August 8, 2012

Romney campaign expresses pride in Romneycare.

Surprising and good response to that powerful Obama ad that we've been talking about in this earlier post.

I really think that it's not enough for Romney supporters to say Romney wasn't personally responsible for the decision that led to this man's loss of his job. Romney's business was to do practical and efficient things that result in some people losing their jobs, and he needs us to be able to believe that's just fine — that the purpose of business is to make money, not to take care of people and that's what works out for the best in a system of capitalism.

But then what happens to people who lose their insurance, like this poor man whose wife learned too late that she had cancer? We feel empathy to him and he stimulates legitimate fears that we have about ourselves and people we love. It's not enough for the Romney campaign to fiddle around with the details about Romney's connection to this man's losing his job and when and why the cancer killed his wife.

We're looking at a specific man but a generic problem: People not seeking treatment because they don't have insurance and don't want to spend their own money going to the doctor until it's an emergency. Obamacare is one answer to this problem, and Romney's position is that he will end it. He needs to inspire confidence in what he would do instead. Today, we see Romney pointing proudly Romneycare, which the Obama campaign normally uses against him. It's a credential, not an embarrassment all of a sudden.

105 comments:

sydney said...

This does not make me feel good about Romney. I fear he is not sincere about repealing Obamacare. Or, if he does repeal it, he will replace it with something very similar. I wish I could get my campaign donation back.

BarrySanders20 said...

It is a credential now that the primary is over. Romney knew that which is why he never backed off of it when challenged by those to his right. He claculated, correctly, that he would win, and he knew he could use Romneycare in the general.

The strongest opposition to Romney in the primary is also the strongest opposition to Obama. They are not going to vote for Obama.

Will they stay home? Romney doen't think so, so is free to go after the middle on this issue. It's pretty safe territory.

jimbino said...

If you don't have insurance, you still pay for the health care of others through the generous tax deduction given the insured and the >50% of healthcare funding provided by federal, state and local governments.

A uninsured person who needs health care in an emergency or a cancer has already paid some 70% of the bill when he walks into the clinic door. The price he's charged for care should reflect this. To the extent that it doesn't, this uninsured person is subsidizing the insurance of others and being denied the care he has paid for.

Carnifex said...

Speaking from experience here. The same thing happened to me as happened to this guy. Lost job, lost insurance, couldn't afford to buy it because of pre-existing condition. So, when my hernias strangled my bowels 5 years ago I paid it off as much as i could over time. The hospital forgave my debt so I just owed the surgeons. Now that it has happened again, I will pay it off as I can. It's all I can do.

traditionalguy said...

This is a difficult one. It is Saint Santorum's prophecy come true.

Health Insurance is a need. National Health Care is a disaster. Who wants to explain that one.

They need Sarah Palin at times like this. Mitt's "trust me schtick" lacks the personal leadership display at moments like this.

Andy R. said...

Yes, Romney's answer that people who are facing health problems should move to Massachusetts and take advantage of the fantastic program there is a great solution for America.

Bender said...

Well, that's TWO people who think it was a good answer, rather than the utter disaster that everyone else sees it for what it really is.

AJ Lynch said...

Romneycare could have been some form of catastrophic coverage which is what most people should want anyway. That would have covered this woman no matter what her employment status.

Bender said...

Etch-A-Sketch politics.

Go ahead, Romney-bots, and tell us again how Romney really did mean it when he said he would fight hard to repeal ObamaCare.

Andy R. said...

This is one of the moments where Republicans can regret that every single other candidate in their primary was a total unserious joke.

Picking the guy that created the blueprint for Obamacare to run against Obamacare could only seem like a good idea if every other possible choice was even dumber than Sarah Palin.

VeganBoy said...

We're missing a major point here: She had insurance when she died. The ad was a lie. So why does the Romney camp have to "fiddle" around answering this quasi murder charge?

Jack Wayne said...

Your post is so pendantically reasoned that I lost interest in it. You see the trees not the forest. It is NOT the government's job to take of people's health care. The European disaster shows this is a plan that doesn't work. Of course, people like you make it impossible for a politician to say this. Which is why we are speeding as fast as we can to the same cliff the Euros have already jumped off of.

Smilin' Jack said...

Romney campaign expresses pride in Romneycare.

Which, remember, is totally different from Obamacare because...uhh...umm....Look, a Federalist!!

edutcher said...

I think the Romster knew from the starting gate any attempt to renounce it would have been fatal, so you make the best of a bad situation.

Anyone who reads what the story of Romneycare was knows the Romster fought to keep costs and taxes down.

He was facing one of the most Left-wing state legislatures in the country and did what he could in the face of what was a fait accompli.

The issue is whether people think he did enough.

PS I do think he will move to repeal ObamaTax, simply because of the message it will send economically. It will also clean up the economic landscape.

Andy R. said...

This is one of the moments where Republicans can regret that every single other candidate in their primary was a total unserious joke.


No, the total unserious joke is the SCOAMF on the democrat side.

Picking the guy that created the blueprint for Obamacare to run against Obamacare could only seem like a good idea if every other possible choice was even dumber than Sarah Palin.

Yeah, she's so dumb she kicked Barry's ass on ObamaTax and is 7 for 9 in endorsements.

wyo sis said...

This makes me so angry. Republicans are going to lose this election. Just when you think he's got it right finally, his campaign does something stupid like this. Another McCain and another four years of Obama. If this is really the direction this is going and not a stupid ploy I'm going to have a hard time holding my nose even to get a Republican for the next SC appointments.

garage mahal said...

Sort of ridiculous that the Republican candidate would have to run away from a successful health care program.

I'm glad to see Romney running to the middle. We'll be better off as a country.

Almost makes me think he would appoint some real squishy moderate no-label living Constitution justice to the bench too!

Has the Tea Party Fever finally broken?

garage mahal said...

But, as always, I'll wait for Jay and his expert analysis before going any further.

Franklin said...

Stop being contrarian just to be contrarian. Althouse isn’t Slate.

This was a gaffe by someone who should know better.

Matthew Sablan said...

Garage: Any illusion that McCain, or Romney, are further from the center than Obama is just silliness talking. You can argue Obama was about as close to the center as some of the more right leaning potential candidates. But Romney and McCain's biggest knocks in the primaries were that they were too close to the center for conservative's comfort.

Any one who honestly believes Obama is closer to the center part of center-left is not using the words the same way most would.

Carnifex said...

Romney didn't make that woman ill. Someone else had a hand in it.

The Meme

I'd say Romney probably saved lives by shutting done the mill that was causing all these cancers.

Or maybe, just maybe, shit happens and you deal with it. Not go crying to the nannystate every time you stub your toe.

Bryan C said...

I'd have preferred that they shot down the ad as an inflammatory and dishonest fabrication. Since that's what it is. Maybe that's next.

As for this response, it's always dangerous to argue on someone else's dishonest terms. Liars don't actually have to win -- they can just move their lies around until you lose. I guarantee you that this statement will rapidly be re-parsed into an endorsement of Obamacare.

It's a legitimate way to appeal to someone who finds merit in general concept, as seen in Romneycare, but who has misgivings about how this Obamacare thing is going. Unfortunately, the media isn't the least bit interested in even acknowledging the many failings of Obamacare. You're stuck arguing against yet another set of false premises. This obviously makes it difficult to gain any traction when debating the relative merits of these two different approaches.

Tom Spaulding said...

Who gives a shit?

Your other choice is Barack Obama for another four years.

QED

ndspinelli said...

What is interesting to me is Obama had a man making a blatantly emotional appeal and Romney has a woman making a factual appeal. Did I fall down the rabbit hole?

shiloh said...

Tread lightly mittens as you don't want to piss off die hard cons who despise mittenscare lol.

ok, ok, not to worry as Romney will change his mind at the next campaign stop!

rhhardin said...

We feel empathy to him and he stimulates legitimate fears that we have about ourselves and people we love.

This is why we don't want women voting.

Tim said...

"Romney Expresses Pride in Romney Care"

And I'll express pride in voting for Gary Johnson.

shiloh said...

btw, lotta blue ...

garage mahal said...

If Romney were smart they would attack Obama from the left. There is a warehouse full of ammo to do it with. Stupid trade deals, medical pot crackdowns, Wall St bailouts, surveillance, kill lists, drone warfare, Afghanistan, flaccid support for trade unions, etc. Will they do it? Doubt it.

Cedarford said...

Barry Sanders - "The strongest opposition to Romney in the primary is also the strongest opposition to Obama. They are not going to vote for Obama.

Will they stay home? Romney doen't think so, so is free to go after the middle on this issue. It's pretty safe territory."

===============
Agree!
Besides the dynamics of the race obviously favoring going for the middle even if it upsets a frothing at the mouth Santorum backer......
The Far Right is relatively oblivious to the need to come up with an alternative to Obamacare. They may hate Obamacare - it was a Democrat entitlement transfer program after all - but the Far Right Idiots completely forget that one of the reasons Obama was a elected was a majority of voters strongly believed the Pre-Obama healthcare system was seriously broke, overly expensive, isurance companies were ripping us off, lawyers too.

If you figure the "best Amurica healthcare. envy of the world efore Obama" right-wing idiots will vote for Romney grudgingly anyways, the message to the middle is this:

1. Obamacare failed because it didn't create a better, more efficient system.
2. Obama and Pelosi refused to deal with it in a bipartisan fashion and failed to listen to reasonable concerns and fixes for Obamacare suggested by Republicans, independents, and even moderate Democrats.
3. Mitt Romney will go at fixing healthcare working as he did in Massachusetts...listening to all sides and trying to get the best result for all Americans, and that will be a different solution than what the voters of Mass wanted, got, and are mostly happy with.
4. We need a President who can bring all parties together and work on a fix. Mitt Romney can do that...he is an experienced leader in working through problems that have differing opinions in significant numbers of people that can't be steamrollered over like Obama did. It isn't enough just to repeal Obamacare. The system that existed before that was unacceptable to voters.

ricpic said...

Take off the gloves, Romney!...Romney!...Romney!...nope, he didn't hear me. He's way up there with the nice, respectable people, who never hear me. And then they lose and say "Wha' Hoppen?!" Wha' Hoppen is you're not hungry enough. You can always go back to nice and respectable and comfortable. And that's the problem.

Matthew Sablan said...

There is no point to attack Obama from the left. Look at all the things that Garage points out. The left, however, has proven to be willing to lay down and vote for those who abuse their ideals for power time and time again. You don't have nascent Tea Party like groups on the left voting out incumbents, and even voting out people like Mike Castle who would have been good political, if iffy ideologically.

The left has surrendered its ideals for power; reminding them of it just makes the right smile. But, get the left to vote out some of their scummier members, then we'll think it is actually a viable strategy.

shiloh said...

C4 ... keep hope alive! :)

Michael K said...

I suppose that only doctors and policy wonks know just how bad Obamacare is. It has all the wrong incentives. It puts 30% of the population into Medicaid which is a terrible program. Massachusetts is a rich and left-leaning state that wanted to try what became "Romneycare." Obamacare is Hillarycare only worse.

One thing you can tell about these government programs. When they make it illegal to offer private care, you know there is a reason why they don't want competition from private enterprise.

Canada started out that way and that is why so many Canadian doctors left. Now the Canadian supreme court has ruled that they cannot outlaw private care. If this country offered a government program and allowed private care alongside it, there would be fewer complaints.

All of these government programs become compulsory and ban private service. France is the exception and that is why the quality is still good in France. One of the real problems for France is that so many British have retired there and they can't get them to go home to England for medical care.

I don't know why Romney is recommending Romneycare for this woman but at least he is honest. WE haven't seen honesty from Obama in years, well before he was president.

Cedarford said...

Tim said...
"Romney Expresses Pride in Romney Care"

And I'll express pride in voting for Gary Johnson.

============
Might as well not waste your vote in a stupid protest no one cares about and cast it for Obama straight to ensure Obamacare will be with you the rest of your sorry life.

There is a word for the crowd that comes out each election aftermath and says "Don't blame me, I voted for Ralph Nader, or - I voted for Mickey Mouse, or - I voted for Gary Johnson".

Idiots.

AprilApple said...

What Michael K said.

Cedarford said...

It isn't enough just run on a promise to repeal Obamacare. The system that existed before that was unacceptable to voters.

It's just that simple.

But the fixes will not be simple at all. And it will take an executive leader like Romney (with some very savvy people with background in this like Jindal) that can sit down with all parties and address the major flaws of both Obamacare and the broken, ruinously expensive, insurer and drug firm ripoff, and lots of dead from lack of care - US system that existed before Obamacare made it even worse.

Not enough to say you will destroy Obamacare. You have to have a vision and gain confidence that on Day one of a Romney Administration that the typical voter does not feel in peril if it is changed.

Bryan C said...

"Which, remember, is totally different from Obamacare because...uhh...umm....Look, a Federalist!!"

Do you grow weary 'neath the yoke of responsibility? Do you wish to be rid of citizenship's thorny crown? Do your feet stumble upon the uneven path of sovereign self-governance? Rejoice, for the grace and wisdom of Washington DC transcend the boundaries of any mere state's understanding. Surrender your burdens of freedom and choice, my child, and embrace the true joy which can be found only in The One.

edutcher said...

shiloh said...

btw, lotta blue ...

Lotta bull, more like it.

Peacock/WSJ skewed 5 points in favor of the Demos.

Black Rock/Gray Lady/Q-Pac skewed 10 points in favor of the Demos.

Pew skewed 20 points in favor of the Demos.

The little animal shows his desperation.

Still waiting for those rebuttals.

Cedarford said...

And if there is a bipartisan solution, you can bet it will leave the "free care for all illegals" Leftists upset, and leave the trial lawyers upset, and leave Right Wingers rabidly angry that there will be some price wars on the excessive costs of Freedom-Loving Drug Companies, nursing home operators, kindly hospital and clinic owners.

An end to free power scooter chairs for seniors living in a multimillion dollar home or two with wads of other financial resources.

gbarto said...

I actually think there's a good point here. As governor, Romney dealt with this in Massachussetts in a way that made sense in Massachussetts. And as President, he would let your state government deal with it in a way that makes sense for your state. That's completely different from Obamacare - the government requires you to implement its plan "voluntarily" or it will implement it for you. I personally have no problem with someone arguing that liberal states can be liberal, conservative states can be conservative and instead of a federal government homogenizing everything, you can pick what kind of state you want to live in or put up with.

AprilApple said...

It took patience and time, but the dedicated left destroyed the private health care system so that we can all stand back and whine about how corrupt drug companies are and how expensive hospital stays are. etc... How each government patch is so horrid we need another. The grand fix is just around corner. It's just beyond reach. We will find it in the next batch of government regulations, controls, taxes and encyclopedia-length, unread, passed-in-the-middle-of-the-night- on-party-line-vote laws. Next time the government will fix it. Promise.

Chuck said...

As an attorney who practices in medical malpractice litigation, the story of the grieving husband made no sense to me in terms of proximate causation.

Sure, the fact that the family was without health insurance (is employment the only possible way to obtain health care insurance or even health care?) probably caused some anxiety. There is anxiety in life.

But the notion that it caused the woman's death (seemingly from an aggressive form of cancer that killed her within weeks of a diagnosis) would likely be a preposterous notion to specialists in cancer treatment. Cancer does not occur, and is not cured, in such timeframes.

Health insurance, I very strongly suspect, is not a maeningful issue in this case.

Hagar said...

I have read - and right here on this blog, I think - that the "Romneycare" in Massachusetts actually is more the MA Legislature's program than Romney's, i.e. Romney submitted a proposed program and the Legislature went to work on it and inserted the most noxious features, which Gov. Romney then vetoed, and the Legislature promptly overrode his vetoes.

If that is the way it was, it might be too complicated to explain in 30-second soundbites, but I do think the Romney campaign should come up with some way to counter the charges rather than meekly accept ownership of "Romneycare."

Jay said...

I really think that it's not enough for Romney supporters to say Romney wasn't personally responsible for the decision that led to this man's loss of his job

I think it is tragic we live in a society where the leaders of one of the majority political parties say such things.

And of course their reality based community followers believe them.

I Callahan said...

Go ahead, Romney-bots, and tell us again how Romney really did mean it when he said he would fight hard to repeal ObamaCare.

I'm with you Bender. I tried to tell them.

As for this response, it's always dangerous to argue on someone else's dishonest terms.

Which is what the GOP has done for the past 50 years, which is why they've only slowed the leftward lurch down when in office, as opposed to moving us back to the right.

Who gives a shit? Your other choice is Barack Obama for another four years.

Same bullshit I heard for Ford, Bush, Dole, Bush II, and McCain. When do we stop using the same fucking excuse and finally set standards for our choices?

Is it any wonder we keep going downhill?

Jay said...

Andy R. said...
Yes, Romney's answer that people who are facing health problems should move to Massachusetts and take advantage of the fantastic program there is a great solution for America.


And of course that isn't "Romney's answer" and nobody said any such thing.

Note: you are utterly incapable of criticizing Democrats in any manner under any circumstances.

edutcher said...

One thing to keep in mind about the ad is that it seems to be blowing up in the Demos' faces.

PS ric needs to remember the Romster can't spend all the money he's collected until he's officially the nominee.

edutcher said...

PPS Anybody who stays home or votes for Gary Johnson loses his right to bitch about the next 4 years.

shiloh said...

I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was.

mittens continual flip/flopping and Obama having everything Romney's primary opponents said about him at the ready notwithstanding ...

The great thing about the Rep's current RINO nominee ~ it's such a target rich environment. :)

Indeed, as one can say anything they want about mittens 'cause it was probably true at one point in time lol.

>

Oh what a tangled web willard tries to weave ...

Hagar said...

And, of course, "Obamacare" was rammed through Congress by Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, neither of which will head their respective Houses come January, and funding for "Obamacare" will be a "tax" measure.

Congress is going to have to fix the mess it has created, whoever is President will have influence certainly, but in the end it will be sign the bill or take the consquences.

Tom Spaulding said...

There is nothing that Mitt Romney or any Romney surrogate can say or do that would cause me to not vote for him in November.

Nothing.

Ever.

ndspinelli said...

Chuck, Welcome and good logical point about insurance. Too bad this race is, to this point, about emotion

shiloh said...

"There is nothing that Mitt Romney or any Romney surrogate can say or do that would cause me to not vote for him in November.

Nothing.

Ever."

Thanx for sharing ...

I Callahan said...

PPS Anybody who stays home or votes for Gary Johnson loses his right to bitch about the next 4 years.

Disclaimer first: I'll hold my nose and vote for Romney, provided he doesn't turn hard left from now to the end of the year.

That said, I'll never understand the logic your statement. If you think Romney will continue to move the country to the left (albeit in a slightly slower pace than Obama), what difference does it really make? If you hit a wall at 100 mph vs 70 mph, chances are you're dead either way.

Tom Spaulding said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AprilApple said...

It would be nice if Romney would remind voters how ObamaCare was passed.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...
Has the Tea Party Fever finally broken?



If you ignore the primary results in Texas, Kansas, and Missouri, sure!

Tom Spaulding said...

Thanx for sharing ...

It's the whole point of having comments.

Thanx for typing like a 12 yr old girl.

tim maguire said...

Everything we do has a ripple effect. We hold each other responsible for the 1st and maybe the 2nd layer of effects. No employer should be held responsible for the rest of the life of an employee they laid off.

Nobody believes the argument Obama is making in this ad--and that's the response Romney should give.

Michael K said...

"It took patience and time, but the dedicated left destroyed the private health care system so that we can all stand back and whine about how corrupt drug companies are and how expensive hospital stays are. etc..."

Doctors, acting in our own short term interests, had a lot to do with where we are now. I have a series of blog posts on this including why I think the French system is better.

The best site on this is here and goes into much more detail, including the problems and dangers of Obamacare, which is still being written.

Amartel said...

Obama's ad (and entire career for that matter) is a cynical and dishonest appeal to emotion. It's not a powerful ad once you unpack the lies. Nobody likes to be manipulated so exposing the manipulation is not fiddling. Or Romney could do the exact same ad using some sad old person who lost his or her benefits because Obama was favoring his union cronies. Maybe he already has.

Romney's response was really bad and he needs to improve his game.
Weak-minded people who want to be taken care of by Big Mommy Government will vote for Obama, that's a given. Forget about them. Don't try to win them over with Romneycare. It just pisses off people who dislike Government Healthcare of all stripes, but more importantly it shows that Romney is far too willing to punt.

Bender said...

Improve his game?

This is his game.

Romney is PROUD of his Number One Liability.

This just goes to show that whoever wins in November, come January 20, conservatives will have an opponent in the White House.

Cedarford said...

I Callahan said...
Go ahead, Romney-bots, and tell us again how Romney really did mean it when he said he would fight hard to repeal ObamaCare.

I'm with you Bender. I tried to tell them
=================
He will repeal Obamacare by giving states the option to take it or not. And most states won't.

The problem is that is is not enough to just repeal Obamacare as the US system before that was determined by most voters to be broken and in need of desperate measures to control costs and get more people able to afford insurance.

The Right wing answer - "Look, we have the greatest system in the world and if you just get rid of the dang lawyers the hero free enterprise doctors, drug companies, insurance companies, and other hero caregivers will just get together and solve the problem free of gummint".
That was idiotic crap.

Same with how Freedom Lovers should be free not to get health insurance but only buy it when they get very old sick so they
can spend their money wiser in the Free Market on 72" HDTVs and vacations to Bali...So the invisible hand of the free market can use money from those HDTVs from China and Bali vacations to make a better health system...
Idiotic libertarian or right wing Ayn Randian crap.

Cedarford said...

Michael K - "Doctors, acting in our(their?) own short term interests, had a lot to do with where we are now. I have a series of blog posts on this including why I think the French system is better.
=============
Objectively, it is hard to argue with a French, German, Israeli, Japanese system that is 40% less expensive, has longer average lifespans, 0 medical bankruptcies.

The counter - "Well, rich people come to the US because for those who can afford it..our system gives cadillac care! That makes Amurica Best in the World, By Jingo!!"

????
That's OK for the well-off Canadians and Saudi princes that gladly pay for exorbitant care costs or to avoid "waiting in line when 1st Class tickets have no wait" ...but in the aggregate, Americans spend far more for far less healthcare than other countries do.

Alex said...

What a betrayal. How can he bleat on about Obamacare then throw this in our faces. That's it - I'm not voting.

Alex said...

C4 - the main reason the Japanese have longer lifespans has more to do with their diet and exercise then the quality of their health care system.

edutcher said...

shiloh said...

I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was.

mittens continual flip/flopping and Obama having everything Romney's primary opponents said about him at the ready notwithstanding ...

The great thing about the Rep's current RINO nominee ~ it's such a target rich environment. :)


"You didn't build that"

"If you like your plan, you can keep it"

"If I don't have this done in three years, then there's going to be a one-term proposition."

Feel free to add...

AprilApple said...

"We have to pass the bill, to find out what's in it."

Michael K said...

"Objectively, it is hard to argue with a French, German, Israeli, Japanese system that is 40% less expensive, has longer average lifespans, 0 medical bankruptcies."

The German and French systems are excellent. They do not have the urban underclass we have and there are significant other differences.

"The counter - "Well, rich people come to the US because for those who can afford it..our system gives cadillac care! That makes Amurica Best in the World, By Jingo!!"

????
That's OK for the well-off Canadians and Saudi princes that gladly pay for exorbitant care costs or to avoid "waiting in line when 1st Class tickets have no wait" ...but in the aggregate, Americans spend far more for far less healthcare than other countries do."

That is largely a myth but if it makes you feel better...

In the UK, they can't get female Muslim nurses or doctors to wash their arms in surgery. Hospital borne infections are a severe problem. They passed a rule that no ER can keep a patient longer than 4 hours so the ERs keep the ambulances in the parking lot waiting until the patient can be admitted in 4 hours.

A serious attempt to reform US healthcare hasn't been made and will not come from your sort of mythologizing.

Andy R. said...

Romney spokesperson cites Massachusetts health law
A Mitt Romney spokesperson offered an unusual counterattack Wednesday to an ad in which a laid-off steelworker blames the presumptive GOP nominee for his family losing health care: If that family had lived in Massachusetts, it would have been covered by the former governor's universal health care law.

"To that point, if people had been in Massachusetts, under Governor Romney's health care plan, they would have had health care," Andrea Saul, Romney's campaign press secretary, said during an appearance on Fox News.


We just need to move all Americans without insurance to Massachusetts.

edutcher said...

Hatman needs to work on being something other than a nonserious joke commenter.

Cedarford said...

Michael K - I wasn't aware I lumped in the UK's PHS system in my "mythologizing".

Bender - How is a governor, working to get his state's voters #1 concern at the time in 2002 - the broken American health care and health insurance system fixed and doing it to satisfaction of 3/4ths of Mass voters 10 years later "his biggest liability" - outside Podunk, Arkansas..that is.

Do you think honestly that what we had in 2008 was the ideal, best fucking healthcare system in the world?? And any changes to that "Betray the extreme Conservative Cause!!"

Michael K said...

" I wasn't aware I lumped in the UK's PHS system in my "mythologizing"."

Well, at least you showed that good sense. Japan is a special case. There is no urban underclass. I had a Japanese patient a few years ago who brought all his family here for care (Yes, he could afford it) because he said Japanese surgeons were "inhumane." Certainly, they are aggressive.

Israeli medicine is obviously an example of the small country systems usually quoted by critics who use Switzerland or Holland as examples.

The US is a huge country with a large urban underclass. This is a unique challenge. France is as close as I can find as an example. It still doesn't have the underclass we do. The US Army did a study a few years ago on birth weight. Blacks had the lowest, whites next and Hispanics the highest. Prenatal care was the same for all. Hypertension is a serious black health challenge, as is prostate cancer.

Canada has a small population with a small underclass. Even so, they fucked up their system big time and are only now getting back to rational care. Australia had probably the best medical care in the world in the 1970s. A Labour government wrecked it. They promised free care but made no provision for it. I was there not long after. They have never recovered.

Our problems are several. We have had perverse incentives for cost but the response has been rationing. Medicare is popular but will collapse soon. It could have been easily saved 15 years ago but probably not now.

Medicaid is a disaster.

What we need is a system of catastrophic insurance plus HSAs with a separate system, like the French have, for certain uninsurable diseases like diabetes and cancer.

Will we get it ? I don't know. If Ryan is VP, we might.

bgates said...

Althouse, you're not doing yourself any favors by ducking the serious issue of how many young boys you procured for Harry Reid.

And don't fiddle around with details or legalisms like "completely innocent" or "outrageous slander". You need to restore our confidence.

Ralph L said...

The French system killed Princess Diana by trying to treat her on-site instead of rushing her to the hospital, not to mention the lack of guardrails in their tunnel. They obviously need more trial lawyers suing everyone to shape up.

Michael K said...

"The French system killed Princess Diana by trying to treat her on-site instead of rushing her to the hospital, not to mention the lack of guardrails in their tunnel. They obviously need more trial lawyers suing everyone to shape up."

The French have a different philosophy than we do with trauma. We believe in "scoop and run." they have doctors on their ambulances (We used to in the 60s, I was one) and want to "stabilize" patients. A well known trauma surgeon from Texas, named Ken Mattox proved that you can't keep up with bleeding using an IV. even a big one.

Princess Diana had a pulmonary artery tear and probably would not have survived even in my trauma center.

Ralph L said...

Remind me to stay away from your trauma center, M K. You're obviously not one of Cedarford's "hero" surgeons and I bet you don't have frantic, tuneless music blaring when a big case comes in.

I wonder if they ever put a guardrail in that tunnel, or if aesthetics won out over common sense and experience.

Shana said...

Well, damn the luck. My husband told me Romney was a liar. He'll be voting libertarian. It is getting harder for me to argue for a Romney vote. He tends to put the worst spin on politicians' intentions, and unfortunately he's usually proved right.

pm317 said...

Romney needs more capable spokespeople, somebody like Cutter or Fluke, you know those trust fund bitches one of whom called Romney a felon and now is defending this fuckingly nauseating ad. And what is with that man who appears in the ad? Does he have any conscience?

Michael K said...

"Remind me to stay away from your trauma center, M K. You're obviously not one of Cedarford's "hero" surgeons and I bet you don't have frantic, tuneless music blaring when a big case comes in."

You're too late. I retired. I do have some memories of the illegal aliens I spent thousands of hours saving. My taste in music was more "Cats" or "Phantom of the Opera."

You don't want your trauma surgeon jumping around to frantic music, but you are free to prefer your own sort.

hombre said...

"Powerful Obama ad?" It's an unmitigated pack of lies.

Romney and the wussies running his campaign had better figure out that this will never stop and will be abetted by the immoral mediaswine. Time to rip out a throat or two.

cf said...

What an eccentric take on the ad and the Romney campaign's weak response. The ad was a sleazy one, a series of lies. Are you in favor of campaigning by demagoguery and appeals to emotions? I guess so.

What is the present over / under on you voting for Obama yet again?

garage mahal said...

"Romney campaign expresses pride in Romneycare."

Repeal & Promote?

Er, I mean Repeal & Replace with what I promoted? No, I mean just Repeal, and Replace, with something later, other than what I just Promoted, which I advocated for and signed into law which I want to now Repeal. But still Promote?

AllieOop said...

Michael K, good choice in music!

AllieOop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllieOop said...

I've said before that Romney will not repeal or replace, it's HIS baby. Isn't it time to accept that it's here to stay? Why not improve it?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I've said before that Romney will not repeal or replace, it's HIS baby. Isn't it time to accept that it's here to stay? Why not improve it?

Repeal would improve it.

Ralph L said...

I've said before that Romney will not repeal or replace
But, but he PROMISED!! If he doesn't, the entire Republican base will shit on the WH lawn and rub his whole smiling face in it.

You don't want your trauma surgeon jumping around to frantic music
You never noticed the "music" on the TV series "ER"? Or you never watched it, even for laughs? They'd always pump up the noise to add to the excitement of a life-threatening injury/illness.

Since you missed the jokes, I'll refrain from abusing ALWeber.

AJ Lynch said...

The Romney spokeswoman, Andrea Saul, is 30 years old and has a bachelors degree in communications with a minor in Spanish. She has worked in campaigns since at least 2008 when she was just 26 years old. WTF talent, skills or knowledge could she possibly bring to Romney's campaign? I agree with Anne Coulter- Saul should be banished from site.

AprilApple said...

via Instapundit link: Turns out the ad is worse than we thought. Total bullshit. Typical.

"Romney left Bain in 1999.

GST was shut down in 2001.

Soptic’s wife had her own health insurance through 2003.

Now, in 2006, she was diagnosed — diagnosed! — with very late-stage cancer.

She died 22 days after diagnosis.

Is the argument made that Romney owed this guy another seven years worth of insurance coverage?

And what good would it even have done? She wasn’t even diagnosed until just over three weeks before she would die.

What?!

I have to point this out because until now I’d been assuming she was suffering with cancer for years.

I knew this ad was preposterous, but this is just too much."

-Ace

AprilApple said...

How is ObamaCare "Romney's baby"? It's not a blueprint, it was not Romney's idea to nationalize health care, tax the nation to death to pay for it, and do it all on party line vote.

Tim said...

AllieOop said...

"I've said before that Romney will not repeal or replace, it's HIS baby. Isn't it time to accept that it's here to stay? Why not improve it?"

That's just factually wrong.

It's a handy talking point, but it's just plain wrong.

There are multiple, critical operational distinctions between Massachusetts' "health care reform" law and Obama-care beyond the order of magnitude difference in expense, scope and reach.

The politics were significantly different too.

Only the simplest of minds, or aggressively partisan, would argue, "...it's HIS baby."

Either you are lying, or are ignorant. I'll defer to your judgement as to which, but there is no way you can defend "...it's HIS baby."

AJ Lynch said...

What evidence does anyone have Allie that the govt has the ability / skills. brains to truly "reform" an industry as large and as complex as our health insurance industry?

Think of the people involved...Obama [community organizer], Pelosi [half-ass congress critter], Reid [half ass lawyer], Sebelius [longtime lobbyist for attorneys and politician].

Tim said...

AJ Lynch said...

"What evidence does anyone have Allie that the govt has the ability / skills. brains to truly "reform" an industry as large and as complex as our health insurance industry?"

I can't speak for Allie, but quite obviously, no evidence.

Worse yet, it isn't just "an industry as large and as complex as our health insurance industry" that they want to "reform" - it's all of health care and medicine - as if Medicaid, Medicare and the VA work as well, let alone better than, private medicine and health care.

It's as dumb as voting for Obama and expecting anything more than failure.

Yet somehow these idiots think they actually can make private medicine and health care "better."

Morons.

Ralph L said...

Yet somehow these idiots think they actually can make private medicine and health care "better."
I realized this about Hillarycare and it's true about Omaba's too: They know Medicare/Medicaid are going to bankrupt the government, so instead of reforming them into viability, they have to swallow the whole industry in order to ration care and suck up enough money (namely the profits of the private health care sector). They think their system will run out of the goodness of people's hearts and a crapload of regulations.

Tim said...

"They think their system will run out of the goodness of people's hearts and a crapload of regulations."

Right.

Because if one is a Liberal, all that's necessary to pay the bills and make shit work and all that is good intentions.

And lots more regulation and higher taxes, because see, while the Soviets couldn't do it with bayonet, rifle, insane asylums and gulags in 70 years, the Liberal can do it because, well, his intentions are for the best.

Morons.

Danno said...

AprilApple-

Good job in showing the time line here. I saw the same on the Wall St. Journal.

jr565 said...

Althouse wrote:
But then what happens to people who lose their insurance, like this poor man whose wife learned too late that she had cancer? We feel empathy to him and he stimulates legitimate fears that we have about ourselves and people we love. It's not enough for the Romney campaign to fiddle around with the details about Romney's connection to this man's losing his job and when and why the cancer killed his wife.


Except this is not how it happened. Why is it not enough to point out that the facts in this particluar hatchet job aren't even remotely accurate? The dude lost his job in 2001, after Romney already had left the company. And his wife didn't get cancer till 2006, and she had insurance through her job. So how is this even remotely tied into Romney?
It's not enough to respond to blood libels and say they're bullshit? Frankly Romney's response should be "go fuck yourself you ignorant c*nt!" to any of Obama's surrogates daring to bring forth the argument.

ushutup said...

You lose your job, you lose health 'insurance'. Eggs; one basket.

The benefit people gain from tying insurance to a job, and allowing people (the consumer) to effectively ignore the actual cost of healthcare is where we are today.

How much are you prepared to pay when you aren't paying for it?

DEEBEE said...

It should be enough to lay out the sequence of events as they occurred. If a “normal” person does not see the idiocy of the Obama ad’s claim then it is sure one is trying to convert the walking dead to one’s POV.
Doing anything else is getting into a goody bidding war which a Dem will always win.

Jay said...

HA HA HA HA HA!

Coal Miners’ Union Sits Out Presidential Race

Rusty said...

Michael K said...
"It took patience and time, but the dedicated left destroyed the private health care system so that we can all stand back and whine about how corrupt drug companies are and how expensive hospital stays are. etc..."

Doctors, acting in our own short term interests, had a lot to do with where we are now. I have a series of blog posts on this including why I think the French system is better.

The best site on this is here and goes into much more detail, including the problems and dangers of Obamacare, which is still being written.


There's already a system in place already paid for with taxpayer dollars and staffed with competent medical personnel and would not cost as much to expand. It's called VA hospitals and clinics.
Just a thought.

Amartel said...

Fiddling around with the details: apparently not such a bad idea after all. "Brutal Anti-Romney ad blowing up in Obama Campaign's face"

http://www.businessinsider.com/joe-soptic-romney-obama-ad-campaign-priorities-usa-2012-8?fb_action_ids=10151155718572673&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210151155718572673%22%3A10151081236938118}&action_type_map={%2210151155718572673%22%3A%22og.recommends%22}&action_ref_map

shishka said...

by the logic of the ad, obama is responsible for the aurora shootings, since the shooter was unemployed due to the president's failed economic policies.

Gerald Blose said...

well i hope they concentrate and give attention more to health, health problems in this country is getting worsen, i hope they can finance research centers and cancer treatment centers to help alleviate medical sufferings.