June 23, 2012

"Should Ann Romney become first lady, perhaps she can promote the therapeutic benefits of horseback riding..."

"... and encourage a culture that funnels the countless unwanted or retired horses to riding farms where emotionally or physically distressed people can enjoy the special communion between human and horse."

Michelle Obama wants to take away your cheeseburgers, but with Ann Romney, everybody gets a pony!

By the way, attacking Ann Romney about her horses was a big mistake, and not just because of this MS/disability angle. Women and horses. It's a thing. Not for all women, but for some women. Do not interfere with a woman and her horse! There's a mystical connection there. Break it up and you create some dangerous energy.
Without question, there is a connection between women and horses. This bond lures both young girls and older women into a web of seduction.
My humble beginnings with horses has enlightened me not only to the ways and wiles of horses, but also to a greater understanding of how it is that women are so inextricably intertwined with them, for better or for worse, and why horses are so powerfully attractive to women.
For better or for worse! See what I mean?
... To say I had an interest in horses is a gross understatement, for if I had been able to transform myself into a horse, I would have gone to live with the herd in a heartbeat.

... I was very shy and quiet in my youth, but came to life with the horses.... While my parents were concerned that I never seemed to talk much, the dialogue with my herd mates was never-ending. My infatuation turned to a lifetime passion.

It wasn't until I was a young adult that I began to question where my connection to horses came from and how I had gained the ability to understand horses so well. How was it that I knew the things I knew about horses that no one had ever taught me? Was it genetic memory? Was I born with some sort of sixth sense or mystical ability that allowed me to communicate with horses in a way that others couldn't grasp?
This essay, by  Julie Goodnight, goes on and on in that vein. Skipping ahead, we get to a fascinating feminist viewpoint:
On a deeper level, I believe women can connect with horses from a shared understanding of what it is like to be a prey animal. In spite of the fact that humans are considered to be predators and, in fact, the number one predator of horses for more than 150,000 years, women are more accustomed to being prey than being predator. Throughout history, women have been oppressed and victimized by individual males who are physically stronger by nature.... Both women and horses understand what it means to be vulnerable and I think that as a result, the psyches of both horses and women are connected deep within as strong, spirited animals with true vulnerabilities that lie just below the surface. As women, we know what it is like to have our rights infringed upon. We know what it is like to fear for our own safety and survival. In some cases, we understand what it is like to be captive and powerless to determine our own fate....
Got that? The attack on Ann Romney's horse activity is part of a War on Women!

Freudian analysis of the day: Do women hear "whores" when they hear "horse"?

214 comments:

1 – 200 of 214   Newer›   Newest»
Pogo said...

"Freudian analysis of the day: Do women hear "whores" when they hear "horse"?

Neeeigh!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

dreams said...

I thought of that connection too.

Ron said...

You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think!

rhhardin said...

Vicki Hearne:

``For example, I was once involved in a panel discussion at which the idea was voiced and elaborated that riding horses was a good way for girls to prepare for marriage because it gave them practice controlling something powerful and dangerous between their legs. I thought, and at enormous risk of self- exposure said, that controlling something powerful and dangerous between my legs didn't characterize either marriage or horsemanship as I had experienced them. It is true that some activities that fall under the heading ``sex'' can be dangerous, but before AIDS it was the thing the man sometimes had in his hand, and not the thing between his legs, that was worrisome. And there are some differences between husbands and horses that I thought worthy of consideration, including the fact that in the case of husbands direct mutual genital contact is to the point, whereas it interferes with horsemanship. I don't doubt that it is possible, only that it is horsemanship.

``The persons propounding the P&D Between Your Legs theory were both male shrinks, and Lord knows what they made of me, given their experience of horses and other things between their legs.

``I am sorry to speak so crudely. There are many men of subtle and strong hearts and intellects who quite easily distinguish between horses and penises''

Vicki Hearne, _Bandit_, p.205

more

``..Rota identifies the illusions necessary to mathematics with the faith that sustains a friend of his who is a priest. Women refuse such illusions or, say, don't care about them, are able to remain relatively calm in the face of the fact that there are issues that won't be settled once and for all, such as the exact nature of the universe or exactly what Daffodil means when she cocks her head and sticks her tongue out at you. I do not mean that women working with animals are satisfied with oversimplified or partial theories of animals, only that their minds are complex enough to sustain their contact with what they do know while noting also where their knowledge of Daffodil leaves off''

``...I keep thinking: Men are afraid of horses. They are afraid of horses because neither their professional integrity nor logic will take them to a horse, and because they do not know how to turn, deflect, a horse's fear or rage. If Dobbin says, ``You'd better get off right now, because I am going to kill you, wrangler!'' you don't of course ignore this, but it is possible to say, ``Oh, I don't think you really want to do that. Why don't we try something else?'' (Just as Moses' wife said to Yahweh when Yahweh was intent on killing Moses.) As it happens, a talented young male rider can be as formidably equipped with equestrian tact as anyone, but in the general run of things in the middle and upper classes in this country, it is the young women who are more likely than the young men to come up with a tactful rather than frightened response, and when they become foolish about this later - silliness is a feminine failing - they will say that they knew the horse had good intentions all along.

``For centuries, unable to prove Dobbin's good intentions, men have instead proven their courage on horseback...''

Vicki Hearne, _Bandit: Dossier of a Dangerous Dog_ Harper-Collins, NY, 1991, p. 221, 219

I'd point out "silliness is a feminine failing" in connection with Obama.

AllieOop said...

Ballad of a Runaway Horse, Emmylou Harris. Hauntingly beautiful song of a woman and her horse. I rode when I was a girl, my favorite was a Golden Palomino, many good memories.

Sorun said...

As women, we know what it is like to have our rights infringed upon. We know what it is like to fear for our own safety and survival.

Oh, jeez. Men, with their history of hunting, warring, and exploring, know nothing of fear as compared to women.

Also, a mare leads a horse herd, and you'd probably rather be a lower ranking stallion than a lower ranking mare.

Colonel Angus said...

I read a biography of Alexander the Great that suggested his lack of desire for females was that he once saw an aroused stud. Never could quite understand that considering his attraction to Hephastion.

Old Dad said...

I've been in and out of various "horse circles" for the past 20 years. My youngest daughter rode English and was damn good at it. At her various barns, all the trainers were women, as were at least 95% of the riders. I tried to get my son to take an interest because the odds were so good, but he scored chicks the old fashioned way. Some of the girls were a bit tomboyish, most were pretty tough emotionally and all were physically strong--the sport required it. I didn't notice much overt feminism, but the women seemed natural and strong, and took no shit for the most part.

When the daughter was older she switched to western style. Lot's more guys ride western. I'd say the balance was about 50/50.

Now she's married and her husband is a cowboy. He rodeos. Of course there are girl barrel riders, but there are also a few girls in most events, not many, but a few. The girl rodeoers that I know are all tough as hell.

I don't think I have much gaydar, but my impression is that the vast majority of horsewomen that I knew were straight. No one really gave a damn one way or the other.

My advice--don't get between a woman and her horse.

AprilApple said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

Cat Power recast the Highwaymen's "Silver Stallion" from a woman's point of view with an outstanding guitar arrangement by Wisconsin's own Judah Bauer (ex-Blues Explosion):

link

Ann Althouse said...

I'm gonna' catch that horse if I can
And when I do I'll give her my brand
And we'll be friends for life
She'll be just like a wife
I'm gonna' catch that horse if I can

AprilApple said...

"Woman and horses. It's a thing."

Yes it is.
I have a client who went through breast cancer. Twice. Her horses are her salvation. They give her peace.
My 16 year old nephew, who is the best dang kid in the whole world, donates his time over the summer to assist disabled children while they ride horses.

Horses, as with money,-- OK for the left, not OK for you.

Michael K said...

My daughters got into the horse thing when they were adolescents. I narrowly avoided owning a horse at one point. Or at least half a horse. Fortunately, the other parents saved me from having to say no. The horse interest faded as they got older but all three girls went through it. The fact that we lived in an area where horses are available and convenient to ride helped. Friends actually owned a stable and still do although they moved to another part of the state.

I don't think all the feminist theorizing explains it. It was an adolescent thing.

The Drill SGT said...

I'm sorry. I normally try to be civil and polite in all things, but the phrase:

"woman and her horse" conjures up the desire of a woman who desires to have a powerful beast between her legs, yet under her control...

Michael K said...

"I read a biography of Alexander the Great that suggested his lack of desire for females was that he once saw an aroused stud."

I have read a lot about him. I suspect his disinterest was more to do with his mother. She was quite a disincentive to get too interested in women, especially given the culture of classical Greece.

Donald Douglas said...

Unrelated, Ann, but if you get a chance can you give this a shout out? "Debunking Rachel Maddow's Lies About 'Fast and Furious': MSNBC Hack Falsely Claims Scandal Just Like Shirley Sherrod 'Conspiracy'". Thanks.

P.S. Your takedown of Anne-Marie Slaughter was da bomb. Gonna link that later.

Rose said...

The notion that horses are 'vulnerable' - or that it implies we are vulnerable is absurd and ridiculous. It was being able to ride that made us powerful - able to travel long distances, haul the trappings of civilization, ride like the wind - it is incredibly EMPOWERING for BOTH men and women - all of mankind.

It helped get us out of that primal ooze.

The entire problem with modern (and mostly liberal) thought is their absolute lack of connection to the real world, and lack of memory of who and what we are and what we've been through, how we got here and survived as a species. (Hint, it wasn't by virtue of seat belt and cellphone laws)

I know - they think if they can just ban 32 oz soft drinks they can cure all of man's afflictions. They're beginning to drive me insane.

dreams said...

Roy Rogers had a golden palomino. I rode our farm horse named Bob growing up on the farm, he was a good looking horse, red roan with a white blaze face. Good memories.

rick said...

Ron said: You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think!

"whore to culture"?

Great, first it was women and horses. Now it's prostitutes and plant life.

Seeing Red said...

Ummm, What did Spielberg do for his wife again?


Got his neighbors in an uproar cutting down trees for a 27,000 sf. riding ring?


Oh, look Kate & Ann have something in common.

They could actually promote those benefits, too.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

"Do women hear "whores" when they hear "horse"?

I wouldn't think so. 'The cavalry rides to the rescue.' So the horse is identified here with a historically masculine activity. , horse in Spanish, is a masculine noun. A specifically female horse is often referred to as a 'mare.' An odd school yard 'fact' is that Catherine the Great had sex with a horse(s). At least among the males, no one thought of this in terms of it improving the horse's economic position.

AprilApple said...

Rich leftwing democrat-supporting ivory tower celebrities with horses? OK!

Ann Romney has a horse!? To help her with her MS? *collective progressive outrage* Why that bitch! She's so out of touch! waaaaaa no faaaiiir.

AprilApple said...

I don't know how to link properly:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/neil-cavuto-blasts-horses-asses-at-msnbc-for-mocking-ann-romneys-horseback-ms-treatment/

The radical leftist hacks at the joke network MSNBC can suck it.

VanderDouchen said...

Horse women. That is all.

Chip Ahoy said...

Mary and Gary Hennigan wanted to show me the bayou at the back of their property but they were afraid of a horse out there in the pasture that charged them. Their sister-in-law is a tiny woman who had a non-whispering way with horses.

Either a stick magically appeared on the treeless pasture or she took one with her out there. All four of us walked together. Right in the middle the horse charged. The little bitty woman stepped forward form our group and held the stick up high and horse stopped short. Errrrrrrrrk horse brakes. Like a cartoon. She took one more step forward and the horse took off.

She won our admiration but it did make us wonder, is this really the way horses are trained? *whispers* her child was not well behaved.

edutcher said...

As I said when the Lefties were dumb enough to start this one, going after a sick woman is just asking for trouble.

PS A lot of women used to let their husbands or boyfriends take them to Westerns at the movies because the women liked looking at the horses.

For the same reason, The Blonde likes looking at the old TV Westerns specifically because of some of the unusual horses like the mahogany bay appaloosa Robert Horton rode in "Wagon Train" or Clu Gulager's Isabella on "The Virginian" (she likes appaloosas, palominos, and pintos, but never liked the varnish roan appaloosa Jim Drury rode).

As she says, "Save a horse, ride a cowboy".

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

A specifically female horse is often referred to as a 'mare.'

Always, not often, unless pseaking of herses generically.

Male horses are stallions or geldings.

An odd school yard 'fact' is that Catherine the Great had sex with a horse(s).

So odd it's nothing but Bonapartist propaganda.

The TrogloPundit said...

What is it with chicks and horses, huh?

Conserve Liberty said...

Kennedy

ken in sc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ken in sc said...

Early horses had weak backs. This is why ancient royalty rode donkeys or mules. This is also why ancient armies used chariots instead of mounted cavalry. That plus the fact the stirrup had not been invented yet. Modern horses are the product of countless generations of selective breeding.

Tim DeRoche said...

In college I worked at a Montessori-style school. One of 1st-grade girls spent most of her time drawing elaborate pictures of horses in prom dresses.

wyo sis said...

Wow!
Ann Romney likes horses. Many women and girls like horses. There must be something kinky, weird, political, evil, useful, nasty, about it.

Michelle Obama was never proud of America until her husband was considered as a candidate for President, many American people, not just women, feel the same. There must be something kinky, weird, political,evil, useful, nasty about it.

leslyn said...

And shoes. If a woman has a lot of shoes, don't try to come between her and her shoes.

From a Shoe Lover.

SunnyJ said...

Horses and women are "flight" sympathetic nervous system responders as opposed to men who are "fight"...there are ofcourse always outliers...the alpha mare will fight and some men will run like hell.

The equine world is female dominated: owners, riders, trainers, stable/groomswomen and the billion dollar equine economy is supported by women...the famous 99% that are not wealthy. Infact, you will see women living in hovels while owning hundred thousand dollar indoor arenas, saddles & tack and horses.

Old creepy horse guys at auctions have 16 yr old horsecrazy girlfriends for a reason. It's a mutual admiration society...who has the horse and who wants the horse.

Out here in the country we at least have a pony in our pile of horseshit!

AprilApple said...

Note too how the media cannot say anything nice about the Romneys. Everything the media regurgitates is tinged with an "oh they are so out of touch" narrative.
Of course this is the same media that slobbers over Obama, ignores Obama administration failures and covers each and every political story with a pro-Obama spin.

Sea Urchin said...

Another Women and Horses song, by the folk band Eddie from Ohio, Horse.

When I was a kid, I was way into horse books -- Misty of Chincoteague and the like -- but only rode horses a couple of times and was not that intrigued by the actual experience. My sister, who lives in the country and has three little girls, has already admitted that she's pretty much doomed to be a horse owner, now. The four year old is already begging.

dreams said...

"Note too how the media cannot say anything nice about the Romneys. Everything the media regurgitates is tinged with an "oh they are so out of touch" narrative.
Of course this is the same media that slobbers over Obama, ignores Obama administration failures and covers each and every political story with a pro-Obama spin."

Liberal bias, say that to most people and watch them smirk, but they are the ones most uninformed. I've learned that most people don't read, they just get their news from TV or what they hear actors say on their favorite TV show.

Bob_R said...

Back on the farm there were always crude jokes about girls and their vibrators with four hoofs. An early girlfriend claimed that riding had relieved her of her hymen, making er first sexual encounter less painful.

Bob_R said...

Love Eddie from Ohio.

Mary Beth said...

rick said...
Ron said: You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think!
"whore to culture"?


It's a quotation attributed to Dorthy Parker when she was asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence.

greenlantern said...

Let us not forget one of history's greatest horse lovers, Catherine the Great, who first said the famous line, "He vas my boyfriend!"

Apologies to the great Cloris Leachman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBx8JNarOlg

acm said...

I am disappointed. I was sure that 41 comments in, there would be at least one Sarah Jessica Parker joke on this thread.

Old Dad said...

acm,

Why the long face?

traditionalguy said...

The horse is a universal symbol strength. Men and women feel that way about them. Is it the eyes or the powerful necks?

Women instinctively feel a need for bonding with the strongest animal, be it a man or a horse.

Anne Romney way yet win this election for Mitt just by being real.

There is a therapy of stable horses being cared for by child sex abuse victims that helps the childern feel that they are not powerless anymore.

After bonding with horses, they begin to feel that having a relationship with a very powerful horse, no male authority figure had better ever hurt them again.

A. Shmendrik said...

What - the retired horses don't get a break from working?

leslyn said...

@OldDad, 11:26 A.M.

Have you been talking to my dad in the great beyond? You're telling my sister's story. Her personality and that of her husband's are some of the reasons I love them so much.

rick said...

Secretariat. One of the greatest woman/horse movies of all time. A woman and her horse vs. the male dominated field (so to speak).

rick said...

PS: I am aware Secretariat was not female.

Larry J said...

Ronald Reagan used to say the "the best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse."

The Crack Emcee said...

Ann,

Do not interfere with a woman and her horse! There's a mystical connection there. Break it up and you create some dangerous energy.

"A mystical connection" and "energy."

No, you're not a NewAger, you just sound exactly like Reille Hunter talking about meeting John Edwards. I know:

I'm "vicious" and a "witch on wheels"...

Michael K said...

"That plus the fact the stirrup had not been invented yet. "

THis was the most significant reason why cavalry were limited. The invention of the horse collar was probably the greatest advance in agriculture until the gasoline engine.

The Crack Emcee said...

BTW - Ann Romney is a NewAge nut job, totally into quackery, whose own parents can't even enter the "secret" temple she worships in. Is that another example of how "nice" Mormons are?

Oh, I'm sorry - did I mention another unmentionable again? Damn it, I so want you guys to keep putting fake gold on this lead legend you guys are inscribing.

Fuck Ann Romney. Fuck MS. Fuck horses. And fuck this bullshit propaganda campaign you assholes are engaged in:

Like LaBron James, I'm going to be here when your delusions come apart in your face,...

alan markus said...

Was this an issue for Jackie Kennedy? As soon as I started reading these comments, Jackie Kennedy came to mind. Let's hope the Dems should keep this up for awhile - I don't think it would hurt Ann Romney to be compared to Jackie Kennedy.

The Private Passion of Jackie Kennedy Onassis: Portrait of a Rider

In The Private Passion of Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Vicky Moon illuminates just how vital a role horses played throughout Jackie's often tumultuous life. Jackie's mother propped her up on a horse when she was just a year old, and throughout her childhood Jackie turned to her pony Buddy to distract her from the stress of her parents' precarious marriage. As a woman struggling under the intense pressures of her role as First Lady, riding a horse through the countryside was a much-needed tonic. And later in her life, as a mourning widow and then a reluctant celebrity, riding offered Jackie peace and privacy. Whether cantering up and down the emerald hills of Ireland, galloping through the woods in New Jersey, racing cross-country, or taking long, quiet rides with her children down the dirt trails of Virginia's hunt country, Jackie's lifelong passion for horses was a mainstay during difficult years, a refuge from a life in the limelight, and a constant source of joy.

Now, in addition to the elegant, stunning images from every stage of her life -- photographs taken while out riding to the hounds, at the steeplechase with Jack, with Caroline on her pony -- Jackie's story unfolds through Moon's fresh and engaging narrative, sprinkled with anecdotes and memories from those who knew Jackie not only as one of the most admired women in the world, but simply as a graceful and talented horsewoman.

Meade said...

Ron said...
"You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think!"

As a professional hoer, I find that remark sexist.

WV: formoney284 (I kid you not)

AprilApple said...

"Horses that compete and breed at the Olympic level typically are business investments, as Lawrence O’Donnell [joke network hack] surely knows. But the talking point must be made — and made and made — that the Romneys aren’t like the rest of us working stiffs. They have big ol’ fancy cars and horses and stuff. And they make lots of money, too. (Oh, and by the way, television anchors do rather well. What’s with the guilt?)
And why this war on success? People who are struggling through rough economic times didn’t suddenly become stupid, and surely most see through this absurd, sustained attack on the Romneys, whose only apparent sin is having been successful.

Romney’s opponents seem to be aghast that he has made money for investors (aren’t we all investors?), though they studiously ignore other greed-less facts: He never took a dime in salary for heading the Olympics in Salt Lake City nor as governor of Massachusetts, to mention a couple."


Good stuff from Parker for a change.

Old Dad said...

Crack said,

"Like LaBron James, I'm going to be here when your delusions come apart in your face,..."

Oh yeah, well LeBron James was a Cavalier and that means knight and they rode horses.

And you best not try to fuck Mrs. Romney; the Secret Service won't appreciate it. I don't think that MS can be fucked, but you can try. I guess you might fuck a horse, but good luck, and bring a step stool.

alan markus said...

@ SunnyJ: T...the famous 99% that are not wealthy. In fact, you will see women living in hovels while owning hundred thousand dollar indoor arenas, saddles & tack and horses

Or you might have this:

Woman accused of using embezzled money to run horse farm: FBI alleges woman embezzled millions from Illinois city

A government official in Illinois is accused of embezzling her city's finances.

The FBI said Rita Crundwell embezzled millions in part to run her Beloit horse farm.


Later reports put the amount at $30,000,000

36fsfiend said...

Those $77K tax write-offs are pretty sweet too.

Jason said...

Those $77,000 in write-offs represent expenses, you ignorant turd.

Cedarford said...

Fuck Ann Romney. Fuck MS. Fuck horses. And fuck this bullshit propaganda campaign you assholes are engaged in:

-----------------
Poor Cracky has appeared to go deep off the rails.
Unless Obama's opponent is 100% perfect and passes each of Cracky's purity tests - Cracky hates!

Go! Way to make yourself another totally irrelevant crank like Birther
mick, there, Cracky!

Jason said...

Oooh, look. Cedarford's calling Crack a "crank."

Well, ain't THAT just like a rat callin' a fox a "long-snouted varmint!?!?!"

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you. I have expenses with my hobby but I don't get to write them off. Would be nice though.

Beldar said...

There are several very fine theraputic riding programs for disabled veterans. Time invested with a good horse, or a good dog, can help us cope better as humans.

God said...

This is a strong contender for most ridiculous Althouse post... evah...

So Ann Romney likes horses. And you want to shit on her for that, Althouse?

Seriously?

I suggest you just resume the Romney-love, Obama-hate, all-other-alternatives-ignorance that you are so good at.

Whatever happened to cruel neutrality???

Y'er blog ain't cruel, nor neutral, anymore...

AprilApple said...

Who would pass the Cracky purity test?

The Dem left don't have purity tests. Hence: John Edwards.

rick said...

Drug cartels are laundering $$ through race horses.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-13/drug-cartel-laundered-money-through-racehorses-u-s-says.html

MSNBC will be reporting the connection to the Romneys any time now.

rick said...

Crack, please get some rest. You're sounding good. Really.

AprilApple said...

God, you dumbass, Ann Althouse isn't "shitting on Ann Romney" for liking horses. Lawrence O'Donnell and the hacks at MSNBC are the ones shitting on Ann Romney for her horse interest.
We, and Kathleen Parker, and others are just pointing and laughing at MSNBC. In a cruel and neutral way.

Seeing Red said...

LOLOLOL off of Drudge:

Green ‘drivel’ exposed 333
The godfather of global warming lowers the boom on climate change hysteria

Dust Bunny Queen said...


Bless you. I have expenses with my hobby but I don't get to write them off. Would be nice though


Well, then perhaps you should get smart and find out how to turn your hobby into a business venture. Then you would get to write them off. Doh!!!

God said...

@AprilApple -

Oh, my bad. I didn't get that the tone of this post was right in line with the standard Romney-supporting that Althouse has been continuously posting under the cover of "cruel neutrality". I'm not so into the hush-hush, you know...

Anyway, carry on! Soon you will get your Romney, Althouse, and then you will find that he is as disappointing as Obama... and maybe-- someday!-- history will ascribe all the malfeasance and corruption of these idiots to those who shilled for them, like you are doing...

36fsfiend said...

Dust Bunny Queen,

Yes, I probably shouldn't have wasted all that time in the service and gone into some type of business that would let me afford expensive hobbies.

Silly me.

Jason said...

36fiend,

If you hobby made money, or you entered in it with the reasonable expectation of making money, you moron, and you actually did make money in 3 out of 5 years, you, too, can deduct expenses. You're an ignorant buffoon talking out of your ass, so I'll just suggest you familiarize yourself with A.)Hobby loss rules, and B.) IRS rules concerning the tax treatment of livestock, including depreciation, maintenance and care/feeding/shelter, capitalization of purchase price of livestock and needed equipment and tax-free like-kind exchanges of livestock.

Until then, you're much better off shutting up and not demonstrating yourself as an ignorant hack.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ 36

Oh, stop whining. If you have a hobby and want to write off expenses, start a little business. If you don't want to do that then stop being such a jealous little prick about people who do.

Almost any hobby can become a business venture, especially in these internet days. Knitting, fly tying, decorative painting, woodworking, metal fabrication, antiques and collectibles.

wyo sis said...

All politicians are disappointing. It's part of being human that you'll never find a person you agree with all the time. You just have to settle for the best of the choices you're offered. Sort of like life. But, you can work on getting better choices.

As for Crack, he's serious about what he believes. I don't agree with him and it isn't my style to react the way he does, but I admire his drive. If I felt that strongly about something I'd hope I would be just as passionate in defending it.

Old Dad said...

God said:

"and maybe-- someday!-- history will ascribe all the malfeasance and corruption of these idiots to those who shilled for them, like you are doing..."

I'm so disappointed. Don't you know? You're omniscient.

Lem said...

While Obama is killing horses..

Ann Romney rides them.

Obama has a horse kill list.

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you.

I thought hobbies weren't supposed to be businesses? Isn't that the idea of a hobby - to get you away from the job?

36fsfiend said...

Dust Bunny Queen,

Almost any hobby can become a business venture? Interesting. When does it stop being a hobby and become a business?

Simon Kenton said...

"Mystical connection...." Ol' Bob was telling me about how his wife and the trainer sent out birth announcements when one of the mares dropped a grand-son of Secretariat. "Pair a nulliparous women. They was completely twitter-pated by that damn little horse. And if you think I said one god-damn word about them birth announcements, if you think I did any god-damn thing but pay the vet, you better think again, Simon."

Now, I got no use for horses as a general thing. There's nothing they can do that a good mountain bike can't do just as well, but without the motiveless malignity and the co-dependence. But even I have to admit that little horse was a charmer. Why heck, the way he'd steal up behind you and give you a bite right smack in the left kidney....

The Crack Emcee said...

AprilApple,

Who would pass the Cracky purity test?

The Dem left don't have purity tests. Hence: John Edwards.


Um, you're confused - I'm an Althouse Hillbilly:

AKA the "neo" in neoconservative.

But - as I was just pointing out to wys sis on another thread - the whitewashing of this cult and it's members, whenthat cult's been engaged in "scathing and often personal attacks" against those investigating it's origins is bullshit.

You're all lying about everything - Ann Romney's horses mean nothing - and Ann Althouse even bringing it up nails her, once again, as a rube in politics, just as she proved to be on 2008.

Both Mitt and Ann Romney are iconic defenders of evil:

Nothing more and nothing less,....

Jason said...

36sfiend...

You're just determined to show off how stupid you are to your betters aren't you?

I just told you what to go look up. The grown-ups have better things to do than hold your hand and wipe your nose. You're on your own now. Go look up "hobby loss rules" and get back to us.

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Are you my better?

Jason said...

On this?

Yes. Not even close, fool.

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you.

I see. I'll look up "hobby loss rules" but since my hobby is, you know, a hobby, I don't see getting a tax write off for it.

Old Dad said...

Simon Kent said:

"There's nothing they [horses] can do that a good mountain bike can't do just as well."

Drop a foal? Jump a four foot fence without a ramp? Take a dump?

AprilApple said...

Obama is such a disaster, and the mainstream press is so in the tank, both must be neutralized. If that comes off as pro-Romney - then tough.

wyo sis said...

Crack
I respect you, you seem to really believe Mormons are evil incarnate. Under that presumption you are behaving just like I'd expect. I don't agree with you. Under that presumption I'm behaving just like you would expect.

acm said...

36, if you don't want to sully your sacred hobbies, that's your business. The Romneys' horse is actually going to the Olympics, though, and I daresay that other taxpayers whose hobbies have reached that level claim a deduction for their expenses. Anyway, lots of people have businesses that are also hobbies---blogging, Etsy shops, etc.

dreams said...

"Anyway, carry on! Soon you will get your Romney, Althouse, and then you will find that he is as disappointing as Obama... and maybe-- someday!-- history will ascribe all the malfeasance and corruption of these idiots to those who shilled for them, like you are doing..."

I think Romney will be good for our country much like Ronald Reagan was though it is too much to hope that he will be as good as our third greatest President in history. I'm confident that he won't be like Obama who has been a total failure as President.

The Crack Emcee said...

AprilApple,

Obama is such a disaster, and the mainstream press is so in the tank, both must be neutralized. If that comes off as pro-Romney - then tough.

Great statement - for avoiding the point. First you mischaracterize me, then - when you're wrong - you go for the dodge, hoping I'll ignore your support for a cult and it's members through a mutual hatred for another Obama.

It won't work.

You are as bad as the worst Obama supporter, resorting to the same tactics to achieve the same goal:

To insert a fraud, with values that go against the country's, in the White House.

Let's call it "False Hope and No Change"....

36fsfiend said...

Acm,

If you want to spend six figures on a horse, or $3 million for a model railroad layout, or $100 dollars an hour to fly a light airplane on the weekends because that gives you relaxation and enjoyment, then good for you.

Why it should be subsidized by the government doesn’t make sense to me.

Fen said...

Somebody grab Crack, I'll call up a few good deprogrammers I know..

alan markus said...

The problem with your hobby, 36sfiend, is that there isn't much income to be made trading "My Little Pony" toys, so your hobby expenses are moot.

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

Crack
I respect you, you seem to really believe Mormons are evil incarnate. Under that presumption you are behaving just like I'd expect. I don't agree with you. Under that presumption I'm behaving just like you would expect.


Not true:

I am an atheist who is using the facts to make my case - you are ignoring those facts to make yours, based on your "beliefs."

Engage me on the facts and I will respect you as well:

Do you deny the Mormon "church" has carried out a campaign of "scathing and often personal attacks" on critics of it's origins - led by " a weekly columnist for the LDS Church-owned Deseret News" since 1979?

And if so, how can you have, repeatedly, defended the cult and it's members as "nice" when they - together - have been actively destroying the reputations and careers of individuals for presenting the historical facts?

You have been acting as their stooge, and participating in the deception about who they are and what they're up to, from Day One.

And this Ann Romney/horse nonsense is just more of the same,...

alan markus said...

at 36fsfiend: Why it should be subsidized by the government doesn’t make sense to me.

So then it doesn't make sense for the government to tax any income derived from the hobby, either.

Bad examples too - flying for relaxation, operating a model railway set for relaxation & enjoyment is not the same as deriving income from a hobby.

You don't seem able to get your head around the concept that some hobbies can generate taxable income.

Jason said...

Why it should be subsidized by the government doesn’t make sense to me.

That's because you're an ignorant buffoon who hasn't bothered to educate yourself about how it works. Here's a hint: The taxpayer doesn't "subsidize" hobbies.

God said...

Speaking of mystical connections...

Does anyone know if the Mormons killed all the horses too, when the killed all the people over the age of 8 at the massacre of Mountain Meadows?

It's an interesting massacre in its own right, whether the horses were killed or not... mostly for the "never apologize" dogma that Mormon leaders have adopted when speaking about the murders ever since.

I wonder if Romney will adopt a similar attitude of never admitting mistakes or wrong-doing when he is elected President?

Perhaps it is will be EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE FTW!!!

And an armed drone to back it up if that don't work...

36fsfiend said...

alan markus,

Why do I want to derive income from my "hobby"?

That's the idea of doing "business."

Jason said...

(Facepalm)

wyo sis said...

I don' confirm or deny it. I haven't studied it. My belief is based on faith and is not provable to a person who doen't think or believe that way. I've already said I believe it and I will accept whatever consequence comes as a result of it. That should be enough. If it isn't I have no way to satisfy you except by denying what I believe to be true. I am not going to do that.

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you.

If the government allows a tax write-off for something, that's a subsidy.

The Crack Emcee said...

Throughout history, women have been oppressed and victimized by individual males who are physically stronger by nature....

Like no man knows what that's like. Feminism is idiocy.

Why can't bitches admit they've got poor-to-no social skills, and do something to improve that, instead of putting all their fucked-up behavioral and mental problems on others?

Jason said...

Income tax is assessed on net income, not gross income, idiot.

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

I don' confirm or deny it. I haven't studied it.

But I have placed the evidence right in front of you.

My belief is based on faith and is not provable to a person who doen't think or believe that way.

We are not trying to prove if you have faith, but establish if it's justified, which - in the case of Mitt and Ann Romney and the Mormon "church" - it is not.

I've already said I believe it and I will accept whatever consequence comes as a result of it.

But you aren't doing that - the consequence of putting your faith in a lie is disillusionment. But, instead, you're doubling down. So you're lying - again.


That should be enough.

Only to those who "believe" in judgement for everyone but themselves.

If it isn't I have no way to satisfy you except by denying what I believe to be true. I am not going to do that.

I rest my case,....

acm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AprilApple said...

If the government allows a tax write-off for something, that's a subsidy.

No. A tax write off is not a subsidy.
For instance, if you make a donation and then write it off, part of that can be deducted from your tax liability. The government is NOT handing you a subsidy. sheesh.

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you.

Semantics. It's money in your pocket.

acm said...

The Crack Emcee said...


Why can't bitches admit they've got poor-to-no social skills, and do something to improve that, instead of putting all their fucked-up behavioral and mental problems on others?

_________________

There are no words appropriate for this level of irony and absence of self-awareness.

acm said...

Semantics. It's money in your pocket.

________________

Genius, the money is in your (or in this case, Romney's) pocket because you (or Romney) earned it. A subsidy is when the government hands you money, not when it so generously allows you to keep what you did earn.

Jason said...

It's not semantics, shit-for-brains. You aren't equipped to have an informed discussion with knowledgeable people.

That's not a bad thing... unless you insist on tryin to debate from a position of ignorance.

As you are.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

Come on now. Why do folks take deductions for donations to charity?

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Bless you.

It's all about more money in your pocket.

AprilApple said...

Semantics to leftists:
When the government allows you to keep some of your own money - it's a subsidy! lol.

wyo sis said...

I don't think it's a lie. I'm doubling down on what I think is true.

wyo sis said...

I have never said I believe in judgement for every one but myself. In fact, I say if I'm wrong I'll accept whatever judgement God gives me.

The Crack Emcee said...

acm,

There are no words appropriate for this level of irony and absence of self-awareness.

Look who's talking:

Who am I blaming for my language? The white man? Women?

You're an idiot, impressed by your own lack of intelligence - merely because you know the word "irony," but not how to use it.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

If you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes?

Jason said...

Oops... Gotta go! Someone's going to pay me money to play music!!! My hobby!!

36fsfiend said...

Jason,

Have fun. Be sure to thank Uncle Sam for any breaks on the taxes.

AprilApple said...

36-
Democrats want to destroy personal charitable giving and force us pay huge tax hikes to an unaccountable an inefficient government. We are to believe that government is charity. It's NOT!

Deductions on charitable giving are a way to help encourage giving. Only a leftist would find that objectionable. Now that said, I would be happy to give up charitable donation deductions in return for lower tax rates. Democrats will never go for that. They want to destroy charitable giving and hike taxes up the ying yang.

If you don't have a tax liability, you cannot write off a hobby.

Tax laws are tricky, and I think what you may be referring to is depreciation. Can a horse depreciate? I suppose.

AprilApple said...

Grovel at Uncle Sams feet for letting you keep some of your own money!

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

I don't think it's a lie. I'm doubling down on what I think is true.

No, you're not thinking but "believing," meaning you don't care if it's a lie.

As you said, you'll go on "believing" it anyway. No thinking person does that.

I have never said I believe in judgement for every one but myself.

You've been judging me pretty harshly for a few days now. But, faced with evidence of your own culpability, you excuse it on the basis of faith. What do you call that?

I say if I'm wrong I'll accept whatever judgement God gives me.

Oh, he's going to be mighty impressed by that argument:

"Lord, I was wrong to defend a dangerous cult started by an occult pedophile con man polygamist - and was presented with evidence I was wrong to defend that dangerous cult started by an occult pedophile con man polygamist - BUT I STUCK BY IT AND HELPED BRING IT TO POWER OVER THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!"

Considering that strange brand of metaphysical logic, I suggest you don't wear any warm underwear on Judgement Day,…

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

Well, I don’t know about Democrats wanting to destroy personal charities. I think many of the wealthy Democrats also contribute to charities for deduction purposes.

Why do I need to be encouraged by the government to give to a charity, anyway? Are you suggesting that the government influences your life in such a manner?

And again, if you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes? That’s your own affair. Why have the government involved at all?

BTW, Romney’s $77K write-off was for care and feeding of the horse, or at least that’s what was reported. Not sure how that could be considered depreciation of an asset.

AprilApple said...

Dear God,
So we can tie Romney to each and every bad thing that has ever happened in the name of Mormonism throughout history; But we cannot mention Reverend Wright and the fact that Obama, just recently, sat in his pews for 20 years listening to insane radical crazytown.
Got it.

36fsfiend said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AprilApple said...

36
Again, you are confusing hobby with business. You cannot write off something that isn't there. If you have NO tax liability, you cannot write something off against it and you will not receive a check from the government.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

"So odd it's nothing but Bonapartist propaganda"

It's interesting where folk knowledge comes from. I assume Bonapartism was anticlerical as at least in part derivative of the French Revolution. As an aside, Bonaparte was I think famous for liberating the Jews in French society which may be the origin for Jewish Leftism. Nevertheless as what I heard may have been determined by a French Catholic origin, apparently the Bonapartists and French Catholics did talk on subjects of mutual interest.

The Crack Emcee said...

AprilApple,

Dear God,
So we can tie Romney to each and every bad thing that has ever happened in the name of Mormonism throughout history; But we cannot mention Reverend Wright and the fact that Obama, just recently, sat in his pews for 20 years listening to insane radical crazy town.


Sure you can - who says you can't? Talk, woman,...

wyo sis said...

Crack
I've said I respect you and think you are saying/ doing exactly what you should do if you believe Mormons are as evil as you claim. If that is judgement then, yes, I've been judging you.

You said I should call myself Mrs Sandusky as if I were ignoring visible, evil that's was damaging innocent children. That is NOT judgement? But, it did get me to thinking that in one sense you're right. You cannot ignore what you think is evil. I say OK I accept that and I even applaud your sticking to your principles.

I don't think the Romneys or the Mormons are evil and your "proofs" don't convince me. I think I can judge evil. I don't see evil in people who behave the way Mormons do or believe the things Mormons believe.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

Romney had tax liability and he wrote-off $77K for a horse which I’m given to understand is his (or his wife’s) hobby. That helps keep money in his pocket by lowering his AGI.

BTW, for campaign contribution purposes, he listed his employment as self-employed author and Ann as a homemaker. Nothing about horses.

AprilApple said...

Crack,
I was reffering to the media black-out against the mention of anything pertaining to Reverend Wright and Obama.

Free speech is alive here, but dead in the press.

AprilApple said...

36 -

If they acted in accordance with the law, just like other rich democrats, what's your problem?
If you don't like the law, lobby to change it.

I'm sure the Romney's have multiple investments. So what?

BTW - Why did Obama pay less income tax that he could have? He took deductions and he paid much less than his tax bracket. Since he talks about shared sacrifice, why did he do that? Why would Obama take any deductions? But he did!
Obama could have paid more.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

I’m for cleaning up and streamlining the tax code by closing or eliminating these various loop holes, writes-off, subsidies and so forth.

If you want to engage in a hobby and that costs you money, that’s your affair.

As far as charities, why do you need the government to influence your decision to support a worthwhile cause with a deduction?

As far as lobbying to change the code, if only. I don’t have those deep pockets. I write my letters and make my calls to my reps. and hope for the best.

AprilApple said...

Again, a write off is not a subsity.

Horses can be big business. So what If the Romney's followed the law?

AprilApple said...

I've leaving now. Dinner at the hippy cafe beckons.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

Write-off or subsidy - it's all about money in your pocket.

Yes, horses can be big business but my understanding is this is Romney's (or Ann's) hobby.

Enjoy dinner.

chickelit said...

36fsfiend asked: As far as charities, why do you need the government to influence your decision to support a worthwhile cause with a deduction?

The easy answer is that charities received more and greater donations because of tax laws. You could try and repeal those laws fiend, but I'd wager that the "charities" would be your biggest opponent. Or we could simply confiscate wealth and redistributed it according to leftist wet dream fantasies.

36fsfiend said...

chickelit,

So in other words Big Bad government does have an influence on us because of our selfish motives.

Not sure what’s with this constant refrain about the left wanting to do away with charities. Do you think they don't enjoy the same benefits that those on the right enjoy when making donations?

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

Crack
I've said I respect you and think you are saying/ doing exactly what you should do if you believe Mormons are as evil as you claim. If that is judgement then, yes, I've been judging you.

You said that TODAY. You have not been so generous previously - again, you're letting yourself off the hook for previous behavior, just as you do the Mormons. Yet you, both, have thought of yourselves as "nice" as you do wrong.

I appreciate your change-of-heart, but your sense of ethics needs some work.



You said I should call myself Mrs Sandusky as if I were ignoring visible, evil that's was damaging innocent children. That is NOT judgement?

Yes, it is - I pass judgement as a member of this society engaged in it's ethics - just as it's passed on me. I expect it, and welcome it, demanding we do so fairly. I will NOT do as you have, and declare other's judgement doesn't apply to me because of my "beliefs" or faith. We are a society. I hope, one day, to reawaken to an ethical one.

But, it did get me to thinking that in one sense you're right. You cannot ignore what you think is evil. I say OK I accept that and I even applaud your sticking to your principles.

But you will not be swayed by evidence? Wow - thanks for all the clapping,…I guess. Is that with one hand or two?



I don't think the Romneys or the Mormons are evil and your "proofs" don't convince me. I think I can judge evil. I don't see evil in people who behave the way Mormons do or believe the things Mormons believe.

Wait - the Mormon "church" got the prime real estate in downtown Utah, to create a world-class park, and, instead, built their temple where they now forbid non-Mormons to enter and openly condemn others - but that's not evidence of evil?

Mitt Romney is engaged in the supplement fraud to the tune of millions of dollars - abetted by a crooked law written by his fellow Mormon, Orrin Hatch - and which has resulted in unnecessary deaths and a proverbial "war on science," but that's not evidence of evil?

The cult has attacked and even destroyed scholars for merely bringing up facts of history - just as I've been attacked here by you and much, much worse - but that's not evidence of evil?

The Mormons just announced the won't prosecute polygamy in Utah - the deal they made in order to get the state - but (considering there's kids involved in the practice) that's not evidence of evil? Breaking their word on this is "goodness"?

They ostracize members who leave the faith from their families, but that's not evidence of evil?

They deny well-established, documented history - about themselves and others - insisting the rest of us conform to their upside-down view rather than they deal in the reality we share, but that's not evidence of evil?

I can go on but, even stopping there, taken together you're going to tell me this is a group that's promoting honesty, a desire for goodness based in the general welfare, or anything else, other than evil - structured around their own sense of power and control over others?

If so, explain how - and please don't hand me that "they seem so nice" bullshit.

All cultists seem "nice." Really, really nice. It's a cover. The Mormons have a looooonnnnng history of lying, pedophilia, bloodshed, racism and extreme delusion. There's no way to deny it. It's all they know - a historical fact. Joseph Smith was a "con" man. Gaining your confidence is the core of his faith. The rest is, as we have seen, malleable.

And as you noted, Jerry Sandusky got away with it for decades,…

chickelit said...

Not sure what’s with this constant refrain about the left wanting to do away with charities. Do you think they don't enjoy the same benefits that those on the right enjoy when making donations?

I never heard that one, fiend. Sounds like a straw man. Can you link?

chickelit said...

"constant refrain" sounds like a badly structured pop song.

36fsfiend said...

chickelit,

Well, both you and AprilApple have indicated on this blog post that the left wants to do away with charities so the government can establish some type of socialist Utopia. And I've heard that trope elsewhere before.

wyo sis said...

I said I've studied the doctrines of the Mormon church and I believe them. All religions are practiced by people who fail to live up to their ideals. Yes, I concede willingly that individual people can be and often are evil. I don't thing Mormons are evil speaking of the collective.

If I said things that offend you I apologize. What more can I do? I'm not going to admit you are right about Mormons or about religion. I've said I think you are behaving appropriately if you believe it's evil.

There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing this discussion, or whatever it is. You, as an atheist won't be convinced by faith. I as a person of faith won't be convinced that a religion is evil because its members sometimes fall short. Real criminal evil is different than what you describe, and if you don't see that nothing I can say will change your mind.

For me religion offers opportunities to grow and to progress. I believe in redemption. I believe in God and in Jesus Christ. This won't change.

chickelit said...

Fiend wrote: Well, both you and AprilApple have indicated on this blog post that...

First: a couple commenters on blog don't make a "constant refrain" in the real scheme of things. Plus I was criticizing your stance on charitable deductions and not charities in general. I think liberals think charities and charitable deductions are fine. You're the the one with an issue against the latter.

You have a long-standing obsession with amplifying what you perceive hypocrisy is, fiend. That's why nobody likes you or listens to your arguments.

36fsfiend said...

chickelit,

As I stated, besides your and AprilApple’s comment on this blog post, I've heard that trope elsewhere before.

The left, as I understand, have heartburn with donations to supposed charities like the Mormon Church that turns around and uses that money for political agendas, like the $20 million they spent in California fighting Prop 8. That means others must take up the slack in contributing to organizations that actually do charity work with their money. Why should that be the case?

I’m not discussing hypocrisy per se on this post - just our goofy tax code. Why should someone get to write-off a loss from their “hobby”?

AprilApple said...

36 - you didn't answer my questions:
BTW - Why did Obama pay less income tax that he could have? He took deductions and he paid much less than his tax bracket. Since he talks about shared sacrifice, why did he do that? Why would Obama take any deductions? But he did!
Obama could have paid more.

Coketown said...

Does the phrase "hung like a horse" not even register with Jane Goodnight? That may explain her deep fascination with horses. It's not about horses; it's about men. And I'm with her 100% on that. I've got an Italian stallion of my own, if you get my meaning.

Dustin said...

Crack's point would make more sense during the primary.

Now that the primary is over, it's not like Romney's flaws have gone away, but he is now the best candidate remaining for President. Wish the GOP had picked someone better, and I think they would have in a saner Primary system, but at this point, either Romney or Obama will be president in a year, and I think Obama's a disaster and Romney is average at worst and could be much better than average.

As far as Crack's comments about the "Secret" temple, anyone can worship at a Mormon church. There is an additional place, the temple, for those who are really walking the walk under Mormon views (I don't agree with their views, but big whoop). It's not the scandal it's made out to be when people talk about the temple that is only for those who qualify to enter. It's just that they choose a poor word for it.

Horses are cool.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

Well, prior to your questions I asked the following questions:

If you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes?

Why do I need to be encouraged by the government to give to a charity, anyway? Are you suggesting that the government influences your life in such a manner?

And again, if you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes? That’s your own affair. Why have the government involved at all?

Now, to answer your question, Obama took deductions just as anyone would in accordance with the law. That doesn’t imply he’s against tax reform. Unlike let’s say Ron Paul who claims Social Security is unconstitutional but he still takes the benefits.

The Crack Emcee said...

wyo sis,

I said I've studied the doctrines of the Mormon church and I believe them.

And I've studied the history of the Mormon "church" - what they actually have done - and I do not. Don't "actions speak louder than words"?

All religions are practiced by people who fail to live up to their ideals.

Oh, sis, in the case of Joseph Smith - convict, con man, occultist, pedophile, polygamist, liar - that's such an understatement I don't even think it's a fair statement for even the most forgiving believer to make. I mean, we're talking about stretching the meaning of words to the point where the proverbial rubber band has no elastic left in it.

What is it about the word "fraud" that bothers you so much?

Yes, I concede willingly that individual people can be and often are evil. I don't thing Mormons are evil speaking of the collective.

Despite the *fact* the collective has done evil things - along with the individuals within it?



If I said things that offend you I apologize.

Don't - I never said that. I'm not the I'm-so-offended type. Disgust is my specialty, and you haven't even made the cut. Much appreciated, though.

What more can I do?

Deal with the facts. Duh.

I'm not going to admit you are right about Mormons or about religion.

Then you are a closed-minded bigot. Congratulations. Isn't religion great?

I've said I think you are behaving appropriately if you believe it's evil.

Well, that's a start.

There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing this discussion, or whatever it is. You, as an atheist won't be convinced by faith. I as a person of faith won't be convinced that a religion is evil because its members sometimes fall short. Real criminal evil is different than what you describe, and if you don't see that nothing I can say will change your mind.

Ahh, the running away cop-out. Whatever. I keep finding the rest of this statement remarkable:

People get involved in a religion, and are compelled to tell everybody about it's ways and wonders, but then don't have to follow it's tenets. Lucky.

Being an atheist is much, much harder. You get into ethics, and then have to live by them. Religious people HATE us for that. Even though hate goes against their religion. See how screwy it is?



For me religion offers opportunities to grow and to progress.

No - you just said it demands you don't change. ("I'm not going to admit you are right about Mormons or about religion.") That's one of the things I dislike about it:

Religious folks (in most cases) become nonsensical liars who are really difficult to talk to because A) it's nonsense that doesn't conform to reality, and B) they'll go against their own words in a heartbeat. (We must be good - except when we're not. That kind of thing.) It's pretty creepy, if you ask me. Jesus must have been a riot.

I believe in redemption. I believe in God and in Jesus Christ. This won't change.

I'm with you on redemption - but not without doing the work. God and Jesus Christ won't do it for you. Expecting them to is like hoping your parents will do your school assignment - not exactly a way to get smarter. God helps those who help themselves.

Ain't nothing changing about that, either,…

Q said...

If a woman has a lot of shoes, don't try to come between her and her shoes.


And vampires. Don't come between a girl and her vampire.

Q said...

the Mormon "church" got the prime real estate in downtown Utah, to create a world-class park, and, instead, built their temple where they now forbid non-Mormons to enter and openly condemn others - but that's not evidence of evil?



Well, no. Not everything you dislike rises to the level of "evil".

The Crack Emcee said...

Dustin,

Crack's point would make more sense during the primary.

Why? Nobody was listening during the primary either.

 It's been nothing but lies for months now.

Now that the primary is over, it's not like Romney's flaws have gone away, but he is now the best candidate remaining for President.

Yep - we've now got the guy we were told was "inevitable" from the beginning - and all I can say is Boy, this "We The People" thing is working out really, really well! [facepalm]

Wish the GOP had picked someone better, and I think they would have in a saner Primary system, but at this point, either Romney or Obama will be president in a year, and I think Obama's a disaster and Romney is average at worst and could be much better than average.

Ahh, but what he brings with him could be far worse than Obama. See, I know cults - how they think, what they "believe," what they have done - but nobody can predict what they'll do. That's the problem with illogical belief systems - they lead to illogical behavior. Like everyone telling fibs about Romney already. Think about that:

They've already reduced us to a nation of liars - the conservatives, even. As a fellow conservative, I'm so proud.

And that's just the start. This is "The Mormon Moment" - and don't you dare think they won't take it. They've already stopped arrests for polygamy in Utah - which they swore they'd never do as a condition of statehood. (Breaking your word to the nation you plan to lead is such an upstanding thing to do,...) What's next?

The singular focus on one aspect of this election - the economy! - is the dumbest move the Right has made in decades. They've given a historical enemy of the American people an opportunity to gain power over us. And I thought, before, we truly lived in a uniquely stupid time.

 It's about to get stupider.

As far as Crack's comments about the "Secret" temple, anyone can worship at a Mormon church.

I never said they couldn't, Straw man. In other words, you're trying to appear to prove me wrong by attacking something I never said. And I can now feel my I.Q. dropping by engaging with you. Four years of this is going to reduce me to a jello swirl.

There is an additional place, the temple, for those who are really walking the walk under Mormon views (I don't agree with their views, but big whoop). It's not the scandal it's made out to be when people talk about the temple that is only for those who qualify to enter. It's just that they choose a poor word for it.

Speak for yourself. They're not the government - Oops! Yes they are. Or will be. And you don't know shit about them, or what they do, and are now endorsing policies to further keep it that way.

You're a real Eintstein, you know that?

Horses are cool.

Yeah, but Ann Romney isn't, and any attempt to make her so is just horse shit.

wyo sis said...

OK Crack. Have a great life.

The Crack Emcee said...

Q,

the Mormon "church" got the prime real estate in downtown Utah, to create a world-class park, and, instead, built their temple where they now forbid non-Mormons to enter and openly condemn others - but that's not evidence of evil?

Well, no. Not everything you dislike rises to the level of "evil".

Oh - so that clear act of fraud and deception, a power grab for their own gain and control, to have a place to humiliate others, is actually a display of their good, honest, and humanitarian nature?

Why, thank you so much for that reframing of the issue, Q. You're both a saint and a scholar.

No. Actually, I take that back - you're a tool and an idiot. Here, I'll make you a deal:

You sell me a pellet gun that we've agreed I'll only use to shoot squirrels. But - when I start using it to shoot your kid in the ankles as he walks to school - I want you to spread the word that I'm a man of integrity, O.K.?

Yessiree, you tell 'em:

"The Crack Emcee is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."

If you don't, I'll shoot you in the face,...

The Crack Emcee said...

Speak of The Devil:

Study Finds People Who Believe In Heaven Commit More Crimes

Let us prey,...

AllieOop said...

Don't ever come between a girl and her chocolate either. Good expensive dark delectable chocolate.

AprilApple said...

36-
Hobby -that's your word. That's MSNBCs word. Sillyness.
Ann Romney's olympic horse or horses must be more than a hobby. You don't think horses are big business? Anyone running any business anywhere can use tax laws to their advantage. You seem overly concerned, in a nation filled with 310 million people, that Ann Romney must be abusing the system. She must! oh why! Ann Romney is using the tax code to her advantage (you insist it's a hobby) when I doubt you understand that it's a business.


LOL! It’s a new revelation to you that the government engages in behavior economics? Please, try starting a business. Try cutting through all the red tape. The government works in numerous ways to control us. Control. Out of all that, you are most bothered by the encouragement of charitable giving? Wow.
You want to end charitable giving deductions? Fine. That's your opinion. You are not required to give to charity, you don’t have to write it off your taxes either. Either does OBAMA or any hypocritical democrat.
I know you would prefer everyone's last dollar pour into government coffers and less and less money to charity, because you are of the left . That is how lefties think. Big government above all else.

Unlike what democrats want with government run health care, there is ZERO coercion going on. So why all the obsession over the Romney businesses? It’s clearly OK for democrats to be rich and successful and take tax deductions. I guess you just can't stand the idea of anyone on the right doing the same thing.

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ April

Don't argue with morons. It is a waste of your time and taxes their brains.

36fsfiend said...

Dust Bunny Queen,

Oh, you are so erudite.

Shanna said...

Seriously DBQ. I can't believe ya'll spent all day trying to explain the concept that:

Hobby=fun thing you do in your spare time
Hobby that makes money=business
Business expenses=not taxable
Business income = taxable

More or less. If 36 would just browse the IRS site for about 10 minutes they might figure it out.

Shanna said...

Also, on topic...horses are great. I seem to recall having a poster of horses as a kid, but no special interest in them, apart from occasionally riding my uncle's.

I think trying to find some deep meaning in it all is silly. Horses are marvelous animals that will run fast and jump over stuff while letting us come along for the ride.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

If Ann Romney is in the show horse business, what’s with all this nonsense about being a stay-at-home mom and homemaker as she indicated on her most recent campaign contribution disclosure?

Still waiting for an answer to the question if you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes?

As far as donations to charities, so you are OK with the Big Bad government influencing your decisions as to who and how much to give, eh? What else should the Big Bad government do for you?

36fsfiend said...

Shanna,

If something is a "hobby" why should it be treated as a "business". I'm not referring to the existing tax code. I speaking hypothetically.

AprilApple said...

Still waiting for an answer to the question if you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes?

Already answered it many times.

As far as donations to charities, so you are OK with the Big Bad government influencing your decisions as to who and how much to give, eh? What else should the Big Bad government do for you?


You didn't read my post, did you.
You're embarrassing yourself.

36fsfiend said...

AprilApple,

No, you haven't answered it.

And yes, I did read your post. A lot of nonsense, to wit:

"I know you would prefer everyone's last dollar pour into government coffers and less and less money to charity, because you are of the left . That is how lefties think. Big government above all else."

Not even close.

BTW, why is Ann Romney not declaring that she's in the show horse business? That's the second time I'ved asked that one.

JAL said...

Well I was going to comment earlier today and but ended up working outside on the pasture. Had to drag it, so then tomorrow I can switch to my bushhog and cut the clover in the 20,000 sf grass ring that I, a miserable 99%er on SS, and my helpful husband, put in with $100 of used fencing and the cost of the paint and screws.

So much for the Spielbergs (and the Springsteens) and the Romneys and the la-di-da of the "1 percenters."

All this criticism about the Romney's horses is so much horse shit. And I know horse shit.

You love horses? You find a way to ride or even own them even if you haven't got $77,000 for one. Ann Romney apparently is a very good dressage rider, (Grand Prix level I saw somewhere) which is very impressive feat.

I am not as good a rider. And I have lower aspirations -- ride Novice level Eventing before I die (or as we joke, die doing it). On my $200 rescue horse who is talented and gorgeous. (The highest level Eventing is an Olympic sport. And it includes a dressage test!)

In my world, the Romneys can spend their money any which way they please as long as it isn't immoral or illegal.

I saw some place that previously the Romneys bought a $100,000 horse which they resold for $125,000. (So I guess they are horse traders!)

Horses used at the level their Olympic horse are "businesses." The fact that Ann Romney rides as a "hobby" does not change that.

As for the deliberately dense 36-Fiend person -- You have never had business of your own, have you? Do you itemize? Or what if your hobby actually did produce income? Surprise! The IRS cares! If one actually has a "hobby" that makes money, just as Jake informed you, the IRS has specific rules which apply. There are allowed deductions.

The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year — at least two of the last seven years for activities that consist primarily of breeding, showing, training or racing horses.

So either way (business, farm, or hobby) I trust the Romney's tax attorney has it under control. Just like Barack Obama's.

Since 36 thinks it's fine for Obama to take deducations because it is legal -- how about extending the same reasonable logic and courtesy to the Romneys.

JAL said...

And the Goodnight chick and her feminism mush? Yeech.

Horse people are crazy. Did I mention that above? ;-)

Also at the highest levels of equine competition -- men and women compete together. So after all is said and done that is cool.

And yes -- horses are used all over the US for therapeutic riding as well as in other therapy settings.

I am sure Ann Romney will not nanny us to death, whatever she takes as a cause.

36fsfiend said...

JAL,

Your comment that the Romneys can spend their money any which way they please as long as it isn't immoral or illegal - not arguing that point at all. Frankly, I don’t care how they spend their money.

But, why the tax breaks for this hobby? Not what’s in the tax code. Hypothetically, why do we want the government influencing what we choose for hobbies?

Saint Croix said...

I don't know how to link properly

AprilApple,

Here you go.

wyo sis said...

Saint Croix
Thank you for the site. I haven't known how to link properly either.

wyo sis said...

I have a friend who is in the 1% (if that's even a thing.) Her husband is very smart about money and he makes everything they do a business expense. It's all legal and the tax code allows it. It's not even questionable morally. It's the way people with money keep as much of it as possible instead of giving it to the government. This isn't immoral. It's smart. They give generously to charity and fund several scholarships.

They choose where their extra money goes, instead of trusting the government. A great old American concept.

Saint Croix said...

wyo sis, you are very welcome!

36fsfiend said...

wyo sis,

You state in the first paragraph:

“It's all legal and the tax code allows it.”

And in the next paragraph, you state:

“They choose where their extra money goes, instead of trusting the government."

So your friend is OK with the government’s tax code but he/she doesn’t trust the government. That’s remarkable. How do they rationalize that cognitive dissonance?

And I bet they claim they never take anything from the government.

AllieOop said...

Freedom from government intervention, except when it suits me. Hallelujah!

wyo sis said...

There's no cognitive dissonance about it. They obey the law. They don't have to like it or give extra. They're not necessarily OK with the tax code, but they obey it, work to change it and they keep as much of their own money as possible. Just. Like. Everyone. Else.

wyo sis said...

Allie
Government has a function. Choosing for me where my money goes is not one of them.
Government is interfering when it redistributes wealth. It's the same as stealing.
I don't think government interference suits most people. If it suits you you are certainly living in the right time and place.
You and 36 are willfully distorting what I said.

36fsfiend said...

wyo sis,

There’s cognitive dissonance because you state your friends are OK with using the government tax code for tax breaks that save them money and yet at the same time they don’t trust the government to make decisions about money. The government is making a decision about money in providing your friends tax breaks.

You state government choosing for you where your money goes is not one of its functions. How about the Defense Department? Are you OK with how the government is using your money for defense?

wyo sis said...

Defense is a legitimate function of government.

36fsfiend said...

wyo sis,

So I take it you are OK with how the government is using your money for defense.

How about the National Weather Service - tornado warnings and hurricane warnings? Are you OK with how the government spends your money on providing the nation with those services?

wyo sis said...

I'm not OK with many things the government does. That doesn't mean I take the law into my own hands. I can completely mistrust the government and still obey it's laws the ones that benefit me as well as the ones that don't. The Constitution outlines the legitimate functions of government. The tax code is written to finance those legitimate functions. I get to help choose what gets priority by how I vote. I get to take advantage of tax breaks. Deal with it.

36fsfiend said...

wyo sis,

I don’t have any issue to deal with because I accept that I’m responsible to pay taxes as a citizen and I appreciate that I enjoy many benefits because of those taxes.

I don’t make the unenlightened claim that I never take or receive anything from the government. Tax breaks are a benefit provided by the government. That’s why they are called “breaks” - the government is letting you keep some money that they are entitled to by the tax law.

wyo sis said...

The ignorance is too deep.

36fsfiend said...

wyo sis,

"The ignorance is too deep."

On your side?

Kirk Parker said...

36,

"If you want to engage in a hobby that causes you to experience a loss, why should you get to write that loss off for tax purposes?"

You don't.

Rusty said...

36fsfiend said...
Shanna,

If something is a "hobby" why should it be treated as a "business". I'm not referring to the existing tax code. I speaking hypothetically.


Lucky is the person that can profit fron theirr hobby and traet it like a business.


For example lets take fly fishing. Fly fishing and tying the flies for fly fishing is my hobby. I'm very good at tying flies. So much so that my flies are in big demand by other fly fishermen-er persons.
I devote a whole section of my basement to just tying flies and selling them all over the world. For tax purposes I create a seperate bank acount for my profits. I also create a spreadsheet to keep track of all my expenses incurred in tying my flies.
On tax day I sit down with a tax preparer and discus which expenses I can legitimately deduct in my fly tying business.
As an example fish hooks. since i bought retail an already paid taxes on them, over and above the special tax on all hunting and fishing equipment and supplies, I'm allowed to deduct that amount from my taxable income.
not very difficult to grasp at all, is it?

But, why the tax breaks for this hobby? Not what’s in the tax code. Hypothetically, why do we want the government influencing what we choose for hobbies?

It doesn't. it influences what we can treat as a business. I thught I made that clear.




As far as charities, why do you need the government to influence your decision to support a worthwhile cause with a deduction?


Quite simple really. The more of my income I pay in taxes, the less I have to donate to my favorit charities.


36fsfiend said...
wyo sis,

So I take it you are OK with how the government is using your money for defense.

How about the National Weather Service - tornado warnings and hurricane warnings? Are you OK with how the government spends your money on providing the nation with those services?


If you've evder read our constitution you's see that there are actually very few things our government is empowered to do, by law. IE those things that are a violation of our laws if the government does not do these things.
One of those things is to defend us. You may argue about degree, but not substance. Another is to protect us from ourselves in that we have courts and police to uphold and judge the law. Another is to promote the general, or greater public welfare. This also has to deal with keeping us safe as a people-not specific people or groups. So the national weather service would fall into one of those categories.
Taxation is a police power of the state. that is to say that taxes are collected at the point of a gun or in our case the courts. No one wants to pay taxes. We are forced to.
The happiest societies are those that are taxed the least.

AprilApple said...

The left are OK with theft and redistribution, but if you give to charity, why, that's crazy insane government intervention. The government must haved forced you to give to chairty. Amazing. Make it stop!

BuddyPC said...

"Obama!" (say in that "Frau Blucher" manner from "Young Frankenstein")
http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/12/01/obama-lifts-ban-on-horse-slaughter/60019/

Shanna said...

If something is a "hobby" why should it be treated as a "business".

Because when it makes money it becomes a business that you enjoy, not just a hobby. This has been explained.

AprilApple said...

It is illegal to be a housewife and have a side business with horses, unless you're a democrat. Then it's fine.

I'm all but certain Ann Romney will be indicted any minute now. Guards, seize her!

How dare she operate within the confines of the US tax code. Obama took deductions to lower his tax liability and that is wonderful and heroic. But if anyone on the right does such a thing, it's despicable.
We can count on the joke network to dig deep into this very important issue.
Ann Romney is taking tax deductions while Warren Buffet and many wealthy celebrities owe millions in back taxes. Ann Romney is a housewife with MS and she and her family have a side business with horses. That is just wrong.

America is over!

John Lynch said...

Men and cars. That's the other "thing."

Livermoron said...

Not sure why anyone responds to 36fsfiend... he is either very dumb or so deep in his partisanship that he refuses to even understand simple concepts.
Essentially, he is trying to make a case for his (and the Left's) moral superiority because they would never take tax deductions for a hobby that becomes a business.
(chuckle)
Of course, given the Left's record, it is not surprising that they are against any business creation in the private sector.

Jason said...

Heh. I remember when the Clintons took a tax deduction for donating underwear.

Ernst Stavro Blofeld said...

Most insightful song about horse chicks, ever, by Jonathon Richman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysaBHTwazjk

yashu said...

Ernst Stavro Blofeld, love it! (As I love most everything by Jonathan Richman).

Livermoron said...

Funny how Mrs. Romney turns her interest into a business and her husband, accepting compensation neither as governor or Olymics organizer, turned his interests into hobbies.

Who will be the first to claim he did so as to avoid paying taxes??

Syl said...

I too as a teenager was wild about horses. That's all I drew, mostly all I read about, mostly all I collected. Still love them, have rarely ridden, was actually thrown from a bucking horse once.

But I always felt that the horse symbolized freedom, running wildly anywhere you want. Pure Liberty.

When I got my driver's license my obsession started to fade.

Horses are to girls what cars are to boys and a driver's license is a great equalizer.

Rusty said...

Not sure why anyone responds to 36fsfiend...

I just do it to see how stupid he can be. Reason is like magic to his tribe.

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