November 24, 2011

The pepper-spray cop's "dissonantly casual body language in the context of violence brings to mind the photos from Abu Ghraib..."

"... Lynndie England smiling and giving the camera a thumbs-up in front of tortured prisoners. And, in a fit of macabre recursion, some of the casually pepper-spraying cop meme images reference those very photos from Abu Ghraib. Lynndie and [John] Pike, two 'bad apples' taking the fall for systemic problems with the institutions each represent."

Says Xeni Jardin in a Guardian piece that I found after I noticed (on my own) the similarity between the Pike and England iconic photographs. Jardin was thinking of the thumb's-up photo. I was thinking of the man-on-a-leash photo, which seems more apt because of the impassive expression, though, I must say, looking at England's face now, after seeing the pepper-spray cop, I'm seeing some human expression, a mournful look. Expression is relative. If we get used to completely dead faces, the subtlest tinge of humanity will pop.

(And here's the special Thanksgiving iteration of the pepper-spray meme.)

93 comments:

Anton said...

First of all, the prisoners weren't tortured at Abu Ghraib. That's the Left's narrative. They had panties put on their heads. People pay to have that done to them in NYC.

Secondly, what would you rather have the unfortunate police officer doing, jumping around with the glee he surely felt in his heart?

DADvocate said...

Psychologically, it's possible to associate any two events. This demonstrates that principle.

TWM said...

This is so much ado about nothing. It's not a "Kent State moment." Not even close,although the left desperately wishes it to be.

As to Abu Ghraib, Anton is correct that it was not torture. But it was prisoner abuse. The people responsible were punished as well they should have been.

America's Politico said...
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America's Politico said...
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Hagar said...

I think I am more worried about minds that can tie these events together.

Psychedelic George said...

I picked up my freshman son at college two days ago.

I would not underestimate the impact these Occupy events are having on college kids.

Think of today as being the equivalent of 1965.

Lots of idealism back around then. Lots of peace...love...dove.

Fast forward to 1968, 1969, 1970....no so much idealism then.

The situation got worse. Things got larger. Uglier. Days of Rage.

Remember the Credibility Gap? The Silent Majority?
.
I told my son to look up the Bonus Army. 1930. The Mall. Patton. MacArthur. Fixed bayonets. Nausea gas. 55 wounded. 1 dead, a baby.

We are at the very beginning of this. When the Great Depression started, I doubt people called it the "Great Depression" in 1930. Europe has yet to go down. Neither has China.

I will guess that the more cruel the police response is perceived to be, the more powerful the Occupy movement will grow and the more sympathy it will arouse.

It would not surprise me if we saw one or two college kids set themselves on fire, ala monks in Vietnam. Think about them apples.

traditionalguy said...

The image from UC Davis is perfect for an exterminator spraying to rid the area of pests such as mosquitoes.

The Occupy victims have chosen to become pests willing to suck rich men's blood to feed themselves.

Insects versus humans is the oldest war on the planet earth...and the Queen of the Insect Army lives inside our White House urging her armies of insects on.

Life gets reverts to such war quickly when dehumanizing skills replace a people's faith in God.

Ned said...

"I will guess that the more cruel the police response is perceived to be, the more powerful the Occupy movement will grow and the more sympathy it will arouse. "

Ya think??? That's all they have..."hey, feel sorry for me!" It's the liberal sole reason for being...which is why it is highlighted on a liberal government teacher blog...duh!

TWM said...

"I picked up my freshman son at college two days ago.

I would not underestimate the impact these Occupy events are having on college kids."

My college senior son came home yesterday. He thinks the OWSers are morons. Both anecdotes obviously, but I'm betting there are more of mine than yours. Way more.

"It would not surprise me if we saw one or two college kids set themselves on fire, ala monks in Vietnam. Think about them apples."

For any OWSer-type college kid to do this it would require either self-sacrifice or insanity, and probably both. While it's obvious that many of the OWSers are borderline insane, it's also obvious they know nothing of self-sacrifice, so I don't see this happening.

Allie said...

Traditional Guy said;
The image from UC Davis is perfect for an exterminator spraying to rid the area of pests such as mosquitoes.

The Occupy victims have chosen to become pests willing to suck rich men's blood to feed themselves.

Insects versus humans is the oldest war on the planet earth...and the Queen of the Insect Army lives inside our White House urging her armies of insects on.

Life gets reverts to such war quickly when dehumanizing skills replace a people's faith in God.

11/24/11 9:17 AM

Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others? Not a Christaian thing to do, ask the Jews.

TWM said...

"Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others? Not a Christaian thing to do, ask the Jews."

Okay folks, Godwin moment or not?

Curious George said...

"It would not surprise me if we saw one or two college kids set themselves on fire"

Quick, get the marshmallows!

dbp said...

It is exactly like when Colonel Nguyễn Ngọc Loan executed the VC insurgent.

traditionalguy said...

Allie...That was my point. If we revert to seeing dehumanized Rich Capitalists and dehumanized insect colonies building nests, then we are totally unhinged from our traditional views of men as God sees them in scripture.

That leaves us only a social Darwinism value system that seems to believe that we will be among the small survivor group that has taken life, liberty and property from the de-humanized.

EDH said...

What I liked was how Lt. Pike displayed the pepper spray as a warning to the crowd before using it.

Psychedelic George said...

While the Occupy movement is not at all my cup of meat, I am continually astounded by the venom it arouses, especially since this whole thing is just getting started.

This ain't nothing but very, very small numbers of kids sitting around. In the 1960s, there were hundreds of thousands of people protesting.

In my quaint college town, already the police have been out on main street with automatic weapons, literally arresting anyone in sight. Not saying that was right or wrong. But it does not take much for one little accident to touch off something much bigger.

Rose said...

Most kids I know who managed to get into UCDavis (no small feat) are focused on keeping their grades up, and getting to class, appreciating what they've got - who has time to be #Occupying?

If that's your kid, and you're fronting the tuition...how do you feel about them missing class and jeopardizing their grades, and any chance of getting a job after school is over?

And if you're an #Occupier, who presumable feels SO strongly about the cause that you're willing to go to jail or be tear-gassed or pepper-sprayed for it - why should we feel sorry for you? You got what you wanted... No? Now no whining. Now suing. Take it like a man.

Buncha Sheep. No pride in that. We educate you for 13 years to help you be better than this.

Happy Thanksgiving. Back to the cooking. :)

TWM said...

"In my quaint college town, already the police have been out on main street with automatic weapons, literally arresting anyone in sight. Not saying that was right or wrong. But it does not take much for one little accident to touch off something much bigger."

Care to link to any news story where the police are "literally arresting anyone in sight" with their guns drawn? Much less automatic weapons being pointed at people? I've seen a lot of OWSers arrested but no guns have been drawn in any of those videos or photos, so I'm thinking this would be big news. Cops always carry a weapon but carrying does not equate to using or even preparing to use.

Jay said...

Hysterical.

The left simply can't help themselves.

Jay said...

Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others?

Don't worry allie, with their dress, demeanor, and political ideas, they've dehumanized themselves.

garage mahal said...

Clearly, OWS needs to take advantage of the 2nd amendment and start arming themselves.

sorepaw said...
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edutcher said...

The cop's manner makes me think he's put up with these morons for days and he's had way more than enough - now that the order to disperse has been given, he's at least going to enjoy it.

Anton said...

First of all, the prisoners weren't tortured at Abu Ghraib. That's the Left's narrative. People pay to have that done to them in NYC.

Yes, humiliation can bring big bucks.

Also, it was a few bad apples in one MP company, not the whole Army. The old Vietnam lies just don't fly the way they used to.

Keep in mind, too, the Lefties are getting desperate. People were supposed to be on the side of the Occupation by now.

TWM said...

"Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others? Not a Christaian thing to do, ask the Jews."

Okay folks, Godwin moment or not?


Only if Der Fuhrer or any of his minions is mentioned specifically.

TWM said...

"Clearly, OWS needs to take advantage of the 2nd amendment and start arming themselves."

You haven't been paying attention, garage, they have been arming themselves. Dozens of weapons have been found during these cleanups of their camps. Even a gun or two.

TWM said...

"Only if Der Fuhrer or any of his minions is mentioned specifically."

I agree, but it was awfully close.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Clearly, OWS needs to take advantage of the 2nd amendment and start arming themselves.


Why, so they can carry out more rapes? (and you can pretend it isn't the protesters doing the raping, of course)

Jeff with one 'f' said...

"Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others? Not a Christaian thing to do, ask the Jews."

Ironic considering the repeated displays of anti-semitism at the occupations...

Joanna said...

I'd rather have cops doing their job dispassionately than passionately. Passion can pervert perception of truth.

Jed said...

At the beginning of this video, they consent to being sprayed. All sympathy lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4406KJQMc

Chip S. said...

Okay folks, Godwin moment or not?

No.

When you refer to people you disagree with as vermin you can bank on replies like Allie's.

madAsHell said...

It would not surprise me if we saw one or two college kids set themselves on fire, ala monks in Vietnam.

I remember 18. A lot of people just went off the rails: drugs, alcohol, sex, mental illness. I don't think it's correct to tie their despair to socio-political events.

Although, I am aware that some will make that association to advance their agenda....like Mr(?). Xeni Jardin.

Robert Cook said...

"While the Occupy movement is not at all my cup of meat, I am continually astounded by the venom it arouses...."

That's because, Psychedelic George, while Americans love to flatter themselves about how great and wonderful and virtuous and exceptional we and our country are because we have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights--handed down by God to his chosen servants, donchaknow?--when any Americans dare exercise their "god-given rights" to complain about the state of things it is the expression of spoiled brats who don't know how good they've got it! Everything's perfect...except for those complaining that everything's not perfect! Fuck them!

"In my quaint college town, already the police have been out on main street with automatic weapons, literally arresting anyone in sight. Not saying that was right or wrong."

If that's happening, you know it is wrong, terribly, horribly wrong. Don't equivocate about what you know to be true.

William said...

Perhaps their casual body language is a result of their feeling that they are not inflicting great pain or irreparable harm on the students. The students were made to suffer a certain amount of discomfort. This level apparently exceeds the tolerance of the Chancellor, but it does not exceed that of all civilized society.

Robert Cook said...

"I'd rather have cops doing their job dispassionately than passionately."

Oh, you can see great passion in many of the videos of cops beating up OWS protesters around the country, but I think it bespeaks a lack of humanity to see a cop inflict abuse and physical violence on a person or persons with dispassion.

Philip K. Dick called such humans androids. (Burgess called them "clockwork oranges.")

Unfeeling creatures who simulate the appearance of living human beings, but who are really automatons, mere reflex machines.

A person who can inflict torment on another unfeelingly is psychologically dead.

EDH said...

What about the poor work-study students who have to peel opnions in the school cafeteria?

Weep for them!

Paco Wové said...

"I picked up my freshman son at college two days ago."

FWIW*, I picked up my freshman daughter yesterday, and in all the many things she told me about on the way home (which mainly seemed to involve witnessing excessive consumption of alcohol) OWS didn't come up once.

*Because, remember, the plural of 'anecdote' is 'a bunch of anecdotes'.

Joanna said...

Allie said... Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others? Not a Christaian thing to do, ask the Jews.

The entire concept of 99%/1% promotes dehumanization.

-"You aren't a person; you are your income."
-"The "rich" are responsible for my personal woes."
-"The "rich" are responsible for the evils of the country."
-"Eat the rich"

With no true evidence WRT individuals' characters, the Occupiers have attached definitions, characteristics, and qualities to the entire group of supposed 1%ers. Based on presumed actions of a few, the Occupiers use anecdotal reasoning to define and blame the whole group of "The One Percent".

In what way is 1% branding not bigotry? In what way are the Occupiers not promoting hate crimes when they carry faux 1%er heads-on-pikes? In what way is this collectivized hate not dehumanizing?

Then: It's the Jews' fault!
Now: It's the 1%'s fault!

edutcher said...

Robert Cook said...

"While the Occupy movement is not at all my cup of meat, I am continually astounded by the venom it arouses...."

That's because, Psychedelic George, while Americans love to flatter themselves about how great and wonderful and virtuous and exceptional we and our country are because we have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights--handed down by God to his chosen servants, donchaknow?--when any Americans dare exercise their "god-given rights" to complain about the state of things it is the expression of spoiled brats who don't know how good they've got it! Everything's perfect...except for those complaining that everything's not perfect! Fuck them!


No, we know everything isn't perfect, largely because people like Cook are trying to subvert the Constitution and the Bill of Rights on a daily basis and we have to clean up the mess they make.

John Lynch said...

Yeah, the cop looked like he was doing a chore.

"Dear, can you go water the hippies?"

Trashhauler said...

At the risk of putting the pepper spray incident into context, what was the purpose of the spraying? The idea was to force the protestors to move.

Now, think of the alternatives. A 9mm in a kneecap would have worked, as would the application of billyclubs to a few brainpans. Presumably, the police decided those options might have been taken wrongly by the press.

Grapple with the protestors, you say? Why does anyone think the police are eager (or required) to risk injury from people who can turn violent once you lay your hands on them?

Paco Wové said...

The entire concept of 99% / 1% promotes dehumanization.

Absolutely.

John Lynch said...

Also, the protests are designed to provoke violence. So why are they unhappy when it happens? They got their police brutality photo op. Why aren't they happy?

Paddy O said...

Xeni, and her BoingBoing compatriots, are as full on propagandists for OWS as can be.

rhhardin said...

I say it's good.

He's not mad at them, not acting out of anger, just following through on what he said was going to happen.

It's a force of nature: obey the lawful order of the police or take your own responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Abu Graib wasn't lawful.

JohnJ said...

The Guardian:

“…it wasn't just the violence in those images that captured the world's attention – it was the surreal juxtaposition of that violence with Pike's oddly casual body language and facial expression.”

OK, fair enough, but “violence”? OWS longs for its Kent State moment and it gets…pepper-spray?

Perhaps the most annoying legacy of these recent “movements” is the damage they’ve done to the language. “Shame” and “democracy” come to mind. And now, according to Michael Moore, we’re to equate pepper-spray with the violence of Tiananmen Square?

When did the left become so flippantly histrionic?

Paddy O said...

Which means there's a very intentional media blitz to make the government look as bad as possible and the OWS look as noble as possible.

But, the lines are no where that clear. Because the government involved is generally Democratic, voted in by these same OWS folks.

In virtually every situation it's Liberal leadership attacking liberal protesters. So, why at all should we see the OWS folks as people we should trust?

iftheshoefits said...

All this hoohah about the pepper spray, and now these clowns want to stand between black Friday shoppers and Wal-mart, when they open their doors?

Seriously. If I had to choose between the two, I know which one I'd take - the one where the chance of death or serious injury is nil.

Trashhauler said...

Robert Cook wrote:

"A person who can inflict torment on another unfeelingly is psychologically dead."

What rubbish. The very worst abuses, both in peace and war, are always carried out by enthusiastic, one might say passionate, characters. It is the true believer who can more easily submerge their own humanity and ignore the humanity of their victims.

If you are ever in a truly violent situation, you better hope you are dealing with dispassionate professionals. Because once emotion reigns, all the rules of proper conduct quickly go by the board.

Paddy O said...

Also, again, these students are protesting for more benefits for themselves while, in essence, arguing the state should cut benefits for the poor and needy and others.

They are not protesting for freedom, they are protesting to protect their privilege and baubles.

OWS is the protest of the oppressors against daring to dispute their privilege.

iftheshoefits said...

Also, the protests are designed to provoke violence. So why are they unhappy when it happens? They got their police brutality photo op. Why aren't they happy?

This is what happiness looks like, to some.

Chip S. said...

This "99 percent" meme is older than a lot of you might think.

It goes back at least to 1896, when William Jennings Bryan spoke at Yale, running for President on an anti-Wall Street, anti-gold-standard platform:

At the mention of the Republican Party, the students began yelling, jeering, and bellowing McKinley's name. Uncharacteristically, Bryan lost his temper: "I have been so used to talking to young men who earn their own living," he shouted, "I hardly know what language to use to address myself to those who desire to be known, not as creators of wealth, but as the distributers of wealth which somebody else created." A sophomore later recalled Bryan's next words, later denied by the candidate: "Ninety-nine out of a hundred students in this university are sons of the idle rich." The word ninety-nine had the effect of a starter gun at a race. "Ninety-Nine! Nine, NIne, Ninety-Nine!" the class of '99 chanted until Bryan abandoned the stage in disgust.

-Sylvia Nasar, Grand Pursuit

Robert Cook said...

"Also, the protests are designed to provoke violence."

And, you know this...how?

"Because the government involved is generally Democratic, voted in by these same OWS folks."

There is no "Democratic" or "Republican" government, there is just: those in power. When there is a healthy power structure, it is concerned with and responsive and answerable to the people; when it is corrupt--as all power structures come to be, even if they were not initially--it is concerned only with its own prerogatives and continue aggrandizement of its authority and prerogatives.

What we have today is a corrupt power structure.

Robert Cook said...

"If you are ever in a truly violent situation, you better hope you are dealing with dispassionate professionals."

A true professional would abhor applying violence unnecessarily. Pike was not a professional but a stooge who didn't even question whether spraying the crowd with pepper spray was proper, required, or advisable, and a sadist who had no thought for the human beings on whom he was inflicting needless abuse.

A dispassionate sadist is as much to be feared and abhorred as a passionate sadist, and is the more disturbed, psychologically.

Trashhauler said...

Robert Cook wrote:

"Pike was not a professional but a stooge who didn't even question whether spraying the crowd with pepper spray was proper, required, or advisable, and a sadist who had no thought for the human beings on whom he was inflicting needless abuse."

Clearly arguing facts not in evidence. By, hey, why spoil a good narrative?

JohnJ said...

“…and a sadist who had no thought for the human beings on whom he was inflicting needless abuse.”

Add “sadist” to my earlier list.

John Lynch said...

Agreeing with RC on this one. Power corrupts, apparently.

The Wisconsin protests "occupied" the state capitol and nothing like this happened.

Chip S. said...

Agreeing with RC on this one. Power corrupts, apparently.

Now if we can just get RC to imagine Pike as a member of the Independent Payment Advisory Board maybe he'll start to apply the same concept to other aspects of state power.

John Lynch said...

RC-

They provoke violence by refusing to budge except by force. If people want to speak, fine, but surely we don't have a right to squat wherever we want?

If people squat on your lawn, you call the police. If the squatters don't leave then, the police have to remove them. That's force. By refusing to compromise or follow the law, the squatters provoke a forceful response.

Really, the wish-fufillment aspect of these protesters getting sprayed is important. That's how they got so much attention. It's intentional. That doesn't excuse the police for playing into it.

There are plenty of ways to get a message out. Occupy is pushing the absolute limit of free speech to get a reaction. Well, they got one. Why aren't they happy?

Trashhauler said...

"What we have today is a corrupt power structure."

Let's see, in what British film did we witness the following:

"Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"

"Filthy peasant."

Paddy O said...

"There is no "Democratic" or "Republican" government, there is just: those in power."

So why should I listen to you and put your ideas into power?

There certainly is differences in power structures that are more or less accountable to particular set of voters. When a movement refuses to hold those they vote into power accountable for the power that's wielded, then those people are simply tools.

What is at issue is not an overturning of power structures, the OWS folks want to have the power, not to change the structure of power. Which is exactly my point in California. We have the older generation of OWS type folks at every level of power in our government and education.

Trashhauler said...

"By refusing to compromise or follow the law, the squatters provoke a forceful response."

And just think it through. What were the options (aside from the gun or billyclub mentioned before)? Water cannon? Dogs? Beanbag shot? One suspects what they are really upset about is that the police didn't engage them in a hand-to-hand scrum producing lots of juicy pictures.

Pike should have lit up a cigar and threatened to blow smoke in their faces. Doubtless, they would have scattered in terror at the threat of second hand death.

Bill said...

Meh. The protestors got what they wanted. They get to be portrayed as the victims.

And Anton and Joanna have it right. If his body language had been more animated, they would have criticized that as well.

In retrospect it didn't look like the spray made them any more compliant so I guess it was the wrong call, but I suspect there's more going on in these situations than is readily obvious from just watching the videos.

gutless said...

The UC Davis blitzkrieg was an outrage of the highest unspeakable order. Oh, the humanity. One struggles to find a parallel in history. I'm thinking maybe the Turkish slaughter of the Armenians or perhaps going back farther Herod's slaughter of the innocents. What has become of our country?

John Lynch said...

And I think that if we are going to psychoanalyze a police officer based on a few seconds of his life it's fair to guess at the motivations of a group of protesters.

Occupy has a record now. It's fair to look at it.

Fen said...

Whats ironic is the the "Kent State moment" is another media myth.

The protestors surrounded the National Guard unit shouting "Kill! Kill! Kill!" and threw chunks of cinderblock at them. NG tried to disperse them with tear gas but the wind didn't cooperate and the protestors just picked them up and threw them back. Along with more chunks of cinderblock.

Then the NG panicked.

So, the entire "kent state massacre" meme from the MSM is just more leftist propaganda. Makes you wonder what else they got away with.

cubanbob said...

RC no decent American would dispute their right to protest. However their right to protest does not trump other people's right to go about their lives. By blocking access they disrupt other people's rights and the cops after giving them ample warning to step aside enforced the rights of the others. If these OWS people are thinking that their obnoxious foolishness is going to get them brownie points with the electorate (channeling their faux vision of the 60's) then they ought to remember that Nixon was elected and then re-elected in a landslide. Maybe the OWS folks are unwitting dupes in a devilishly brilliant RNC operation. One never knows.

Fen said...

Allie: "Do we not risk losing our own humanity when we dehumanize others?"

Joanna: The entire concept of 99%/1% promotes dehumanization.

-"You aren't a person; you are your income."
-"The "rich" are responsible for my personal woes."
-"The "rich" are responsible for the evils of the country."
-"Eat the rich"


Thank you for saying that. Note that Allie fled the thread. She's not really interested in the things she lectures us about. Not when goes against her own self-interest.

cubanbob said...

Fen said...

In then end of the day what did the Kent State provocateurs accomplish? Not much since Nixon was re-elected. Perhaps it didn't occur to them that the protestors pissed off the majority of the electorate instead of enraging them against the government.

Fen said...

Robert Cook: ?--when any Americans dare exercise their "god-given rights" to complain about the state of things it is the expression of spoiled brats who don't know how good they've got it!

Anyone recall *anything* by Robert Cook on this when the Tea Party was being maligned as racist?

Thought not. Fuck off Cook. You're just another socialist weasel who doesn't really believe in the things he lectures the rest of us about.

Fen said...

Police officers have been injured by the protestors. Where is the MSM outrage over that?

Chip S. said...

The entire concept of 99%/1% promotes dehumanization.

I disagree. Envy is a fundamental human emotion. People don't think this way about other animals, just other humans.

The Crack Emcee said...

I saw a study yesterday that found 59% of Americans have no idea what OWS is about.

I betcha the number's the same within OWS,...

BTW - Happy Thanksgiving, Everybody.

Chip S. said...

Happy Thanksgiving, Crack, and all other Althousians.

I'm a little disappointed that nobody's posted a recipe for turkey brined in pepper spray.

Joanna said...

"Our canvas is freedom/ Your blood is our paint/ We stand as one...
Like a pig you consumed/ And like a pig you will roast...
Strung up you’ll bleed/ Like the pig you became/ A symbol of hatred/ And one with no name
"

Envy?

Also: for Chip S.

JohnJ said...

“Envy?”

No, probably not “envy.”

But an almost pathological sense of entitlement and self-regard is an apt characterization, isn’t it?

rhhardin said...

"In order to get on with it, [William] Koehler makes a sharp distinction between correction and punishment, understanding that the taint of punishment may be irrevocably in any authority, and that genuine authority must do something about this. This is not a distinction between lenience and harshness; it is part of a distinction between kindness anc cruelty, or perhaps between rightness and cruelty. A sharp, two-handed, decisive upward jerk on the training lead, performed as impersonally as possible, is a correction. Irritable, nagging, coaxing tugs and jerks are punishments, as beatings are. The self-esteem of the handler gets into them, with the result that, by obeying or failing to obey, the dog takes on responsibility for the handler's emotional well-being, as we can make children or spouses responsible for our souls. This is the sort of obedience Lear wanted from his daughters. With some dogs, managing to exact a pretense of such obedience is as dangerous as it was for Lear with Goneril and Regan."

Vicki Hearne.

Chip S. said...

Joanna--Thanks for the Martha Stewart clip.

As for the other one, the lyrics you quote are much more incendiary when no accompanied by awful pseudo-music. Now I've gotta put on some Coltrane to clear that crap out of my brain.

I agree with you that envy can escalate into a dehumanization that has horrible consequences. But so can the reaction to social unrest. The original comment that Allie called out was a prime example of the latter.

iftheshoefits said...

I saw a study yesterday that found 59% of Americans have no idea what OWS is about.

I would venture that no one really "knows" what OWS is about. Although apparently 41% think that they do. And when you ask any of the 41%, you rarely if ever will get the same answer twice. From the same person, even.

Fen said...

I disagree. Envy is a fundamental human emotion.

As is Rage and Lust. There was a time when Envy was shameful. Liberals in general and OWS in particular demonstrate why its dangerous for society to be permissive of Envy.

So I hope that by claiming Envy is a fundamental emotion, you're not excusing it.


I agree with you that envy can escalate into a dehumanization that has horrible consequences. But so can the reaction to social unrest. The original comment that Allie called out was a prime example of the latter.

The "dehumanization" of the OWS morons is a consequence of their Envy - they perceive the rest of us as "the rich" that deserve to have our income stolen and given to them. So I find it odd that your first defense is of the OWS that started the "dehumanization"

For example, we can agree that violence is wrong. But I'm going to damn the perp that started it with a baseball bat, not the guy that broke the perp's arm in self-defense.

Fen said...

Geez. The commenters at The Guardian sure are idiots.

Freder Frederson said...

The people responsible were punished as well they should have been.

No they weren't. A few low level soldiers were court marshaled and convicted. No one over the rank of E-6 was convicted, a LTC was convicted but acquitted of all charges. To pretend that the torture (and it was torture) was restricted to a few bad enlisted and NCOs is absolutely impossible to believe.

Fen said...

Freder: LTC was convicted but acquitted of all charges.

Really sucks when our Justice system trumps your make-believe world of panty-induced "torture", yes?

sorepaw said...
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jr565 said...

If you watch the whole video the cop walks up to the protesters and tells them if they don't move they'll be pepper sprayed. Then the whole crowd chants "Don't you do it" or something for like a minute before the cop finally walks over and sprays them. The cops then move in and start handcuffing people.
If you don't want to be sprayed, listen to the cops. This is not Abu Ghraib, but considering how an incident involving pepper spray is equated to Abu Ghraib I can also see how Abu Ghraib was described as being open under new management and water boarding as torture most foul.
Clearly the left has a,shall I say, unrealistic expectation of what to expect when they resist arrest as well as a tendency to overstate their case when it comes to things the Bush admin did vis a vis torture.
Because as far as I can tell, Pepper spray is pretty routine. It's been in the cops arsenal for years. What makes protesters think that cops should never use it on them?

Trashhauler said...

Freder Federson wrote about Abu Ghraib:

"To pretend that the torture (and it was torture) was restricted to a few bad enlisted and NCOs is absolutely impossible to believe."

The documented mistreatment did not meet the standard of any jurisdictional definition, but never mind, you're incapable of using logic on that point.

On the issue of punishment, you see, we have this odd requirement that a person only deserves criminal punishment when they actually break a law. We could not throw officers in jail when they had not committed crimes. Still, over a dozen officers received administrative punishment of various kinds, mostly for failure to properly control the actual perps. But again, the narrative is too important to you to accept the facts.

Feel free to cite any substantive evidence that higher ups actually committed crimes. But do us a favor and cite the statute or UCMJ section that was violated in a criminal manner. Otherwise, you're simply full of it.

Trashhauler said...

"The documented mistreatment did not meet the standard of any jurisdictional definition..."

Sorry, that should have read, "The documented mistreatment did not meet the standard of any definition of torture."

gadfly said...

Its the Guardian, for God's Sake!

Not to worry, they have probably self-destructed over ClimateGate Deuce.

Revenant said...

The cop has the same body language I have when spraying my plants with bug spray.

And much the same reason for having it.

Freder Frederson said...

The documented mistreatment did not meet the standard of any jurisdictional definition, but never mind, you're incapable of using logic on that point.

What definition of torture are you using, certainly not the one in the International Convention or U.S. statute.

And need I remind you that included in the Abu Gharaib photos were ones of a dead detainee who was tortured to death by contract personnel (apparently retained by the CIA). These interrogators were not military and they did not suffer any criminal sanctions for what even the U.S. admits, was the killing of a detainee during questioning. If they weren't torturing him how did he end up dead? (And he wasn't the only one, the military admits that about 21 of the detainee deaths during the 2003--2005 period were homicides.

Fen said...

Freder: What definition of torture are you using, certainly not the one in the International Convention or U.S. statute.

How can you now appeal to a code of law after denying the authority of a justice system that found these men innocent?

miller said...

"If you don't want to be sprayed, listen to the cops. "

I like my alternative better: you don't want to be sprayed, get a better class of police officers that understand constitutional rights. But that's just me; I live in a dream world.

miller said...

"Grapple with the protestors, you say? Why does anyone think the police are eager (or required) to risk injury from people who can turn violent once you lay your hands on them?"

You could perhaps point to the place where this happened at UCDavis? Maybe you might want to look at the way they reacted to Katehi - pure silence. Not violence.

The first violence occurred after the police arrived and exceeded their orders. It went downhill after that, but I'm scratching my head to find the occurrence of violence at UCDavis.