August 12, 2012

Is the caricature of Romney as "hollow, cynical and inauthentic" attributable to downplaying Mormonism?

Ross Douthat seems to think so.
... Romney clearly does have deep convictions: the evidence is in his intense commitment to his church, as a local leader and as a philanthropist. Between the endless hours of unpaid, “love thy neighbor” efforts required of a Mormon bishop and the scope of his private generosity, the caricature of the Republican candidate as a conviction-free mannequin mostly collapses....

Conservatism sometimes makes an idol of the rugged individual, but at its richest and deepest it valorizes local community instead — defending the family and the neighborhood, the civic association and the church. And there is no population in America that lives out this vision of the good society quite like the Latter-day Saints....

71 comments:

Revenant said...

I plan to pop some popcorn and wait for Crack and Andy to see this post.

Michael K said...

My college room mate, who I had lunch with a couple of weeks ago after 50 years of not seeing him. had a wealthy father. His father insisted on Mormons for his doctor, lawyer and accountant. My accountant is Mormon. If I could find a Mormon doctor I would choose him but all the ones I know are surgeons. Absolutely trustworthy, in my opinion.

chickelit said...

Revenant said...
I plan to pop some popcorn and wait for Crack and Andy to see this post.

Didn't Andy say he was flying to L.A. to help vandalize Chick-fil-A's?

I expect Crack along any minute.

jr565 said...

Love thy neighbor. That sounds culty.

Tregonsee said...

I have never met Harry Reid. I can then truthfully say I have never met a Mormon that I didn't like personally, and respect professionally. The several times I had dinner at home with one, the phone always rang at least one with LDS member support business. (That does not mean I have any desire to convert.)

Mikio said...

I wonder if Romney loses this election if he'll remove his magic underwear and set it on fire.

rhhardin said...

Shallow gets a bad name.

America's Politico said...

At the Off-The-Record shindig earlier today, the CORE (COmmittee to RE-elect) POTUS focused on a few things -- 1. DESTROY ROMNEY by SHOWING EVIL GENIUS of RYAN. 2. Make GOP the party of Rich-White-Guys and the Party of No Women and Minorities. 3. Make GOP an UnAmerican Party due to its dis-respect of international bodies.

The word is that starting tomorrow, everyone at Chicago HQ will enter into the suite by typing a keyword: DESTROY.

This is in the blue-print, Chapter 4, of the new Book, The Candidate, on how Team Obama beat Team Clinton. Everyone is following these steps to beat Romney.

dreams said...

I don't think conservatives including social conservatives and hopefully most independents will hold his religion against him so I hope he does have something to say about his religion at the convention.

rhhardin said...

Being serious is just one way of being frivolous. It seeks credit.

Seriousness is retrospective. You can't seek it out. You will turn out to have been serious, or not.

Chip S. said...

When I see the words "hollow, cynical, and inauthentic," one candidate does indeed spring to mind, but it isn't Romney.

Let's get back to talking about Paul Ryan's lack of business experience. That really makes me think about voting for Obama.

Lem said...

Giving a woman cancer is inauthentic.

Lem said...

Ryan gave Wisconsin cancer.

campy said...

Ryan gave Wisconsin cancer.

I thought that was Walker.

Ross said...

Serving others is typical for Mormons. And not just other Mormons but those around the world.

http://www.lds.org/topics/humanitarian-service/church?lang=eng

Cedarford said...

I read that the US population is about 35% atheist or agnostic...yet some 45% of the total population will not vote for one.

Could it be that while 80% of the population nominally says they are religious or part of a religious institution (atheists or agnostics attending church on family or community expectations are not unknown and explain thec 80%-30% discrepency
) - that on the other hand, come people are Too Religious to vote for?

It isn't just odd cults that are a factor. We would feel extremely unconfortable voting for:

A. A rabid Islamic Fundamentalist.
B. A Catholic that wants to execute women that have had abortions.
C. A ferverent Evangelical that honestly believes in a 6,000 year old Earth, Noah's flood, non-believers are damned, and our 1st duty is to do as the leaders of Israel tell us to do...

Romney is very religious.
But so far has not come across as overly religious in the way Jimmy Carter, Santorum, Mohammed Atta did.

He'll have to flesh himself out some and explain that besides work and family, for 30 years he was active in church activities - as a worker, then a leader.
That he did things in evenings and on weekends alongside church members from all walks of life dealing with all sorts of problems...

traditionalguy said...

It's all a Mormon trick being good, honest, hard working and generous citizens.

Douthat has apparently been assigned the job of creating and putting out WEIRD MORMON STORIES but doing so as if he is adoing thoughtful analysis by a non-bigot.

Douthat gets an A- on that effort. Hemanaged to tie the strange revelation into the inability of Romney to show his emotions.

That is an unconnected Romney weakness. But Douthat says it's proof that Mitt conceals the WEIRD RELIGION...the one fundamentalisr Christians don't like.

Douthat is good for at least 3 more of these assigned hit pieces between now and election.

edutcher said...

The stories about the Romster suggest he is anything but "hollow, cynical and inauthentic".

How many people would go from Baaston to Gotham and organize a search for his partner's missing daughter?

Revenant said...

I read that the US population is about 35% atheist or agnostic

I'm not sure where you read that, but the estimates I've seen range from two to ten percent.

AllieOop said...

Paul Ryan tearing up at homecoming in Waukesha, he's going to be the guy who will make this ticket win, Romney couldn't do it without him, IMO.

AllieOop said...

Unless he messes up big time. Wish I liked his policies more.

wild chicken said...

Mormons are square and old fashioned. Yeah that creeps out most hipsters. But they're good at managing and doing the books.

I know one who was a bank teller and took over the finances of an elderly man I knew who couldn't manage his checking account. She was a gem, who wanted him as a stand-in grandfather for her kids. She straightened out his affairs, including the myriad of Medicare and Medigap billing, a real hassle. There is no bad ending to the story, no petty theft or anything like that. Boring, huh.

They were the hotel managers and pit bosses when I worked in Nevada. They were the grownups there.

They may save us yet.

AprilApple said...

Whatever caricature the left can make stick, even if it's all myth, hysterics and half-truths, they will desperately try it.
Meanwhile Obama, the community organizer, has given all of our money to his donors.

Joe said...

I grew up Mormon on the east coast and lived throughout the US until settling in Utah 22 years ago. I left the Mormon church a dozen years ago.

My experience is that the percentage of Mormons that are good people, those that are neutral and those that are bad, dishonest and/or crooks is the same as any other population. Romney strikes me as a sincere Mormon who acts on his beliefs and for me, actions speak louder than words.

I've concluded that good people will be good people regardless of their religion. Same with the bad.

dreams said...

"Paul Ryan tearing up at homecoming in Waukesha, he's going to be the guy who will make this ticket win, Romney couldn't do it without him, IMO."

I think Romney feeds off his personalty and so comes across as more open and likable. Plus, Ryan can really help Romney make the case for what needs to done to grow our economy and reduce our debt.

Rabel said...

The bigotry, hate and ignorance in the comments at the Times put the worst of us here to shame.

campy said...

The bigotry, hate and ignorance in the comments at the Times put the worst of us here to shame.

I sense a challenge!

kentuckyliz said...

2-10%? Same percentage of the population is homosexual. Coincidence?

*ducking*

OK, pick on Romney's Mormonism. I'll pick magic underwear* over Rev. Jeremiah Wright any day.

* after all, I wear the brown scapular. I'm not going to pick on anyone's devotional garments.

phx said...

Conservatism sometimes makes an idol of the rugged individual, but at its richest and deepest it valorizes local community instead — defending the family and the neighborhood, the civic association and the church. And there is no population in America that lives out this vision of the good society quite like the Latter-day Saints....

This is good as far as it goes. But the other side of that Conservative who valorously the community, the neighborhood, the family, etc., often is that same Conservative looks without empathy on the outsider.

Note I NOT saying this of Romney necessarily or any particular person. This is a generalization that I think is valid, but I'm only raising the possibility it applies to Romney. Further disclaimers will be offered as necessary.

phx said...

"...who valorously defends the community..."

The Crack Emcee said...

I welcome the day Romney accepts the advice to speak of his cult's beliefs.

So that way he can be questioned on them - and the cult itself.

Oh, who am I fooling? You guys didn't even have the balls to question Oprah, resulting in her becoming the richest woman in the world and savior to the White House's current occupant. Who - last I heard - some of you folks don't like.

I guess if this keeps up, one day, I'm just going to have to roll over and admit "The Secret" was the most revolutionary book ever written and Joseph Smith's life of crime was nothing less than a sign of the benevolence to smile upon this country, on the part of - ahem - Our Lord.

But forget about me, history teachers of this new millennium are surrrre going to have to do some fancy footwork explaining this last decade's particularly nonsensical turn of events in the future,...

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

The Catholics voted for the Mormon Romney
The evangelivals voted for Samtorum

The Crack Emcee said...

Man, do I miss the era of investigative journalism,...

Rusty said...

Oh, who am I fooling? You guys didn't even have the balls to question Oprah, resulting in her becoming the richest woman in the world and savior to the White House's current occupant. Who - last I heard - some of you folks don't like.


Oprah? Really?
You're jumping the shark here.

Ralph L said...

same Conservative looks without empathy on the outsider
Yeah, when the outsider is grabbing for our wallets.

Titus said...

If there is every some gay marriage initiative you can always count on the Mormy's to spend big bucks preserve the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman.

But Althouse will never mention that because she has a flock to nourish...even if it goes against her own fucking family. Completely sad and pathetic. Oh I know she is supportive of gay marriage...kind of, but loves the anti gay republicans. Thank God she is not my mother-I would be devastated.

Ralph L said...

Gee, Titus, maybe she thinks avoiding a government-caused financial collapse that will make the Great Depression look like a party is more important than your or her son's self-esteem over a word.

edutcher said...

Titus is starting to sound like Hatman.

Not a change for the better.

yashu said...

I plan to pop some popcorn and wait for Crack and Andy to see this post.

Imagine if Romney had picked Rubio instead-- then we'd have Mick in the mix! A Mormon (or more, a Mormon & a half) AND an ineligible usurper on the same ticket!!

shiloh said...

"hollow, cynical and inauthentic" on a good day lol as being Mormon probably has little to do with it.

mittens reality ...

Erika said...

B. A Catholic that wants to execute women that have had abortions.

That would be interesting indeed, as such a Catholic would be extremely far afield of what his church actually teaches.

Then again, so are the Pelosis of the world, I suppose.

Revenant said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
O Ritmo Segundo said...

So is he running for leader of the neighborhood watch group, president of his church or the local chamber of commerce?

I'm sorry but I thought he was running for the presidency of the United States, a job a bigger and more important than any of those gigs by a few dozen orders of magnitude.

As such, this imbecile is expected to have somewhat consistent and rational opinions on NATIONAL POLICY -- that don't change every nanosecond, or according to the prejudices of the questioner.

Republicans are simply not serious about leadership. They are too lazy to do anything other than to identify ANOTHER authority - preferably in the financial or theological spheres of influence, and swear fealty to that person or persons.

Romney has shown only a glimmer of consistency or conviction, and that is when it comes to some possibly irresponsible views on Middle Eastern Armageddon scenarios. And that probably has to do with religion being one of the only steadfast constants with him. Should a theological focal point be the basis for his understanding of foreign policy, though?

And yes, he'd like people who don't have elevators in their garage to pay more taxes. We get that about him. So kind of him to offer to end all those loopholes that allow him a 13.9% rate or better on his returns. It remains to be seen, however, if he's as serious about this as he is embarrassed about revealing the foreign tax shelters he's used to evade paying at a rate much higher than that, and much closer to what others pay.

If the campaign focuses on actual policy issues, like these, then he will continue to do poorly. So let's do the Republican thing, and celebrate the MAN, in all his ordinary conservative blandness, and hope that that will make any independent or - Heaven forbid - Democratic voter actually give two buckets of warm cider about this guy with a deplorable double-digit gap in his favorability ratings.

Then we can go onto the election, after which, (and especially if he loses) I will be the first to organize and toast (or roast) him at a neighborhood barbecue to be held in his honor, where we can all go on about what a jolly good fellow, with a jolly good family, this jolly good man really is.

JOLLY!

Feel the jolly.

At least it beats the hate, right?

The Crack Emcee said...

"There is no population in America that lives out this vision of the good society quite like the Latter-day Saints...."

If that's true, then a definition of "the good society" is one where everybody must be nuts:

Utah is famous for its pristine natural beauty and clean living lifestyle. But beneath that facade there is a potentially severe mental health problem, reports CBS News Correspondent Sandra Hughes.

Utah leads the nation in prescriptions for anti-depressants, according to a recent study. "The fact that we're twice the national average with something like anti-depressants begs some explanation," said Dr. Curt Canning, head of the Psychiatric Association of Utah.

The survey, by a large prescription benefits provider, stunned Canning. He thinks one possible explanation is the state's dominant Mormon culture,...


Oh - and one more thing:

Why is it I can find all this negative stuff about Mormons and Mormonism but no one else can?

Why, it's almost like somebody's trying to manipulate us,...

elkh1 said...

Hollow or not, he knows how to make money without bilking the taxpayers.

Whatever he is, he cannot be worse than the current resident in the WH.

CE: "Why is it I can find all this negative stuff about Mormons and Mormonism but no one else can?"

Your point? Romney should be disqualified because he is a Mormon?

Are we to blame all Muslims because the 911 terrorists were Muslim? Are we to blame all blacks for the latest gang shootings? oh, don't forget the Jews.

wyo sis said...

Investigative journalism wouldn't change anything about Mormons or about Romney. Investigative journalism would find just what history finds. Mormons have a history fraught with persecution and death. Just like any mainstream religion. Mormons stand behind their religious doctrine by financing pro life and anti gay marriage. Why wouldn't they?

Kirk Parker said...

Allie,

"Wish I liked his policies more. "

Don't worry, those policies will be way better for you and everyone else, in the long run, than the policies of Team O.

jr565 said...

Crack wrote:
Oh, who am I fooling? You guys didn't even have the balls to question Oprah, resulting in her becoming the richest woman in the world and savior to the White House's current occupant. Who - last I heard - some of you folks don't like.

what do we have to question her about, other than being a smug businesses woman who pushed her own interests and got rich off of her Oprah crap. I didn't watch her stuff, nor read any of the books she recommended, but I don't think she did anything ILLEGAL.
Then again, considering how she's marginalized herself by starting her own network, maybe there isnt a need to.

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

Investigative journalism wouldn't change anything about Mormons or about Romney. Investigative journalism would find just what history finds. Mormons have a history fraught with persecution and death. Just like any mainstream religion.

Really? Come on. Mormonism is a young belief system. There's nothing about it that can't be known, if you'd bother to look. Why don't you just be honest and admit you can't be bothered to see what you're getting us into?

Death, yes - sometimes at their hand- but (unwarranted) persecution? Aren't you just playing the Mormon game and blaming those who couldn't/can't swallow fraud, wanted no part in pedophilia, and were protecting their daughters from polygamy?

If you ask me, those are damned good reasons for "persecuting" somebody.

And then there's stuff like this:

In July of 1835, Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, purchased from a travelling exhibition 4 Egyptian mummies and some ancient scrolls found with the mummies. The scrolls contained Egyptian symbols, some of which Smith said he recognized.
Translation commenced and it was announced to the Mormon community the scrolls contained the writings of Abraham, the biblical founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Another was said to contain the writings of Joseph.

Yet the scrolls told of very different things than the Bible; God justified deceit when a righteous purpose is served, Abraham is instructed in astronomy in which the heavens are explained as an eternal progression of pre-existing spirits. Certain men would be exalted and go on to become gods themselves. It taught there were a plurality of gods who created the universe. The scrolls offered support to a variety of things Joseph Smith had been introducing to his teachings.

However, at that time, there was no one in America who could read ancient Egyptian. The Rosetta Stone was found only a few years prior in the 1820's and the knowledge had not crossed the Atlantic.

Eventually the translation was canonized in Mormon theology as the Book of Abraham, being placed at the same level of authority as the Book of Mormon. The scrolls were thought destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire, but were rediscovered in 1967 at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.

When Egyptologists were able to examine them, they found Smith's translation was a fabrication; single symbols were translated by Smith in his notebooks as several paragraphs. For example, the Egyptian symbol for "born of" was "translated" by Smith into 3 paragraphs about a Chaldean famine, etc.

The books Smith said were the records of Abraham are actually a common pagan funeral papyrus, of relatively late date, known to Egyptologists as "The Book of Breathings" prepared between 50 BC and 50 AD for a priest name Hor, who served the Egyptian god Amon at Karnak. It was composed using Egyptian writing that didn't exist until 600 B.C., 12 centuries after the time of Abraham.

The writings said to be from Joseph are a late copy of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", prepared for a woman named Ta-Shert-Min. The scrolls had nothing to do with Abraham or Joseph. Egyptologists see Smith's translation and interpretation of drawings in the scrolls as gibberish,...


BUT YOU WANT TO ELECT SOMEBODY WHO'S SELLING THIS SHIT TO THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND.

ONE WORD - RUBES.

The Crack Emcee said...

I think this line bears scrutiny - and repeating:

"God justified deceit when a righteous purpose is served,..."

But Mormons are too "nice" to be doing that to us, riiiight?

RUBES.

Revenant said...

(munches popcorn)

The Crack Emcee said...

jr565,

what do we have to question [Oprah] about,...

jr, I told you, you're too stupid for me to want to deal with. I give you answers and you keep coming back with the same nonsense. Look, if Oprah making millions, and Rhonda Byrne making multiples of that, and James Arthur Ray killing people - all from the wishful thinking promises of "The Secret" - isn't enough to wake you up, then I can't help you:

You LIKE fraud - preferably on a massive scale.

I. Do. Not.

And that's pretty much all I have left to say to you,...

Bender said...

Romney clearly does have deep convictions: the evidence is in his intense commitment to his church, as a local leader and as a philanthropist. Between the endless hours of unpaid, “love thy neighbor” efforts required of a Mormon bishop and the scope of his private generosity, the caricature of the Republican candidate as a conviction-free mannequin mostly collapses
________________

The conclusion that Romney has inner convictions does not necessarily follow from his actions. A robot can do all of the things described above, yet have no fundamental philosophy, especially a political fundamental philosophy.

Indeed, Jesus warned that the outward person does not always reflect the reality of the inner person, in one of his more famous encounters (Mt. 23) --
"25 'Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 'Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whited sepulchres, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.'"

Romney might, in his actions, do this good thing and that good thing, but that doesn't really prove a whole lot. Sometimes words do speak louder than actions in letting people know about a person's core.

Is the do-gooder Romney actually dead inside? Or is he on fire inside with conviction and belief?

Based on observations of the last several years, I would say that my impression of him has not changed -- he is a weasel. He has no real fundamental inner belief that drives him. Rather, what inhabits his insides is a politician -- a politician whose greatest belief is his belief in himself -- "competence, not ideology."

He has no foundational philosophy; that is why he is so totally inept at explaining and promoting conservative principles. To be sure, the original version of Romney was that of a moderate, a wishy-washy, squishy, bend this way, bend that way, depending upon the prevailing winds. Because he does not have conservatives principles in himself already, he cannot speak about them from his heart, he can only utter platitudes that he has memorized or read off the teleprompter.

I'm not even sure that his Mormon beliefs are all that deep, notwithstanding Crack's concerns that he is a cultist. For all I know it may be a purely social thing, and not an intellectual, much less spiritual, matter. Certainly nothing he has ever said out loud suggests that inner fundamental principles, Mormon, conservative, or otherwise, are what drive him.

The Crack Emcee said...

Bender,

Between the endless hours of unpaid, “love thy neighbor” efforts required of a Mormon bishop and the scope of his private generosity, the caricature of the Republican candidate as a conviction-free mannequin mostly collapses
________________

The conclusion that Romney has inner convictions does not necessarily follow from his actions. A robot can do all of the things described above, yet have no fundamental philosophy, especially a political fundamental philosophy.

True. Let's look at one example of those "endless hours of unpaid, “love thy neighbor” efforts required of a Mormon bishop," shall we?

I think tithing settlement is a complete invasion. I bristled every time I had to do it. It just reinforces the fact that you have to pay your way into the temple and into the “celestial kingdom”. Back when I was a member, my bishop once withheld my recommend [the ability to enter the Mormon temple] because I was a month behind on paying my tithing. I was working my ass of in ward and stake callings, taking my kids to church every week by myself, doing my visiting teaching, etc., but he felt I wasn’t worthy to go to the temple, that I was “stealing from the lord.” I missed my cousin’s wedding because I didn’t have the recommend. I was devastated and completely embarrassed to miss the wedding. I was so ashamed because of the things the bishop said to me.

Awww, how "loving," isn't it? No - ecumenical extortion, is what it is.

And if you don't think Mitt Romney practiced it, then you don't understand anything about this cult,...

Carnifex said...

At this point of Zero's disasterous reign, "competence" is not the worst thing we could hope for.

C4, if you know any Catholics that want to kill women for aborting babies, I suggest you get better acquaintances. And contact the police.

Or it could just be your bigotry showing.

Got any more popcorn Rev?

Revenant said...

I think this line bears scrutiny - and repeating:

According to Google, you're the first person to ever scrutinize or repeat it. So... grats! :)

Geoff Matthews said...

Crack bait.

Mark Nielsen said...

Crack, I know I can't tell you anything. But for the benefit of others, I'll point out (as a current Mormon Bishop) that your quoted description of "tithing settlement" is completely distorted. Nobody is ever judged to be "behind in their tithing".

Bender, you're almost as hopeless. You'll always deny there is evidence of anyone having a deep religious conviction or experience with LDS theology, ignoring the obvious fact that depth of religious conviction cannot be externally observed. Your hatred of Mormons blinds you to the one test Christians have been given: "by their fruits shall ye know them".

Revenant said...

Sometimes words do speak louder than actions in letting people know about a person's core.

Maybe sometimes, but never with politicians. With politicians, actions are the only thing that matters.

Ralph L said...

And if you don't think Mitt Romney practiced it
If he did, or anything close to it, you know darn well we'll hear of it, and nothing else for a week, before November 6.

yashu said...

One of the ironies of Crack is that he seems unaware or indifferent to the fact that to accomplish the kinds of thing he demands-- things he thinks it insane or evil or foolish of all Americans not to demand-- would entail ripping the US Constitution to shreds and instituting a system of fascistic mind control and coercion of conscience.

Things like banishing the idea of or belief in heaven and other such "fairy tale" thinking; forcibly preventing "cultists" (like Mormons) from rising to political power (after Romney won the primaries, he thought there was nothing that should prevent "us" from rising up as Americans and giving the nomination to someone else); having some law or enforcement of some law that would have prevented Oprah from making her millions selling whatever it is she sells and others freely buy, because it's "fraudulent." Also fraudulent: selling vitamins. Etc.

Fuck toleration. For Crack, these things are not to be tolerated, and it's just insane that we as Americans do tolerate them. It's intolerable!

It seems like Crack would think it perfectly reasonable, if not imperative, to institute a systematic nationwide "deprogramming" of citizens. Since everyone in the world except him seems asleep or blind to the monstrous threat of cultism-- everyone except him lives in false consciousness, we're all living in a cloud of illusion-- I suppose only a select group of people like him (truly enlightened minds) ought to bear the authority and responsibility of crafting and enforcing such a regime, which would rightfully distinguish between the cultish and non-cultish, the false and the true, superstition and reality, the fraudulent and the factual.

Obviously you would have to find a way to criminalize the kind of fraudulent behavior Oprah and and other cultists engage in. But who would have the authority to judge and how could one judge such a thing? I guess that might require something like an Inquisition. The Macho Response!

The Crack Emcee said...

Mark Nielsen,

Crack, I know I can't tell you anything. But for the benefit of others, I'll point out (as a current Mormon Bishop)...

No, Mark, you can't tell me anything because I know more than you'll ever let on. I know Mormons are atheological, so your being a bishop doesn't mean shit to me - you'll "lie for the Lord" in a heartbeat, and I know it.

Fuck tithing - why aren't you calling the Joseph Smith Mummy story false? Because it isn't. The leader of your cult was a liar and a fraud - which makes YOU a liar and a fraud. You're no Christian. You're just a fool who will say anything in the hope you can get more people to tell what to do.

What happened to polygamy and the "church," Mark? That was a major tenet of your "faith." Oh yeah - you gave it up to cut a deal. What happened to blacks being less-than? Oh yeah - you gave it up to cut a deal.

In other words, you "believe" in nothing, as long as you can cut a deal.

Fuck you, bishop. Go peddle your bullshit to somebody ignorant enough to listen to it,...

The Crack Emcee said...

yashu,

One of the ironies of Crack is that he seems unaware or indifferent to the fact that to accomplish the kinds of thing he demands-- things he thinks it insane or evil or foolish of all Americans not to demand-- would entail ripping the US Constitution to shreds and instituting a system of fascistic mind control and coercion of conscience.

Oh yeah, instituting a bit of critical thinking in our culture would be fascism. Right. But mental slavery is acceptable. You think funny, yashu.

Things like banishing the idea of or belief in heaven and other such "fairy tale" thinking

Becoming a society that calls "bullshit" on easily debunked concepts is fascism. Right.

Forcibly preventing "cultists" (like Mormons) from rising to political power,...

Um, I've seen several rise to power - it always ends in bloodshed. Where's the up-side, yashu?

having some law or enforcement of some law that would have prevented Oprah from making her millions selling whatever it is she sells and others freely buy, because it's "fraudulent." Also fraudulent: selling vitamins. Etc.

Yeah - actually enforcing the laws on fraud would be fascism. Right.

Fuck toleration. For Crack, these things are not to be tolerated, and it's just insane that we as Americans do tolerate them. It's intolerable!

It seems to me part of the economic problem we face is because we're a people used to throwing money down rat holes - many of them completely avoidable.

Learning to stop doing that would be fascism. Right.

It seems like Crack would think it perfectly reasonable, if not imperative, to institute a systematic nationwide "deprogramming" of citizens.

After 5 decades of this Maharishi-derived nonsense, yeah, I'd go for that - or do you think that would be "bad karma"?

Since everyone in the world except him seems asleep or blind to the monstrous threat of cultism-- everyone except him lives in false consciousness, we're all living in a cloud of illusion-- I suppose only a select group of people like him (truly enlightened minds) ought to bear the authority and responsibility of crafting and enforcing such a regime, which would rightfully distinguish between the cultish and non-cultish, the false and the true, superstition and reality, the fraudulent and the factual.

Look, just because you don't roam in the world of cult critics (Scientology seems to be catching a bit of hell, or haven't you noticed?) don't try to make it like it's just me:

It's just you who are too dumb to get what's going on.

Obviously you would have to find a way to criminalize the kind of fraudulent behavior Oprah and and other cultists engage in.

Yeah - enforce the laws on fraud. Duh.

But who would have the authority to judge and how could one judge such a thing?

You can judge:

Try opening up "The Secret," and if those people James Arthur Ray killed come back to life, he's free to go.

I guess that might require something like an Inquisition. The Macho Response!

You know, like the McCarthy Trails, in light of everything that's happening, I'm starting to see the Inquisition in a whole new light, now that you mention it,...

yashu said...

Thanks for validating pretty much everything I said, Crack.

I'll give you this, you have the balls to own your hardcore convictions-- which you acknowledge are pretty much as I described them. Just as in an earlier argument between us, you didn't back off your stated conviction that Breivik had good justifiable reasons for doing what he did.

Obviously you and I see the consequences, implications, and presuppositions of your convictions very differently. To put it mildly. I see them as monstrous; you see me (someone who would vote for Romney and thus condone "cultism") as monstrous.

It is what it is.

Ross said...

The Crack Emcee said…
No, Mark, you can't tell me anything because I know more than you'll ever let on. I know Mormons are atheological, so your being a bishop doesn't mean shit to me - you'll "lie for the Lord" in a heartbeat, and I know it.


First, Mormons are not atheists. Get your vocabulary straight. Also, Mormons aren’t supposed to lie. In fact, I don’t recall purposely lying to anyone since I was baptized seven years ago. I strive not to lie.

F*** tithing - why aren't you calling the Joseph Smith Mummy story false? Because it isn't. The leader of your cult was a liar and a fraud - which makes YOU a liar and a fraud. You're no Christian. You're just a fool who will say anything in the hope you can get more people to tell what to do.

Hey, a point we agree on. I concur, the Joseph Smith story isn’t false. Also, it’s strange that the Holy Ghost would reveal to me that the Book of Mormon is true and yet you claim the prophet who translated it is a fraud. Something isn’t adding up here and I don’t think it’s God who is mistaken. And not Christians? I’ll let the scriptures speak for themselves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20)

What happened to polygamy and the "church," Mark? That was a major tenet of your "faith." Oh yeah - you gave it up to cut a deal. What happened to blacks being less-than? Oh yeah - you gave it up to cut a deal.

It’s called revelation. And we’ve discussed blacks and the priesthood previously Crack. So to summarize, God can do what he wants with his church. Though I have to ask, were you angry when Peter received a revelation extending the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles? I hope so if you want to be consistent. Or how about ending circumcision? Does that anger you? I doubt it.
If Salt Lake City is full of so many evil people, then perhaps you should go move where it’s less evil and the people have compatible beliefs.

jr565 said...

Crack emcee wrote:
jr, I told you, you're too stupid for me to want to deal with. I give you answers and you keep coming back with the same nonsense. Look, if Oprah making millions, and Rhonda Byrne making multiples of that, and James Arthur Ray killing people - all from the wishful thinking promises of "The Secret" - isn't enough to wake you up, then I can't help you:

and I'm getting tired of you referring to people as stupid who disagree with you all the time. You're not winning your arguments that way. For the record, Oprah and rhonda have a right to make money off off products they sell, so longs they are sold legally, and people have a right to believe things, even new age things without there needing to be an investigation. It may be a belief that I don't share, but they are entitled to it. What are you, the thought police?
And that doesn't make me a defender of cults, so much as a defender of the free market and freedom of ideas. If you believe in both, then cults will have their place in this society, whether you are in them or not.

jr565 said...

Crack emcee wrote:
jr, I told you, you're too stupid for me to want to deal with. I give you answers and you keep coming back with the same nonsense. Look, if Oprah making millions, and Rhonda Byrne making multiples of that, and James Arthur Ray killing people - all from the wishful thinking promises of "The Secret" - isn't enough to wake you up, then I can't help you:

and I'm getting tired of you referring to people as stupid who disagree with you all the time. You're not winning your arguments that way. For the record, Oprah and rhonda have a right to make money off off products they sell, so longs they are sold legally, and people have a right to believe things, even new age things without there needing to be an investigation. It may be a belief that I don't share, but they are entitled to it. What are you, the thought police?
And that doesn't make me a defender of cults, so much as a defender of the free market and freedom of ideas. If you believe in both, then cults will have their place in this society, whether you are in them or not.

Christopher in MA said...

Can we please refrain from indulging Crack's Protocols of the Elders of Salt Lake City paranoia?

damikesc said...

As such, this imbecile

Outside of him being a Republican, what, EXACTLY, makes him an "imbecile"? His legal AND business degrees? His turning around of the SLC Olympic bid?

Republicans are simply not serious about leadership. They are too lazy to do anything other than to identify ANOTHER authority - preferably in the financial or theological spheres of influence, and swear fealty to that person or persons.

That you say that as an Obama supporter is the kind of irony experts have a hard time writing.

jr565 said...

Crack wrote:
Oh yeah, instituting a bit of critical thinking in our culture would be fascism. Right. But mental slavery is acceptable. You think funny, yashu.

crack, I don't think you really believe in critical thinking. I think you simply want everyone to believe what you do or they are villains. And this is true whether it's about cults or even about music. I remember your conversation there too, and even there one must believe in the musical hierarchy AS DEFINED BY CRACK. Even thou there is no such thing as a musical hierarchy, it's all subjective. Yes, the Beatles are generally considere the best band, but it's not as if there is an actual ranking system that is set in stone. It's simply subjective opinions of critics announcing their preference. But no one has the right answer.
Critical thinking does not mean believe everything Crack believes. Critical thinking means having an open mind, coming to your own conclusions based on criterion you put into your thought and then coming up with a belief system that makes sense. For some people, that's going to be crystals and numerology. Now, I may think its stupid, and you may think its stupid, but that doesn't mean that they didn't use critical thinking. Believe me, I'm not happy that half the country is voting for a socialist, or think liberal policies make any sense, but I can't FORCE anyone to change their views. Which is what it sounds like what you're asking for when you say INSTITUTE a bit of critical thinking.
As to mental slavery, as Marley sang "emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds". Ou wont emancipate people by forcing them to adopt Crack ideology 101. And note, marley supposedly emancipated himself and freed his mind, yet ended up following Sellasie. Dd he then in fact emancipate himself? According to him, he did. According to you, or me, probably not. The point though is still valid. So, if people end up joining cults, or enlivening in stupid things, or religions,it's up to them to save themselves. Maybe they don't even want saving. Maybe they feel they are emancipated believing in numerology.
What can I do about it? Put people in jail who sell books about numerology? Make numerology illegal? I can be critical of numerology sure, but for people who do believe in numerology I'm wrong since of course to them numerology is valid.

Smilin' Jack said...

Is the caricature of Romney as "hollow, cynical and inauthentic" attributable to downplaying Mormonism?"

Yes. He should emphasize the fact that he's batshit crazy--that appeals to voters. Sadly, I'm not being sarcastic.