October 20, 2011

"Until the teachers' unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform."

Steve Jobs told Barack Obama, when they met in the fall of 2010.
Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year.

131 comments:

Big Mike said...

Steve Jobs is far from being alone. Break the teachers unions, or forget about educational reform forever.

Beldar said...

Bold words, though, from a college dropout.

Cindy Martin said...

That sounds great to me but we should compensate teachers more for the extra time...and get rid of pensions( and compensate them a little more for that too) Too many costs are backloaded and make it hard to balance budgets.

Mogget said...

To effectively reform education you will also need to get to the Colleges of Education...

America's Politico said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
America's Politico said...

Jobs is right about teachers but totally, insanely, wrong about the POTUS re-election.

Believe me, all my sources at WH and on the Hill, as well as in the media say the same thing: Obama will defeat Perry in every state. The biggest victory will be in Texas.

GOP: Please, please, I beg you: nominate Perry. I really, really want the corner office after this election cycle.

2012 is a victory year at WH for the POTUS and in Congress. Pelosi returns as the Speaker and Reid continues his superb leadership.

Jobs know technology insanely. He was insanely wrong in politics.

YoungHegelian said...

Isn't this obvious to everyone except the teachers' union?

I mean, Democrats may be stuck with the teachers' union, but that doesn't mean even they LIKE them.

roesch/voltaire said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
roesch/voltaire said...

Actually there is all kinds of educational reform taking place, yes even in public education. The Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, the North Carolina high school for the gifted attached to UNC, and of course Stuyvesant and the Bronx High School of Science all of which have produced Westinghouse Science Talent winners because of their highly paid teachers, small classes and intense mentoring programs that go on far beyond the normal nine month schedule. But the wingers like to ignore these schools, along with the excellent suburban public schools that continue to produce strong students. While innovative education is an important factor, it costs money. And the other an obvious factor is often the socio and economic status of the students.

Psychedelic George said...

"...the president's fondness for cream pies."

That's rich.

Paddy O said...

"allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit"

Allowing principals to be despots over a small territory.

From what I've heard from many teacher friends, principals are often the problem in a school, not the solution.

YoungHegelian said...

@AP (you big moby, you!)

"2012 is a victory year at WH for the POTUS and in Congress. Pelosi returns as the Speaker and Reid continues his superb leadership."

No, AP. January 2013 will be the beginning of the Babylonian Exile of the Democratic Party (WH, Senate, House gone). You heard it here first.

How long it'll take them to find their way back to Zion, God only knows.

garage mahal said...

America ranks at the bottom of the 21 industrialized countries in children's welfare, but the industrialist tyrant Jobs thought schools need to be run like a corporation, like Apple. Who by the way employs student aged kids in Chinese sweatshops with workplace conditions so horrid they had to build cages in their work dormitories to keep them from comitting suicide. Jobs was a major league asshole.

roesch/voltaire said...

Side note, I taught in a public high school for thirteen years, and every time I suggest educational reform such as starting a creative writing program to block scheduling, it was the school board that blocked the suggestions, not the union. On the other hand, I admit there were some weak and disorganized teachers, a very small number, who had low expectations for their students and it took years before the principal was able to either help them improve, or get them removed.

timmaguire42 said...

I'm fine with all of that, except that the school day shouldn't be extended to 6 PM, it should be shifted to start no earlier than 9 AM and end at...whatever that works out to. It's nuts how early school starts. There's no reason for it and it leaves our children needlessly sleep-deprived.

Yes, and principals should be able to easily fire teachers, superintendents should be able to easily fire principals, and the PTA should be able to easily fire the superintendent.

Kit said...

Bold words, though, from a college dropout.

...and from a guy who died early from favoring alternative therapies. Hmmm.

Joe Schmoe said...

Talk about power speaking truth to power.

It's telling that Barry chose to listen to academic frauds like Austen Powerless Foolsbee and ignore the likes of Jobs.

Maguro said...

Giving principals the power to hire and fire would be a swell idea if most public school principals were as smart and dedicated as Steve Jobs. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

MayBee said...

From what I've heard from many teacher friends, principals are often the problem in a school, not the solution.

That may be true, but teachers really don't like being supervised and too often balk at being evaluated.

E.M. Davis said...

"allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit"

Allowing principals to be despots over a small territory.


Someone has to do it.

Chip S. said...

r-v said: But the wingers like to ignore these schools...

This is completely false.

But any time we wingers point to any successful public schools, the leftards immediately cry "selection bias".

In what important ways to you think Stuyvesant and Bronx Science differ from charter schools?

edutcher said...

Jobs undoubtedly saw the decline in worker quality over the years and was rightly concerned.

That he spoke up, given his support for GodZero, says much good about him, although I was unaware the teacher unions were broken - yet.

PS Love this from the article, "Jobs suggested that Obama meet six or seven other CEOs who could express the needs of innovative businesses -- but when White House aides added more names to the list, Jobs insisted that it was growing too big and that 'he had no intention of coming.'"

Jobs had brains enough - and integrity enough - not to be part of another of Zero's dog and pony shows.

Spread Eagle said...

That sounds great to me but we should compensate teachers more for the extra time...

And dock them for the extraordinary time off they get.

I have NO sympathy for public school teachers. They're aboard one of the biggest gravy trains in all creation.

Quaestor said...

America's Politico wrote:
Jobs know technology insanely. He was insanely wrong in politics.

Insane words (and ungrammatical to boot) from the resident loony.

They've got to up the meds. Politico still thinks the ward is the corner 21st Street and Connecticut Avenue.

rcocean said...

This from a "Buddhist" who declined surgery to try "alternative medicine".

Yep, Steve Jobs was "brilliant".

Look, people can't even deal with reality. The reality is that "education" doesn't consist of your kid going to school and some dedicated teacher opening up his/her brain and pouring knowledge in.

Learning is due to (1) the effort the individual student (2) the parents providing a atmosphere that encourages learning (3) the school environment and (4) the ability of the student.

Don't ask me to defend Teacher's unions, but the idea that they are the great obstacle to "Education reform" (whatever that means) is absurd.

m stone said...

Learning is due to (1) the effort the individual student (2) the parents providing a atmosphere that encourages learning (3) the school environment and (4) the ability of the student.

I agree. And it follows that the dumping more money into public education and the bureaucracy will not yield any improvement.

Peano said...

Believe me, all my sources at WH and on the Hill, as well as in the media say the same thing: Obama will defeat Perry in every state.

"Sources at WH and on the Hill" have never been wrong in their electoral predictions. At least, that's what MY source tell ME.

Peano said...

Bold words, though, from a college dropout.

I suppose that's one way to put it. Here's another: Bold words from the creator of one of the most successful and innovative multinational corporations in history.

Take your pick.

edwardroyce said...

"Learning is due to (1) the effort the individual student (2) the parents providing a atmosphere that encourages learning (3) the school environment and (4) the ability of the student."

Well since the teacher doesn't have any responsibility then we should simply fire all the teachers then and stick the kids in a massive library.

Bravo!

MarkG said...

Garage: "America ranks at the bottom of the 21 industrialized countries in children's welfare...[Apple] by the way employs student aged kids in Chinese sweatshops...

So what is your criteria for "children's welfare?" You say we're at the bottom, but then give an example of China, surely an industrialized country, which has sweatshops "where workplace conditions so horrid they had to build cages in their work dormitories to keep them from comitting suicide."

What the hell are you talking about?

edwardroyce said...

"Bold words, though, from a college dropout."

Bold words from a guy running a company with more cash than the US Treasury Dept.

Personally I've always thought Jobs was a complete blowhard. Especially his peculiar hatred of cooling fans which has caused more than a little engineering problems with Apple products.

edwardroyce said...

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

You know the drill. Liberals rely on nonsensical BS like that to "prove" some silly talking point.

Palladian said...

"Especially his peculiar hatred of cooling fans which has caused more than a little engineering problems with Apple products."

Cooling fans suck.

My huge MacPro has its share of fans, though they rarely activate. When they do, during some particularly processor-intensive operation, it's startling. It sounds like a little jet in there, for a few moments.

MadisonMan said...

There's no reason for it and it leaves our children needlessly sleep-deprived.

If your kids went to bed at a reasonable hour, a 9 AM start time would seem ludicrously late.

My kid starts school at 8:12. That's perfectly fine - he's up at 7:30, when the sun is up, has a breakfast, takes a shower, and strolls to school.

Year-round school is not something I encourage either. What's wrong with a summer off to do nothing but wile away the time?

Peter Hoh said...

This works if you have good principals, and a pool of good teachers for them to pick from.

MayBee said...

Year-round school is not something I encourage either. What's wrong with a summer off to do nothing but wile away the time?

Oh, MadMan. I so agree with you here.

MarkG said...

My kid starts school at 8:12. That's perfectly fine - he's up at 7:30...

Where I'm living, the high school kids are at the bus stop at 6:30. I don't think those kids are getting enough sleep.

rcocean said...

The other questions left unanswered are:

Education for what? And what is being taught - and why?

rcocean said...

"Well since the teacher doesn't have any responsibility then we should simply fire all the teachers then and stick the kids in a massive library."

Did you take the SAT test? 'Cause I think your verbal score was less than 500, given your poor reading skills.

Carol_Herman said...

If the truth be known ... only about 20% of the pupils can make it in an academic environment.

That's why there used to be classes called "shop."

Then, along came Dubya.

he said "everyone is entitled to own a nice home."

And, for good measure he added "and, leave no child's behind."

The teachers got to sit on top of all these garbage pails. Knowing nothing they did would help these kids learn either reading, or math.

But "sitting on top of the garbage pail" ... doesn't come cheap.

But it sure did dumb down the quality of lots of those teachers! Because sane people don't want to spend their 8 hour workdays sitting on top of garbage pails.

And, then? We shipped out all the jobs that put clothes on your backs ... and shoes on your feet ... "overseas." Even the sailors who move this stuff ... aren't Americans!

Damage has been done.

And, today? Unemployable kids don't even know how to sew.

And, McDonald's got picky! They don't hire the face pierced lemmings. And, tattoos won't move you into management jobs.

I don't even blame the teachers.

Like an old bumper sticker I saw that read: "IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THANK A TEACHER."

bagoh20 said...

Well,Duh.

Mrs. X said...

roesch/voltaire
"Actually there is all kinds of educational reform taking place, yes even in public education. The Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, the North Carolina high school for the gifted attached to UNC, and of course Stuyvesant and the Bronx High School of Science..."

Stuyvesant and Bronx Science have been achieving excellent results since they opened in 1904 and 1938, respectively. Excellent schools? Yes. Examples of current educational reform? Not so much.

Carol_Herman said...

When one man's job could feed a family ... and, women married so they coould stay home with the kids ... The summers off made sense.

Today, both parents work hard. The kids need to be supervised. The old school yards that were safe to go to when empty after school, are no longer safe places for kids to play!

And, "sports" has become so regimented ... kids no longer kick cans. Or bat balls with sticks.

So, go ahead. Blame teachers.

But guess who spoiled it all?

Were kids supposed to be turned into geniuses? Parents have no time! And, moms aren't there during the day to "supervise."

Of course, people were poor ...

Stories from the Lower East Side ... had kids playing on the streets because the living spaces were so cramped.

But a mom could stick her head out the window. The entire neighborhood was full of people who knew you, too.

You'll never get to good teaching methodologies ... until teachers can leave kids who didn't learn the material BACK!

We took the tools that work out of their hands.

And, the teachers know the truth! They know they're saddled with Administrators!

The Administrators aren't "unionized." They're just the bosses ... who flit about all day ... making "paper demands."

Keep up an environment that's UNREALISTIC ... Ya gotta be a politician to love this stuff!

When you get serious about attracting the best ... you'll first take DDT to the Administration offices. And, get rid of the crap that "oversees all."

Good teachers are still a blessing.

Tim said...

"Isn't this obvious to everyone except the teachers' union?"

No. It is especially obvious to the teachers' unions. That's exactly why they resist reforms so strenuously.

Carol_Herman said...

First off, The Bronx School for Science once only accepted male students. And, students TESTED for those seats! It wasn't a neighborhood school at all!

The "under class" back in those days ... was composed of lots of bright white people. Where dads worked in factories. And, then their SONS were the first generation to go to college.

Which was aided by the GI Bill.

The GI Bill followed on the heels of the end of WW2. With more than a million men coming out of uniform. And, since the job market wasn't strong ... Congress offered veterans "deals."

Men of 25, returning from their military service, made an entirely new population at colleges! Way more serious than 18 year olds.

Maybe, at 18 ... we should "draft" kids ... so that they mature with a marine sergeant teaching them about reality? Perhaps, we shouldn't allow kids into college until they turn 25?

We could also give remedial training to 18 year olds ... until they do college level math. And, have writing skills.

Other countries make their students work ten times harder than most of are kids are ever exposed to.

bagoh20 said...

"Bold words, though, from a college dropout."

The thing about being a college drop out is that you know what college is, including how important that sheepskin is to a lot of people, but you still choose not to do it. That takes courage, and conviction. You are trusting your own abilities and drive, over the the conventional wisdom. That's a quality that makes a great and successful business person. Most don't have what it takes to do that. They just do what they're told is best.

Like Jobs, I'm a drop out, and I think my very successful career in business would never have happened had I finished my senior year and got the job I trained for, and certainly would not have happened had I gone on to graduate school.

There is is a deep, basic difference between people like me (or Jobs) and academics. As soon as we learn something, we want to use it to DO something. Generally, I think academics just want to learn more about it and get credit for knowing it.

cubanbob said...

The problem with a teachers union is that its a union.
Unions are supposed to lookout for their members, not third parties. And that is what teacher's union do, look after their members no matter how lazy or incompetent. The child's education is at best a secondary consideration as far as the union is concerned.

Beldar, bold words indeed but he was right. Jobs as CEO was interested in well educated managers and engineers and for that he needed well educated graduates. Which is an entirely different skill and mindset from that of an entrepreneur. There is an expression that goes as follows "A engineers work for B engineers in companies owned by C engineers."

kimsch said...

Summers off started so kids could spend the summer helping out on the family farm. Year round school (especially high school and beyond) would be better as it reflects the real life working world.

wv: ellye

Geoff Matthews said...

How was this guy a democrat and revered by leftists?
In addition to his radical approach to education, he shipped jobs overseas, exploited 3rd-world labor, encouraged mindless devotion to a brand, and was a rich, white male (who got lots of perks from his employer, effectively avoiding taxes on many things).

Carol_Herman said...

If principals can "hire and fire" at will, you'll be seeing big-boobed teachers getting jobs. And, when the affair exits, so will they. Without recourse to lawsuits.

Back in the old days? The bosses "chased their secretaries" around the desk. Human nature doesn't change.

And, Steve Jobs got confused with the Chinese labor he hired. Which kept Chinese people in slavery. While Apple products were always expensive. Because Steve Jobs was interested in the money.

Keeping schools open for long hours? I guess we will have to ship all the kids to China. And, hope for the best.

WHAT BULLSHIT!

Will Obama be a one-termer?

Doesn't it all depend on what the GOP does with its choice for candidate?

Did you notice how the media colluded in having Michele Bachmann knock off Sarah Palin's headline space?

You mean you thought it was "so natural?"

Not me. I'm skeptical of all media hype.

What teachers need is what they just got in Wisconsin. A chance to VOTE if they want to have their union dues deducted from their paychecks. Or not.

buwaya said...

"The Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, the North Carolina high school for the gifted attached to UNC, and of course Stuyvesant and the Bronx High School of Science "

And a lot of others, but overall a tiny, tiny fraction of public schools.

All select most of their students by competitive exams or grades. Of course they excel - they work only with the best material.

Thats not the point.

Gwen said...

Year-round school doesn't have to mean no long breaks.

I live in Korea. There is year- round school here, but the kids have a month off in July and another in January.

Schools typically run supplemental programs in English, math, and science during these breaks for anyone interested in attending.

The new school year begins in March, and there is about a week of vacation beforehand.

Canuck said...

"Where I'm living, the high school kids are at the bus stop at 6:30. I don't think those kids are getting enough sleep."

I was at a 6:45 start time swim practice.

But staying at school until 6:00 pm would have been counter-productive and exhausting. I would also have been hungry. Lunch at noon and nothing to eat until after 6:00 pm?

Jay said...

This is great:

“You’re headed for a one-term presidency,” he told Obama at the start of their meeting, insisting that the administration needed to be more business-friendly. As an example, Jobs described the ease with which companies can build factories in China compared to the United States, where “regulations and unnecessary costs” make it difficult for them.

I'm guessing Obama didn't grasp the concept.

Jay said...

America ranks at the bottom of the 21 industrialized countries in children's welfare.

Hilarious.

America ranks at the top of the 21 industrialized nations of left wing dipshits making dumb comments on the Internet.

frank said...

@ Carol: Like an old bumper sticker I saw that read: "IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THANK A TEACHER."

Finish the quote: "If you can read this in English, thank a soldier."

Michael said...

Garage. Out of curiosity, how many countries have you visited? You are quick with the lefty statistic but i wonder if you have experienced life anywhere other than white bread Wisconsin. I could be wrong but i would doubt you are much traveled.

Quasimodo said...

Teacher's unions have NOTHING to do with the crappy education. It is the crappy homes the children come from. Put a couple kids from crappy homes in a class room and education for all the others in the room hits the dumper.

Scott M said...

I'm guessing Obama didn't grasp the concept.

There's an app for that...

prairie wind said...

I'm guessing Obama didn't grasp the concept.

What Obama understands about China is that if things worked in the US the way they work there, he wouldn't have to convince anyone of anything to get stuff done.

Fowl Ideas said...

It's easy to take potshots at teachers. Too bad so few people are brave enough to broach the subject of incompetent parents.

Teaching requires a college degree while any bigot, batterer, or bully can reproduce as often as he or she desires.

http://chickensoupfortheterroristsoul.blogspot.com/2010/11/chicken-soup-with-nfl-hero-ryan-tucker.html

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Larry J said...

There's no reason for it and it leaves our children needlessly sleep-deprived.

I remember believing all the talk about how teens need to sleep late in the morning because their sleep patterns have changed. They said school needed to start later to accommodate these changes.

Then I joined the Army. Very quickly, I learned that it wasn't at all hard to get up at 4:30 in the morning (or whatever other ungodly hour they choose). Funny how a Drill Sergeant can motivate 18 year olds in ways parents can't. It isn't a matter of biology that makes teens want to sleep late but a lack of sufficient motivation.

MayBee said...

While I agree that many of our education problems are socio-economic problems, are the people who are saying it isn't the teachers' fault saying those kids are unteachable?

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Jaytard said...
Hilarious

You've been trained well dipshit, I'll give you that. Do you still require a treat, or does a simple pat on the head now suffice for you to act on command?

Good boy Jay. Gooooood boy!

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Fowl Ideas

Its easy to take potshots at parents and NFL players apparently but the thread is about what Steve Jobs said about teachers unions.

You see, thats the thing about unions in general. They are blocs designed to protect workers not necessarily from the employers of this world, but really, from themselves. Never will we see individual accountability in unions. They have evolved into protection rackets for 'workers' and money laundering conduits for politicians. Hence, their most-favored 'scared cow' status.

Speaking of cows, on behalf of Jay, this one is for you, Garbage;

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

wv - parside

SGT Ted said...

Teaching requires a college degree while any bigot, batterer, or bully can reproduce as often as he or she desires.

Actually, a college degree to teach is probably unnecessary up through 6th grade.

Teaching credentials, on top of that, are worthless gatekeeping barriers now used to indoctrinate educrats in Marxoid social justice propagandizing.

SGT Ted said...

There's no reason for it and it leaves our children needlessly sleep-deprived.

Any farm boy could tell you the notion that kids NEEED to sleep until after daddy has left for work is, and always will be, complete bullshit.

garage mahal said...

Michael
I traveled thru parts of Europe when I was younger, and Australia for an extended stay. Not sure what your driving at, you should be asking your cohorts that question.

By the way I've lived in FL, AZ, WA, CO, back to FL, then back to Wisconsin.

Scott M said...

It isn't a matter of biology that makes teens want to sleep late but a lack of sufficient motivation.

Not staying up until midnight watching TV or playing Xbox can work wonders. Whenever I hear parents say something like "she only watches three hours of tv a day" I cringe.

Three hours? Ridiculous. I tell my seven-year-old that she's watched too much TV (after an hour thereabouts, longer on saturday mornings). She gripes for a couple minutes...then goes of and makes an entire suit of armor out of 8x11 printer paper.

Curious George said...

"MadisonMan said...
Year-round school is not something I encourage either. What's wrong with a summer off to do nothing but wile away the time?"

Exactly. Especially if taxpayers will pay you for a full year of work. That's why most teachers get into teaching.

RonF said...

Too bad he didn't say it publicly while he was alive. Of course, that might have hurt marketing Apple products to the educational market.

RonF said...

roesch/voltaire
"Actually there is all kinds of educational reform taking place, yes even in public education. The Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy, ..."

I'm familiar with IMSA. It's an incredibly selective school where both the students and their families are highly motivated. The teachers' unions fight schools that take highly motivated students out of *their* schools.

@ Carol: "If you can read this thank a teacher" BS. My mother taught me to read when I was 3 and by the time I got to school I was 6 grade levels ahead of the other kids in reading and stayed that way through HS. I had some wonderful teachers but they didn't have a damn thing to do with my ability to read.

roesch/voltaire said...

All the schools I listed have unionized teachers and pay better than average salaries( one reason they can attract the best and hold them, but of course most folks would not support their level of pay which matches those of a college professor in some cases). Even the well established schools have not stayed stagnate in their approach to teaching and thus serve as models for other schools. Yes they have requirements for entrance and seek students who want to learn, similar to what charter schools try to do in imitation; getting student and parent support for high standards in education is needed at all levels. And please note that the AFT Innovation Fund has supported local efforts to improve education including the development of union partnered charter schools, and differentiated pay. My point is the simple minded claims made about educational reform being blocked by teachers' unions serves as a straw man for a rather complex issue.

David said...

Speaking truth to power, and being ignored.

bagoh20 said...

Teaching requires a college degree while any bigot, batterer, or bully can reproduce as often as he or she desires.

I think teachers are more "educated" than ever, and their parents much less bigoted, battering and bullying than ever, but still kids are getting less educated here. If these factors are the cause, then we need to reverse them: dumber teachers and worse parents are what we need.

The problem is simply that kids don't think they have to learn. They know that now days they will not get beat, or starve, or suffer much if they don't learn. Hell, they won't even fail the grading system. In other words there is no failure - only success, so why try.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Issues with the education our children receive:

1) Parents
2) Political correctness of the school systems (affecting such things as discipline, social promotions, curricula)
3) Bureaucracy of the school systems
4) Teachers

The great majority of the teachers are good at what they do. However, bad teachers have a disproportionately large effect on the student population. Example: a K-5 elementary school, with 4 classrooms per grade. 1 bad teacher is 5% of the teaching population, but will impact 25% of the student population.

Michael said...

Garage: Most domestic critics of the U.S. have not traveled outside it. If you have extensive experience in other countries you tend to give the U.S. a bit of a break on a lot of these studies showing that we rank 21st in Child Care or whatever it was you said earlier. Anecdotal observation of children in other countries' ghettos and poorer areas would suggest that we are doing pretty well in virtually every area of social and economic activity including child care.

prairie wind said...

I would like to know how many great innovations in computer function come from people who use Apple computers exclusively. I'm not talking about design. My bet is that working with PCs exposes users more to the actual workings of a computer, leading to more knowledge and curiosity about how computers work.

That question sounds tangential but not really, since we are talking about Jobs and education. Elementary schools tend to use Macs; later, when computers become important and not just an expensive Leapfrog with educational games, the school districts choose to save money and go with PCs.

Psychedelic George said...

Ask an elementary school teacher about the government-mandated paperwork she has to do, forms that local school districts require be filled out to meet mandates from DC....

Even many teachers would like to get Washington take its hands off.

The public unions will be broken because there's just no money any more to support their racket.

Peano said...

What's wrong with a summer off to do nothing but wile away the time?

If they stayed in school, they might learn the difference between 'wile' and 'while.'

Michael said...

bagoh20; Parents who care about their children's education should try to scrape up enough to send them to private schools. The children whose parents have to pay are reminded of that fact and tend to do a lot better than they might in a public school.

MayBee said...

Actually, a college degree to teach is probably unnecessary up through 6th grade.

Teaching credentials, on top of that, are worthless gatekeeping barriers...


I completely agree with this, Sgt Ted.

Is there anybody who can make the case that either teacher's unions or the Fed Dept of Ed have improved education in this country?

garage mahal said...

Michael
Not sure why we have to give the U.S. "a break" on child welfare and well being versus other industrialized countries. But it's much easier to blame the UNIONS for our inadequacies I guess. Let's face it, we don't give a fuck about child poverty in this country. Own it up to it at least.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...
You've been trained well dipshit, I'll give you that. Do you still require a treat, or does a simple pat on the head now suffice for you to act on command?


What is great about this bit of projection is that you're apparently entirely unaware you have rushed to the Internet to post a "fact" you do not understand and have not at all examined critically.

Why, it is almost as if you're an imbecile or something.

Michael said...

Prairie Wind: No doubt! I have learned a great deal by having to debug my PC. I know how to start it in Safe Mode (is there such a thing w/ an Apple?), know how to re-set to an earlier date, know how to spot bullshit "warnings" from malware providers. I have also learned patience since it takes about 20 minutes for the thing to fire up properly after having to acknowledge 6 or 7 urgent warnings and update messages. Jeeze. My next toy is going to be a cloudbook.

Jay said...

bagoh20 said...
Teaching requires a college degree while any bigot, batterer, or bully can reproduce as often as he or she desires.


Really?

It requires a college degree why ___ exactly?

Jay said...

"MadisonMan said...
Year-round school is not something I encourage either. What's wrong with a summer off to do nothing but wile away the time?"


Hells bells, we wouldn't want to improve student performance while interrupting your vacation time or anything!

You leech.

garage mahal said...

What is great about this bit of projection is that you're apparently entirely unaware you have rushed to the Internet to post a "fact" you do not understand and have not at all examined critically.

Look away Jay! Pretend it doesn't exist. It's THE UNIONS FAULT!!!

Jay said...

pretend it doesn't exist

You don't even know what the "it" is or means, clown.

This is just too funny.

Michael said...

Garage: Your statement about child poverty in the U.S. cannot be supported. We have an extraordinary menu of options for the poor to feed and house and educate their children for free. In addition there are thousands of charities that administer to the needs of the poor and countless churches and volunteer groups that get involved. Far more I would argue than in any other industrialized country. You would like to think that conservatives are heartless and uncaring but they contribute outsized amounts of their income to charity, both the 1% and the 99%, compared with liberals.

the unions have nothing at all to do with child poverty and I can't imagine where you got the idea that anyone would argue that as the case.

There are any number of organizations in your own community that address any concern you can name having to do with children. Why not become a big brother to a kid in a bad home? Why not teach reading to adults who are illiterate. You have abundant energy and good will and you could make a difference personally.

prairie wind said...

Teaching credentials, on top of that, are worthless gatekeeping barriers

Yes. An excellent teacher, ready for a change from the SPED classroom, was turned down for a regulare classroom because she is certified for SPED. Schools get extra money for SPED students. Funny how many SPED kids there are out there...

J said...

Said Guru Jobs, the greatest design consultant ever, who had finished like one or two semesters of community college--BASIC and calligraphy, allegedly. Like most corporate lackeys Jobs didn't know jack about education--most likely in..the Malebolge in the realm of Fraudulent.

Real reform starts when the administrators and "trustees" are axed --not the educators themselves.

Brennan said...

Teaching credentials, on top of that, are worthless gatekeeping barriers now used to indoctrinate educrats in Marxoid social justice propagandizing.

It's another ponzi scheme. To get more money you need another degree. To get another degree you need money. To get money you walk the beat for your elected official that will deliver the pork so you don't have to pay for it with your own money. The degree will be acquired by learning from teachers that did exactly the same thing, only they did it before you.

You can explain most of the irrational passions of teachers if you can actually get them to critically think about the ponzi scheme they don't know they're part of.

J said...

From what I've heard from many teacher friends, principals are often the problem in a school, not the solution.

There you go, Paddy. About once a day you say something nearly intelligent.

MayBee said...

Call me crazy, but as a parent I love having summer with my kids. Who is it exactly that wants their kids stuffed in school so many hours and weeks?

Michael said...

J: Jobs went to Reed College, I believe. It is a lefty university in the Pacific NW, not a community college.

garage mahal said...

Garage: Your statement about child poverty in the U.S. cannot be supported.

We can't measure child poverty? Seriously?

Whether you like it or not, there is a connection with countries like Finland who are at the top of child test scores in the world, even though they have the fewest number of class hours in the developed world, and Finland being ranked near the top in child well being. 95% of Finland's teachers are also unionized.

You can argue it's all a coincidence I suppose, but I think deep down you know there is a correlation. But hey we're Americans! Close your eyes and pretend we're number 1 at everything, even when we aren't.

Michael said...

The Union issue is a problem because it operates as a guild as much as a union. Let us suppose that the smartest amongst us, J, decided he wanted to teach. He could not despite his evident erudition teach anything without having to trudge through a list of "education" courses which would "certify" him to teach. Even if he had enjoyed a lengthy and successful career in accounting or engineering he would not be permitted to teach math. This is as much a problem as the pay and the work rules etc. I would prefer to see our classroom teachers make six figures based on their teaching skills than on their tenure and on their knowledge and love of their subjects more than on their credentials.

Michael said...

Garage: It is helpful if you read more than the first sentence of someone's post. I did not say that it was not possible to measure poverty I was referring to YOUR statement which was that no one cared about child poverty. I know you are not stupid, why act like you are?

Michael said...

Garage: Finland is ethnically homogenous and stoutly Lutheran. It has 5.4 million people of which 4.9 are Finnish with the balance mainly Swedes. You are essentially comparing Finland to a large rich and ethnically homogenous school district in the U.S. It is a poor example of why unions are wonderful or why Finns have a good education or any other thing you might think of.

garage mahal said...

Michael
Fair enough. I didn't single out conservatives though.

Finland does things we don't, like recruiting from the top 10% of high school graduates. All Finnish teachers must hold a Masters in the subject they want to teach. Here in the U.S. we are going in the exact opposite direction. Who in their right mind would argue charter schools run by CEO's with no teacher accreditation is the best way to run a school? Besides Jay that is.

Scott M said...

"Stoutly Lutheran"

...which is great, and all, but from what I've read, northern Europe isn't unlike the rest of the continent in it's dropping church attendance/membership. If you're suggesting this characteristic not as current religious aspect but as the source of a Protestant work ethic, then I'd agree.

Scott M said...

Who in their right mind would argue charter schools run by CEO's with no teacher accreditation is the best way to run a school?

The mayor of that chocolate city?

J said...

Hey Mikey Dumbass--start lying--Sort of in yr yid blood. You don't know fuck about pedagogy do you,scab. Lets compare notes on the integral, little man.

Jay said...

Like most corporate lackeys Jobs didn't know jack about education

As opposed to you, silly, ignorant, Internet commentor.

J said...

And in fact Mikey--you're wrong as usual. The NCLB act, courtesy of yr hero BushCo does allow that. A successful white collar criminal with some accounting skills would probably be allowed to teach hs algebra (its called te CSET), especially if he hangs at the golf course. Like the rest of the anti-unionist teabugs here,you just don't know fuck about it.

J said...

No, you're silly, anti- christ WASP-zionist TP- swine.

Scott M said...

Hey Mikey Dumbass--start lying--Sort of in yr yid blood.

You just can't go two days in a row without slandering jews, can you, Jolly?

Speaking of blood, since you appear to be the expert on Jewish blood, you have never backed up your premise with anything resembling a fact. You said:

the majority of bankers/financiers are jews--say 75%--in urban areas the # may be higher

That's an awful lot of people. How much "yid" blood does a person working in banking or the financial industry need to have in order to be included in that 75%? Please answer clearly.

J said...

No, you're silly, anti-unionist WASP-zionist TP- swine.

purplepenquin said...

And by "based on merit" he means "based on the size of their tits" and "will they sleep with the principal or not".

One of the main reasons teachers organized in the first place was due to rampant sexual advances in the workplace. No surprise that the Old Boys Club wants to return to those days...

J said...

Scotttard--fuck yrself, white trash.



Don't bother with the pedagogy, A-tards. Stick to chlitons manuals, meth lab, t-shirts sales, quicken, etc.

Scott M said...

Answer the question, bigot.

You can't can you? You make a lot of claims on this blog and most of them are grade-f bullshit. I'm asking you to back up just one. It's a very simple question. Please answer clearly.

Michael said...

Pedagogy is J's word of the day.

PurplePenguin: I know you are in competition with J, but you are boxing way above your weight with him and with the rest of the commenters on this blog.

Your point is that conservatives would like to undo education unions so they can get pussy? You are a very silly boy.

J said...

Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit

what that little palo alto joto should have said was ..allowing teachers to hire and fire principals, administrators, and executives

Calypso Facto said...

America ranks at the bottom of the 21 industrialized countries in children's welfare...

Ok, I'll bite. You probably mean the 2007 UNICEF child welfare report where the US ranked 20th and some of the criteria were if the country provides socialized medicine and socialized childcare (interestingly, without any regard to actual health or educational outcomes achieved therefrom)? Any ranking based on those stacked questions will automatically bias against the US.

And one of the US' worst categories was the percentage of children living in single-parent households. What policies and attitudes in the US contribute to that? Who knew GM would join Dan Quayle and Rick Santorum moralizing on the same side of the single-parent issue? Good for you, Garage!

Michael said...

Garage: "All Finnish teachers must hold a Masters in the subject they want to teach. Here in the U.S. we are going in the exact opposite direction. Who in their right mind would argue charter schools run by CEO's with no teacher accreditation is the best way to run a school?"

Your first example is one I would support here. Teach science then have a Masters in science. Not education, not science education. Science.

I would rather have a CEO with an Masters in finance or science than a CEO with a teacher's certificate.

garage mahal said...

Who knew GM would join Dan Quayle and Rick Santorum moralizing on the same side of the single-parent issue? Good for you, Garage!

Hah! I'm actually quite conservative on some issues. And yes you are correct: I was referring to the Unicef report.

J said...

No Mikey--. just one of many terms youdon't understand. Your attempt at wit as pathetic as your brainfart about the NCLB. did you note your error? BushCo did make it possible for business swine to teach when they pass a little test.

Thorley Winston said...

"allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit"

Allowing principals to be despots over a small territory.


At will employment = despotism

Who knew?

Scott M said...

did you note your error?

Is there an error in this statement, Jolly? You said,

the majority of bankers/financiers are jews--say 75%--in urban areas the # may be higher

Your premise is that 75% of the bankers/financiers in this country are Jews and that percentage may be higher in urban areas. Since you have put forth said premise, I'm sure you will be able to explain to us how much "yid blood", as you put it, are required for a banker to remain in the minority 25%.

Please answer clearly.

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garage mahal said...

So I visit this old thread and who do I find? Sorepaw, posting endlessly.....to nobody.

Like a bot.

Peter said...

""allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit"

Allowing principals to be despots over a small territory.

From what I've heard from many teacher friends, principals are often the problem in a school, not the solution."

The key is, the principals are held accountable for results. If you're going to hold them responsible for results then they need the authority to hire and fire.

BUT, it's not a sinecure. If they spend their capital on petty despotism hten they'll not only lose some good teachers but they'll be unable to produce results, and will be out of a job.

sorepaw said...
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