February 4, 2012

Milwaukee man with a concealed-carry permit shoots a robber in a store... but the store had a sign prohibiting weapons.

Should the man who stopped the robber be charged for bringing the weapon into the store? The DA has decided not to charge the man, Nazir Al-Mujaahid:
Fearing for the safety of himself, his wife and others in the store, he said, he unholstered his semi-automatic 9mm handgun, cocked it and kept it down at his side as he motioned another customer behind the robber to move away.

When the robber turned the shotgun toward him, Al-Mujaahid said, he fired six or seven shots from about 20 feet away. He said he hit the suspect in the leg and forehead. The robber then dropped the shotgun and bag, and fled the store....
(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)
[Al-Mujaahid] said he did not notice the sign at Aldi prohibiting weapons in the store, and that if he had, he would have gone elsewhere. He said since he began to carry a concealed gun, he has stopped from going into other businesses where he did see the sign.
Okay, now what is the effect of those signs? Are they meaningless when we're happy about the use of the gun?

From the comments at the link:
This person illegally carried a weapon into a public store which prohibits firearms. Now he want to be a hero? What a pathetic loser, fine example of why CC is a failed policy. The ends do not justify the means. Nazir should be happy he did not get killed himself.
NOTE: As a matter of the law on the books, it's defined as a crime to violate those "no weapons" signs, even if you have a concealed-carry permit.

202 comments:

1 – 200 of 202   Newer›   Newest»
TML said...

Hero.

Anga2010 said...

The signs are meaningless.

AJ Lynch said...

Is the sign just a request by a private party or is it legally binding in WI?

TML said...

BTW, what the effing douchebag idiot "commenter" fails to understand is that those signs (probably almost invisible in the clutter in a grocery store) just scream to felons, "Rob me!!!! No one in here will stop you!!!"

Asshole.

How he gets to the conclusion that CC is a "failed policy" is beyond me.

Ann Althouse said...

"Is the sign just a request by a private party or is it legally binding in WI?"

It's a crime.

Read the DOJ FAC: PDF.

There's this in the criminal statutes.

Class factotum said...

This person illegally carried a weapon into a public store which prohibits firearms.

And yet he seems unconcerned about the robber, who also violated the prohibition.

Anga2010 said...

OK, even after the update... The signs are meaningless [Full Stop]

The criminals won't honor the signs and the law-abiding citizens should not surrender their constitutional rights.

Ann Althouse said...

"those signs (probably almost invisible in the clutter in a grocery store) just scream to felons, "Rob me!!!! No one in here will stop you!!!""

That's a reason not to post the signs and for people to choose other stores. It's a market. The people who don't like CC can shop there and the people who do like CC (and who CC) can shop elsewhere. It's a big policy experiment.

Antillious said...

Interesting that the shop with a "No Guns" sign is the one getting robbed.

Makes one think.....

EDH said...

Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.

It must have been one of those "dumb-dumb" bullets.

I could'a had a V8!

Ignorance is Bliss said...

How he gets to the conclusion that CC is a "failed policy" is beyond me.

He doesn't get to, he starts from.

TML said...

Class factotum said:

And yet he seems unconcerned about the robber, who also violated the prohibition.

Excellent point. But the perp was probably from a downtrodden class of victim and therefore his actions are an excusable—if not commendable—reaction to the 1% reign of terror.

Big Mike said...

(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)

Or perhaps the would-be robber didn't have very much in the way of brains behind that forehead. But, yes, a 9mm is not much of a home defense weapon.

BTW, the guy fired "six or seven shots" from only twenty feet away, and he hit the guy only twice? If he was aiming at center of mass, then hits in the forehead and leg says a lot about Al-Mujaahid's need for a trip to the local firing range to practice.

David Blaska said...

The only answer is more and bigger signs. Proclaim the store a "Robbery-free Zone" while they're at it. As if criminals obey signs (if they can read them).

grackle said...

It would be nice to know, now that an armed citizen has foiled a robbery, whether the sign will stay posted in the store.

robinintn said...

I've been in an Aldi nearly every Saturday for the past 2 years, and never noticed such a sign. Of course, I live in Tennessee, so things may be different here. I'll have a look this afternoon.

I have to agree that posting a sign like that is just begging for a robbery.

It doesn't seem like the guy "wants to be a hero". It just seems like his actions made him one, even if he was doing something illegal as well.

30yearProf said...

I doubt he (or any other customer) even saw the sign. The signs in Wisconsin are very small and can be "hidden" anywhere.

In Minnesota they are 11x17, with LARGE print and must be posted at EACH entrance. They are big, they are ulgy, they deface the store's aesthetics, but they get the job done.

So well in fact that only anout 1/4of those put up in 2003 remain and the useal reason for removal is "they are nice people" and "I've lost too much business." No one shops at a store because of the sign but many won't shop there, even if unarmed, if they see a sign that says, in effect, we don't want your business. It is very easy to adjust your routine so you never enter a posted shop.

BTW, Target, Macys, Nordstroms, Home Depot, Lowes, K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Wells Fargo, US Bank, Sporting Authority, etc don't post. And do not have any problems.

Henry said...

What if the robber is smoking in a posted no-smoking zone? Then can you shoot him?

You can't? Sounds like a failure of no-smoking policy.

TML said...

Ann, you're right. It is a policy experiment. I'm sure you've heard about Starbucks' decision regarding CC? I'd bet they'll get quite a lot of applause for that and the press will tut-tut and cluck-cluck, pretending to be reasonable about it but trotting out a few "experts" who will note how dangerous guns are. Exactly.

Maguro said...

Either way, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

phx said...

BTW, the guy fired "six or seven shots" from only twenty feet away, and he hit the guy only twice? If he was aiming at center of mass, then hits in the forehead and leg says a lot about Al-Mujaahid's need for a trip to the local firing range to practice.

I'm going to guess that target shooting is a lot different than shooting a human being or being in a firefight.

Phil 3:14 said...

oh dear, Muslim gun owner. Which side to choose?

Roger J. said...

Damn--6 or 7 shots and basically missed? (and the forehead shot? a 9 mm in the forehead? and the perp runs away?) I commend Mr Nazir, but get thee to a shooting range, sir, and practice some more.

No one pointed out the sign at Aldi's did little to prevent the perp from carrying a shotgun into the store--those gun free zones are just so effective.

Roger J. said...

Heavens--20 posts preceding mine--clearly nearly everyone pointed out the signs inability to keep out the perp. And I was typing as fast as I could. Story of my life--day late and dollar short.

EDH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

I doubt he (or any other customer) even saw the sign. The signs in Wisconsin are very small and can be "hidden" anywhere.

I would expect that the size of the sign and its visibility may become an issue. I am no expert in this part of the law, but intent should be a required element of the offense, and a small or not too visible sign would seem to open the door to a lack of intent defense - i.e. he didn't know that it wasn't legal to carry there, and he can't be expected to have known that it wasn't legal beyond a reasonable doubt. Something like that (Ann maybe, or someone with more criminal law experience can probably correct me here).

Hagar said...

That, and a 9 mm is essentially a .38 and like a .38 comes in all kinds of power and bullet configurations.
A glancing hit along the forehead is not going to kill you even if the bullet is .500, while a .22 LR straight on will most likely kill you.

The Drill SGT said...

(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)

Rules for Gunfights

6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does
not start with a "4."

Big Mike said...

BTW, the guy fired "six or seven shots" from only twenty feet away, and he hit the guy only twice? If he was aiming at center of mass, then hits in the forehead and leg says a lot about Al-Mujaahid's need for a trip to the local firing range to practice.


Mike, I don't know if you've seen the statistics on the accuracy of Police in shootings , but it's not much better. all those 40 shots fired, 3 hits incidents :)

rules to remember. The Local did OK:

2.Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3.Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
7.In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
9.Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the weapon.

Dennis said...

A Class B forfeiture seems to be a pretty piddling deterrent -- just a fine up to $200.
http://www.mywisconsindefenselawyer.com/criminal-charges/

EDH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EDH said...

The interesting question, I think, is in tort law.

Can a premises owner be held liable for not having a sign, either because a robber brings a gun into the store to rob it and shoots somebody, or when a lawful CC holder uses one against a robber but hits a bystander?

In the first scenario I think the tort defense would be supervening criminal act.

But would a policy of nonexclusion make the owner responsible for the acts of those in possession of a weapon on premises even if they had no criminal intent?

ErnieG said...

Phil 3:14 said...

oh dear, Muslim gun owner. Which side to choose?


How do we know he's a Muslim? He has an Arab name, but around 50% of Arabs in the U.S. are Christians.

garage mahal said...

Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn.

JackOfVA said...

As I read it, the permit holder is subject to a "class B" forfeiture which seems to be a maximum of a $200 fine.

It's not that hard to put rounds through the 10 ring at 20 feet at the range, but most accounts of police shootouts show a surprisingly low percentage of hits.

Although a 9mm is derided as the "Europellet" and the like, I'm surprised it didn't do more damage.

My normal carry piece is a S&W 5 shot "Chief's Special" .38 special which would probably do less damage.

Anthony said...

In the absence of a statute, wouldn't it be up to the owner whether to press charges (for trespass?) against a person violating the rules posted on the sign?

Brad said...

why should the criminal be granted an exclusive franchise to break the law? Ask the store owner and customer which of these two lawbreakers they prefer?

Leon said...

to all those critical of his shooting ability and suggesting more time at the range...i would put it to you that having someone pointing a SHOTGUN at you changes things a bit.

Roger J. said...

As one who suggested more time at the range, I was not referring to marksmanship--I was referring to combat shooting which is not markmanship--point center of mass by simulating a body punch, and continue to pull the trigger until the target goes down or you run out of ammo. Combat shooting is NOT marksmanship--its an area fire technique.

dennymac said...

"Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn"

As opposed to a thug having a sawed off shotgun pointed at you!

The Drill SGT said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Drill SGT said...

Roger,

I coincidentally was watching "We were Soldiers" this morning. Sam Elliot as CSM Plumley is classic:

"Feels like a toy to me"
"sure you don't want an M16? Sir, if I need one, there will be plenty laying around"
"The are no noncombatants"
"Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves"

I'm sure we both have a nostalgia for the M1911A1 (the Army 45 Cal)

Shoot somebody with a 45 and they stay down...

Roger J. said...

Drill--you beat me to it--the M1911 is the finest close combat weapon ever made--and you are correct--hit a target anywhere and they go down. And I was never able to qualify with my .45 even though I tried for 12 years--marksmanship versus combat. The M1911A1 would be my personal weapon of choice

lewsar said...

if you have never shot a weapon, and especially if you have never shot a pistol, here's a fact: hitting what you shoot at is a lot harder than you expect. furthermore, as the range to the target increases, the likelihood of hitting said target decrease exponentially (this is based on personal experience, not any scientific study).

i'm ok with a rifle over either iron or scoped sights, but i can just barely hit the ground with a pistol.

hitting a person, from 20 feet away, twice with 6 or 7 shots is pretty typical from what i understand, and most likely better than i could do.

i agree that combat shooting practice would probably help, but actual combat shooting is much different from staged combat practice.

and i fully agree with the statement that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Roger J. said...

lewsar: re staged and actual: correct--adrenalin changes everything

The Drill SGT said...

lewsar said...
as the range to the target increases, the likelihood of hitting said target decrease exponentially (this is based on personal experience, not any scientific study).


Like lots of things, as the range increases the target dispersion area increases by the square of the range.

pst314 said...

Nothing makes me feel more enlightened than having a neonate fool firing multiple comments who can't hit the broad side of an adult thought.

edutcher said...

One wonders, if said miscreant was hit in the forehead, how he was able to leave said establishment under his own power.

Must have been next to no charge in the rounds.

The Drill SGT said...

(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)

Rules for Gunfights

6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does
not start with a "4."


The Blonde's philosophy.

She feels unarmed without both a .45 and a .22. The former is for stopping, the latter is for the coup de grace, if required.

And, no, I'm not kidding.

PS I believe the 9mm round is more akin to the .357 or the old .36 of Colt's Navy fame.

pst314 said...

"hitting what you shoot at is a lot harder than you expect."

Which is why even police officers can fire many rounds in a gun fight and have most of them miss. Practice, practice, practice. And anyone with a family and a life knows how easy it is to put off those practice sessions due to the pressure of many other duties.

The Drill SGT said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Drill SGT said...

She feels unarmed without both a .45 and a .22. The former is for stopping, the latter is for the coup de grace, if required.

And, no, I'm not kidding.

PS I believe the 9mm round is more akin to the .357 or the old .36 of Colt's Navy fame.


For those who are not versed in history, or perhaps Military History.

The M1911 45 caliber Pistol is the Army reaction to discovering at the turn of the 20th century that the service Army 38 caliber pistol did not consistently stop your average drug stoked Moro tribesman during a Philippine rebellion (1899-1913)

Your average meth addled armed robber? use a 45

Patrick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ice fisher said...

Having just completed the CCW course, we we're taught that in private businesses the signs are essentially meaningless. You must refuse to leave if you are directly asked before you get hit with criminal trespass.

Patrick said...

"Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn."

Not to be too "literal," but there is a hell of a difference between the proverbial barn and a bad guy.

Patrick said...

I'm fine with allowing those signs, but I do believe it is stupid to announce your lack of protection.

Is anybody surprised that the bad guy didn't just try to rob the place without his gun? There was a sign after all.

R_Shackleford said...

Handgun bullets are low-velocity affairs and almost all of them can and will glance off the glacis of the skull under the right conditions. The 9mm is no more susceptable to this than a .45, in fact a little bit less because the .45 is such a slow, wide and round bullet so this isn't a calber issue.

The point is to carry premium ammo in whatever caliber you are carrying. Something like Gold Dots or Ranger. Cheaping out on carry ammo is hella-stupid.

Also, these are handguns, not howitzers, be prepared to use the whole magazine.

And to finally add: The CCW'er should not have waited for the robber to turn around. Shooting a bad guy in the back or back of the head is perfectly acceptible tactics.

TWM said...

Even firing a 9mm, I find it hard to believe he hit the guy in the forehead and he walked away. Glancing hit off the top of the head (hairline) or his temple is more like it.

Still, God protects children and fools, so who knows.

As to his shooting skills. He needs to work on them, but shooting targets is a hell of a lot easier than shooting someone, even a low-life with a shotgun. It's not like in the movies folks.

Finally, as someone said, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so screw the sign. And screw the commenter who called him a pathetic loser. He'd be kissing the guy's ass if he had been in the store facing that shotgun. Hero? No, but a smart man for sure.

Locomotive Breath said...

"Hit in the forehead" could well describe a graze.

Dead Julius said...

(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)

Good to note! If I were to carry a weapon for personal protection, I would feel much more comfortable with something like this.

Okay, now what is the effect of those signs? Are they meaningless when we're happy about the use of the gun?

...

NOTE: As a matter of the law on the books, it's defined as a crime to violate those "no weapons" signs, even if you have a concealed-carry permit.


Mens rea, Professor? There ain't none of that here.

And Aldi's ought to make the sign bigger. If their lawyers are competent, they will tell them to.

I'm glad that the authorities didn't do anything rash because of the shooter's name. I think they might be more inclined to prosecute the dude if he lived in a more conservative area.

ice fisher said...

And since wisconsin is d "duty to retreat" state, I think shooting him in the back would change the prosecutors mind. The relevant statute is available at the wis doj web site. It is actually part of the application

The Drill SGT said...

R_Shackleford said...
And to finally add: The CCW'er should not have waited for the robber to turn around. Shooting a bad guy in the back or back of the head is perfectly acceptible tactics.



11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
11a. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan properly...

12. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or
tactics. They will only remember who lived.

edutcher said...

The Drill SGT said...

The M1911 45 caliber Pistol is the Army reaction to discovering at the turn of the 20th century that the service Army 38 caliber pistol did not consistently stop your average drug stoked Moro tribesman during a Philippine rebellion (1899-1913)

Her Majesty's forces had a similar experience in the Sepoy Mutiny and soon preferred the double-action .50 Tranter to the Navy .36.

Colt's revolver favored range and was prized on the Great Plains where the Indians had sense enough to fight from a distance. They were much more In-Your-Face in Inja.

Jay said...

Why anyone would buy or carry a 9MM is beyond me.

At least the guy made it out of this alive.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn.


Nothing makes me feel safer than a "No Guns Allowed" sign.

Andy Freeman said...

> I believe the 9mm round is more akin to the .357 or the old .36 of Colt's Navy fame.

Nope.

9mm has almost the same bullet diameter as .357 (9mm is .356) but the heaviest 9mm bullets are 140gr and are typically 124 while both .38 and .357 are typically 158gr.

I mention .38 special because .357 magnum is .38 special with a longer cartridge and the guns are designed to handle higher pressures, aka more velocity. Yes, one can shoot .38 special in a .357 gun but not the reverse.

The .357 case allows for considerably more powder than 9mm and typical loads have far more velocity than 9mm.

Lou Gots said...

It would help if someone--author, commenter, anybody--let us know the grading of the offense of carrying a gun in a store which is posted against it. A couple of comments lead me to believe that it is what we call in my state a "Summary Offense," what some other jurisdictions call an "Infraction," others a "Disorderly Person Offense." In other words, about a serious as a big traffic ticket, only without the points on your driver's license.

If that's all it is, then screw it. I scoff at such things. I would much rather write a $200 check to one than be carried by six. Anyway, they don't know I've got it unless I take it out: that's why they call it a "concealed" carry permit.

DWPittelli said...

"6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does
not start with a "4.""

Well, the .357 magnum in 125-grain jacketed hollow point has a better one-shot stop record than any other handgun round, and the 9mm does about as well as the .45, according to my rather dated copy of Handgun Stopping Power (Marshall & Sanow, 1992). Some new calibers have appeared since then, but I don't believe the 9mm or .357 has gotten any worse, or that the .45 has seen material improvement.

If anyone has real data on this need for larger diameter bullets, please refer me to it. But certainly the man walking away with a forehead wound was lucky to have received a glancing hit, not to be hit dead-on with a 9mm rather than a .45 or .40/10mm.

Cornroaster said...

"oh dear, Muslim gun owner. Which side to choose?"

I live in the Milwaukee area and will gladly choose the person who took the effort to get a CCW permit so he can carry while shopping over the thug who trys to rob a store with a shotgun. And it doesn't matter what the ethnicity or religion of the CCW permit holder happens to be.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn..."

Guess the shotgun carrying robber doesnt worry you eh.

ice fisher said...

Download the application at the wisconsin DOJ website. All the restrictions are posted there as part of the application.

Trespassing. That's it. And only if you refuse to leave.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... I'm glad that the authorities didn't do anything rash because of the shooter's name. I think they might be more inclined to prosecute the dude if he lived in a more conservative area..."

Yes because conservatives are notorious for prosecuting law abiding citizens who stop criminals.

You're about as stupid as garage and that takes some doing.

ice fisher said...

Tough for a 5'2" woman to conceal a 45 or .40/10.

Visible from the outside means visible to the perp

ice fisher said...

And, regarding the shot placement, you ever try hitting something with a 2 or 2 1/2 inch barrel and 8 lbs of DAO trigger pull?

mariner said...

garage,

I'd be worried about being inside a store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn.

Third Parasite said...

ALDI should have an action brought against it for failing to uphold the implicit guarantee established by its declaration that the store would be a gun-free zone. That's ultimately the consequence that should be pursued for stores that intend to strip licensed and otherwise-legal concealed carry citizens of their capacity to self defend, subsequently contractually exchanging that right for a guarantee of protection from gun crimes.

That ALDI failed to protect and ensure their store was free from the shotgun merits civil litigation, much akin to a factory failing to ensure its toxic waste doesn't spill into a creek. That another individual managed to stop the leak and clean the mess up when ALDI's self-declared contract wasn't upheld is ancillary given ALDI has neglected its contractual responsibility. Extensive social contract theory would likewise agree, suggesting that ALDI's irresponsibility and failure to protect relegated the store to a state of nature, where concealed carry was again permissible.

mariner said...

The Drill SGT,

How could you leave out his best line:

"Any of you sumbitches calls me 'grandpa', I'll kill ya."

R_Shackleford said...

the Army reaction to discovering at the turn of the 20th century that the service Army 38 caliber pistol did not consistently stop your average drug stoked Moro tribesman during a Philippine rebellThe M1911 45 caliber Pistol is ion (1899-1913)

Blackjack Pershing didn't have modern, high-velocity 9mm ammo that reliably expands to 62 caliber either. 9MM defensive ammo has advanced by light-years in consistancy of expansion in the past two decades alone and caused me to re-evaluate my preference of the 1911 as my pistol of choice. The NYPD has had superb results from 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dots fired from Glock 19's in recent years. A G-19 can carry 16 of these with factory standard mags vs 8 .45s in a 1911(9 if you use speciality mags that tend to be of questionable reliability).

Here is what Doctor Gary K. Roberts, the foremost terminal ballistician on the planet has to add to the issue:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Even firing a 9mm, I find it hard to believe he hit the guy in the forehead and he walked away. Glancing hit off the top of the head (hairline) or his temple is more like it.

Pistol calibers are weak affairs, be prepared to use the whole magazine. Ammo is cheap and you can buy more if you live. This is not the time or place to pinch pennies. If it is worth one round, it is worth the entire magazine.

Regardless of what calber you carry(and I recommend a .38 Special as the absolute minimum, not a .380), don't cheap out on the ammo, get professional instruction and then practice the correct techniques you learned at the above class. Seek instruction and don't attempt to self-train. This leads to unnecessary and difficult to remove training scars. A pistol, especially, is not forgiving of sub-optimal technique. They are a demanding platform to truly master.

ice fisher said...

No significant difference between the foot-pounds of a .380 and a 38 spl (can't speak to the +P stuff, if barrel lenth's are same.

mariner said...

Dead Julius,
And Aldi's ought to make the sign bigger. If their lawyers are competent, they will tell them to.

I doubt it; right now the situation is win-win.

They can point to the signs to pacify anti-human-rights leftists, while winking at decent citizens who ignore them.

The Drill SGT said...

R_Shackleford said...

Roger J and I are old farts... You are correct, but Don't tell us about new data...

what we know is that we used a 45 in combat and it worked and we walked away. They feel comfortable in my hand and I trust a 45. Don't give me (like Plumley) a class on these new toys... :)

The Drill SGT said...

mariner said...
The Drill SGT,

How could you leave out his best line:


It wasn't weapon related...

Eric said...

BTW, the guy fired "six or seven shots" from only twenty feet away, and he hit the guy only twice?

Might have been some adrenaline involved.

Michael The Magnificent said...

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/IV/52/1/b

939.52  Classification of forfeitures.
939.52(1) (1) Except as provided in ss. 946.86 and 946.87, forfeitures in chs. 939 to 951 are classified as follows:
939.52(1)(a) (a) Class A forfeiture.
939.52(1)(b) (b) Class B forfeiture.
939.52(1)(c) (c) Class C forfeiture.
939.52(1)(d) (d) Class D forfeiture.
939.52(1)(e) (e) Class E forfeiture.
939.52(2) (2) A forfeiture is a Class A, B, C, D or E forfeiture when it is so specified in chs. 939 to 951.
939.52(3) (3) Penalties for forfeitures are as follows:
939.52(3)(a) (a) For a Class A forfeiture, a forfeiture not to exceed $10,000.
939.52(3)(b) (b) For a Class B forfeiture, a forfeiture not to exceed $1,000.
939.52(3)(c) (c) For a Class C forfeiture, a forfeiture not to exceed $500.
939.52(3)(d) (d) For a Class D forfeiture, a forfeiture not to exceed $200.
939.52(3)(e) (e) For a Class E forfeiture, a forfeiture not to exceed $25.

Dead Julius said...

@mariner-

The managers might feel that way. But any lawyer who relies on a "winking" strategy deserves to be fired immediately.

Eric said...

A 9mm has more energy than a .45. No way a direct hit on the forehead from a 9mm at that range doesn't scramble the robber's brains. If the shooter wasn't using 25 year old ammo it was a graze.

Cedarford said...

I wouldn't get too down on this guy firing 6 shots and getting 2 hits.
A few years back, a group of trained law enforcement Heroes fired a little over 150 rounds at a car that refused to stop and appeared to try and run over a uniformed government Hero. Guns blazing, reloading (a few reloaded 3 times) the car stopped. Unarmed black guy, drunk out of his mind, shot once in the chest.

1 for 150 shooting.
Or 2 for 150, counting the deputy shot in the leg by another deputy in the crossfire. And another round holed the same deputy's trousers 1 inch below scrotum level without hitting him.

The shooting, BTW, was ruled justified despite the usual squeals from blacks and liberals - drunk+car=deadly weapon.

R_Shackleford said...

No significant difference between the foot-pounds of a .380 and a 38 spl (can't speak to the +P stuff, if barrel lenth's are same.

You can get much heavier bullet weight loads in the .38 and being a revolver, you can shoot bullet profiles that won't feed in an autoloader. The .30 is a better caliber for penetration than the .380 and first and foremost, you have to be able to hit the vital organs or the rest is pretty much academic.

And yes, quality +P ammo should be used in the .30 for defensive purposes.

They feel comfortable in my hand and I trust a 45.

I really do like the trigger on a 1911 but I also like being able to treet my daily carry piece like a lawnmower to qoute Ken Hackathorn.

Don't think all my Glocks are puny. My camping gun is a Glock 20 with 16 rounds of 10mm Black Bear repellent, tent defending goodness. The closest thing to an Ohio Class SSBN you can wear on your hip and not list to starboard.

ice fisher said...

No way a 9 has more energy than a 45.

R_Shackleford said...

Previous should read .38 where you see .30.

yoobee said...

@Eric

"A 9mm has more energy than a .45."

That is most definitely not true. A 9mm has more VELOCITY than a .45, but not more energy. The energy is also proportional to the weight of the bullet, and the .45 is substantially heavier than the 9 mm.

yoobee said...

Thank you Andy for pointing out the difference between the 9mm and .357 magnum. It frustrates me when people judge that one round is more powerful than another (or even "basically the same") based on the diameter of the bullet. They ignore the weight of the bullet and the powder load, which are ultimately more important in determining the round's stopping power.

yoobee said...

Sorry, I should clarify my first comment. There probably are some special brands of 9 mm ammo that have more energy than the average .45 round. But on average this is not true.

R_Shackleford said...

No way a 9 has more energy than a 45.

They are actually pretty close energy-wise but energy is not the way to think of a handgun round. Rifles tear shiz up and handguns poke holes. The game is to get the most amount of tissue destruction with a minimum penetration depth of 12 inches to ensure vitals are reached even from an oblique shot(FBI standard developed after the 1986 south florida shootout). Beyond that, more bullets are better than fewer. Read the link I posted a few posts up.

Handgun rounds work by poking holes in vitals and either disrupting the central nervous system(Brain and Spinal Column) or the circulatory system(destroying the main pump, the heart or causing a loss of blood).

Cybrludite said...

Regarding the 9mm: As many have already pointed out, the projectile is pretty close to the .38 Special & .357 Magnum. (.355" for 9x19mm, .380 ACP, .357 SIG, & .38 Super, .357" for .38 Special & .357 Magnum.) Performance-wise, 9x19mm is pretty close in "oomph" with the +P loadings of .38 Special. It always amuses me to hear folks trash-talk the 9mm while suggesting a .38 Special snubbie as being more than adequate.

Regarding shot placement & hits: When you get an adrenaline dump, your fine motor control goes out the window. Practice helps with this due to muscle memory. Even "Jelly" Bryce wasn't able to put every single shot on target. Again as others have said, ammo choice matters as well. If Mr. Al-Mujaahid was using round nosed Full Metal Jacket ammo, I could see it glancing if it hit at an odd angle (and it likely will hit at an odd angle. After all, the bad guy isn't going to be standing there like a B-27 silhouette target...) more easily than a hollow point. Surgeons & hunters will tell you that bullets can do weird things on impact. A cousin of mine who is an ER doc once told me about a guy who got shot in the forehead with a .45, and the bullet passed between the lobes of his brain doing little to no damage.

Skookum John said...

I assume you're being facetious. Muslim or no, he is a better American than many white Christians who were born here.

Kazinski said...

Good news for Walker in the run up to the recall. Of course 90% of the voter have already made up their minds, but this is exactly the sort of success in Walkers's policies that will make a difference to independent voters. And that is what will decide the recall effort.

Eric said...

Ack. Let me amend my statement to say "A 9mm can have more energy than a .45" depending on the ammo and range.

And yeah, I'm aware of the difference between velocity and energy.

ice fisher said...

Remington web site shows two bullet weights for the 45, 185 and 230 grain. In all cases the 185 has at least 10% more muzzle energy. ?more room for powder in the case?? In no case does a 9mm, either 115 or 124 come close.

Glock 20. Beautiful work of art. Might as well be trying to hide a frying pan. Too big.

Cybrludite said...

Yoobee, looking at the info on Federal's "American Eagle" brand of FMJ ammo for an apples-to-apples comparison:

Technical Information
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Weight: 124 Grain
Bullet Style: Full Metal Jacket
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 1120 fps
Muzzle Energy: 345 ft. lbs.


Technical Information
Caliber: 45 ACP
Bullet Weight: 230 Grain
Bullet Style: Full Metal Jacket
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 890 fps
Muzzle Energy: 369 ft. lbs.

So, about a 6% or so difference.

O2BNAZ said...

I don't understand why the ROBBER deliberately took a gun into a store that had posted a sign saying no guns allowed...I thought that was the idea behind the laws...

ice fisher said...

Ok. One loading approaches the 230 gr .45

Skookum John said...

Agreed. I carry mine anywhere there isn't a metal detector. I've been doing it long enough, and the gun is small enough, that no one will ever know I'm strapped until about half a second before I pull the trigger.

yoobee said...

Cyberludite,

Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that the .45 had substantially more energy than the 9, just that the 9 didn't have more energy than the .45.

edutcher said...

Andy Freeman said...

I believe the 9mm round is more akin to the .357 or the old .36 of Colt's Navy fame.

Nope.

9mm has almost the same bullet diameter as .357 (9mm is .356) but the heaviest 9mm bullets are 140gr and are typically 124 while both .38 and .357 are typically 158gr.


I meant diameter. The .357 originated when Colt converted its percussion revolvers - in this case, the Navy .36 - to cartridges in the mid-1870s.

Weight would be dependent on length and composition, no?

Skookum John said...

I hope you filed off the front sight, so it doesn't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your ass.

Cedarford said...

Eric said...
A 9mm has more energy than a .45. No way a direct hit on the forehead from a 9mm at that range doesn't scramble the robber's brains
================
Not quite true, 9mm is 323 foot-lbs force, vs. a .45 at 352. The difference is small, but the .45 is widely acknowledged to have more stopping power because all or most all of it's kinetic energy is transferred to to the target and massive tissue damage. A 9mm generally exits, doing less tissue damage because there is less bullet deformation and more KE retained in the exiting bullet.

But a "9 is just fine". Meaning you shoot better, more accurately than with a .45 unless you really train with the .45
You have more rounds with the 9mm, as well.

Cybrludite said...

Ice Fisher, that was generic practice/plinking ammo from a quality manufacturer, both loaded to standard velocities.

Personally, I prefer a 1911 in .38 Super loaded with Buffalo Bore's 124 grain hollowpoints. 1350 fps & 502 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.

phx said...

And once you miss suddenly YOU become the main target.

Skookum John said...

I thought the .357 dated from midcentury when police were dissatisfied with .38 Spl revolver performance but didn't want to go to automatics.

The Drill SGT said...

Energy, Msenergy....

It's not the energy of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle that matters.

a big wide bullet TRANSFERS more energy to the target and a skinny small bullet, that takes its bullet through the target and on for another half mile doesn't use the energy on the target.

X said...

For the ladies I'd recommend a SIG-Sauer .22 caliber Mosquito manufactured in Switzerland for their pussy police force. This two-toned lightweight model is perfect for skinny little things like you and can be regifted.

Eric said...

Not quite true, 9mm is 323 foot-lbs force, vs. a .45 at 352. The difference is small, but the .45 is widely acknowledged to have more stopping power because all or most all of it's kinetic energy is transferred to to the target and massive tissue damage.

After digging through some charts what I find is a much larger range in muzzle energies for .45 than I remember, from the relatively wimpy to the monstrous. See here.

As to the stopping power we're in full agreement. The .45 is going to do more damage. Though I'm still going to contend that with either weapon a direct hit on someone's forehead at 20 ft is going to end the firefight 99.9% of the time.

Eric said...

a big wide bullet TRANSFERS more energy to the target and a skinny small bullet, that takes its bullet through the target and on for another half mile doesn't use the energy on the target.

True, but... hollowpoints.

marylynn said...

Joining late here, so someone else may have already said something similar.
I own a supermarket in WI. Both our state association and our attorney advised us not to post a sign prohibiting guns, as we are then potentially responsible for enforcing that policy, as well as providing someone carrying a gun a safe, locked-up spot to store his or her gun while shopping.
Which i was glad to hear as i had absolutely no intention of posting a sign anyway. Somebody tries to rob my place, i would be grateful to a customer that had a gun and was willing to use it to protect himself and my other customers!

R_Shackleford said...

I hope you filed off the front sight, so it doesn't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your ass.

You talkin' to me Tex? What Part of 10mm don't you understand? 15 rounds of 10mm will take care of any Black Bear on the planet, it is just a bit less powerfull than a .44 Magunm when using full-house loadssimilar to the Norma loading.

Notice also i said black bear and not Griz. Still, the Glock 20 is the biggest selling civilian Glock in Alaska. Clue.

R_Shackleford said...

Glock 20. Beautiful work of art. Might as well be trying to hide a frying pan. Too big.

I open carry the 20 and I only take it into the back woods where I am more likely to see Bears than people. That said, it is not really much harder to conceal than a full size 1911.

Scott M said...

(I guess that says something about a 9mm handgun. Hitting the robber in the forehead seems to have merely changed his mind.)

I haven't read through the comments yet, so I'll assume someone covered this. A 9mm is deadly. A .38 is deadly. A .22 is deadly. But you have to hit your target square. A .45 hydroshock round can craze the skull just like any other.

Kudos to the CCW in this story. It sounds like he kept his head in a situation where a lot of people will freeze or freak. That doesn't mean he doesn't need a healthy increase in his range time, though. Possibly a defensing shooting class on top of whatever he had to do to get his cert.

DADvocate said...

Living in a spot where I can pretty much go out in my backyard and shoot whenever I want, I was surprised by the apparent lack of accuracy. But, the target was moving, the shooter probably shaking, etc.

I bought a 9mm because, after a fair amount of research, it's big enough and the ammo is cheaper than other guns of similar caliber. The forehead shot had to have been a graze. I can hit a gallon paint can 10 or 11 times out of 12 rounds (my clip size) consistently from 10 yards. Ain't no body walking away from that.

But, as I alluded to, real life is a lot scarier.

edutcher said...

Skookum John said...

I thought the .357 dated from midcentury when police were dissatisfied with .38 Spl revolver performance but didn't want to go to automatics.

They may have transferred to it then, but, and I'm going on memory from a book I got as a Xmas gift 50 years ago that didn't survive a move about 20 years ago, the original impetus was the conversion to cartridges.

Colt only made one of its double-action models, the Thunderer, in .38 in those days.

Scott M said...

Glock 20. Beautiful work of art. Might as well be trying to hide a frying pan. Too big.

I carry the 19 in a Crossfire holster. I can wear a dress shirt tucked in and it's difficult to see if you don't know what you're looking for.

Try to avoid being hugged by unsuspecting relatives at reunions though.

RebeccaH said...

If that idiot hadn't tried to rob the store, Mr. Al-Mujaahid could have peacefully concluded his shopping and left the store with nobody the wiser. As it is, he protected his family and the other customers, and I'm only sorry the robber was able to run away.

R_Shackleford said...

Folks, when attempting a head shot, you want to be aiming for the Ocular Box in front, the temple on the sides and the opposite side of the Ocular Box on the back. You should aim a bit below the forehead. Avoid the glacis of the skull as much as possible.

DADvocate said...

True, but... hollowpoints.

Yes. Cheap full metal jackets for practice, hollow points for self defense.

TmjUtah said...

Shortly after the National Unpleasantness in November 2008 it became impossible to buy .380 ammo at any price here in Utah.

.380? All the sage and respected pundits of gun geekery have dismissed .380 out of hand since before I graduated high school. "Purse gun", "pimp gun", "too weak", etc... The .380 cartridge is about comparable to the old .38 S&W but was designed from the get go to be used in small blowback operated semiautomatic actions.

Turns out that lots of people who needed guns but couldn't afford a nice .38 snubbie ended up buying .380's.

Most factory loadings reflect the industry experience that the vast majority of .380 pistols out there were made decades ago, and were likely purchased by people who don't shoot much and might not have taken very good care of their weapons. Until 2008 they just didn't sell much .380. So the industry produced rounds with enough energy to cycle most pistols but with a big safety margin for pressure. It is a low pressure cartridge to begin with and I am unconvinced that there are ANY effective hollow point loads from any factory source - effective meaning that they will actually mushroom to any worthwhile extent.

Rule one for gunfights has always been: BRING A GUN.

If you carry a .380 you better be able to hit center mass multiple times.

There are acres of new production .380's at my favorite shooting supply store, and they have pallets of ammo for them in back.

Good job that man. My arms get numb below the elbows if I let myself get surprised; fingers feel like bananas. Just for a second, but I have had it happen a couple of times. Again, good job that man.

Tully said...

The caliber geeks can argue forever, but the truth is that a CC weapon should be one you are comfortable shooting, or you won't practice. It also has to be reasonably comfortable to carry, or you won't have it with you when you need it. Bigger may be better on chart foot-lbs, but accurate shot placement under pressure trumps the ballistics of missed shots every single time.

As someone noted, when the adrenaline hits fine motor control goes bye bye. That leaves you with muscle memory and trained response. No practice, no muscle memory, no accuracy at all save by luck.

Q said...

You can get much heavier bullet weight loads in the .38 (than in 9mm)


Not really. 38's usually come in 110 to 158 grain bullets, while 9mm comes with 115 to 147 grains. There's not a big difference in typical bullet weights.

You can in theory get 200 grain rounds for your 38, but I've never seen anyone carry them.


being a revolver, you can shoot bullet profiles that won't feed in an autoloader.


Yup. Most people would be better off with a revolver, IMO.

Roger J. said...

Have to say I am impressed by the posters who know one heck of a lot about firearms--and here I thought firearms were something we werent allowed to talk about.

As Drill noted, we are two old farts, albeit with some combat experience using the M1911--While my military days are over, and I no longer own any firearm (except for my 28 double for bird hunting), when I was in harm's way, the 45 was my weapon of choice. I would suggest that ultimately it is kinectic energy that takes your target down--KE=1/2 the mass times velocity squared.

Anyway, I am very happy to see a number of well informed commenters discussing firearms, and the technical data supporting their cases.

Roger J. said...

I might rephrase my weapon of choice: actually it was the 105 millimeter cannister round mounted on a tank--Now THERE was an area fire weapon. The Mod 2 50mm Browning MG, was second, followed by the M2 "grease gun." When you had to use your .45 you were in deep shit--stand off keeps you alive in combat.

Eric said...

Folks, when attempting a head shot, you want to be aiming for the Ocular Box in front, the temple on the sides and the opposite side of the Ocular Box on the back.

I'll try to remember that when my heart is doing 160 beats/minute and the sweat is pouring off my palms.

Q said...

the .45 is widely acknowledged to have more stopping power


"Stopping power" is a myth, scientifically speaking. There is no formula which can calculate it.

All sorts of legends surround hand-gun cartridges, probably because they are so rarely used to actually kill anything. But common military rifle and hunting cartridges are in the .30 to .375 range, or 7.5 to 9.5mm. They don't seem to have gotten the message that the only good caliber starts with a "4".

Roger J. said...

Q: I respectfully disagree: Kinetic energy is how, IMO, stopping power should be evaluated, and that is simple calculation. Mass of the bullet coupled with muzzle velocity--
You want to overpower your threat with kinetic energy.

The Drill SGT said...

Roger J said....The Mod 2 50mm Browning MG, was second, followed by the M2 "grease gun." When you had to use your .45 you were in deep shit--stand off keeps you alive in combat.



um, Sir, the M3 Grease Gun. I never used it or carried it in combat, but when I fired it on the range, it was like watching a garden hose. I guess out of the loaders hatch shooting downhill, it would work :)

I'd rather have an M-16 carbine (aka M-4)

As for the 45, absolutely. drawn from a shoulder holster in the TC's hatch, I can't imagine anything better for defending the back deck or along side under the arc of the pintal MG's.

Carried a 45 in combat. Never an M3

Sir Lags Alot said...

"A 9mm has more energy than a .45. No way a direct hit on the forehead from a 9mm at that range doesn't scramble the robber's brains. If the shooter wasn't using 25 year old ammo it was a graze. "

I dunno. In my experience, I've seen a lot of bizarre things happen with bullets. I remember putting a baseball cap on a Tactical Ted and after a half-dozen rounds through the forehead, we saw one round glance off the brim. (Saw is a pretty strong word, but you could see the path on the brim the round took as it scraped by and deflected).

One of my instructors, and ex-SWAT guy out of DC told a tale about a 9mm round that hit a dude in the upper lip and was stopped by his teeth. The EMTs pulled it right out of that little dent underneath his nostrils.

The skull is designed to protect the brain and as a consequence, it's really difficult to get through it to the gooshy bits. So yeah, I can definitely understand a round glancing off of a rounded chunk of 1/4" thick bone.

The Drill SGT said...

Roger J. said...
Mass of the bullet coupled with muzzle velocity--
You want to overpower your threat with kinetic energy.


With respect, energy transferred to the bad guy with a big flat bullet, not raw energy...

As for studies, combat shooting is all about trust and confidence... Use what you trust.

The M1911A1 has a hundred years of trusting users :)

Roger J. said...

Drill--you are correct--it was the M3--it was manufactured by, yes, continental can company--had a magazine of 20 45 rounds which made it like really heavy--slow rate of fire. It was the weapon assigned to the loaders on a tank and was, I recall, designed to be used when you were dismounted and for perimeter protection.

I did carry my 45 in a shoulder holster--but I figured putting a bit more armor proection over my heart and lungs had its own value.

Roger J. said...

Drill--BTW: how is the Mrs Drill doing now that she is no longer in harms way? Hope things are going well

Eric said...

One of my instructors, and ex-SWAT guy out of DC told a tale about a 9mm round that hit a dude in the upper lip and was stopped by his teeth.

Mmmmmmmaybe. At 20 ft, though?

The Drill SGT said...

Roger J. said...
It was the weapon assigned to the loaders on a tank and was, I recall, designed to be used when you were dismounted and for perimeter protection.


What it was, was even cheaper to make than a Sten, and impossible to jam with dirt or abuse. that 3-4 pound bolt sliding back and forth....

sitting on the clamp in the turret without cleaning for weeks, but when needed, unjammable.

as for Mrs Drill (aka Col JAG)), she's slowly weening herself out of worry about her old command. Doing more weekend cooking....

Q said...

With respect, energy transferred to the bad guy with a big flat bullet, not raw energy...


Energy transfer is a function of energy available to be transferred (aka the kinetic energy) and the bullet profile. Hollowpoints are better at energy transfer than flat section bullets.

The amount of energy contained in any handgun bullet is negligible compared to the mass of the human body. 100% energy transfer will not, by itself, do much of anything. After all, the same energy is transferred to the shooter as to the target.

The big change is ammo over the last couple of decades has been in the bullet. It's now possible to "tune" them to give the degree of penetration desired.

In the (in)famous 1993 Miami shootout the FBI agents 9mm ammo was "tuned" to give 10 inches of penetration, to reduce the risk of overpenetraton and injury to bystanders. It worked exactly as it was supposed to. But in a CYA exercise the feds blamed the outcome on their bullets, leading to the legend that the 9mm is inadequate.

Roger J. said...

good to know, drill, she will have sufficient time to civilize you:)

Please, if you would, thank her for her service to her country. Means a lot to me.

Attila of Argghhh! said...

From a purely practical standpoint, as a former attack pilot, when on an armed reconnaissance sortie, I would ALWAYS attack the undefended targets first.

Call me crazy, but knowing they didn't have much in the way for self-defense sure made MY job easier.

Cornroaster said...

Marylynn said, "Joining late here, so someone else may have already said something similar.
I own a supermarket in WI. Both our state association and our attorney advised us not to post a sign prohibiting guns, as we are then potentially responsible for enforcing that policy, as well as providing someone carrying a gun a safe, locked-up spot to store his or her gun while shopping.
Which i was glad to hear as i had absolutely no intention of posting a sign anyway. Somebody tries to rob my place, i would be grateful to a customer that had a gun and was willing to use it to protect himself and my other customers!"

I will speak to my State Senator urging that the law be amended so that businesses may post signs that state, "Concealed Carry Permit holders are welcome in our place of business. Weapons are not allowed by those who do not have permits." That way, an unlicensed robber could be charged with bringing in a weapon, but someone with a CCW permit could not.

Roger J. said...

Atilla--judging from your avator you flew the warthog--wonderful ground attack aircraft but flying them where you did interjected a fair amount of risk in your missions. Thanks

Michael said...

What a great country! Awesome to read ballistics talk on a blog. Lefties seem quiet on this topic. For once there is no easy slur.

JustOneGroup said...

FWIW, he did in fact shoot the robber in the forehead:

"Cotton suffered a gunshot wound to his leg and a graze wound on his head [clearly visible in mug shot]. So Hibbler drove him to St. Joseph’s Hospital for treatment.

When police questioned Cotton, the complaint says Cotton needed the money “to pay for school.” He told officers he used the gun in the robbery to scare people — that it was not loaded."

So the 9 outperformed the unloaded shotgun.

Tom Maguire

R_Shackleford said...

Not really. 38's usually come in 110 to 158 grain bullets, while 9mm comes with 115 to 147 grains. There's not a big difference in typical bullet weights.

I was comparing the .380 to the .38, not the 9mm. The .380 is not the same as the 9mm.


I'll try to remember that when my heart is doing 160 beats/minute and the sweat is pouring off my palms.

The point is not to remember it, the point it to train for it so you can do it subconsciously under stress. I use IDPA targets for training. It has the ocular box faintly engraved into the cardboard of the head area. It is an area roughly the size of an index card. I practice shooting it as far back as 15 Yards so If I ever need to shoot someone at bad breath distances, it becomes a easy shot even accounting for the doubling of group-size under stress. This is not a shot I recommend for the lightly-trained or the untrained.

It takes good instruction, quality training, and the discipline and commitment to frequently practice even if it means trudging to the range when it is under two feet of snow to achieve that level of accuracy on demand to consistantly make such a low-proabability shot. Most people are better off aiming for center mass.

R_Shackleford said...

I will speak to my State Senator urging that the law be amended so that businesses may post signs that state, "Concealed Carry Permit holders are welcome in our place of business. Weapons are not allowed by those who do not have permits."

Just make it no unliscensed carry of weapons on these premises.

Len said...

sIf memory serves, Aldi fires managers who get robbed. Here we go: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1907&dat=19960507&id=Q98xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zWgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2887,352141

shu said...

OMG. A Caliber War at Althouse. Gentlemen! Please! (And ladies.) Take the arguement over to TFL or THR.

shu said...

OMG. A Caliber War at Althouse. Gentlemen! Please! (And ladies.) Take the arguement over to TFL or THR.

Paul said...

Ann,

I'm in Texas, were EVERYONE has a gun, and being a CHL holder since the CHL law went into effect and having expert ratings in all IDPA classifications (and A ratings in IPSC) and been in two altercations, one where I had to draw my gun but not fire.


I can say it's not so easy drawing and shooting a man who has a shotgun swinging toward you.

I have no doubt Mr. Al-Mujaahid was not expecting a robbery and when he drew he jerked the trigger and shot the first shot low (and into the leg... bet that hurt!)

He still did well. Saved his family and stopped the robbery!!

He is welcome at my table anytime.

As for the caliber war, that is stupid as heck. Fight'en is more in the guts you have than the equipment you carry. I'm far more interested in how good you can shoot than what exact piece you carry.

TmjUtah said...

I could always get more done with a cup of coffee in one hand and a sound powered phone connected to the gun line in the other than I ever cold with a pistol, but they just don't make comfortable holsters for an artillery battery (reinf).

I carry either 9mm or .45, depending on the season and sometimes the threat.

mikee said...

Down here in Texas we have no legal open carry of handguns, only licensed concealed carry (plus of course criminals carrying).

We also have in the Texas legal code a very specific signage requirement for businesses to opt out of allowing licensed concealed carry of handguns on their premises, including placement of signage, exact sign wording, sign letter size (1" tall letters) and color (must be high contrast).

That said, my local credit union has a sing on its front door consisting of a handgun silhouette with a red "circle + bar" over it, supposedly meaning "No Guns!" This sign has no force of law in Texas. It is like a smiley face on the front door, meaning nothing but making CHL-ignorant people feel better.

I asked the credit union manager about the signage, and she replied that the sign was required by the facilities manager from HQ. She then told me that many of her staff had CHLs and had asked the same thing. The sign really is posted just to make anti-gunners feel better, while not putting any obstacles in the way of licensed, legal, law abiding gun owners to carry concealed in that business.

Hey, maybe you should consider changing the law in your winter wonderland to match what we have here in Texas.

Carol_Herman said...

Well, the DA didn't charge him.

Plus, he's now got "blood samples" ... which can be used as DNA markers. Or even better! The DA could ask the police to see if anyone has gone to the hospital who got treated for bullet holes.

I guess, too, since the robber got away ... AND, he reads this. He knows it is much less likely, next time, for any customers to have a concealed gun.

Maybe, other customers will stay out of that store, too? What's a sign worth ... if you lose customers?

Beto_Ochoa said...

The only way for a private citizen to prepare for combat is to visit a #Occupy Camp.

damikesc said...

Nothing makes me feel safer shopping with my family than having a newly permitted handgun owner firing multiple rounds inside the store who can't hit the broad-side of a barn.

I find it amazing how frequently gun free zones tend to be the site of massacres.

It's astonishing that laws against murder don't stop murderers --- but there is a belief that laws against having a gun will shut them down.

Quite logical.

Darren Duvall said...

His hit percentage is between 28 and 33%. Average for police officers is 20% at an average range of 7 feet. He did pretty well considering he was facing another armed person instead of a paper silhouette.

Cedarford said...

Perhaps it is salutory to note that the bullet round that has killed more people in crime and self-defense situations in America for sure and highly likely globally is the .22 LR round.

The 9mm is catching up, though.

If you count warfare, the modern bullet round that has sent the most souls to Jesus or Allah is likely the:

8mm (7.92) Mauser round. At one time, every modern European Army save France and England had them plus all sorts of other nations that bought them in the tens of millions and used them (turks, Chinese, Japanese pre-WWII- in every conflict up through WWII. Still in the arsenal in several 3rd world countries. The perfect bolt action rifle. And also used as a lethal machine gun round.

Next?

.303 Enfield. (another global killer in use a long time in all the megawars)
then the
7.62 X 39 AK47 round

purplepenquin said...
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purplepenquin said...
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purplepenquin said...
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purplepenquin said...

I have mixed feelings about the "no weapons allowed" signs. On one hand, if a property-owner/business doesn't want whatever coming through their doors then they should be allowed, for the most part, to not allow it on the premises. (I really wish there were as many businesses...especially restaurants...that didn't allow cell phones as there are that don't allow weapons!)

On the other hand, if one is so concerned about their personal safety that they are carrying on a regular basis then I wouldn't blame 'em at all for subscribing to the "It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" theory.

Keystone said...

A friend in Racine has advised me that the two perps have been arrested upon going to the hospital.

Big Mike said...

I agree with everything Shakleford says above, except for the quibble that the .380 certainly is a 9mm round. The Germans call it the 9mm "kurtz" (short) because the cartridge is shorter than then normal 9mm and doesn't pack much gunpowder.

DWPittelli said...

"You can get much heavier bullet weight loads in the .38 (than in 9mm)"

For most handgun rounds, the more effective options are lighter and faster bullets than the standard ball round.

"After all, the same energy is transferred to the shooter as to the target."

No, the shooter gets the same Momentum as the bullet. Momentum = mass * velocity, but kinetic energy = mass * (velocity squared). So if the gun weighs 100 times more than the bullet, the energy dump into your hand or shoulder is 1/100 of the energy of the speeding bullet.

DWPittelli said...

""Stopping power" is a myth, scientifically speaking. There is no formula which can calculate it."

Actually the formula:
Stopping Power is proportional to kinetic energy * recovered bullet diameter (i.e., recovered from ballistic gelatin) predicts 90% of the variability in handgun performance as measured by one-shot stops in Marshall & Sanow's database (1992).

"All sorts of legends surround hand-gun cartridges, probably because they are so rarely used to actually kill anything."

Marshall & Sanow analyzed thousands of shootings as of 1992, and continued to do so afterwards.

"But common military rifle and hunting cartridges are in the .30 to .375 range, or 7.5 to 9.5mm. They don't seem to have gotten the message that the only good caliber starts with a "4"."

Rifle rounds typically have velocities 2 or 3 times faster than handgun rounds, meaning 4 or 9 times more kinetic energy for a given bullet weight. (But I agree that calibers do not need to start with a "4" -- indeed, the .357 is the most effective handgun round.)

Rusty said...

PS I believe the 9mm round is more akin to the .357



Not even close.

Orion said...

Lots of discussion about caliber (I'm a .45ACP elitist - too many stories of people walking away from 9mm hits).

Lots of discussion about range time and accuracy.

Only one thing matters: Bad guy lost. Good guy won. His accuracy and choice of caliber got the job done this time.

As an added bonus, he's much more likely to improve both for the next time, making him even MORE likely to save the day then. And many more people will read about a CCW holder saving the day and THEY will get training and armed.

The bad guy gets a migraine and a nice cell.

Win-win.


Orion

R_Shackleford said...

Marshall & Sanow

Have been so discredited it ain't even funny. They got caught faking data.

SwiftFallHunter said...

Ref the guy getting shot in the upper lip by a 9mm round and the round was stopped by his skull. True story. But it happened in Iraq. I saw the photo and read the writeup. It was a US Army infantryman shot at close range by an Iraqi insurgent (late 2003 or early 2004). The infantryman stated he felt something hit him in the face but when the Iraqi saw his still standing, the insurgent dropped his weapon and surrendered. The infantryman didn't realize he'd been shot until he returned to base. The bullet struck him in his mustached under the right nostril. Divine intervention, defective round, strong skull? In any case, a fortunate man.

R_Shackleford said...

I agree with everything Shakleford says above, except for the quibble that the .380 certainly is a 9mm round. The Germans call it the 9mm "kurtz" (short) because the cartridge is shorter than then normal 9mm and doesn't pack much gunpowder.

It ain't a Parabellum/Luger. I was discussing the .38 Special vs the .380 ACP. Somebody straw-posted 9mm for .380 which I was NOT discussing. Anybody with a scintilla of brain cells reading my posts would have read that my daily CCW was a G-19 with 124gr+p Gold Dots. So much for being a 9mm hater.

Ballistically, the .380 has penetration issues and does NOT reliably penetrate the FBI minimum 12 inches. The (MM Para is a far better round in this regard.

Kirk Parker said...

ice fisher,

ice fisher,

Duty to retreat or no, if the bad guy is already threating someone else with deadly harm, that changes everything.

But your take on the actual legal meaning of the sign is interesting: "Trespassing. That's it. And only if you refuse to leave. " That's about as close to meaningless as you can get, then--a concealed carrier can ignore the sign, leave when asked to, and there's no further action? No worse than the situation here in WA, which doesn't even have a statute about posting at all.

ice fisher said...

Interestingly no. Despite the wording of the law, Our instructor made it quite clear. Better to stand by and let someone get bludgeonned that to intervene.


Don't think I could do that. Hope the prosecutor agrees.

ice fisher said...

And yes. Trespassing.

It gives the business owner a mechanism for filing a complaint. That's it.

R_Shackleford said...

Interestingly no. Despite the wording of the law, Our instructor made it quite clear. Better to stand by and let someone get bludgeonned that to intervene.

Most states allow the use of deadly force to stop a forcable felony.

ice fisher said...

Discretion of the prosecutor. There is duty to retreat

Like I said, I think I could not do that (I've seen a person get clocked repeatedly), but it is what it is.

Someone said "stand your ground" has been proposed....

Michael McNeil said...

As for whether women should concealed-carry 22 calibers, this article on concealed carry myths says no: they should wield bigger guns.

And how can a “girl” carry a bigger gun? This video explains how to carry a full sized pistol while wearing a skimpy slinky dress.

Ht: Instapundit, for both.
Wv: protool

ic said...

"This person illegally carried a weapon into a public store which prohibits firearms. Now he want to be a hero? What a pathetic loser, fine example of why CC is a failed policy. The ends do not justify the means. Nazir should be happy he did not get killed himself."

Since "ends do not justify the means", the moronic commentor will be happy to get killed by a robber with a shotgun than be saved by a "pathetic loser" who missed a store sign.

Btw,Nazir carried a weapon legally. He made the mistake of entering a store that asked to be robbed.

MrEddy said...

Interestingly enough it appears that they'd done it before. I wonder if CVS and Radio Shack had similar signs. "The charges are not only for the incident at the Aldi store. They’re also from an armed robbery at a CVS store in Milwaukee on January 4th and a Radio Shack in Wauwatosa on January 19th."

TmjUtah said...

Utah has no duty to retreat.

Neither does the jungle, which is where we all live.

There is no moral imperative for a citizen going about their lawful business to retreat in the face of unlawful actions on the part of another individual, or group. None.

The fact that so many jurisdictions have cravenly adopted ordinances embracing such antiethical, illogical, and cowardly tenets is a damning blinking light on the fault panel of the republic.

We live in sad damned times. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

Kirk Parker said...

ice,

Wait--are you saying WI has absolutely NO provision in the law for lawful defense of others? Great Ghu, how barbaric! I hope you're just misinformed about that.

While we're waiting for a reply, consider this that we (and also your CC instructor) may actually be talking about two different things. Self-defense instructors nationwide rightly caution against carelessly intervening in third-party stranger situations (i.e. you come across an assault in progress) because you don't always know who the actual bad guy or instigator is! (This is one of the reasons that police have a much worse shoot-the-wrong-party record than the CC licensees, the police often are expected to intervent in such situations.) The prototypical case of this is an undercover officer who carries no visible distinguishing marks (duh!) being set-to by someone he's dealing with; the police themselves occasionally shoot their fellow officers in such situations.

So if you come upon an unclear situation, it probably is best not to intervene until you can be sure your'e doing so on the right side.

But my point to you was about something different: at what point is the duty-to-retreat overcome by lawful defense of others; a scenario with customers standing in line at a cash register when an armed robber appears and pulls out a shotgun is not usually one of those hard-to-tell-who's-the-assailant type scenarios.

ice fisher said...

Kirk:

The law states you ARE allowed to defend a third party IF that person had a right to self defense in the first place ie, did't instigate, couldn't retreat, was at risk of great bodily harm.

So yes, you can defend, but you had best be able to judge the scenario. It comes down to the reasonnable person test at this point. And the whim of a prosecutor.

ice fisher said...

TmjUtah:

it's infinitely better than what we had.

Can't wait to see the next NYT/ WaPo article bemoaning the fact that they can't figure out why violent crime keeps dropping despite the economy.../s

Carnifex said...

What is the law concerning open carry in WI? Just yesterday, my wife saw a guy carrying open here. Made her mad for some reason. I myself carry open when I deem it necessary. Her son goes all the time open carry(it's an open carry state).

Ps. I watched the '86 south Florida shooting on the news, sold my 9mm the next day and never looked back. Had 2 1911's till I traded one for a H%K USP. My remaining 1911 has been tuned and accurized, and is the best shooting pistol I ever had.

Michael The Magnificent said...

As a Wisconsin CCW holder who could face a similar scenario, it would be helpful to know:

1) Which laws Nazir Al-Mujaahid violated
2) Privileges and immunities granted him, given the circumstances
3) Potential penalties faced
4) Prosecutorial discretions given

As I see it (ianal), Al-Mujaahid violated 943.13(1m)(c)2 by carrying into a posted building. He is not privileged with any exceptions. The potiential penalty is a Class B forfeiture.

Al-Mujaahid also violated 941.20 (Endangering safety by use of dangerous weapon). However, he has a defense of privilege of self-defense or defense of others in accordance with 939.48. Given this privilege, there are no potential penalties.

However, does Al-Mujaahid have a statutory duty to retreat? If you search the WI statutes for the word "retreat" it looks as though the duty to retreat is only implied, and not actually spelled out anywhere.

AllenS said...

What determines a legally binding sign designating a building to be weapons free?

Notice can be verbal or via a sign posted in a prominent place near all of the entrances to the part of the building to which the restriction applies

Would a sign printed in 5 pt. type be legal? Should the signs be printed in Spanish also? Shouldn't a sign be printed in the language of Nazir Al-Mujaahib?

[Al-Mujaahid] said he did not notice the sign at Aldi prohibiting weapons in the store

Would a stop sign 3 inches tall posted at an intersection be considered legal?

For those who say that this man was a lousey shot, let me just say that when you are shooting someone, they have a tendency to jerk and to try and evade the lead coming their way. Lessons learned.

Richard Fagin said...

This may be useful in sorting out the discussion. How it would play out in Texas is pretty clear:

[TEXAS PENAL CODE] Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that:

(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or

(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.


...as Bella Oxmyx once said, "The Book tells us howta handle these things."

Richard Fagin said...

Special bonus for anyone who can identify Bella Oxmyx.

DWPittelli said...

R_Shackleford: "Marshall & Sanow Have been so discredited it ain't even funny. They got caught faking data."

I think it would be fairer to say that there are two major schools of thought on ammunition effectiveness, and it is unclear that, e.g., Fackler has a more accurate description of wound effects than do Marshall & Sanow. See, e.g., http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

ice fisher said...

Gary Oldman

Lou Gots said...

A thread that would not die.

Some commenters are positing a "duty to retreat. State laws will vary. Our state, before it adopted a strong Castle Doctrine law, which included a "Stand your Ground" provision, would have required that one asserting self defense when not in his own residence or place of business, must retreat before using deadly force IF HE COULD DO SO WITH COMPLETE SAFETY.

In practice, this meant no duty to retreat form an attacker with a gun. Look at the facts here:

"When the robber turned the shotgun toward him, Al-Mujaahid said, he fired six or seven shots from about 20 feet away."

a load of buckshot goes, maybe, 1400 fps; no one thinks our righteous shooter here could run that fast. Pointed shotgun at 20 feet, duty to retreat? Don't be silly.

Mike_P said...

Fagin,

I could tell you but I would want a piece of the action and a bowl of Mel's Chili.

I am getting up a bunch to play card games, I am partial to Fizbin.

Michael The Magnificent said...

I swear I posted a reply to your comments earlier. Must have gotten lost in the ether. Try #2...

"When the robber turned the shotgun toward him, Al-Mujaahid said, he fired six or seven shots from about 20 feet away."

a load of buckshot goes, maybe, 1400 fps; no one thinks our righteous shooter here could run that fast. Pointed shotgun at 20 feet, duty to retreat? Don't be silly.

Earlier accounts had Al-Mujaahid see the robbers, draw his pistol from his holster but keep it at his side, motioning to other patrons to get back and out of the way (presumably to clear a shooting lane), and then begin shooting at the robber(s) from 20 feet away once the robber (presumably seeing his pistol) swings the shotgun towards his direction.

I fully support what Al-Mujaahid did, but a prosecutor could argue that if Al-Mujaahid had enough time to draw to his side and motion others to get out of the way, he would have had enough time to step backwards and retreat instead.

While I can find statutes implying I have a duty to retreat, I cannot find any WI statute which states that flatly. I have also read that judges can and do instruct juries that we DO have a duty to retreat. As well, I have read that appeals courts will uphold convictions with those jury instructions (Wisconsin v Wenger).

As a WI licensed CCW holder, I really do want to know if I have an unwritten duty to retreat under similar circumstances, or if I can instead stand my ground as it appears Al-Mujaahid did.

Lou Gots said...

@Michael the Magnificent:

I have no opinion whatsoever as to what Wisconsin law may be of a duty to retreat.

In my jurisdiction, there is the duty to retreat is predicated on the actor being able to do so "with complete safety," which is never the case when one is threatened with a gun.

Another factor is whether the actor is without blame in provoking or continuing the difficulty which led to his use of deadly force. What I am seeing here is a suggestion that our righteous shooter may be at fault because if he had simply run away and hidden instead of standing up to help his neighbors in trouble, the robber would not have pointed his shotgun at him and he would not have had to shoot in self defense. Te principle of use of force in defense of others justified him standing his ground, which absolved him of fault for the robber throwing down on him.

No one could tell you exactly how the police and D.A.'s could react to this case, so there is always potential legal exposure. In my state, it would be very rare for a case like this to be prosecuted. The way this was reported in the press suggests that somebody, probably the police, has already come down on the righteous shooter's side.

My criminal law experience, both sides of the aisle, as they say, suggests that the respective characters and reputation of the parties are big factors in police/prosecutorial evaluation of situations like this. It was "Good-guy" versus "@$$hole," so the police wrote it up to favor the Good-guy.

Sir Lags Alot said...

"Mmmmmmmaybe. At 20 ft, though?"

Yeah, 20ft. That shot off the hat brim was at 7 yards. Bullets do funny things.

Sir Lags Alot said...

"The infantryman didn't realize he'd been shot until he returned to base. The bullet struck him in his mustached under the right nostril. Divine intervention, defective round, strong skull? In any case, a fortunate man. "

Dude made his saving throw. :)

Michael The Magnificent said...

What I am seeing here is a suggestion that our righteous shooter may be at fault because if he had simply run away and hidden instead of standing up to help his neighbors in trouble, the robber would not have pointed his shotgun at him and he would not have had to shoot in self defense.

I happen to agree with what he did. However, I am suggesting that I live in Wisconsin, which has a different legal environment than in your jurisdiction.

The prosecuting attorney might argue the suggestion you've provided. And the judge might instruct the jury that he had a(n unwritten) duty to retreat, which has happened in the past. And the appeals court might refuse to overturn on that jury instruction, which has also happened in the past. Resulting in our righteous shooter going to prison.

If judges can give bullshit instructions to the jury, with the appeals court giving it a pass, I think I want to know that BEFORE having it explained to me by my criminal defense attorney.

Kirk Parker said...

MagniMichael,

Or, you might luck out and draw Judge Hansher, and he'll throw your case out--unless you shot a cat, of course.

John Clifford said...

I don't see how the 'no guns' law can be constitutional. What if it said 'no blacks' instead? The correct venue for private property owners who don't want legally armed customers is civil court. File a lawsuit for damages, but keep criminal law out of it.

Re the shooter's actions, he did better than most untrained individuals by getting a couple of hits. Re 9mm, the forehead 'shot' must have been a grazing wound, probably as the robber turned. Re combat shooting being area firing, what a load of crap! You can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight. As Bill Jordan wrote, take your time, quickly... but get the front sight on your target and press the trigger, and keep shooting until you are certain the threat has been eliminated.

wv: halin, as in 'it needs to be halin lead!'

CatDoc said...

I own a business in WI.

Can I post a sign at the entrance that says, "You must be able to hit a pie plate at 10 feet to carry a firearm in this business"? Then post one of my own target groups labelled "Business Owner at 60 feet"?

Kudos for clearing out innocents on the other side of the gunman and further for hitting his target.

If the shotgun was truly unloaded, why was it swung around towards a new target who started shooting? If the criminal knew it was unloaded, there would be no point in standing your ground against someone firing actual lead at your actual guts.

Was the robber trying to get money for CCW school? He could have sold his shotgun for school money... unless of course the plan was to keep using the shotgun to steal.

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