September 25, 2011

Romney crushes Perry in the Michigan straw poll.

"Romney received 51 percent of the 681 votes cast, a whopping 34-percentage point victory over second-place Perry, who garnered 17 percent...."

What's happening to Perry?
He's over.
He's in trouble, but he can bounce back.
He's fine. Straw polls mean little.
  
pollcode.com free polls 

155 comments:

ricpic said...

OT: Althouse, I'd love to hear your take on Drudge's layout today. It's Cain with finger in the air, Morgan Freeman and then a dropdown to Putin.

Carol_Herman said...

It depends on what you mean by "over."

If Perry stays in ... he'll be sleeping in motel rooms for another 14 months.

Back in 2000 ... Dubya carried his own pillow. Because he wanted a comfortable night's sleep. And, he likes this particular pillow.

Michigan wouldn't count if you were thinking about buying or leasing a car ... so why would anything in Michigan count when it came to choosing a candidate?

Is the GOP in trouble? Yes.

It's turned over the "primary process" ... which used to be an insider's game ... so you got the likes of Thomas E. Dewey. Till the country club GOP decided they had better win ... or the party would be dead.

Finding yourself facing diminishing returns ... has an odd way of producing a light ... that snaps on. And, back in 1952 "that light" chose Dwight David Eisenhower. (Golf. And, "do nothing." For 8 years. All decisions on what would pass were left to LBJ. Who'd pull another senator's testicles off ... if the senator didn't do as LBJ told him he had to do.) The country ran well, enough. Houses got built. A second car got added to the garage. And, there were jobs!

Of course, Eisenhower grew the Executive Branch. He had HUD. He added Education. And, he grew the Federal government.

Why did Ike do this?

Because he gained all his skills in building the military command up for WW2. And, he headed the alliance. He learned how to get along with a bunch of egos from other countries. (But never DeGaulle.) Didn't matter.

What's Obama got? A chance to cut things down to size, ahead.

And, a chance to win!

Right now, it's a tight race.

And, the thing Obama sees is that the GOP's got "talent problems." They've got this "litmus test." But the names get changed around ... so you're not supposed to recognize the weaknesses.

Here, you speak of Reagan. He, too, learned how to live with the egos of other men. To the point where when something got done he said "he didn't care who took the credit."

James Baker became a billionaire.

James Carville did not.

Up ahead? If you look at Europe ... you're going to see socialism die! You're going to see many heads explode. As they get blamed for going with the EURO.

And, for calling out names like "loony" when the BBC described the sane fiscal conservatives ... who warned about giving up sovereignty for the EURO ... all along.

Obama's just staying out of the debris path.

AJ Lynch said...

Timely data, the internet, a better informed voter makes the decision process more sophisticated. Repub voters have a hierarchy of needs:
#1- Vote for whoever is most likely to appeal to fence-sitters and to beat Obama
#2 - Vote for a conservative

Romney beats Perry in that hierarchy.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

You need to add "It's still more than a year until the election and a lot of things can happen!" as a choice.

Browndog said...

um....most Michiganders view Romney as one of their own (Rightly or wrongly).

This straw poll means absolutely nothing.

Less than that, actually.

JohnJ said...

Well, things are not “fine.”

But as I said on another thread about Cain’s “victory” in Florida, straw polls mean next-to-nothing. More telling, I think, is what people are saying with their money. There has been a dramatic, 20+% swing toward Romney on Intrade since the Florida debate. That probably characterizes Perry’s unraveling better than his poor showing in a straw poll in Romney’s native state.

ndspinelli said...

Romney has ties to Michigan going back to his old man. I don't usually post on Republican presidential candidates but the aforementioned point must be made.

ndspinelli said...

I just said more in a few words than The Ditz did in hundreds of rambling, mindless words. She is the personification of the warehouse appliance store credo: "How do we have these low prices? Volume, volume, volume."

BJM said...

I can't help but notice that the Left, MSM and WH haven't piled on Romney as one would think they would a front runner.

Is Romney the opponent they feel most confident about defeating? The left usually signals whom they fear most by the ferocity of the smear/attack machine.

Where's the beef? The dirt on his cronies and aides? The investigation into his wife's vajayjay?

edutcher said...

It's a warning to Perry and, particularly, his organization.

He can come back - don't forget Dubya had similar troubles early on, but he's got to get it together.

And what nd, to a certain extent said. What the Romney family's MI connections are 45 years after the fact may not be all that great.

PS I still say Carol's still got the hots for Willie.

Joe said...

Perry made the classic political mistake of hubris; assuming his own charm and intelligence would be so blindingly obvious to voters that he need not actually prepare. He failed to respect that voters HATE being taken for granted.

bagoh20 said...

What's happening to Perry? Illegal imigration - it's that simple.

I'm conflicted about it, but it's a very emotional subject for conservatives. People breaking the law and then being rewarded with special tax funded benefits is about as anti-conservative as you can get, especially when law abiding citizens are both suffering and paying the bills. It's Perry's undoing.

So it's Romney's Romneycare vs Perry's illegal immigration. Who's self-inflicted injury is more damaging? Both men can make good arguments for their ailments, but campaigns are not about good arguments.

Candidates always have some issue that just ruins their perfection to the base. Even Obama had his weasel positions on gay issues.

Why can't things that taste good be slimming?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Perry seems unprepared.

He should have anticipated the attacks regarding the vaccination issue, in state tuition, his remarks on border fence building. He should have been ready to explain the rational behind the policies and combat the distortions by the other candidates.

Seems like he needs to get some debating coaches to give him pointers on how to counter arguments.

Just repeating the same words over and over "boots on the ground" is not getting the information out or clarifying his positions.

We need to ignore the MSM and STOP letting them chose the candidates for us. This is what we get when we let them squeeze out candidates like McCotter and other qualified candidates through either just ignoring them or attacking and distorting their records so that the sheeple just go along with the latest whitebread cucumber sandwich candidate..... like Romney.

I really don't care who the Republicans nominate as long as that person unseats Obama. If we do not get our act together and quit squabbling over minutia our country is screwed.

Actually, it is probably to late to undo the Obama damage, but we should at least give it a try.

Carol_Herman said...

How come the GOP isn't smart enough to run a debate with Palin V Christie. They could call it "The Debate of the Potentials."

Taking their guess that people out there would support both of these candidates with more enthusiam than for the lot that's putting on this turkey show.

Turkey shoot?

By Thanksgiving we will know who becomes dinner ... and who gets to keep on living in motel rooms. Until the convention. Which will run WILD! The more staging the "handlers" try ... the more restive will become the audience!

WAIT! There will be homemade signs!

If those with signs aren't allowed in ... They'll take to the streets.

You haven't heard, yet, from a majority of the American people.

campy said...

So we have a potential ticket of Funny Underwear Man and Pizza Guy.

Sigh.

Could you repubs at least pretend you're trying to win? It would make things more entertaining, at least.

sorepaw said...

here has been a dramatic, 20+% swing toward Romney on Intrade since the Florida debate.

When did Intrade begin anticipating that the Republicans would take somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 House seats from the Democrats last year?

Just wondering how reliable an indicator it usually is.

edutcher said...

In partial defense of Perry, I have to say his stand on illegal immigration has been misrepresented, but that's the point. If he can't defend his stands in a moderately friendly venue, what happens when the Alinskyoids go after him?

The in-state tuition thing is a great example, refuted here. Likewise, Perry's stand against the AZ approach and the Fence is that the Feds should be made to do their job (hard to disagree) and that you'll get better mileage with the aforementioned boots (I'd want Regulars instead of Guard).

But, again, he needs to make his case. I can't speak to how right Dan Riehl is right about TX campaigns, but it seems to make sense.

WV "arnulk" The Governator's next gig.

David said...

Straw polls are not elections, but Perry is not going to last long, methinks.

bagoh20 said...

Carol Herman is rogue software. There is no other explanation. She is living on an abandoned 1998 PC that was left running when it's owner slipped in the bathtub of her remote mountain home. The place runs on solar panels and so Carol will continue to generate random comments indefinitely.

David said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...
Perry seems unprepared.


Nice nutshell, DBQ.

rcocean said...

Illegal immigration is killing Perry. He's not against it, but for it. Of course, he just needs to Flip-Flop and lie about how he's changed his mind and we just need to "build the dang fence".

If he does this, in 2 months the stupid Republicans will think he's really against illegal immigration and vote for him.

Then when nominated, he can flop back, at which time the stupid Republicans will say "we need to stand by our nominee".

DKWalser said...

I wish it meant Perry was over, but it doesn't. Michigan is Romney's home state. He grew up there. His father was governor there. A straw poll there means just a little more than a straw poll in Massachusetts or Texas would. Had Romney lost, the result would have said a lot about Romney. Romney's win tells us virtually nothing about the other candidates.

Paddy O said...

could someone tell me what the difference in validity is between a straw pool and a web poll?

Both seem to be polling self-selecting participants, which mostly only determines the choice of those who like to do those kinds of things.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Illegal immigration is killing Perry. He's not against it, but for it. Of course, he just needs to Flip-Flop and lie about how he's changed his mind and we just need to "build the dang fence".

That is not true. Perry, and the State of Texas, is being pragmatic and practical when it comes to dealing with the in state tuition for the children of illegals. That doesn't make him pro illegal immigration.

The in state tuition break is given to children who have graduated from a Texas school, who have lived in the state for over 3 years and they must be in the process of applying for citizenship. They get the same tuition rate as any other student that satisfied the same requirements. Just like their classmates and friends that they went to school with. It isn't a subsidy.

It isn't the fault of the children that their parents brought them illegally to the country. Why punish motivated students for their parent's acts. Wouldn't you rather encourage them to become citizens, get education, get jobs, become productive? It is just practical to encourage instead of punish in this instance.

They, Texas and other border states especially, have a big problem and are trying to deal with it despite the lack of Federal enforcement of the laws and the actual aiding and abetting of illegal immigration by the Federal Government. Texas, Arizona etc. They are trying to do it on their own.

He should NOT give up his stance on building a complete fence on the border. It is a stupid idea: that you are going to build a big wall of china type of fence and then call it good. Have you ever BEEN to Texas or along the southern border? It is miles and miles of desolate, barren, inhospitable and difficult terrain.

Perry is right. Build a fence in selected areas and have a larger, more effective patrol by people and electronic and aerial surveillance.

Bachman had it right also. Remove the magnet of freebies. Free housing, food stamps, etc etc etc. Stop subsidizing illegals and they won't be flooding into the country.

Cedarford said...

Straw polls have little meaning. Ron Paul and Pastor Huckleberry won most of the evangelical - dominated ones from Iowa down south, Romney a couple of similar gatherings of "grass roots activists" in 2008.
This year, the popular front runner Michelle Bachmann kicked off her triumphant march with a win in the Iowa straw poll.. Oh, she ISN'T the front runner but a slightly crazed vaccine-obsessed lady?? People don't really want the 2-term Congresswoman to fight-fight-fight for them in the White HOuse? Nevermind! But she does have nice hair.

==================
"BJM said...
I can't help but notice that the Left, MSM and WH haven't piled on Romney as one would think they would a front runner."

They did that in 2008, while they were setting up their boy Johnny McCain as the patsy the Annointed One would run against. Remember..for every nasty narrative they hatched on Romney or Huckabee or Rudy...McCain was touted as the seasoned bipartisan genius. He was the hero Prisoner of unlimited vision and unlimited moral authority that only comes from being captured by the enemy and suffering to make you correct on most issues and show infinitely more character than "lesser Americans" who Never Served!!

Then of course after McCain was nominated, the Left and the media clobbered him right between the eyes with a shovel. The treacherous McCain, the backstabber to countless Republicans, never saw the Left and MSM's 'betrayal of him" coming.
To this day he is probably oblivious that he has always been a patsy-boy for the NY TImes to call on whenever they need a fig leaf of bipartisanship on a liberal program.

edutcher said...

DKWalser said...

I wish it meant Perry was over, but it doesn't. Michigan is Romney's home state. He grew up there. His father was governor there. A straw poll there means just a little more than a straw poll in Massachusetts or Texas would. Had Romney lost, the result would have said a lot about Romney. Romney's win tells us virtually nothing about the other candidates.

Isn't this the only one Romney's won - or even come close?

PS What DBQ said. Keep also in mind Texas probably has more assimilated Mexicans that any other Southwestern state but NM.

traditionalguy said...

New campaign slogan:
"Yes we Cain."

NYTNewYorker said...

Some on the far right are saying they won't vote for Romney.

RomneyCare is a bridge too far for them.
They held their nose voting for McCain and say they won't do that again, ignoring, so far, that that will reelect Obama.

I cannot count the times that I heard people say, during B. Clintons era, "don't blame me I voted for Perot".

Here we go again.

Joe said...

The fence is a joke:

http://tiny.cc/25x7t

Cedarford said...

DBQ - "He should NOT give up his stance on building a complete fence on the border. It is a stupid idea: that you are going to build a big wall of china type of fence and then call it good. Have you ever BEEN to Texas or along the southern border? It is miles and miles of desolate, barren, inhospitable and difficult terrain."

--------------

No one says that a single great fence is a solution, but it is a barrier that slows up or channels invading Mexicans into certain areas in any attempt to deal with it. It need not be impermiable, high security stuff. And people than think building a substantial fence is a human construction project akin to building the Panama Canal or a 20 mile bridge across the straights of Gibraltar or constructing the whole interstate highway system have no idea!!
I think in one five year period, a private ranch in Texas built 380 miles of high tech fence. Complete with motion detectors and other sensors that detected breaks in it, unexpected crossings indicated. And it could be optionally electrified in sections.

If Perry was correct and fences are worthless and all you need are uniformed hero "boots on the ground" then the fences surrounding all the military bases where the heroes normally have their "boots on the ground" are entirely unecessary and a waste of money.

Besides physical deterrance, you also have the opportunity to snag any smuggler gang the sensors pick up destroying a section of fence for destruction of US property. Which is another layer of deterrance to Open Borders past the physical barrier. Get caught breaching, you are up on criminal charges if the Feds want to prosecute ...so many coyotes will not want to take the risk, or will charge more in light of new risks , which will make crossing less affordable.

(That is how they indicted and convicted several anti-nuke protestors in the 80s that were caught cutting their way through a remote sensor-backed fence on a nuke base. Trespassing and criminal destruction of in excess of 5,000 dollars of Federal property (felony).)

The cost of high tensile, woven wire mesh, barbed wire-topped fencing costs between 1.28 and 2.81 a foot to construct. Even if you do a double fence with a smoothed dirt strip, sensor grid, jersey barrier to prevent vehicles from crashing through - the costs are hardly significant for hundreds of miles constructed compared to what we pay government to feed, house, school, and give free medical care for illegals. (or law enforcement costs).

A fence, backed by sensors and Perrys "heroes with boots on the ground", and further backed with employer sactions for hiring illegals to lower US wages, cutting benefites illegals get - would be effective. Not only against illegals swarming in, but also as a real imediment to drug smuggling into the US and weapons smuggling out of the US.

And of course could be made even more secure by "un-PC upgrades" like electrification, minefields, machine gun towers now absolutely off the table, of course...but employed between nations that design a Border that an enemy cannot cross except at great lethal peril.

Lucius said...

bagoh20 makes a strong point: the biggest impression Perry's put over in the debates so far is that he is completely in thrall to Open Borders. I can't imagine any words dropping out of a politician's mouth that convey a more staunch attitude about that.

Romney? I imagine his heart's probably with the WSJ editorial board; but guess what-- he bends to the wind. Imagine, sometimes it's nice to have a politico who'll do what the polls tell him to do. It's a tiny sliver of hope.

btw: how many Hispanic votes do you think nominee Perry might pick up? --this is a Rovian pipe dream. As political creatures, Hispanic voters are glued to the Dem AA tit.

madAsHell said...

So.....who counts the votes?

Better yet, who pays the vote counters??

Bruce Hayden said...

Well, let's guess which candidate won in Michigan.

One candidate was born and grew up there, and one was born and grew up in Texas. One candidate's father was governor there, and the other's father a rancher in Texas. Oh, and one candidate sounds normal, and the other has an obnoxious southern/Texan drawl.

rcocean said...

Perry is FOR illegal immigration. There in NO reason to believe he will do anything to stop it, and every reason to think he will push for Amnesty even harder than Bush II.

Like Bush II he always has an excuse to do nothing to reduce the inflow. So, his obvious path to victory is to simply flip flop and lie, like Romney and McCain.

Mitochondri-Allie said...

Anyone see a pattern here?

Lucius said...

How many M60 tanks do we have mothballed? Just for fantasy's sake, I'll one-up cedarford and propose we dig them in along the Mexico border, like the Russians do in Siberia.

It could be a great Works program-- a new Maginot line!

But seriously: no amount of casuistry can save Perry on this. He is FOR illegals. And while my Fortified Zone might be over-the-top, I'm not sure I wouldn't advocate (in a more stoic world) denying the children of illegals in-state tuition.

Yes, the kids didn't actively choose to come over (presumably) but the *parents* did--the parents (just like those fine Chinese birthing migrants who want education freebies for their offspring) could calculate education among the perks of entering our country illegally: so I say, yes, deny them in-state tuition. Too tough? Well, what about kids in South Dakota or North Carolina who want a U Texas education? What did they (or their parents) do 'wrong'?

DKWalser said...

@edutcher: Romney made a strategic decision to not compete in straw polls this time. (Recall, in the 2008 election, he won the Iowa straw poll in the Summer only to lose the following Winter's caucus.) His campaign doesn't believe competing in straw polls is the best use of resources. 

Despite not actively competing, Romney's done fairly well in straw polls. Take the recent Florida straw poll for an example. Cain competed, spoke at several events (by all accounts, his speeches were very well received), and handily won the poll. Perry competed, bought breakfast for all the delegates who would sit through his giving a speech, and he came in a distant second. Romney didn't compete, didn't speak, yet he came within one point of Perry.  

Perry tried very hard to win. With all the time, money, and effort he invested in the effort, he only beat Romney by one point.  Straw polls, as a general rule, don't tell us much about the candidates.  In this case, the poll accurately reflects Perry's current weakness. The Michigan poll, in contrast, doesn't tell us much. 

Cedarford said...

DBQ - "It isn't the fault of the children that their parents brought them illegally to the country. Why punish motivated students for their parent's acts. Wouldn't you rather encourage them to become citizens, get education, get jobs, become productive?"

---------

Since university seats and student financial aid is finite, the liberal talking point DBQ echoes of course omits discussion of anyone punished besides the illegals they champion.
But if you admit 300 illegals into a university with 3900 seats, of course you punish the US citizens -parents and children who through no fault of their own, lost those 300 seats and many losing seats despite higher grades and test scores due to so many illegals qualifying for affirmative action admittance "bonus points".

And besides whites and Asians, many native black and hispanic americans have reasonable, just concern about where the limited aid and grants go. Through no fault of their own US citizens work on the books, save money in the US, invest in homes and equities. Who gets the grant or the coveted Fed no interest loan? The hispanic US citizen with a declared family income of 48,000 between mom & dad, plus home equity and savings worth another 85,000? Or the illegal who claims no home, no money, no mas?

Lets also acknowledge that other foeigners or dual citizens that got these state and Federal loans worth 100s of thousands have just walked away from paying them. Back to their homelands, untouchable from collecting on what they owe.

Overseas, one of the dumbest things the Irish did was make "easy money" for car purchases available to dealerships so foreign workers from East Europe constructing the "New Ireland" could get their dream car. And the crazy Romanians, Hungarian gypsies, Albanians Bosnians, etc. - went out and bought top of the line BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, Lexus. Crazy. And they beat the cars to hell. Then when the financial crisis hit and the gravy boat the foreign workers had enjoyed looked to be ending, shocked Irish read that in a week over 600 once-high value cars had been dumped at Shannon Airport by departing foreign workers. Many with stereos, on-board computers removed from the cars and packed into airline luggage going back to Transylvania.
Irish government and taxpayer on tap for making bankers and dealers "whole" so that native Irish jobs would not be lost in car loan driven bankruptcies (the foreign workers left owing 90-95% of principal).

Who was crazier? The native Irish, or the foreign workers.

BJM said...

I agree with Joe, the fence is a joke unless you're prepared to go to this length.

Even a kill zone didn't thwart some. A friend and his parents escaped Czechoslovakia when he was 13.

The fences along the Austrian border in the remote forests were mined, electrified and alarmed but not manned, only patrolled and in the depth of winter the response time on an alarm trip gave them a window of opportunity.

They skied and snow-shoed for three days, hid and waited for the scheduled patrol to come and go. They then followed animal footprints across the mined zone, shorted the fence, cut through and walked three more days to freedom.

These are the risks desperate people are willing to take. You can't keep the promise of a better life behind a fence.

DKWalser said...

@DBQ:

Perry might have the right policy on in-state tuition breaks for illegal aliens. I'll note that there are good arguments on both sides of the policy question and leave the debate for another day. The problem I have with Perry on this issue is that Texas's in-state tuition program violates federal law. That is, federal law prohibits any state from granting its illegal residents educational benefits the state does not grant another state's legal residents. That is, the law forbids Texas from charging in-state tuition to Texas illegal residents if Texas won't grant Oklahoma's legal residents the same tuition break.

Perry is aware that the federal government has no intention of enforcing this law. That, in my opinion, does not excuse his advocating his state adopt a policy that violates the law. I want a President that respects the rule of law. Perry's actions in this matter cause me to question his willingness to follow the law even when the law crimps his preferred policy choices.

Bender said...

Romney must be brainwashed if he thinks that getting rejected by nearly half in the land of George Romney is a positive outcome.

Meanwhile, nationwide, he routinely tops out at 20-25 percent. After running for president for over five years, he still can't get people excited about him. At best, all he can do is trash other Republicans and hope to back into the nomination.

edutcher said...

Lucius said...

btw: how many Hispanic votes do you think nominee Perry might pick up? --this is a Rovian pipe dream. As political creatures, Hispanic voters are glued to the Dem AA tit.

The numbers say otherwise. Next to blacks, Hispanics are hardest hit these days and people do vote their pocketbooks.

That's why the Demos are worried GodZero is their Herbet Hoover.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If Perry was correct and fences are worthless

You would be correct if Perry actually said that. However, he never said fences were worthless. Making shit up doesn't make your argument any more correct.

The stance of Perry and anybody who has ever been to the border and has seen the situation is that fences and barriers would work in SOME areas and are worthless in other areas WITHOUT manned surveillance.

You are right. It isn't a complicated or excessively expensive process to building barriers and fences. It isn't hard to man the border with personnel and equipment. The Federal Government and the liberals who WANT illegal immigration refuse to do it and block every effort to enforce the laws.

THAT is the real problem.

But if you admit 300 illegals into a university with 3900 seats, of course you punish the US citizens -parents and children who through no fault of their own, lost those 300 seats and many losing seats despite higher grades and test scores due to so many illegals qualifying for affirmative action admittance "bonus points"

Affirmative action is a completely different and extraneous talking point to the subject of whether in state tuition rates should apply to the children of illegal aliens who qualify for college and who qualify for the in state rate.

Darcy said...

No surprise at all to me here in Michigan. The GOP is weak here. Very. Even after recent successes.

We never went for Bush, either. And McCain won the primary for 2008. So... :)

We're so gonna get McCained again. Actually, I shouldn't say "we". I'm not a Republican and at this rate, I never will be.

Scott M said...

Why "he's in trouble but can bounce back" only? Why not a "he's in trouble" period?

I've said before. I'm an ABO at this point, but I want a GOP nominee that will absolutely go for the jugular in the debates with POTUS. So far, Perry doesn't look like that guy. A great first campaign commercial, but he's seems like he's faltering under the weight of his own responses.

Bender said...

We're so gonna get McCained again.

If so, then we deserve to get Obamaed again, whether it is original recipe or Obama-lite.

Michigan is a hell-hole and it deserves to be with the folks that they routinely elect and re-elect there.

Lucius said...

@edbutcher: So you're expecting hard-hit African-Americans to vote GOP in '12? Just checking . . .

Dust Bunny Queen said...

That is, the law forbids Texas from charging in-state tuition to Texas illegal residents if Texas won't grant Oklahoma's legal residents the same tuition break.

Oklahoma residents are not precluded from getting the in state tuition break IF they have met the same qualifications as everyone else. Graduate from a Texas school and meet the residency requirements. California and many other states have similar rules. There is nothing illegal about it.

The Federal Government has no business in a State's internal laws. Too much Federal overreach and intrusion into the business of the States. The Tenth Amendment.

This is a big issue that Perry and the rest of the Republicans should leverage. People are sick of the Federal Government attempting to control every aspect of our lives. State's rights is an issue that I think the Republicans could use to their benefit.

Bender said...

You frag Perry in the back at your own risk.

See who you have left.

Lucius said...

@BMJ: And you're saying Mexico is like-- Czechoslovakia? East Germany?

I wouldn't know how to live in Mexico. But they do have elections.

And the 2nd highest obesity rate in the world. But we're no. 1. So yeah-- I guess machine guns can't keep a body away from the 'dream of a better life' . . . .

Lem said...

I'm not exited about any of these guys.. I'm hoping my governor gets in.. but when I think of his health issues.. I dont know.

sorepaw said...

And of course could be made even more secure by "un-PC upgrades" like electrification, minefields, machine gun towers now absolutely off the table, of course...but employed between nations that design a Border that an enemy cannot cross except at great lethal peril.

Not to mention Vopos, er, a special new guard corps, under a standing Schiessbefehl (shoot-to-kill order).

That'll almost do it, from Cedarford's point of view.

Almost, because what he'd ultimately like to see is people being prevented from fleeing to Mexico...

Lem said...

Let me be clear.. I will not vote for Obama.. given the current choice I will hold my nose and vote for Romney.

Lucius said...

"BJM", rather. --sorry.

@DBQ: You work these arguments as well, I suppose, as one could for Perry: but in this case a federalism that allows Perry to incentivize illegal immigration, and thumb his nose at federal efforts at enforcement of immigration law, is just wrong-headed.

People do want the federal government to 'overreach' against states that aren't doing enough (Perry's Texas) to deal with this national problem.

rcocean said...

"@edbutcher: So you're expecting hard-hit African-Americans to vote GOP in '12? Just checking . "

Yes, of course. Republicans have "Reaching out" to AA's ever since Nixon. Result: 95 percent voted for Obama. Of course, only 90 percent voted for Kerry and Gore, so maybe we can pick up that extra 5 percent in 2012 if we try really hard.

rcocean said...

I agree with logic on this thread. If you can't build a perfect fence that keeps 100% of illegals out, why build it?

"Perfection or nothing" - its the Perry way.

DKWalser said...

@BJM: "These are the risks desperate people are willing to take. You can't keep the promise of a better life behind a fence."

You are right. No fence, no matter how high or strong, can keep out (or in) someone's who's truly determined. However, no one in favor of the fence is claiming it would be 100% effective. What's being claimed is that the fence would reduce the number of illegal crossings from thousands a day to a far more manageable number.

Your example from the cold war supports the argument for a fence along the border. Before the Soviet Union built its walls and fences, thousands were escaping to freedom. After they built their walls and fences, the number attempting to escape dropped dramatically. In some years no one made it to the West and freedom. Did the fences and walls reduce escapes to zero? No. Still, the they served their purpose very well.

Now, you might want to shift the argument to saying you're on the side of freedom and anyone who wants a fence is on the side of the USSR. Fine. Try to make that argument if you want. Just remember, your original argument was that fences don't work. Your examples prove that they do work very well.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me be clear.. I will not vote for Obama.. given the current choice I will hold my nose and vote for Romney.

I go back and forth on Romney. He would have been the best candidate in 2008, and would likely have done a far better job than either McCain or (esp.) Obama with the economy. And, I suspect that he would have been harder to bamboozle on the Goldman-Sachs enrichment scheme, aka, the financial bailout.

The budget cutting is going to be done in Congress, once Harry Reid is off the podium, and the Republicans retake the Senate, as they most likely will do in 2012. What is needed in the White House is the willingness to cut the bureaucracy and red tape, as well as the ability to do so. It is going to be a lot of hard work, and a lot of talented conservatives are going to be required at the departments and agencies to accomplish it. The Democrats have been staffing top career positions in many of the agencies with leftists as fast as they can - presumably knowing that they will only have these four years to lock in their changes. These ideologues need to be rooted out, and that isn't going to be easy, as they will have Civil Service protection.

Because one of the biggest problems is going to be fixing the bureaucracy, I think that we need someone who is or has been a governor to even have a chance. Of the governors, Perry has more years of experience, but Romney has a lot of valuable business experience, and better training. Palin has less experience than either, but seems much more willing to do what is needed.

Four years ago, I was a Romney supporter. A month ago, he was about my 13th choice. But I am seriously reconsidering him, despite all of his weaknesses.

Saint Croix said...

You know, it wasn't the "tuition for illegals" that bit Perry, it was his loose talk about all the "heartless" Republicans who disagreed with him.

Now that's a sound bite we will be hearing again in 12 months!

I imagine there are any number of Republicans who don't like being called "heartless," particularly by another right-winger.

I mean, call us heartless for cheering the death penalty, or appaluding when some hypothetical man is shut out of a hospital, or booing a gay soldier.

But to call us heartless over this?

Is there any country in the world that pays college tuition for illegal immigrants? So is the rest of the world heartless too?

Maybe President Perry can go on a worldwide lecture tour and tell the world how heartless it is.

He should sing a country song and try to get us to cry a little.

Fred4Pres said...

Perry is in serious trouble, but Romney is not exactly got it clinched. Cain is going to be more formidable than people think, but Cain has a long fight too.

It is wide open and anyone's game (other than Huntsman who I think has really no chance). Even Bachmann has a way outside chance.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Is there any country in the world that pays college tuition for illegal immigrants? So is the rest of the world heartless too?

Look. I'm not a Perry supporter however, it does you no good to just make shit up when you are presenting an argument.

Texas is NOT paying the college tuition for the children of illegals. The kids, who went to school in Texas and meet the same qualifications for residency as the OTHER kids in their same class are getting the In State tuition.

The students still have to pay the SAME tuition as the other Texas students, unless they are getting other scholarships or OTHER financial aid. They are paying the same as everyone else.

And, YES it is heartless to punish hard working students for their parents crimes.

The students are not getting special treatment. They are being treated just the same as their classmates, many of which they have went to school with for their entire life.

I don't like illegal immigration. It is destroying our economy,destroying our laws and destroying our nation.

We need to enforce the laws. The Federal Government is responsible for this mess. The States that are flooded with illegal immigrants have been left to deal with the repercussions of the Feds lack of enforcement.

Cedarford said...

BJM - "Even a kill zone didn't thwart some. A friend and his parents escaped Czechoslovakia when he was 13."

The example you gave, which proves like the death penalty and plane crashes that nothing man constructs is perfectly foolproof???..That would be remiss in not mentioning the obvious. For the most part, fences work. Only a couple dozen braved crossing border fennces between CZ and Austria, E&W Germany after the modern barriers came up in the 60s, the Pakistan India border fence, Thai-Cambodia border fence & minefield 1971-2001.

Effective? Dozens crossed. Not the 25 million fucking people that walked across the Mexican US Border since the 60s.

The argument that a fence is a "waste of effort" because a couple of dozen crossed anyways, so a fence that would block millions isn't worth it because it failed to be 100% perfect - is asinine.

------------------
DBQ - "Affirmative action is a completely different and extraneous talking point to the subject of whether in state tuition rates should apply to the children of illegal aliens who qualify for college and who qualify for the in state rate."

Unfortunately for you, people do not neatly compartmentalize things. They think these things through in complete context.

The argument becomes for white and Asians - "Do you favor admittance of illegal aliens for the scarce university seats you are competing for, at a tuition rate subsidized by your taxes and not their own contribution - and knowing that illegals have a better chance of being admitted than you, even with lower grades and scores, due to affirmative action.

The argument for native blacks and hispanics becomes "knowing schools and employers prefer foreign hispanics over long-native hispanics and Caribbean and African blacks over American blacks as smarter with a stronger work ethic - how many of your AA slots will you give up to them?"

And for all - "The Dream Act will give all sorts of loans and financial grants to illegals. Scarce dollars, that may dry up for others with parents who are "richer" because they work on the books, because the illegal can say no money was not his fault and he has a compelling life story of braving bandits to walk from Hondouras to Florida, was politically persecuted as a Nigerian Muslim from a royal family that lives in a 900,000 dollar Bronx townhouse but claims no income, was a Chinese that hated communism and had an arduous life.
Oh, and how do you all feel about being hounded the rest of your life paying off student loans, when all the illegal has to do is take his or her engineering, tech, prelaw, premed degree back to China, Nigeria, Mexico...and not be on the hook to repay a cent of the money owed.

Sorry, DBQ, those factors are not extraneous to American citizen. The in-state tuition is not the ONLY factor on perks and bennies to illegals they are weighing.

Joe said...

How about 10% rcocean, if that? It takes less than 30 seconds to climb over the fence. How is that an obstacle? Illegals are willing to walk hundreds of miles through stifling heat into an unfamiliar country and you think a fence that can be breached in under thirty seconds is going to do anything?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Sorry, DBQ, those factors are not extraneous to American citizen. The in-state tuition is not the ONLY factor on perks and bennies to illegals they are weighing.

Duh. To quote another com mentor.

Obviously you have not read any of my comments on this thread or other threads on illegal immigration.

Until you read what I write and stop putting words in my mouth, I have no further responses to you.

Joe said...

"& minefield" Cedarford. No American politician with any brains and a desire to continue to hold office is going to advocate planting minefields along the US/Mexican border.

J. R. said...

Romney? Perry? All the same, isn't it?

Except, of course, that one is a Mormon and one is a Texan.

Does it matter, though? Nah...

They are the same. They are one. They are borg. They are the Republican Establishment.

Amen.

Lombardi Chick said...

So we have a potential ticket of Funny Underwear Man and Pizza Guy.

Sigh.

Could you repubs at least pretend you're trying to win? It would make things more entertaining, at least.

9/25/11 12:10 PM


So, you're calling a successful businessman a "pizza guy"? A little condescending, don't you think?

What has Obama ever done in business, besides kill it? Oh wait - yeah...there was Solyndra. He didn't kill it. He just knew it was really, really sick when he gave them millions and millions of taxpayer dollars.

sorepaw said...

Now, you might want to shift the argument to saying you're on the side of freedom and anyone who wants a fence is on the side of the USSR. Fine. Try to make that argument if you want. Just remember, your original argument was that fences don't work. Your examples prove that they do work very well.

The example of the USSR shows that fences achieve their intended purpose, when backed up with

(1) Internal passports.
(2) Secret police.
(3) Border guards under standing orders to shoot to kill.
(4) Show trials.
(5) Imprisonment without trial.
(6) Mass executions.
(7) The Gulag.
(8) Total government control of the media.

How many of these are you advocating?

You know, to enhance the effectiveness of the fence.

Fred4Pres said...

Giants beat Philly in Philly. Are the Eagles over?

God I hope so.

Cedarford said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...
"Sorry, DBQ, those factors are not extraneous to American citizen. The in-state tuition is not the ONLY factor on perks and bennies to illegals they are weighing."

Duh. To quote another com mentor.

Obviously you have not read any of my comments on this thread or other threads on illegal immigration.

Until you read what I write and stop putting words in my mouth, I have no further responses to you.


Pity you have difficulty remembering what you said an hour earlier:

Affirmative action is a completely different and extraneous talking point to the subject of whether in state tuition rates should apply to the children of illegal aliens

So no, I am not putting words into your mouth about a claim you said AA was a completely different talking point, and an extraneous issue in any debate about giving illegals the benny of in-state tuition. You did.

I stand on the fact that AA comes up in discussions about the various state Dream Acts. And many other matters like access to scarce grant and state loan dollars illegals may also gain preferential treatment in getting.
THese and other things like "an illegal alien magnet" are factors in the real State Dream Act debates.

Saint Croix said...

Texas is NOT paying the college tuition for the children of illegals.

Okay, I was sloppy. But Texas is giving illegal immigrants in-state tuition, yes? And the difference between in-state and out-of-state is a lot of money. At the University of Texas, it's almost $100,000.

16,000 people took advantage of this program last year. So if they were all going to U.T., that would be $1.6 billion dollars.

Thank God they're not all going to U.T.!

But it's almost certainly hundreds of millions of dollars.

And Texas is the only state doing this. The only one. So, again, are the other 49 states "heartless"?

Honestly, I'm not arguing against the program. It is a lot of money, but if Texas wants to do it, that's their call, right?

What I object to is Perry's political skills, which right now are inept. Instead of saying, "this is how we do it in Texas. If Texas is too liberal for you, I'm sorry." He should have laughed it off, or talked about federalism. Instead he's all, "you're heartless."

He was massacred in Florida because of his asinine comment.

He has a history of this. Saying the chairman of the Federal Reserve is "almost guilty of treason." Saying that Social Security is a crime and a "disease." Calling Republican voters "heartless."

It's political suicide.

He has to up his game in a hurry. That's all I'm saying.

edutcher said...

Lucius said...

@edbutcher: So you're expecting hard-hit African-Americans to vote GOP in '12? Just checking . . .

He thinks he's cute misspelling my name constantly.

rcocean said...

Yes, of course. Republicans have "Reaching out" to AA's ever since Nixon. Result: 95 percent voted for Obama. Of course, only 90 percent voted for Kerry and Gore, so maybe we can pick up that extra 5 percent in 2012 if we try really hard.

In both cases, all they have to do is stay home.

Again, the Demos are starting to worry about Herbert, not Jimmy, Obama.

But keep ignoring the facts about who's hardest hit.

And, if people distrust the polls, I have to say I do, too. But 44% approval among Hispanics and 58% approval among blacks, even if only ballpark figures, are a red flag.

That's what people like Kerosene Maxine and Elijah Cummings are trying to get across to GodZero.

And, obviously, they're worried this time it won't be just Zero who loses his cushy job if the White House changes hands.

David said...

bagoh20 said...
What's happening to Perry? Illegal imigration - it's that simple.

I'm conflicted about it,


End the conflict, bagoh. Immigration is a loser issue. The hispanic vote is the future of the Republicans, or there is no future.

Plus immigration is good for America--and illegal immigration is way down (though that's because there are no jobs.)

Open the borders, don't close them.

Cedarford said...

Joe said...
"& minefield" Cedarford. No American politician with any brains and a desire to continue to hold office is going to advocate planting minefields along the US/Mexican border.

=============
No kidding!! That is why I said that many things other nations have done to enhance their fences barrier to ingress attributes are off the table in America.

**********
Also Joe - " It takes less than 30 seconds to climb over the fence. How is that an obstacle?"

A double fence, jersey barrier in the middle takes minutes to breach unless you are talking a military style team like Los Zetas using explosives.
When you add sensors to the fence, you have instant alert and far more reaction time to get to the scene...which means the invaders have less time to gain distance from the breach point so you have a smaller search area.
NO security system is foolproof. The idea is barriers and defense in depth that compliment one another. Patrols and sensors can at times unpredictable to the Mexucans, pick up Mexicans staging for a breach in security barriers. A double fence takes 4 times as long to deal with than a single fence. Gangs out to smuggle aliens then have to pack breaching devices..sometimes a long distance from Mex population centers into the boonies then off road...where stuff like ladders would stick out to Mex cops not bribed, US drones, foot patrols.
The legal ramifications of destroying State/Federal property (fence) adds further deterrance. It makes the trespassing charges more consequential. Obviously, in criminal law, smashing through a dealers building wall and cutting through their barbed wire property zone fence to steal a couple of hydrid cars is going to be prosecuted harder than auto theft of a couple parked ones on the street.

Fred4Pres said...

What does Rickey Branch think about it? Ask Carol.

BJM said...

@DKWalser

Your examples prove that they do work very well.

I would posit that your conclusion is only valid if those building the fences are prepared to kill any and all who trespass to enforce them, we're clearly not.

The fence is only a metaphor at best as almost as many illegals arrive disguised as tourists or on student visas as those who risk the southern border.

For example, the Irish have long travelled this path as they blend easily and have a strong network.

There is also a robust pregnancy tourist industry that serves affluent, savvy Asians. The practise emerged as the reversion of the Hong Kong peninsula to the mainland approached. Tens of thousands of Hong Kongers, especially those of mixed race & ethinicity, gave birth to an anchor baby in the US and/or Canada.

Canada decided that the infusion of capital/energy would be a good thing and welcomed them to stay.

Indians have been known to take a similar path, primarily men come on work or student visas, arrange a marriage and give birth to an anchor baby.

I have a friend, a well-educated professional Eucadoran, long since naturalized, who arrived from South America via first class air. She was barely scrutinized, overstayed her visa and disappeared into the general population.

We mainly hear about poor Hispanic illegals crossing our southern border, but they are only the most visable tip of the illegal iceberg.

Building fences isn't the answer, but with high systemic unemployment and politically expedient pettifoggery, we're obviously not ready to have that national conversation.

phx said...

I just said more in a few words than The Ditz did in hundreds of rambling, mindless words. She is the personification of the warehouse appliance store credo: "How do we have these low prices? Volume, volume, volume."

Not once in the "hundreds of rambling, mindless words" did the "Ditz" raise herself up at someone elses expense.

Bender said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bender said...

Let me be clear --

I will not vote for Obama. I will not vote for Obama-lite. I will not vote for squishes. I will not vote for weasels who are more interested in taking the heat off of Obama and attacking the people of their own party when Obama is on the ropes.

I'm done holding my nose. Holding your nose in order to cast a vote merely enables the stench to continue.

You want Romney? You're going to have to elect him without my vote.

BJM said...

@C4

A double fence, jersey barrier in the middle takes minutes to breach

Um...I have just one word in rebuttal: wackamole.

We're not dealing with just remote stretches sagebrush and desert but major cities cheek & jowl on either side of a borderline that barely exists.

Lucius said...

@edutcher: Completely unintentional. You have my apologies. I'll blame the "floaters" but it may be time to keep the zoom on "120%"

I get "Lucious" if it's any consolation.

@BJM: your savvy Asian "anchor baby" droppers are the "tip" of the illegal iceberg, and the unskilled Hispanic droves are the giant underbody.

But for what it's worth: I have a gnawing contempt for people dropping anchor babies, so I'm happy to pick on the bright entrepreneureal spirit of our Asian infiltrators too.

Really you have the disingenuity of an op-ed. Hispanic illegals as the *tip*? Knock yourself out . . .

Carol_Herman said...

BLAZING SADDLES!

I knew I've seen all these white folk, before. And, I knew I laughed.

Then, I remembered.

Mel Brooks did the movie. (The sheriff whose brought in is the Black guy. Maybe, Cleon Black?) And, the obtuse and nutty governor was a takeoff spin on Nelson Rockefeller. Mel Brooks "touch" to make it seem so "republican."

Not that Mel Brooks votes republican, mind you.

Only that this stuff has all been shown to be very funny.

Carol_Herman said...

Yup. Mitt Romney's uncle GEORGE. From Michigan. Who was giving Nixon a run for the nomination in 1968.

So, George, who had been enthusiastic about our involvement in Vietnam, was asked a question.

George responded: "I was brainwashed."

The Romney's must eat a lot of crow given that the Bush's have had such big bites at gaining office.

We got Barbara's pearls when the elder Bush got to the White House, too.

But ya know what? Americans haven't seen the Mormon's women's underwear.

And, Mittens hasn't been asked if he's gonna give the poloygamist a pardon. (Jeffs?) Whose that guy that like screwing teenagers that he married married a whole bunch.

Women are just like grapes. (Sweet. And, sour.) Who can chew on only one at a time?

Phil 3:14 said...

Herman Cain didn't win!?

Republican racists.

Phil 3:14 said...

The best thing about Carol Herman's posts lately is she's stopped mentioning Trump.

I know, low hurdle.

campy said...

So, you're calling a successful businessman a "pizza guy"?

If his business is pizza, then ... yeah.

Carol_Herman said...

We lost Crack the Emcee!

Just when you need to hear from someone who really knows Blacks, in all their varieties ... he goes away.

Revenant said...

Straw polls mean very little.

Carol_Herman said...

Campy, "Funny Underwear-Man, and The Pizza Guy, is a GREAT TAKE on what's 'front-running' for the GOP ...

It shows they quite haven't figured out a Primary Method that works past pleasing their socially conservative base.

At least with the "smoke filled rooms" ... we got candidates the GOP country club supported!

sorepaw said...

Let's try keeping our priorities straight.

We're in an almost-depression from which no recovery is evident, Federal spending is through the roof, a debt crisis will be upon us nearly any time, and Obama and his allies have enacted Porkulus Senior, ObamaReidPelosiCare, and FrankenDodd.

Obama's out pushing for Porkulus Junior, he and his cronies are demanding tax increases, and now that Cap and Trade has failed, Obama intends to impose something similar by executive dictate. Not to mention executive nullification of the Taft-Hartley Act (as in the Boeing case).

You think fencing the Mexican border, when our almost-depression is already discouraging immigration from Mexico, is the most important issue?

If Obama's reelected, you're going to have all of the above and worse. And the Mexican border won't be fenced.

You think gay marriage is the most important issue?

Reelect Obama, and again you'll get all of the above and worse. And more states will be allowing gay marriage.

Make immigration and/or gay marriage the most important issue in the run-up to the Republican nomination, and you'll be effectively guaranteeing four more years of Barack Obama.

Cedarford said...

Carole Herman -

On "Blazing Saddles", one of my favorite scenes was a demogogue speech that was babbling nonsense that nevertheless, captured every conservative heart assembled. The crowd was not looking for logic or sense but someone that pitched to their "feelings! ooooh feelings!". Brooks was just showing how easy it was for a "Lonesome Rhodes" to manipulate.

Last election, you had whole audiences nodding their heads to John McCains incoherence. Even more whooping and hollerin' as Sarah Palin meandered and babbled and spoke in disjointed sentences that did not give any logic to what she was saying but hit all the red meat target words and phrases the audience hungered for. And smiled and winked and otherwise looked good saying what no one really knew what she said.

Liberals have the same problem - locked into body language, gestures, the absolute moral authority of black preacher cadence - minds shut off to the words save if some snark emerges or a pithy sound byte line comes up. Much of what Obama spewed was senseless garbage, but garbage delivered in perfect preacher speak, with perfect pauses and body language, with adroit elevation in tone when key points came up or when he was telling the audience how wise they were to Love The One and Embrace Hope and Change.


If you look at a clip of Gabby Johnson exorting the happless townfolk to man up - it is so fouled up you can't even quote it -it starts (gibberish) "I wash born here, an I wash raished here, and dad gum it, I am gonna die here, an no sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter." (Gibberish) a few words emerge (more gibberish) ..but the crowd wasn't thnking, only reacting to his tone, anger, gestures and body language.

They didn't have a clue what he said but went like lemmings to agreeing with him.

"
Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, but it expresses a courage little seen in this day and age!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNC3OciAF3w

Of course, the other part I like in that scene is right prior to the speech townfolk discussing that amongst Mongo's other depredations - he was raping cattle.

Carol_Herman said...

You know Harry S. Truman was told he'd never win a presidential race on his own. And, in the 1948 race. In October. Gallup did a poll that said Thomas E. Dewey (the GOP candidate), was gonna win.

Harry S. Truman jumped on board a train ... And, overall, he did something like 33,000 miles ... stopping at what was called "whistle stops." And, at each one a big crowd would gather.

"GIVE EM HELL, HARRY" was their call!

Working people. Blue collars. Nothing from the East Coast or the West Coast. Nope. The whole elite crew were backing Thomas E. Dewey.

And, let me tell you this! Thomas E. Dewey was the best dressed man! If it was an award for wearing the best fitting suits. And, gorgeous shirts & Ties. AND, A HAT! He would'a won.

Perry would win if Texas had no borders. And, we just re-named everything "Texas." Texans are notorious for electing schmucks.

Carol_Herman said...

Hey! When you're spotting Perry's "successful run" as a candidate ... just remember this:

DONALD TRUMP ALREADY CALLED HIM "JIM." Donald Trump said: "I know Jim. Jim is a friend of mine. And, he's a very good candidate."

YUP. I laughed.

Ned said...

Any of them can and will beat the SCOAMF...and start rebuilding the country

Carol_Herman said...

And, I put my bet on the other side of the table.

I think Europe is gonna develop a love of borders, ahead! So that they can toss the EURO. And, all of them will go back to using their own currencies.

"Borders," in Europe means your funny-money changes. It's not fences. But paper? Man, you need to carry paper ... even beyond your ticket ... when you're on a train shooting through different countries.

OH! And, they stamp everything!

Why are we waiting six weeks?

SO THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES CAN PRINT THEIR OWN MONEY! The EURO bombed. (Like a pinata.)

Obama just has to stay out of the debris path.

BJM said...

@Lucius

You omitted the key word "visable", which may be sloppy writing I admit.

However, when was the last time you read or heard a MSM story on illegals other than hispanics?

They are the most visable illegal population, thus the tip the illegal iceberg...as far as I am aware the tip of the iceberg is of the same substance as the unseen underwater mass...is it not?

Carol_Herman said...

I hate to break the "news" BMJ ...

But there are all sorts of Americans ... who aren't white. Or Black.

Even among the Asians ... there all all sorts communities.

How do I know this? I live in California. And, I know my ballot comes with an offer that it's available in 22 languages.

When you look at the GOP's social conservative structure, however; what's missing BESIDES fat old white people ... is everybody else.

Bruce Hayden said...

Yup. Mitt Romney's uncle GEORGE. From Michigan. Who was giving Nixon a run for the nomination in 1968.

There have been a lot of things said about Mormon family structures, but I think that if you checked a little more closely you would discover that George Romney, former governor of Michigan, etc. was Mitt Romney's father, and not his uncle. George Romney had turned American Motors around before being elected governor, and then unsuccessfully running for President.

One thing that you can say about the Romneys, as opposed to the Obamas, is that they understand business. George Romney turned around American Motors, and his son successfully managed a number of companies while heading Bain Capital, and, taking a leave from there, turned around Bain & Company, where he had learned about managing companies.

One thing that does give me some hope, if he (Mitt) were to be elected President, is that the "Bain Way", that he learned at Bain & Company, and then used successfully at Bain Capital, includes taking a knife to corporate fat.

One difference between Romney and Obama is that the former is known for diving into a project (i.e. company) and learning all there is to know about it, before deciding how to make it profitable. In short, Obama has shown himself to be intellectually lazy, and Romney, just the opposite.

Carol_Herman said...

40 years ago, I noticed, when going into a Jewish temple ... that I saw a lot of grey haired people. NO YOUTH.

So, when I observe crowds these days ... I also look around.

Does it feel like I'm shopping at Macy's on Herald Square? (Man, the whole world is walking by at some point), if you go there.

The GOP social conservatives? Not so much.

Man, you've really got to be full of it, if you think your vote counts across 50 states! And, if your "pick" is gonna get appreciated ... when in almost every case ... the incumbent has the advantage of office.

Carol_Herman said...

Mitt Romney is the "McCain" pick.

And, McCain couldn't get beyond 48%.

He wasn't picked by the GOP voters because they liked him, either!

Obama was actually picked ... because he was liked way more than Hillary!

And, ya know what McCain said that proved to be sheer lunacy?

He said the press loved him.

And, he'd get all of Hillary's voters.

Plus, McCain believed no white person would vote for a black person!

McCain's an idiot.

Now, let's say ... the GOP at their convenstion ... goes running out of ideas ... and appeal to McCain to give a presidential race another try. (His wife is loaded for bear.)

Would McCain "ask" Sarah Palin to be his running mate? Would she do it?

2012 is a race the GOP could lose. And, then they'll have to focus on 2016. With the same setup? With the same built in mistakes?

James said...

>>I have a friend, a well-educated professional Eucadoran, long since naturalized, who arrived from South America via first class air. She was barely scrutinized, overstayed her visa and disappeared into the general population.

We mainly hear about poor Hispanic illegals crossing our southern border, but they are only the most visable tip of the illegal iceberg. <<

And you don't see the difference in your own example? One is well-educated with skills that can contribute to the country. The other is poorly- or un-educated will little to contribute other than brawn.

edutcher said...

Carol_Herman said...

Mitt Romney is the "McCain" pick.

And, McCain couldn't get beyond 48%.


Actually, I think it turned out to be 53 - 47.

And that's with Sarah Palin bringing in all the undecideds.

Without her, it would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 55 - 44.

Fred4Pres said...

Who would Rickey Branch vote for?

Maguro said...

And you don't see the difference in your own example? One is well-educated with skills that can contribute to the country. The other is poorly- or un-educated will little to contribute other than brawn.

Exactly. Other countries, like Canada, base their immigration policies on selecting immigrants who can contribute economically, but for some reason it's racist for us to do the same thing.

Voluntarily absorbing millions of uneducated peasants just as the global economy is making their contribution of cheap manual labor less valuable than ever is insane. The people it hurts the most are poor, unskilled Americans, many of them "people of color".

Nothing would help the economic prospects of black America more than an immigration moratorium, but don't hold your breath waiting for our black leaders to suggest it.

traditionalguy said...

The Hispanic Panic is a disease that the "Conservatives" need to get over.

Either do it Gingrich's way and enforce the border, pass an English only law, and require American History courses on a path to citizenship and a fine.

Or be much sterner and do it the Texan way that Perry happens to stand for.

But ethnic cleansing is not a real option anymore, not unless you first repeal the Second Amendment and include an impeachment of Sonia Sotomayor to get your hysterical anger at a foreign culture sated.

Only a friend would tell you that truth.

chrisnavin said...

That reminds me of my uncle Saul, that mensch. When we bought the 1958 Buick Roadmaster, I'd never seen so much chrome in my life. Saul said there was enough room in the trunk for Aunt Irene.

Like Dubya did with Cheney's ghost when they went to bury socialism in the middle-east, there was enough room in the trunk.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, so Cain clearly is the dark horse headed for the White House.

All I got was this lousy T-Shirt when Eisenhower tripled the defense budget while Goldwater could only fiddle while Arizona burned.

Carol_Herman said...

It's really a "process problem."

The GOP elite is a very small group! Sure. If they had their druthers ... it would be Mitt's turn to run. And, he wouldn't have to be doing this clown act ... appealing to the right wing base.

(I'm sure, inside the elite's private club, a lot of fun is made of the retarded social conservative base.)

But at the last election ... when the HOUSE got lost by Pelosi ... This was due to the activities of the Tea Party. Their reward? The next day Karl Rove came out and told them to go drop dead.

And, (from his safe district, Boehner had the "time" inside the House ... that let him march into the Speaker's Office.)

If you think the social conservatives have "clout" in DC ... then you'd believe they have clout at the New York Times.

While the elites ... are watching this show ... and laughing up their sleeves!

Oh, and we've seen this "litmus test" since Reagan won back in 1980.

AST said...

Sorry, I'm biased by my high regard for Romney.

rcocean said...

Ever notice how Seven Nachos and Carol never camp on the same thread?

Coincidence?

chrisnavin said...

Clearly, there hasn't been this much monkey business since Reagan put the liberals to bed during the Governor's race in 66....

...and yet dwindling Orange County social conservatives dance on the grave of Chavez, they still keep the lettuce for themselves. They can't stand the heat, and they can't find the kitchen.

They need a Southern strategy, like Perry on steroids loose in the china shop of the NY Times new palace...paid for by Carlos Slim

And all the while the California central Valley dries up.

48% of Texicans can't be wrong

edutcher said...

Carol_Herman said...

If you think the social conservatives have "clout" in DC ...

That may be changing after the NY-9 election. The DLS was that a big factor in the Republican win was both The Weiner and Weprin were for same-sex marriage and the voters weren't

traditionalguy said...

Chris Navin...I checked out your Blog and was favorably impressed by the intelligence on display there.

Stay around for a while and enjoy The Professor.

CEO-MMP said...

I don't know. I just don't. I click on the comments and there's Carol "fucking stupid" Herman being fucking stupider than usual and I just can't stand it.

Not that anyone would miss me, but this stupid broad is really responsible for chasing people away from reading this blog.

Trooper York said...

Carol you ignorant slut!

George Romney was Mitt Romney's father.

You are a fuckin moron.

traditionalguy said...

CEO-MMP...Sorry you are so delicate.

When a commenter always wastes brain cells, then I scroll over their material and waste no more time on them.

Carol has not wasted my time except on rare occasions. Cedarford will always waste your time.

Just make a good argument on anything and you will be a blessing.

We do Global warming and Evolution on every other Tuesday.

chrisnavin said...

Tradguy. Thanks. The quality of commenters can be high here. I like Althouse because she used to be a bit of a hippie chick and way into the arts. But then she became a lawyer, and thought deeply, succeeded on her merits and used her mind and inherent gifts. She's in a relatively conservative position by experience.

And most feminists, progressives, unionites, excessive egalitarians, Lefties etc. hate her for it. She challenges their dream of making honey for the hive and often asks them to do the same. That says as much about them as it does Althouse.

garage mahal said...

CEO-MMP...Sorry you are so delicate.

Conservatives are a delicate and sensitive bunch.

Carol_Herman said...

edutcher ... how does a republican who appeals to people who did NOT want the "substitute" who thought he could drop into Anthony Weiner's seat ... mean that the CONSERVATIVES ... (which is a moronic term to use with Boehner) ... gain "clout?"

You know who lost clout? PELOSI!

Doesn't change the way the winds blow in DC ...

Other than PELOSI isn't like by anyone in da' House!

Yes. Da' House has 435 seats that go to "contestants."

Some got "in" through the Tea Party door.

Which is just my point.

If they want friends in DC they have to bring their dogs. And, then they hope their landlords allow dogs. Or they look for exemptions to be written into their leases.

The GOP is a "restricted country club."

Cedarford said...

Maguro - "Voluntarily absorbing millions of uneducated peasants just as the global economy is making their contribution of cheap manual labor less valuable than ever is insane. The people it hurts the most are poor, unskilled Americans, many of them "people of color"."

==================
Very well stated. And yes, Open Borders black democrat leaders are as dumb as a sackful of rocks. Add that libertarians are equally as stupid because hispanics want few of the things that liberarians want and are poised to be able to outvote them in a scattering of rural, urban, and suburban Western and SW communities.
The Catholics 1st and wealthy WASPs are straight winners - more Catholics and WASP elites live away from heavy immigrant communities and pay little for schooling, other social costs while sucking up the profits from cheap labor.


Jews and hispanics are more problematic. Jews as an owner class, benefit with fresh new wealth from what they siphon off hispanics in their businesses, as slumlords, as providers of stores and professional services. They also run the risk of having fellow Jews being shut out as America grows weary and adamantly angry about mass immigration. If the US goes into true Depression..if Israel then "falls" millions of Jews wanting into the US may find the "no vacancies, 23% jobless in America already" signs out.
Hispanics get more "brothers" but as numbers build, their own wages are being bargained down by owner elites and small businessmen - with jobs lost to fresher, cheaper immigrants who will replace them if they don't go along. Also, many are complaining that too many hispanics, concentrated, recreate many of the same conditions they left Mexico to get away from.

Cedarford said...

Tradguy - "Carol has not wasted my time except on rare occasions. Cedarford will always waste your time."

As long as we are trading jibes, you rarely have anything that displays anything besides pedestrian, dimbulb thinking I see in the more backward, less educated factions of the Southern Religious Right.

Sort of a Rick Perry-like figure here on this blog.

Joe Schmoe said...

Who would Rickey Branch vote for?

Doesn't matter because his vote would probably be cancelled out by Campanis Al.

Fred4Pres said...

CEO-MMP, when you see Carol Herman's name, just skim. Don't let her bother you. She is absolutely insane.

That said, I do enjoy watching Trooper go after her like a terrier against a rat.

Carol_Herman said...

What would have been better?

Let's say there was a "do over."

What, exactly, could replace the system of "primaries?"

I heard one suggestion where Iowa shouldn't go first.

But the only way you could do this ... would be to let other states grab dates off the calendar ...To go, so to speak, ahead of Iowa.

Who would, now?

In other words ... Americans are "old fashioned enough" ... to like doing things that have become "instilled," ...

Or is it "installed?"

Have we reached New Hampshire, yet?

Will a "Ross Perot" drop down ... and "declare" his interest?

I remember when so many Americans heard him on Larry King ...

And, across so many states ... people came out ... to be sure he got all the signatures he needed ... so his name would be on 50 ballots.

The elder Bush lost.

But he didn't go away! He retains his "place of importance" within the elite's tent.

While the Romney's always have such a tough time reaching the presidential nomination.

Heck, back in 1968 ... did anyone believe Nixon had a shot?

(Robert Kennedy, playing Hamlet, got "shot-shot.")

What I think we need would be a GONG SHOW.

If we just hand a GONG going off ... we could improve things a lot.

Meanwhile, I think the incumbent wins.

And, the GOP's hardest luck will be the circus that will start out ... probably with remnants from 2012 ... Trying to claim their place in 2016.

You know, I think the democraps are going to undergo a costume change ... even heading into 2012.

I think the democraps are gonna try to look like "cutters" ... Who cut out programs dear to the hearts of social conservatives.

While Europe goes back to inventing borders.

Oh, and ONE PARTY is going to recommend that the UN moves to Geneva.

America's Politico said...

The word at WH from the K-street sunday night dinner was that there is much sadness. They want Perry to keep at it. They want to have Perry as the GOP nomination. To WH, the idea GOP ticket is Perry and Bachmann. They will then win all states, including TX and MN.

The campaign to re-elect believe that GOP will disregard Romney, sooner or later. Cain is not going anywhere. The campaign believe that he is Thomas in the GOP.

Joe Schmoe said...

Carol Herman is rogue software. There is no other explanation.

Maybe she's Helen Thomas?

Sixty Grit said...

All our base are belong to Nepalese Politiho!

mrkwong said...

Rick Perry mistook the primary for the general election.

Out of all the myriad ways he could have pitched his state's immigration position, he chose the one guaranteed to hurt him the worst in the primary.

edutcher said...

Carol_Herman said...

edutcher ... how does a republican who appeals to people who did NOT want the "substitute" who thought he could drop into Anthony Weiner's seat ... mean that the CONSERVATIVES ... (which is a moronic term to use with Boehner) ... gain "clout?"

Not the candidate, but the electorate.

If dynamics like this keep popping up in the demographics of key districts, neither side will be able to afford to ignore them.

It wasn't what Turner did, it's what the Demos didn't do - and it cost them.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I think I've figured it out. America's Pollo clears tables at Ristorante Tosca and this is how he is privy to the USA's political future. To America's Pollo I say, keep up the English lessons! You are almost making progress. And those money orders you are sending back to Bucharest have bought your grandmother a fine hair-curling machine!

Peano said...

Nothing is over while the fat man remains silent.

Trooper York said...

What?

I was watching Boardwalk Empire.

Trooper York said...

Carol_Herman said...
Mitt Romney is the "McCain" pick. You know I how I know this? I was picking my ass and the nugget I pulled out had it written on it like a fortune cookie!

And, McCain couldn't get beyond 48%. I don't know why that is but I just like to read off numbers. Like my IQ. It's the same as my shoe size so it is easy to remember.

He wasn't picked by the GOP voters because they liked him, either! They picked him because they hated him. That's how I picked my first three husbands. It easier to put a pillow over their face that way.

Obama was actually picked ... because he was liked way more than Hillary! Plus he was black. They always pick black people when they are choosing up a side. Unless it is a spelling bee.

And, ya know what McCain said that proved to be sheer lunacy? And I know because sheer lunacy is my stock in trade. In fact I wanted to start a nylon stocking company with that name but the Chinks wouldn't let me open a factory because they said I was a lunatic.

He said the press loved him. What a dope. The press doesn't love him. Not like all the people here that love me. You really really love me. Like that Flying Nun twat Prince Fielder.

And, he'd get all of Hillary's voters. Because he looks like a middle aged woman. Especially in the cankles.

Plus, McCain believed no white person would vote for a black person! How do I know this. It was also on the fortune I picked out of the nugget from my ass. That how buster.

McCain's an idiot. Let me tell you something.

It takes one to know one.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

For all Perry has been said to be macho, he seems soft spoken to me. Maybe it doesn't matter. Santorum was so upset about what goes on at Texas colleges. Senator you live in PA; Republicans are for states as the laboratory of democracy. You haven't paid a dime in TX. As Perry pointed out, the policy he is defending was approved by 90% of the Texas legislature. You may calculate that the pattern for the yellow star is in the public domain and the RNC could help out and ship some to TX and all the schoolkids, or to be former schoolkids, who didn't get their documentation in TX could wear one to make sure they didn't get into school or free lunches. I know you could make it virtual and no PR problem, right, and the administrative problem would be worth the cost and bother. Do it in Pennsylvania first.

Illegal immigration is declining. 1.9 million were apprehended in 2000; 4000,00 last year and the system for interdiction is better. If you're illegal in TX likely you pay taxes. All taxes in TX are consumption oriented, sales or property. Under the table money doesn't have you escaping taxes. I've never seen an illegal on Medicaid. Being illegal is a bitch. You can't enforce any contract because you can't have standing in court.

As far as the vaccination issue, it's just the kids that don't have supervision that probably need it more. The issue should be about cost. Like the governor said, 'I don't see the deal, the problem with opt out.'

Carol_Herman said...

Uh, huh.

Idiots, I suppose, know one another. It's like a club.

The interesting thing about social conservatives is all the names they've run through, since the 1970's.

My special favorite was "Moral Majority." And, "born again."

And, yes. In some number of states, (probably less than 20) ... the religious avenue turns out to be the republican party.

(Of course, they accuse "liberals" of having a political religion. But not like this one!)

Carol_Herman said...

Take for instance, Michelle Bachmann. She went in whole hog against Perry. And, then she said "if she were president" she'd shut the lights off at the Department of Education."

While no one in this "religious church of politics" stood up ... and said: "Wait a moment, lady! Did you see what Dubya did to his idea that no child's behind should be left alone?

Keep it up. It's VERY entertaining.

Milwaukee said...

Sorry DBQ:
It isn't the fault of the children that their parents brought them illegally to the country. Why punish motivated students for their parent's acts. Wouldn't you rather encourage them to become citizens, get education, get jobs, become productive? It is just practical to encourage instead of punish in this instance.

If we reward the irresponsible parents then we will encourage further irresponsibility. Illegally dragging your minor children to another country, where the parents have few rights, and could be deported at any time is irresponsible. By Dream Acting the children we encourage other parents to do likewise. It does happen that parents make poor choices and children must live with those choices. My father always used to say "I lost $50,000 today." Somebody would ask why, and he would say "The price of sheep went up and I didn't own any." Now, since he knew how to make money and never did, I suffer. Dang.

We also can't blame the 3rd child of a welfare mom. But at some point we need to get that mom off welfare, so she stops having children so she can collect more.

Milwaukee said...

Recently a Chinese firm ran afoul of zoning laws in San Francisco. They would bring pregnant Chinese women to their illegally remodeled motel. The women would be near delivery. They would then deliver in this country, so that years later their child might claim American citizenship. This is absolutely nuts and needs to be stopped.

Milwaukee said...

No Child Left Behind didn't distinguish between legal and illegal children. The NEA and their ilk pushed the Dream Act so that illegal students would keep on working and actually graduate from high school. The illegals said "What's the point of graduating from high school? I can't even get in college if I do, so their isn't any point." Their not graduating then reflected badly on the teachers. Now that 0bama is loosening up NCLB, then perhaps that push will diminish. Do all those legal White parents appreciate the fact that if their child is a marginal college candidate, then a Dream Act student will get their child's spot in college? Still want to be "fair"?

Milwaukee said...

Dr. Zhivago quote:
"God rot all good men."

And, YES it is heartless to punish hard working students for their parents crimes. Too bad. Sometimes we need to be heartless and look at the bigger picture. We have encourage illegal immigration and we need to stop as soon as possible. Dream Act is more encouragement.

traditionalguy said...

Milwaukee...Your quote about "rot good men" was the bitter line by Komarovsky who was the antagonist that used and hated Zhivago for his daring to be a good man.
Do you suggest a country full of Komarovskys will solve all the problems with Hispanic immigration?

You are probably right, but what would happen to you when you need mercy?

Alex said...

White house targets Tea Party Republicans

Typical Alinsky tactic #13:

Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'


Basically make the entire focus on these 30 tea party Republicans and not on Obama's crippling deficits and regulations.

el polacko said...

@bagoh20, 12:15pm : i don't usually go in for the personal stuff, but i must admit that i laughed-out-loud at your assessment of c.a.r.o.l.
i've found that reading the comment threads here is much more enjoyable when i just scroll past 'her' random babbling. i feel better now knowing that i'm not ignoring an actual person.

Roger J. said...

erly in the morning here, but have scrolled thru the thread--I do rather enjoy Ms Herman's stream of concious posts, but trooper has already corrected her on the relationshp of George Romney to Mitt. If I may let me correct her on her cite of a gallup poll that said Dewey was going to win in 1948--It was actually a literary magazine poll that has become famous in research methods because it only sampled their readership which was overwhelmingly republican--I do enjoy Ms Herman--what she doesnt know she makes up, but fortunately for her she does it positively.

It predated the Pauline Kael fallacy (and in fairness, Ms Kael never said it)

Fred4Pres said...

Trooper York be careful, channelling Carol Herman is dangerous. Call it demonic possession or madness, you are playing with fire.

E.M. Davis said...

Maybe she's Helen Thomas?

Helen Thomas can't use a computer!

E.M. Davis said...

Trooper York be careful, channelling Carol Herman is dangerous. Call it demonic possession or madness, you are playing with fire.

This is true, before long, you'll see a Trooper post like:

"there were the 1917 Yankees ... the Butcherers' Row ... who carved up other teams like SAM from The Partridge Family!!!!!"

Steve Koch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
CEO-MMP said...

I'm not delicate, just tired. LOL.
I try to just skim or skip her posts but there's so damn many of them and they go on and on and on....

J.R. said...

681 votes is barely a sample in a poll.

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