November 9, 2011

"Voters turned a skeptical eye toward conservative-backed measures across the country Tuesday..."

"... rejecting an anti-labor law in Ohio, an anti-abortion measure in Mississippi and a crackdown on voting rights in Maine."

The NYT's Katharine Q. Seelye begins her coverage of yesterday's elections.
Taken together, Tuesday’s results could breathe new life into President Obama’s hopes for his re-election a year from now. But the day was not a wholesale victory for Democrats. Even as voters in Ohio delivered a blow to Gov. John R. Kasich, a Republican, and rejected his attempt to weaken collective bargaining for public employees, they approved a symbolic measure to exempt Ohio residents from the individual mandate required in Mr. Obama’s health care law.
But Obama has never advocated collective bargaining rights for federal workers. His name is all over the health care law. So it's hard to see much good news here. 
And while voters in Mississippi, one of the most conservative states, turned away a measure that would have outlawed all abortions and many forms of contraception and had drawn conservative support from members of both parties, they tightened their voting laws to require some from of government-approved identification....
Actually, it would have been great news for Democrats if Mississippi voters had gone for the extreme anti-abortion law. Democrats would have used that result to scare, motivate, and manipulate voters. It's their very favorite wedge issue. There's much less potential for leveraging the voter ID issue. Seelye reminds us that Democrats portray voter-ID laws as "a thinly disguised attempt to intimidate voters of color," but I suspect that most voters find that sort of race-mongering unpleasant.

(I had to make a "2011 elections" tag for this post, which is another way of saying I having been paying much attention to the off-year elections. Sorry. These are very interesting issues, and I've been following the Wisconsin iterations of the collective bargaining and voter ID issues.)

192 comments:

David said...

"a crackdown on voting rights"

Reporter needs a new pair of undies. Her bias is showing.

rhhardin said...

I didn't see a single yard sign against repeal of the Ohio union bargaining law; lots for ("vote no").

The yard sign expenditures by conservatives must have been zero.

Soil and water, whatever it was, lost 3 to 2, which is probably good.

Bender said...

For strategic reasons, I thought the Mississippi initiative perhaps a bit unwise.

But do Dems really want to revel (again) in the repugnant idea that some human beings are less than full persons?

Do they really want to accuse as "extremist" the idea that all human beings are deserving of dignity and respect?

KenK said...

News flash (for some of you anyhow):"Once the monkeys learn they can vote themselves bananas, they'll never climb another tree." And so it goes and will continue to go until there are no more bananas at all. The low hanging easy ones are already gone.

Surfed said...

Abortion is a nasty thing. That being said, if some animal had ever broken into my house, raped my daughter and impregnated her I would want the procedure to be fast, safe and legal.

edutcher said...

rh is right. The Conservatives (and the Tea Partiers) only ran TV ads.

Which is odd since grass roots is their forte

It seems there was only an effort at the Republican Party (we got phone calls), but that was it.

In any case, Kasich sounds as if he isn't done yet.

Nationally, there seems to have been some apathy on the Right.

Joaquin said...

Bender,
YES and YES.

Curious George said...

To think that any of these issues relate in any way to the 2012 presidential race is laughable.

I mean I can see why the NYT wants to spin it that way, but we are smarter than that...right?

Hoosier Daddy said...

The Mississippi law was stupid.

Bill said...

Althouse, only you and other nutty right wingers would view this as something insignificant. Kaisch said that the voters have spoken and he's going to listen to them. The margin of victory made it pretty clear how people viewed the CBA rights.

In Kentucky, Beshear coasted to victory and the Democrats handily won most of the local elections there.

The funny thing is that if this was the other way around and the GOP had won the initiatives, you'd be prancing around like a jackass and calling it a big deal.

Every time you call yourself "neutral" you're essentially lying. At least own your absurd political biases.

Scott M said...

Disappointing day in Ohio on the one hand, tempered by their willingness to follow Missouri and vote, however symbolically, against the individual mandate.

I agree with AA on the personhood in Mississippi and was frankly aghast at the possibility that abortion might become an issue in this next election cycle. This is an economic presidential race, period. Any veering from that course simply affirms that we don't care where the country is going. Tempered, again, with the Mississippi voters affirming that it doesn't make sense to require ID for smokes and beer while not for voting.

Tank said...

The Ohio vote on public unions confirms that most don't "get it." They just think we can somehow keep on keeping on pretty much as we have been.

Does not really matter overall.

We're going down the drain.

La La La La La.

Dead country walking.

We're just as dead as Greece and Italy, but we'll never admit it until there is rioting, chaos and anarchy.

Hard to know when the SWHTF. Could be soon. Or not.

JMHO of course.

EDH said...

What bleeds between the lines of this reporter's coverage is her cultivation of the Republican "barbarians at the gates" theme.

the chief architect of that state’s controversial anti-immigration law...apart from his anti-immigration efforts, he had introduced numerous bills to nullify federal laws.

Gov. John R. Kasich, a Republican, and rejected his attempt to weaken collective bargaining for public employees

where Republicans recently had ended same-day registration at polling places

an attempt by Republicans in Virginia to take over the state Senate — and thereby take complete control of the state government — appeared stalled

in Iowa, Republicans failed in their attempt to win control of the State Senate


Is the reporter's name pronounced SEE-LIE?

Surfed said...

@Bill - You are impolite to your host.

Petunia said...

I wonder how many Ohio public employees will be let go now?

I wonder what would have happened had the Ohio law not included the police and firefighters, who are very good at drumming up public support?

I also wonder what will happen when the Ohio legislature reintroduces the parts of the bill concerning increased contributions to pensions and health insurance, which apparently were supported by the majority of Ohioans polled?

And I wonder what would have happened had the Ohio law been in effect for several months before the election, and people would have had a chance to see the reforms working?

At least they were smart enough to vote down the individual mandate.

Ohio State still sucks.

garage mahal said...

It's absurd to think right extremists around the country getting beat back and recalled is good news for Democrats!

LarsPorsena said...

"Althouse, only you and other nutty right wingers would view this as something insignificant. Kaisch said that the voters have spoken and he's going to listen to them. The margin of victory made it pretty clear how people viewed the CBA rights.
......................

Now, let the cuts and layoffs begin. There's no money.

Scott M said...

The funny thing is that if this was the other way around and the GOP had won the initiatives, you'd be prancing around like a jackass and calling it a big deal.

Go back and read her comments, which are split, much as the results in Ohio and Mississippi are split, from a purely ideological point of view. Her take on it was as mixed as the results.

If you think state populations voting against the individual mandate is insignificant, you're wrong. I agree that conservatives would be touting wins in little ol' local KY elections, but I don't expect any Democrats, outside KY, to do so. That's flyover country, you see...

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... This is an economic presidential race, period..."

Exactly. I could care less about Ohios CBR laws because if they want them so bad then they have to come up with the revenue to pay for it.

Same with entitlement spending on the federal level. Only mironic leftwingers hold the fantasy that we can spend infinite amounts of money with no adverse consequences. Like Greece and Italy, it will come to a head because there simply is not enough money to pay for cradle to grave benefits.

Whether we can ever right the ship is going to depend on reversing decades of reliance on the State or simply keep sucking on the taxpayer bong until the bowl is empty.

Scott M said...

The Ohio vote on public unions confirms that most don't "get it."

That's just another way of saying Obama's "we have a messaging problem". It doesn't pass the smell test.

Crimso said...

"The funny thing is that if this was the other way around and the GOP had won the initiatives, you'd be prancing around like a jackass and calling it a big deal."

I don't know about how well that applies to the rest of your observations, but as a native Kentuckian who lived there the first 30 years of my life, I can assure you that Republican governors in KY are very much the exception rather than the rule (at least since as far back as when my father was born, and I'm 47). So, Democrat elected KY governor is a dog bites man story, Republican elected KY governor is a werewolf bites man story.

Allie said...

This is a should be a signal to The Tea Party Conservatives and the Republican Party that they have overplayed their hand, they showed their cards too early. The repeated anti women's reproductive rights bills, the states attempts to demonize public workers as being the ones who are" feeding at the trough". The demonization of school teachers, the defunding of Public Schools to divert more monies to private schools, the blatant attempts to push ALEC tainted laws. The attempts to balance the budget on the backs of the middle class worker, while continuing tax loop holes and breaks for the super rich.

Why do you think OW resonates with so many more people than you conservatives want to admit. If you can't see the significance of what has transpired last night , then there is no hope for you people. You continue to hitch up your wagons to one failed candidate after another and ignore your only hope, Romney, because of Tea Party purity tests.

This has been a tremendous boost to Wisconsin Democrats. On with the Walker recall, I know we will continue to see more dirty tricks, but hey oh well, bring it on, we have the votes.This time the WHOLE state will be voting, not just the districts in which Senators were being recalled.

Scott M said...

It's absurd to think right extremists around the country getting beat back and recalled is good news for Democrats!

Garage was conspicuously vacant from commenting on AA yesterday as he was in Ohio, sans proof that he's a resident, voting early and often.

How'd those voter ID and individual mandate results grab you, GM?

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... I wonder how many Ohio public employees will be let go now?..."

None if taxes are sufficiently raised.

Ann Althouse said...

"Althouse, only you and other nutty right wingers would view this as something insignificant. Kaisch said that the voters have spoken and he's going to listen to them. The margin of victory made it pretty clear how people viewed the CBA rights."

Where did I say it was insignificant? I said it's an issue that isn't about Obama. Obama has never lifted a finger to give federal employees the rights that Ohioans restored to Ohio public employees.

Focus on exactly that. Ohioans looked at specific issues and went in the Ohio Republican direction on one and the Ohio Democratic direction on the other. The issue that is identified with Obama is the one on which they went Republican, and the subject of the NYT reporters analysis was: What does this mean for Obama?

I'm supplementing that analysis. Feel free to delve into the matter further. But be clear about what I am saying.

Curious George said...

@ Bill:

Nationally incumbents in both parties won. This is generally the case in off elections for statewide races. So yawn.

As far as Ohio, massive union spending and turnout carried the day. So Ohio, facing monster deficits, is going to have to:

A) Have lay-offs of public workers at the state and local level and cut services.

B) Increase taxation on a weary and worried population

C) Both

Awesome! When Ohions flock to the polls next fall I'm sure they are going to remember the shitburger they had to eat thank the Democrats and their union minions for the meal!

Christopher in MA said...

"Kasich said the voters have spoken and he is going to listen to them."

Stupid surrender monkey. Doesn't he know that when you lose an election, you shriek for recounts, bring the business of the state to a halt and "find" enough "votes" to give you victory? That's the Democratic way. Life's so much easier when you have no standards.

Were I Kasich, I'd have said, "OK, the people spoke. You think there's still some magic money tree hidden in my backyard. You think the evil rich are just stuffing money in their mattresses to keep it away from you patriotic public servants.

"Fine. You voted for it and now you're going to get it, good and hard. I extend a personal invitation for every public parasite who loses their job because of budget cuts to come right in to my office, where I will have a photographer to take a photo of me shaking your hand while I say 'fuck you very much. You shit in your bed and now you can lie in it."

But that's why I could never be a politician.

J said...

saying I having

haven't .

Teabugs--the mormonic species in particular-- picked up some offices around Ellay. Brighamocracy, yall

Chip Ahoy said...

you'd be prancing around like a jackass and calling it a big deal.

Why are you being so rude this early in the morning? Did you ignore the part about having to make a 2011 tag?

Scott M said...

This is a should be a signal to The Tea Party Conservatives and the Republican Party that they have overplayed their hand, they showed their cards too early.

Do you think Obama did so with Obamacare?

The repeated anti women's reproductive rights bills,

How do you feel about mens' reproductive rights, Allie?

the states attempts to demonize public workers as being the ones who are" feeding at the trough".

Public workers are feeding from the trough. You might make the argument that they are getting their fair share of the gruel, but there's simply no disputing where they're feeding from.

Christopher said...

The author also seems to forget that Idaho just seriously curtailed PEU bargaining power, Ohio voted to oppose Obamacare, and Mississippi now has a republican controlled house for the first time since Reconstruction.

Shouting Thomas said...

This is a should be a signal to The Tea Party Conservatives and the Republican Party that they have overplayed their hand, they showed their cards too early. The repeated anti women's reproductive rights bills, the states attempts to demonize public workers as being the ones who are" feeding at the trough". The demonization of school teachers, the defunding of Public Schools to divert more monies to private schools, the blatant attempts to push ALEC tainted laws. The attempts to balance the budget on the backs of the middle class worker, while continuing tax loop holes and breaks for the super rich.

It's just a fantasy on your part, Allie, that this is what the Tea Party or the Republican Party stands for.

But, thanks for developing your fantasy to the fullest. Probably made you feel better.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Why do you think OW resonates with so many more people than you conservatives want to admit...."

That's a fascinating take. I had no idea the OWS movement was also supporting abortion and demanding more money for public employees.

I do admit its hard to keep up between watching videos of OWS protestors defacating on public employee cars and shoving elderly women down stairs.

Yes, that is some group you've hitched your apple cart to.

edutcher said...

Bill said...

Althouse, only you and other nutty right wingers would view this as something insignificant. Kaisch said that the voters have spoken and he's going to listen to them. The margin of victory made it pretty clear how people viewed the CBA rights.

The issue was purposely worded in a confusing manner by the unions.

A lot of people who voted "No" almost certainly thought they were voting for Kasich's bill.

The funny thing is that if this was the other way around and the GOP had won the initiatives, you'd be prancing around like a jackass and calling it a big deal.

Like the Demos always do, playing "Happy Days Are Here Again"?

Fen said...

I forget the source and exact quote, but its something like:

"We're guilted into approving more taxpayer funds for the teachers, policemen and firemen. And it always ends up going to some guy in a leather chair downtown that we've never heard of"

m stone said...

AA: But Obama has never advocated collective bargaining rights for federal workers.

He has, implicitly, just by strong praise for the PEs and stimulus funding for them. He's preserving his voting bloc. He is transparent here. If he fooled you, he's fooled others.

J said...

Letting your klansmen rant and rave Annie (including even queer Klansmen such as Shouting Tweek-fag). Not good for your already-shaky political image

Allie said...

Scott M, they fucking WORK, for their pay, nurses ,( fire fighters, police in Ohio anyway) teachers. They pay taxes, unlike many corporations.

Kasich was a moron to include the fire fighters and police in his attacks.Walker was a smarter by excluding them from the union bargaining law. Slick,but guess what they aren't dumb, they see the handwriting on the wall and know they will be he next target after the dust clears.

Demonizing middle class workers is failing with the majority of the middle class, at least those who aren't so ideologically blinded .

Shouting Thomas said...

Letting your klansmen rant and rave Annie (including even queer Klansmen such as Shouting Tweek-fag). Not good for your already-shaky political image

You're such a fucking Nazi, J.

Do you give the "Seig Heil!" salute before your Hitler monument when you wake up every morning in your mommy's basement?

Carol_Herman said...

Well, the conservatives were off playing with their GOP nominee condendahs.

While none of the 8 contendahs have been able to rouse up much support.

With yesterday's election results in hand, have I got news for those who think Romney is worth nominating.

Nope.

Not.

Just another McCain.

The elites (like Karl Rove), inside the real GOP tent ... They knew this all along.

Sarah Palin and Donald Trump also foresaw how crazy it is on the religious right side of the republican agenda.

This is how you know, unless there are drastic changes, ahead ... in what's important to your agenda ... you'll probably end up with The Funny Underwear Man, and the Pizza Guy. (The Pizza Guy likes his gals blonde, and white.) Which I thought would turn out to be the truth, too.

Shouting Thomas said...

Demonizing middle class workers is failing with the majority of the middle class, at least those who aren't so ideologically blinded .

Allie, there isn't enough money in the treasury to continue to pay the benefits and wages public workers extract.

Recognizing this is "demonizing?"

Can you do basic math?

J said...

Hey Tommy the old fag, you were told to STFU perp, weren't you tweek filth. Now, praise Sandusky some more today--the cops will be at yr single wide shortly, scum

You got that, white trash?

Carol_Herman said...

Ann, you deserve the compliments.

You run this blog with a "suggested topic," the same way a great teacher runs discussions in a classroom.

You don't really pick "favorites."

Alas, you said there were too many responses to the Herman Cain "mishigas." You weren't going to reach 600 responses. (Here, I hope you changed your mind.)

The best part of this blog is that there's such a variety to opinions.

As to "how the elections, yesterday, would turn out." Most of us need to see the results to be sure the country has flipped and gone crazy. Winnahs are in the middle. A little above the 50% line.

It just pays to be the party that knows how to stay away from 3rd rails.

Chuck66 said...

I'm very pro-life and I didn't like the Mississippi law. When it comes to abortion laws, I'm a big believer in minor reforms and working towards changing minds, not forcing laws that will have a ton of push back.

Shouting Thomas said...

J, when are you going to switch to your ndspinelli alias?

That way, you can play insult troll and pretend you ever actually did anything with your life.

Are you fucking your mommy, too?

Wouldn't surprise me.

garage mahal said...

How'd those voter ID and individual mandate results grab you, GM?

I'm more curious how the GOP plans to win the general without Ohio, where Obama is leading 9-17 points over any GOP hopeful. I don't think federal workers are going to save the day and go with the GOP considering what they would have in store for them.

Scott M said...

@Allie

Temper, temper. Scott M, they fucking WORK, for their pay, nurses ,( fire fighters, police in Ohio anyway) teachers.

So do I. Longer hours with far less generous benefits. No summers off either. Different trough, though. How about you?

hombre said...

Given the Ohio rejection of curbs on gov't unions, the doubling of security for Scott Walker, and the financial disasters that are Chicago and Michigan, the Midwest may be on it's way to being the new Greece.

Ineptocracy.

Maximus_Aurelius said...

The defeat of the Mississippi initiative makes me think that the ever-more conservative flanking maneuvers by the Republican candidates, while popular among the Christian right base, are frankly setting up a landslide for Obama in the general election.

People's distaste for Obama is less than their distaste for the radically socially conservative stances and actions embodied in most the the primary contenders.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm more curious how the GOP plans to win the general without Ohio, where Obama is leading 9-17 points over any GOP hopeful. I don't think federal workers are going to save the day and go with the GOP considering what they would have in store for them.

I'm more interested in when the day of reckoning will come for spending more money than we have.

But, that wouldn't matter to a stooge like you, would it garbage?

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Scott M, they fucking WORK, for their pay,.."

Guess, what, fucking so do we, the non-public employees who don't receive the kind of benefits many public employees do.

I don't begrudge a cop, firefighter or teacher a decent salary or benefits but at some point it starts coming to a head. Again, what is it with liberals and this belief in unlimited funding? What part of we are running out of money don't you people get? Is math that hard for you?

Scott M said...

@Allie part duex

I noticed you glazed right over my first question. I'll repost it for your convenience so you don't have to scroll.

You said This is a should be a signal to The Tea Party Conservatives and the Republican Party that they have overplayed their hand, they showed their cards too early.

I asked, do you think Obama did so with Obamacare?

Chuck66 said...

Although I didn't like the law, you could look at it this way....
In Mississippi, 33% of the population is Black, yet African-Americans account for 70% of the aborted babies.

Mississippi tried to pass a law saying those African-Americans are fully human.

Allie said...

Shouting , tax the fucking super rich. The Buffet Rule . Reform Medicare, bring home troops from all those bases we don't need to be in anymore in the world, bring home troops from Afghanistan, there are so many programs that need reform, it can be done.

cubanbob said...

Curious George said...
@ Bill:

Nationally incumbents in both parties won. This is generally the case in off elections for statewide races. So yawn.

As far as Ohio, massive union spending and turnout carried the day. So Ohio, facing monster deficits, is going to have to:

A) Have lay-offs of public workers at the state and local level and cut services.

B) Increase taxation on a weary and worried population

C) Both

Awesome! When Ohions flock to the polls next fall I'm sure they are going to remember the shitburger they had to eat thank the Democrats and their union minions for the meal!

11/9/11 10:03 AM

In Ohio the unions won a pyhric victory. As your analyses points out they are going to be placed between a rock and a hard place. The layoffs will start rather soon and the issue will be back before the voters next year. Kasich should stick to layoffs and forgo tax increases unless he is willing to risk tanking the Ohio economy. I wonder what was the turnout? I suspect every unionized worker voted and the non unionized workers largely stayed out of the booths and went to work.

Shanna said...

The 1% sales tax for my city was voted down, though. Horray for Democracy!

Carol_Herman said...

You know, what Ohio showed is that Americans, in the majority vote for our troops. Vote for our police. And, vote for our fire departments.

Kasich, the governor of Ohio, made an error. Perhaps he thought he'd out-do Walker in Wisconsin?

As to "fooling people" with the way the "yes" and "no" get written ... I don't buy that.

I saw how the wording of the marriage act was written in California. Which passed. And, now is being fought in the courts.

The "trick" was to vote NO.

But back then there were yard signs.

I didn't hear anyone discussing this!

But I did see rows of yard signs. Block after block. (With very few "yes" signs, scattered in between.)

"No means NO!" Ohio spoke.

Doesn't mean politicians can go "hog wild." Because politicians, individually, have to win over voters.

IF the topic doesn't go away?

Individual politicians, ahead, will "face the music."

MadisonMan said...

the ever-more conservative flanking maneuvers by the Republican candidates, while popular among the Christian right base, are frankly setting up a landslide for Obama in the general election.

This.

The only thing a Republican Presidential candidate should be saying is: Are you better off financially now than you were 4 years ago? Is the country going in the right direction?

J said...

In fact that's not me, Tommy the wicca queer.

we even got some intelligent TP people ready to bust yr ass, chester pedo. Besides, yr what 70+ years of age, right Tommy fag. You couldn't handle another prison term could ya, you untalented little speck of human excrement.

Best to leave now.

Allie said...

Scott, yes I do think he did with Obama Care, I hate it and wouldn't be against repealing it, IF a type of Universal Healthcare with a Public Option replaced it. Do no like Obama, he was WEAK, he was no the liberal we wanted.

Scott M said...

@GM

I'm more curious how the GOP plans to win...

Not what I asked you at all. I'll repost for your convenience.

How'd those voter ID and individual mandate results grab you, GM?

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting , tax the fucking super rich. The Buffet Rule . Reform Medicare, bring home troops from all those bases we don't need to be in anymore in the world, bring home troops from Afghanistan, there are so many programs that need reform, it can be done.

(1) Taxing the fucking super rich simply won't work. Will not produce the revenue. And, the super rich hire troops of clever lawyers to defend themselves. I used to work for those lawyers. You'd be surprise just how smart they are.

Then, there's the problem of those fucking super rich simply passing along the tax burden as higher prices.

(2) What's your formula for "reforming" Medicare? That could be just about anything. The problem is that it wasn't designed to handle the hordes of elderly we now keep alive.

(3) I'm with you on closing foreign bases and bringing the troops home. Believe me, there will still be wars to be fought. I'm just of the opinion that you gear up your army and weaponry when you have to go to war, instead of remaining on all out war footing in perpetuity.

It's interesting that you have so much trust in government when it comes to domestic affairs, but you so clearly so that government is prone to fuck up in foreign affairs.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... I'm more curious how the GOP plans to win the general without Ohio, where Obama is leading 9-17 points over any GOP hopeful..."

Actually, I'm kind of hoping Obama does win. This country is essentially a heroin addict that hasn't figured out he's on a course of self destruction. Another Obama term would be the final needle in the vein, so to speak at which point we will have come to the conclusion that the liberal welfare dream pretty much ruined a great nation and we might finally get to work fixing it.

We just ain't there yet. Garage's usual comments prove that liberals are still on their high.

Matt said...

it would have been great news for Democrats if Mississippi voters had gone for the extreme anti-abortion law. Democrats would have used that result to scare, motivate, and manipulate voters.

If the bill would have passed then the Democrats would not have to 'manipulate' voters because [duh] the bill would have passed. Manipulation usually comes in the form of scaring voters about something that might happen not something that has happened.

Canuck said...

"The issue that is identified with Obama is the one on which they went Republican, and the subject of the NYT reporters analysis was: What does this mean for Obama?"

It means people are highly motivated to vote in Ohio. How does it impact Obama?

That depends on if these highly motivated voters will cast a vote for him.

Scott M said...

Hoosier: What part of we are running out of money don't you people get? Is math that hard for you?

Apparently Allie is just fine with single-source, no bid health insurance. Surely, the companies involved with union health care only want to do the best for their customers, right? They wouldn't jack up their rates far higher than competition (prevented by statute, mind you) would they?

Surely the trough wouldn't provide some much extra taxpayer money for no good reason, would it?

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Do no like Obama, he was WEAK, he was no the liberal we wanted...."

Damn shame Fidel and Hugo are in ill health.

Scott M said...

In Ohio the unions won a pyhric victory.

This. Kasich has already said he's not providing state funds to bail out municipalities drowning in pension debt.

Seeing Red said...

Get ready for the states to collect online sales tax, the senate is working on it.

DRJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Seeing Red said...

Scott M, they fucking WORK, for their pay, nurses ,( fire fighters, police in Ohio anyway) teachers. They pay taxes, unlike many corporations


They've voted to pay more taxes. Sweet.

Win-win.

Allie said...

Shouting it's the old ideological divide, liberals trust Government more because we can vote their asses out if they screw up. WE are the government.

We don't trust Corporations to run the show and do what's right because their bottom line is profit, fueled by GREED. Did we not see this with the Wall Street fiasco? We are living in an Oligarchy, we have ALEC writing laws that are pre approved by rich corporations before they are even submitted to the state legislators. how is this representative government?

Carol_Herman said...

This analysis appeared at Reddit. Discussing Mississipi's turndown of the "personhood" anti-abortion amendment:

Some immediate analysis:

-The fact that this amendment couldn't even come close to passing in the most socially conservative state in the country is a huge defeat for any grander aspirations the backers of the amendment might have. It won't stop them from trying but it's good to see that American citizens aren't so easily swayed to radically restrict women's rights.

-The Republican gubernatorial candidate who supported the amendment won with 60% of the votes while the Democratic candidate only received 40%. Dupree got crushed. Yet despite huge turnout and Republicans having multiple reasons to go to the polls, this amendment was still defeated. The proponents of this amendment had a near perfect storm for getting it passed and yet they still couldn't succeed. Good for Mississippi, good for women and good for America.

garage mahal said...

We just ain't there yet. Garage's usual comments prove that liberals are still on their high.

Issue 2 lost 61-39, with 2010 turnouts. Ohio is 61% liberal eh?

Seeing Red said...

Lincoln: “You don’t make the poor rich by making the rich poor.”

Seeing Red said...

She's not trying to say unions aren't greedy, is she?

Chuck66 said...

Allie, I suppose youi also thing the greedy Jew businessmen secretly control out country.

Pastafarian said...

As an Ohio voter, I can tell you precisely why Issue 2 failed.

First, the idiots in the Ohio Republican party agreed to make a "Yes" vote necessary to retain an already-passed law. Since there's a natural tendency to vote "no" on referenda, this put issue two at an immediate disadvantage.

Next, the idiots in the Ohio Republican party made Senate Bill 5 a catch-all for several things -- collective bargaining, a higher share of retirement, merit pay. With each addition, they added more opposition. Had they made each a separate proposition, each would have been favored by a narrow majority of voters.

And opponents outspent and out-advertised proponents 50 to 1. The reason there were almost no "Yes" yardsigns was that people didn't want their houses vandalized. Since uniformed police officers could be seen driving up the street in their cruisers posting "No" signs, there wouldn't have been much protection offered.

Finally, the ballot wording itself was a joke: It read, paraphrasing, "Issue 2 would re-affirm Senate Bill 5, a bill that concerned collective bargaining rights of public employees and a few other issues."

It actually said that -- that Senate Bill 5 had something to do with collective bargaining; without explaining what it had to do with it.

So after a relentless drumbeat to vote "No" from every corner, and with little idea what a vote "yes" would even mean, people voted "no".

On behalf of all Ohioans, to you commenters in Texas and North Carolina who will soon receive employers sure to flee our state in droves, I'd just like to say "You're welcome."

Thorley Winston said...

I’m not really sure how representative odd-numbered year elections are of public sentiment. Here in Minnesota, we generally have a much higher turnout in even-numbered year elections when we vote for federal and State offices although some local elections are held in odd-numbered years (which always struck me as odd). Usually school levies are put on the ballot in odd-numbered years (when they’re more likely to pass due to low turnout). I suspect the same is true in other States.

Seeing Red said...

how is this representative government?

You voted for them.

Shouting Thomas said...

We don't trust Corporations to run the show and do what's right because their bottom line is profit, fueled by GREED. Did we not see this with the Wall Street fiasco? We are living in an Oligarchy, we have ALEC writing laws that are pre approved by rich corporations before they are even submitted to the state legislators. how is this representative government?

Nobody asked you to trust corporations.

Profit is good. Greed is just part of the human condition.

The Wall Street fiasco was set in motion by government action. The Fed forced banks to drop their lending standards and give mortgages to just about anybody in the name of the great god, Diversity.

It isn't perfect representative government, but that's because humans are flawed. Money buys power and influence. Always has in every society in history. U.S. representative government is just the best humans have ever managed to do.

And, your remedy for that is what?

Oligonicella said...

"I had to make a "2011 elections" tag for this post, which is another way of saying I having been paying much attention to the off-year elections."

I know this is OT, but did you ever apologize to that prof for implying he had grad students writing for him because of a typo less severe than this one?

Allie said...

Allie, I suppose youi also thing the greedy Jew businessmen secretly control out country.

11/9/11 10:41 AM
Chuck, you're an idiot, my children are half Jewish.

Fen said...

Allie: liberals trust Government more because we can vote their asses out if they screw up. WE are the government

Shorter Allie: "The Corporations have co-opted the Government! We need to Government to protect us!"

Christopher in MA said...

"Tax the super-rich."

Question Time, Allie. What and who are the "super rich?" Just the Koch Brothers and the Buffetts and Jobses and Gateses? What about the Russell Simmonses or the Barbara Streisands or the Martha Stewarts? How about the Clintons? Define your term first.

And as ST says - if you think anyone who is "super rich" doesn't have an army of accountants whose paycheck depends on making sure the "super rich" person pays as little as possible, you're out of your mind.

Hoosier, I'm with you. As the OWS fools have proven, there is still an astonishing number of self-satisfied, entitled morons who think we can still squeeze more blood out of the stone to give them five more years in the Queer Studies department or the money to open up an oh-so-hip juice bar / music shop in the boho section of town.

Romney's going to be the nominee, and Obama will be elected. I'd bet cold cash on that. And then the wheels might finally come off the wagon. It will be worth it to hear the wails from the Allies and Garages of the country when they wake up one morning to shriek "but you CAN'T cut off my pension! I'm in the UNION! We had a CONTRACT! GIMME MY MONEY!"

cubanbob said...

Allie said...
Shouting , tax the fucking super rich. The Buffet Rule . Reform Medicare, bring home troops from all those bases we don't need to be in anymore in the world, bring home troops from Afghanistan, there are so many programs that need reform, it can be done.

11/9/11 10:23 AM

How is it possible to be so stupid politically yet be of normal intelligence in your daily life?

Do you really think the super rich are going to pay that much more in taxes? Are you honestly that dumb and ignorant? Money is fungible and not sentimental. They will simply take their marbles and leave putting the economy in even worse shape.

You can disband the military and the savings still are not enough. The entitlement state is over. No matter what they election results are, reality cannot be denied and the rollback will occur.

Kasich in Ohio will now offer the people of Ohio the 3 choices pointed out by another commenter: higher taxes, large staff reductions or both. It's a shit sandwich and in next year's election guess what the unions in Ohio are going to be facing? The same choice all over again. Every state is going to have to confront the issue and overall its going to result in the curbing if not outright banning of public sector unions. Reality cannot be denied. And it won't.

Fen said...

Allie: Chuck, you're an idiot, my children are half Jewish.

"I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black"

Shouting Thomas said...

Shorter Allie: "The Corporations have co-opted the Government! We need to Government to protect us!"

I gotta agree, Allie.

Your childish trust in government is touching.

You recognize the natural tendency to corruption, but somehow you toss that aside in your zeal to "fix" things.

hombre said...

Given the Ohio rejection of curbs on gov't unions, the doubling of security for Scott Walker, and the financial disasters that are Chicago and Michigan, the Midwest may be on it's way to being the new Greece.

Ineptocracy.

Hoosier Daddy said...

" Issue 2 lost 61-39, with 2010 turnouts. Ohio is 61% liberal eh?#

Possibly. If they want more generous public employee pay and benefits and turn out in droves for Obama in 2012 then good for them.

I like goodies too but I have to pay for them myself. If Ohioans want more government then they should be willing to pay for it. If I were Kasich, I'd submit to the legislatute a bill for a tax increase sufficient to cover the costs of these increased public employee benefits. If that many support it, then they need to pony up.

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Shorter Allie: "The Corporations have co-opted the Government! We need to Government to protect us!"..."

Nice Fen. I was still shaking my head at the cognitive dissonance she displayed in that post.

Shouting Thomas said...

Allie, maybe "fixing" things is harder than you think?

Maybe "fixing" things, more often than not, creates even more (and possibly worse) problems?

Fen said...

Thanks, but I had a typo, should read:

Shorter Allie: "The Corporations have co-opted the Government! We need the Government to protect us!"

Scott M said...

I was still shaking my head at the cognitive dissonance she displayed in that post.

As was determined yesterday, cognitive dissonance happens with the eyes rolling back in the head and an audible SPOINK. I didn't have my speakers up when she posted that, but I did see the level meter jump into the red.

garage mahal said...

Possibly.

Ohio is possibly 61% liberal? Really?

sorepaw said...

The demonization of school teachers, the defunding of Public Schools to divert more monies to private schools, the blatant attempts to push ALEC tainted laws. The attempts to balance the budget on the backs of the middle class worker, while continuing tax loop holes and breaks for the super rich.

Uh, Allie, do you think the repeal via referendum will prove such a great inspiration to the unionized state and municipal employees in Ohio when they end up being laid off? As many of them now will...

Most of the stiffing on pensions will happen later, beyond the time horizon of a lot of the people who pushed for this repeal, but it will happen. The numbers don't lie.

And public K-12 will keep getting worse.

Good piece today by Walter Russell Mead, on how the coalition between gentry liberals, unionized public employees, and poor people is starting to come apart:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/11/06/occupy-blue-wall-street/

Pastafarian said...

Garage, see my comment at 10:41 if you'd actually like to know why issue 2 failed.

Pastafarian said...

Actually, sorepaw, things are worse than you think: In many instances, public employee unions are allowed to collectively bargain about staffing levels.

So the next stop for Ohio is default. Thanks, Allie!

sorepaw said...

Manipulation usually comes in the form of scaring voters about something that might happen not something that has happened.

The manipulation would, of course, be of voters outside of Mississippi, had Mississippians approved this amendment.

I'm glad the Mississippi "personhood" amendment didn't pass.

Not only is abortion not a priority when we're about to go down the crapper financially, a state amendment defining personhood differently from the Constitution of the United States is, umm, unconstitutional.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Ohio is possibly 61% liberal? Really?.."

I don't live there so I don't know.

sorepaw said...

In many instances, public employee unions are allowed to collectively bargain about staffing levels.

Well, Pastafarian, you've just come up with a new and better definition of insanity.

Time for the legal eagles to work out whether, and by what process, whole states can file for bankruptcy under our system...

Scott M said...

GM

Ohio is possibly 61% liberal? Really?

Why are you ignoring the question, GM? Voter ID is a hotbutton issue with you, judging by your presence here on this blog. How did yesterday's Voter ID passing grab you?

sorepaw said...

The unit has, for once, emitted meaningful output.

Ohio is possibly 61% liberal? Really?

Not if you go by another referendum vote, on the individual mandate in ObamaReidPelosiCare.

X said...

Washington State citizens voted to fire 900 public sector union employees. Thanks Citizens United!

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Do you really think the super rich are going to pay that much more in taxes?..."

Let's assume for the sake of argument they will. It's not enough. Let's assume the govt confiscates all the wealth of the 1%, it'd still not enough to meet state and federal pension and entitlements.
Not to mention paying down the debt.

That's where garages money making machine saves the day. We just press a button and print mo money.

ic said...

Unlike the cheapie Wisconsians, Ohioans love to pamper their union goons with their tax dollars.

Allie said...

"In a Democracy, the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".

Aristotle

One man one vote. We shall see what 2012 brings us.

edutcher said...

Allie said...

Shouting , tax the fucking super rich. The Buffet Rule . Reform Medicare, bring home troops from all those bases we don't need to be in anymore in the world, bring home troops from Afghanistan, there are so many programs that need reform, it can be done.

And guess who's the first to scream when the Republicans start to reform all those "many programs that need reform"?

Guess who screams loudest when the Republicans "reform Medicare"?

Unless, of course, the single-celled intelligence wants it done the ZeroCare way where all the old people are given pamphlets on assisted suicide

And somebody tell the single-celled intelligence that taxing the super rich even 100% runs the country for about 2 weeks.

And destroys the tax base needed to run her socialist utopia.

edutcher said...

Allie said...

"In a Democracy, the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".

Democracy in Aristotle's day was defined with an electorate composed of upper-class (those filthy rich), property-owning males.

Democrat in Colonial times meant a panderer to the masses.

Democracy today is mob rule.

Lynching is democracy in action.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... One man one vote...."

Heh. I always though universal suffrage was overrated.

Christopher in MA said...

"One man one vote. We shall see what 2012 brings us."

I see you've decided to whiff on the question of who the super rich are. Let's try two other questions. An answer to either one will do, though I admit #2 will be much harder:

1. What constitutes "super rich?" Please provide a number to differentiate them from the merely "rich."

2. How much of the income of the "super rich" should be taken for taxation? Please provide a percentage, justification for that percentage and an explanation of how to prevent the "super rich" from using exemptions, deductions or other tax shelters to avoid paying the Allie percentage.

cubanbob said...

sorepaw said...
In many instances, public employee unions are allowed to collectively bargain about staffing levels.

Well, Pastafarian, you've just come up with a new and better definition of insanity.

Time for the legal eagles to work out whether, and by what process, whole states can file for bankruptcy under our system...

11/9/11 11:08 AM

States are sovereign. They can't go bankrupt. They can however default or declare the debt odious. No matter what the unions think or the progressives think, no court will ever attempt to force a state legislature to increase taxes to cover the union pension obligation. It's a game of chicken the federal courts will never attempt and if they did be able to enforce.

garage mahal said...

2. How much of the income of the "super rich" should be taken for taxation?

Let's try going back to the Reagan rates and see how it works out.

cubanbob said...

Christopher in MA said...
"One man one vote. We shall see what 2012 brings us."

I see you've decided to whiff on the question of who the super rich are. Let's try two other questions. An answer to either one will do, though I admit #2 will be much harder:

1. What constitutes "super rich?" Please provide a number to differentiate them from the merely "rich."

2. How much of the income of the "super rich" should be taken for taxation? Please provide a percentage, justification for that percentage and an explanation of how to prevent the "super rich" from using exemptions, deductions or other tax shelters to avoid paying the Allie percentage.

11/9/11 11:37 AM

It takes but a minute to initiate and send a wire transfer. How does Allie plan to prevent that?

cubanbob said...

garage mahal said...
2. How much of the income of the "super rich" should be taken for taxation?

Let's try going back to the Reagan rates and see how it works out.

11/9/11 11:39 AM

From your lips to God's ear, the top rate of 28%, YES!!!

Hoosier Daddy said...

Which rate under Reagan? The 50% rate or 28%?

Christopher in MA said...

"Let's try going back to the Reagan rates and see how that works out."

Fine with me. But only if we go back to the Reagan budget levels. Deal?

"It takes but a minute to initiate and send a wire transfer. How does Allie plan to prevent that?"

The Tinkerbell method of enforecement, perhaps? If we all clap our hands and wish, the super rich will never think of such a flagrant abrogation of their social contract?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Proposing going back to 2008 budget levels has liberals shrieking that society would collapse as a result of such draconian cuts.

hombre said...

Allie wrote: "In a Democracy, the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".

Aristotle

One man one vote. We shall see what 2012 brings us.


Cool. Let's turn the place over to the poor and the undocumented and the public unions, and the Hollywood millionaires.

What do you suppose morons like Allie foresee if that happens - involuntary servitude for the productive classes? A new, enlightened Soviet Union.

Or, as Peter Schieff said the other day: "Do you really think wealthy employers will continue to work for twenty cents on the dollar?"

Christopher in MA said...

"Proposing to go back to 2008 budget levels has liberals shrieking that society would collapse as a result of such draconian cuts."

Oh, I know, Hoosier. I'm sure Garage would point to some midwestern cowboy poetry program that exists only through the continual and increasing infusion of federal dollars, but it's interesting to see how quickly the enthusiasm for "Reagan rates" vainshes when it's tied to a Reagan budget.

Eli Blake said...

Here in Arizona we booted Russell Pearce, who as President of the State Senate spent way too much time on mean-spirited immigration bills, to the detriment of the state budget and the economy.

He got beat in a recall by Jerry Lewis.

The sidebar story: Arizona is now THE ONLY STATE IN THE COUNTRY with politicians named Jerry Lewis, Dean Martin and Paul Newman.

(Dean Martin is a Republican who was the state treasurer until the beginning of this year, and last year briefly ran for Governor in a primary against Jan Brewer.)

(Paul Newman is a Democrat on the state corporation commission.)

Eli Blake said...

Also, on voter ID, Maine voters repealed a law the legislature had passed banning same day registration at the polls.

That's just as important as Mississippi's law, why comment on one and not the other?

Christopher in MA said...

A funny story, Eli, but characterizing legislation as "mean-spirited" indicates your post is not to be taken seriously.

Scott M said...

Also, on voter ID, Maine voters repealed a law the legislature had passed banning same day registration at the polls.

Do you have to show photo ID to register to vote same day? If so, it would seem to be a subordinate rule.

Revenant said...

I don't think anybody really believes that voter ID laws are about racial discrimination.

I mean, get serious -- a photo ID is a normal part of life in the United States.

damikesc said...

I notice the NYT's long-standing concern about the corrupting influence of money in politics was amazingly muted in regards to Ohio last night.

Unions spent how many millions to defeat the bill?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Mean spirited immigration laws must mean requiring those wishing to immigrate to the US to actually follow the immigration laws.

This is why I just can't take liberals seriously. Either advocate open borders or insist on enforcement of the integrity of the border.

I Callahan said...

You could tax everyone with salaries of $250 K or more at 100% of gross income, and you'd never get enough to even eliminate the debt that states are on the hook for in pension costs. The next logical step would then be an actual confiscation of wealth. At that point, we might as well call ourself a communist country.

So ask yourself, Allie, is this really the route you want to travel?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Claiming racial discrimination is the standard callback position for liberals.

You would think in an age of id theft and a nation mean spirited enough to allow 10-12 million illegal aliens running around, a voter id law would be a.no brainer.

damikesc said...

Why do you think OW resonates with so many more people than you conservatives want to admit.

Considerably more disliked than likes --- and that is WITH fawning press attention.

You seem to have not noticed that people are growing increasingly sick of them.

You've also hitched your wagon to an increasingly violent and unstable group. I bet that will work out exceedingly well for you and the Dems.

Scott M, they fucking WORK, for their pay, nurses ,( fire fighters, police in Ohio anyway) teachers. They pay taxes, unlike many corporations.

They also game the system and cost taxpayers millions and millions in their abuse of the OT system.

WI saved thousands of public jobs with their reforms.

OH has just insured lots and lots of teachers et al will be fired.

...not that it will be much of a loss.

I'm more curious how the GOP plans to win the general without Ohio, where Obama is leading 9-17 points over any GOP hopeful. I don't think federal workers are going to save the day and go with the GOP considering what they would have in store for them.

Just point to the economy. Nothing Obama can say (well, more appropriately, stutter like a moron until a more intelligent person writes a boring response for him to read) is going to overcome what he has done.

Shouting , tax the fucking super rich.

Tax them 100$ --- and you don't cover the deficit this year alone...assuming that taxing them 100% doesn't cause revenue shortfalls elsewhere as they fire every single private employee in the country.

You also, mind you, eradicate the economy permanently.

The Buffet Rule

Is that the rule where you can whine that you want to pay more taxes while your investment group owes about A BILLION DOLLARS in back taxes to the IRS?

Reform Medicare

Provide what to do. You can't compensation to docs as they will simply refuse to take those patients. You can't raise taxes enough to cover the costs.

Perhaps Democrats should learn how to create programs that aren't designed to fail so magnificently.

...and any concerns about how much money Obama stole from Medicare thus far?

bring home troops from all those bases we don't need to be in anymore in the world, bring home troops from Afghanistan, there are so many programs that need reform, it can be done.

Why, yes, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic likely might have helped forestall a disaster...

You know, what Ohio showed is that Americans, in the majority vote for our troops. Vote for our police. And, vote for our fire departments.

You mean people will make irrational decisions? Amazing news.

Will they also vote for the massive layoffs that have to come to pay for this? Or will they vote for the massive tax hikes --- that will likely not resolve the problem anyway?

Did we not see this with the Wall Street fiasco?

The one where Democrats --- including the current empty suit in the WH --- voted overwhelmingly to bail them out while they gave him more money than any candidate has received from them in history?

Let's try going back to the Reagan rates and see how it works out.

I fully support that...provided we return to those levels of spending as well.

Fen said...

Garage: Let's try going back to the Reagan rates and see how it works out.

Garage, you ignorant slut, the problem is NOT the tax rates. Its the out of control spending.

Government: "uh, I need more money to pay this month's rent"

Taxpayers: "What? What happened to the $500 billion we just gave you?!"

Government: "I placed some on the Niners to win but lost. The rest went toward my crack addiction"

Taxpayers: [....]



Its pointless to disuss tax rates until you get spending under control. Otherwise, its no different than bailing out your brother with the gambling addiction. Every month.

Fen said...

Allie: "In a Democracy, the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".

Aristotle


Thats nice, dumbass, but we live in a Republic.

*gong!*

Thanks for playing. And our next libtard is...

Fen said...

But try this instead:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” ― Alexis de Tocqueville

Scott M said...

I don't think anybody really believes that voter ID laws are about racial discrimination.

Look in the dictionary under Voter ID and go down to the listing where it says, "See Garage Mahal".

Scott M said...

Claiming racial discrimination is the standard callback position for liberals.

What is a callback position? A technique for stand up comedy?

AprilApple said...

For democrats: keeping voter fraud out of the system is the same thing as "a crackdown on voting rights".

Fen said...

Tim Blair via AceofSpades:

"The recent Occupy Wall Street protests (and their Occupy Sydney and Occupy Melbourne cousins) have aimed their message at the income disparity between the 1% richest and the rest of the country. But what happens when you expand that and look at the 1% richest of the entire world?

How much do you need to earn to be among the top 1% … ?

$34,000.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ok Scott, posting using my Droid gives me a mulligan in grammatical errors.

Fallback!!!

damikesc said...

I don't think anybody really believes that voter ID laws are about racial discrimination.

According to the DNC, it is worse than what Bull Connor did to expect a minority (well, except for Asians and Jews, but hey, who cares about THEM, right?) to have a photo ID.

Apparently, even though they use nicer words, Progressives have no more respect for minorities than segregationists.

Scott M said...

Ok Scott, posting using my Droid gives me a mulligan in grammatical errors.

I gave up posting from the Droid X last year after a back and forth with Crack. WAY too many typos.

Allie said...

Allie: "In a Democracy, the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".

Aristotle

Thats nice, dumbass, but we live in a Republic.

*gong!*

Thanks for playing. And our next libtard is...

11/9/11 1:18 PM
Wrong Fen, we live in a Representative Democracy. You Teabaggers can call it a Republic all you want.

Scott M said...

Wrong Fen, we live in a Representative Democracy. You Teabaggers can call it a Republic all you want.

Apparently, Allie believes herself smarter than Ben Franklin.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Sorry Allie, the Teabaggers are right. We were founded as a republic. Shouldn't have slept during civics.

Meade said...

The NEW New Colossus (a modest proposal for a public monument)

Not like the brazen sick giant of present day Greek fame,
Conquered by public debt, sloth, and socialist ideology;
Here at our lake-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty gentleman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and his name
Governor Scott Walker.
From his beacon-hand
Glows nation-wide welcome; his steady eyes command
The prairie, woods, and arbor 190 cities frame.
"Keep, ancient buckeye-type lands, your storied pomp!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your talent, your persevering,
Your over-taxed masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your union-bossed state.
Send these, the hard-working, taxation-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside our golden badger door!"

Hoosier Daddy said...

Yes Scott, those idiot founders should have checked with Allie before adding Article 4 Section 4 to the Constitution.

Is tell her to read it but as you know, it was written like 100 years ago and is hard to read.

Alex said...

I'm more interested in when the day of reckoning will come for spending more money than we have.

At that point America is so fucked up we're gonna be ready for the Bolshevik Revolution and garage can die happy.

Alex said...

Fen is completley right about democracy. It's a sham that exists to enable the masses to vote themselves the hard-earned wealth of the top 1%.

Alex said...

I'm already conceding Obama will win re-election. Logic dictates as the economy worsens that more people will side with the Democrat that promises them more government benefits(student loan forgivness, unemployment extension, other grants) over the Republican who only promises pain.

Michael said...

Allie. You do know that the Aristotle quote you use was his explanation of why Democracy is not, not, the preferred form of govt. Having never read Aristotle you would not know that and would think that using the quote makes you look smart when it actually makes you look pooly educated and a bit stupid.

Alex said...

The guy on Air America just called Kasich and the other Ohio GOP "squatters". Meaning they weren't elected or something. Thus the fascist face of the left is fully revealed. They believe in democracy only when they win.

Allie said...

Michael, you've been chasing my tail for the last several days if not weeks, go away, I'm beginning to feel politically harassed.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Careful Michael. She's liable to call her daughter, who is an attorney. And a proud liberal.

But its not harrassment to point out your errors Allie. Feel free to comment but don't get all mentstrual when someone points out your obvious lack of knowledge.

Commenting on Althouse ain't beanbag.

Allie said...

Home  >  Resources  >  Articles, Papers, and Reports

Aristotle on Democracy
Excerpt from a collection of Hans Morgenthau’s teachings
Anthony F. Lang, editor

Hans J. Morgenthau, Anthony F. Lang, Jr.

November 9, 2004


Hans J. Morgenthau

Anthony F. Lang, Jr.
The following is an abridged and edited excerpt from Political Theory and International Affairs: Hans J. Morgenthau on Aristotle's "The Politics," (Greenwood Praeger, 2004). Edited by former Carnegie Council program officer Anthony Lang, the book contains transcripts from a seminar series Morgenthau gave in the early 1970s. This excerpt is published with Greenwood Praeger's permission.

In his opening remarks to a series of graduate-level seminars on Aristotle's The Politics, Morgenthau said, "What has an old guy who lived almost 2,500 years ago have to tell us about contemporary political problems?" In this passage, he explores the ancient philosopher's thoughts on democracy.

HANS J. MORGENTHAU: Aristotle argues that of all the types of rule, perhaps the rule of the many, democracy, is the best. He argues that the many, when they meet together collectively, can surpass in quality the few.

What is the saving grace of a democracy? Obviously, and history is full of examples, a democratic rule can be outrageously deficient. Of course, so can the rule of a king or a tyrant. What is the difference between a bad totalitarian rule and a bad democratic rule? The difference is that there exists a possibility within the mechanics of democracy itself of a self-corrective. You can throw the scoundrels out! You can replace a deficient incompetent government with a decent one without interrupting the constitutional continuity within the dynamics and mechanics of the democratic process itself.

http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/articles_papers_reports/5037.html

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Speaking of point out Allie's errors.

Please fix your profile description. Talking about how your "youngest's Dococtorate of Jurisprudence" is both terrible spelling as well as incorrect. Had your leftwing little spawn attended a real law school instead of some third tier clown college, you would know that it's a "Juris Doctor."

Idiot.

Allie said...

Hoosier, do you sometimes call yourself Fransico?

Alex Ignatiev said...

Seelye has no clue what she's talking about. Almost no attorneys were for the personhood amendment, and similar measures had failed to find traction in our state legislature.

The local officials were all running away from it, especially after the proponents started lying about the initiative. In this case, Planned Parenthood of Mississippi and a large grassroots groundswell of people turned out the vote, and the proponents started saying things like, "This initiative won't actually do anything," which led a lot of people to say, "then why pass it?"

Allie said...

President Mom Jeans,
Do you think for a split second I give a fast fuck what you care? BUT I will correct my spelling. As far as I'm concerned YOU do no exist. Weak attacks on spelling only makes you look like a unhappy bitch.

Scott M said...

Weak attacks on spelling only makes you look like a unhappy bitch.

How about your weak attack on Franklin?

Hoosier Daddy said...

I have always gone by the moniker Hoosier Daddy.

So it is written.

Also, that was a nice post on Aristotle. I guess we can take as gold, the philosophical opinon of one
Political scientist.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Did I strike a nerve there?

Little too close to the mark?

Temper temper, you aren't acting very groovy.

Allie said...

Scott, who is Franklin? Benjamin Franklin, why would I attack him ,I like him, he had cool specs.

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie said...

Ah. I see now, your profile has exactly one view and that's me. LOL. Playing games again, whatever, dumb ass.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Anger is a natural reaction to being put in one's place by their intellectual betters, worry not.

That isn't very politically correct of you to use the term "bitch" however. You really ought to consider using terms that are not insensitive to the female gender.

Perhaps time to attend a liberal re-education seminar?

Allie said...

Hoosier shoo, fly away, little bug. Mad cause you're not a REAL doctor?

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Afraid you are mistaken once again, as I reside in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, and not the Hoosier State.

I will leave the sock puppetry to the likes of J and Glenn Greenwald.

But nice try though.

Allie said...

LOL, Presidents Mom, I thought you were Audie Murphy's Mom, so you got another son? Mad cause Althouse deleted all your comments a few weeks ago? Shoo fly away to your own blog.

Allie said...

Presidents Mom, why don't you just come back here to Althouse as your real self and start commenting again like a brave little fat boy, instead of playing these stupid games. I'm sure Althouse isn't really mad at you, it's OK.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I guess we will have to add lack of reading comprehension to your list of shortcomings.

The handle "President-Mom-Jeans" refers to B. Hussein's fashion choices.

Another swing and a miss from Althouse's most prolific and misinformed commentor. Sad really.

Not very chivalrous of me to be engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Such is life.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I never had a desire to go to medical school.

If you can't handle crticism Allie, maybe stick with knitting rather than political commentary.

cokaygne said...

God help me for saying this, but it seems to me that most state-to-state variations in policy these days can be explained by race. If Maine, where I live, had in its midst a large African-American population or a large illegal/undocumented population, same day registration would be gone.

Nearly all-white, all native-born states such as ME, VT, and even NH, do not see voters of another persuasion as the "other." Welfare policies are generous because we think we are helping friends and neighbors who are just down on their luck. Punishment for crime is fairly lenient because criminals are just wayward souls. Crime is fairly rare because one does not do that to one's neighbor, and if you try it, someone is going to recognize you.

So it is with same-day registration. The Republican who sponsored the bill requiring advance voter registration tried to prove that hordes of college students "from away" were voting illegally, and the Republican Attorney General could not support that charge.

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott M said...

Scott, who is Franklin? Benjamin Franklin, why would I attack him ,I like him, he had cool specs.

Along with the actual references in the Constitution, this quip in particular refers to Franklin's response when asked what type of government the convention had decided on.

"A republic, if you can keep it."

is the direct quote if memory serves.

Allie said...

Ad hominem attacks usually piss people off, criticism is another thing altogether. A psychologist should know that.

Allie said...

Ah Scott I usually like discussing things with you, but I feel the need for a nice walk , sometimes it gets very ugly here, makes me feel like looking at something very beautiful, like the lake and ducks, geese, goose shit anything .

Fen said...

HANS J. MORGENTHAU: Aristotle argues that of all the types of rule, perhaps the rule of the many, democracy, is the best. He argues that the many, when they meet together collectively, can surpass in quality the few.

Aristotle was WRONG. The Athenian Democracy fell prey to demagogues and sophists.

Athens is the reason Rome chose a Republic over a Democracy.

Seeing Red said...

One man one vote. We shall see what 2012 brings us.


Mark this day down, I actually agree with Allie.


I don't think women should vote either.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ad hominem attacks like calling me a bug? Sorry if my critique of your failure to understand our form of government is an ad hominem attack in your eyes.

I'm not a psychologist. I got a C in psychology.

Karmakshanti said...

"Sorry. These are very interesting issues, and I've been following the Wisconsin iterations of the collective bargaining and voter ID issues."

The matter is really a simple one. In Ohio the public has the means to check an obnoxious and ideologically factional law before it is put into effect. It did so. By a landslide. In a record setting turnout for an off-year election. Just like the record setting petition signature numbers that put the issue on the ballot in the first place.

Let's tease out the implications of this. This is a far better situation than Wisconson and other states where the habit seems to be attempted recalls of the ideologues. It actually makes the people's wishes known. On matters such as this, Ohioans, of all political persuasions, are truly conservative, as opposed to the usual "conservative" witless hysterics led through the nose by greedy sociopaths that brought us the law in the first place.

I make no bones about the fact that I despise John Kasich. He is the archetype of the politician bought and sold by professional stock manipulators and the licensed embezzlers we are pleased to call CEO's in the country.

But,having grown up in Ohio, the notion of agitating for his impeachment or his recall, merely because I despise both him and his politics, grates very painfully on my sense of what democracy is about, and I certainly would scruple to do it. The people of Ohio elected him, so they should put up with him for the duration of his term as long as his conduct is not obviously criminal. But they don't have to put up with essentially malice driven and spuriously "cost-cutting" law. And they are not going to in this case.

And that's a good thing no matter whose law, drafted either in a corporate boardroom or a union hall, goes down to defeat.

Oh, yes, and the mere fact that they passed a "symbolic" constitutional change that received virtually no prior publicity, that they largely read for the first time on the actual ballot, and was couched in terms of "brush your teeth after every meal and change your underwear every day without fail", is largely irrelevant to all this, as it will be to whatever happens in 2012.

Voter ID issues? The sole purpose of most of these "voter ID" laws is to disenfranchise voters of the opposite party. Period. The greedy sociopaths know this, even if the witless hysterics don't.

"Actually, it would have been great news for Democrats if Mississippi voters had gone for the extreme anti-abortion law. Democrats would have used that result to scare, motivate, and manipulate voters. It's their very favorite wedge issue."

Give me a break! The backbone of modern "conservatism" among the grassroots is one-issue politics about repealing Roe v. Wade. Just like the backbone of it in the power lunches of the sociopaths is the repeal of all taxes on anyone with a seven-figure income.

By the way, would you have found it such great news for anybody if it had passed in Wisconson?

hombre said...

Karmakshanti wrote: Voter ID issues? The sole purpose of most of these "voter ID" laws is to disenfranchise voters of the opposite party.

I think you meant "disenfranchise illegal voters ...." And Dems never worry about this because they always have the edge on illegal votes.

Give me a break! The backbone of modern "conservatism" among the grassroots is one-issue politics about repealing Roe v. Wade. Just like the backbone of it in the power lunches of the sociopaths is the repeal of all taxes on anyone with a seven-figure income.

And the backbone of "progressivism" is promoting buggery and confiscatory taxation and involuntary servitude of the employer class. Right?

Do you even know a conservative?

How do you simplistic thinking, left wing practitioners of nincompoopery get so pompous.

hombre said...

Of course, someone without a legal right to vote (or vote more than once) can't actually be disenfranchised.

Michael said...

Allie. It would help you if you read Aristotle I know it is easier to find and cut and paste pieces that support your wrong views but you would be hugely rewarded if you read Aristotle's own work. You would then know that the quote you used was from his view that a pure democracy was the rule of the mob and not to be desired.

Michael said...

Allie "Michael, you've been chasing my tail for the last several days if not weeks, go away, I'm beginning to feel politically harassed."

No, i will no go away. How you "feel" perhaps impedes how you think. If you want to invoke Aristotle have the good manners to know something about his philosophy. Otherwise, dont bother us with your cut and paste

B said...

Karmakshanti, what you call ideologues other people consider fiscal adults. Union money won last night in Ohio, not the citizens.

But hey, it's your state, so have at it. Just do not expect citizens of the states that are showing some fiscal sanity to feel very receptive to their taxes going to bail out Ohio. Your governor knows this and has already made it quite plain that Ohio has to clean it's own house, and without reining in public sector employment costs, the only option will shrinking the numbers of public employees.

I wish your state a joyful future dealing with the consequences of selling your vote.

sorepaw said...

Aristotle on Democracy
Excerpt from a collection of Hans Morgenthau’s teachings
Anthony F. Lang, editor


Allie,

You'll be much better off reading a good translation of Aristotle's Politics.

He was not an advocate of democracy, as it was practiced in those days.

sorepaw said...

WE are the government.

Really, Allie?

I look at the President of the United States on TV. I've never been the President.

I see a bunch of US Senators on TV. I've never been a Senator.

I see a bunch more members of the House of Representatives on TV. I've never been one of them either.

I see various Secretaries of this and Undersecretaries of that. Never held any of those positions.

And on and on, down the line.

I've never even been a city council member or a county tax assessor-collector.

The vast majority of us are not the government, never have been, and never will be.

We get to vote, occasionally, on who occupies a few positions in the government. And this, as a rule, is an improvement on not being able to vote on who occupies them.

But it doesn't make us the government.

Karmakshanti said...

@hombre

I don't know about pompous, but I certainly am frank. I owe no one anything and am not angling for anything from anyone, so I speak my mind, whether wise or foolishly I leave to others to judge.

I don't go out much, but I have formed my opinion of "conservatives" based on eight years of reading online conservative journalism, personal political blogging (which I have not done in some time), and reading comment pages like this one.

I have largely not been impressed by their intellectual coherence, capacity to process plain facts, or their willingness to acknowledge one of the most practical pieces of political advice I know, from Lyndon Johnson, "Don't spit in the soup. We've all got to eat."

But, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I'll summarize my own progressive principles briefly and will certainly read with pleasure any such summary of your conservative ones you might make.

First, "promotion of the general welfare" of the people and the placement of the "public interest" ahead of any private interest. For the last 30 years our economy has been run to serve the interests of the insurance business, the stock trading business, and the energy business, and not the general welfare, which has suffered massively in the interval.

Second, "the level playing field" in matters of saving and accumulating wealth. Those in this country who have a yearly income less than $250,000 a year have had their opportunities to save and accumulate wealth at low risk levels systematically decimated over those same 30 years. They just lost the last major one available to those of middle to low income: housing equity. There are none left.

Third, "Taxes + Borrowing = Services". I've constantly heard people say they pay too many taxes. I've recently heard many say that the Government does too much borrowing. I've also heard some people say, "Those lazy, shiftless, greedy people over there get too many services!" (fill in the blanks yourself, you've lots of choices)

I've yet to hear anyone say that they get too many services. Or show any clear understanding of the enormous number of services they do receive for an incredibly small percentage of taxes that they pay.

We all live in an unbelievable cocoon of safety, comfort, and security costing trillions of dollars that "somebody else" will pay for.

There is no somebody else. Taxes + Borrowing = Services is an algebra that applies to everybody.

I have my own hobbyhorses to ride among progressive issues, but they don't really matter. What does matter is the standpoint you start from. I have read little over the years that suggests most "conservatives" give that much thought.

But I'm always ready to read it, if its there.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Thanks, but I had a typo, should read:

Shorter Allie: "The Corporations have co-opted the Government! We need the Government to protect us!"


Shorter Fen: "The corporations have co-opted the government! We need to allow more money and power and political influence to accrue to the corporations!"

Gong!

Fen said...

Cute, but I never made any comments here re the relationship between Corps & Government.

I merely pointed out the logical flaw in liberals demanding the Government protect them from a Government courrupted by Corps.

Ritmo just doesn't get it.

Fen said...

The backbone of modern "conservatism" among the grassroots is -

to get spending under control before you take any more of our money.

damikesc said...

Ritmo I have a simple question: if the government wasn't meddling in so many things....would businesses have any reason to spend on lobbying? Walmart and Microsoft famously avoided lobbying for years...until their rivals lobbies and got governments to interfere in their business. Now they lobby out of self defense.