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It just happened!
That's right and the way to ensure it doesn't happen again is for the Attorney General and those who approved it at DoJ and ATF to resign effective immediately.
It won't happen again because Holder has his scope locked onto those heinous cannabis dispensaries in Ca. The Justice Dept has told all Ca. dispensaries to close down in 45 days or risk prosecution and forfeiture. Quite the progressive administration!They sell guns to drug cartels and then enforce stupid laws that help the cartels. I would look for a Nixonian slush fund of cash from these cartels in some CREEP office safe! Now, I'm sounding like Oliver Stone..I know.
What is "Fast & Furious"?
Was hoping his statement ended with, "And I therefore resign." Sadly no.Still worse, he went on: "Holder asked Congress to “fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking.”" Oblivious. And. Tone. Deaf.
Yah, he skipped a couple steps there. Like resigning in disgraceLike being sent to jailLike apologizing for trying to tar the Gun Rights crowd with gun deaths enabled by the Justice Department.
Oblivious. And. Tone. Deaf.The main problem with the above is that Holder is the top man. The. Top. Man.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)It must never happen again.By which I mean, “We must never let anyone KNOW of our program or programs like this ever again? Am I clear here, team?”
bagoh20:Fast and Furious was apparently an internal ATF/DOJ codeword for an operation.The operation was ostensibly designed to stop gun-trafficking into Mexico.However, the operation involved (A) telling American gun dealers to go through with sales to suspected traffickers that the dealers didn't want to complete(B) not intercepting the traffickers when they were inside of American territory and could be apprehended without an arrest-this-guy-and-extradite-him requestThere are also indications that the traffickers in question were known to be on the payroll of DEA/FBI as informants in drug-smuggling investigations.Holder has been denying knowledge of the entire operation, even as evidence mounted that the operation involved ATF, FBI, and DEA, as well as regular reports to higher-ups in the DOJ and the White House.Guns purchased under this program have been showing up in American and Mexican crime scenes for some time. Simply put, the operation involved Federal Agents telling Federal Firearms License-holding stores to ignore the law, and occasionally to ignore the NICS background check results, to further an investigation.But the investigation didn't produce any arrest, and seemed to have been conducted to allow as many guns as possible to travel into Mexico from the U.S.
karrde, what a great post. Well done.Trey
"And now that we have addressed this misstep, we call on our Republican friends to put aside their partisan politics and help us put Americans back to work."Holder: "This isn't the scandal you're looking for."Enemy Media: "This isn't the scandal we're looking for."Holder: "Squirrel."Enemy Media: "SQUIRREL!"
Remember the good old days when then AG Alberto Gonzales was pilloried for firing 7 US attorneys? IIRC no one died as a result of those actions, although those on the left went apeshit. Holder should be fired, but wont. Sad.
Well, alrighty then. LOOK! Over there, Herman Cain!
I'm with bagoh.What's Fast and Furious?Just weeks ago, they all denied this even existed.The MSM did not discuss it, not once.Now they'll never do again what they refuse to admit they did."The goal was to track the guns to trafficking ring leaders who long had escaped prosecution. ATF lost track of some 1,400 of the more than 2,000 weapons whose purchases attracted the suspicion of the Fast and Furious investigators."Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.The goal was to enact very strict gun control laws. But they ended up killing hundreds of innocent people, and some of our own men.It's goddamn treason.
Whatever Herman Cain did, or didn't do, one thing is for certain, he didn't get anybody killed.
Fast & Furious was "flawed in its concept, and flawed in its execution.It must never happen again."I wouldn't go that far. It was pretty decent for an action flick, and Vin Diesel is always cool.
No fucking kidding. Thanks for the brilliant analysis, Eric.
karrde said...bagoh20:karrde apparently hasn't seen bagoh's sarc before.Still a nice recap. Only thing I'd add is that some of those "crime scenes" involved dead Americans.wv: disecrat. A dissembling Democrat, e.g., Eric Holder.
But other than the plan and its implementation, how did it go?
Especially since he got caught.
The most flawed thing in Fast & Furious was Eric Holder.But it's interesting, as AllenS and Roger J note, all the threats to the Republic committed by Dubya's Justice Department which were denounced by the Lefties, and nobody got killed.This: (crickets).
The fact the holder acknowledged suggests to me the torches and pitchforks are getting closer--And of course an other interesting question would be what Mr Obama knew about it when (OK--that was in my best Senator McCarthy voice)
It was pretty decent for an action flick, and Vin Diesel is always cool.Let's face it. If you're a Vin Diesel fan, you didn't get that joke. Just go back to your crayons.
@Calypso Facto - Still worse, he went on: "Holder asked Congress to “fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking.”"I love it. We can set up a government agency to fight the other government agencies that illegally traffic in guns.You could make this stuff up, but you'd be committed if you told anyone.
Let's see:Mexico has been a thorn for ages. For Dubya, it was the way Mexicans crossed the Rio Grande, swimming "at will."Then came the route for the drugs.And, then came Obama's surge, running for the prsidency in 2008.Where's the downside?Mexicans are shooting other Mexicans. And, the drug trade "fires at will."Lots of Americans use drugs, too! So it's not as if you're ever going to contain this trade.Some of this trade goes on underground! Where Mexicans walk from "their" side of the border, underground. Coming out about a mile away ... into a house ... that's in Texas.From this Boehner expects to make hay?I've never seen so much incompetence displayed by a House Speaker ... since I saw Newt Gingrich take his dive off the diving board.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Let's face it. If you're a Vin Diesel fan, you didn't get that joke. Just go back to your crayons.CRAYONS, I use magic markers, thank you very much…..You Althouse Smurftards can talk about this all you want, but what about CAIN, huh? Raping WiccanSatanistMormann scum that you are… tener relaciones sexuales con un bate de fruta
The typical lament when a government official screws up is "mistakes were made."No shit. Now, who made the mistakes and what.charges will they be facing? What about the radical concepf of people being held personally reaponsible for their actions?
@AllenS - Whatever Herman Cain did, or didn't do, one thing is for certain, he didn't get anybody killed.Whaddaya mean? His super secret Food and Furious program deployed pizzas loaded with extra fat on behalf of Big Pharma to boost their statin drug product sales.At least that's what the voices tell me.
Eric's Fast and Aghast and FuriousThe Committee Didn't Believe He Was SeriousAs to When He KnewAbout the HullabalooDeja Vue: Eric Appears Quite Delirious.
Still worse, he went on: "Holder asked Congress to “fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking.”" Shameless!!!
He means that the best laid plans of Holder the Magic Gun Controller got exposed this time.It must never be done that way again...the other ways he has in planning now will be done ASAP.
"It must never happen again." I think UW should send a notice to Penn State that Bucky will forfeit if Paterno shows up. That's called moral courage.
Raping WiccanSatanistMormann scum that you areYes, Joe. Validate him more.
"They sell guns to drug cartels and then enforce stupid laws that help the cartels. I would look for a Nixonian slush fund of cash from these cartels in some CREEP office safe!"Closer to the truth than you perhaps suspect. Elements of the US government are drug traffic controllers and use the connections and money to run unknown operations off the books and to guide the money flow to domestic and foreign ideological friends.It's dirty. It's Caribbean-area based with global powers. Elements of the US government control/own global drug traffic through selected cartels they favor. More creep than you can imagine.The elements don't sell guns to their cartels, they control those cartels. This particular cartel was cooperating with the elements on this operation to force firearm confiscation in USA so as to give safety to ordinary operations by this cartel and their US government owners/controllers. Dirty.Elements of the US government are a drug super-cartel, with deniability. Why do voters rush headlong into the arms of government? Drugs.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Yes, Joe. Validate him more.What? I even used a Spanish phrase, admittedly I think it’s all spelled correctly, even if I’m unsure of the translational accuracy. Anyway you just don’t like him/her because s/he’s so brutally scathing to you and his/her points strike so close to home! (Edit Note: poster rolling on floor laughing hysterically)….. Licker de ofrecer de fútbol
Still worse, he went on: "Holder asked Congress to “fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking.”" Shameless!!!Worse - Pelosi recently used the Fast & Furious deaths as justification for cracking down on firearm dealers in the US.Without missing a beat.She's definately a candidate for tar & feathers
"Elements of the US government are a drug super-cartel, with deniability."No need to beat around the bush: it's the CIA. Working with drug dealers has long been a means for them to raise off the books funds.
Fast and Furious flawed in concept and execution, never should have happenedNot to mention illegal and immoral. But ....hey....who is keeping track of such piddling stuff.
I'm shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on here.
If Obama had a brain he would pull a Lyndon Johnson. The worst thing that could happen to him would be to be reelected and have a republican congress elected. The investigations would never end and in all likelihood a lot of white house people would be looking at prison terms. Fast and Furious is already beyond Watergate and its barley begun.Throw in the corruption of Solyndra (and who knows how many others) and a disaster is heading the democrats way. If Obama steps aside he is safe since no one is going to go after a former president, it's just not good policy.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)No need to beat around the bush: it's the CIA. Working with drug dealers has long been a means for them to raise off the books funds.Uh yeah, thank you Michael Mann and the San Jose Mercury, but as there is NO evidence of this, beyond the fevered imagination of Hollywood and two reporters, I’m afraid I’ll just point and laugh at you.
The tricks that keep working, like Global Warming CO2 causation Fraud, are the studies done with faked dataSo Holder and Obama will try statistics taken out of their ass next time.Fast and Furious was a mass attempt to run a faked data operation. This one blew up thanks to the Gun Store owners.
Strange question off topic: Any reason the font size on my comment section is suddenly very small?
Throwing responsible parties in the Federal pen, all the way up to Holder, would go a long way towards creating the proper incentives. If the President was involved, impeach him.This isn't the First Grade, and Fast and Furious wasn't a case of the dog eating homework.
This isn't the First Grade, and Fast and Furious wasn't a case of the dog eating homework.I've been struck just how closely national politicians resemble grade schoolers since I was old enough to really pay attention.
Holder, Pelosi, Feinstein, Obama, et al? Shameless? Yes, but more than that--they hold conservatives in utter contempt, thinking most in Congress are spineless gimps afraid of being painted by the MSM as "being partisan" at a time when "the people" just want Congress "to work together" to "get things done." And they're right! And they're going to get away with it ! For these people, both collectively and individually, to continue to insist Gunrunner/Fast& Furious proves the need for even greater ATF funding and increased gun controls on law-abiding American citizens in the face of even the few facts as have been broached (in spite of the Obama Admins best efforts to supress) tales a Lake Superior-sized vessel full of unmitigated gall..
All this also happened under the Bush administration - three years before the start of "Fast and Furious." As for its predecessor, "Wide Receiver,": prosecutors finally, quietly, rounded up seven suspects last fall. No cartel leaders, just buyers who - critics say - should never have been allowed to put even one weapon on the street, let alone operate for years.
None of the explanations I have seen so far for "Fast and Furious" (or its predecessor programs) make any sense to me. I am still looking for an explanation for how these programs could have been presented to the higher levels in the DoJ and been approved.
BarryD - "Throwing responsible parties in the Federal pen, all the way up to Holder, would go a long way towards creating the proper incentives. If the President was involved, impeach him."Does that include Bush and Gonzalez?
Fen - Where was this outrage during the first go around?"Wide Receiver?"Oh, wait...I know why: Because we didn't know about it until now.
Love said... Does that include Bush and Gonzalez?Go ahead, and try to impeach Bush and Gonzalez.
That ain't gonna cut it, Eric.
Right, Love. F&F isn't bad, and anyway it's Bush's fault. You're a fucking idiot.
Holder asked Congress for money to finish the wall and to make borders secure?
and how in the world can the U.S. House of Representatives "keep the Justice Department in the dark" about these goings on?
Love, does it make Holder twice as dumb as he knew that Wide Receiver did not work and he doubled up on failed operation? Much bigger than double. DOJ is prosecution the Wide Reciever cases now so he knew. WV: nones Number of Holder's viable excuses
Love, Wide Receiver involved a quarter of the number of weapons, those weapons were actually tracked, the U.S. worked with Mexican authorities to make sure any that got across the border still had tabs on them, and once 50 or so weapons were unaccounted for the ATF shut down the program because it was too dangerous. The Obama admin engaged a gun walking program on a much larger scale, without arresting anyone, without gathering back the weapons sold to straw men, with allowing them to go to Mexico, and without alerting Mexican authorities to what they were doing, without putting into place new procedures to avoid a loss of guns, and with forcing gun dealers to sell to people they new to be strawmen, and was not shut down even after the guns started showing up at dozens of murders in Mexico, only after it became politically inconvenient to the Admin with the death of a U.S. agent. Not quite the same.
the way to ensure it doesn't happen again is for the Attorney General and those who approved it at DoJ and ATF . . . . . . to be extradited to Mexico to face criminal charges, possibly including murder charges because of the deaths resulting from their criminal conspiracy to smuggle in weapons.Seriously. The primary victims in this case are Mexicans, so let's hand the perpetrators over to Mexico. It has the advantage that any pardons issued by Obama on the way out won't have any effect, since he doesn't have any authority under Mexican laws to issue them.
AllenS -"Go ahead, and try to impeach Bush and Gonzalez."How about some jail time?Oh, wait...I'm sorry.That kind of thing only applies to the ones with whom you disagree.
Steven - Are you also including Bush and Gonzalez in this grand plan?
Robert Cook said...No need to beat around the bush: it's the CIA.when a marxist says the CIA did it, that means a marxist did it.wv: leeharvey
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew).Wide Receiver did NOT equal Fast & Furious…No we needn’t prosecute, anyone…except the folks who attempted to walk the guns across the border to México…UNLIKE Fast & Furious, but Obama thanks you for your efforts.
Doc Holliday's Bastard - You'll have to do better than that.Provide the details of exactly where all of the guns went, who was involved, who got caught, what's going to happen to all of them.Just saying the previous plan was all worked out for the better is B.S.ATF "gun-walking" began during the Bush Administration Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer became the first high-ranking official Tuesday to admit that he knew U.S. agents were letting thousands of guns sold in the U.S. fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. But Breuer says the controversial “gun walking” tactics he learned about in April 2010 weren't part of “Operation Fast and Furious,” but rather a previous investigation during the Bush administration called “Wider Receiver.” Wide Receiver was an operation during the Bush administration similar to Fast and Furious under the Obama administration where illegally purchased weapons entered Mexico instead of being stop by ATF. Under Wide Receiver, which ran from 2006 to the end of 2007, the ATF recruited a gun dealer to sell some 450 assault rifles to known straw buyers and then watched as many of those guns crossed the Mexican border.
Love -Answer this one question: Wide Receiver resulted in how many deaths?
Somehow it's Bush's fault.
Steven - Are you also including Bush and Gonzalez in this grand plan?He didn't advocate extraditing Obama, so presumably he wouldn't advocate extraditing a different President who was involved in much less serious crimes.As for Gonzales? Sure, send him too.
I do not think Eric Holder is crooked, but I do think that becoming Attorney General has been too much for him and he has gone around the bend and pretty much nanners.
Joe - I haven't read any comments saying that Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver were the same.Only that a similar program was being run under Bush.Fast and Furious was a boondoggle from day one, but the usual holier than thou B.S. you get here is disingenuous at best.Where were YOU and the others here, bashing Obama, when Wide Receiver was helping walk guns into Mexico?Nodding off?
Ha! Seems like there's "Plenty O' Outrage!" by the resident Obama Haters here, but I see no equally vigorous calls for the prosecution of those in the Bush administration for their crimes and misdemeanors: mounting an illegal war, mass murder, torture, illegal warrantless wiretapping of Americans.... For that matter, I don't see even the Obama Haters here calling for the prosecution of Obama for targeted murder of individuals abroad, including American citizens, who were not caught out fighting against American troops on any battle fields.No surprise there, of course. Y'all don't really care about the government breaking the law, just about "getting" the guy you hate. You're no different from the Democrats, in this respect.
Sofa - I have no idea how many deaths were the result of Wide Receiver.Can you provide evidence that there were none?I don't think so...unless you know exactly where the guns went and how they were used.Correct?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Where were YOU and the others here, bashing Obama, when Wide Receiver was helping walk guns into Mexico.EXCEPT, the guns didn’t end up at Mexican crime scenes, US crime scenes, and the scene of the murder of TWO US Border patrol Agents….but continue on please.
and I do think the BATF and the DEA should be abolished and their functions brought in under the FBI, so that we would know who to call on when things go wrong.
"when a marxist says the CIA did it, that means a marxist did it."Aside from the non-sequitur, did a Marxist say the same thing I said?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)I don't think so...unless you know exactly where the guns went and how they were used.But we DO, we have the serial numbers, and the F&F serial numbers turn up at crime scenes, not Wide Receiver, but thanks again for playing.
Love, I'll extradite anyone who participated in smuggling guns into Mexico without the cooperation of Mexican law enforcement. If that includes the principals in Wide Receiver, they go, too.If, on the other hand, Wide Receiver was done in cooperation with Mexican authorities, well, no, I won't turn over the Wide Receiver people to Mexico for prosecution. And yes, if it turns out Fast and Furious was done in cooperation with the Mexican authorities, I won't turn over the Fast and Furious people.
Robert Cook - Boy are you preaching to the wrong crowd.For whatever reason (sound asleep?) the crowd here completely ignores the 4,481 dead soldiers and over 33,000 wounded in the insane wars Bush got us into.It's ALL about hating on the current President, no matter what he says or does.
RC isn't a marxist. He's a statist.
Love, you're right it was 450 that went through. http://pjmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-gunning-down-the-bush-did-it-too-lie/?singlepage=trueMy point was not that the Bush Admin didn't do anything wrong, my point was that as soon as the operation was revealed to be hugely flawed, it was killed off. The Obama Admin then restarted the program, with even fewer safeguards than before, knowing what had happened previously (no more surveillance jets, no more contacting Mexican authorities when guns made it across the border, and a much larger scale) and that it didn't kill the program after guns started turning up a Mexican crime scenes. It took the death of an American agent to end the program.Bush's efforts were Keystone Kops. This was something of a whole nother order of magnitude in either incompetence or ideology.
Steven - How the hell do you or does anyone here know how either of the operations were handled? You read the same thing anybody else reads, via the media and other course, who...as we ALL know...only knows what they were told.Acting as if you know all about what the Obama and Bush administrations did or did not do is pure speculation on your and other's part.
Doc - "my point was that as soon as the operation was revealed to be hugely flawed, it was killed off."As was Fast and Furious.Correct?
Correct?You must have either intentionally missed his point or suffered cognitive dissonance (did you hear a "SPOINK" when it happened) as you read past:The Obama Admin then restarted the program, with even fewer safeguards than before, knowing what had happened previously (no more surveillance jets, no more contacting Mexican authorities when guns made it across the border, and a much larger scale) and that it didn't kill the program after guns started turning up a Mexican crime scenes. It took the death of an American agent to end the program.Which was it? Bad reading retention or spoink?
Joe - So you know exactly where all of the guns via Wide Receiver are right now?Can you provide the link to that?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)As was Fast and Furious.Correct.Uh NO, not until Agent Terry was murdered by folks with F&F weapons…thank you for your efforts.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Joe - So you know exactly where all of the guns via Wide Receiver are right now?Can you provide the link to that.Any proof, unlike in F&F, they are involved in murders in Mexico, the US and on the border?
Scott - I understood exactly what was said.And yes, I also understand the Obama administration "restrated" a similar program.What is it that YOU don't understand about my response to this:"my point was that as soon as the operation was revealed to be hugely flawed, it was killed off."As was Fast and Furious.Correct?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)As was Fast and Furious.No ATF and DoJ covered up the F&F involvement until it couldn’t be ignored, that’s what ended the program.
Joe - I have no proof that the guns via Wide Receiver were ever used or not used in any killings.How do YOU know they weren't?What would you possibly be basing such a claim on?Intuition? Wishful thinking?Or just right wing bullshit?What are your thoughts relating to the 4,481 dead soldiers and over 33,000 wounded in the two wars Bush got us into?Which is more important to you...or do you even care?
Love, it wasn't though. The program restarted in late 2009, guns had been turning up at Mexican crime scenes in March 2010 (and perhaps earlier) but the program wasn't shut down until December 2010, after Agent Terry was killed. The Obama Admin doubled down on Bush's gamble with half the hand and held it for twice as long.
As was Fast and Furious.Correct?So it was spoink. If Wide Receiver was hugely flawed, and the government is in the best of hands, the Obama administration would have restarted it (if at ALL) with far more controls, more resources, and such. The fact is, they took a horribly flawed program, removed any semblance of proper controls, and didn't stop it until a US border agent was killed.So...one hugely flawed program stopped. The next admin takes that hugely flawed program and makes takes "hugely flawed" to eleven. Then they only stop it when someone on the wrong side of the border dies at the hands of their own eleventy hugely flawed program.Your opinion of what constitutes prudent judgement concerns me.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Joe - I have no proof that the guns via Wide Receiver were ever used or not used in any killings.Because Love, had they been the NYT and Obama would be broadcasting it to the Heavens, as would you, as it is we KNOW that F&F weapons have killed several hundred Mexicans…Why doesn’t Obama care about Brown People?
After watching Gonzalez in action, listening to his lies and denials over and over again, it really takes some balls to be whining about Holder.
What are your thoughts relating to the 4,481 dead soldiers and over 33,000 wounded in the two wars Bush got us into?Which is more important to you...or do you even care?Stay on topic. Send AA an email about starting up a Bush Lied/People Died thread. Truly, it will help you from looking like you're hopelessly losing the argument.
"It's ALL about hating on the current president, no matter what he says or does."This, after spending 15 posts (so far) doing nothing more than parroting "Bush did it too!"
Scott - "So...one hugely flawed program stopped. The next admin takes that hugely flawed program and makes takes "hugely flawed" to eleven."Sounds familiar.Iraq? Afghanistan?Duh.
After watching Gonzalez in action, listening to his lies and denials over and over again, it really takes some balls to be whining about Holder.Criticism of one does not equal support for the other unless, of course, you only see the world through ideological lenses and are projecting furious. Fast even.Changing the subject over and over again isn't helping your argument. Though it is driving up the hit count...AA.
Sounds familiar.Iraq? Afghanistan?Duh.Quit changing the subject. It's making your argument look weak.
It's difficult to deal with slick liars who have had months to prepare to rehab themselves. I wonder what the committee hoped to gain from calling him to testify.I do believe he is impeachable if they can prove he lied to Congress. Maybe that was it.However, the more predictable result was that he would spew pro-administration sound bites for the MSM.
Christopher in MA - I merely pointed out the hypocrisy of bashing Obama for something Bush also did.What is it about that that bothers you?Fair play?Many here constantly also whine about Obama's stimulus plan while at the same time ignoring the fact that the whole thing got a running start with Bush's 700 billion dollar bank bailout.Same kind of hypocrisy.
hombre - "It's difficult to deal with slick liars who have had months to prepare to rehab themselves. I wonder what the committee hoped to gain from calling him to testify."Are you talking about Gonzalez?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)What are your thoughts relating to the 4,481 dead soldiers and over 33,000 wounded in the two wars Bush got us into.Deflection, Love…changing the topic? Why because you realize you ain’t gonna prosper in this one?
To all who complimented me: thanks. (I mainly wanted to post an accurate summation for anyone else who asked...)To those who wondered how I got this summation: I got it by paying attention to Mike Vanderboegh. He has been harping on this operation for most of the past year, since before hints started turning up at the CleanUpTheATF website.
So somebody is posting here who actually thinks firing US Attorneys who serve at the pleasure of the President equates with selling weapons to drug cartels and provides a similarly compelling motive to lie?
Love — Obviously, I don't know for sure. And? If the facts are shown to be different than what I've been told, I'd change my opinion on what should be done. With the supposed fact pattern before me, though, Wide Receiver should not result in Mexican jail time, while Fast and Furious should.I note, applying your standard of certainty, all that you know about, for example, how many people were killed in Iraq is what other people have reported. How do you know it's true, and shouldn't you withhold judgment of Bush accordingly? Or do you simply avoid that whole problem by forming your opinions without reference to facts, and then only bother with facts insofar as they provide ammunition for your prejudice?
Scott - What you described is certainly the same as what is represented by Iraq and Afghanistan.Which of the three: Iraq/Afghanistan or Fast and Furious do you consider to the most devastating for America?You should think before posting.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew). Love… What are your thoughts relating to the 100-200 dead Mexican citizens and two dead US Border patrol Agents? Or do you even care?
Love wrote: Are you talking about Gonzalez?Have you had your head up your ass for the last couple of days?
Steven "Love — Obviously, I don't know for sure. And? If the facts are shown to be different than what I've been told, I'd change my opinion on what should be done."Then what is your point, other than bashing the Obama administration?You have no real facts to back up what you say about Wide Receiver, only partisan conjecture.For all you or I know, there could be a 1,000 dead people related to Wide Receiver.Correct?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Which of the three: Iraq/Afghanistan or Fast and Furious do you consider to the most devastating for America.Stay on topic, which do you think is ore devastating to your case, that you keep trying to debate Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Fast & Furious?
Which of the three: Iraq/Afghanistan or Fast and Furious do you consider to the most devastating for America?Stop changing the topic. I'll certainly answer that question in a thread on the subject or if you'll post your email here so I can send the answer personally.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)For all you or I know, there could be a 1,000 dead people related to Wide Receiver.We don’t know, because no one has reported any from Wide Receiver, but they HAVE reported 200 dead Mexicans and two dead US Border Agents from F&F, or do you even care?
For all you or I know, there could be a 1,000 dead people related to Wide Receiver.Correct?Yes. And 5000 could be dead as a result of F & F. This is why your entire line of argument here is going no where and is starting to look a little ridiculous.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew).To deflect from F&F and to demand non-existent proof of Wide Receiver is “disingenuous” Love….I’m enjoying parroting back your phrase, BTW…..
hombre - Your comment could easily fit Gonzalez and his testimony.Correct?Hombre: "It's difficult to deal with slick liars who have had months to prepare to rehab themselves. I wonder what the committee hoped to gain from calling him to testify.""Gonzales Digs a Deeper Hole"(Time/Politics)"Just when it seemed that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' reputation on Capitol Hill couldn't possibly get much worse, he showed up Tuesday for yet another hearing. And as with so many of his recent appearances before Congress, his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee raised a lot more troubling questions than it answered — not just about his own conduct of and honesty about the U.S. attorney firings, but also about the Administration's domestic intelligence gathering programs."
Love--I know why the fonts in your comment section are suddenly small. Your keyboard is embarrassed.
IIRC Mr Obama endorsed the Afghan adventure-- But as ScottM correctly points out, those wars have nothing to do with Fast and Furious--and IIRC Mr Holder in earlier testimony denied knowledge and by so doing lied to congress.But I am a self proclaimed Obama hater
Joe - I'm not deflecting anything.You and I have absolutely no idea how many people have been killed via Wide Receiver or Fast and Furious.If you do...provide the evidence of such.You and I both think both operations were poorly planned, executed and not what we expect from our own government.Other than that, almost all that is being posted here represents nothing more than a bunch of conservatives beating up on Holder and the administration....for something the administration they themselves supported...for doing previously.
As was Fast and Furious. Correct?Incorrect. The people who pointed out its flaws were punished; it didn't get cancelled until the press started to get wind of it.
Roger - "Hate" is an overused term that should be confined to small children and people who don't think before speaking or posting comments.It makes you look silly.
Love,If you want to make the point that Wide Receiver was a stupid idea, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.Even more stupid was the Obama administration doubling down on the concept.If you cannot come to grips with that, then you deserve to be dismissed as a hyperpartisan hack with zero credibilty.Have a nice day.
Revenant "Incorrect. The people who pointed out its flaws were punished;"Huh?Who has been punished for "pointing out its flaws?"
Love: perhaps if the DOJ would respond to subpoenas we might know a few more facts than we do now.Similarly, if the white house would respond to subponas about Solanrya we might have a few more facts to work with.
You and I have absolutely no idea how many people have been killed via Wide Receiver or Fast and Furious.I also have absolutely no idea how many people you, Love, have killed. Now, we know that Jeffrey Dahmer killed 17 people, but for all we know you've killed 100 people. So why is it that Jeffrey Dahmer was sent to prison and you were not? How can this travesty of justice be explained by any thinking person?
Crunchy Frog "Love, If you want to make the point that Wide Receiver was a stupid idea, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.Even more stupid was the Obama administration doubling down on the concept."Agreed.I've never defended Fast and Furious.I've merely pointed out the over the top hypocrisy of so many of the comments posted here today.
Sofa - Go away.
Love: what is it about sarcasm that you dont understand?I suppose I should put a sarcasm tag on some of my comments--and if my comments make me look small in your eyes, I rather take that as mark of success. Because, dear heart, I really dont give a damn what you think of me.
Roger - Now you're roping Solanrya into the mix?You've got to be kidding.Solanrya is all over with, Dude.
Love--my last comment to you: my larger point that you obviously didnt get had to do was with the administration's ignoring subpoenas.I do regret not making more clearly so you could understand it. Have a nice day. and namaste
Roger - Rather touchy are we?You're the one who posted this childish tripe:"But I am a self proclaimed Obama hater."It speaks for itself...and please, don't give me that "sarcasm" drivel.I'm not buying it.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)The failed gun-running surveillance operation, code-named Fast and Furious by the ATF, has now been linked to the torture and killing of Mexican attorney, Mario Gonzalez Rodriguez:.Holder says the carnage linked to Fast and Furious is likely to continue for years. Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/11/07/20111107fast-and-furious-gun-scandal-holder-testimony-politico.html#ixzz1d8y13TsZFellow congressman Humberto Trevino claims that an estimated 150 shooting injuries or deaths have been linked to guns that were allowed by US agents to proceed into Mexico.Wide Receiver reported deaths…ZERO.
Roger - They ALL ignore subpoenas.Correct?
Roger - They ALL ignore subpoenas.Correct?More deflection. Honestly, Love. Do you have any other arrows in that woefully under-equipped quiver?
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) Love said...Sofa - Go away..Go away Sofa King, you make Love look foolish and illogical….Thankfully you are not Dust Bunny Queen or you would also be a hateful and bitter person….
Joe - Do you know what the term; "reported" means?You can bitch and whine about this all day, but we both know that neither of us have any inkling as to how many have died via Wide Receiver.Correct?
Ah, now I see. "Duh." The exhortations to read a book. The wailing that poor Little Black Jesus just can't get a break from those eeeeeeeevilll Rethuglicans. The repetition of "squirrel." The dismissal of anyone trying to keep on topic as being 'silly.'And the dog."Love" is Jeremy.I see no further need to waste time on this thread.wv - "tedis." ys, 'tis.
Joe - So you feel this is fairly intellectual observation from your friend Sofa King? And that it somehow makes me look "foolish?""I also have absolutely no idea how many people you, Love, have killed. Now, we know that Jeffrey Dahmer killed 17 people, but for all we know you've killed 100 people. So why is it that Jeffrey Dahmer was sent to prison and you were not? How can this travesty of justice be explained by any thinking person?"Duh.
"Love" is Jeremy.I see no further need to waste time on this thread.Yeah, the "duh" kinda gave it away. Ditto.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) You can bitch and whine about this all day, but we both know that neither of us have any inkling as to how many have died via Wide Receiver.CorrectWe cannot know how many people died in the Holocaust nor the Rwandan Civil War nor the wars in the Congo, does that mean they didn’t happen? We can know that there ARE reported deaths from F& F and were there any reported for Wide Receiver you and Holder would be trumpeting them far and wide…my conclusion no one died from Wide Receiver, but we do know at least there and possibly 150 more died from F&F….Arguing from “ignorance” that “we cannot know” something is a poor argument, just barely above the “N’uh Uh” Level of argument. So to sum up so far from you we have “Bush did it”, “Iraq was worse”, and “We can’t know that Wide Receiver DIDN’T KILL 100,00 Mexicans?” And this is one of your good days, right?
Scott - You and other appear to think that when one counters with something that might also relate to those with whom you agree (GOP administrations), relating to such things as ignoring subpoenas and such...that it somehow represents a "deflection."No...it represents an illustration of hypocrisy on your part.Until pushed up against a wall, they ALL ignore subpoenas.You need to read more.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) Any way Jeremy yes Sofa King did make you look foolish and illogical, by demonstrating the logical flaws in your position…and then your crushing response, “Go away.”
sorepaw - Childish chatter.
Christopher in MA "And the dog. "Love" is Jeremy."Huh?
Solanrya(sic) is all over with, Dude.I LOVE these America's Politico posts.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)sorepaw - Childish chatter The Unit known as “Jeremy” is running out of computational power and is being reduced to two word responses, “Go away” or “Childish chatter”; I would say that the programming was sparse.
Jeremy: "you need to read more..." and "duh" pretty much give you away.Got to up your game son--if you cant lapse into your previous personas. anyway welcome back--you'll drive up the hit count.
Sofa - Go away.Request denied.
Love wrote: hombre - Your comment could easily fit Gonzalez and his testimony.Correct?Only if you are trying to divert attention away from current events or have had your head up your ass for a couple of days.I'm not defending Gonzalez and considerable moral equivocation is necessary to suppose Gonzalez had as strong a motive to lie as Holder. But then, a penchant for moral equivocation as well as immunity to cognitive dissonance is prerequisite to defending folks like Holder and his boss.
Sorry boys and girls, I have no idea who Jeremy is...and by the way...if you think that's a dog you need to have your eyes checked.And can I assume this means you've acquiesced and agree that I've been correct here today?Hypocrisy run wild?
(...)and didn't stop it until a US border agent was killed.Well, not quite. It was only stopped when someone blew the whistle that the agent was killed by an F&F gun. This was some time after the killing. The program was NOT shut down when the investigation revealed the F&F connection; only when someone dropped a dime on the connection in the investigation. They stopped because they got caught. wv: torid. Damn. wv scares me.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)And can I assume this means you've acquiesced and agree that I've been correct here today?Hypocrisy run wild Uh no, you’ve had your head handed to you here today…with “Bush did it”…”Iraq, Bush Lied, People Died”, “Uh you can’t PROVE a million Mexicans weren’t killed by Bush and Wide Receiver”, and then your Progressive fallback, “Y’all are just a bunch of hypocrites.” Pretty much everything you tossed out got batted back at your head…only in Jeremy Land does this count as a “victory” for you.And remember, we’re not laughing WITH you, but AT you….
Love: prove you are not Jeremy--or in your prior incarnation lucky old son?--what is it about you that you are unable to to establish a persona and stick with it? Big hint here: if you are going to assume a different persona, dont stay with the old schtick--its a dead give away--as to the avatar? I do hope the two labs you had as your prior avatar are OK--
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) Jeremy you’d have done better, if you’d advanced some far-fetched notion like the Zombie Apocalypse rather than the thin gruel you’ve actually tried…
Joe - Every time somebody counters with a different opinion, you all try to gang up and then scream about how you're beating them up or handing their head to them...as if ONLY your comments are relevant. Why not run over to Sofa King's pad and smoke a joint.Relax.Take some time to actually read up on some of this before posting the usual tripe.You're more worried about F&F or some failed energy company than the 4,000 dead soldiers and 33,000 wounded as a result of the failed policies of the man you supported.I find that kind of sad...and hypocritical.
Roger - I don't know how to "prove" what you ask, but I will tell you this: if you and others think that picture is of a dog...you're out of your mind.
Jeremy: if only your comments were relevant--they are not and you are an ass
Jeremy--it looks to be a cat--I was inquiring about the two labs you used on your last avatarI vouchsafed no opinions about your current avatar
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) You're more worried about F&F or some failed energy company than the 4,000 dead soldiers and 33,000 wounded as a result of the failed policies of the man you supported.I find that kind of sad...and hypocritical What’s sad is watching you try to flounder around and then try a pathetic attempt at deflection…back to the “Bush Lied, People Died” meme are you? Oh Penalty Points for Over-Use of “Hypocritical”
Jeremy: sarcasm does escape you--but then again you are a fool and have been so since three iterations on this blog.
Joe - And we're back to that deflection thingie?Try to get this through your thick skull: I find the constant Obama bashing to be sometimes relevant because I don't agree with everything the man does, but...to act as if he has suddenly invented operations like F7F, and that previous ventures are just irrelevant is nothing more than partisan bullshit.
I've got to go, but I'll say one thing for sure; this Jeremy character has evidently had a pretty dramatic impact on some of you...and I applaud him or her for that.Little Roger probably "hates" him even more than Obama.
Jeremy, son-as I said sarcasm escapes you--I really dont "hate" mr obama--he's simply a twit. The only thing I hate is the designator hitter rule. Now THAT is something to be hated.Namaste Jeremy--and son--you really have to up your game--you are flailing here.
Solanrya is all over with, Dude.All except the paying for it.
The charges of hypocrisy might carry more weight (>0) is not for one simple fact: Althouse is not Red State. There are no Bush apologists here. "Bush did it too!" is not a valid response, not when Obama seems intent on taking every Bush mistake (and God knows there were plenty) and turning them up to eleven.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)Try to get this through your thick skull: I find the constant Obama bashing to be sometimes relevant because I don't agree with everything the man does, but...to act as if he has suddenly invented operations like F7F, and that previous ventures are just irrelevant is nothing more than partisan bullshit As the “Previous ventures” had far fewer ill effects and infinitely more arrests I’d say you are reaching…and if by “Previous ventures” you mean Iraq and Afghanistan, I’d say you’re deflecting….
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)I wonder what the next incarnation of “Jeremy” will be?
Why do I get the feeling that quote ("It must never happen again") means "We must never get caught again"?wv tsingetTsinget again, Eric.
I wonder what the next incarnation of “Jeremy” will be?Well, he skipped the letter K and went from Jeremy to Love, so I assume the next moniker will be something like Nathan or Nosepicker.
Obama's "under the radar" op didn't end so well did it, Eric?Keep stonewalling brother.That he is allowed to return to his office is an abomination. Or is that "obamination?"And to ask for more money? Even "hubris" doesn't do that justice.
Love --"Sofa - I have no idea how many deaths were the result of Wide Receiver.Can you provide evidence that there were none?"Not necessary as one doesn't have to prove a negative. Since you are the one equating the two, it's incumbent on you to prove deaths, not the other way 'round.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)And to ask for more money? Even "hubris" doesn't do that justiceThe word you’re looking for is Chutzpah. It’s operationalized by pleading for mercy at the murder trial of your parents, because now you’re an orphan. Same thing here, ask for MORE money after the money you just spent killed 150 Mexicans and two US Border patrol Agents, just think what we could do with TWICE the funds!
@ Fen 11:51 She's [Pelosi]definitely a candidate for tar & feathersI was thinking an extended visit at Betty Ford.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)I was thinking an extended visit at Betty FordDo they treat Botox Intoxication at Betty Ford…I don’t think there’s a treatment for “Cluelessness.”
"Eric Holder: Fast & Furious was "flawed in its concept, and flawed in its execution.""But so far a success in obfuscation! So there's that.
Love --"You can bitch and whine about this all day, but we both know that neither of us have any inkling as to how many have died via Wide Receiver.Correct?"You understand that repeatedly slapping "Correct?" on the end of your posts in no way makes your previous statements logically worthwhile. Correct?
Love impales herself with her own Tu Quo. Too funny.
@ Hagar 12:38 I do not think Eric Holder is crookedHolder is a speckled bird. He is covered with cr*p from so many weird interventions. Boricua (FALN), Mark Rich, New Black Panthers, racist DOJ hiring, CAIR protections, denial of protection of the law to non-entitled minorities or belief groups, recommending Weather Underground convicted murderers be pardoned, violating Federal law re firearm records .... Yeah, well, crooked might not be the actual word.
@ Cook did a Marxist say the same thing I said?Dollars to donuts some marxist somewhere has said it.
@ Joe re Pelosi: Heh.Did you see her in the news conference when Steve Kroft questioned her? Talk about obfuscation, and skating, and not answering the question. What was striking (besides her political BSing) were her paralyzed, smooth face muscles, and *weird* -- totally *weird* -- eyes. It was like she was saying "I will not blink. I will not blink. I will not blink" while holding her eyes wide open (whites showing in 3 sides sometimes.)It is hard for me to fathom the people of San Francisco -- weird as they are, even -- wanting this woman to represent them.But. Back to Holder ...
Joe - Do you know what the term; "reported" means?You can bitch and whine about this all day, but we both know that neither of us have any inkling as to how many have died via Wide ReceiverSay, Love...when DID you stop beating your children?
Many here constantly also whine about Obama's stimulus plan while at the same time ignoring the fact that the whole thing got a running start with Bush's 700 billion dollar bank bailout.No conservative I know supported it. Republicans were blamed for killing it in the House initially.HOWEVER, most of that money has been paid back.Porkulus? Not so much.
I thought of chutzpah first, but then checked my definition, and sure enough -- that has a more or less a positive "gutsy" kind of use.What Holder is doing isn't gutsy, it's arrogant.These guys really have no concept of the America where They. Workl. For. Us.And yes, I think throwing them in prison or punishing them would be fine. And Love, you seem to be smoking the kool aid, not drinking it. Get
BTW: "bitch and whine" is another phrase well overused by Jeremy when he was posting as JeremyDude: get help--you are seriously fucked up
It was flawed alright, from Holder's perspective: They got caught.
When is this felon going to be impeached? Watergate killed no one, but Nixon resigned. Holder has killed more than Janet Reno...Is it because most of them were Mexicans, or because he's a Democrat?
Scott M said... Oblivious. And. Tone. Deaf. The main problem with the above is that Holder is the top man. The. Top. Man.Yes, but there's an even topper man.
I never had the "pleasure" to read any of Jeremy's posts, so I can't comment on whether Love is in fact them or not. I do know that different people write differently. Its called "voice".Think of your favorite author. If they had written a book under a pseudonym would you recognize it? What about a letter from your spouse. Or parents?It's a subtle thing, but can be intuited. The words chosen, the meter of the sentence, the phrases used correctly and incorrect;y, are like a finger print. Dealing with LOVE just on a rational side, no we can't KNOW if any people died from Wide Reciever. Hell I know people that deny the Holocaust happened. After all they never saw it themselves, and all evidence can be manufactured.There's this thing we have to have in our society called trust. We have to trust the other person driving the on-coming car is able. We have to trust our bank won't take all the money and go to Hawaii. And we have to trust our government.But its hard to trust a government when the leading figures are either complete idiots, overwhelmed, or just criminal. Two are grounds for dismissal, the third for incarceration. With out responding to the subpoena requests, we have to make a judgement call. I would LIKE to think the AG for the USA wasn't an idiot, or incompetent, so what does that leave?Personally, I think nothing is going to happen to AG Holder except a presidential pardon at the end of the angry sock monkeys term. Too many skeletons in that closet to ever let out.
Who has been punished for "pointing out its flaws?"John Dodson
"Love" writes exactly the same as "Jeremy" did, minus the crude sexual insults. Otherwise, the same dull, stupid anger.
I think it's a good measure of what a total clusterfuck F&F is that only Jeremy and Cookie have even bothered to show up on this thread.George Bush!!! Warcrimes!!!
Love the attempted spin. But it just makes Love, et al. look ignorant and mendacious. About all that we got from Holder yesterday was that his line is going to be that he has over 100,000 employees under him, cannot be expected to know what they are all doing, and just because memos are addressed to him doesn't mean that he read them, or even received them. We shouldn't have been surprised in the least by this tack by Holder - it was pretty much what he said about the Marc Rich pardon when he was being confirmed for Attorney General. There, he again played dumb, despite having apparently spent a lot of time working on a Marc Rich related case while the USA for D.C. The other related thing to keep your eyes on with Holder here and his past - one of his excuses for stone walling is that the DoJ IG is investigating. IGs are supposed to be independent. The Obama Administration has pretty well gutted that in a lot of departments, and, in particular, the DoJ, where the IG there is a Holder protege, who worked for him when he was the D.C. USA, and apparently worked closely with him while there, including signing a number of briefs together. It is a fine line that Holder is trying to walk - on the one hand, that he didn't receive memos directed to him and that if he did receive them, he was too busy to read them, and on the other hand, that he is competent to run his department. But, in the end, incompetence is probably a better defense than the alternative, that he was aware of, and (implicitly or explicitly) approved, the Fast and Furious program, plus a number of other gun walking programs around the country being run by his department.
But, if Holder was ignorant of Fast and Furious, then who did know about it in his department? To run such an inter-agency, inter-departmental, inter-district program, would require pretty high level participation and approval - most likely at the level of his direct reports. Getting back to his see-no-evil/hear-no-evil defense - Holder, while mouthing the words that the buck stops with him, was still trying to get off by blaming it all on the size of his department. But, I think that ignores the problem that if his department is too big for him to manage, then why does he think that he is competent to run it?
Holder is crookedHolder is a speckled bird. He is covered with cr*p from so many weird interventions. That is part of what is so interesting here. Holder is, indeed, the most tainted AG that we have seen in most of our lifetimes. And, yes, I am including Nixon's AG Mitchell. What is scary though is that such a tainted AG can be defended so aggressively by the left, MSM, etc. Gonzales was run off because he may have fired seven political appointees for political reasons. Holder, with a lot of actual blood on his hands, plus numerous other questionable actions during his time as AG, USA for DC, etc, is still considered the paradigm of honesty required for the highest law enforcement official in our country. Apparently because of the color of his skin, and little else and his party affiliation, and little else.
Why can't someone hold Holder accountable for NOT holding people accountable for this tragic travesty? He would not name anyone who was accountable to him for this?The why Holder didn't answer the question is obvious.He can't name people without having them interrogated and it comes out that he and Barack double teamed this "under the radar" thing to throw the gun law.This is more than disgusting.As for the worn out "Bush did it too" whineys, this from PJTatler today (11/10).
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