September 13, 2011

There was a huge crowd for tonight's big affirmative action debate here at the University of Wisconsin.

But the 2 speakers  — Roger Clegg and Larry Church — refrained from cranking up the emotions in the big room. There was some clapping and finger-snapping to approve of just about anything pro-affirmative action and some hooting and booing over anything against affirmative action, but the men were in no way drowned out. Clegg and Church got to say what they had to say. During the question period, the various students who got a turn at the mike sounded passionate but not irrational.

I would have liked more discussion of legal doctrine and the precise issues from the case law, but both men chose to concentrate on policy, with the assumption that racial equality and harmony are the desired ultimate goals. What's the best way to get there? It's an old, old question, and the 2 men mainly assembled the usual pro and con arguments, so I doubt if any minds were changed.

As Meade and I walked home, I called the students "admirable" for not getting out of hand and shouting down the speakers, and Meade made fun of my low standard. I said, "It's Wisconsin. Kudos for not rioting."

ADDED: Pictures:





"Socialism 101/What it is and why we need it":

141 comments:

Chase said...

I said, "It's Wisconsin. Kudos for not rioting."

LOL!!!

Seven Machos said...

There is a reason why the word diversity is such a big deal now. It was never heard before the line of Supreme Court cases about education and affirmative action began. Diversity is a backdoor for affirmative action. That's all it is.

I agree that diversity is a laudable goal. But so are a lot of things. Equality before the State is a much more laudable goal.

Further, diversity is nowhere in the Constitution. It's not even in a penumbra or an emanation. Equal treatment before the State is all over the place in that document. It's the sine qua non of the whole regime.

Kirby Olson said...

Everyone should be allowed to speak at a campus without the red guards arriving to shout them down.

gutless said...

Diversity is racist twaddle dressed up in party clothes. If there is a "racial disparity" those not succeeding need to pull up their socks not make a special pleading. We've lived with this for over 40 years, Tough love. No more coddling.

Quayle said...

Generally a beneficiary of a low standard shouldn't make fun of said low standard.

(Just kidding Mr. M. Ann teed it up and I had to hit it.)

Mary said...
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Coketown said...

If law schools want to collectively achieve 22% minority enrollment, fine.

If they want to use affirmative action to do this, great.

If they're comfortable with minorities comprising only 6% of licensed lawyers despite that 22% figure, that's on them.

Just don't tell me the disparity between 22% enrolled and 6% employed is good for minorities. Especially with the cost of an average law degree!

(Cited percentages come from the ABA website)

XWL said...

The best way to get rid of racial bigotry is to screw it out if existence.

Only inter-ethnic or at least inter-cultural relationships will be given breeding licenses by Obama for America racial harmony officers.

m stone said...

What Mary said.

Mary said...
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Mary said...
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Carol_Herman said...

I don't get it.

What got attacked was a press conference at a hotel? But this meeting takes place and it doesn't amount to a hill of beans?

Who is this Linda Chavez ... who "studied all the colleges and universities" in America; but only found the University of Wisconsin "wanting?"

What the students should fear are the exams!

I went to Pasadena City College. NO REQUIREMENTS to get in, other than you bring a #2 pencil.

Yes, classes have "maximums." So, when you're signing up you try to get into classes you need.

Then comes the crowds. For "first day."

Then professors give out tests! (I learned all the test materials are on the footnotes of books you've been assigned to read.) Those tests are deadly. More than half the kids will fail them. And, "drop out."

By the time the professor is through "testing" ... a normal sized class remains.

Some professors even allow you to "take one test score" off your grades.

You know, I found it an interesting way to control the number of kids you have to teach. NO professor kept ALL those who had signed IN! To some of the kids? They were so surprised! They had graduated high school. And, they thought they were IN college.

You don't stay long if you can't pass the tests.

I think Madison was "picked" for this, because no other place in all our states, remains. That would allow this crap to happen. And, make it news.

(Well, it's here.) But I don't think any of this dropped into the "news cycle."

If I was an injured employee at the hotel, though, I'd sew the crap out of the person who hired the venue ... to give a "press conference."

Hope the law suits ahead make it impractical for the hotel to willingly book another "pres conference" for some time to come.

Affirmative Action is dying one way. Or the other.

(The "other" is that even if you stay and pay for a credential ... it won't help you get jobs in the real world.)

And, you don't send in money to the alumni association, either.

Seven Machos said...

Is it Mary Mary?

Jeff with one 'f' said...

@ Seven Machos: "I agree that diversity is a laudable goal."

Why?

SunnyJ said...

Seriously, what are the chances that Mr Clegg was the only one in the room that questioned AA?
Seriously, if the goal is divesity and you had a huge crowd and no one, no one was vocal in support of Mr Clegg...then the red shirts did their job.

There is no diversity of opinion, and that is just as bad if not worse than no diversity of skin color or eye shape.

The fact that a campus as large as UW-Madison has such a dynamic debate question and there is only one side in the audience is a statistical demonstration of the choke hold of the thought police.

Why would they riot? They took their marching orders from the Chief of Diversity and Climate earlier today and delivered their message. Sounds like it might have even changed the nature of the deliver from the two debate speakers.

Speaking of diversity "Chiefs", how come he gets to use that name and my hometown basketball team is being forced to change it...even with local Native American support of keeping the noble name? I'd think a really good diversity guy would be sensitive to that and just give himself a pooba name of some kind that was more welcoming and well,more diverse don't you know.

Alex said...

Dirty Mary is back!

pbAndjFellowRepublican said...

"Kudos for not rioting."

Well, hopefully there were some heart balloons.

edutcher said...

I wouldn't call expecting students "not getting out of hand and shouting down the speakers" a low standard if one remembers the 60s.

Mr Meade may be too young, but I'm not and, well, gentlemen leave a lady's age out of such discussions.

Carol_Herman said...

I don't get it.

Who is this Linda Chavez ... who "studied all the colleges and universities" in America; but only found the University of Wisconsin "wanting?"


I'm willing to be there were other places. The good Professor is mostly concerned with Madison.

Chip S. said...

"It's Wisconsin. Kudos for not rioting."

The perfect conclusion to a day in which the matter of differential standards was the topic du jour.

Gold stars all around!

Marshal said...

“Don’t wait for us to show the way,” Williams said to students"

Sounds a lot like "be a Lone Wolf" doesn't it?

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Darn it, I always just miss Mary's deletable comments. I'm sure that they're horrible, but being denied a chance to see them makes me imgine that they contain some sort of hidden wisdom.

Maguro said...

"I'll give you my token minority admissions when you pry them away from my cold, dead hands!"

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

Jeff -- Diversity is a laudable goal for many, many reasons. Having a diverse student population is vital to having a good education. If you don't have diverse viewpoints, if you aren't exposed to them, how can you learn to think critically? Diversity comes in infinite forms: conservative/liberal. rich/poor, religion, skin color, geography, etc., etc. Diversity also comes in the courses on offer and the professors and the books. And the extracurricular activities and the food.

Also, and this is where pro-affirmative action people have a small point, equality before the State is also substantive. If, for example, black people have equal rights to go to UW Madison, but there aren't any there because they can't get in, well, that's a social problem/

Still further, concerning black people specifically, there is something of an obligation on the party of society to ensure that black people have equal opportunities. We have seen what can happen when we don't make this a priority.

Having said all that, equality before the law is most important. And equality before the law means making merit the absolutely primary method of selecting qualified university candidates.

Big Mike said...

If you read my comment on your previous post, all I can say is that I'm amazed. Wisconsin undergraduates know how to act like grownups. Who knew?

Seven Machos said...

If this is Mary Mary, Althouse asked you to leave and never come back. She never does that, but she did it to you, which I can only take to mean that you went above and beyond the threshold of assholery that even Althouse has. You are in fact the only person she has ever banned, as far as I know. That's quite a testament.

So, you should slink away until things change for you.

Chase said...

The students were respectful tonight because someone got to their feeble minds in time to say "let's keep this as low profile and out of the general (read "national") consciousness! Let's not lose the gravy train!" They recognize that when the disparity of admissions rigging by the UW is exposed as the highest "No whites or Asians need apply" college in modern history, the country will go apeshit and demand that suits be filed.

Obama out! Keep his hands off the Supremes!

Mary said...
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rhhardin said...

Goffman's Lecture on Lectures comes to mind from the pictures.

Quayle said...

The quickest way to kill the issue is to attack the notion of 'elite' universities.

The quickest way to do that is to come up with a 21st century education model centered around our connecting technologies that kills the archaic lecturing model developed by the Europeans in, what, the 18th century?

khanacademy.org is rendering Math departments obsolete, at least as far as teaching in concerned.

BYU Idaho is now led by Kim Clark the former Dean of the Harvard Business School (, by calling of the Mormon church president.)

He has been given a charter to develop just such a radical new education model, and now they are starting to assemble a global on-line adjunct faculty that doesn't need to be full time, or reside in Rexberg Idaho.

Soon we'll separate out those that want an education and those that merely want eminence or credentials.

Carol_Herman said...

I don't think we need "socialism." That's something the Europeans excel at. And, basically, it's a system where people can't get into politics.

In America anyone who wants to, can get into politics.

The other interesting thing? There was a time women weren't getting into Caltech. It was a school for men. And, then, around 1963 this changed. Dr. Richard Feynman was DELIGHTED! He said seeing women in his classes made it much more exciting for him to teach.

What did I learn from this particular event? (I didn't learn anything new about our laws. Our Constitution works fine and dandy.)

Now that it costs so much money to go to college, I marvel that kids are still willing to keep on learning.

It's not as if the costs are forcing men and women to become farmers. Or to join the military.

And, I doubt that the kids are meeting anybody whose spent his life growing up in a ghetto.

When opportunities first came knocking? Yup. Poor people. From ghettos. Who had parents and siblings at home who were sacrificing, to make this climb up the educational ladder possible.

E.M. Davis said...

Socialism 101.

HA.

Mary said...
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Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

I don't think Althouse reads all her comment threads. She's obviously reading this one, and deleting your posts. You aren't going to win. Also, why be somewhere you aren't wanted?

So, just go.

xnar said...

We spread the word at the Red Gym that the debate was Wednesday. Perhaps that explains the admirable behavior.

Chuck66 said...

The old saying goes that I'll be alarmed about Global Warming when the alarmists act alarmed about Global Warming.

I'll be more in favor of university diversity programs when when the diversity czars put in a diversity program to get conservatives teaching in the socialogy and history departments.

MarkG said...

Socialism 101/What it is and why we need it.

I see creepy old perverts still haunt college campuses, preying on young freshmen.

Mary said...
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Sofa King said...

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised. I guess Garage could not make it?

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

Socialism 101/What it is and why we need it.

I got $1000 that says the woman holding that goofy propaganda grew up in a spacious home in a leafy suburb. There was a three-car garage involved, possibly an in-ground swimming pool.

vnjagvet said...

I wonder where you get such an entitled attitude in the first place?

At the risk of stating the obvious:

It's called taking the trouble to have and maintain a blog. What part of it's Althouse's blog don't you understand, Mary? Her blog, her rules no matter whether you feel they are arbitrary.

Seven Machos said...

Mary -- If you are Mary Mary, then you and Althouse have some terrible feud going. And, if I remember correctly, you wrote some low, low crap about Althouse and you know her personally. She didn't like it. She kicked your ass to the curb. Respect that.

If you aren't Mary Mary, then you should clear up the confusion.

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

I'm saying that Althouse kicked your ass out a long time ago -- if you are Mary Mary -- and that you have an obligation as a civilized human being to respect that. Get it?

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

Well, Mary, if you aren't Mary Mary, the one who Althouse kicked to the curb, you should email Althouse and tell her so.

Mary said...
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Carol_Herman said...

I think Karl Marx is rolling in his grave.

Or as Stephen Fry said, "I'll show you a communist plot, if you show me Karl Marx's grave."

You know I don't think this "screed" against the University of Wisconsin is gonna hold water.

While one of the guys up on the stage ... looks as old as CROOKS. Do these folks ever retire?

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

Mary -- There was a Mary here who Althouse apparently knew and who Althouse banned. Mary is a common name. That's why I'm saying Mary Mary, to try to connote the exact person who got banned, as opposed to all the other Marys in the world.

If you are that Mary, you should go. If you aren't, then you merely coincidentally have the same name. My advice is to email Althouse and explain, or possibly change your name.

E.M. Davis said...

"Mary Mary, why you buggin'?"

Mary said...
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Seven Machos said...

I was once Mary's Prayer.

Seven Machos said...

I am through officiating and explaining.

vnjagvet said...

Mary, I don't care who you are, but you have not grasped that this blog is a private forum. Its owner gets to make the rules. If you don't like them, you can always start your own. That's the beauty of your constitutional right to freedom of expression.

I understand and agree with some of your substantive points. Why not argue them and leave out the personal bullshit?

Milwaukee said...

Before the desire by liberals to make life better for Blacks began, a Black individual who achieved academic success did something. Now that success is tainted by Affirmative Action. We have loads of students of all colors going to college to take remedial courses. How the heck did they get out of high school in the first place, and into college in the second?

We could raised the achievement level of our high schools by reducing the number of high school seniors admitted to college by 75%. Tell the class of 2013 (this year's high school Juniors) that there will be 20% fewer places for them in college in the Fall of 2013. Each year reduce the number of seats available. So when the Class of 2016 arrives and there are just 25% of the seats there are now, they will have worked their buns off for those seats. The ones who didn't make it will have still worked hard in high school.

Affirmative action shouldn't be about race, but about socio-economic conditions of the student. We have Black children of wealthy families who are benefiting, while White children of poor families are not.

NotATeachersPet said...

First of all, if you characterize the budget protests as "riots," you're an idiot. None of the characteristics of a riot were present, and violence was minimal. In fact, I was there for many of the protests, and a notice about the illegality of carrying weapons into the capitol did not appear until the day the tea partiers were to arrive... telling, isn't it?

Second, I saw you taking video tonight. Why didn't you post any? Perhaps because you were hoping the students would be less respectful than they were - that is, after all, what you thrive on.

Mary said...
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Orion said...

Forgive me, but you're feeding an obvious troll...Deny it nutrients and it will either starve, or wander off somewhere else and pester them.

Orion

chickenlittle said...

Althouse wrote: both men chose to concentrate on policy, with the assumption that racial equality and harmony are the desired ultimate goals. What's the best way to get there?

@Althouse: If any of the "old ideas" for "getting there" explicitly dealt with how better qualified students are justifiably excluded--and especially younger ones who bear no responsibility for prior grievances--those legal arguments deserve to be heard again.

Please do not take a high road and assume that we all know this.

Seven Machos said...

violence was minimal

That right there is some hilarious shit. It was minimal, was it? So only a few people got beat up and a little property damage occurred. And that's cool with you, right? After all, what could be more important than the plush salary and benefits of teachers regardless of how effective they are?

Also, please note that it's over, dude. Your side got beat quite soundly.

Response prediction: the trickster argument!

vnjagvet said...

What's personal is your sniping at Althouse for running her blog as she sees fit.

ISTM you want to pick a fight with her.

Andy Freeman said...

How many of those folks demanding "diversity" are willing to give up their spot to increase it?

edutcher said...

Carol_Herman said...

I don't think we need "socialism." That's something the Europeans excel at.

That's the whole point; the Euros are worse at it than we are.

Look at the PIIGS (actually the PIFIBIGS).

vnjagvet said...

That's my last chum for Mary. She's now proven herself to be a troll. I'm done.

NotATeachersPet said...

The "trickster argument?" Is that like the "gotcha media" argument. Sorry for my choice of words. Violence was non-existent. Happy? Find sources to back up your assertions that there were people injured and property damage occurred, btw. And no - the Administrations absurd estimate of the damage to the capitol doesn't count. Try again.

NotATeachersPet said...

Also, you assumed I was male. That's interesting... but you're not a sexist, are you?

Seven Machos said...

Find sources to back up your assertions that there were people injured and property damage occurred

You find sources to back up your assertions that there were no people injured and no property damage occurred. I'll wait.

Also, you assumed I was male.

I call everybody dude, even insufferable bitches like you. And you are the sexist one. You wish to deploy terms that are not gender neutral.

Get over yourself. You lost.

Mary said...
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Mary said...
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Ann Althouse said...

All Mary's comments are deleted unread. That is my permanent policy. Nothing more to be said.

Mary said...
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Mary said...
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Beta Rube said...
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Pogo said...

I suspect this is the first time in their lives that these students heard a rational argument against race-preferenced college admissions.

As a result, they are ill-equipped to grasp its meaning. All their indoctrination thus far has been to reject such thoughts immediately, for they are evil.

This generation needs a "Footloose" movie about AA.

Lem said...

Affirmative Action is not going to be dissolved or done away with in our lifetimes.. (Supreme seats are stamped as such)

So why not redefine it in more palatable terms?

Affirmative Action could be though of as a Mendoza line.

In the Major Leagues The Mendoza Line is often thought of as the offensive threshold below which a player's presence in Major League Baseball cannot be justified, regardless of his defensive abilities.

Lets say the University is the academic equivalent of The Major Leagues.. and lets say that "diversity" is what a minority student would bring as a "defensive" contribution if you will.. meaning test scores could be below academic average..

I'm not an advocate of AA.. I'm just saying we need to make peace with it, for now, and move on.

We got bigger fish to fry.. like saving the country from Obama.

Chip S. said...

I'd like to place a blogside memorial to the comment by Beta Rube that died three slots above in a horrible threadwreck. It was a comment full of the promise of a vibrant future, and its untimely demise should not go unremarked.

It said, more or less, OT: GOP wins NY-9!

Waiting to hear Cedarford's take on the secret doings of the Progressive Jews in this election.

EDH said...

Socialism 101/What it is and why we need it

Infinitely more unfathomable reading material, however, is the title of the blue flyer curled over upside down:

"What is Holistic Admissions?"

My guess is an Holistic Admissions process is essentially indoctrination in Socialism 101.

Synova said...

So, I just finished my philosophy 156 paper for tomorrow. I had to demolish an argument that a free-enterprise system is superior to socialism. The argument as given was a crappy argument.

Employing the principle of charity I would conclude that the crappy argument was crappy on purpose as a learning exercise. If I employ paranoia I would conclude that the author of the text wrote a crappy argument because he's a socialist.

;-)

Ralph L said...

with the assumption that racial equality and harmony are the desired ultimate goals.
Assumes facts not in evidence.

Synova said...

Are we assuming that "Socialism 101 and why we need it" is promoting socialism instead of revealing it for what it is?

Lem said...

Sweet

NEW YORK (AP) -- Republicans have scored an upset victory in a House race that started as a contest to replace Rep. Anthony Weiner after he resigned in a sexting scandal but became a referendum on President Barack Obama's economic policies.

Retired media executive and political novice Bob Turner defeated Democratic state Assemblyman David Weprin on Tuesday in the special election to fill the seat vacated by Weiner, a seven-term Democrat who resigned in June.

Ann Althouse said...

Sorry, beta. I misaimed. Please repost.

Meade said...

"Second, I saw you taking video tonight. Why didn't you post any? Perhaps because you were hoping the students would be less respectful than they were - that is, after all, what you thrive on."

The students were respectful and didn't riot because they too saw Professor Althouse there, taking video. So they behaved themselves. Wherever she goes, she spreads enlightenment, civility, and good manners.

Now respect her authority!

Synova said...

Oh, funny. My brain is mush.

I read that as "Why we need a class called Socialism 101."

Carol_Herman said...

Before rich people took over Manhattan, it was full of diversity! This was its strong suit! Whatever your interests. Or your culture. You'd find places just for you, in a thriving big city.

The absolute worst thing that can happen would be to lose diversity!

By the way, it's not the Supreme Court that assures this. It's EXPERIENCE! Where you've had success, you've had diversity!

The best way to go downhill in a hurry is to cater to a bunch of rich white people! It's the price tag of why cities DIE. Or are only remembered for what they once contained.

Women, by the way, were the last people on line to be taught anything. (Or, like Sandra Day O'Connor discovered when she graduated second in her law school class at Stanford. All the "white shoe" firms wanted to offer her, was secretarial positions.) Back in the day when secretaries not only answered phones ... But the bright ones knew the difference between the various court forms. And, a man's success really depended on this talent. Which was kept in the background.

Now? As long as someone is willing to go into debt for the credential, you need to be grateful that the credential still has its appeal over a broad spectrum of people. Limit that, and GO OUT OF BUSINESS!

Emil Blatz said...

The audience looks well-fed and attentive, from behind.

Carol_Herman said...

At Pasadena City College, when you register, you're given a number. The number puts you in the back of the line.

You need to collect a certain amount of credits in specific courses, in order to graduate. It should take two years.

What doesn't stay the same is the number given to you at the beginning. Because as you move forward you get numbers allowing you to register for courses, that are smaller. As you go towards the front of the line. (Meaning you get to be first to register for any of the course offerings you want.)

At the end, I kept registering for clay classes. And, I already had my certificate. Plus, I already made it to Cal State LA for the last two years of a BA degree. (Pasadena College only issues AA degrees.) It's considered a junior college.

The points (or units) you earn at Pasadena City College are also transferable.

Lots of kids go to colleges only to find they can't transfer the subjects and grades they've already received.

Diversity is NOT the problem.

Doing work that won't be "transferable" is a much bigger issue.

You know, I'm not surprised the students were polite. This is one of the high water marks for all of our schools these days. Kids have been taught to be polite.

Mary said...
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Fred4Pres said...

It's Wisconsin, Cheese Curds that Squeek and Students who snap their fingers!

Fred4Pres said...

It's Wisconsin...Visit House On The Rock!

murgatroyd666 said...

Seven Machos wrote:

Further, diversity is nowhere in the Constitution. It's not even in a penumbra or an emanation.

It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.

AllenS said...

When these debates occur, I'd like to see someone stand up in front of the crowd and say: "Which one of you in attendance will give up your place in this university so someone of color can take your place. Please gather over there and we will remove you from the student population, so someone of color can take your place."

In other words, shit or get off the pot.

J said...

with improved, accessible,and affordable public education, AA wouldn't be an issue. And the real justification for current AA is economic background. The know-nothing conservatives (ie, A-house) would have American education follow an ivy league/Stanford model-- wealthy asians, WASPs and jews at private schools,and the poor folks nowhere to be seen. With 209 in effect that's the UCs as well.

Pogo said...

"We got bigger fish to fry.. like saving the country from Obama."

I would agree, Lem, but for that AA is how we got Obama in the first place.

Leftism controls the minds of the young, the press, TV and the movies. A many-headed Hydra.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Seven Machos wrote

"Jeff -- Diversity is a laudable goal for many, many reasons. Having a diverse student population is vital to having a good education. If you don't have diverse viewpoints, if you aren't exposed to them, how can you learn to think critically? Diversity comes in infinite forms: conservative/liberal. rich/poor, religion, skin color, geography, etc., etc. Diversity also comes in the courses on offer and the professors and the books. And the extracurricular activities and the food."

Well, yes and no. There's your 'diversity' of opinion, Seven. Diversity of opinion can be enlightening, agreed. But when you throw in skin color, well, you might as well be describing M & M's. Below the surface, its all tissue, organs, and water. Sometimes, too, there's a heart.

And, if 'diversity' is your 'goal', I submit to you that you may not actually accomplish much other than what many people (critical thinkers included) consider window dressing.

To say 'diversity' comes in 'infinite forms' really is a bit of a cop-out, no?

Diversity, simply put, is an attribute of a given set (2 or more).

The 'conversation' about diversity and its intended purpose as demonstrated by the left in this country is to cow whites and other select groups chosen for punishment of crimes against humanity into giving preference to nonwhites based on skin color.

In this case, a crime against humanity is simply being white or in the case of asians, hard working and intelligent.

Diversity of statistics, if used in baseball, would render the sport nothing more than a showcase of failure. And this is exactly what is on display in education and academia today.

TWM said...

Today's colleges are anything but diverse despite the obvious reverse discrimination against non-minority students as evidenced by this study. True diversity comes from diversity of thought and the honest, open discussion of different points of view, not, as Don't Tread said, by just throwing different skin colors together. The fact that the left that dominates college administrations and faculty does it's best to shut down any voice that does not agree with them - all the while urging students to join them - makes this impossible.

Synova said...

"And the real justification for current AA is economic background."

If the justification for racial preference is economic background then let it be about economic background without the racial preference, hm?

AllenS said...

I see Michael Haz said
Try this: Walk into the Union and ask "Hey, any of you white kids want to give up your place in line so an underprivileged black kid can get in??"

Listen for the sound of crickets.


at 9/13/11 7:29 PM

Brilliant minds...

Pogo said...

When the students agree to have their own grades subject to AA, I'll know they are serious.

As it stands, some other kid got screwed and they got in so all is well.

Hagar said...

"The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

John Roberts

Almost Ali said...

No one called for Obama's impeachment? Too bad I missed my flight.

Curious George said...

"Seven Machos said...
Jeff -- Diversity is a laudable goal for many, many reasons. Having a diverse student population is vital to having a good education. If you don't have diverse viewpoints, if you aren't exposed to them, how can you learn to think critically? Diversity comes in infinite forms: conservative/liberal. rich/poor, religion, skin color, geography, etc., etc. Diversity also comes in the courses on offer and the professors and the books. And the extracurricular activities and the food."

As far as I can tell you gave one reason...and it's bullshit. This reads like a high school stoner answer to an essay question when he doesn't know the material.

Critical thinking does require diversity at all...it only requires you think critically.

Almost Ali said...

Affirmative Action manufactured President Obama, and Michelle Obama.

Any questions?

J said...
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J said...

let it be about economic background without the racial preference, hm?

Like...based on socio-economic class? Why, you have an idea Comrade Synova--yet many in the working class/poor are "minorities" are they not? Either way, the anti-AA types are against any entitlements based on socio-economic class as well--why,that's like .sss..socialism. At Ayn Randhouse College, you do not use the S-word.

purplepenquin said...

"Kudos for not rioting."

Kudos to Ann & Meade for not lying by saying there was a riot...

Clyde said...

You want to talk about affirmative action? How about a Republican congressman in NY-9, a district that hadn't had one since 1923!

To put that in perspective, there were people who were born in that district, grew up, went to school, got jobs, got married, had kids, had grandkids, retired and died of old age without ever having a Republican congressman! And that's through good times and bad, strong Democrat presidential candidates and weak ones, but no Republican congressmen. Until now.

The last time a Republican held that seat, Vladimir Lenin was running the Soviet Union, Hitler had not yet attempted the Beer Hall Putsch, and Warren G. Harding was the President of the United States. That's about as safe as a seat gets. If the Democrats can't count on winning in a deep blue district like that, they're in serious trouble.

Hooray for 'diversity'!

Class factotum said...

"Which one of you in attendance will give up your place in this university so someone of color can take your place. Please gather over there and we will remove you from the student population, so someone of color can take your place."

As with so many ideas proposed by leftists - higher taxes, reduced energy usage - this sort of thing is for other people. As in, someone else needs to lose his place so that a POC can have the slot. Not the person proposing the idea.

Pogo said...

"Kudos to Ann & Meade for not lying by saying there was a riot..."

Sudoku to purplepenquin for a pointless insult.

Care to link to some prior "lie" about a riot?

John M Auston said...

How about this for a new slogan/bumper sticker/crowd shout:

"Merit, not disparate!"
"Merit, not disparate!"
"Merit, not disparate!"

Roger J. said...

the commenter known as J: can you produce an intelligent thought, proferred with some semblance of proper English language usage?

NYTNewYorker said...

"Affirmative Action is not going to be dissolved or done away with in our lifetimes.."

"We got bigger fish to fry.. like saving the country from Obama."

I dunno Lem, seems to me affirmative action is the reason Obama's staining the white house.

Lisa said...

I don't understand the justification for holding higher standards for one racial group over another.

Aren't we supposed to be selecting the best students possible?

If selecting the best students possible is not the goal in higher education, that may explain why America has fallen apart in recent years

NYTNewYorker said...

Good morning Ali, I see you said it first.

chickenlittle said...

The University is trying to have it both ways: keeping the meritocracy fierce and intense for whites and asians but easing admission standards for other races. I presume that supporters of affirmative action would agree that eventually the admissions criteria for minorities would have to rise and equalize -- once the numbers of applicants reflected their respective numbers in population. Do supporters of affirmative action concede at least that much?

Pogo said...

Selecting the best students possible hasn't been the goal in higher education for 40 years.

It's a distant fifth place to Multicuralism, PC, feminism, and queer theory.

"Selecting the best students" is considered racist normative hegemony.

SGT Ted said...

'Diversity' is a scam where leftists get to create whole University departments devoted to inconsequential "studies", that are little more than neo-Marxist indoctrination feifdoms and administrative sinecures for the graduates of previous phony "Diversity" degree programs.

The curriculae is little more than parroting leftwing racist/sexist KGB inspired "western Imperialism" propaganda; white males are "privileged" regardless of how poor they grew up, people of color and women are not.

Using female supremacism in the courts, they have ensconsed themselves into private businesses so the lawyers are comfortable. What is female supremacism in this case? The notion that in a business setting, female sensibilities are to be catered to. This is how women get to dress sexy for work and no one gives a shit, but if a man puts up a bikini calender, its "sexual harrassment" and re-education is needed for the whole staff.

"Diversity" as it is currently practiced, is little more than institutionalized bullying and harrassment of people leftists don't approve of.

DADvocate said...

Socialism is one of those things that sounds all warm and fuzzy. Everybody gets what they need and we're all happy. Kind of like having a Disney view of wild animals and living with bears.

As Timothy Treadwell found out. It doesn't work out that well in the long run.

chickenlittle said...

Seven Macho wrote: Having said all that, equality before the law is most important. And equality before the law means making merit the absolutely primary method of selecting qualified university candidates.

I'm not getting from Althouse's rather "incomplete" follow-up to the meeting whether that point was made or not.

Can someone point to another blog or website which is also covering this issue?

Quayle said...

white males are "privileged" regardless of how poor they grew up, people of color and women are not.

Women are not, not matter how rich or privileged was their upbringing.

Which creates the spectacle of white, upper class women in Manhattan screeching about women being oppressed.

All while berating their supposed sisters of the middle and lower classes - women of the heartland, because they don't line up on abortion rights, and the lower class African American women because they don't line up on lesbian rights and gay marriage.

But who cares about them, after all - none of THOSE women could get into Wellesley or Yale.

Fred4Pres said...

All we are saying
is give civility a chance...

NotATeachersPet said...

Don't flatter your wife so much Meade. The only people who know Althouse are those unfortunate enough to have had to suffer through a semester of her standing on her soapbox. Undergraduates certainly don't know who she is.

Pogo said...

@NotATeachersPet

I love the smell of bitter and burned out grad students in the morning.

Browndog said...

"Diversity".

Another concept highjacked by the left.

Synonyms
2. change, difference, variation, dissimilarity.

Always a good thing? Hardly.

The left boils diversity down to this:

A group of black, brown, yellow, red, and green skin colored people will always be superior to a group of white skin colored people.

Superior at what? Everything.

What about a group of all black, or brown, or yellow?

Well, that is the pinnacle of diversity...according to diversity specialists

george said...

It is sad that academia has fallen so low that it can't puzzle out that treating people differently based on their skin color is wrong. Only in a place as intellectually and morally stunted as a college campus could such an obvious truth be considered the radical, minority opinion.

AprilApple said...

BUT DON'T YOU DARE call the democrat-left SOCIALISTS.

roesch-voltaire said...

Kirby as Althouse pointed out nobody was shouted down and the debate took place with about as much civility as demonstrated in the Republican presidential debates with its own brand of cheering. Pogo, I don't know when you when to college but today any number of composition texts on argumentation contain essays on both sides of the AA issue. And Steven,the question is how to we measure merit--should it be strictly on ACT tests given that wealthy families send their kids to better schools and can afford to pay tutors to help improve their scores. If we want to continue to increase the size of the underclass in this country, then strict merit makes sense, but if we are looking to increase the size of the middle class, then other factors need to be considered.

Conservative.Cultural.Icon.53701 said...

Church murdered Clegg on the legal points and dragged him around the room by his ankles on the policy points. Clegg offered only trite, recycled talking points.

Clegg is a charlatan who sandbagged not only Larry Church but also the Federalist Society, using this occasion as a publicity stunt. The event was supposed to be 15 people with pizza.

J said...
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MadisonMan said...

IOW, most were wrong in their forecasts of brownshirt thugs appearing and drowning out the debate.

You must have a lot of economists posting here.

J said...

Roger J, Tennessee_tea tard: get yr GED feller, and then maybe learn the meaning of those big terms--like justification, socio-economic class, entitlement--or maybe just forget about it, dreck, and stick to chilton's manuals.

--the original forms of AA were based on economic standing, not just race (ie wealthy blacks or hispanics were not
entitled to credits/benes the poor ones from the 'hood were-- poor whites also had perqs, as in CA pre-209 days)

Roger J. said...

J: yawn

when you gonna come ove and beat me up douchebag?

J said...

Yeah reasoned debate isn't what you and the A-klan are interested in. Why not just be honest nazis or 'skins and state how much you hate the colored? That's what's yr about, Roger Duke

Roger J. said...

J: reasoned debate is not anything you know about--"reasoned" and J are mutually exclusive--but its a slow wednesday and I do enjoy fucking with you. carry on son. I eagerly await your next fulmination.

Roger J. said...

BTW J: I do like the ingmar bergman atavar--they are playing chess and you are playing checkers--quite appropriate

gutless said...

Is the woman with the Socialism 101 material an Affirmatron (Affirmatrix)? Kind of hard to tell.

Almost Ali said...

NYTNewYorker said...
Good morning Ali, I see you said it first.

First or last, I feel like I'm in the TwiHouse zone.

But thanks;)

NYTNewYorker said...

Ali, I know what you mean and we're still more than a year out from the election, yikes!