May 17, 2012

A close friend of the suicide wife of RFK Jr. says: "She had cause. She was used up and tossed away by Bobby. That was awful."

"She was deeply troubled, abusing alcohol and prescription meds."
"She had grown up with the Kennedy family, having been Kerry’s best friend since they were teenagers,” the friend said.

The marriage broke down amid reports of her addiction and rumors of his involvement with other women.
“She knew Bobby her whole life, and now he rejected her. Tragic.”
They found her body hanging in the barn. She left a note.

IN THE COMMENTS: Jay takes up the theme Another Death in the Kennedy War on Women.

168 comments:

Jay said...


She was used up and tossed away by Bobby


How can this be?!

The Democrats are the party of women and feminism, dammit!

Patrick said...

Couldn't they come up with a better term to describe the woman? "Suicide Wife?" Come on.

Jay said...

They found her body hanging in the barn.

Stop speaking as if this is some sort of tragedy!

The Kennedy's legislative record when it comes to women is 2nd to none!!!

Ann Althouse said...

"Couldn't they come up with a better term to describe the woman? "Suicide Wife?" Come on."

"They" is me.

The stuff not in quote marks and not blocked and indented is written by me.

Don't like my phrase? My second choice is: the self-murdered wife.

Ann Althouse said...

I agree with Jay that "tragedy" is the wrong word.

EDH said...

The Kennedy "War on Women" continues.

Asking the important questions:

How many women have the Kennedys killed over the years?

Not sure that list is complete, and does not include those paralyzed or otherwise damaged by them. Howie Carr will likely update the list in his next column.

madAsHell said...

I believe that suicide for a 52 year old woman is unusual. Especially, if she had children. The addiction must have interfered with her ability to be a mother.

James said...

Self-murdered? Why not self-killed? Are you expressing disapproval of suicide? Shouldn't end-of-life decisions be up to the individual? Kind of a funny position for a pro-choice feminist to take.

She really just expressed her right to choose, self-determining her own destiny. Isn't that at least a plausible reading?

yashu said...

This family. The awful events that beset and are perpetrated by members of this family, generation after generation, make it like a family of ancient Greek mythology and tragedy, like the House of Atreus, contaminated with miasma.

Went to look up House of Atreus on Wikipedia, and find that Maureen Dowd has made this comparison before me. Kudos to MoDo, it's an apt analogy.

themightypuck said...

Speaking of correlations. Addiction and suicide >> divorce and suicide > control.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Seriously, wtf is with that family?

Tank said...

1. How do you use up your wife?

2. @James - Feminists are mostly just pro choice about you know what. Otherwise, not so much.

AllenS said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
Seriously, wtf is with that family?

Why change? The citizens keep voting for these people and the media and voters treat them like royalty.

Lincolntf said...

All women should steer clear of that family. Addicts and adulterers from top to bottom.

pm317 said...

It is not the Kennedy curse, it is the Kennedy men.

Curious George said...

Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.

Pogo said...

Lotsa pathology in that clan, both the core group and those they marry. Even the cousins are affected (e.g. Michael Skakel)

The Tolstoyan unhappy family.

Consider how their politics and policies were shaped by such pervasive dysfunction.

pm317 said...

Camelot, where men are stupid and foolhardy and women are weak and infirm.

David said...

Four kids. None of them adults yet.

Ken said...

A woman kills herself and it's a tragedy, but a man kills himself and no one cares. In fact, Wikipedia removes the article because it's not news when women abuse men that results in suicide.

Besides, Bobby is a Kennedy. The death of a woman in his life is worth it.

Why the hell haven't the Kennedy's been run out of politics? These people regularly highlight what morality isn't. And the idiots all over the media see them as tragic, victims of cirucmstance, rather than what it is: failure as people.

Astro said...

"The suicide wife" makes it sound like he had other wives: the trophy wife, the activist wife, and oh yes, the suicide wife. Why not just 'the wife'? Anyone not aware of the suicide will quickly find out.

/Well, just another example that he's a douchebag.

Patrick said...

The heading is in quotation marks, so I thought it was a quote. It doesn't matter, I don't like the phrase. Your blog though.

Pogo said...

Suicide Commandos: "She"

Michael Haz said...

Four kids. None of them adults yet.

That is the real tragedy here; the damage done to their children. That's the enduring Kennedy legacy.

rehajm said...

All women should steer clear of that family.

You'd think. Yet seemingly rational women are drawn like mosquitos to a bug zapper. Male Kennedy clan member walks into the room. Panties fly off. It's surreal.

Some women can't rest a bad boy?

Robert said...

Too bad her hair wasn't a lighter color. INXS would have come in useful. Maybe Chip could....

Patrick said...

OK, that's weird. I went back to the front page, now I don't see the quotes. But when I came in here to fall on my sword, the quotes are back. In fact, with the two quotes at the end closing both.

I'm going to go lengthen my life and have another cup of coffee.

Bob Ellison said...

madAsHell wrote "I believe that suicide for a 52 year old woman is unusual."

I was surprised to learn recently that suicide rates tend to
rise with age. Presumably the popular focus on teenage suicide keeps us ignorant of this.

pm317 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
virgil xenophon said...

@POGO/

Well, the Kennedy treatment of women is all of a piece with the lefts overriding motif, i.e., rank hypocrisy regarding all things. In the case of women, holding themselves out in the civic arena of public policy as the "progressive" champions of women in all aspects of their professional and personal lives even as they abuse them on a personal level.

pm317 said...

I heard this on the radio yesterday afternoon and woke up singing it, and since been playing it on youtube. Somehow seems appropriate for this thread.
Yes, Owner of the lonely heart

Erika said...

I understand that her marriage was a disaster, but it's a very retro concept to me that being married to a cad can drive a woman to suicide. There isn't more to life than whether your husband treats you well or not? She didn't commit suicide because she was married to a jerk; she committed suicide because she was mentally ill. An unhappy but rational and emotionally functional person does not hang herself in the barn, particularly a mother of four children whom she loves "without reservation."

Canuck said...

"I agree with Jay that "tragedy" is the wrong word."

Depends. If she did it because she was "rejected" or addiction not caused by mental illness, then her actions were pathetic.

Pathos, the opposite of the Greek concept of Tragedy.

But if she did it because of madness? Mental illness? That's the definition of the Greek concept of tragedy. Euripides. The Bacchae.

If she was insane she lacked reason and control. Tragedy.

If she was sane, pathos.

MadisonMan said...

The last thing I'd do, if my friend had killed herself/himself, would be an interview with the press.

lemondog said...

Is jr not a polluter? As an environmental advocate he seems not particularly scrupulous about creating and leaving behind a mess affecting numerous children and 2 wives.

Any chance soon the 'War On Women' rhetoric will cease?

Jay Retread said...

Ann, this is one of your more ugly posts. What has blogging done to your sense of personal decency? The next time you do one of your posts about being outraged over the treatment of Sarah Palin, I hope you remember this post and know that you are part of the problem.

Jay said...

rehajm said...
Some women can't rest a bad boy?


Nope. Science:

Women choose bad boys because their hormones make them, new research suggests. When ovulating a woman's hormones influence who she sees as good potential fathers, and they specifically pick sexier men over obviously more dependable men.

Original Mike said...

I have never liked RFK, Jr politics (he's a radical "environmentalist"). Not surprised to learn he's a prick.

Mitchell said...

It should be presumed that the cause of any given suicide is irremediable loneliness.

DADvocate said...

A Kennedy involved with another woman? Say it ain't so!!

Ann Althouse said...

"Self-murdered? Why not self-killed? Are you expressing disapproval of suicide? Shouldn't end-of-life decisions be up to the individual? Kind of a funny position for a pro-choice feminist to take."

If the killing is intentional, it's murder. Self-killed includes accidents. I'm being specific.

People need to know when they kill themselves intentionally, they are committing murder. They are also executing the murderer, so maybe you think it's a complete package of justice, but I say it is immoral to kill a human being, and the wrong is not corrected by executing the murderer. It is a wrong and it should be understood and resisted.

I don't think it's the least bit "funny," and I happen to believe that I am helping prevent suicide by saying this clearly and openly.

The notion that no one else is hurt is false. This woman had children. It is a weak and hostile action and it hurts the people who care about them the most in a way that affects them for the rest of their lives. They can never do anything anymore to reach out to you, to ask you why, and you know you are doing this to them.

I don't like abortion either. I think it is murder, and I like to say that clearly and openly. I try to influence people to resist committing that murder. But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy. There are may bad, evil, and immoral things people do that we may not want the state to use its power to control.

For example, if someone attempts suicide, I wouldn't want the state to imprison them for 20 years, which I would support as a punishment for someone who attempted to murder another person.

But I will call it murder. It's all murder, whether it's a child inside your body or yourself. It's murder and you should face up to what you are really doing.

I support clear thinking, clear language, and personal responsibility.

JAL said...

Sad. Completely sad.

It seems alcohol, prescription meds, probably some form of mental illnes (depression, of course) ... but for a woman to hang herself.

That struck me. What a truly awful way to kill yourself. It's not like the hangings on movies where one's neck is broken. It takes some conscious time.

It it quite clear the Kennedy men certainly don't have a grasp of what makes a good marriage work. (and seriously -- how have they bought off the RC Church through all this?) Thanks Joe and Rose, for all you have done.

Back to Mary Kennedy and her kids. I hope the kids (11 to ~18 yo) move to Nebraska and find some normal people to hang out with and marry. Send a Christmas card back to the family if they have to.

What a sad, sad thing.

John said...

I read Robert Caro's 4th volume of his LBJ bio recently. (Excellent and I recommend all 4 vols)

Much of it was about Saint Jack and Saint Bobby. Caro was almost able to do something I never thought would be possible.

He almost made LBJ seem like a sympathetic character by comparison.

As someone said, the entire Kennedy clan, especially the men but the women are not immune, define sleaze and immorality.

Isn't it time to give that whole pack a good leaving alone? Disgusting bunch of human beings.

John Henry

rhhardin said...

Too much coffee.

Ken said...

Ann,

If the killing is intentional, it's murder.

Intentional killing = murder? Since when? Are all out troops in combat murderers or potential murderers? How about Sarah Dawn McKinley?

There is a difference between killing and murder. Since you are a lawyer, I would expect you to know that. Why don't you know that?

buster said...

Ann Althouse said:

"the self-murdered wife"

I share your disdain for euphemisms in matters of morality. Still, to call suicide "self-murder" seems cold and insensitive to moral considerations.

The argument for calling suicide self-murder is that murder is the intentional killing of another, and suicides by definition intend to kill themselves.

But the law of murder includes several excuses, such as insanity and duress. In other words, the crime of murder assumes that the murderer is fully responsible for his actions. It seems likely to me that most suicides are not really responsible because they are suffering from severe depression or panic or despair. Otherwise why kill yourself? To ignore this (to me) obvious fact is morally obtuse.

Ken said...

Ann,

I try to influence people to resist committing that murder. But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy.

So murder should totally be legal when it involves the most helpless? Seriously, what's wrong with you? I'm against most state power, but the most legitimate is the stopping of and punishing for murder.

Ken said...

Ann,

The notion that no one else is hurt is false. This woman had children.

Did you ever think that she killed herself for her children? Did it ever occur to you that she was thinking of them and had their best interests at heart? The reality is that her kids may very well be better off with her dead. To suggest that this is unqualifiedly false is clearly false.

Ann Althouse said...

"There is a difference between killing and murder. Since you are a lawyer, I would expect you to know that. Why don't you know that?"

Statutes define what will be a prosecutable crime. I am speaking in moral terms. Not everything immoral is made into a crime.

Obviously, the term murder also entails that it not be justified, but pacifists might say that a soldier killing someone in war is committing murder. It's an expression of a moral opinion, and I'm using the word "murder" with respect to abortion and suicide.

My moral argument is not based on dictionary definitions or statutorily defined crimes, and I'm using the word based on its expressive effect in conveying the idea that I most definitely stand behind.

Your effort to argue with me by saying I'm not a good lawyer is missing my point.

Please address the argument on the level I'm using, which is philosophical.

Ann Althouse said...

"Did you ever think that she killed herself for her children? Did it ever occur to you that she was thinking of them and had their best interests at heart? The reality is that her kids may very well be better off with her dead. To suggest that this is unqualifiedly false is clearly false."

She might have been thinking very badly and imagining that she was behaving unselfishly and for the good.

A murderer of another person might have some ideas like that too.

I'm sure plenty of suicides fall into the slough of thinking everyone else will be better off. I'm sure others ideate about how everyone else will be punished and will agonize and suffer forever.

So what? It is murder. I want people to know that.

Message: Don't kill yourself.

The notion that you're helping people by removing your woeful self from the word is distorted and needs to be overcome.

Bob Ellison said...

I'm with Ken. You're abusing the word, Professor. "Murder" implies unjust killing, not just killing. Else why have the word at all? Just saying "it's philosophical" is no defense.

Bob Ellison said...

Well, I guess you're saying "if the killing is intentional, it's murder" in the context of the suicide. That makes sense. Never mind; my bad. Not with Ken anymore. Call me maybe!

Kit said...

I respectfully disagree, this is a tragedy. The insanity of addiction takes another.

But for the grace of God go I.

Ken said...

Ann,

My moral argument is not based on dictionary definitions

This is sketchy at best. Why use words at all if they can mean whatever you want them to mean? This is a Queen of Hearts attitude and while not as immoral as many things, is immoral nonetheless. It is the deliberate use of a word or words with the explicit intent to mislead or deceive. In your case, to get people to believe what you want them to believe, by using a word in such a way that all recognize as immoral and applying to situations which can easily be seen to be moral and the correct course of action.

It's not even the logical fallacy of equivocation, since you are changing the meaning, not using a different or obscure meaning. It's simple deception.

Ken said...

Ann,

Your effort to argue with me by saying I'm not a good lawyer

I'm not arguing this at all. In my experience you are a solid example of what is considered a "good lawyer": someone who abuses language to win an argument, rather than deal with, you know, actual definitions of words.

Your subterfuge is a clear example of why people hate lawyers and the profession of law. The entire occupation is set up so that deception is necessary to "win" whatever the hell that means to a lawyer.

Patrick said...

I agree with you that not all evil should be prosecuted by the State. I'm curious as to how you make the distinction between what evil should be prosecuted and what evil should remain legal? Is there some grand principle?

Joe said...

Suicide is not a rational act. It is not a spur of the moment thing, as often portrayed by the media (not just in the news, but also in books, plays and movies.) It requires a deep hopelessness.

"Didn't she think of..." is probably what kept her alive for so long, but her demons, so to speak, likely became overwhelming.

Her addictions and self-destructive lifestyle strongly suggest she was wrestling with a dark side of herself for most of her life. Her divorce no doubt made things worse, but it was still likely a mitigating factor, not a causative one.

Ken said...

Ann,

Message: Don't kill yourself.

The notion that you're helping people by removing your woeful self from the word is distorted and needs to be overcome.


For the most part, I agree, but not totally (message to anyone associated with Al Qaeda or the Taliban: kill yourself, you'll make the world a better place). And see there, you made a solid argument without resorting to changing the definition of any word.

pm317 said...

I don't agree with your view of suicide (or abortion). People should have the choice to let go without the stigma attached to suicide. Hopefully it is not done out of spite and punishment, crying for attention and loneliness, or being driven to it by other humans but only of your own individual choice.

Similar for the choice of abortion well before viability -- it is the woman who will decide to bring that life into this world or not. It is the full idealistic extent of the meaning of the phrase individual liberty and over the most important decision of ones life: life and death, and done with a sound mind that there is no harm to society at large.

Ann Althouse said...

""The suicide wife" makes it sound like he had other wives: the trophy wife, the activist wife, and oh yes, the suicide wife. Why not just 'the wife'? Anyone not aware of the suicide will quickly find out."

So when a man refers to his "beautiful wife," you feel like saying "And what about your ugly wife?"

Ken said...

Joe,

Suicide is not a rational act.

Are you sure? I'm not. Of course, I think many instances of suicide are irrational acts, but many people have measured and weighed their lives and come to the very rational conclusion that it is better (for them or someone else) if they were dead.

Quayle said...

Guys like RFK Jr. were pegged by Nick Hornby and the Weitz brothers in "About a Boy"

Adapting from the screen play:

"The thing is, a person's life is like a TV show.

"I was the star of The Bobby Kennedy Jr. Show.

"And The Bobby Kennedy Jr. Show wasn't an ensemble drama.

"Guests came and went, but I was the regular.

"It came down to me, and me alone.

"If Mary couldn't manage her own show...

"...if her ratings were falling, it was sad, but that was her problem.

Colibri Noctis said...

Well, geez... talk about missing the point! You're beating Ann up for a term she didn't use. She used the term "suicide wife." I agree that's a strange turn of phrase. But she specifically used that instead of "self-murdered" to describe this woman.

I also think "self-murdered" is imprecise, because there's only so much culpability you can assign to those who are truly mentally ill. But it's good enough for her purposes here, in this case.

edutcher said...

Having seen Bobby Jr on Cavuto occasionally, I can only sympathize with his late ex.

Jay Retread said...

Ann, this is one of your more ugly posts. What has blogging done to your sense of personal decency? The next time you do one of your posts about being outraged over the treatment of Sarah Palin, I hope you remember this post and know that you are part of the problem.

God, these people need new writers.

Ann reiterated the facts; the quotes are what Retread doesn't like.

Let's see him object to the quotes next time somebody slimes the Palin family.

Bob Ellison said...

Ken, The Netherlands has put into practice the morality you imply. I suspect that this legal framework is open to abuse.

The general commandment that thou shall not kill thyself is a healthy one. It implies individual responsibility to resist the act and the responsibility of society to try to prevent it.

pm317 said...

Ken said...

Joe,

Suicide is not a rational act.

Are you sure? I'm not. Of course, I think many instances of suicide are irrational acts, but many people have measured and weighed their lives and come to the very rational conclusion that it is better (for them or someone else) if they were dead.
-----------------

Agree with Ken. Choice over what to do with ones life especially if it is rational (and no societal harm), should never be taken away from an individual.

Joe said...

To be clear; with some people divorce may push them over the edge. With others, it may be what saves them. In this case and admittedly going on scant evidence, it appears that you have two addictive personalities dealing with each other. To cope, one has affairs, the other drinks and pops pills (though I strongly suspect both had affairs and drank heavily.)

So what was the tipping point in this case. We don't know. Had Mary survived, she probably wouldn't be able to explain it either.

Scott M said...

Choice over what to do with ones life especially if it is rational (and no societal harm), should never be taken away from an individual.

Even if that individual is The Violinist?

36fsfiend said...

"But I will call it murder. It's all murder, whether it's a child inside your body or yourself. It's murder and you should face up to what you are really doing. "

And all the innocent lives taken in Iraq, that was murder too?

pm317 said...

Scott M said...
-------------------
Now I have to see the movie, :(

DADvocate said...

I must say I agree completely with Ann's position on suicide, murder and abortion.

It's curious that Mary Kennedy hanged herself. That's not a method of suicide often chosen by women. Pills and wrist cutting are much more preferred. You'd think, her being an addict, that she would have used pills.

JAL said...

So when a man refers to his "beautiful wife," you feel like saying "And what about your ugly wife?"

I believe you have ignored the use of the definite article, which, in this case certainly, makes for a different argument (and meaning).

Scott M said...

She looked in the family catalog for other options, but the only other option available was Sinking Car and she didn't want to be cliche.

Joe said...

I will amend my remark to say that suicide is rarely a rational act. In the case of someone with chronic pain (been there) or facing certain, especially painful, death, it may be rational, but those are extreme circumstances. Moreover, the vast majority of people in those situations don't kill themselves, though they may try something very extreme that is almost as certain (in WWI pilots often jumped from burning planes rather than shoot themselves with a service revolver.)

(I've long been puzzled of why, when you see old movie footage of soldiers lining up prisoners and shooting them one by one, the prisoners last in line don't run or struggle. This has puzzled a lot of people. One explanation is that we become so terrified that we freeze and are unable to make any decisions, rational or not. This is one place where evolutionary psychology may have an answer; when facing a wild beast, freezing up/playing dead may be the best chance for survival.)

traditionalguy said...

One more attractive woman that could not out run the demons of rejection and depression that enforce the Kennedy Curse.

She gave up.

The story was that Marilyn Monroe also committed suicide because she gave up.

It ma kes you appreciate Jacqueline Bouvier who never gave up.

AllieOop said...

Ann, thank you for being so honest and so clear! I couldn't agree with you more. I'm saving this quote.

Ann Althouse said,
"I don't like abortion either. I think it is murder, and I like to say that clearly and openly. I try to influence people to resist committing that murder. But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy. There are may bad, evil, and immoral things people do that we may not want the state to use its power to control.

I support clear thinking, clear language, and personal responsibility."

Ralph L said...

Bob, suicide rates rise for men with age because of declining levels of testosterone and exercise, which releases endorphins. Also ill (physical) health contributes.

The notion that you're helping people by removing your woeful self from the word is distorted and needs to be overcome
You've never met my step-mother. Some people are poisonous.

JAL said...

Not to switch the direction(s) of the comments, but it seems like abortion is a human rights issue in which the weaker person is victimized for the benefit of the stronger, richer, privileged, responsible person.

Something liberals could certainly take up as a cause.

JAL said...

A friend's husband recently shot himself.

He was seriously in great emotional pain, sleep deprived for months, PTSD disabled (Vietnam).

He did it to end his pain.

Yesterday worked with a small group who had a fellow employee / friend kill himself. Completely unexpected. Totally stunned and bewildered them all.

We are not mind readers.

To know another's heart is rare.

edutcher said...

36fsfiend said...

But I will call it murder. It's all murder, whether it's a child inside your body or yourself. It's murder and you should face up to what you are really doing.

And all the innocent lives taken in Iraq, that was murder too?


We're talking about all the people murdered by Saddam's goons and Al Qaeda, right?

harrogate said...

Seems sort of morbid to roll out a thread on someone's suicide and be all like, it's just like murder. In any case there's not much we can say in condemning someone for committing suicide, that they didn't think of themselves.

36fsfiend said...

edutcher,

No.

Ralph L said...

You'd think, her being an addict, that she would have used pills
She didn't have enough, for obvious reasons.

Shanna said...

"Didn't she think of..." is probably what kept her alive for so long, but her demons, so to speak, likely became overwhelming.

I think you’re right Joe. Having young children is a protective factor against suicide, but sometimes all the other stuff (and the addiction) just weighs people down so much they can’t get past it. It’s very sad.

I was surprised to learn recently that suicide rates tend to rise with age. Presumably the popular focus on teenage suicide keeps us ignorant of this.

I think the reason there is so much focus on teen suicide is that proportionately it is a larger reason for death in that age group, because teenagers don’t die by natural causes nearly as often as the over 65 crowd. I think rates go up in teenagers, then drop somewhere in your 20/30/40s and then start going up again. Suicide in older adults is very common. Suicide is also common after a major loss, loss of a relationship for instance.

I think all this talk of 'self-murder' is not doing whatever you think it's doing.

And to the person who pointed out that guy that killed himself by setting himself on fire? The media probably didn't report it because they didn't want copycats. YMMV.

Methadras said...

Can this equate to being killed by a Kennedy? Man, that family is cursed.

pm317 said...

JAL said...
-------------
There is no person yet (in the early trimester). There should be compassion for the woman who feels the enormity of bringing a life into this world. It is her choice to do whatever when she finds out. Women do find out early enough.

edutcher said...

36fsfiend said...

edutcher,

No.


Color me surprised.

PETER V. BELLA said...

Does anyone really care about the Kennedys anymore?

Roger J. said...

RIP Ms Kennedy

Bruce Hayden said...

So when a man refers to his "beautiful wife," you feel like saying "And what about your ugly wife?"

I see what you are saying here, but think that you are reading too much into this. Guys say this because women like to be thought of as beautiful, esp. by their husbands. I think that we say this sort of thing a lot to women, just to make them feel good. Yes, it is often lying, but as males, we are expected to lie in this way to our womenfolk.

I believe you have ignored the use of the definite article, which, in this case certainly, makes for a different argument (and meaning).

I think that there are two ways to interpret this. One is that the "beautiful" is used to identify which wife (Ann's point), and the other is that the one wife you have is beautiful.

I would suggest that this is one of those anomalies or ambiguities in the English (or at least American variant thereof)language where there is theoretically an ambiguity, but since we do not live in a polygamous society, the ambiguity is essentially resolved in favor of the second definition or interpretation.

Canuck said...

"So what? It is murder. I want people to know that."

Praise God you are not afflicted by mental insanity. It is easy to judge and assume one's own strength, when it is only by the Grace of God you are not in such a position.

Murder is a legal definition. Killing is not a legal definition. We know she killed herself.

We can not know if she murdered herself because we do not know her mental state.

An insane person cannot murder herself because she does not retain the capacity to consent to her own actions.

To define an act as murder, one must have the capacity to consent to the act. Insane people do not possess that level of capacity and rationality.

Astro said...

So when a man refers to his "beautiful wife," you feel like saying "And what about your ugly wife?"
Of course. Come on, who hasn't at least had that thought?
['I keep the ugly one locked in the basement.']
My parents were married 50+ years, but my Dad would still at times jokingly introduce her as 'My first wife.'

Curious George said...

"Ann Althouse said...

I don't like abortion either. I think it is murder, and I like to say that clearly and openly. I try to influence people to resist committing that murder. But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy. There are may bad, evil, and immoral things people do that we may not want the state to use its power to control.

For example, if someone attempts suicide, I wouldn't want the state to imprison them for 20 years, which I would support as a punishment for someone who attempted to murder another person.

But I will call it murder. It's all murder, whether it's a child inside your body or yourself. It's murder and you should face up to what you are really doing.

I support clear thinking, clear language, and personal responsibility."

What a load of crap. To summarize:

"Murder is intentional killing a human being"

"Abortion is murder"

"I would support as a punishment for someone who attempted to murder"

"But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy"

So I guess abortion isn't murder murder.

If you really want to know how dumb and logically twisted this is...here's the proof:

"AllieOop said...
Ann, thank you for being so honest and so clear! I couldn't agree with you more."

Canuck said...

"People need to know when they kill themselves intentionally, they are committing murder. They are also executing the murderer, so maybe you think it's a complete package of justice, but I say it is immoral to kill a human being, and the wrong is not corrected by executing the murderer. It is a wrong and it should be understood and resisted."

Two things: And the reason we have different definitions for murder and killing.

1) It is not always immoral to kill a human being. (in my opinion. Soldiers, for example, on the battlefield. I do not think this is a immoral act.)

2) Contract Theory. John Locke. Intent and Capacity. An act is not immoral if one does not have the capacity to consent to that act.

An insane person who suicides is not immoral if she lacks capacity. It is not a unjust killing if she lacks the capacity for judgement.

It's easy to declare she is going to Hell and ban her body from hallowed ground.

But I've never met the woman. It's not for me to judge a soul after death. And I believe it is likely she lacked the capacity to be thus judged.

Canuck said...

Murder vs. Killing.

Another reason why it's important to have precise definitions.

All abortion is not murder. Clearly--example. Ectopic tubal pregnancy. it's a justified killing. It's not murder to end the pregnancy before the woman dies.

David said...

Suicide is, in most cases, a hostile, aggressive and selfish action. All the more so if by a woman with four children. I do not underestimate the impact of her selfish and irresponsible husband on her suicide, or that of her addictions. But ultimately she was too weak and self centered to persevere through her torments for the benefit of her children and others. We are supposed to feel sorry for the "victims" of suicide. In most cases anger is a more appropriate response.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me suggest that the root for "cide" in "suicide" comes from the Latin "caedo", which is descended from From Proto-Indo-European *keh₂id-, *kh₂eyd- (“to cut, hew”) and is defined as:
To cut, to hew, to fell.
To strike, to beat.
To kill.

From that, I would suggest that "murder" may be too narrow a definition, and rather, "killing" would be more accurate. Legal justification, or lack thereof, seems to have no relevance to the term. Thus, you maybe be able to distinguish between legally justified instances of homicide (killing of a (generic) man of "homo") and non-justified killings, such as murder and manslaughter.

Thus, to bring politics into this, the killing of Trayvon Martin was a homicide, but seems likely now not to have been murder, nor maybe even some form of manslaughter (esp. given the details of the autopsy that are surfacing that show bruised knuckles and the location of a very close range shot to the right chest).

That all said, I think that "suicide" is often taken legally as self-murder, because the normal defenses that would move the killing from justified to unjustified mostly don't apply (e.g. self-defense). So, people can be prosecuted for the inchoate crimes related to suicide such as (failed) attempted suicide as well as being an accessory to such. This means that the underlying crime of suicide is most likely illegal (except in Oregon?), but is never prosecuted, because there is no live perpetrator. Now, justifying criminalizing the actual act is questionable from a moral rights point of view, but is probably done to support criminalizing the related inchoate crimes. Oh - and I am talking the U.S. here, and not countries where suicide is accepted.

Ken said...

Joe,

I will amend my remark to say that suicide is rarely a rational act.

Do you have stats to back this up? What you listed as what you considered to be rational choices for suicides could be a very large percentage of suicides. I don't know the answer and I'm reasonably certain you don't either, so why state it like you do?

Bruce Hayden said...

All abortion is not murder. Clearly--example. Ectopic tubal pregnancy. it's a justified killing. It's not murder to end the pregnancy before the woman dies.

I think that you meant to say that "Not all abortion is murder". What you actually said, I think, was that "No abortion is murder". And, then you gave an example of an instance where the killing would likely be considered justified.

And, that neatly side steps the issue of whether, or when, abortion is "homicide" - which depends on where you draw the line of person-hood and the like.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me correct my previous post:

That all said, I think that "suicide" is often taken legally as self-murder, because the normal defenses that would move the killing from unjustified to justified almost never apply (e.g. self-defense).

Scott M said...

And, that neatly side steps the issue of whether, or when, abortion is "homicide" - which depends on where you draw the line of person-hood and the like.

I don't know about neatly, but what about manslaughter? If a drunk driver hits a pregnant woman and kills both her and the unborn child, that driver, in some states, can get two counts of manslaughter.

What if the woman was on her way to an appointment for an abortion at the local PP? She clearly didn't want the baby. Does the driver get a second count in such a case?

A hypothetical, to be sure, but it illustrates the personhood issue visa vi the whims of the mother.

kcom said...

Medical examiner's report: asphyxiation due to hanging.

A nasty way to go. Just hanging there choking until you're dead. Slow and painful.

Bruce Hayden said...

I will amend my remark to say that suicide is rarely a rational act.

Let me suggest that this is based on our Judea-Christian belief system. As counter examples, I would point to Japanese Seppuku, Buddhist monks killing themselves in protest, and Jihadist suicide bombers, etc.

Scott M said...

Let me suggest that this is based on our Judea-Christian belief system. As counter examples, I would point to Japanese Seppuku, Buddhist monks killing themselves in protest, and Jihadist suicide bombers, etc.

Gasp. Bruce Hayden...relativist?

Bruce Hayden said...

As to why supposedly rational women date, and even marry, Kennedys, here is an explanation: Why Women Choose Bad Boys.

Ann Althouse said...

Self-murder, from the OED:

The taking of one's own life; self-destruction; suicide.

1570 J. Foxe Actes & Monumentes (rev. ed.) II. 2300/2 The wilful and self murder, of Pauyer, of Richard Longe,‥besides infinite other.
1632 W. Lithgow Totall Disc. Trav. vi. 282 Where Iudas hanged him-selfe‥there is a vault erected‥in memory of his selfe murther.
a1715 Bp. G. Burnet Hist. Own Time (1724) I. 553 He [sc. Lord Essex] was found dead; his throat cut.‥ The Coroners Jury found it self-murder.
1741 S. Richardson Pamela IV. xiv. 95 In such a gloomy, saturnine Nation as ours, where Self-murders are more frequent, than in all the Christian World besides.
1843 Macaulay Addison in Ess. (1865) II. 338 The disciple [Budgell]‥closed a wicked and unhappy life by selfmurder.
1898 T. Watts-Dunton Aylwin xii, To save me from dying of self-murder or of a broken heart.
transf.
a1631 J. Donne Letanie in Div. Poems i, in Wks. (Grosart) II. 298 My hart is by dejection clay, And by selfe-murder redd.
1710 R. Steele Tatler No. 251. ⁋2 We should think it the most unnatural Sort of Self-Murther to sacrifice the Sentiment of the Soul to gratify the Appetites of the Body.
1721 N. Amhurst Terræ-filius (1726) I. xv. 76 When a whole civil society‥ destroys itself, it is civil self-murder.


Suicide, from the OED:

a. One who dies by his own hand; one who commits self-murder. Also, one who attempts or has a tendency to commit suicide.
Not in Johnson 1755. For earlier synonyms see self-destroyer n., self-killer n. at self-killed adj. Derivatives, self-murderer n., self-slayer n. at self-slain adj. Derivatives.

1732 London Mag. 1 252 The Suicide owns himself‥unequal to the Troubles of Life.
1769 W. Blackstone Comm. Laws Eng. iv. xiv. 189 The suicide is guilty of a double offence: one spiritual, in invading the prerogative of the Almighty‥: the other temporal, against the king.
1838 W. Bell Dict. Law Scotl. 953 The wounds inflicted by a suicide upon himself are usually in the front, and in an oblique direction.
1861 F. Nightingale Notes on Nursing (ed. 2) 77 A fourth [patient], who is a depressed suicide, requires a little cheering.
1870 R. C. Jebb Sophocles' Electra (ed. 2) 47/1 Suicides used to be interred with a stake through the body, ‘to lay the ghost’.


I say: Speak English. "Suicide" is much later word, and I regard it as a euphemism.

Ann Althouse said...

Let's remember the most notable suicide in the Christian tradition: Judas.

Ann Althouse said...

"As to why supposedly rational women date, and even marry, Kennedys, here is an explanation: Why Women Choose Bad Boys."

The Kennedys are not merely bad boys. They have/had the ultimate in fame/power/glamor/money.

Ann Althouse said...

We have slobbered over the Kennedys for far too long.

How disgusting do they need to be before we can see that they are not beautiful?

Ann Althouse said...

Why are people so willing to portray self-murderers as insane?

Are you so willing to see other-murderers the same way?

No, because you find them alive and you want to punish them. If they are insane, you cannot punish them.

Suicides are dead, so there's nothing to be done to punish the murderer, and the murderer is merged with the victim, whom you feel sorry for.

But self-murder is still murder.

AllieOop said...

Curious George, not curious enough to grasp a complicated concept. So sad for you.

sleepless nights said...

Much like Obama only more so, I do not nor have I ever understood what women see in that family.

I have the benefit of being half Irish. I *know* they'd be a misery to be around therefore there is no attraction. Also my life is already full of athletic, smart guys with full heads of hair and twinkly eyes who are related to me.

What are you all thinking? It's a trap. Get out.

(As I wait on the standby page for Coachella...and the minutes tick by. Sold out in 15 minutes last time.)

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Suicide is one of those words that can be a noun or a verb.

The sad thing is that the woman seems to have been strongly signalling her death spiral for some time. I know you can't always stop someone from self destruction, but where were the people who tried in this scenario?

Jason said...

So when a man refers to his "beautiful wife," you feel like saying "And what about your ugly wife?"

It's like meeting the man of your dreams. And then meeting his suicide wife!

IT'S LIKE RAAYYEEEEAAAAAAINNNNNN ... ON YOUR WEDDING DAY!!!!

Curious George said...

"AllieOop said...
Curious George, not curious enough to grasp a complicated concept. So sad for you."

It's a very simple concept. As Althouse says, abortion is murder. What complicates it is the moronic logical and moral twisting to try to take both sides. We've been through this recently with you. In the end, you are immoral, or an idiot, but I won't discount both.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

In my mind, murder is the deliberate killing of someone who doesn't want to die, or who hasn't consented to die.

Abortion is murder. (with exceptions like the ectopic pregnancy)

Suicide is not murder.

A suicide is a willing participant in his/her own killing. (unless there is split personality and one says "no way I don't want to die" and the other says "yes we do"...joking...sort of)

Assisted suicide? Murder or not? Mercy killing? What if the suicide is at the request of a terminally ill person who is living in excruciating pain? Someone who is completely paralyzed and requests to end the life that is bringing them nothing but pain and despair? You have a willing participant who would do the act for themselves if they could.

AllieOop said...

Curious George, still too complicated for you I see. I guess that leaves you as a "moral" idiot.

Alex said...

People who have committed suicide should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. No mercy!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Curious George, still too complicated for you I see

There is nothing complicated about it.

Killing another person who doesn't want to die is murder. An unborn child doesn't want to die. When you kill that person, you have murdered him/her.

Just because the pregnancy is unwanted, inconvenient or for some other self centered reason is no cause to murder another human being.

The only exceptions for not classifying abortion as murder, would be if carrying the pregnancy forward would cause the mother to die or likely die: as in an ectopic pregnancy. Then you would be forcing the mother to involuntarily suicide or to be murdered by the continuation of the pregnancy.

Of you want to take the other tactic that abortion is not murder, then killing anyone for any reason that you personally like or consider valid, is not murder either. Erase that edge of morality and we are all in deep doo doo.

We might, for instance, collectively assume that your life is not helpful, perhaps you are too old: or that you are in too much mental or physical pain and we will end your life whether you want to or not.

ken in sc said...

When the King James Bible was written, the word 'kill' meant murder. If you wanted to use the word like we do today, you would have chosen the word 'slaughter' instead.

Ralph L said...

A fourth [patient], who is a depressed suicide, requires a little cheering.
A little? Too late.
Also my life is already full of athletic, smart guys with full heads of hair and twinkly eyes who are related to me.
Spice is nice, but incest is best.

Ralph L said...

Did anyone else notice that Mary looked a lot like Jackie?

traditionalguy said...

The Professor has perfected the self murder accusation as a way to shock the ones who are thinking about the possibility of suicide.

The push back by many commenters surprizes me. My guess is that the once popular Existentialism teachings are lingering. They said that self murder was the ultimate act that proves a man's freedom. Hmmm.

Joe said...

I would point to Japanese Seppuku, Buddhist monks killing themselves in protest, and Jihadist suicide bombers, etc.

These are all rare and even then rarely rational, thus sustaining the point that suicide is rarely rational.

The drive for self-preservation crosses all cultural boundaries. Even within cultures that claim to honor ritual suicide, it's often not as accepted as made out to be by death romanticists.

William said...

If suicide is self murder, then, like murder, there are degrees of guilt. I would say that the mother of four young children who kills herself has committed first degree suicide. For the rest of their lives, this suicide will be at the back of her children's minds as a viable solution to their own problems. Suicide is a hereditary disease that she has just now introduced into her family's bloodlines.....I would allow suicide to those with a terminal illness. This isn't self murder. God has sentenced them and they do not wish to file an appeal.

AllieOop said...

DBQ, Althouse said it was murder, I agreed. Althouse said she doesn't think abortion should be illegal, I agreed. Now that is simplifying it.

Who was arguing that it WASN'T murder?

AllieOop said...

I said,
Ann, thank you for being so honest and so clear! I couldn't agree with you more. I'm saving this quote.

Ann Althouse said,
"I don't like abortion either. I think it is murder, and I like to say that clearly and openly. I try to influence people to resist committing that murder. But I don't want the state enforcing continuance of a pregnancy. There are may bad, evil, and immoral things people do that we may not want the state to use its power to control.

I support clear thinking, clear language, and personal responsibility."

5/17/12 9:35 AM

What gets complicated is the idea that one can be a moral caring person who thinks abortion is murder, yet understands that using government to control such an act is also wrong. People who see everything in black and white and ignore all the shades of gray, usually can't grasp difficult moral concepts.

Valentine Smith said...

Suicide is the ultimate Fuck You.

It's a fuck you to her children, at least one of whom will now kill his or herself in the future—permission granted.

It's a fuck you to her husband—who probably feels relieved.

The Kennedys have inherited Patriarch Joe's hedonism and Matriarch Rose's religosity—now debased to an undemanding pagan Enviromentalism.

William said...

Life is not depressing. Drugs, booze, and marriage to a philanderer are extremely depressing.

Curious George said...

"AllieOop said...
What gets complicated is the idea that one can be a moral caring person who thinks abortion is murder, yet understands that using government to control such an act is also wrong. People who see everything in black and white and ignore all the shades of gray, usually can't grasp difficult moral concepts."

See, this is the answer of a moron. It says nothing. It's how students answer essay questions when they don't know the answer. There is no way you can support it. But I will let you try. So how do you take the position that although abortion is murder, and immoral, their should be no government control? I'll even forget the fact that just last week you were calling for control over why someone had an abortion...gay, eye color, sex. You can start from scratch.

Good luck.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

What gets complicated is the idea that one can be a moral caring person who thinks abortion is murder, yet understands that using government to control such an act is also wrong

Government already controls murder. All the time.

You can't just kill someone at your own convenience because you want to or choose to, without being punished. You murder or even kill someone in a manslaughter case, you are under the control of the government. We are 'forced' to not kill or murder all the time by law. Some people break the law and they are subject to the laws.

What you want is to have the murder of unborn babies be sanctioned by the government. Still government control. Some how in your mind, one murder is not murder. Because it is a baby and you approve of being able to choose who to kill.

You want to have it both ways. Murder as a crime when you don't approve and murder, snuffing out the life of an unborn child, to be as minor as clipping a hangnail when you do.

AllieOop said...

Alas, George you are incurious. Still too difficult for you. I'm not going to do your thinking for you, try to figure it out, but I doubt that will be possible, you are one of those black and white viewers of life.

Now that is pretty simple to figure out, after reading one or two of your usually nasty comments.

AllieOop said...

DBQ, you have told me you were pro choice, have you changed your mind?

AllieOop said...

One of those gray areas Curious George, would be when people start aborting children based solely on the baby having the wrong sex or eye color, etc. as happens in China and India, and yes I think one day the government may need to step in to regulate the practice of EUGENICS.

Nothing is static, things, concepts and people do evolve, or is this too difficult for you to grasp also?

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Allie

I have said that I am not anti-abortion. That doesn't mean that I am pro choice in the sense that you can just decide to kill your unborn child for any reason any time.

Abortion is government sanctioned murder and I am definitely anti- paying for abortions. NO taxpayer money should ever be used for this purpose. This is why I support de-funding Planned Parenthood: because they facilitate abortions. Private donations, charities etc can pay for abortion. Since it is legal you can pay to support abortion if you want.

Abortions should be rare and for medical reasons. To choose to murder your own child for other than medical reasons that endanger the life of the mother. There is no excuse for casual and repeat abortions, especially when birth control is freely available. You can choose to use birth control, condoms or the old aspirin between the knees method long before you 'choose' to murder an unborn child.

Even in the cases of rape and incest, I don't think abortion is necessary. This may make me seem hard and unfeeling, but unless you are going to DIE from the pregnancy or in the case of a young child who is impregnated and is going to be medically damaged, abortion should not be done. In these cases, with the unfortunate mother have a lot of mental suffering. Probably. All kinds of things cause mental suffering. But she isn't going to die from it and can and should receive counseling and protection.

A child can be adopted. A child can be killed. I'm pretty sure the adoption angle from the point of view of the child is preferred.

I am also pro choice in that I feel that if the Voters want to sanction legal murder, I guess that is the way that democracy works and I reluctantly accept the laws and hope that people work to change the laws.

If only the gay rights activists would also accept the right to choose. The voters have spoken in many states and like abortion, like it or not, it is the law of the land. For now.

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Of interest here would be Spengler's take on Judeo-Christian faiths imparting a hope for life in our death from the promises of a loving God.

But once men throw out such as "superstition", then they sense the meaninglessness in their lives, their parents lives and uselessness in causing children's lives. Instead they nwatch Zombie movies of death in life.

AllieOop said...

DBQ,
Oh yes, lots oh gray areas. But bottom line is you are not anti abortion. Glad you admitted this. I really don't know why you were so vociferously arguing against me when we basically agree.

Curious George said...

"AllieOop said...
One of those gray areas Curious George, would be when people start aborting children based solely on the baby having the wrong sex or eye color, etc. as happens in China and India, and yes I think one day the government may need to step in to regulate the practice of EUGENICS.

Nothing is static, things, concepts and people do evolve, or is this too difficult for you to grasp also?"

Again, moronic. When people start? It already happens. Do you not realize that? Women have abortions for the simple reason that they simply don't want to have a baby! They have them for any reason or no reason at all.

Your position isn't nuanced, or discerning shades of gray, it's just stupid or intellectually dishonest, or both. It flies in your little echo chamber because it's filled with stupid, intellectually dishonest people.

As far as Eugenics...I think it's funny that a person that forgives abortion of black children because they can't get adopted is now concerned about eugenics.

Freeman Hunt said...

You have four children, and you off yourself because your husband is a heel and you can't make your credit card payment? Sheesh.

AllieOop said...

Dumbass George,
Women are NOT aborting their babies because of eugenics, look up the meaning of eugenics, they are aborting them because they don't want them, no matter what. Another difficult concept? Sigh.

Methadras said...

Suicide begins long before you've killed your self. You've already murdered your life to the point that breathing is the agony that you want to stop. The killing part is just another step you have to take to finish the job. It is self-murder. Humans kill for food and in self-defence. Murder is often times the willful and planned ending of a human life. Some people might see it as a distinction without a difference. I don't.

Freeman Hunt said...

People need to chin up. My goodness, look at history. Look at certain places in the world today. People have and do live through real horrors. And here we are with people who can't face a little upset.

While Amex was calling you, someone saw his whole family macheted to death. While your lame husband was bird-dogging, another woman was starting day 2617 in a hard labor camp for political prisoners.

Suck it up. Your life is not so awful. Think of someone other than yourself.

Christy said...

So, was Socrates a "suicide teacher?" Do you consider him a suicide? Or did he make a choice in his own end?

2520 hits on "ann althouse socratic method" fwiw

Paddy O said...

"Why are people so willing to portray self-murderers as insane?"

I think it's partially (or sometimes) a byproduct of our own intense sense of self-preservation. Someone who is so outside of that self-preservation must be, by definition it seems, crazy. Though, I'm sure the DSM-V would, no doubt, say that killing yourself is a perfectly rational and normal thing to do, if only the suicide lobby were strong enough. They just keep losing voting members.

I think there's also a protective quality to it. We want it to be seen as crazy so that people thinking about it will think of it as a crazy thing to do. Making it socially shameful is a great deterrent for many. And so, so often, just getting person past the moments of despair for whatever reason is enough to help them see renewed hope.

Not the same as crazy, but I was talking to a woman on the phone right after she had downed a bunch of pills, trying to kill herself. She asked, in slurred language, if I thought suicide victims went to hell. I don't, actually. I think it's a sin, but add it to the list of all our other sins. But, I knew she cared, so I didn't want to comfort her in deciding for suicide. I said, "I don't know, but that's what is taught." Implying that she would go to hell. Well, that and a few other things I must have said got her to call an ambulance, and got her to the hospital, and now she's doing extremely well.

So, there's truth truth, and there's tactical truth. Calling suicide an act of a crazy person might be either of these.

Curious George said...

"AllieOop said...
Dumbass George,
Women are NOT aborting their babies because of eugenics, look up the meaning of eugenics, they are aborting them because they don't want them, no matter what. Another difficult concept? Sigh."

The only problem is that I never said they were. I was comparing your acceptance of black abortion and your concern regarding eugenics.

ndspinelli said...

Everyone here has just seen pomposity @ its finest. People w/ true self esteem and character will admit when they're wrong. Those w/o dig in their heels and don't give an inch.

The Kennedy family has been a pox on this country for almost a century now. The dead bodies of women, the rape of women, the abuse of women, shows their utter contempt for females. However, their biggest supporters are women thanks to the feminist movement. One can't truly understand history unless they can appreciate irony.

AllieOop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllieOop said...

My acceptance of black abortion, George? Since when did I ever say black abortion was any more moral than white abortion, now you resort to outright lies. Pretty low.

I did voice concern over the ramifications to this society, if all abortion was outlawed. I also said I would be willing to pay more taxes to support these children and I didn't hear anyone else but one commenter say they would be willing to pay more taxes in supporting these children, should abortion be outlawed.

She was the only one that stepped forward and said she would be willing, besides me.

This thread isn't about abortion, but since you continue to attack me for merely agreeing with Althouse, I guess I am complicit with you in hijacking this thread.

Why don't you address your anger toward Ann, I'm done with you.

Scott M said...

I also said I would be willing to pay more taxes to support these children and I didn't hear anyone else but one commenter say they would be willing to pay more taxes in supporting these children, should abortion be outlawed.

She was the only one that stepped forward and said she would be willing, besides me.


Perhaps because saying so is foolish. With the shocking amount of outright waste and fraud in our government, it shouldn't require too much swamp-draining to find the money to take care of these kids. Dramatic policy shifts, such as outlawing abortions and opening a shitload of federal/state orphinariums require dramatic swamp-drainage first, not higher taxes.

AllieOop said...

Yes Scott, it is foolish to think that anyone would be willing to pay a dime to support hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies. EXACTLY.

Those are the ramifications to society I speak of and more I won't go into.

Scott M said...

Yes Scott, it is foolish to think that anyone would be willing to pay a dime to support hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies. EXACTLY.

That's not what I said at all. Admit it.

Darrell said...

And please, nobody should even think about murder when a Kennedy is involved. Don't even think about it. I'm sure the troopers that came around went over everything with a fine-toothed comb. More than three minutes, I heard. And there was a note. Couldn't fake that.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

You have four children, and you off yourself because your husband is a heel and you can't make your credit card payment? Sheesh.

Back from the everlasting sucking abyss of trying to have a rational conversation with Allie about abortion.

Freeman, nails it. Of all the reasons to kill yourself and abandon your children, the prospect of losing some material things and that you married an asshole, those are pretty meaningless things.

Especially when you compare the sufferings and deprivations that millions of women around the world endure daily. Perspective.

AllieOop said...

DBQ, you simply be cannot be rational and argue against your own stance, which is barely different than mine. I caught you in your hypocrisy, makes ya mad, huh?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

which is barely different than mine. I caught you in your hypocrisy, makes ya mad, huh?

What hypocrisy. I have been quite clear on my views of abortion.

AllieOop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
harrogate said...

Though much remains undetermined, one thing has emerged very clear: People considering suicide should definitely stay away from this thread.

AllieOop said...

You were on a roll there for a while with all your moralizing about what abortion was, totally IGNORING that no one ever said it wasn't murder, then you went on to argue against abortion, until I asked you if you forgot that YOU said you were pro choice, YOUR OWN WORDS, and not just once. Then you twisted and turned at the end of your own rope and said you were not "anti abortion" sheesh, own your hypocrisy.

You messed up and tried to back out of it gracefully, you were far from graceful.

AllieOop said...

Gawd, rope, hanging, hmmm, perhaps I should've used a different analogy, or maybe it brings this thread back on topic. Sorry, black humor.

John Lynch said...

People will put up with a lot, but loss of status seems to be a real bitch.

cf said...

She had four children and they are growing up. Her husband sued for divorce. She was in financial difficulty and they were about to deal with custody issues. She feared losing the children, support and the house she had designed and worked so hard on . (He announced he wanted out a couple of weeks after it was built.)
He dumped his first wife for her so they could marry a few months before the birth of their eldest,

He's stupid (Mr. anti-vaccine and green nitwit) and venal (Hugo Chavez' partner)and he was so to her as well.

I hope his latest cupcake Cheryl is paying attention.

Ann Althouse said...

"So, was Socrates a "suicide teacher?" Do you consider him a suicide? Or did he make a choice in his own end?"

Socrates was given the death penalty. He did make a choice not to escape. That is, he recognized the authority of the legal system that had condemned him and submitted to it. The lesson he taught was to abide by the judgment of the court (even if you think it was wrong and even if you have a way to elude the authority).

Ann Althouse said...

Jesus also kept silent and accepted the imposition of the death penalty. He also declined to resist arrest.

Peter said...

When I was a young boy a neighbor of ours hanged himself. He had cancer and was dying. I disremember what kind of cancer but it was one of the more painful ones.

Then in my professional life I was in on a lot of suicides. Few were as rational as that one back in the early fifties. I was actually able to talk a couple of people down from suicide. Pardon me for taking a little pride in that. Suicide. A permenent solution to a usually temporary problem.

There are actually a couple of things that would make me eat my gun, the aforesaid painful terminal cancer is one, Alzheimers another. The thought of losing my mind is something that really scares me.

I had a stroke when I was fifty-eight. For a while I couldn't speak or think. I was in a rifle company in Viet nam. I spent over twenty years wearing a badge and gun. I've been shot, I've been threatened and I lost a few teeth when an almost 300 pound PCP monster almost got loose and started flailing away with the cuffs on only one wrist. I was a squad leader during the battle of Hue City in 1968. Nothing in my life has ever scared me like that stroke. No, alzheimers is not an option for me.

Would this harm my wife, kids or grandkids? Not as much as watching Gramps turn into a human turnip.

R. Chatt said...

“Judge not, that you be not judged." Matthew 7:1

el polacko said...

if she were still alive, she would be proud of bobby's positions on the environment. didn't somebody make a similar comment about mary jo and teddy ?