October 27, 2011

"If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl..."

"... Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout."

But what if a child is presented as a boy who has a strong identification with things that are traditionally female? Here's Bobby Montoya, whose mother tried to get him into the Girl Scouts, but didn't claim he was female:



My problem with this is that the argument that he belongs in the Girl Scouts is premised on stereotyping girls. I think the better argument for kids like Bobby is: Let children choose their own toys, hairstyles, clothes and don't make a big deal about whether he or she has chosen things that are more often chosen by members of the opposite sex. Emphasize individual freedom!

Bobby's family put him in a situation where he was excluded because — as the troop leader allegedly put it — he has "boy parts." He has a real physical difference from the girls, and he was classified based on that, not his personal preferences and interests. Now, he's focused on genitalia-based limitations, as if his natural body parts are his problem!

AND: When is it appropriate to make your child a gender celebrity?

116 comments:

Curious George said...

"Never"

pduggie said...

Bobby has no father, does he.

Hmmm....

Palladian said...

Boy does this comment thread have "potential train wreck" written all over it...

pduggie said...

BTW: aren't they "supposed" to call him a transgender girl.

But he's not...

Tank said...

Never.

Child abuse.

Call DYFS.

pduggie said...

Ann: The girl scouts is premised on stereotyping girls to an extent.

You can tell a daughter "Hey, you'll like this group: they do a lot of stuff that's popular with girls."

Winding down said...

Get started on the transformaion...therapy, drugs and ...no nice way to express..Cut off his unit...then go shopping for the GS accoutrement...

Clyde said...

It's very simple: If you can pee standing up, you don't belong in the Girl Scouts. Period.

Back in the day, a little constructive bullying eliminated the possibility of foolishness like this.

Ann Althouse said...

"Ann: The girl scouts is premised on stereotyping girls to an extent."

I thought Girl Scouts was about empowering girls and broadening their capacities. It's certainly not about playing with dolls and being all girly!

Ann Althouse said...

I think it's terrible to make this child unhappy with his body parts. That's an adult fixation that is completely wrong to make him obsess about. He likes playing with dolls. Don't make a problem out of that!

Ann Althouse said...

Don't appropriate him into a political struggle that's in vogue among adults.

Ann Althouse said...

If somebody wants to make an organization for children who love girly toys and other stereotypical girly things, they could do that, but such an agenda shouldn't be foisted on the Girl Scouts.

Christopher said...

I am increasingly tired of our society's habit of humoring fools and their idiotic fantasies.

The child can be excused as kids believe everything their parents tell them. The adults, not so much.

Patrick said...

It is never a good idea for parents to make their child a celebrity - gender or otherwise.

If a boy likes typically girly stuff, chances are still high that he can do those things in cub scouts/boy scouts. If a girl likes typically boy stuff, chances are high that she can do those things in girls scouts.

Is the boy interested in doing girly things, or is he interested in doing girly things with girls? If the scout group doesn't have activities in which in has no interest, he should find another club. Not the girls scouts.The girls scouts ought to be reserved for girls.

Ann Althouse said...

From the Girl Scouts website, describing the origin of Girl Scouts:

"In developing the Girl Scout movement in the United States, Juliette [Gordon Low] brought girls of all backgrounds into the out-of-doors, giving them the opportunity to develop self-reliance and resourcefulness. She encouraged girls to prepare not only for traditional homemaking, but also for possible future roles as professional women—in the arts, sciences and business—and for active citizenship outside the home."

Poke around on their website. You'll see it's about preparing girls for strong leadership roles in society ... outside of traditional female roles.

pduggie said...

Ann: I'm trying to distinguish between the hyper-femininity of dolls and frou-frou and the kind of activities and gestalt you get in the girl scouts vs boy scouts.

Maybe its just the uniforms, or maybe the boy scouts are more hyper-gendered in their activities (i.e., everyone goes camping, but do the girl scouts teach knife safety with the 'circle of blood' metaphor?)

Shanna said...

Did you see the most recent parks and rec? The boys all joined the girls group because they had candy and wanted to play with puppies. It was cute.

And then a mixed boy/girl group of bad ass Swansons was formed!

MayBee said...

I think there are some parents (mostly moms) with a gender version of Munchhausen by Proxy syndrome.
I'd say this is one of them.

Shanna said...

He likes playing with dolls. Don't make a problem out of that!

Also, Kids who have siblings of the opposite sex are constantly playing with each others toys. You shouldn’t make your kid feel like that’s not normal just because you want to make some kind of point.

MayBee said...

One practical problem is the camps and outings are led by volunteers (usually moms) and the scouts usually all sleep together and change clothes together.

rhhardin said...

It's even worse in countries that inflect for gender.

It's more than just pronouns then.

Rhodamine said...

I have a daughter in GS and a son in BS.

GS sucks. It's very boring. I have no idea why anyone would actually fight to join. They do crafts. The boys shoot guns.

My daughter would fight to join the Boy Scouts in a heartbeat! I say if this kid actually wants to be a Girl Scouts, eh, whatever.

edutcher said...

My sister was in the Girl Scouts eons ago and I don't remember them as being all that sissy.

In any case, this kid is being exploited by a lot of people who really don't give a damn about him.

PS Gender celebrity?

gregq said...

"When is it appropriate to make your child a gender celebrity?"

Never.

gregq said...

"I thought Girl Scouts was about empowering girls and broadening their capacities."

It was, then it got taken over by the Left. The Boy Scouts have so far managed to avoid that devastating event, which is why:

1: They're a far more valuable group to belong to

2: They are routinely trashed by "liberals"

prairie wind said...

The world is just crazy. Seriously.

Original Mike said...

"Now, he's focused on genitalia-based limitations, as if his natural body parts are his problem!"

They are his problem.

Original Mike said...

"I think it's terrible to make this child unhappy with his body parts. That's an adult fixation that is completely wrong to make him obsess about. He likes playing with dolls. Don't make a problem out of that!"

I agreed. But he doesn't get to join the Girl Scouts.

Original Mike said...

Ahh, make that "agree".

rhhardin said...

premised on stereotyping girls

A lot of truth is premised on stereotyping girls.

Girls want to be home putting their dolls to bed. Usually at least one of the dolls is ill and needs constant attention.

Quaestor said...

Perhaps Bobby Montoya's mother -- having concentrated on "active citizenship outside the home", and having neglected to a proportionate degree her biologically mandated role -- has created this situation through sheer wantonness.

Confusion about biology can be a serious problem, especially in boys. (Smart people label this "gender identity disorder", but not being smart I point out that parts of speech and mechanical components have gender, not people.) Most children so afflicted grow out of the behaviors, particularly when integration with peer groups outside the home becomes important. How parents and siblings respond to a confused child can be a delicate issue, but they do the child no favors by encouraging deviant behavior.

So what if a boy wants to dress as a girl, play with girl-oriented toys, join female peer groups, you say. Isn't it his right to choose how he wants to live?

I say there are limits to free will. It may be unpleasant, but we are prisoners of our genetic inheritance. Humans are not the crown of creation. We are apes. We are chattels of evolution. Also, is it not cruel to force children to make decisions with lifelong consequences when such decisions are better deferred until the child has attained his majority?

Darleen said...

rhodamine

Everything depends on the troop. I was an enthusiastic GS when I was young - hiking, camping, earning merit badges (from knots to horse riding). Yes, we did some crafts, usually around the holidays since we were also service oriented. We made gifts for nursing home patients then would go and carol there.

I thoroughly enjoyed my scouting years ... but it does depend on the troop and leadership.

RonF said...

The Boy Scouts of America belongs to a world-wide organization called the WOSM (World Organization of Scouting Movements). The organizations in that have both boys and girls in it (the BSA admits boys from ages 8 through 20 and girls from ages 14 through 20 in their various programs).

The Girl Scouts of the United States of America (GSUSA, and don't you dare call them the GSA) belong to an alternative organization, the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts (WAGGGS). WAGGGS' own bylaws specifically require its member organizations to exclude boys. They explicitly wish to remain female-only. In their view this is the best way to ensure that young women get the chance to develop and learn leadership, etc. If a WAGGGS organization starts admitting young men they can get thrown out.

edutcher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sixty Grit said...

That's feminism for you - even boys are girls now.

WV: saphable - a joke on Lesbos.

edutcher said...

Darleen said...

Everything depends on the troop. I was an enthusiastic GS when I was young - hiking, camping, earning merit badges (from knots to horse riding). Yes, we did some crafts, usually around the holidays since we were also service oriented. We made gifts for nursing home patients then would go and carol there.

Sounds like the stuff my sister did.

Her troop, or whatever, was sponsored by our parish.

Cheryl said...

Darleen--I think your experience is not recent. GS does suck, based on what I've seen here. Even my friend who led her daughter's group all the way through Gold agreed with me. I think the national is just too PC and frankly boring.

Boy Scouts, on the other hand, rock. Both my boys are very involved in their troop, and it is fun. All kinds of things--shooting, knives, outdoors, airborne training down at Ft. Benning...fun. Both of my girls are so jealous and are looking forward to being old enough for Venture Scouts, the co-ed version of Boy Scouts for high schoolers.

Darleen said...

And I'll agree with MayBee here; how much of Bobby's "transgender" real and how much is it to garner the continuing approval of his mom? Why is his hair cut like a girl? I know of many young boys with long hair where it is just long hair and isn't specifically styled into feminine proportions.

Most children go through stages of identifying with either parent. Allegedly this kid started identifying with "girl stuff" at two -- which is NOT unusual because most 2 - 4 year olds are following their moms around the house wanting to do whatever she's doing. One of the fave toys of my twin grandsons of that age was a play kitchen set - bright in primary colors - so they could "cook". They're nine now and their room is filled with dinosaurs and Transformers (and they are now learning to cook in the real kitchen). Little girls, usually tweens, go through a tomboy stage.

What happened to common sense parenting that accepted these phases AS stages and also guided the kid through to healthy adulthood??

Deirdre Mundy said...

I feel for him, I really do. After all, when I was little, I wanted to be a cub scout! They got to go hiking and camping and make fires and shoot bows and arrows and build race cars and boats.

We got to make Christmas ornaments and sell cookies.

On the other hand, my sympathy for him isn't endless, because he is BEGGING to be lame and sell cookies instead of to learn useful skills. I wish the GSA was more like the BSA-- more outdoorsy and wholesome, less into sex and politics.

Pastafarian said...

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Does anyone here actually believe that this 7-year-old boy has decided, on his own, that he prefers to have a girl's haircut, and play with dolls?

7 year olds aren't gay or transgender. They're not sexual at all.

He's been coached into this by a sick, twisted bint of a mother. He's been a victim of abuse.

And now, as a result, every one of the next year's worth of den meetings for this girl scout troop will be all about acceptance of these differences -- nay, celebration of them. And of course they'll have to explain to these 7-year-old girls what transgender means, if they're to accept it. Because that's what scouting is all about; and that's what we need to teach our 7-year-old daughters.

I am sick to death of this shit.

Darleen said...

Cheryl

Um, I have grandchildren so that might give you an idea when I was a Scout.

Funny how "oppressed" women were 40-50 years ago, but Girl Scouts was there allow females to be as rough and tough outdoorsy as the males.

RonF said...

Rhodamine, as Darleen notes a Girl Scout Troop's program is dependent on the leaders. My daughter quit Girl Scouts, too. Try finding 2 or 3 women in your average city or urban suburb who are knowledgable, comfortable and willing to take a bunch of kids camping. Try to find a Girl Scout service unit that's comfortable with letting a guy register with a Troop to do so. So the kids do crafts and such and then they all quit.

Rhodamine, when your daughter graduates from 8th grade or turns 14 (whichever is first) call up your local Boy Scout Council and ask them if they've got any active Venture Crews in your area. She can join one of them and go camping, shoot, go rock climbing, do a canoe trip into Canada, etc., etc.

Stephen K. said...

"He likes playing with dolls. Don't make a problem out of that!"

Assuming he lives in the Real World, other kids and parents will make it hard for him to play with dolls. It will only get worse as he ages.

Also, I thought transgenderism was about autogynephilia. If he grows up to be a transgender, hating his genitals are the least of his worries.

ricpic said...

...genitalia based limitations...

Yes, reality just refuses to get with the agenda!

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Althouse, what did you expect from your homophobic conservative readers, that they would embrace this child and let him live a happy childhood, no I think they would rather the other kids engage in " constructive bullying". Nice kind caring human beings you have as commenters here Ann.

Pastafarian said...

Homophobes? Mitochondri, do you suppose that this 7-year-old is gay?

Sexual preference could be just as biologically determined as adult height (and probably is), but at 7, we can't know much about either. My disgust doesn't stem from "homophobia", but from what this child has been put through by a crazy indoctrinating bitch of a mother, and how he'll have to deal with the repercussions of it for the rest of his life, now that he's been "outed" to the entire world at age 7.

Darleen said...

Hi Mito - so as long as an abused child is "happy" that's oky doky for you?

Nice.

Bob said...

Spot on, Mitochondri-Allie. What a bunch of judgemental bastards.

But seriously: take this to another level. What if Bobby turns out to be a fast runner. Should he be able to compete against women in the Olympics?
Or what if Bobby decides to have a child. Does he have the right to conceive?

Stephen K. said...

"Emphasize individual freedom!"

I would rather emphasize reality. I think it's healthier for society, and telling people about hard biological differences leaves less confusion and heartache than what you seem to want us to believe.

"Poke around on their website. You'll see it's about preparing girls for strong leadership roles in society ... outside of traditional female roles."

Well then the girls scouts is an idiot.

Christopher said...

MA,

The "homophobic conservative" readers here don't believe that you should indulge the whims of a child, especially in matters that can have major ramifications throughout their life (assuming that this isn't just the result of the mother's own agenda).

Darleen said...

also, Mito, sexual orientation and sexual identification are two separate issues.

The gay men I know have no problem with their masculinity and definitely identify as male.

Before indulging in a little stereotypical slander, you might like to at least get the topic under discussion correct.

traditionalguy said...

The Right to magic think ourselves into another form is a bad joke.

How about the right to magic think myself into a swan or a lion?

Demanding that the world react to you as you magic think yourself to be is not going to happen, and if it does the world is going along with your insanity as the path of least resistance.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Are you folks seriously this ignorant, there are many children of both sexes who can say they knew from a VERY early age that they identified with the opposite sex. This is biological, duh. Haven't any of you read about a fetus's brain at a certain stage of development, and the introduction of either male or female hormones and what it does to that fetus brain?

Shouting Thomas said...

Jesus Christ, I'm glad this isn't my problem.

My girl just got married to a good old boy who repairs diesel locomotives.

I think I'm gonna get a bunch of grandkids.

People who want to make their lives into an intellectual experiment are welcome to that crap.

Thank God, I don't know them.

Stephen K. said...

Those hateful conservatives, living in the real world where a child has to live with the consequences of his actions and those of his parents!

Embrace the fantasy and it all goes away, you jerks.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

AA said: My problem with this is that the argument that he belongs in the Girl Scouts is premised on stereotyping girls.

Thank you for pointing that out. I've never understood how claiming to identify as a different gender could be based on anything but stereotypes of what one gender or the other could or should be.

How about XX & vagina equals girl, XY & penis equals boy, and what you do with your life (work, play, sex, etc.) is up to you.

- Lyssa

Shouting Thomas said...

I vote for Mitochondri as the dumbest "intellectual" leftist to land on this site for some time.

Quaestor said...

Stephen K. wrote:
... I thought transgenderism was about autogynephilia.

Up to now autogynephilia was one of those terms that I scan, wonder about only slightly, and then toss into the useless information bin. This thread has forced me to research the issue a bit more.

On the way to reading a few clinical abstracts I found this page. It appears the "transgendered" resent the implication they're messed up.

Another site takes an even more bitchily scornful tone regarding autogynephilia. The author pleads the case that autogynephilia is a fraud, and that psychologists who accept the diagnosis are liars and mountebanks. Ironic considering the site devotes a lot of space to coaching men on how to be counterfeit women.

Darleen said...

Are you folks seriously this ignorant, there are many children of both sexes who can say they knew from a VERY early age that they identified with the opposite sex

Self-reported events from the POV of an adult about their own very early childhood is not reliable data.

You are seriously ignorant if you think it is.

Pastafarian said...

Shouting Thomas, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.

I'd say Mitochondri is a big step up from Crooked Hat Guy (I can't even remember his actual screenname), and about 4 steps up from J.

We need more people like Mitochondri, if we're going to have a discussion of issues. Garage has done yeoman's work, but he can't carry the entire left on his back forever.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Shanna said: Kids who have siblings of the opposite sex are constantly playing with each others toys. You shouldn’t make your kid feel like that’s not normal just because you want to make some kind of point.


Definitely. When I was little, I remember several times that my brother, who's about 1.5 yrs younger than me, would ask me to "dress him up like a girl." So I'd put play clothes on him, maybe paint his fingernails (peel-off polish), and deck him out in costume jewelry, and we'd all laugh about it. Then, later, we'd bash Transformers around or build something with Legos.

Whoopie. Brother grew up to be a perfectly normal, straight (married and a kid, though, of course, it's not like I would care if he wasn't) man. Why on earth would someone make such a big deal out of what kids play with?

- Lyssa

Quaestor said...

Mitochondri-Allie wrote:
This is biological, duh...

Are you arguing ethics or science? In your first comment you tried a typical left-liberal "let him live a happy childhood" flogging as if Bobby Montoya had chosen a lifestyle. Now you claim his confusion is a consequence of abnormal in utero brain development. Perhaps you don't realize these tacks don't quite get you where you want to go, forensically speaking.

To answer your question, I for one have read a bit on this subject, and the state of research on the subject doesn't fully support your position. The brain does a lot of development outside the uterus, and a significant number of test subjects (male rhesus monkeys) subjected to high levels of female prenatal hormones in utero do not develop into sexually maladjusted adults. The science isn't settled, as they say.

PS.
Just a bit of advise regarding style: Don't use the expression "duh", not spoken and never when writing. It leaves the reader with a unflattering impression of the writer.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

MA said: there are many children of both sexes who can say they knew from a VERY early age that they identified with the opposite sex.

Please explain to me how "identifying" with the opposite sex can be based on anything other than stereotypical, highly limiting, notions of what each sex is like and can do. Am I "identifying" with the opposite sex because I entered a profession that once was limited only to men, plan to be the breadwinner for my family, and generally prefer conversations with men over women? How is that different from just having a distinct personality? Because I still have long hair and wear dresses? Talk about arbitrary stereotypes and limitations!

- Lyssa

Quaestor said...

Lyssa wrote:
Why on earth would someone make such a big deal out of what kids play with?

Why on earth, indeed, though it appears that Mother Montoya made a special concern of Bobby Montoya's playthings, hairstyle, mannerisms, wardrobe, etc.

Darleen said...

Lyssa

While many roles can be "stereotypical", males and females are fundamentally different. We are not "asexual" beings. This is why best odds for healthy children is in a functional, married man/woman household. Mothers and fathers are not fungible.

As they grow, children emulate their parents. They "try on" different roles just as they try different toys, until they find what fits them. And it changes - often.

I feel sorry for this little boy, because the normal phase of trying on the girl role at 2 has (IMO) been extended by his mom, who appears quite happy with the celebrity of his being "different."

Self-enforcing loop between the two and may not end happily.

Jane said...

#1: the child should be allowed to chose toys of his preference, wear clothes of his choice, etc. He should not be told that because he likes Barbies he's really a girl inside and will get his boy parts chopped off when he grows up. He's just a boy who plays with Barbies. Fine.

#2: Girl Scouts seems to philosophically be about Girl Power! so it's not a big surprise that they don't want a boy in their midst. For Mom to be upset about her son's exclusion either means that Scouting really dominates after-school activities in her area or that she's being pushy. How about finding other non-sex-segregated activities?

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Darleen, I'm not disagreeing with you that there are some general differences. But I am disagreeing with the notion that we have to be in some box unless we "identify" with the other gender. In other words, if the kid wants to play with dolls and have long hair, that doesn't mean that he's a girl, because he's not. It just means that sometimes boys play with dolls and have long hair. To say that certain activities (other than those determined by biology) are the province of one sex or the other is limiting, sexist, antiquitated, anti-freedom, and entirely consistent with what I expect from "liberals."

Suburbanbanshee said...

So basically, God forbid there be a group that the opposite sex can't join. Even if part of the point is getting the little girls away from the social pressure of always having the little boys observing them.

(And vice versa for Boy Scouts.)

If I had wanted to camp out with boys, I would have joined the Explorers. (Or stayed home and put up a tent with my brothers.)

Also, you are pressuring all the girls to become sexually confused, just like the boy. I guess that's good training to become a child streetwalker for pedophiles, but probably not for success in other areas of life.

acm said...

This is so silly and sad. There's a right way and a wrong way to deal with kids who identify more readily with the opposite gender (and it's entirely common for kids to do that all on their own, without parents pushing them into it, even subtly), and this is just so clearly the wrong way.

My dear departed brother was the big sister I never had---his Barbie collection was always better kept than mine, he looked better in my clothes than I did, the whole nine yards. My parents who were pretty traditional about gender roles---my dad was Army and my mom was a PTA-leading Tupperware-party-hosting cookie-baking SAHM--- went from "That's cute, he plays so well with his little sister" to "that's cute he thinks Barbie is just a pretty girl he'll grow up and marry" to "Oh my gosh we should do something about this" as he started feminizing his name and wanting to use female pronouns and really *be* a girl. They got counseling and ended up coming to reasonable terms . In a nutshell, they allowed him to be as feminine of a boy as he wanted to be, but made sure he understood and liked himself as a boy. No female pronouns, no Girl Scouts, no new name, must follow the rules at school and other places that explicitly made rules for boys and girls. For example, our school had different uniforms for boys and girls, so he had to wear the boy uniform but could play with the girls and do whatever else the girls all did as long as boys weren't explicitly prohibited. Public places explicitly label bathrooms for boys and girls, so he had to use the boys. I heard plenty of times "Thomas, you are a boy. You can be a boy who plays Barbies, who paints his nails on weekends, or whatever, and that's a fine kind of boy to be, but you are still a boy which means you will _______." He turned out relatively okay. Up til he died way too young of cancer, he had a great life, good career, and tons of male and female friends and liked himself just fine as a boy, and later as a man, who liked pretty dresses and not just the girls in them.

Why can't Bobby Montoya have an experience like that? Why can't he be a boy who likes these things instead of a girl with a penis?

andinista said...

My experience: when it comes to Scouting, moms, and their sons, there is definitely a common occurrence of pushy stage-mother that chooses and schedules their son's affairs. The father equivalent occurs less often.

At seven years old, I see no harm in this. The only true requirement for joining is that the Scout try and live his/her life according to the Scout Oath and Law. Gender separation is a presumed prerequisite. Later, in the teen years, this becomes more important.

I have seen two adolescent Boy Scouts that were of unclear gender: they looked like girls, dressed like boys, participated like slender boys. As long as the Scoutmasters and parents are satisfied that all is jake, and a safe environment is maintained for all Scouts, no harm, no foul.

Scouting is supposed to be pretty accepting. All boys and girls are eligible, they only have to take the Oath and try to live up to it.

It's only the parents that notice the wierd kids. I think the Scouts are more accepting of the wide variation in behaviors. (Perhaps because they don't have enough social conditioning to know that some behaviors are distinctively different.)

edwardroyce said...

How can a kid that young have any sexual identification that wasn't imposed on them?

Train wreck? Yeah written in 20' tall letters.

ricpic said...

Darleen said...

The gay men I know have no problem with their masculinity and definitely identify as male.

Hey lady, what do you know about gay masculinity? You think they're comfortable with their masculinity because they tell you so? You're not once but twice removed from the truth. Heterosexual males are instinctually, that's right, instinctually uneasy around gays. That says more about gays' masculinity than your comfort with gays, because gays aren't interested in you in that way.

The Crack Emcee said...

he was classified based on that, not his personal preferences and interests

Your first problem is starting from the position a kid's personal preferences and interests should be of some overt concern to parents.

You're supposed to be raising him, not the other way around.

SPImmortal said...

Boy does this comment thread have "potential train wreck" written all over it...

--------

In that way the comment thread is much like the boy.

SPImmortal said...

He likes playing with dolls. Don't make a problem out of that!

Also, Kids who have siblings of the opposite sex are constantly playing with each others toys. You shouldn’t make your kid feel like that’s not normal just because you want to make some kind of point.

----------

It's not normal. A girl can be a tomboy and play sports and be rough, but a boy can't be a sissy playing with dolls. Boys need to be tougher.

I played with some girl toys but it was never tea time. It was always Barbie or the stuffed unicorn vs Voltron.

Freeman Hunt said...

I think there are some parents (mostly moms) with a gender version of Munchhausen by Proxy syndrome.
I'd say this is one of them.


THIS.

I'm so sick of reading about weirdo parents who think that because little Johnny loves the feel of swishy skirts and the look of long hair, he's really a girl. Give me a break. These foisted-on narratives have been concocted blind to the fact that many girls hate skirts, long hair, and dolls.

Instead of acting like there's something wrong with his anatomy, why not work to have him accept himself as a boy who likes frilly stuff. There are lots of boys like that. I bet there are quite a few in Boys Scouts.

Shanna said...

These foisted-on narratives have been concocted blind to the fact that many girls hate skirts, long hair, and dolls.

Exactly! Kids play with boy and girl toys throughout childhood, some kids are outdoorsy some kids aren't...expose your kids to a variety of things and let them pick and choose. It's all incredibly normal, until the parents mess it up by freaking out, one way or the other.

SPImmortal said...

THIS.

I'm so sick of reading about weirdo parents who think that because little Johnny loves the feel of swishy skirts and the look of long hair, he's really a girl. Give me a break. These foisted-on narratives have been concocted blind to the fact that many girls hate skirts, long hair, and dolls.

Instead of acting like there's something wrong with his anatomy, why not work to have him accept himself as a boy who likes frilly stuff. There are lots of boys like that. I bet there are quite a few in Boys Scouts.

--------------

It doesn't work that way, gender behaviors are not symettrical opposites where good for one = good for the other.

Being a tomboy is a perfectly normal part of many girl's preadolescent development. Behavioral studies show that once they hit puberty most tomboys become normal heterosexual women.

Boys that show more than a passing interest in dresses and frilly things become fruits or trannies.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

These foisted-on narratives have been concocted blind to the fact that many girls hate skirts, long hair, and dolls.

Definitely. You'd think that liberals would be more accepting of "nuance" as to what it means to be male or female, and more progressive as to gender roles and norms.

I mean, you'd think that if you'd never encountered any actual "liberals".

Methadras said...

When my daughter was around 5 or 6 she wanted to be a boy and she wanted her mother and I to call her Robert. Then she wanted to wear batman and superman boys underwear. This lasted for 3 or 4 months. It wasn't serious, my wife and I didn't have any issues with it. We kept a cautious eye on it and then it faded. It's a phase that children sometimes go through. Parents don't help sometimes. They just fuck things up.

Peter said...

The organization is called GIRL Scouts," not "Feminine Scouts." Girl/Boy is a distinction based on sex, not gender.

Which is why I always cringe when some stupid application asks for my "gender" when I know damn well they that they want to know is my sex.

In a world filled with sexual images as never before, why are people so timid when it comes to identifying obvious physical differences?

jamboree said...

Huh. I know a ten yr old who wears green cowboy boots and is clearly going to be gay, but Bobby truly seems like an actual girl, a heterosexual girl, rather than a gay male.

Quaestor said...

Instead of acting like there's something wrong with his anatomy, why not work to have him accept himself as a boy who likes frilly stuff.

This whole transgender bailiwyck (man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa ) is grounded on a mostly settled philosophical question, specifically that favorite of Philosophy 101 teaching assistants, the Mind-Body Problem, which the Body side has won rather handily, ergo it is impossible to be a woman trapped in a man's body. The genitals are therefore not an issue, behavior is. Is it good or bad, desirable or undesirable? Does society try to fix the problem (assuming there is one) or does society try to accommodate the deviant.

Personally I think society ought to generally leave it alone. We have enough on our collect plate as it is. However, by the same token society ought not make any overt effort to accommodate the so-called transgendered. If a person would rather go to extraordinary and expensive lengths exacerbate the conflict between abnormal psychology and normal biology then that's his choice, but it ought to be an informed choice made by the mature adult person in question, and not by a parent. (This applies only to the "transgender" phenomenon, and not to the rare cases of hermaphroditic or intersex births)

DADvocate said...

If the Girl Scouts were as open-minded and inclusive as the Boy Scouts, they would create programs open to boys and girls as the Boy Scouts have done with their Venturing program. Hell, the YMCA caters more to females than males nowadays.

Of course, when it's males excluding females, i.e. Augusta National Golf Club, it's bad. When it's females excluding males, it's good.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Thanks Pasta, I'm happy to come here to Althouse to tell you folks how full of BS you are, well most of you anyway. I'm glad to be of service. I could be your rent a brain.

TWM said...

His mother is crazy and as a result he will be too. Sad.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Darleen, so do you think that a mothers mistake is raising her son makes him gay as an adult? If so , do you think that therapy can undo the mistakes him mother makes? Or maybe they could pray away the gay?

Mitochondri-Allie said...

His

DADvocate said...

I could be your rent a brain.

Don't quit your day job, if you have one. Most people that rent a brain expect better performance.

Darleen said...

geez ricpic, get a grip

sexual orientation and sexual identification are separate.

"Masculinity" isn't about plaid flannel or beer bongs, just as femininity isn't about sequins and romance novels.

And transexuality is a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage.

Darleen said...

Mito

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Seriously, READ what I wrote, not what you FEEL I wrote.

Orientation and identification are TWO separate issues.

Bigot.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Orientation and Identification are not two separate issues, they overlap and are intertwined. Get a grip woman.

Christopher said...

MA,

A mother's mistake may or may not make the boy in the story gay (depending on where you fall on nature/nurture).

A mother's mistake, however, can leave the boy emotionally scarred for the rest of his life.

At best the mother is setting the kid up for major humiliation at the worst his mother is teaching the boy to hate himself; either way there will be major ramifications down the road.

Darleen said...

Mito-bigot

Start your education by reading "As Nature Made Him: The boy that was raised as a girl" and see what happens when you f*ck with some kid's sexual identity.

Peter said...

"the YMCA caters more to females than males nowadays."

Which perhaps explains why the YMCA is thriving and YWCAs have been withering for decades?

Quaestor said...

Mitochondri-Allie wrote:
Thanks Pasta...

Before luxuriating in self-approbation, do you know what "damning with faint praise means"?

Being favorably compared to Crooked Hat Guy or J is not much of a compliment.

You'll need to gain some decent manners to get much respect here, but do carry on living down to our expectations of "liberals".

write_effort said...

A transgender child just enrolled in my daughter's large, public middle school. We know the family a bit from another setting, so we're aware of her background. I suspect that letting a transgender child dress in the gender she or he prefers is good for long term mental health, but short term as they progress through school, it's likely to be hell. I doubt anyone who isn't the parent in the situation knows how they would handle it. I don't.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Quastor, I should get manners ?! You excuse the behavior and comments of your fellow conservatives after they spew some of the hate filled crap they do? What a hypocrite you are, but that seems to be the norm for the good kind conservatives here. Do you and your buddies here still think that the young Marine deserved to be shot in the face?

Mitochondri-Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sydney said...

Gotta say my experience with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts is the same as most of you have described. My three sons have had a blast in Boy Scouts. They really do teach them leadership and responsibility and they learn useful outdoor skills. My daughter was in Girl Scouts until she was 13. She never had the opportunity - even at the Girl Scout summer camp - to do the same sorts of things her brothers did. She had fun, but it wasn't the same kind of learning experience my sons have had.
The difference I have noticed is that parents are much more involved in the organizational structure of Boy Scouts. My sense of Girl Scouts is that it is run entirely by the professional organization. That's why it often feels like it's only purpose is to sell cookies.
My daughter's a Boy Scout now (Venture Crew). I wish she could have joined before age 14, though.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Darleen would you be so kind to explain to me why you would call me a bigot? Does disagreeing with you make me a bigot? You sound like a nasty little girl calling someone something that just came into her head.

Darleen said...

Mito-bigot,

There is not one statement you have made here in good faith. You came flaming in to "teach" us all how superior your Leftist dogma is. You create your own meanings for the words of those that don't lick your ankles and sneeringly resort to index-card Leftist cliches as "pray the gay away" when this whole thread hasn't had a thing to do with orientation. You don't even consider the apostates to your dogma as humans deserving of debate. That's what makes you a bigot.

You're a simpering, ignorant twit with not one reasonable argument to make.

Darleen said...

and, unlike you, Mito-bigot, I don't hide behind some anonymous name. "Nasty little girl"?

Project much?

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Darleen my new mission is to call you conservatives hypocrites out at every chance I get. So far it's been damn fun.

One last time genius, identification and orientation are always intertwined.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

One last time genius, identification and orientation are always intertwined.

Why? Are you saying that it's not possible to be a gay male without also being a female trapped in a male body? That seems kind of . . . stupid.

Darleen said...

Mito-bigot

:::yawn::: stupid AND boring is no way to go through life

oh, but you're a Leftist. 'nuf said.

jimbino said...

Nobody interested in liberty would join the Boy Scouts, especially if gay or atheist. Kids are born atheist, of course, and by 8 most probably still are.

Darleen said...

Kids are born atheist, of course

Kids are also born not potty trained.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Darleen, I read your old defunct blog, LMAO! Your commenters were 99% against everything you posted. What's wrong sweetie, couldn't get some conservatives to comment on your blog? You're no Althouse, that's for damn sure. Reading your blog gave me a lot of good insight as to what you are and it isn't pretty.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Lyssaredhead, I also read your blog, your commenters were also very interesting, I especially liked the one from the attorney who said her firm would never hire you because of your extremism, gosh those blogs are so revealing.My youngest daughter is also an attorney, thank goodness she is nothing like you, she works in a very political field and knows how to not ruin her chances of success with extremist rhetoric posted on a blog. Not smart Lyssa.

Kirk Parker said...

jimbino,

You're not a breeder so what long-term first-hand experience do you have with 8-year-olds anyway?

lyssalovelyredhead said...

M-A, please tell me (as the woman you referenced could not) (she called me racist, when the most relevant post I could find to race was the one where I commented approvingly on sommeone else's blog post saying that Clarence Thomas should run for president. Huh?) what was extreme about my blog?

Also, as I requested before, please explain why "gender identity" must be intertwined with sexual preference, in other words, why all the delightful gay gentlemen who routinely comment on this blog must actually be gendered as "girls". That sounds incredibly limiting and anti-liberal to me.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

You know what, M-A, you're a real peice of work. You made an assertion that I think is wrong; I asked "why?" But you didn't get around to answering; instead, you decided to dig into my life and drag up something that happened when I was at a really difficult place in my life.

Maybe you've never worked so hard to develop such fantastic qualifications that hiring managers actually call you on the phone to apologize that they can't hire you because there simply are no jobs to be had, and you're suddenly seeing everything that you've ever worked for go out the window. I have, and it fucking sucks. Is throwing that sort of thing in a person's face something that makes you feel good about yourself? Just because she dared ask for support for your assertions?

Well, yeah, you got me. Are you proud of yourself now? Why can't you just participate in the fucking discussion?

Jane said...

Oh, great -- now the Girl Scouts have officially admitted the boy -- but only under the condition that he identify as a girl. If he says he's a boy who likes frilly dresses, tough luck. What a stupid solution on the Girl Scouts' part, to force the boy to declare he's "really" a girl.

It's kind of ironic. The old feminist line that playing with dolls and liking to dress up is culturally conditioned falls away when it's a boy who wants to do those things -- then it's inborn and proof that the child is really a girl.

Darleen said...

oh for heaven's sake, Mito-bigot, if you have took the time to look at my old blog, you'll also note that I have been blogging at proteinwisdom.com

But then, you might not want to go there ... you'd never be able to keep up with the discussions at all.

pj (lowercase) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.