November 15, 2011

"Getting kicked out of Zuccotti Park... was the best possible endgame" for Occupy Wall Street.

Says Matt Yglesias. This fits with what I was saying the other day about the problem with the "Occupy" protest format: There's no exit strategy.



But police breaking it up imposes an end. That solves the no-exit-strategy problem.

253 comments:

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Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Why did Julius Caesar have the popular support that the conservative Optimates faction lacked, Michael?

Did you want to look this up? Want some time to get back to me on it?

SPImmortal said...

SP rocks the internet with his pseudonymity.

Who the fuck even knows or cares what "SPImmortal" even means? I don't play World of Warcraft online in my spare time, like he does, so I don't know. But that's what he must be doing when he's not having massive amounts of orgiastic sex.

What a dumbass. Lol.

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Damn, hitting me where it hurts. Attacking my user name... hahahahahahaaa

Goddamn your a weaksauce fucking nerd.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

"Why did Julius Caesar have the popular support that the conservative Optimates faction lacked, Michael? "

And this knowledge along with 2 bucks gets you a medium coffee and a donut at Dunkins.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Around these parts "Ritmo" has...

Lol. Famous last words. "Around these parts." How about outside of your Jerry Springer bubble?

You know, an avatar might convince people that your crudity is only limited to your reading habits. You might actually convince people that you have a sense of taste.

Well, anything's possible.

SPImmortal said...

Lol. Famous last words. "Around these parts." How about outside of your Jerry Springer bubble?

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I don't know. I imagine your still an impotent loser outside my "Jery Springer Bubble", whatever the fuck that is.

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You know, an avatar might convince people that your crudity is only limited to your reading habits. You might actually convince people that you have a sense of taste.

Well, anything's possible.

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Convincing people you have a sense of taste? The only thing you've convinced people of is you've got no fucking sense at all.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Goddamn your a weaksauce fucking nerd.

And YOU'RE AN ILLITERATE DUMBFUCK NEANDERTHAL TROLL! LOL!

(Who still can't spell worth a damn).

But keep trying to convince anyone here that you actually have a job.

It's good to know that nerds like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg could own your sorry, illiterate, bar brawling ass. What the fuck, did you escape from the movie Road House or something?

Get back into the bronze age, man.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

You don't know any people, just animation characters. So quit pretending to speak for them.

Michael said...

Ritmo. I have studied Roman history for most of my life. Your earlier statement on a cause, the cause, of the fall of the republic is enough for me to conclude that you have not. It is nice but inadequate to evoke Sempronius Gracchus and Tiberius and by implication the lex frumentaria, the foundation of colonies and other land policies.

SPImmortal said...

You don't know any people, just animation characters. So quit pretending to speak for them.

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lol I defy anyone to make sense of this fucking post.

u mad homie?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Your username sucks like a tarpit.

Your username sucks dick like popsicles on a Sunday.

And you, yourself? Yeah. You just plain suck balls.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SPImmortal said...

Goddamn your a weaksauce fucking nerd.

And YOU'RE AN ILLITERATE DUMBFUCK NEANDERTHAL TROLL! LOL!

(Who still can't spell worth a damn).

But keep trying to convince anyone here that you actually have a job.

It's good to know that nerds like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg could own your sorry, illiterate, bar brawling ass. What the fuck, did you escape from the movie Road House or something?

Get back into the bronze age, man.

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RITMO SMASH!!!!

Thanks for confirming you're a sexless nerd, not that it wasn't obvious.

Now do try and make a point and stop sounding so fucking stupid.

SPImmortal said...

You don't know any people, just animation characters. So quit pretending to speak for them.

--------------

Somebody tell me what this random assemblage of words has to do with anything.

What is going on inside Ritmo's fucked up brain?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

That's nice but inadequate to study Roman history without drawing any parallels to today, Michael.

So then, you tell me something. If Roman politics have no relation to politics today, at what percent of homelessness, inequality and discontent would you think things might be ripe for a change in a democracy? I mean, at what percent of homelessness and unemployment would you laugh at how awesome the top 1% had "won"? How much of the Congress should they "own"?

Tell me, Michael.

Also, tell me why the 1920s lack any relation to the years 1996 - 2008, politically speaking.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael,

Do you think that corruption is a liberal invention, a distraction, even?

How governable was the late Roman Republic, in your estimation (or at least in the estimation of all those authors whose works you read)?

How well is gridlock working for you, these days?

How deserving is the 99% of mockery, in your esteemed opinion?

Why did the Caesar's followers win?

Surely it would be ahistorical to see anything political in any of that, right?

Christopher in MA said...

"Why did the Caesar's followers win?" [sic]

One presumes you're making some sort of comment about Octavian, Ritmo, who can certainly said to have been one of Caesar's followers and to have won in that he eliminated his rivals, lived and became princeps, but you can't really think Brutus, Antony or Lepidus "won" in any real sense.

But thanks for living up to type. You hijacked the thread, Alpha had nothing but spittle-flecked incoherency and garbage his usual stammering snark. If only I'd said that Allie would give garage a tongue bath and throw down her "I'm the mother of a Valiant Warrior!" card, I'd have called the whole thing.

Now go ahead, slice me to ribbons with that Algonquin Round Table rapier-like wit of yours. The sozzled spirits of Dorothy Parker and Alexander Woolcott are counting on you.

Nighty-night until tomorrow. Don't let the bedbugs bite.

Allie said...

Michael, you met your match, NO not match, intellectual and moral superior in Ritmo, he did a damn good job of making you look like the small man child you are.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Oh Michael!

Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter?

Michael said...

Ritmo. The revolution, the comical revolution, is over. Go home. It was a disappointment but it was a second rate deal from the beginning. Your guys put an ugly face on liberalism. Too bad. Anyway its over.

Michael said...

Allie. How funny. You too must know Roman history. Quite the fad with the poorly educated

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Octavian claimed his inheritance from Caesar through adoption. There was also a relation through his mother.

Brutus, whatever his political dealings, was designated the assassin of Caesar and was hunted down by the triumvirate.

At some point, whatever you know of this period, you have to account for the fact that the assassins represented the conservative faction (Optimates) and the role Caesar's popularity (not only personally but politically) played in bringing about the end of the Republic.

Why do conservatives today always say that Obama wants to end America as we know it?

The point is that you can only coddle privilege and "nobility" as some sort of sole arbiter for so long in a democracy. Either the democracy has to contend with more immediate needs or it ends.

But don't tell that to Michael. He's having too much fun laughing at the unprivileged.

Allie said...

Michael you fucking pathetic bastard, how many LIVES did you save in your career , name one decent thing you have done for humanity in your miserable life? I am damn proud of my career,fuck you.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael:

Does Wood drastically underestimate the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth?

I'm still waiting to hear what you learned, and not merely what you can regurgitate and pontificate upon. We know you're superior to anyone you don't like or agree with, Michael. We just want to know how that figures into what someone tried, and apparently failed, to educate you about.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Don't listen to Caesar's supporters! They're dirty! And they're loud! And they bang drums!

They're nowhere near as noble as we are. We, who have been running this Republic, We who founded it. We, who have been feeding this Republic. We are the ones with the privilege to govern and provide this Republic with its immense wealth.

Q. Does taking out bin Laden compare to the conquest of Gaul?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Ritmo. The revolution, the comical revolution, is over. Go home. It was a disappointment but it was a second rate deal from the beginning. Your guys put an ugly face on liberalism. Too bad. Anyway its over.

Who paid you to say this?

Do you ever get out of the South?

Alan said...

Glad it didn't involve tanks and CS gas.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael,

Blogger lists your occupation as "investment banking".

So?

Are you an investor? Or are you a banker?

Make up your mind, you financial alchemist.

el polacko said...

y'know, if you just scroll right past carol's ramblings and all the bickering over the silly assertions from alpha, garage, and ritmo you can zip right through these comment threads in seconds flat!

edwardroyce said...

This my friends is small government conservatism in action! The Founders totally had this mind. Eat popcorn and watch the government beat the shit out of citizens! LIEbruls just don't get it.

Small government conservatism has nothing to do with it.

I'm a fiscal conservative. If bigger government actually worked then I'd be in favor of that. But since government, of practically any size, tends to totally screw up anything it is involved with. Well then you can see my position is almost foregone.

No the beatdown has nothing to do with conservatism. I just don't like lefties. Socialism and Communism is the religion of the Left because practical experience has shown it simply doesn't work. So all that remains is faith.

You lefties have faith that Socialism or Communism will eventually work.

I have faith that there is a billyclub in your future.

And popcorn.

edwardroyce said...

Q. Does taking out bin Laden compare to the conquest of Gaul?

Is this some sort of inside-baseball kind of joke?

The answer is an unqualified "no".

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Never, never, NEVER enter into a pissing contest with a skunk.

Roger J. said...

Wow--a thread like all threads, filled with commentary that illuminates our times. Fortunately I wasnt there (apologies to the old TV show "you were there"

I did rather enjoy the disquisitions of the reasons for the fall of the Roman republic--I noted there were several single factor causes put forward; I would only suggest that for a complex even like the fall of the republic, there are many factors at play. One could actually argue that the fall of the republic sgtarted with Roman expansion out of the Italian Peninsula which predates the Gracchi and out of work soldiers by several hundred years.

Anyway: beware the single factor analysis.

Issob Morocco said...

The key word from Matt is Endgame.

As in play time is over kids, go back to Mommy and Daddy.

edwardroyce said...

Oh Hell.

Now I remember what I forgot to do. Write a de-Ritmo-izer webpage that removes all comments by ritmo.

Roger J. said...

Edwardcroyce: can you color code it so as to pick up green? then your task is easy.

Posting volume is another clue, but then you will run up against Carol Herman. (Hey--thats a twofer)

good luck and share your results.

Robert Cook said...

The police state is showing itself.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/11/16/police-state-tactics/

Scott M said...

The ugly hand of the federal government is becoming increasingly suspected behind what appears to be a nationwide attempt to repress and evict the Occupation Movement.

Why couldn't the OWS people apply for permits? Provide facilities for the expected participants? Hire some off-duty police, you know...union brothers...to keep the peace within?

Why couldn't they do all that? Had they done even half that, I doubt very much the mayors would be throwing them out. Seems to me that a nationwide movement DID all of that at their protests recently, and went on to back a historic mid-term election in their favor.

damikesc said...

I am damn proud of my career,fuck you.

Most people don't aim for "message board troll" as a career goal --- but you can't be disappointed if you have such low standards.

...which explains the puppet Allie nicely, no?

ken in sc said...

Julius Caesar, crossed the Rubicon with his army and declared himself Dictator for Life which was against the Roman constitution, which only allowed Dictators to serve one year terms during an emergency. A group of senators killed him because they thought he was setting himself up as a king—also against the constitution. There followed a civil war between Caesar's supporters and his enemies. He had popular support because he had confiscated the property of his enemies--whom he vilified as being too rich--and gave it to his friends His nephew Octavian won the wars. He claimed to have restored the Roman Republic. He retained all the old Roman titles and offices, except he himself held all the important ones Commander in Chief (Imperator), Chief Priest (Pontefex Maximus), Senator, Consul, and so on. IIRC he never called himself Dictator. Instead he wanted to be called First Citizen (Princep), Father of the Fatherland (Patri Patria), and Augustus. His rule was effectively the end of the Republic and the beginning of the Empire. BTW, his example is one of the reasons our constitution does not allow a federal official to hold more than one office at a time. You cannot be Chief Justice, President, and Senator at the same time.

Robert Cook said...

Scott M, it's not merely the fact of their being evicted, as egregious as that is, but the method and the apparent coordination of effort across cities.

And...why do the people--any of the people--need to apply for permits to protest? Isn't the 1st Amendment all the permission necessary?

This is not just about shoving aside a rabble of kooky hippies, but an illustration that the state will flex its martial muscle to dispense with any public outcry against it that they deem to have become a nuisance. It's all well and good for Americans to applaud the so-called "Arab Spring" as a sign of "democracy" asserting itself in undemocratic lands--as if these faraway actions, which do not disturb Americans comfortable in their sleep of delusion, somehow reflect affirmatively on the American model--but when Americans start to complain, other Americans are the first to cheer their being stomped down.

Agree or disagree with the OWS protesters--or the American Nazis--if we do not support their right to peaceably assemble and air their grievances, then we surrender our right to have our own grievances heard, or to expect that any others will support our right to air them.

Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Agree or disagree with the OWS protesters--or the American Nazis--if we do not support their right to peaceably assemble and air their grievances, then we surrender our right to have our own grievances heard, or to expect that any others will support our right to air them..."

That's not the same as setting up a campsite on private (or public) property for months on end to the point you become a public and health nuisance.

For someone who advocates all sorts of govt. regulation you do have a penchant for social anarchy.

Scott M said...

apparent coordination of effort across cities

Please provide the basis on which you're making that assertion. I hope its strong that one or two mayors doing it and the rest realizing on their own that it's politically possible to do at the time they did it.

And...why do the people--any of the people--need to apply for permits to protest? Isn't the 1st Amendment all the permission necessary?

On private property? Even outside that, I would suggest that the 1st Amendment does not trump the health, sanitation, and crime risks some of these camps have become.

This is not just about shoving aside a rabble of kooky hippies, but an illustration that the state will flex its martial muscle to dispense with any public outcry against it that they deem to have become a nuisance.

You don't think those in charge of the state apparatus until 2010, ie the Democrats, didn't consider the Tea Party rallies a nuisance? I suggest that they did. A lot of the same mayors that are, as you say, "flexing their muscle" (a patently ridiculous characterization) let the Tea Party have their gatherings while they decided to crack down on these cesspools. Obviously you will want to restructure your argument in light of that comparison.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... but when Americans start to complain, other Americans are the first to cheer their being stomped down..."

Please let's not compare Arabs seeking an end to oppression to Americans demanding free tuition or that they can't find jobs to suit their degree in journalism or some such. Doing so only reinforces your image of intellectual silliness.

Scott M said...

"I hope its strong that" should have been I hope its stronger than

Robert Cook said...

"You don't think those in charge of the state apparatus until 2010, ie the Democrats, didn't consider the Tea Party rallies a nuisance?"

No.

Scott M said...

No.

Well-put and erudite as ever. Somewhere in those two letters and a piece of punctuation, surely, is your proof that there is coordination going on between all the cities closing down the squattervilles? It's possible that I'm just not smart enough to see how you worded it.

Alan said...

Hoosier Daddy specifically stated that OWS had become a "public and health nuisance." The state apparati (actually, it's local apparati at work here) certainly regarded the Tea Party as a political nuisance, and tried to spin the protesters as a potential criminal nuisance. But the Tea Party never became an actual criminal threat - and didn't spread lice infestations or TB outbreaks.

Law enforcement could not ignore the growing crime wave.

Robert Cook said...

The Tea Party people were not considered a nuisance because they weren't...and aren't. They essentially support the status quo, even if they don't know it.

As for my remark, Scott M., about "coordination of efforts" to remove the OWS, I said "apparent" coordination of effort, and do not assert it as a matter of proven fact. However, the article for which I provided a URL provides a basis to see the efforts as apparently--probably--coordinated.

Scott M said...

The Tea Party people were not considered a nuisance because they weren't...and aren't.

The differences between the Tea Party rallies and these clowns was described quite well by Alan. That it is happening at roughly the same time around the country (not nearly simultaneously enough to call it coordinated) is more due to how extended stays outside in an urban area would wear on a group of squatters no matter their location. Sanitation, public health...these are real issues that must be dealt with. If the very cause of the problem refuses to be dealt with, the assertion level must necessarily be adjusted upward.

"Probably" and "apparently" coordinated mean that there's zero proof. If all the cops rolled at the same time on the same day, you would have an argument. I don't believe that has happened, however.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... The Tea Party people were not considered a nuisance because they weren't...and aren't. They essentially support the status quo, even if they don't know it...."

If memory serves, the tea party wasn't too keen on the banks getting bailouts. Not sure what they're thoughts were on the GM union bailout but I suspect they weren't keen on it either.

Your belief that they support the status quo further demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Tea Party.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

One could actually argue that the fall of the republic sgtarted with Roman expansion out of the Italian Peninsula which predates the Gracchi and out of work soldiers by several hundred years.

This is actually the standard critique of empires in general, empire being more descriptive of a state's foreign policy than its internal politics - despite how that doesn't match up with the naming conventions for the historical periods of Rome. But the economic angle is actually more salient.

The Romans had a poor understanding of economics and (like, I suppose, most states prior to the Scientific Revolution) relied pretty much on further expansion and conquest alone for any sort of economic growth.

As with the financial alchemists currently running our country, that growth became an end unto itself, even when it proved detrimental to the needs of the republic.

Anyway: beware the single factor analysis.

Politics is a necessarily multi-factorial thing.

BTW, thanks for stabbing me in the back vis a vis edroyce, Roger. I know I should abstain from responding to idiotic assholes like P.S. Immoral, but Allie desires a strong defense and he has a creepy habit of trolling my every single comment.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

“Mass eviction of the poor by the rich underlay the political tensions and civil wars of the last century of the Roman Republic.”

Hopkins, "Conquerors and Slaves, pgs 1-9, 1978

Robert Cook said...

http://my.firedoglake.com/gregglevine/2011/11/15/oakland-mayor-jean-quan-admits-cities-coordinated-crackdown-on-occupy-movement/

Scott M., Mayor Quan of Oakland seems to have let the cat out of the bag that the crackdowns in various cities may, in fact, have been coordinated.

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