February 16, 2012

"Baad involves giving a young woman, often a child, into slavery and forced marriage."

"It is largely hidden because the girls are given to compensate for 'shameful' crimes like murder, adultery and elopement...."
The strength of the traditional justice system and the continuing use of baad is a sign both of Afghans’ lack of faith in the government’s justice system, which they say is corrupt, and their extreme sense of insecurity. Baad is most common in areas where it is dangerous for people to seek out government institutions. Instead of turning to the courts, they go to jirgas, assemblies of tribal elders, that use tribal law, which allows the exchange of women.

48 comments:

rhhardin said...

The exchange of women is what's missing from corporate mergers these days.

rhhardin said...

Word verification has gotten distinctly more difficult.

Skyler said...

The most sinful part of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has been the farce that we were helping them in any way.

I have no problem helping Iraqis. But I have a different desire for Afghanistan. They are the ones that attacked us, or allowed Al Qaeda to attack us and were unapologetic.

Be that as it may, if we are going to do more than just punish them and we install a government, then we have a moral responsibility to bring them the Bill of Rights.

Jirgas are fine, so long as they recognize individual sovereignty. That they don't and we still support them is why we will eventually lose the war against fundamental Islam. At a basic level, this war is a war of philosophy or ideas. If we can't disagree with their ideas, then we will lose. They will never agree with our ideas, unless we destroy them.

Mark O said...

Let's make a deal.

Michael Haz said...

Don't count on help from American feminists.

n.n said...

The sins of the father are visited upon the daughter.

It sounds like a "progressive" principle. It is commonly exploited in America.

edutcher said...

We may end up with something like that here, what with selective abortion, and such.

rhhardin said...

Word verification has gotten distinctly more difficult.

If you have the old Character Map applet, hang onto it.

ricpic said...

Government justice in most of the 3rd world depends totally on which tribe you belong to. There may be justice for you in a government court if your tribe is the government. If not? Suicide. You stand a far better chance at a disinterested hearing in your own tribe's jirga.

Partridge said...

If we can't disagree with their ideas, then we will lose. They will never agree with our ideas, unless we destroy them.

A more open endorsement of genocide methinks I have never heard.

traditionalguy said...

So women get traded among tribes like baseball players. This may cut down on incest damages to gene pools.

But nobody tell them that women in combat are a possibility. That would be like arming the deer in hunting season.

What about us blind commenters' rights. I must qualify as blind doing WVs by hunches only.

BarrySanders20 said...

Partridge,

I think "them" refers to "ideas," not people.

I have to agree with Skyler. Forcing modernity and decency on stone-agers was always a fools errand. We should have searched and destroyed those we could identify as responsible, and then withdrawn, keeping watch to revisit as often and violent as needed.

Holmes said...

Just another part of the rich fabric of diversity in the world around us.

William said...

When we leave Afghanistan, it will be a disaster for the women living there. I have yet to read of any feminist who supports our continued presence there.

Alex said...

Aint diversity grand?

Partridge said...

I think "them" refers to "ideas," not people.

Well thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to wonder just where (or when) in the world I was.

The rest of the point we can debate. But I won't do in a forum originally about the practice of Baad. That would be a lot like trying to discuss the pros and cons of Federalism in a forum about abortion.

Revenant said...

A more open endorsement of genocide methinks I have never heard.

Then you didn't understand what he wrote.

Lyle said...

Frederick Douglass would not have run away from trying to stop this, I think.

Barack Obama is no Frederick Douglass.

prairie wind said...

Barack Obama is no Frederick Douglass.

Neither was Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot. There is a long list of people who are not Frederick Douglass.

Lem said...
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Jennifer said...

I haven't finished reading yet, but I can't get past this "Despite being denounced by the United Nations as a “harmful traditional practice,” baad is pervasive in rural southern and eastern Afghanistan". Who actually believes rural Afghanis would be in any way influenced by United Nations pronouncements!? The author's naive faith in her own personal world order is almost touching.

Lem said...
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Lyle said...

@praire wind,

You're missing the point. Barack Obama is no abolitionist. He doesn't care about ending slavery or standing up to despotism like Frederick Douglass did.

Fredercik Douglass was a great American; Barack Obama is something less than Frederick Douglass.

Jennifer said...

I will truly never comprehend this region's utter disregard for humanity.

But, then I guess this girl's father is a bit of a glimmer of hope. He was all for this ridiculously barbaric practice right up until he came face to face with its product. Now he's dropped everything and fled to protect his daughter? That's something, I guess.

rhhardin said...

Shakespeare's time marked the change from political marriage to romantic marriage.

Cavell

Joe said...

This is traditional marriage, how can so many here be against it?

John Lynch said...

If that's baad, what's woorse?

Lem said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coketown said...

Instead of turning to the courts, they go to jirgas, assemblies of tribal elders, that use tribal law, which allows the exchange of women.

Sorry, is this Afghanistan or Zuccotti Park? Assemblies, opium, exchange of women--who can tell the difference?

Lem said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carnifex said...

It is a matter of procreation and survival. A son, in a hand to mouth society, has the ability to substantially add to the food supply that a family/town/tribe may reap. A female doesn't just add her mouth to feed, but any children that she may birth is added too. So whether we approve or not, and truthfully, Planned Parenthood should approve, this is a very harsh method of birth control.

Only in modern western society is there enough food to indulge in the extravagance of equal opportunity. Every other society ever created has been solely concerned with the survival of the immediate tribe. It wouldn't surprise me if it were discovered that racism is instinctive, and can only be over come in a prosperous society.

Also, it does keep down the deaths of the important male population if there are fewer tribal wars to be fought. And there is the mixing of the genetics. This is also why there is such corruption in every facet of officialdom...all geared to the survival of the tribe.

There only way to evolve such a society is to make it more prosperous. Prosperous enough that gentler emotions can come into play. But that requires the quashing of the baseline society in the first place, and that requires something the State Department has been working to eliminate, and that would be a strong man leader. One who can crush the existing society and make the tribal leaders follow his dictates. For an example, look at Attaturk. As it is, his influence is slowly being degraded by the incursion of Islamic poverty.

Because of it's total control of adherents life's, Islamic society is poor society. Not saying that there aren't rich Islamicist, there are. The Sultan's, Sheik's, and Emir's, all enrich themselves at the expense of their people. Their society itself exists in poverty undreamed of by the poorest westerner. This is because Islam doesn't allow for flexibility. It is a totally controlling society. Sorta like the Soviet society under communism.

And this is one of the reasons I worry for my grandchildren. With the ever expanding role government championed by both parties, I don't foresee a lot of prosperity returning to America until we purge the tyrants of DC.

Ann Althouse said...

Check the comment instructions please.

Deletions a-coming.

Partridge said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Partridge said...

Carnifex,

Check this out.

How inflexible do you think "Islamic" societies are now? You might as well have said the same thing about Catholicism. I can think of a few people who would. I'll give you one benefit of the doubt in believing you wouldn't.

JAL said...

Oh good grief, Partridge .. did you read it? How many judges did he have to go to? And this is the *first* time -- a one judge decision.

And it *will* "trigger a heated debate."

You betcha.

I sure hope this guy (and probably the surgeon) plan on emigrating.

Now maybe he lives in the big city (yeah, I guess Rawalpindi qualifies) but this is *Pakistan* not India.

There is no place in radical Islam for gender changed guys (gals?). Not to mention that women aren't treated especially well, (Benazir Bhutto not withstanding.) The culture says if you're a woman you have babies. If you don't have babies you're a second class woman.

This is the same country which has a woman in prison under a death sentence for *supposedly* "blaspheming" Mohammed.

As for this Afghan girl, I think Shakila has some hope for (relative Islamic) normalcy --? which ain't necessarily great. (“I don’t know about my future,” she said. “Whether it will be good or bad.”)

Him?

He/she needs to emigrate.

Carnifex said...

@ Partridge

What he said. If it happens I will be truly. truly surprised. If it happens, and he is not beheaded for apostasy I would be shocked.

And do you mean the Catholicism of John F. Kennedy? There was a little thing called the reformation. Might wanna look that up. The Catholic Church has many strictures that most liberals would say are "barbaric", but there hasn't been a stoning, or a witch burning in a long time.(except in Islamic or non Christian countries where such practices continue)

Cedarford said...

Bush and the Neocon's nation-building mission, costing us over a thousand maimed and dead and 300 billion above and beyond the cost to whack the AQ zombies - was a fools errand.
The tribes that have "baad" don't give two shits about UN Resolutions or crappy infidel Constitutions.

Nor do we "have a moral responsibility to bring them the Bill of Rights". Pretending we have a "moral duty" to anyone other than Americans and our truly vital interests - is what is helping bankrupt us.

Darrell said...

They know it's Baad but keep on doing it.

Just like Obama.


The Catholic Church has many strictures that most liberals would say are "barbaric"...

Like what? Go soak your fucking head. Is that one of them?

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JAL said...

OK.

OK.

Enough is enough.

How did EMILY the ROBOT do the captcha?

Oh. Got it. The Chinese don't use robots, they have gazillions of people they need to give jobs to, so, captcha or not they get on the blog.

So -- Emily proves there in no reason for google to use captcha.

Professor -- email your google guy and tell him we hate it.

Emmet diappan

Carnifex said...

@ Darrel

You deny that liberals think it is discriminatory to refuse to marry gays? How's that for one? By the way nice ad hominem. Maybe you could add something cogent next time.

Wally Kalbacken said...

They's baad, they's caliphate-wide!

bgates said...

You deny that liberals think it is discriminatory to refuse to marry gays?

The word you had used was "barbaric". That calls to mind something like the Mongol Horde, which drove defenseless captives before it into battle, catapulted diseased corpses over the walls of besieged cities, massacred and enslaved millions of people, and forced vassal states to accept that romantic unions between homosexual couples could be recognized by only civil not religious authorities.

Partridge said...

JAL and Carnifex,

You missed the part where it mentioned that these surgeries happen in Iran and Egypt, both considered Islamic societies. In Egypt, particularly, the government has been known to accept gender reassignment surgery and there have been fatwas on both sides of the issue .The point, clearly, is not gender reassignment surgery. The point is that you have accused an entire billion people of belonging to a religion that is completely controlling and totally inflexible, and you have done so without knowing the first thing about how that religion affects the lives of its adherents or their societies. Is gender re-assignment surgery common in Islamic countries? No. Is it controversial? Yes. Isn't it in America? But the surgery is not the point.

Darrell said...

Carnifex,

Thanks for proving that there was no need for cogency. Quit insulting the RC Church and you might get a civil response. Civility, like some of your orifices, is a two-way street.

Michael said...

Partridge. Thanks for pointing out what the rest of the sentient world has missed! The world of Islam really is about open minds. And kites. Yes, kites.

Fen said...

Saw a late night documentary on this.

1) The families arrange to grow Opium for the drug lords for a cut.

2) The government comes in and destroys the harvest.

3) The drug lords take the female children as compensation.

Carnifex said...

@ Darrel

You might want to re read my original post there dude. I wasn't insulting Catholicism, I was insulting lib-progressives. As an ex-alter boy I have a great deal of respect for the Church. Anyway, no biggie.

JAL said...

Partridge you have done so without knowing the first thing about how that religion affects the lives of its adherents or their societies.

I lived in India. Two of my kids were born there.

Si I might know a little more than "the first thing" about how Islam affects the lives of its adherants and their societies.