "die in the service of" OR retire.
Change the subject..An American was killed in Libya..Change the subject..OK.. Romney criticizes Obama's handling?Now were talking... But there is a dead American in ...The Draft!But there is a dead American...Did you know I have a daughter in the military? ..there is a dead American... I never said that... find the link where I said that.....there is a dead... never mind.
Obama's foreign policy led to this mess. (To be fair, it's a mess with a history a couple of hundred years long, but it does get better and worse.)The question is, do we think Obama's crew-in-position will make it better or worse. Because frankly, this crew doesn't seem to think creatively.
Open mic captures press coordinating questions for Romney “no matter who he calls on we’re covered”“No matter who he calls on we’re covered".
Look at Lem trying to lasso the night owls back to where Althouse wanted us to go in the first place!
Cool!Just never figured that Lem was a "process" kinda guy?
Should have ended my last sentence with a period.
And I would have, if I still got one!
HahaOld vagina humor!
These people are apparently annoyed by being in our debt. Obama saved Libya's ass and this is the thanks he gets. I could be wrong but in general I think our response should be not to let them owe us anything.
In all seriousness, Lem.Took me a long time to have ANY sense of humor about death whatsoever.Now?It's finally become the cheaper, generic drug.
very great content
Aside from illness deaths.Aside from longevity deaths.Who's adding up the numbers of deaths in American inner cities and comparing that to death by INTERNATIONAL warfare? Including, of course, the sad and untimely death of this patriot, Ambassador Stevens.
Allie,Using contractors in a big way happened when?Under George Washington.Under whose administration?The colonies defeated the most powerful nation on earth.Mercenaries and contractors have been used extensively throughout US history. Of course, you actually have to know the history to know the history. Or you can just make assumption and innuendos. What the hell, right? It's like the left takes the truth or facts serious. Fake, but true and the orwellian "truthiness".
very nice postanuragago azamazama brahmb darsansite hohasite jaypalblog mokshablogs nikatblogsite sadaramsite sayeeblog
Easier to pay attention to what is happening "over there" >>>>>>>>>
And that main stream media? It SUCKS!.... over there >>>>>>
Obama believes his own stuff too much.He really thought his speech in Cairo changed the Muslim world. He thinks he is a better speech writer than his own writers, he thinks he is better at policy than his advisors. He thought he was going to carry Democrats to win the house in 2010. He believes that what he does is so solid there is no need to question it.So it's pretty easy to imagine that Obama thought because *he* had helped Libya, *he* had secured the trust and gratitude of the nation, and so locking down the consulate just wasn't necessary. It was, after all, Obama's American Consulate in Libya.
9/11-12/12 - the days/events about which I transitioned from being an anti-Obama voter to a pro-Romney voter.It seems like every hour, I achieved new levels of infuriation.This is not good for my blood pressure.9/12/1683--Jan Sobieski improbably wins the Battle of Vienna, preventing the advance of the Ottoman Turks into Western Europe to spread the Islamic domination. Our Lady of Chestahowa (sp), pray for us.
Now our embassy in Yemen is under attack. Are we going to talk about this, America?
Amen, good lady.AllieOop said...Honor, duty, countryNo - Duty, Honor, Country.The motto of West Point.Lem said...Change the subject..An American was killed in Libya..Change the subject..OK.. Romney criticizes Obama's handling?Now were talking... But there is a dead American in ...The Draft!But there is a dead American...Did you know I have a daughter in the military? ..there is a dead American... I never said that... find the link where I said that.....there is a dead... never mind.Exactly. The trolls know this is a bigger disaster than the jobs report and are desperate to obfuscate things.I'm just surprised so many still take Oop at his/her/its word.
I find it more than a little dishonest that the people wanting a draft are the same people who want to cut funding for the military.We have plenty of volunteers. We could have a military twice the size we have now, still 100% volunteer, if we just lower standards slightly.We could allow those with non-violent police records to join. We could allow those without a GED or high school diploma to join, and help them get their GED after they sign up.We are currently turning away people who have too many tattoos.Yep: we are turning away people for mere appearance issues.So if the lefties ever want a bigger, even more effective military, they need to stop starving the DoD of funds.The same increase in funds we'd need if they started the draft back up.I don't think I should hold my breath for it though. Calling for the reinstitution of the draft is nothing more than a political ploy.
Is anyone still buying that these embassy protests and attacks are in response to a film nobody has seen?
Romney was right, so says... Obama.So, now can someone convince the media that we should focus on the dead people instead of the horse race?
Per CNN, Yemen embassy breached.
The image that the American people will take away from this tragedy, I suspect, is the dead body of the American ambassador paraded thru the streets--Media attacks on Governor Romney will have no traction except for the true believers. Mr Obama's foreign policy is on the same level as his economic policy: failure on both accounts. Fire this turkey on November 6.
Er... well, per the CNN headline on the article. I didn't see a mention of Yemen when I scanned the article.
The image that the American people will take away from this tragedy, I suspect, is the dead body of the American ambassador paraded thru the streets--Media attacks on Governor Romney will have no traction except for the true believers.Most people get their images from their local news. The local news gets most of their images and stories from the NY Times.The NY Times buried this story on page A4 the day after the events.
Low expectations! So glad 'folks' are beginning to notice.Today's media is irreparably broken for it has been infiltrated by leftist rubes that desire only to belong to the 'club'. The coordinated 'scrutiny' of Mr. Romney and his opinions is an apt example.None of what is now transpiring among the middle eastern troglodytes would have occurred before 2008. Having a substitute teacher ensures chaos and disorder.
Tom Lifson at American Thinker sums it up [with my bolding]:This morning, Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, and President Obama all made statements on the death of Ambassador Stevens. To my eyes and ears, Romney was by far the strongest, expressing his disgust over the embassy response in Cairo, which he properly noted was the Obama administration response. In diplomacy, an embassy speaks for the president. If the OBama administration cannot control and coordinate its displomatic apparatus, it is too incompetent to be trusted with national security.Only Romney had the guts to take questions from the press, which were nearly all hostile. He stood his ground, and looked strong. Obama sounded scripted, and walked away as reporters shouted questions. So far as we know, we are still borrowing money from China to give to Egypt. I hope Romney comes out and challenges Obama to cut aid to Egypt.Not only was the press's questioning of Romney hostile, it was pre-arranged that way.And why has Obama been given a pass on giving so few press conference and taking so few substantive questions? It's just more kid-glove, affirmative-action treatment. The press knows Obama can't take it and they are in the bag in for him.
Creeley: It isn't any thing as craven as that. It is simple: Republicans will rarely, if ever, cut off access from the press. Democrats will do it at the drop of the hat, often blacklisting interviewers and networks they dislike in retaliation. If you want access, you learn quickly which politicians will cut it off and which will grant it.Journalism should not run on a patronage system like art in the Renaissance age. Sadly, it does.That's why when McCain froze out the NYT after their slanderous article alleging an affair was so shocking. Republicans are much less likely to react in such a hostile manner. Yes, they'll speak out and say meaner things about the press than the left, but taking actual steps to interfere with journalists? Much less likely.Which leads to this weird relationship where a guy with no actual executive power over our embassies is asked harder questions than the president.
"Yes, they'll speak out and say meaner things about the press than the left, but taking actual steps to interfere with journalists? Much less likely."Leftists use the press to disseminate their propaganda while manipulating access as you have pointed out.If you don't play nice with leftists, they deny access. Just another way they seek to silence dissent.So, many in the press are in a tough spot - they risk their jobs if they don't parrot the talking points.Facism, a key feature of the left.
Media attacks on Governor Romney will have no traction except for the true believers. Roger J: I'd like to think so, but the true believers are, from what I read, 47% of Americans and include most of the media, academia, and Hollywood.There is much shrieking now about Romney -- not radical Muslims, not al-Qaeda, not the State Dept, not Hillary Clinton, and not Obama -- but about Romney.It isn't any thing as craven as that.Matthew: It looks craven to me, craven and biased.OK, fine Republicans won't cut off access, but my question remains: Why is Obama given a pass on giving so few press conferences and answering so few substantive questions?A month ago the White Office press corps got a little antsy about when Obama might next answer their questions, but nothing came of that. Perhaps we should call them the press corpse.In the meantime Obama talks to "Pimp with a Limp" on 9-11.Disgraceful.
I'm not sure what Freeman was alluding to, but this country is not an oppressive regime, it's still worth defendingObviously. Sometimes I feel like you are a patience test that I am always on the verge of failing.
Freeman, Sometimes I wonder if you couldn't possibly try to be yet even more sanctimonious, then I'm surprised, why YES, yes she can!
I agree with Freeman. A draft borders on tyrannical.
Tunisia embassy also attacked.Smart power.
Look, at some point, we have to stop asking if Romney's response was too fast that it embarrassed the President and start focusing on: What is the president and his administration doing to keep our embassies from being over run by hostile forces?I know no one in the media -likes- talking about serious topics, but, you know, maybe they should try it.
Free online dictionaries are available.
While we are discussing how tyrannical the draft is, we are being attacked by Islamic peoples all over the ME.We've been insulated from attack except for a few instances which did bring us to our senses for a while, then Zzzzzz, back to sleep. Now another wake up call.
Free online dictionaries are available.I know, I should have said either "tyranny" or "the tyrannical". But I was focused on my soup.
MayBee, I wasn't correcting you.
What?... did I spell sanctimonious wrong?
I don't care about spelling. I care about meaning though.
So now that these attacks are popping off all over the place, what will Obama do?
Again , that's your right, you are a Freeman after all.
It's my right to care about what words mean? True enough. Luckily, it isn't limited to my family members with the surname Freeman.
"While we are discussing how tyrannical the draft is, we are being attacked by Islamic peoples all over the ME."-- So stop talking about it and start focusing on the questions I asked. Namely: What is the president and his administration doing to keep our embassies from being over run by hostile forces?
How will Ol' Blood and Guts Oop serve? Probably she'll just take credit for others service.
Perhaps brave X will have enough guts to not hide behind a screen initial, rise to the surface and be a fish among sharks, not a bottom feeder.
So now that these attacks are popping off all over the place, what will Obama do?I'm guessing that providing leadership won't be on the top of his list. Yesterday he traveled to Vegas to campaign.
BUT if we are attacked in a big wayBy whom?Outside of the Chinese deciding to invade, you're not looking at any symmetrical warfare anytime soon.Wars of the future (even though we technically are in a World War now) won't be fought with the same types of armies we have now nor have in the past.
This is fascinating. Freeman and MayBee usually make sense, but this notion that you don't need to serve in defense of your country is completely baffling to me. 1970's college grads? Too much pot and rock'n roll?It is technology that has outdated the draft. There is no such thing as a D-Day invasion anymore; it is about nuclear-tipped ICBM's for a major nation war or the modern version of "Queen Victori's little wars" for smaller stuff, neither of which are fought with "citizen armies."However, the notion that the draft was "tyrannical" is clear out of left field.
I do wonder if mandatory conscription service would help unite the country a little more.There's no greater melting pot than the Armed Forces.
but this notion that you don't need to serve in defense of your country is completely baffling to me.No one argued that. It is a good and necessary thing to come to the defense of one's country in most cases. It is not a good and necessary thing to force people to do so at gunpoint.
EMD,The Russians and the Chinese are not interested in committing suicide; MAD still rules with them, but one or more of the "asymmetrical" movements may well get hold of nuclear devices and attack us "in a big way," and the question is, what do we do then?These people are not entirely rational and not necessarily controlled by the nations harboring them, certainly not to the extent the governments of those countries think they do. Do we still hold those countries collectively responsible?
No, Freeman, when your country calls, you go. Into the army or off to jail.That is the way it was. No time for arguing.
Conscientious objectors served as well, instead of going to jail. There is a true story of one in WW2 that ended up being quite heroic.
Dr. Weevil: My source for that was ADM William Crowe, former Chairman of the JCS and my Ambassador in London 1994-97. You can take up your argument with his shade.
WW 2 conscientious objector buried with 21 Gun Salute
I was born and raised in Norway and came to this country on a permanent visa with the declared intent of becoming a citizen. That included the possibility - actually a virtual certainty at the time - of being drafted into the US Army and serving at the direction of the United States Government without any discussion whatever about whether I personally agreed with that Government's policies and, if necessary, even in a conflict with my native country (that, of course, was a very remote possibility, but I thought about it and made my decision before coming here).
Allie: Using contractors in a big way happened when? Does the term "letter of marque and reprisal" ring a bell?
This just in: foreign born older woman that declined to serve favors draft that won't touch her for young Americans.
John Burgess:What kind of excuse is that? If Adm. Crowe was in the habit of repeating an ignorant falsehood that he might easily have checked, that makes it OK for you to do the same? Your claim just makes Crowe look like an idiot. A man who was "Senior Adviser to the Vietnamese Navy Riverine Force" in 1970 (Wikipedia) and promoted to Admiral during the Vietnam War (1973) didn't know that a dozen generals and admirals were killed in the very war in which he was himself a high-ranking participant? Truly amazing. Your excuse does not excuse you at all: it just makes it look like we have two idiots here, you and Crowe.
Allie: Why are we depending on private contractors to do the job the military used to do?The cynical answer? Because there would be less (or no) outrage if mercenaries instead of Marines were lynched and their bodies dragged through the streets.
Hagar said...This is fascinating. Freeman and MayBee usually make sense, but this notion that you don't need to serve in defense of your country is completely baffling to me. 1970's college grads? Too much pot and rock'n roll?Hence my suggestion to call up the militia by states. I don't think it's legal to send them overseas, but they could take up the slack here at home.An interesting question; If the governor calls out the militia, are the citizens obligated to show up?
An interesting question; If the governor calls out the militia, are the citizens obligated to show up?Well. Technically, probably yes. But I think you would pretty quickly run into some serious practical limits on the power of law enforcement. Never forget that the gun-toting members of law enforcement are a very tiny fraction of the population. There is no way they will be able to force the public to do something the public really, really doesn't want to do.
Rusty does touch on an interesting question.The National Guard is kind of a relic holdover from the old days, and I do not think it is right to call them up for our "little wars" around the world the way we have been doing for the last several decades.I do think we need a considerably larger "standing army" (including swabbies, flyboys, and whatever is now called for) of professionals, and we need to pay for it.
my son in law the Capitalist,I don't tend to label my kids. That's strange.
EMD, I differentiate my children and children in law by employing identifying and descriptive terminology, I believe that is my right.I have several children and children in law.And I adore my son in law, the Capitalist, as HE calls himself, BTW.
Outside of the Chinese deciding to invade, you're not looking at any symmetrical warfare anytime soon.The Chinese have just barely reached the point where if they invaded Taiwan they would win. That's within the last year or two. They have no way to even get to the US unless Mexico or Canada invited them in for staging, something which we would take a dim and probably kinetic view of.If we wanted to adopt an isolationist foreign policy we could safely do so with a much, much smaller military.
Well turns out that security forces and marine corp attachments to these embassies were not allowed to carry live ammo? Can this be corroborated?
AllieOop said... Israel has mandatory military service for both males and females, tyrannical?Mandatory service is not a draft. It's mandatory and also one that Israel honors and celebrates. Also, it is in their best interests to have a near total militarized population. They are a tiny sliver of democracy in the Mid-East surrounded by their enemies. Their mandatory service is what is best for them as a societal determination. It's not tyrannical.
Mandatory service is not a draft. It's mandatory and also one that Israel honors and celebrates.That's a semantic distinction. It's a draft, though they don't draft Muslims or Orthodox Jews. Nearly everyone who was ever in and who's healthy enough to fight is in the reserves, too.As you say, the Israelis are in a much different security situation than we are. Every dawn brings with it the possibility of an existential threat level conventional conflict for Israel, whereas nukes are the only thing that threaten US soil.
"If the choice is between conscription and expecting others to do my duty, conscript me, force me at gunpoint. Libertarian does not mean getting others to cover your responsibilities to your fellow man."That's nice in theory and everything, but I would rather have a military that is highly motivated and not doing just the minimum to get by while waiting for the enlistment to end. "Mandatory service is not a draft. It's mandatory and also one that Israel honors and celebrates.That's a semantic distinction. It's a draft, though they don't draft Muslims or Orthodox Jews. Nearly everyone who was ever in and who's healthy enough to fight is in the reserves, too."And as others have pointed out, Israel has a much different security problem than we do. When Canada and Mexico start tossing missiles over the border and massing troops, I expect voluntary enlistment would go up drastically. Not to mention all the civilians with rifles. I dont see a problem with AllieOop mentioning her daughter. I disagree with her on pretty much everything, but I see nothing wrong with a mother being proud of her daughter volunteering for the military.
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