November 6, 2011

"Paterno wasn’t charged, but if Sandusky is guilty, Paterno would be guilty..."

"... just as Penn State’s athletic director and a university vice president, who were charged with perjury and failure to report suspected child abuse on Saturday, would be guilty."

Mike Wise on the Penn State scandal.

You can’t read the 23-page grand jury report and come to any other conclusion; Penn State football and its pristine reputation apparently superseded the alleged sexual assault of a young boy — perhaps as many as eight young boys — over 15 years by Sandusky....

In Warped Sports World, the don’t-ask, don’t-tell, sweep-it-clean behavior is rationalized as loyalty, having your coach’s or teammate’s back, moving on from the problem. It’s seen as a noble quality, putting the team’s needs — the university’s needs — before your own.

168 comments:

traditionalguy said...

Can we pin it on the Pope?

Paterno is treated as if he is infallible.

Maguro said...

Thing is, Paterno is the king up there and everyone knows it. The idea that he can absolve himself of responsibility by filing a report with Tim Curley or the chief of the campus cops is absurd on its face. He runs that joint and if he'd wanted something done about Sandusky, it would've happened.

Pogo said...

"because they possibly chose to protect Penn State’s brand instead of a child"

Nice brand protection, Paterno.

Now Penn State is legally culpable for hiding the rape of minors.

Amazing how one test of character can destroy a reputation.

So I guess it's not just priests into this; even football players.

So should it just be legalized, falling under the penumbra of the newly expanded definition of marriage?

Martha said...

Mike Wise: "And because they possibly chose to protect Penn State’s brand instead of a child — a 10-year-old kid whom they never even bothered to find out the name of, according to the grand jury report — more children might have suffered because of their silence."

Similar to the Catholic sex scandals but on a smaller scale--at least Paterno did not foist the pervert Sandusky on another unsuspecting school by placing him elsewhere. But Sandusky remained free -- free to prey on innocent boys.

Levi Starks said...

The way you described "covering their back" and "loyalty" You could have just as easily been talking about law enforcement.

Roger J. said...

Harry Truman expressed it very well: the buck stops here.

Seem to me the entire PSU hierarchy is involved, apparently no one did anything to stop it.

Similarly, Donna Shalala at the U of M, and her hierarchy bears ultimately responsibility for those actions.

Academe, IMO, may be the worst institution in America for dealing with their internal problems. Something in their culture I guess.

gerry said...

I wonder how much of this goes on in college athletic programs generally?

Roger J. said...

Heaven forfend, the institutions should jeopardize their football programs--It may be time to treat college football like the professional sports programs it really is.

themightypuck said...

Be careful. You get rid of the rape and abuse of children and there goes the adult film industry.

Shouting Thomas said...

Yeah, but there's this thing called presumption of innocence.

In fact, Paterno hasn't been charged with anything. I don't have a lot of faith in reporters reading grand jury indictments.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

If and when Paterno is charged with something, I'll start considering that he might be guilty of something. So far as I can see, right now he's not guilty of much except loyalty to a lifelong friend.

I know that people think that that should be discarded the moment something involving sex abuse is alleged.

Bullshit.

Even if his friend is a sinner who has committed the alleged offenses, he is Paterno's lifelong friend. As a lifelong friend, it is Paterno's duty to stand by his friend.

Shouting Thomas said...

You folks really need to calm down and stuff this shit.

The fact that a person is alleged to be a sexual abuser is not cause to take him out on the corner and summarily execute him.

This is the feminist sex abuse hysteria of the 90s. Do you remember what that resulted in? All the crazed allegations against nursery schools that were supposedly conducting devil worship ceremonies in chambers buried deep underground?

Cool out and stop being hysterics.

Let the law take its course.

rick said...

Penn State alum here.

Two points: The Center County DA, Ray Gricar, who chose not to prosecute Sandusky in 1998, went missing in 2005 and has been declared dead.

Graham Spanier, President of Penn State, after the initial evidence surfaced, signed off on an agreement where the retired Sandusky could still use the Penn State facilities as long as he didn't bring any boys on campus.

Spanier's educational background is in counseling.

ndspinelli said...

traditionalguy, The Catholic analogy is spot on. They protected this guy like the Vatican has protected thousands of pedophile priests. An all male hierarchal enviroment protecting their own.

PETER V. BELLA said...

The cover up is always worse than the scandal.

Shouting Thomas said...

traditionalguy, The Catholic analogy is spot on. They protected this guy like the Vatican has protected thousands of pedophile priests. An all male hierarchal enviroment protecting their own.

Here we go with more bullshit.

First, the gay activist movement of the 70s pushed the Catholic Church to allow openly gay men into seminaries, and now your outraged by the result.

Second, the extent and number of priests involved in this behavior is no greater than the general populace.

Read Dorothy Rabinowitz's accounts, and you'll discover that this is mostly a moral panic created by the sex abuse hysteria of the 90s and anti-Catholicism.

gerry said...

Cool out and stop being hysterics.

The very sentiment I feel about the bigotry expressed about the Catholic Church, when only 3% of priests were accused of illicit sexual actions, and less than that were convicted of anything.

And in the huge majority of cases, sicko priests went after teenage guys, and not ten-year-old boys.

Maguro said...

The Grand Jury report is here. Pretty damning in my opinion. It's amazing how brazen this guy was.

Read it for yourself, Shouting Thomas, before you dismiss it all as feminist-inspired bullshit.

There's a lot more dirty laundry yet to come, I have no doubt.

Shouting Thomas said...

Grand Jury reports are supposed to be damning.

The entire purpose of a grand jury is to present the case against the defendant in as lurid terms as possible.

In most cases, the defendant doesn't even appear of defend himself.

Cool out. Drop the hysteria. Let the legal system play this out.

Grand jury reports don't prove anything.

gerry said...

pedophile priests

Nice alliteration, but false in fact. Homosexual priests seduced teenage boys (young men) in the great majority of cases. The problem was homosexual opportunism, not pedophilia.

Shouting Thomas said...

Here's a good place to start reading Dorothy Rabinowiz's coverage of the Catholic sex abuse issue.

There is a lot of money to be made by making allegations against the Catholic Church. You guys ever heard of shyster attorneys looking for a payday?

Lawler Walken said...

Why pick Paterno out of the crowd here? The anal rape of a 10 year old boy was witnessed by another university employee, the grad assistant who wandered into the locker room late at night and found Sandusky in the shower with the victim. And then there's his father, who decided the thing to do was call Paterno. And Paterno thought the best thing to do was call the Athletic Director who thought the best thing to do was tell the head of the University Police.

And everybody, including the University President, apparently decided that the most appropriate response here was to make sure that no more kids would be raped in that particular shower so they told Sandusky to stop bringing kids around. Not that there's any indication this ban was ever actually enforced.

A massive failure on every level by everyone involved. Happy Valley indeed.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm not saying that this is what happened, but you might want to step back and consider this...

Penn State is a big fucking fat, rich target.

It doesn't stand a chance in a civil court against an underage defendant and his family tugging on the heartstrings of a jury.

You wouldn't like to consider that that might be a possible motive for these allegations?

Shouting Thomas said...

A massive failure on every level by everyone involved. Happy Valley indeed.

An alleged massive failure.

Maguro said...

Why pick Paterno out of the crowd here?

As I explained earlier, Paterno is the guy who really calls the shots with regard to anything related to PSU football. Not the Athletic Director or even the university President. In addition to being a local legend, Paterno has made millions in salary and endorsements and has donated a lot of it to the university so he has an unbelievable amount of leverage.

There was an amusing incident earlier this decade where Tim Curley, the AD, and Graham Spanier, the President, tried to fire Paterno because the football team had been underperforming and Paterno basically told them to fuck off. Curley and Spanier slinked off with their tails betwen their legs and the idea of replacing JoePa was never broached again.

Meade said...

Arrested and released on $100,000 bond? Seems to me he's a suicide risk. I'll bet his voicemail is already filled with fans and alum suggesting methods.

Lucien said...

It would be sad indeed if the conduct of the Penn State athletic program were no better morally than that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Tell me again why the latter institution is still allowed to operate legally in this county?

Shouting Thomas said...

There was an amusing incident earlier this decade where Tim Curley, the AD, and Graham Spanier, the President, tried to fire Paterno because the football team had been underperforming and Paterno basically told them to fuck off. Curley and Spanier slinked off with their tails betwen their legs and the idea of replacing JoePa was never broached again.

You've really outdone yourself here.

Penn State is 8-1. The only Big Ten team left undefeated within the conference.

Shouting Thomas said...

Tell me again why the latter institution is still allowed to operate legally in this county?

Here, you have the evidence that this hysteria is partially motivated by political and religious hatred of the Catholic Church.

Thank you for demonstrating this, Lucien.

Lawler Walken said...

"A massive failure on every level by everyone involved. Happy Valley indeed.

An alleged massive failure."

There's nothing "alleged" about failing to report to law enforcement what was seen, what they were told. Everyone involved has testified before the grand jury about that. That's the one thing that isn't in dispute. They didn't report it to the cops. They told Dad, and a football coach and an athletic director and the head of the university police and the President. But not anyone who could actually investigate and bring charges. Until now. Until they were forced to. And some of those involved are now alleged to have lied about what they were told. But they've admitted they were told something.

Meade said...

SThomas, As many as 8 boys over a 12 year period? It would be one hell of a conspiracy if the defense you are suggesting comes true.

Lem said...

So should it just be legalized, falling under the penumbra of the newly expanded definition of marriage?

Pogo.. those are fighting words.

I dont have your back ;)

Pastafarian said...

Lem, I can't believe you just Rickrolled me. You'll pay for that one, my friend.

Re the allegations: This doesn't look good for anyone involved, but that includes the grad assistant who the article describes as "traumatized" by witnessing an assault. If Paterno is guilty of something than so is this grad assistant, since they both did the same thing: They reported the assault to their professional superiors, instead of reporting it to the police.

Shouting Thomas said...

Everyone involved has testified before the grand jury about that.

Here, we have another person who doesn't understand the nature of grand jury proceedings.

Grand jury proceedings are not held to the standard of proof that will be required at trial.

Grand jury proceedings don't prove things. Grand jury proceedings produce a true bill containing allegations.

Shouting Thomas said...

SThomas, As many as 8 boys over a 12 year period? It would be one hell of a conspiracy if the defense you are suggesting comes true.

Then nursery school hysteria was almost beyond belief, too, wasn't it?

As I've said, I don't have a clue what happened.

What's the problem with waiting for the legal system to play out?

Stephen A. Meigs said...

Even if his friend is a sinner who has committed the alleged offenses, he is Paterno's lifelong friend. As a lifelong friend, it is Paterno's duty to stand by his friend.

Do you mean by this, Shouting Thomas, that Paterno should stand by his lifelong friend even if he knew his friend committed the alleged offenses? No way.

drozz said...

Psu does have a history of covering things up. Like professor Mann's role in climategate.

Shouting Thomas said...

Do you mean by this, Shouting Thomas, that Paterno should stand by his lifelong friend even if he knew his friend committed the alleged offenses? No way.

Yes, I mean precisely that.

A man who would abandon a lifelong friend over any issue is not much of a friend.

If Sandusky is guilty, he will need his friends to help him.

This is similar to the role of the Catholic Church. The Church exists to help sinners.

By standing by Sandusky, I mean that Paterno should remain his friend, continue to offer him his support and help him to find forgiveness and redemption, if he is indeed guilty.

Yes, Paterno should stand by his friend. This in no way amounts to condoning or excusing these crimes, if indeed Sandusky committed them.

Lawler Walken said...

"Grand jury proceedings are not held to the standard of proof that will be required at trial."

Oh, I get it. The GJ is part of the conspiracy as well.

Nobody told the cops. Spin it however you want, but nobody went to the police.

Shouting Thomas said...

Lawler, that comment was just stupid.

Go back and read what I actually said, if you are capable of it.

Lem said...

Lem, I can't believe you just Rickrolled me. You'll pay for that one, my friend.

Fresh of that Texas judge video from the other day.. I say its perfect timing.

Pogo said...

Well, Lem, in some states, underage girls can get an abortion without their parent's knowledge.

So clearly, consent can be granted at ages as low as 12. Moreover, the request for abortion does not trigger a police investigation, even though she is a minor.

If consent is the main concern, well, the left has that issue solved. The precedence exists.

Think of that wonderful legal term penumbra.

Gay marriage.
Polygamy.
Minors.

If personal preference is the sole criterion, explain why I am wrong.

Patrick said...

From my internet juror box.

Perp is guilty. Paterno is old school naive. Penn State is guilty of failure to do their duty to kids.

Put the perp in jail. Let Paterno stop and make his side right. Get some common sense into the Penn State administration.

Maguro said...

You've really outdone yourself here.

Penn State is 8-1. The only Big Ten team left undefeated within the conference.


Sorry, meant to say ealier last decade. From 2000- 2004, PSU had 4 losing seasons in 5 years and Paterno was widely thought to have lost it.

It's all documented here: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/hschein/www/readings/athletics/Paterno.htm

Pogo said...

And Shouting is quite correct about the role of gay culture in the pederasty among priests.

Maguro said...

Try this one.

The man loves coaching and does not want to give it up. Still, such a defeat might have forced the Penn State administration into action. Of course, they tried that once before. In 2004, after an awful 4-7 season, Penn State president Gordon Spanier went to Paterno’s house to tell the coach it was time to retire.

Paterno told him to get lost
.

Everyone knows who runs things at PSU and it's not Graham Spanier or Tim Curley.

Shouting Thomas said...

Everyone knows who runs things at PSU and it's not Graham Spanier or Tim Curley.

You're offering a blog by a "sports commentator" as proof.

I would imagine that JoePa is enormously powerful at Penn State. He's contributed a large percentage of his salary to the university for years. He gave the library a large endowment.

JoePa is enormously powerful at PSU because he's brought enormous good fortune and fame to the university.

If you are a world weary old fart, like I am, you know that such things always have a negative side, too. Cannot work any other way. A man cannot be judged as a saint or a sinner. If, on balance, he does more good than harm, that's enough for me and for God.

When JoePa began coaching at PSU, Beaver Stadium seated 60,000. Today, it seats 107,000 and sells out for every game.

I wish we had some wicked old man like JoePa coaching at my alma mater, the University of Illinois.

Shouting Thomas said...

Instead, we've got the Zooker!

Illinois started out 6-0 against the cupcakes. We're likely to close the season 6-6.

Average attendance... about 45,000.

Figure out the difference between the revenue produced at UI and PSU.

Then, tell me how that JoePa is stupid and evil.

Tell me on balance whether JoePa has done more good than bad. I think the answer is obvious.

Pogo said...

"Tell me on balance whether JoePa has done more good than bad."

The problem, Shouting, is that such human judgements are not based on tallying up good vs. bad deeds.

An entire lifetime of goodwill can be erased in a single crucial moment. Not fair, but that's how it goes.

I take your note of caution against convicting too quickly, however. You sounded the same alarm about Dominique Strauss-Kahn's accuser.

Lem said...

Pogo I cant disagree with wonderful..

And I'm not saying you are wrong.. (nor right either).. I was just thinking of Palladians point.. About how a lot of issues discussed here come to somehow blaming the gays. Those are not his exact words.. I'm paraphrasing.

But your point of a seemingly hierarchy (if you will) of consent is well taken.

To the Left, some 'consents' are more equal than others.

Curious George said...

"Shouting Thomas said...

A man cannot be judged as a saint or a sinner. If, on balance, he does more good than harm, that's enough for me and for God."

So by this standard you're okay with Jerry Sandusky, too. I mean his foundation helped thousands of kids, and he only assraped ten or so.

RigelDog said...

This is like a punch in the gut. I am a Penn State alum and also a former assistant district attorney for Centre County. I was at Penn State yesterday, taking a college tour with my son. The story had not yet hit the headlines as we were told by our student tourguides about how awesome Graham Spanier, Joe Paterno, and Penn State football is. I don't know that I can agree, after reading the grand jury report. I can say that I worked with Ray Gricar and it is unimaginable to me that he would have swept this under the rug.

Tim said...

Few things are more corrupt than big sports at major college programs.

Curious George said...

"Pogo said...
I take your note of caution against convicting too quickly, however. You sounded the same alarm about Dominique Strauss-Kahn's accuser."

Hardly the same as a "He said she said". You have multiple kids, and multiple instances with one kid. You have multiple eye witnesses.

You also have people admitting they knew about it. Sure, what they said they were told is in dispute. So what. The circumstances required investigation by authorities.

Pogo said...

"...somehow blaming the gays"

Point taken. But I blame leftism. Libertarian gays see a shared belief and have joined with the left on this one, to their own peril.

The moral justification for Sandusky's behavior is easily made using the selfsame arguments for redefining gay marriage.

No one here has been able to argue otherwise, except to say that I am some -phobe or other.

edutcher said...

The one word that keeps popping up in the article is, "If". I saw a lot of "if"s and not a lot of established fact or convictions.

Shout, IMHO, nails it, both on presumption of innocence and how the Church has been maligned for something at least as attributable to organized homosexuality.

gerry said...

Cool out and stop being hysterics.

The very sentiment I feel about the bigotry expressed about the Catholic Church, when only 3% of priests were accused of illicit sexual actions, and less than that were convicted of anything.


.5% of all priests, IIRC.

PS Funny how the Church got all the blame and the people pushing open homosexuality in the military and same sex marriage ended up with none.

Shouting Thomas said...

So by this standard you're okay with Jerry Sandusky, too. I mean his foundation helped thousands of kids, and he only assraped ten or so.

You don't know that.

And, yeah, even if he is guilty, it is possible that he did more good than harm.

I have more experience dealing with issues of extreme sexual abuse than you can imagine. These issues are not as simple and clear cut as you would like to think they are.

Lem said...

If you are a world weary old fart, like I am, you know that such things always have a negative side, too.

I thinking the same thing.. when I thought the longevity of coach Night may have contributed to the problems he had.

From 1971–2000, Knight coached the Indiana Hoosiers..

In today's nebulous social climate it is not a good idea to hold on to a coach for too long.

Pogo said...

"Hardly the same as a "He said she said"."

Curious George, I have no doubt the assaults occurred. Paterno's culpability needs to be proven yet however.

I am prepared that all of this is true, but unwilling to string anyone up just yet, beyond Sandusky.

J said...

DICK BUTKUS?

Time to hit the showers,sonny.

Paterno reported what the witness told him about the maricon Sandusky to Curley. No cover up there, as far as reports go. Nothing to do with catholics --they're not priests--, except to the white-trash hysteria cases (and the RCC sex abuse cases hardly outnumber the WASP-evangelical cases).

Shouting Thomas said...

And, yet, Lem, Coach Knight was a great coach, and the vast majority of his players revere him.

His negative side is right out there for all to see.

Coach Knight's arrogance cost him the services of Larry Bird. You can't make a worse mistake than that.

But, hell, I wish Knight had done his coaching at the University of Illinois, too.

Lem said...

The moral justification for Sandusky's behavior is easily made using the selfsame arguments for redefining gay marriage.

Thats the problem with you Pogo.. you think we are all equal under law.. you, you 99 percenter ;)

Lawler Walken said...

'Tell me on balance whether JoePa has done more good than bad. I think the answer is obvious."

I guess it depends on who you're asking. If you're the next kid who was raped by Sandusky after the shower incident then you might not think Ole Joe is such a great guy.

Shouting Thomas said...

I guess it depends on who you're asking. If you're the next kid who was raped by Sandusky after the shower incident then you might not think Ole Joe is such a great guy.

Could be.

Then, you might want to ask the, literally, thousands of kids who went on to pro football careers, got an education, or enjoyed the facilities of PSU, you might think Ole Joe is a pretty great guy.

You seem to suffer from a lack of imagination.

Pogo said...

@Lem

Ha. I have far more problems than that, as is obvious.

Shouting Thomas said...

So, I guess I'm going to have to tell you weeping sisters of the poor something that you cannot comprehend.

The fact that a kid gets anally raped in the shower does not mean that that kid must collapse into a puddle of mud in the corner and spend the rest of his life as a basket case.

This is a stupid fantasy of a wealthy, overfed society.

I've spent considerable time in societies where getting the shit beat out of you, being raped and left for dead, etc., is a routine part of life.

Some people don't let this beat them. Instead, they go on to lead decent, productive lives. A few people do allow this to beat them, and become gibbering idiots.

The ability to respond to such tragic setbacks is a matter of character and moral strength. People do respond successfully to these things routinely.

Do you people really not know this?

David said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kit said...

So by this standard you're okay with Jerry Sandusky, too. I mean his foundation helped thousands of kids, and he only assraped ten or so.

Yes, by what I was taught - one is not wholey one or the other. The degree to which, here, is dependent on his intentions when he set up the foundation. I'll say it doesn't look good, though.

As for Knight, he interviewed here at Wisconsin, back in the day. I've wondered if my view of him would be different if he'd of ended up here.

Lawler Walken said...

Then, you might want to ask the, literally, thousands of kids who went on to pro football careers, got an education, or enjoyed the facilities of PSU, you might think Ole Joe is a pretty great guy."

Oh, please. There are thousands of colleges and universities in this country, plenty of places to play football. Let's not get melodramatic here. The people who count in a kid's life are present long before they get anywhere close to a college or its football stadium.

But then under your theory Bernie Madoff is a great guy because he gave money to charity.

This is all just an strawman argument anyway. The issue isn't whether or not Paterno has done good works. It's whether or not he had an obligation to do more than tell the athletic director when he received a report about Sandusky in the shower with a 10 year old kid. That's the issue. If he's the King of Penn State that everybody here seems to think he is, then he's the one everybody was looking to for guidance on what to do. And he passed the buck to some bureaucrat. But then maybe that's what they teach you should do at Penn State. By a professor holding a chair endowed by all the charitable giving Paterno's responsible for.

Maguro said...

The fact that a kid gets anally raped in the shower does not mean that that kid must collapse into a puddle of mud in the corner and spend the rest of his life as a basket case.

So it's all a character-building experienece, eh? Hilarious.

Jerry may have some character-building experiences in store for him as well, so maybe everyone's a winner here.

Shouting Thomas said...

Oh, please. There are thousands of colleges and universities in this country, plenty of places to play football.

No, you are wrong.

Let's start with the first fact.

I just visited an alumni fan site yesterday.

Penn State is #8 all time in sending players on to the NFL. My alma mater is #28.

If you want a career in pro football, you would be a fool to go to the U of IL, instead of PSU. In fact, you're only going to go the U of IL instead of PSU if PSU won't take you.

Your assumptions about what JoePa did or didn't do in this case are just that.

I'm inclined to believe that he wanted to believe his lifelong friend. Do you have any idea how much jealousy and hatred floats around any kind of successful business? Are you aware that backstabbing and ugly accusations are common in such an environment?

Sandusky was in charge of awarding playing time to kids on a team with national championship aspirations. He was a target. (And, I'm not making any assumptions about this guilt or innocence.)

Jay said...

David said...

Wise's story is short on facts. It's hard to fathom that Paterno had no knowledge of what was happening, but it's possible.


It is, literally, impossible.

The first allegation came about in 1988.

The culture of compassion on the University campus enabled this (Spanier yesterday: "Tim Curley and Gary Schultz operate at the highest levels of honesty, integrity and compassion"

JoePa and the President of the University should be gone.

Shouting Thomas said...

So it's all a character-building experienece, eh? Hilarious.

An idiot statement that ignores what I actually said.

You're something of a vicious asshole, aren't you? Makes me wonder what you've done in your life. You like to imagine that other people have done truly awful things. That's usually a matter of projection.

J said...

Shouting Dimwit with his great brainfart of the day--. A 10 yr old sodomized by the thug -queer Sandusky?-- "get over it".
How about taking a break from doing any more more damage to the English language, and Reason itself,dreck. Ain't it like Lynrd Skynrd night, okie doke?

Heh heh

AJ Lynch said...

I recall Sandusky's retirement was quite a surprise since he was seen as a potential replacement for JoePa. In light of this story, his early departure makes more sense and it is very hard to believe JoePa was unaware of these "issues".

Shouting Thomas said...

How many little boys do you blow in a day, J?

ndspinelli said...

ShoutingThomas, Having worked cases involving pedophile priests and having my own personal experiences as a youth in the 1960's, let me say you should stand on your head because you're talking out of your ass.

Are there people who hate the Catholic Church who are delighted w/ this scandal. Absolutely. Is that what propels this. Absolutely not. No insurance company will insure the Catholic Church. Some companies almost went bankrupt paying claims. So now your weekly donations pay the claims. And, church donations are way down. Not because of atheists and evangelicals who hate the church, but because good Catholics have said "Basta, basta!"

LarsPorsena said...

Of course the authors have been sitting on this story for awhile.
Just waiting for JoPa to break the all-time coach wins record.

J said...

Heh heh. Touched a nerve Tommy, little old tweek queer?--thats yr MO, chester--maybe like nervous that yr kiddie stuff might be unearthed?? Heh heh. You'd do well to STFU, wicca scum--andpack yr shit pedo, go back to Bama. Game's over.

Better get some back-up chester

Shouting Thomas said...

No insurance company will insure the Catholic Church. Some companies almost went bankrupt paying claims.

Yes, you should read Rabinowitz.

The Church even threw priests who were demonstrably innocent to the wolves.

Let's turn your statement on its head. Shyster lawyers know a helpless defendant when they see one. This catastrophe was a huge payday for shyster ambulance chasers. It was a lunatic feeding frenzy.

ndspinelli said...

ShoutingThomas,

Even J is making more sense than you. That should be enough for any person w/ an IQ over 80 to just quit. But, you'll double down w/ your losing take..just like all the losers @ the blackjack and craps tables.

Shouting Thomas said...

You always arrive at the end of these sessions to squawk like a demented crack head, J.

Did you just get done blowing a little boy in the shower?

I seem to do a better job of "touching a nerve" in you. At least the ones that haven't been burned out.

Every time you really get pissed, you leave threats on my weblog. I'll find out, I guess, in a few minutes whether you've descended into utter madness again.

Conserve Liberty said...

Is anyone here reminded of the Duke University Lacrosse Team? It was only 5 years ago. Nancy Grace made her career on hyping a scandal that turned out to be a complete lie.

Just 'sayin.

Shouting Thomas said...

Even J is making more sense than you. That should be enough for any person w/ an IQ over 80 to just quit. But, you'll double down w/ your losing take..just like all the losers @ the blackjack and craps tables.

You seem to be a moron, too, ndspinelli.

I've been arguing throughout this thread to let the law take its course, and to call off the lynch mob mentality.

Can you read well enough to practice the law?

ndspinelli said...

ConserveLiberty, Point taken. The big difference is that was racial, political, and happening in real time. This smells like a coverup. It may not be..but I've got a good horseshit detector on stuff like this. i detected the duke thing from day one.

Meade said...

Hey SThomas, you might want to watch that big bad defensive coordinator straw man of yours. He just might try to soap you up and squeeze your guts out.

J said...

no, fuck you, Tommy chester queer. Give us some more evidence now,scum. Buh bye

Lawler Walken said...

"Is anyone here reminded of the Duke University Lacrosse Team?"

Actually, no. The circumstances are completely different outside of the fact that there is a university connection. Nobody at Duke tried to cover anything up, if anything they went overboard to be politically correct in favoring the victim. Certainly can't say that happened here. The university didn't even try to find out the name of the 10 year old in the shower. The Duke students, accused of raping a stripper at an off-campus party, didn't have any powerful friends at their university. Sandusky, it seems, had plenty of those at Penn State.

ndspinelli said...

Shouting,

I now understand your attack on me a couple days ago when I simply said I don't believe in organized religion. You drank the opus dei Kool Aid. Just go to high mass. Sandusky will have his day in court. It doesn't look good for him, but I'll wait and read w/ a clinical mind. What disturbs even J is your lockstep Catholic Church defense. You're like those Japenese soldiers fighting solo on remote islands well into the 1950's. I can't call you quixotic because Quixote was noble.

Shouting Thomas said...

no, fuck you, Tommy chester queer. Give us some more evidence now,scum. Buh bye

So, J, you've left threats on my weblog that, in my amateur opinion, are criminal.

That doesn't exactly give much credence to your opinion, does it?

Meade, I'll watch my back when I take a shower.

J said...

You're into little boys TomTom, obviously Shouting Sandusky. Now, STFU, little aged queer.You got that Tweek filth, chester scum. Give us some more evidence satanist

J said...

Hey Meade,shut this little blowhard pedo-shit ST up, sir--now defending Sandusky.



Yr the faggot here, TomTom perp

Roger J. said...

Interesting to me that none of our female commenters have posted on this--why would that be, I wonder? Of course, its possible they didnt set their clocks back.

And not meant to be a slur on female commenters--just an observation. I draw no conclusions.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shouting Thomas said...

You're into little boys TomTom, obviously Shouting Sandusky. Now, STFU, little aged queer.You got that Tweek filth, chester scum. Give us some more evidence satanist

You're on notice, J.

From here on, when you post vicious threats again me on my weblog, I'll keep a record of them, and forward them to the appropriate prosecutor's office.

MadisonMan said...

Sandusky was the Lt. General of Linebacker U back in the day, and it's easy for me to think that since Paterno didn't see anything of the behavior for himself, but only heard of it second-hand, he'd given (foolishly) a lot of leeway to an old friend.

The eyewitness should have gone straight to the police. The tangled set of circumstances that ensued because he did not is once again proof that a coverup never works.

It's easy to compare the incident to the Catholic Church. When the alleged incidents occurred in 2000 and 2002, had the Priest Scandal hit a full boil yet? I've lost track of the timeline.

wv: liono I'm not making that up!

Curious George said...

"Pogo said...
Curious George, I have no doubt the assaults occurred. Paterno's culpability needs to be proven yet however.

I am prepared that all of this is true, but unwilling to string anyone up just yet, beyond Sandusky."

JoePa culpability in a legal sense...I agree. But he clearly knew...he admitted it according to the Grand Jury paper. He also knew it was of a sexual nature. He also had to know that nothing had been done.

There is an old saying...silence is consent.

Let me add that if Jerry Sandusky has any sort of decency he would hang himself in his garage.

Roger J. said...

oops--reading back thru the thread, I do see that Martha and Kit have commented. My observation should be that few of our female commentators have posted.

Apologies to Martha and Kit

NotquiteunBuckley said...

"I've spent considerable time in societies where getting the shit beat out of you, being raped and left for dead, etc., is a routine part of life."

Indeed it appears you have.

Remember this: But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

PatCA said...

Sandusky and his wife also have six adopted children. I shudder to think...

LarsPorsena said...

The campus poitics that will play out will be interesting. You can bet there are more than a few faculty members ('liberal' arts volk) who hate Paterno for his power and influence at PSU and have been looking for a chink in his armor. This scandal will provide the leverage.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ndspinelli said...

Shouting, You better pray the prosecutor responds more quickly than the Pa. DA did.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J said...

Hey Tommy Tom, dried up old faggot, STFU, tweek scum,trailerpark, hijo de puta,Shouting Sandusky

Got that yet, chester scum

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting, You better pray the prosecutor responds more quickly than the Pa. DA did.

Well, at least I'll have documentary evidence.

You should see the vile threats this piece of shit leaves on my blog.

I've been inclined to simply delete them, but no more.

J said...

You like yokel boy, Byro Bellami aka sorepaw chester? Now defending Sandusky. Funny yr best druggie palsies come from Penn state

All yr email-chat-online j-o sessions are already being subpoena'd Byro-perp. Hasta la buh bye klan-fag.

ndspinelli said...

Shouting, J is vile..you're preaching to the choir on that. So, when I say to you he is more lucid on a specific topic you should take note. You made an ad hominem attack on me last week. That type of stuff escalates. Guys like J are anonymous, cowardly and harmless..just verbally threatening.

J said...

Belch away A-house chesters

Yo sorepaw aka Byro-dreck...danke for evidence--defending Sandusky and the Shouting TomTom moron

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AJ Lynch said...

Another thread ruined by Shouting Jackasses.

Joe said...

The ludicrousness of college sports hit home when ran across the Army-Air Force game while flipping channels.

Conserve Liberty said...

RE: Duke University:

I wasn't so much referring to the suppositions and accusations of the case as to the media feeding frenzy; the lock-step University response; the assumptions that "something happened;" the sides-taking by actors and posters who cannot know the facts.

Yes, I called BS on Duke within 48 hours, but my son played college Lacrosse at the time and had met some of the Duke players at Lacrosse camps over the years.

He called BS personally. I called BS as a former college athlete who recalled how we lived, what we did and where the limits were.

And the "authority figures" were moving too fast.

This time I'm not calling BS on the prosecutor. I turned to my wife and said, "That's not going to be good for Penn State."

But there is still a scent of Salem, MA. My wife and I both have ancestors who were accusers and accused.

Meade said...

This will stick to Joe Paterno forever. The whole cover up was about protecting his reputation and legend. It almost worked but because the coverup failed, the meme will now become - Joe Paterno, football coach child rapist.

Shouting Thomas said...

This will stick to Joe Paterno forever. The whole cover up was about protecting his reputation and legend. It almost worked but because the coverup failed, the meme will now become - Joe Paterno, football coach child rapist.

I hope that is not true, Meade.

JoePa has done a lot of good in this life, and he's helped a lot of people.

Meade said...

I hope the entire truth is discovered and that every adult who failed to protect those children when he had the chance to is fully prosecuted and brought to justice.

Man. It's as if football is some kind of a cult or something.

Shouting Thomas said...

Man. It's as if football is some kind of a cult or something.

Football is some kind of cult.

When I said JoePa has done a lot of good for people, I wasn't necessarily talking just about football.

madAsHell said...

What does byro mean?? Who is chester??

What's the frequency Kenneth?

Shouting Thomas said...

And, Meade, I've dealt with the tragedy of child sexual abuse in the most dramatic and vicious forms you can imagine.

I know exactly what it's all about. I know exactly what people suffer. I know how some people triumph over it and some people are destroyed by it.

I used to be very dogmatic about these issues, until I actually had to deal with them in my life. When I had to deal with them, I found that it's not as easy, or predictably productive, to just fly off the handle and demand that the perps be punished.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Byro is the voice J hears when takes off the tinfoil hat, and it assumes many guises, generally Althouse commenters. Chester, on the other hand, tells him not to take his lithium, because that's how the worms get into his eye sockets.

Seriously, folks. Quit empowering this sicko. Boycott J.

MadisonMan said...

I hope that is not true, Meade.

I doubt it will come to what Meade says.

Sandusky is the (ALLEGED) molester here. Paterno's sin is -- a reflection of his age, I think, and the era he was raised in -- standing by a friend and hoping the whole thing wasn't true.

jeff said...

Un fucking believable. If there was absolutely nothing more than a graduate assistant coach reporting he saw Sandusky raping a 10 year old boy in the shower and despite reporting it up the chain, including Paterno and not ONE of them calling the cops it would be enough to make all of them culpable for everything that happened after that. And to say Paterno owed it to Sandusky to not report that Sandusky may have raped a 10 year old boy in the showers in the locker room that Paterno OWNS because to do would make him a bad friend to the alleged rapist. is just contemptible. And to further justify this activity by claiming a 10 year old being raped might just have brought this on himself, OR might be looking for a payday, OR should just look at this as a opportunity for growth, OR should just shut up as other people have it worse AND claiming that even if true the raping of a 10 year old is more than mitigated by the number of people who got to play football and are in the NFL is just obscene. Congratulations ST. You managed to pass Jerome in the race to the bottom. I thought he had a insurmountable lead when he defended Roman Polanski from the 13 year old girl that force Polanski to drug and rape her, but you just left him in the dust.

Shouting Thomas said...

Do you feel better now, Jeff?

So, you know precisely how to handle this, and you're sure you know the solution that will produce the outcome you want?

I used to feel precisely the way you do.

Ignorance is bliss.

MadisonMan said...

And to say Paterno owed it to Sandusky to not report that Sandusky may have raped a 10 year old boy in the showers in the locker room that Paterno OWNS because to do would make him a bad friend to the alleged rapist. is just contemptible

So if someone tells you an old friend of yours, someone you've worked closely with for 40-odd years, is banging little kids in the shower, you will immediately report it to the police?

Would the police even take that charge seriously? A friend told me he saw.... In State College in the year 2002? I wonder.

Meade said...

"So if someone tells you an old friend of yours, someone you've worked closely with for 40-odd years, is banging little kids in the shower, you will immediately report it to the police?"

In half a heartbeat.

Meade said...

"immediately" is not even a relevant term in what is being alleged against Paterno.

Shouting Thomas said...

"So if someone tells you an old friend of yours, someone you've worked closely with for 40-odd years, is banging little kids in the shower, you will immediately report it to the police?"

In half a heartbeat.


And, you're absolutely sure that this will produce the result you want?

Do you have any experience here, Meade? Experience in this area might quell your enthusiasm for a quick and easy solution.

Is it possible for you to use your imagination for a moment and think about this...

What if your decision in a heartbeat produces a thoroughly horrifying outcome? Can you imagine that that might happen?

J said...

: crime, football, law, pedophilia, Penn State, rape

Now, that be part of the A-house Top 10.

Keep the evidence flowing Byro-Sorepaw. Proclaim yr love for Sandusky along with Shouting Tweek-scum, and say "get over it". Nada mas que basura

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Meade said..

In half a heartbeat.


Hear, hear. Or less.

MadisonMan said...

See, I would tell the person who told me about it to go to the police. A first-hand account is a lot better than hearsay.

MadisonMan said...

Even better, I would accompany them to the police.

That's what Paterno should have done.

J said...

"Deb Frisch"--why, that's another of yr stupid (and anonymous) stalker-profiles, Byro-Sorepaw, perp, acidhead, scientology swine As will soon be revealed

Meade said...

"Do you have any experience here, Meade? "

Experience protecting children? Tons.

Experience having the responsibility of being an employer? Plenty.

Shouting Thomas said...

Experience protecting children? Tons.

Experience having the responsibility of being an employer? Plenty.


No, experience dealing with the repercussions of child sexual abuse, and what happens when the law enters the picture.

It can turn out much different than you think for everybody involved.

Meade said...

ST, the law is always "in the picture" whether one recognizes it or not.

AJ Lynch said...

Do his defenders here believe JoePA had never before heard rumors about Sandusky until the 2002 incident? Keep in mind Happy Valley is a tiny town and JoePa is King.

Mad Man? ST?

MadisonMan said...

AJ Lynch, I know more about Centre County than you ever will.

Do not mistake my trying to understand actions with defending him.

ndspinelli said...

Shouting said,"Joe Paterno did a lot of good.." For the sake of argument I'll concede that point. BUT THIS WAS REALLY REALLY BAD! He stayed on longer than he should have so he could pass Eddie Robinson in total victories and this was an impediment to him staying on so he covered it up. Just coincidentally I'm sure, this finally comes out after the Machiavellian dago coach passes the venerable Grambling coach in victories last week. Male ego can be fucking deadly.

Maguro said...

So if someone tells you an old friend of yours, someone you've worked closely with for 40-odd years, is banging little kids in the shower, you will immediately report it to the police?

Well, here is the thing: The "someone" that reported Sandusky raping the child in the locker room is a guy named Mike McQuery who had played QB for JoePa and known him for over 10 years. This wasn't just some random dude casting aspersions on Sandusky.

At the point that McQuery reported this, Paterno knew that one of two things had to be true: Either Sandusky was a child molestor or McQueary was an unbelievably vicious liar.

Mike McQueary is still an assistant coach at Penn State. What does that tell you?

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/report_former_coach_jerry_sand.html

ndspinelli said...

Shouting, You obviously have some personal demons here and for that I'm sorry and pray for you. You are absolutely correct that cops, prosecutors, Family Services, social workers, can and do sometimes make these cases even worse. BUT YOU HAVE TO REPORT IT FOR CHRISSAKE.

AJ Lynch said...

Your knowledge of Centre County was not the issue in my question.

ndspinelli said...

Shouting, Teachers, coaches, etc. are mandated reporters. That means they are criminally liable for not reporting child abuse. They have no choice..IT'S THEIR DUTY MANDATED BY LAW.

rcommal said...

See, I would tell the person who told me about it to go to the police. A first-hand account is a lot better than hearsay.

11/6/11 1:00 PM
Blogger MadisonMan said...

Even better, I would accompany them to the police.

That's what Paterno should have done.


This.

AJ Lynch said...

Maguro:

No shit! That is a huge point against JoePa. McCleary is the big redheaded coach on the PSU sidelines always talking with the QB's.

Meade said...

You're saying McQueary has remained at Penn State for almost ten years while knowing exactly how the rape of a child was handled? His not reporting it directly to the police makes him culpable.

rick said...

I have wanted JoePa gone for several years now. This upsets me because the hit to PSU's reputation will take decades from which to recover. I am alum, my son is an alum - both season ticket holders. Hearing that Mike Mcqueary, currently an assistant coach, was the grad assistant named, only adds to the embarrassment.

If this ego driven coach would have left a few ago, the hit would have large, but not devastating. This is and will be devastating.

Spanier and JoePa need to go ... and everyone in between. We shall see if the trustees have the guts to execute.

Maguro said...

Oh yeah, McQueary is absolutely culpable, no doubt about it. That doesn't let JoePa or Curley off the hook, though.

Remember, this whole mess is just starting. We're sure to hear a lot more as Curley and Schultz try to save their own skins.

MayBee said...

Wow. That is stomach-turning.

If it's true, the university is shamed. I love college football, and I have admired Jo Pa. But there is no excuse for standing idly by when you are made aware that someone on your staff was seen anally raping anyone, let along a ten year old.

Football programs have lost their reputations for much less than this.
This is sick-making.

MayBee said...

The grad student didn't report it to the police, I'm sure, because he was afraid of losing his job and his future.

At the very least
, JoPa should have made it clear he would support him talking to the police.

Ditto the janitor. Predators are skilled at putting themselves in just the right position of power and authority so they can do as they wish.
Sandusky knew JoPa had his back.

Martha said...

OMG from Maguro's link--Sandusky wrote an autobiography titled TOUCHED:

"His (Sandusky's) autobiography, "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story," includes pictures of some of the kids who were part of The Second Mile and also allegedly molested.

"We've continually tried to reach out to thousands of young people and tried to do more for them," he wrote. "As much as we can. To make it even better, the reaching out has always been a lot of fun. Especially at the summer camps, where I've enjoyed wrestling and swimming with the kids. I even had to have knee surgery in the summer of 1991 because of my fooling around."

Yuck.

rick said...

To add to PSU's embarrassment (as anyone's needs to), the Penn State creamery makes world famous ice cream. One of the flavors is named the Sandusky Blitz. Not for long.

MayBee said...

Can anybody explain why, if they thought the allegations were baseless, they would take away his key to the shower room?

They're basically saying, "We don't care what you do. Just don't do it here"

MayBee said...

Sorry, I read that wrong. They asked him not to bring the kids to the showers any more.

"Just don't horse around naked with 11 year olds where we can see you, Jerry."

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting, You obviously have some personal demons here and for that I'm sorry and pray for you. You are absolutely correct that cops, prosecutors, Family Services, social workers, can and do sometimes make these cases even worse. BUT YOU HAVE TO REPORT IT FOR CHRISSAKE.

Well, sounds great, but doesn't necessarily work.

This is probably the final area in which I learned that the government cannot wave a magic wand and make everything right.

As in all other things, it is possible for government, in the form of the law, to make these things much worse by taking them in hand.

I've seen it plenty. I'm not saying that this arena is not the proper province of the law, but the results are more likely to be chaotic and mixed than you think. Always. For everybody involved.

MayBee said...

It says a lot about the atmosphere at Penn State that the grad assistant who saw the rape didn't try to stop it.

He quietly left and called his dad, and then the coach.

knox said...

Tell me on balance whether JoePa has done more good than bad. I think the answer is obvious.

I dunno, the fact that these boys were supposed to be helped by Sandusky and his connection to PSU--and were victimized instead--makes it even more nauseating. None of these guys get any credit for any good they've done if they ignored that little boys were being raped by one of their own.

Your varied and adamant defenses of what (allegedly) went on there are a little weird.

ndspinelli said...

Shouting, Either this is a nation of laws, and not men, or we're all fucked. Get some help dude.

Shouting Thomas said...

Shouting, Either this is a nation of laws, and not men, or we're all fucked. Get some help dude.

I just did get some help, dude.

I took a ten mile bicycle ride and, then, a nap.

MadisonMan said...

Teachers, coaches, etc. are mandated reporters. That means they are criminally liable for not reporting child abuse. They have no choice..IT'S THEIR DUTY MANDATED BY LAW.

Was that true in 2002 as well?

It will be very interesting to see what the Trustees do with this. I'll have lots to talk to Dad about the next time I call, that's for sure.

(Nice LTTE, btw :) )

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ken Pidcock said...

Grand jury: Paterno called Tim Curley (“Curley”), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno’s immediate superior, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.

No notification of law enforcement. Paterno cannot weather this, nor should he. My guess is that he will acknowledge his negligence and resign.

ndspinelli said...

MadisonMan, Mandated reporting laws for teachers, coaches, health care professionals, etc. date back to @ least the 1960's in most states.

Shouting, Exercise is how I exorcise my demons also. Good work dude.

MadisonMan said...

Thanks for the info. Never really heard about them until I started coaching. I understand the PSU VP claims the law does not apply to him. We'll see.

Who can look at this book title now and not cringe?

Wally Kalbacken said...

Using a Venn diagram approach, just exactly what is the overlap of homosexuality and pedophilia? Clearly they are not independent, and the correlation seems to be extremely high (say 98%+), but does anyone have any
percentages?



I'm no Penn State fan and have found it bizarre that Joe Paterno continues to coach. His ego is being satisfied to the detriment of the football program, even absent this incident. However, you do have to look behind the story, and this incident happened some time ago, which makes you wonder if someone wasn't sitting on it (figuratively speaking) and that its appearance right now may signify someone's attempt at forcing Joe's retirement, more so than a specific search for justice in that situation.

rsb said...

Disgusting story and the odious
"shoutingthomas" vomits up some
more wisdom.

Ken Pidcock said...

Clearly they are not independent, and the correlation seems to be extremely high (say 98%+), but does anyone have any
percentages?


There are numerous traumatized women who might be able to inform your analysis.

J said...

Joe Pedturno, goin' down.

Sad for the sentimental thugs and boneheads addicted to pigball, eh

rick said...

@J How long were you ruminating on your stellar comment? Class all the way.

charli said...

Awe!! Another right winger homophobe!
Busted! Outed as a true pedophile!
This is EXACTLY what is the REAL truth!
Bigot! Bigot! Bigot! Preying on lil boys all the while,
trying to blame gays! You make me sick you insane SOB!!!!