February 10, 2012

"Our society has let [children] down by not being supportive of mothers, and even fathers, who dedicate their time and often their lives to their children."

Please read the 3-paragraph-long book passage that I've added to the post about whether Rick Santorum is committed to equality for women. He fights what he calls "radical" feminism, but he's expressing a feminist position. He calls the radical feminists "misogynistic" (for making "working outside the home the only marker of social value and self-respect").

67 comments:

CJinPA said...

We can't have small government AND our current and rising number of single-parent homes. Not possible. You need lots of government to support such households.

So, small government advocates who say talk of family is pointless social con fluff are wrong. Talk of small government without addressing what's driving government reach is pointless.

Santorum, as unlikeable, and at this point probably unelectable, as he is, is the only GOP politician who addresses that.

ricpic said...

My mother never gave me quality time. When I came home from PS 76 at lunchtime I could talk as much as I wanted to but always to her back. On the other hand at least her back was there. This of course was in the days before the insane freak I have to have it all brigade.

Lisa said...

Wow. So the people who want women to have choices, to not have people limited to certain roles because of their gender are the misogynists?

Double plus good.

TMink said...

Great point CJ. A big government is necessary to prop up the single parent trainwreck. It can do so monetarily, as long as the children and grandchildren foot the bill, but it is completely unsustainable.

And not even the government can keep the kids without dads out of jail, keep them from dropping out of school, and keep them from becoming parents at 14.

Trey

shiloh said...

Again Althouse, don't tell me you're switching allegiance from mittens to Santo as it wouldn't be prudent at this juncture.

Santo being more of a train wreck than mittens notwithstanding.

Bender said...

Yes, Lisa, the people that despise and seek to destroy and suppress the ONE thing that makes a woman uniquely woman, the one thing that distinguishes a woman from a man, are the ones who are anti-woman.

edutcher said...

Feminism stigmatized the stay-at-home Mom, so I'd argue what Samtorum's saying is really a feminist position. The best feminism could do for housewives was demand they be paid.

But the issue is the current pop culture pushes all the choices that foster single parent households which, of course, makes more people dependent on government.

This is where the Libertarians go wrong - if you want people who are independent of government and don't want to be on the dole, you have to change the culture and that means a more socially Conservative mindset.

Bender said...

The counterfeit feminism of the left is essentially anti-woman. It despises the feminine, hates those attributes that are uniquely and exclusively woman, and advocates instead that women should become like the worst caricatures of men.

Most especially, the counterfeit feminism of the left sees the female body, and thus the female person, as something to be destroyed. Obsessed with genitalia, they see the uterus and ovaries as little more than defective abnormalities to be suppressed, and they see the fruits thereof, i.e. the unborn child, as a diseased tumor to be cut out of the body. To the counterfeit feminism of the left, the only real woman is the one who rejects and seeks to destroy these things which are exclusive to women.

To the counterfeit feminism of the left, which lusts for power, the only good woman is the one who acts like the misogynist men that populate the left, who exploit and use women as objects, especially sexually.

Authentic feminism, on the other hand, recognizes and celebrates the intrinsic value and genius of woman, equal to man in dignity and complementary of him. Authentic feminism is not concerned with a power struggle, does not see man as an instrinsic oppressive patriarchy, but as an equal partner, both with different characteristics that are exclusive to that sex, but which complement each other. Authentic feminism recognizes and celebrates that women are women and men are men, both called, as part of their nature as human persons, to the giving of self, charity in truth.

bgates said...

This is where the Libertarians go wrong

No it isn't. Libertarians don't deny the importance of culture, and there's no contradiction between a libertarian political philosophy and a socially conservative mindset.

Patrick said...

"if you want people who are independent of government and don't want to be on the dole, you have to change the culture and that means a more socially Conservative mindset."

edutcher, you may be correct, but that sort of change should not (and cannot) come through the government. It needs to come from parenting. I think the increased use of the dole has allowed, if not lead to the culture we have.

edutcher said...

bgates said...

This is where the Libertarians go wrong

No it isn't. Libertarians don't deny the importance of culture, and there's no contradiction between a libertarian political philosophy and a socially conservative mindset.


That has not been my experience.

In fact, IMHO, it's the one thing that binds all Libertarians together.

traditionalguy said...

What Bender said, and said very well.

Devaluing of women is not an American tradition. The feminists made that up.

But women once having been trained and educated and then being told to stay out of Men's professions was exposed by WWII as outdated nonsense.

We need to stay out of the ditches on both sides of this road.

Devaluing men is not the answer.

I ♥ Willard said...

I didn't know Ricky had written a book. He spends ever so much time thinking about gay men having sex. He spends more time thinking about gay men having sex than gay men think about sex.

It's great that Ricky is so passionate about his hobby but it can't be healthy for a grown man to spend so much time worrying about what other men are doing with their winkies.

CJinPA said...

Wow. So the people who want women to have choices, to not have people limited to certain roles because of their gender are the misogynists?

Lisa,

I think he's calling bullshit on the claim that hyper-feminists just "want women to have choices"..:

He calls the radical feminists "misogynistic" (for making "working outside the home the only marker of social value and self-respect").

Hope that helps.

Scott M said...

In fact, IMHO, it's the one thing that binds all Libertarians together.

If you want to break up a libertarian party, just pose the question "how would a libertarian administration and congress have dealt with WWII?"

Works every time.

ricpic said...

I Heart Willard fantasizes that anyone gives a damn about his deviancy. Pathetic.

CJinPA said...

Oh my, this "Willard" poster has made me flustered by alluding to gay sex and Santorum! My monocle dropped straight into my snifter of brandy, splashing my John Birch newsletter!

Well played, sir. But please Google the next site that mentions "Santorum" and paste your well-crafted response there. We're no match for you.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

I can’t speak for ALL “l/Libertarians” but the ones I’ve met seem rather blind to culture…from An-Cap’s who deny the very EXISTENCE of society, “There is only the interaction of individuals” to more traditional Open-Borders l/Libertarians who seem to think that the US is where’a’you hang’na your hat (in the words of Lord John Worfin) and that we can and should allow anyone to come to the US- as long as we have no Welfare State-as if the influx of millions of immigrants will have NO effect on the nation, whatsoever….

So I have found that libertarians certainly seem to downplay “culture.” And whilst a “socially conservative mindset” may be one of the claims of most libertarians…”I don’t frequent/use drugs/prostitutes/marry gays/(Insert action/object here) BUT…” seems to be de rigeur Sure YOU are socially conservative, but you allow everyone ELSE to run wild…seems to be way libertarians argue…sure YOU wouldn’t smoke crack, but if your neighbor wants to that’s OK….sorry, as a more socially conservative person, I worry about how long any society can exist under the banner if it feels good do it, because though I WOULDN’T I won’t stop you.”

Further, all the above ignores that once you have millions of immigrants/drug users/(insert group here) then they will demand a Welfare State, to alleviate the problems that they experience as a result of their choices, which, to me at least, means l/Libertarians, in the end, eliminate themselves because they have Drug Use AND Welfare…leading to the very thing they abhor, a large and expensive state. Brought on by their support for a socially liberal set of policies.

I ♥ Willard said...

I Heart Willard fantasizes that anyone gives a damn about his deviancy. Pathetic.

What an odd defense of Ricky's preoccupation with homosexuality.

CJinPA said...

bgates,

If there's any non-snarky libertarian reference to family values, or however folks want to term intact families, I haven't seen it. But I'd be interested in seeing it if you can point me there.

Rose said...

Bender - beautifully stated.

Bob Ellison said...

Won't someone please think of the children?

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
If you want to break up a libertarian party, just pose the question "how would a libertarian administration and congress have dealt with WWII
1) By denying that the Nazi’s were a threat to the US;
2) But allowing individual citizens the ability to oppose the Nazi’s as they saw fit, thru things such as Interpretive Dance or a Privately Funded “Manhattan Project.”
3) HOWEVER, any damage caused to German Private Property would give the German Property Holders a cause of action in US courts, but the courts would be privately held and run, so there could be negotiations concerning which court and judges would hear the case(s).
4) But certainly we would NEVER use “Slavery” i.e., the Draft to defeat the Nazi’s, we oppose Slavery, UNLESS it’s in the South and then we just really wish to ignore it, and blame Lincoln for Authoritarianism, and note that Slavery was economically inefficient and would have disappeared, even if it had a longer history than Christianity or Western Enlightenment Ideals.
5) And we would NEVER have resorted to propaganda or high taxes to defeat the non-Gold Standard-Using Nazi’s…..
6) But we would have prevailed, because Free Markets ALWAYS prevail and any way the Nazi’s were Poopie Heads, and Good always wins, because Good is Nicer.

Joe said...

There a huge difference between raising pre-schoolers and older children. And why should women continue to be "housewives" after the children are grown?

Why should a mother whose children are all in school feel guilty about getting a part time job?

CJinPA said...

Trey,

I appreciate the agreement because I can't get many of my fellow conservatives to see it that way.

Basically, if you profess to care about smaller government, lower taxes, better schools without more money, healthy children without more programs, lower crime rates without more jails, less poverty without more welfare, etc....you should be targeting the Left's successful effort in increasing the number of "nontraditional" (single-parent) families.

If that doesn't appeal to you, then on a purely political level you better understand that Americans will never, never vote to end costly programs that keep the children of single parents alive and off the streets. Especially when we won't tell the voters how those children ended up in the situation where they need taxpayer support.

Scott M said...

Crap, Joe. I just realized I still owe you chapter 2. Josh is still a bit whiny. I'm working on that.

Bob Ellison said...

Yes, Bender's comment is a good one. I'm lucky to have many feminists of the sort he describes in my life: strong women who follow their own principles.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Crap, Joe. I just realized I still owe you chapter 2. Josh is still a bit whiny. I'm working on that
I figured you were laboring on it. I figured it would turn up n my “inbox” one day….

CJinPA said...

Why should a mother whose children are all in school feel guilty about getting a part time job?

Who on earth is making such moms "feel guilty"? Except for that guy with the time machine who likes to go back to 1952 and make women feel bad.

Rusty said...

My wife got sick while she was pregnant with our youngest. I took a lot of the parenting roles until our daughter was 18 months old. Again when my wife had to have neck surgery and then years of physical therapy I sold my business so that I could take the time and take care of her and our daughter.
Best decision I ever made.

Scott M said...

Yes, Bender's comment is a good one.

Speaking of which, my four-year-old can no longer watch Futurama with her older siblings as she declared, "That's putting gas in your ass" this morning. Unfortunately, my wife heard her say it, so I didn't get to enjoy the fruits of my efforts.

Palladian said...

"Family values" are not the government's business. And if your society is so crippled and out-of-control that you need the coercive power of the secular State to attempt to prop up morality, then it's too late.

Silly people seem to have trouble distinguishing "society" from "government". They're different.

edutcher said...

Patrick, I think we're pretty much in agreement on keeping government out of it. The real problem is the pop culture.

PS ♥ just wants some attention.

CJinPA said...

I'm lucky to have many feminists of the sort he describes in my life: strong women who follow their own principles.

I alwasy felt lucky having more mainstream feminists in my life: Mainly, conservative Democrats who told feminists to cram it, and took time off from their careers to care for their children. Or, in the case of my grandmother, never needed a career to become the unquestioned leader of the family.

The kind of women who fought to have a choice, and then fought the hyper-feminists to actually make their choice.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
The same way we ought to deal with a nuclear-armed Israel and Iran
You mean by allowing a Holocaust, followed by skyrocketing energy prices, and Global Recession? H’mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm not my option of first choice.

shiloh said...

San­to­rum group kumbaya hug at 7:28 re: the Terri Schi­avo hear­ing on the sen­ate floor.

The thought of Santo being the Rep nom­i­nee is too deli­cious to digest! :

btw, Frist diagnosed Schiavo's condition from the senate chambers ~ quite a feat although it was never written up in any medical journal.

Scott M said...

See my comments on Germany, and the smarts on playing a "long game".

I did see them and summarily ignored them as they, in the context of WWII, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ditto your attempt to link WWII and Israel-Iran.

CJinPA said...

Family values" are not the government's business.

You're about 50 years and 10 trillion dollars late on that one, my friend. That was the point of my first post. So many small government advocates pretending it's stil 1968 and they're Bill Buckley arguing that government and societal outcomes must be seperated. We lost that fight. Mainly because we waged it only in Washington, while the Left took it to the rest of the country and changed the culture. Because they weren't afraid to make the makeup of families and issue.

There are whole communities in the U.S. where the illegitimacy rate is 90% and taxpayer support is the only thing keeping entire communities alive. You tell us how we convince voters to recapture those tax dollars.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Probably not something easily understood by the living-from-paycheck-to-paycheck, or supporting multiple family situations, crowd...

It's an independence thing, really, and you've got to be fairly self-disciplined and responsible for it to work

*WOW* Debbie Bosanek you grace us with your presence….Shouldn’t you be getting Warren’s coffee or Metamucil?

I ♥ Willard said...

Frist diagnosed Schiavo's condition from the senate chambers

If only he could diagnose Ricky's condition. :(

Joe said...

((The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
You're a bit slow, eh?

Think of it through: where were the Madoff's in Germany, the financial men internally exploiting the system for their own gains


Man, I got it, on the BOURSE in Deutchesbank, in the SYNAGOGUE….

Let's let the Jews fight their own battles this time around.

Us Tricksy Ole joooos, got you dum White Boyz to fight our fight fer us…we’re Tricksy that way!

Next world war,
surely they'll learn of cause and effect, from the resulting consequences of their own actions


Yeah, they’ll learn to kill everyone around them, once they’ve established a nation-state of their own…because even when they aren’t in Europe, apparently the neighbors will STILL try to exterminate them.

Yhwh Above you’re an idjit…

Funny once you scratch a modern “libertarian” these days, you can find a Storm Front member lurking under the paint.

Paddy O said...

I don't get the language used in the quote.

"Our society has let children down"?

Really? How does a society let children down? By not being supportive. Is society even supposed to be supportive? Is society this all-encompassing source of answers for our self-esteem?

Why is it society's business anyhow? If a mother wants to stay home isn't that her choice? Is society mandating that women have to work?

I don't get it, because what it sounds like is Santorum wanting society to be an answer to helping women have higher self-esteem and possibly mitigate the consequences of woman who stay at home (thus not bringing in a second income, thus having to live within a tighter budget).

Stay home, don't stay home, what does society have to do with it? If a mother is worried about society's judgments, she probably should work outside the home, because staying home with the kids is going to perpetuate dysfunctional sense of identity.

CJinPA said...

Define "without dads" for us, Trey.And then tell us how "Mary" the daughter from your first wife is doing? I mean, if you're going to preach about the "single parent trainwreck", please start accepting some responsibility as a man who didn't committ to his family, the first time around anyway?

Ugh. This topic always veers from the societal to the personal pretty quickly.

Since I brought up the topic, I can say I was not refering to divorce, or even accidental out-of-wedlock births. (Reall accidents, not wink-wink accidents.) The main problem is the growing number of people choosing single parenthood. You will find them in the communities most in need of taxpayer support.

Palladian said...

CJinPA, just because you've given up on America doesn't mean the rest of us have. Go, join Santorum in the dustbin of failure.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Lol... if that's a clever cultural reference, please enlighten me.

I don't traffic much in pop culture, and despite your gender confusion, I'm not a secretary. Or a receptionist.

Don't have the head for it, those "serving" roles. Is your wife available for hire (the first, or the replacements.

Why Ms Bosanek is Warren Buffet’s Assistant…she does quite well, and certainly could afford to be as smug as you….

Ann Althouse said...

"Wow. So the people who want women to have choices, to not have people limited to certain roles because of their gender are the misogynists?"

He doesn't say that. He says that the radical feminists made women feel that the only good choice was work outside the home.

Freeman Hunt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ann Althouse said...

(If you have a question about deletions, please email us.)

traditionalguy said...

I think the answer is that Santorum is inculcated with the same culture as The Wise Latina is inculcated with.

Both want a merciful system and a legal judgemental system working together like two hands clapping.

That is called Roman Catholicism.

We could do worse, especially if our other two choices are a Mormon and a Marxist atheist.

I want Mitch Daniels, the Presbyterian mensch, back.

But maybe Santorum picks Daniels as his VP?

CJinPA said...

Palladian said...

Golly, I sure don't want to fail! So how can we finally win on this issue of not expanding the size of government to prop up single-parent families while not telling voters that propping up single-parent families is expanding the size of government?

Because, that's the status quo approach you're defending and it's been a miserable failure.

edutcher said...

I ♥ Willard said...

Frist diagnosed Schiavo's condition from the senate chambers

If only he could diagnose Ricky's condition. :(


Maybe he should start with ♥'s schizoid tendencies.

A good doctor or nurse can diagnose a great deal from even the most cursory description of the situation.

Perhaps ♥ should consult someone who knows what they're talking about.

CJinPA said...

People have an investment in the survival of their own that they don't have in government families.

Of course. But, as voters have proven time and time again, they don't really think their taxes are being spent to raise othe people's children. Because we don't have the nerve to tell them.

There is no evidence that the squishy independents who decide elections would support cold turkey. None.

Rusty said...

He doesn't say that. He says that the radical feminists made women feel that the only good choice was work outside the home.


Raising kids is hard work.

Rusty said...

We should have bombed Israel back when they were developing nuclear technology.



Whoa. Where'd that come from? I expected a more nuanced form of hatred from a college site.

MadisonMan said...

A good doctor or nurse can diagnose a great deal from even the most cursory description of the situation.

The relevant question is then: Was Frist's diagnosis correct?

No.

Portia said...

"I ♥ Willard said...

I didn't know Ricky had written a book. He spends ever so much time thinking about gay men having sex. He spends more time thinking about gay men having sex than gay men think about sex.

It's great that Ricky is so passionate about his hobby but it can't be healthy for a grown man to spend so much time worrying about what other men are doing with their winkies."

Says a lot more about you than it does about Santorum.

RonS said...

When Betty Friedan's book the Feminine Mystique was first published, she was invited to speak at Cornell University. I was a member of the grad wives club. A number of us attended her talk, which afterward generated much enthusiastic conversation. Some of the young mothers that evening expressed eagerness to get an additional degree to prepare tham for the "real" world; others looked forward to going into some business or opening a shop. I distinctly remember stating that I wanted to be a Campbell's Soup mother...and I was for many years afterward, untill my kids went to high school.

I ♥ Willard said...

Says a lot more about you than it does about Santorum.

Hmmmm. Applying your logic, it says a lot more about you than it does about Santorum or me.

Sorry about that but there is a penalty for irrationality. Take care.

Ann Althouse said...

Read the comments instructions, please:

"[W]e delete comments that discuss deletions. Any questions about deletions should be resolved by emailing us."

Ann Althouse said...

Discussion of deletions is off-topic and therefore deleted.

I ♥ Willard said...

Maybe he should start with ♥'s schizoid tendencies.

Oh snap! The guy who obsessively reads and replies to my comments is now pretending to diagnose medical conditions on teh internets. It's a good deflection tactic by someone who has nothing intelligent to say.

Carry on.

Rick67 said...

Santorum has a good point and makes it well. This is precisely the complaint my wife has had against "feminism" since before we got married. Lisa brilliantly misread the excerpt. The critique of radical feminism isn't that it gave women choices, if in fact it deserves credit for that, which is disputable in this context, but that it *denigrates* those who choose marriage, children, and home. This is the irony of cultural leftism. It claims to be about giving people "choice", when what it means is ridiculing those who choose what they don't prefer. How dare Palin not abort Trig!

Michael said...

Bill Frist travels to Africa every year to perform heart surgeries and transplants. Free. He has done so for decades. Frist has written a couple of books and served in the US Senate. . And dipshits on this thread have the gall to mock him.

I ♥ Willard said...

As I recall, Bill Frist determined that Terri Schiavo was responsive to visual stimuli by watching video footage. The autopsy discovered that Schiavo was, in fact, blind.

EMD said...

"Our society has let children down"?

We've stood idly by (for the most part) and let government for all their noble reasons, basically destroy the African-American family as it was once known.

We've created a no-fault, nearly responsible-less world where federal and state bureaucracy has replaced the traditional norms of community self-support and reliance.

So yes, society has let children down by abdicating its responsibility to its shared values.

Joe Schmoe said...

Oh my, this "Willard" poster has made me flustered by alluding to gay sex and Santorum! My monocle dropped straight into my snifter of brandy, splashing my John Birch newsletter!

Heart Willard, take note. This is how you write something funny.

shiloh said...

"Heart Willard, take note. This is how you write something funny."

No, that's just your common garden variety, disingenuous sarcasm which is spewed daily at Althouse.

It's actually a form of whining.