September 7, 2011

Live-blogging the Republican Debate.

Come on! Hang out in the comments. We're doing this!

3:32 minutes into the show — Live-stream here... as Rick Perry gets the first question and a chance to tell us about the success in Texas. "I'm proud of what we done in the state of Texas." [Yes: what we done...]

5:13 — As Perry talks, Romney looks on. He's taller. He's got those graying temples and slight sideburns. He's wearing a blue suit... and maybe they all are. Romney gets the next question: "If I'd spent all my life in politics..." That's his angle: experience in the private sector. He's asked if life in government is a "disqualification," which he brushes off, even as he wants us to think it is. Romney looks calm and Perry a tad nervous. Romney is hot! And tan! Perry looks wrinkly and pasty. Romney stresses how hard it was to succeed in Massachusetts compared to Texas.

10:41 — Great interplay between Romney and Perry and Romney clearly won it. He needed to. Let's see if Perry comes back. Now, it's Santorum and then Cain. We're less interested in these characters. Sorry.

13:08 — Asked of Huntsman: "What does Romney not get about China?" "We are the most blue-sky, optimistic people on earth." And Utah beats Texas and Massachusetts.

14:37 — Michele Bachmann's hair is getting bigger and bigger. She says Obamacare is keeping businesses from creating jobs. It's killing jobs.

18:00 — Ron Paul is stressing out about regulations. We don't need the federal government to tell us if cars are safe. The consumer is smart enough to figure it out!

21:42 — On "Day 1," Romney will grant all the states a waiver from Obamacare.

23:05 — Perry is settling in, getting comfortable. Huntsman is coming alive too.

26:54 — Bachmann presents herself as the one who understands the legislative process: An executive order is not enough. And she's the one who will (somehow) be able to lead Congress to deliver up the anti-Obamacare legislation that is needed.

27:33 — Gingrich gets testy: "I'm frankly not interested in your effort to get Republicans fighting each other." Everyone on the stage knows "Obamacare is a disaster... it can't be implemented, it's killing the economy... Every person up here agrees with that." Nicely slammed. The media is going to try to get Republicans fighting each other, and he's calling their bluff. The Republicans are united: "a team." Well done!

32:00 — Rick Santorum believes "in the dignity of every person"... and he's not talking about abortion. He's talking about getting people off welfare and into work.

32:43 — What will Rick Perry do about the fact that white people are so much richer than black people? "Create an environment" where people who risk their capital will get a return on their investment. (He shrugs off the prompt to talk about race. He's not interested in that!)

 35:23 — Green jobs?! Let's have real jobs, says Romney.

37:52 — Ron Paul: "Mandates! That's what the whole society is about!" It's not just Obamacare. It's also Medicare. "We don't need the government running our lives." He can get you a gallon of gasoline for a dime! (Because a silver dime is worth $3.50... or something.)

40:28 — Hey, John Althouse Cohen is live-blogging. "Perry takes a gratuitous swipe at Ron Paul for quibbling with then-President Reagan. This is a transparent gambit on Perry's part to give more time to Paul and take time away from the stronger candidates."

47:21 — Nancy Reagan embracing Ronald Reagan's casket. Tears. It's the Reagan remembrance interlude. Ah! She's there. Hi, Nancy!

48:13 — "Karl Rove is over the top," says Rick Perry, referring to Rove's insinuation that Perry is too extreme in, for example, calling Social Security a "Ponzi scheme." Perry says he's "not responsible" for Karl Rove. Everyone knows Social Security is "a lie." Does that mean if we vote for him, we're giving up our demand that government meet its promise to us, based on which it skimmed off our wages for our entire working lives? We shouldn't concede that.

51:03 — Romney is asked how we can have a "candid conversation" about Social Security without "scaring seniors." Scaring seniors! Why don't younger people have a basis for demanding that the money they paid in be paid out when they are old? The premise of the question outrages me. Romney says Social Security is "not working" but the GOP nominee must be someone who will save Social Security, not abolish it. "We gotta do that as a party."

53:51 — Ron Paul is invited to attack Rick Perry. Paul lights into Perry for an executive order — as governor — forcing HPV vaccines on 12-year-old girls.  Bachmann follows on. (She's not getting much of a chance to show her stuff tonight.)

57:14 — "I will always err on the side of saving lives," Perry says emphatically, referring specifically to his order to vaccinate young girls against HPV, a sexually transmitted virus. He concedes the executive order might have been a mistake, but he's also kind of not sorry.

58:44 — After Santorum attacks Perry, Romney takes a conciliatory tone. Perry's "heart is in the right place." Let's attack Obama! He "doesn't have a clue!"

1:23:54 — Romney, are you in the Tea Party? He believes in "a lot" of it.

1:26:25 — Huntsman wants to pledge: "no pledges."

1:27:30 — Huntsman would bring the troops home from Afghanistan (and do the "nation-building" at home).

1:28:53 — Romney says we need a President who "loves America" (unlike Obama). Then Perry decides to go out of his way to give Obama some credit: He killed bin Laden... "and he's proven once and for all that government spending will not create one job.... and he kept Gitmo open."

1:35:35 —  Are you Republicans a bunch of crazy cranks? Which of these people on the stage are crazy? That's the question! To Huntsman. This gets back to what riled up Gingrich, at 27:33: The moderators want to turn the Republicans on each other.

1:38:30 — Perry uses the word "monstrous" a lot!

My overall impression? The moderators tried to provoke a war amongst Republicans, and Gingrich was the hero of the evening by calling them out. I thought Huntsman did himself some good, and Bachmann for some reason didn't find a way to stand out. The main focus was on Perry and Romney — in part because the moderators made that happen. And I think Romney looked better than Perry. As they say, he seemed presidential. He had a lot of poise and he made plenty of sense. Perry seemed rough, but it was his first go round.

377 comments:

1 – 200 of 377   Newer›   Newest»
Paddy O said...

Anyone have a link for live-streaming? I don't have cable.

Paddy O said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
phx said...

Paddy: I'm at msnbc.com where they say it will be live, but I'm not so sure.

Fr Martin Fox said...

I am for Reagan.

Paddy O said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paddy O said...

oh, it's now live on MSNBC... they were late in starting...

Shanna said...

Anyone have a link for live-streaming? I don't have cable.

This stuff is usually on hulu but I'm not seeing it at first glance.

mesquito said...

"Governor Perry, do you believe Jesus had a pet donsaur?"

Paddy O said...

Here's the link to MSNBC's streaming.

garage mahal said...

Perry starts off the debate by ignoring the first question and answering with something he wished he were asked.

mesquito said...

Perry message:

Obama sucks at economics.

Like selling ice cream to grade schoolers.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Garage:

That's what anyone in PR will tell you to do when interviewed. You plan ahead for what you want to be quoted as saying, and you say it over and over.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

Hey, I kinda like Huntsman!

Perry sounds very rehearsed.

Curious George said...

Hey garage, let me know if they talk about Illinois, who despite raising taxes and borrowing money (you know, what you wanted to do here), is going to lay-off thousands of Illinois State Workers and close state facilities.

And then let me know what it feels like to have your whole world view implode like a dying star...

Paddy O said...

Huntsman did sound good.

garage mahal said...

Would Herman Cain rename entitlements "toppings"?

phx said...

I liked Huntsman. I thought Paul was the worst so far. People who agree with Paul though probably thought he sounded great.

Paddy O said...

Newt, tl;dr

mesquito said...

Would Herman Cain rename entitlements "toppings"?

Heh. I like that.

Bender said...

Romney gets the next question: "If I'd spent all my life in politics..." That's his angle: experience in the private sector.

So, Romney's concerned that one who has had a career in politics might be brainwashed to think only a certain way, is that it?

Look, those who come from political families -- who was political when he was in his mama's womb -- don't need to be spouting such a false line.

And I don't even need to turn on the TV to see Governor Weasel's hair to know that it annoys me.

bobby said...

Who the heck is this Huntsman guy?

deborah said...

Newt is a drag.

Paddy O said...

"It didn't take too long for you folks to mix it up..."

Well, maybe it's because the moderators asked questions directing one against another.

Newt didn't seem real eager to attack Perry, and Perry's thumbs up looked goofy.

Paddy O said...

"get outta their bidness!"

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

I predict a Perry/Huntsman ticket.

Paddy O said...

Huntsman is a bit too orange to be president.

deborah said...

Huntsman reminds me of Buschemi.

Bender said...

Speaking of government coercion, Obama's Ambassador, when you were Obama's man in China, did you ever ONCE say something to the Chinese about coercive abortion??????

Kristopher said...

Huntsman and Romney have what I like to call a "creepy tan".
They look especially oily tonight, I think it's the lighting.

George said...

Stylistically Perry trounces Romney and Michelle.

ricpic said...

Who the heck is this Huntsman guy?

The Left's plant.

Paddy O said...

Hooray for Newt! "I'm not interested in your attempts to get Republicans fighting against each other"

Pastafarian said...

I'd say an Obama/Huntsman ticket is more likely, Chris.

George said...

I wish Gingrich wasn't so flaky.

Bender said...

They always took oily -- they both ooze politician insincerity, especially the Weasal.

phx said...

Nice try by Gingrich. The differences between GOP candidates are too striking to ignore. You can't just blame the media.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

Apparently, Hunstman is a Mormon. So, it will definitely not be Romney/Huntsman.

garage mahal said...

ObamaKKKare! Let's just repeal the words "health and "care".

Paddy O said...

Santorum speaking = bathroom break

mesquito said...

Why are we even bothering with this when in a mere 22 hours the President is set to reveal his secret, world-historic, paradigm-shifting jobs plan?

phx said...

Santorum getting a little passionate.

AJ Lynch said...

Newt did great there! The librul inquisitors needed to be knocked down a peg once more.

George said...

I like that Perry uses the word "Anglo."

marylynn said...

Okay, i'm going to make a comment you will all razz me on, but i cant help it ....

damn but that Romney is good looking

Paddy O said...

ooh, Twitter!

Maguro said...

Why are we even bothering with this when in a mere 22 hours the President is set to reveal his secret, world-historic, paradigm-shifting jobs plan?

I know, it's very exciting. There may even be something about high speed choo-choos in it!

Rose said...

If your Politico livestream isn't working this one might - there's also one at weaselzippers... ◼ http://conservativedailynews.com/2011/09/gop-debate-live-stream/

Paddy O said...

Romney is good looking. He should be the national spokesmodel.

AJ Lynch said...

The VP will not be one of these debaters. Gov. McDonnell, Marco Rubio, Paul Ryan, Chris Christie are all better suited to be VP and their states have way more electoral votes than Utah which is a guaranteed Red state anyhow.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

Do you think Bachmann could be the VP candidate, or would they not want a woman VP this time under the theory that it would remind people of Sarah Palin?

phx said...

Everyone of these folks has a much less annoying voice than Sarah Palin.

garage mahal said...

Everyone agrees that everything they will accomplish will happen on day one!

Paddy O said...

Huntsman's yellow tie really highlights the orange in his skin.

George said...

Christie won't be Veep. Cannot guarantee NJ and will overshadow nominee.

AB said...

They're all auditioning to be the running mate for Marco Rubio's vice presidential campaign.

mesquito said...

I like that Perry uses the word "Anglo."

The National Association for the Advancement of Saxon People has already faxed in its outrage.

Bob Ellison said...

Every one of these candidates is facing a bitch of a day "on day one".

AJ Lynch said...

Huntsman's writers gave him some good material. That material will be can be "borrowed" and will be used again and again in the next 14 months.

phx said...

Every one of these candidates is facing a bitch of a day "on day one".

Yes, they will all be watching the inauguration from their living rooms.

Paddy O said...

Perry comes off a bit like the annoying younger brother, with his preplanned zings and self-amusement.

AJ Lynch said...

Perry is out of sync so far.

Rose said...

Brian Williams is doing ok - I loved Newt setting everyone straight - if nothing else, maybe he can affect the TONE!

deborah said...

Yeah, Perry is suffering from high expectations fall out.

Bob Ellison said...

phx, I'd like to put up some money on that. Obama's a goner. I voted for him in 2008, but I'll never do that again. I'd vote for the worst drip on that stage before the guy in office now, and I'm not alone.

marylynn said...

I want to like Rick Perry, but his constant smirking is annoying me

AJ Lynch said...

Or this is the best he has which means he is like a shooting star and will fizzle out soon.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

Perry is certainly not acting like a frontrunner. He's taking a lot of swipes at the other candidates.

Paddy O said...

Perry got overcoached, I think. He really needs to take Newt's advice. Run against Obama.

garage mahal said...

Bachmann is a mom, and has twenty something kids, that's why you need to trust her on the importance of repealing health care. On day one!

George said...

You all are crazy if you think Romney et al are doing better than Perry.

phx said...

Bob Ellison, no I wouldn't put money on my prediction.

Jim O'Sullivan said...

George: you liked Perry saying "Anglo"? That leaves out a lot of whites. What about the Saxons and the Jutes? To say nothing of the Poles, Greeks, Norwegians . . .

"Anglo" is Tex-Mex for "white." I thought his use of the term indicated that he hasn't spent enough time outside of the Lone Star State. One word: provincial.

deborah said...

Bachmann's hair is reminding me of old school Gloria Borger.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Don't call me Anglo. I'm not English, I'm not Anglican.

mesquito said...

Windfall night for Olbermann. MSNBC's regular audience had to do somewhere, right?

Paddy O said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paddy O said...

Anglos!

MeeshalNoress said...

Perry is a disappointment - not ready for prime time. His simplistic sloganeering makes Sarah Palin sound like Thomas Jefferson ..

viator said...

Pollutico and PMSNBC are eulogizing Ron and Nancy. Enough to make you puke. Those people hated the Reagan's guts.

garage mahal said...

Monstrous lie. Ponzi scheme. This won't help in FL. Or anywhere for that matter.

phx said...

Romney looks like Ted Danson at times.

Paddy O said...

Spot on by Perry. People under 40 have very little expectation Social Security is going to be there for us.

Pastafarian said...

Fr Martin, don't call me white, I'm more pink. And I'm not from the Caucuses.

So what, pray tell, shall we call each other?

mesquito said...

Garage is right. Ponzi didn't garnish his victims' wages against their will.

Paddy O said...

Social Security rhetoric is basically the US sacrificing the next generation's future for the sake of senior citizen's votes.

It's like Iowa and corn subsidies

rcocean said...

Just listened to the SS question to Perry and the follow-up and had to stop.

What a stupid follow-up question! Correct question: "Gov Perry you said SS is a Ponzi Scheme - Why?" instead the reporter starts quoting Rove like he never he even listened to Perry's response.

Lame.

AJ Lynch said...

I give Perry bigtime props for not backing off his statement, which is a truthful one, that Soc Sec is a Ponzi scheme.

rcocean said...

Calling SS a 'lie' and 'Ponzi Scheme' is stupid.

NO wonder Romney is smiling.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

"I'm not responsible for Karl anymore."

Indeed not Mr. President.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Hmm, pander to seniors, or be realistic to young people?

Patrick said...

Yeah, Garage. I mean, for chrissakes, Bachmann took in 23 foster kids. What good is she? Must be a horrible person to do that. You're right.

J said...

Yo, una pregunta para los Mormonos, SeƱor Mittens and Kuntsman: Donde estan Las Placas del Oro??

Fr Martin Fox said...

Pasta:

Call me American; or, if you must, Euro-American.

I'll call you what you like.

MeeshalNoress said...

I think Perry is going to pull a gun on Paul ..

Dustin said...

I think Romney looked terribly weak for focusing on 'scaring seniors' with rhetoric that is frankly quite true.

Perry looked good to me for sticking to his guns. It looks like everyone is piling on Perry, frankly some of it's a lot of lies.

Rose said...

Whewww - It is Pummel Perry night - the moderator, Paul, Bachman... boom boom boom - he's right, he is the Pinata.

deborah said...

Paul is killing Perry on HPV...quid pro quo vp-promise? j/k, kinda.

rcocean said...

Calling it a Ponzi scheme is the lie.

AJ Lynch said...

Perry should firm up his position and ask why the soc sec system takes 12% of your earnings and yet it is broke.

Btw- Perry was shrewd- I suspect he will get the attention of a lot of 20-40 year old potential voters.

Pastafarian said...

Rcocean, is it also untrue? Or just imprudently honest? Because I'd say the time for feel good bullshit was over about four trillion dollars ago.

rcocean said...

Palin was smart to stay out this 3 ring circus.

Paddy O said...

Once again, we're shown the reality that while Newt has good ideas, he can't get anyone to follow him

AJ Lynch said...

I was right- Perry obviously got Lyssa's attention!

mesquito said...

Okay all you smartypantses.

How is Social Security not a Ponze scheme?

AJ Lynch said...

I bet Prez Obama is watching the debate....and asking someone what a Ponzi scheme is.

phx said...

"This President's a nice guy. He doesn't have a clue on how to get this country moving again."

Why did he say that Obama's a nice guy do you think? Just a slip, or does he believe it?

rcocean said...

PastaF,

Get rid of the SS wage cap on payroll taxes and SS will be solvent for the next 30 years.

Case close.

SS is a simple money transfer program & easily fixed.

Pastafarian said...

Fr Martin: "I'll call you what you like."

OK, I prefer "Admiral Turdhammer."

Matt said...

Perry said Texas has more uninsured than any other state because the federal government isn't letting us cover everybody. Ummmm what?! Awesome crazy...

Paddy O said...

protect people like they protect money?

Okay, I for one do not want to be put in a bag, shuttled around in an armored car and carried by armed men just to get on an airplane.

Maguro said...

Why did he say that Obama's a nice guy do you think? Just a slip, or does he believe it?

Don't think that saying someone is a nice guy is a compliment. It's a putdown.

AJ Lynch said...

Mesquito:

Because it's all safe and sound in a lockbox holding very very valuable govt bonds written in fancy fonts by some ancient scrivener or some such bull. Oh and I left out the part about the full faith and security of the US guvmint. Heh.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I was right- Perry obviously got Lyssa's attention!

I'm 31 years old. Anyone in my age cohort who's informed enough to be paying attention to this contest knows that they're being scammed on SS. I strongly prefer Perry's response.

phx said...

"He's a nice guy" seemed like weak putdown by Romney. Maybe it didn't to others though.

Pastafarian said...

Rcocean, it's billed as a retirement program, but you're right, it's an investment that pays out what it takes in from new participants; or, in other words, a ponzi scheme by definition.

Paddy O said...

"Let's fix..."

The trouble with this is that the bureaucracy is so entrenched and able to engage in passive resistance against any reforms. They can wait out the administration, so they won't change a thing unless a massive change is made.

AJ Lynch said...

I did too Lyssa! Perry is not backing off because he recognizes soc sec scheme is a critical issue and will affect every American's income security [or insecurity] in a huge way.

Paddy O said...

lyssa,

I'm 36, and I agree.

Solvent for 30 years? That's not helping people of my generation.

No one I know of my age or younger, no one, has absolutely any expectation SS is going to be there for us.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

If you end a soliloquy with "let me tell ya" then fuck you.


wv: reags

...

mesquito said...

Perry reads Iowahawk, obviously

wv: copygorg

Paddy O said...

"I don't think you're ever going to reform the present bureaucracies"

Hey, Newt agrees with me.

J said...

Gentlemen, and Miss Bachmann: Who is your favorite leading Nazi officer, and why? Mr. Romney, we start with you. 2 minutes.

Paddy O said...

Oh sure, bring the latino guy to talk about immigration.

garage mahal said...

Uh oh. Telemundo in the house.

edutcher said...

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I was right- Perry obviously got Lyssa's attention!

I'm 31 years old. Anyone in my age cohort who's informed enough to be paying attention to this contest knows that they're being scammed on SS. I strongly prefer Perry's response.


Lyssa, anybody of any age has to be worried about Social Security. Disability goes belly up in 7 years, Medicare 6 years after that, and Social Security 8 years after that.

At least, that's what the trustees said this year.

How many years they advance the drop dead dates (Medicare was advanced 5 years this year) next year will be interesting to see.

So Perry wanting to talk about this now makes sense. and we'll see how many sensible people there really are in this country.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Solvent for 30 years? That's not helping people of my generation.

And we're the generation currently getting screwed by the Obama economy!

mesquito said...

Say, why don't MSNBC and Politico want to talk about jobs and the economy?

George said...

Perry called Obama an "abject liar"!

Trooper York said...

Hey Leo where do nice guys finsih?

Paddy O said...

We need a fence, and crabby guys to shake their fists at anyone trying to get on our lawns.

Paddy O said...

preach it, Lyssa!

Paddy O said...

Newt, "I did some stuff 25 years ago.."

Pastafarian said...

J: " Who is your favorite leading Nazi officer?"

Stauffenberg. Yours?

Revenant said...

Why did he say that Obama's a nice guy do you think? Just a slip, or does he believe it?

Presumably he's appealing to the third of Americans who think Obama is doing a terrible job on the economy but don't actually dislike him.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Ooh, Obama's either a liar or a moron- Perry's the only one who will say that!

- Lyssa

AJ Lynch said...

Paddy O:

"Oh sure, bring the latino guy to talk about immigration."

I think Joe Boxer will be on later to ask the old "boxers or briefs" question.

And Trooper will appear and ask "Jets or Giants"?

garage mahal said...

Bachmann standing on a platform

J said...

We'd now like to get a bit personal, gentlemen and Miss Bachmann. Your wives (and husband, Miss Bachmann): what makes them happy? Are you strictly missionary types, or do you and your partner enjoy.. doggy style sex at times, or other types of kinky fun, perhaps with....sexual toys or various forms of technology. 3 minutes. Miss Bachmann, we start with you.

Freeman Hunt said...

I'm 31 years old. Anyone in my age cohort who's informed enough to be paying attention to this contest knows that they're being scammed on SS. I strongly prefer Perry's response.

Agreed. Also 31 here.

Matt said...

I'm beginning to judge people as rather stupid who think Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. It's not. It is a Pay-As-You-Go System. Very different. Anyone with a modicum of common sense and math skills should know the difference. It does not require a doubling of participants every time a payment is made.

If they want to end it because they don't like the concept behind it than that's fine. Let's have that debate. But don't label it something it is not.

Robert Cook said...

Anyone who says Social Security "isn't working" is lying, straight up.

Anyone who says Social Security shouldn't be abolished, but "must be saved" is working for the financial elites to take that money from those who dearly need it to stuff into their own ermine-lined pockets.

Fuck these miserable lying thieving scumbags with a splintery table leg.

John said...

Re Social Security:

It is a Ponzi scheme in the sense that the people receiving the benefits are not the people funding the benefits. It depends on a pyramid of more people paying in than taking out.

Lyssa:

I was 19 in 1967 when I went in the Navy. In Basic Training we had a morning about pay and benefits and got a long lecture about how SS was insolvent and we would never see any benefits from it.

Here it is 45 years later and we are still singing the same song.

Social Security is a "tax". Social Security payments are welfare. It is no different, technically, from something like food stamps. The govt taxes some people, via income taxes, to fund the food stamp program.

To say SS is going to go broke is like saying that the Army, or the FBI, or Food Stamps or any other govt program will go broke.

It can't. It probably won't. Arguing about its solvency is a smoke screen.

John Henry

Freeman Hunt said...

At this moment I despise Obama because the policies he favors have had a huge affect on our household income.

I think I would like him fine if he were just some guy I met at a dinner party.

Bob Ellison said...

Alas, Huntsman is the smartest, best person on the stage. Legal immigration system broken. Do away with corporate income tax. Gosh. The electorate cannot understand such concepts.

Paddy O said...

"Pay-As-You-Go"

We pay, they go.

The money isn't sitting somewhere waiting for me. It's going out right now, to someone else, at a greater rate than is sustainable.

Cedarford said...

Bender -

Bender -

"So, Romney's concerned that one who has had a career in politics might be brainwashed to think only a certain way, is that it?

Look, those who come from political families -- who was political when he was in his mama's womb -- don't need to be spouting such a false line."
===========================

Both George Romney and Mitt Romney started in private industry and only embarked into politics much later in life.
Two people in office in one family, both having no involvement in government until later middle age, does not constitute a "political dynasty where kids are immersed in politics from cradle onwards."

Both Romneys were very successful in business and during their times as state governors.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Bachmann standing on a platform

Is she? Is that OK? Seems fair, I guess. I'm the only female attorney at my firm, and we just did a group picture for a pamphlet, and I was shocked at how short I looked (I'm average for a female, and only one of the men is partcularly tall); I half-joked that I would stand on a box next time. Is that weird?

Freeman Hunt said...

It does not require a doubling of participants every time a payment is made.

It absolutely requires an increasing number of people to be paying into it. It doesn't work at all without that.

Paddy O said...

"To say SS is going to go broke is like saying that the Army, or the FBI, or Food Stamps or any other govt program will go broke."

Or the postal service!

rcocean said...

Shorter Ron Paul - I'm against illegal immigration but I'm against doing anything to stop it.

And Legal Coke & Pot for everyone!

AJ Lynch said...

Us old guys must be doing something right when we have a few hot 31 year old groupies hanging around here. [And pro athletes thought they got all the women!]

RebeccaH said...

What will Rick Perry do about the fact that white people are so much richer than black people?

Really? Bill Cosby, Oprah Winfrey, Colin Powell, Condileeza Rice, Maxine "everybody's bank but mine" Waters, Charlie "What? Taxes?" Rangel, Barack Obama himself not to mention Michelle, every well-known black actor and sports figure in America, etc., not to mention Herman Caine, and all the other black people who've managed to rise to the top and do well for themselves.

Apologies for including Waters and Rangel, who did it the Mafia way. Also for including Barack Obama and his wife, who did it the intimidation/affirmative action way, which, after all, wasn't illegal.

Mark O said...

Freeman, you're just too nice. If I met him at a party, I'd sit with my snarky friends and make fun of his ostentatious posturing, and then be angry when he took home some dopy, believing chick.

That, is exactly what happened in the election.

Pastafarian said...

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors, not from any actual profit earned by the organization, but from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors."

I don't see anything there about "doubling," Matt. But then, I'm just stupid, with poor math skills. I knew I should have majored in sociology instead of pure math, so that I'd have your l33t math skillzz.

rcocean said...

Huntsman would make a great Presidential Candidate - for the Democrats.

He's in the wrong party. But how can you argue against a guy who polls 1 percent.

Revenant said...

Anyone who says Social Security "isn't working" is lying, straight up.

If by "working" you mean "primarily serving to transfer money from poorer Americans to richer ones" then, yes, it is a roaring success.

Otherwise, not so much.

John said...

Originally, SS was supposed to be an insurance program. Something like Obamacare with mandatory purchase of retirement insurance or pension.

It was a big constitutional issue. There is an interesting story, told by Frances Perkins, posted on the SS website, that she was told to make it a "tax" because govt clearly has the power to tax.

Ironically this came about because of a "Tea party"

http://www.ssa.gov/history/tea.htm

"At one point in the afternoon Secretary Perkins found herself seated next to Justice Stone, and in their small talk he inquired as to how her work was going. The Secretary freely admitted they were stuck on the Administration's new Social Security bill, and were uncertain on what basis the new program should be founded. Upon hearing this, the Justice looked around to see if anyone was listening, leaned over to her, and putting his hand up to his mouth, whispered, "The taxing power of the Federal Government, my dear; the taxing power is sufficient for everything you want and need." The Secretary excitedly returned to her staff and announced she had made up her mind, they would base the new program on the government's power to tax."

John Henry

lyssalovelyredhead said...

It is a Pay-As-You-Go System.

Are you serious? It's a pay as a bunch of other people go system, and there are more of the other people then there are to pay. Do you really believe that it is fiscally sound?

Robert Cook said...

"If they want to end (Social Security) because they don't like the concept behind it than that's fine. Let's have that debate. But don't label it something it is not."

They have to lie because the American public overwhelmingly is happy with Social Security and doesn't want to lose it; the public can only be coerced into accepting radical changes to Social Security if they can be scared by lying motherfuckers into believing that the program is about to disappear if a drastic fix isn't made. It'll be "fixed" alright.

For Perry or Romney or any of these other wretched cretins and mediocrities to tell the truth about Social Security, especially about their frank dislike of it, will not win them any support and they know this. They are liars and con men to a man.

AJ Lynch said...

John Henry:

We had a continuosly growing population and work force since 1967. And the tax rate went from 7% to current 12% since then.

A Ponzi scheme works as long as you can coninually bring in more and more new suckers er contributors. Or you can regularly increase the tax rate and reduce benefits etc or you could privatize it so no one can spend your money.

Our present soc sec system maybe might survive if the population and work force never ever dipped and longevity never increased.

Freeman Hunt said...

If by "working" you mean "primarily serving to transfer money from poorer Americans to richer ones" then, yes, it is a roaring success.

Yes, and same for Medicare.

John said...

No, Paddy O.

The US Post Office could not have gone broke. The US Postal Service certainly can. It is required to be self-supporting. It gets very little subsidy from govt and tax revenues.

Yes, there are some subsidies such as loan guarantees and low interest rates. But it is generally required to operate at a profit.

There is no such requirement for any govt department.

John Henry

deborah said...

Would Romney be an improvement over Obama? Serious question.

Paddy O said...

John,

I wrote postal service...

so...

AJ Lynch said...

Cookie & John Henry:
If you could start from scratch and re-design soc sec- what would it look like? Today,we all throw our money in a hat and the Beltway thieves determine what you get back.

But what should it look like? If we can agree on an answer to that question,we can find a way to transition the current system to what it should look like.

Robert Cook said...

"Really? Bill Cosby, Oprah Winfrey, Colin Powell, Condileeza Rice, Maxine
'everybody's bank but mine' Waters, Charlie 'What? Taxes?' Rangel, Barack Obama himself not to mention Michelle, every well-known black actor and sports figure in America, etc., not to mention Herman Caine, and all the other black people who've managed to rise to the top and do well for themselves."


Damn, you laid out the motherfucker with that retort! You have just named every black person in America...they're all rich (and likely thieving) actors, athletes, politicians, CEOs or public figures of one type or another!

deborah said...

Did Perry just pronounce props, propes?

rcocean said...

SS is pay as you go. There is no "Lockbox". For almost 25 years SS took in more than spent. Now because of the Baby boomers that will be reversed - unless you get rid of the SS wage cap. Or you borrow 1 percent of GNP to cover the Gap. No big Whoop.

But once the Boomers start dying off, it'll be back in balance -regardless.

Its not going "bankrupt" & its not a "Ponzi Scheme". Read the SS trustee report.

J said...

Now, to entitlement reform: how soon could you put an end to social security, health care, education, and other unneeded entitlement programs? Mr Perry. 2 minutes

Paddy O said...

"There is no such requirement for any govt department."

Well, Social Security may not need to operate at a profit, but it does require enough people paying in to pay for the people getting it out.

It can be propped up, but at a certain point the costs get prohibitive, and that's going to happen without substantial changes. With an aging population, it's getting closer and closer to a 1:1 ratio, which means increasing taxes more and more in order for one person to give a living income to another.

John said...

AJ Lynch,

You are quite right about SS working if there is a growing work force and economy.

I disagree with nothing in your comment.

I was merely trying to point out that SS has been "going broke" since at least 1967.

On the other hand, since it is a tax in/welfare out system, it can never go "broke" in any meaningful sense of the word. It can get to expensive to continue. It can't go "broke".

John Henry

MeeshalNoress said...

Oh, Dear. Perry is an idiot. I've never supported Romney before, but he seems the most comfortable and electable ..

Paddy O said...

The Babyboomers will never die off. They're too selfish to allow that to happen.

Hugo Chavez said...

Why, again, is New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson not invited to this party?

bobby said...

Huh.

- Huntsman is smooth, polished, and says absolutely nothing.

- The mods really don't like Texas, do they? "Gov. Perry, we can all agree that your state sucks eggs and starves people, so, why are you here?"

- Romney wins if this was debate. Gingrich wins if this was a philosophical discussion. Perry wins if this was a contest to attract smaller-government ideologues. Paul wins if everyone got to take a drink whenever a response made them think "huh?"

Mark said...

"No Pledges" sounds a whole lot like "No Labels."

Squishes for the Advancement of Squishes.

Paddy O said...

Why is Huntsman getting so much more time than Bachman?

Robert Cook said...

"Would Romney be an improvement over Obama? Serious question."

A serious trick question, you mean.

There isn't one motherfucking motherfucker in Washington who is likely to run for President who will be any better than tub 'o turds Barry Obama.

They're all lying whores, eager to aggrandize their own power, all with zero interest in actually serving the public good.

John said...

AJ Lynch,

Basically, it would be a program where you put money in, it accumulated compound interest over the years, and when you reach 65 (70?) you start drawing down the nut + accumulated interest.

If you die early your nut goes to fund people who live longer than they should.

An actuarily sound insurance plan, in other words.

Details are a bit more complex but that is basically it.

John Henry

rcocean said...

The Rich are scared shitless that the SS Payroll wage cap will be raised from its current $100,000. Currently a millionaire pays the same SS Payroll tax as someone who makes $100,000. The millionaire pays $7,000 on $1 million of salary, while someone who makes $100,000 also pays $7,000.

That's why Republicans are constantly attacking it.

Matt said...

lyssalovelyredhead

Yes, but EVERYONE knows SS won't pay out past 2050 or so. It says so right on the SS statement that gets sent to every American each year.

When Perry says SS is a ‘monstrous lie’ he is banking on the fact that no one reads the SS statement. He acts like the SS admin is lying. They aren't. They full well know it needs to be fixed.

How to fix it? Raise the maximum taxable earnings from $106,800 to whatever works. Reagan signed a bill raising the deduction percentage once upon a time. You could do that as well.

Maybe people won't like it. But maybe people over the age of 65 in 2055 will need to eat....

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I appreciate that Santorum pointed out that Obama bowed to Euro-pressure in the Libya issue. Not sure how that squares with his anti-isolationism stance, though.

bobby said...

Oh my god.

Huntsman talks about 98% of scientists supporting AGW.

Screw him. He cannot win. We cannot allow him to win. He's either blatantly stupid, or a blatant liar.

arbat said...

Really strange take on Social Security.

Sure, yes, we did pay money into the system. However, the politicians we elected did spend that money already.

We SPENT that money.
It is not there.

How can you possibly think we are entitled to get something else out of it? WHO is liable to pay us that money?

You can blame the government, you can blame the people who voted for this, - but you can't possibly ask the next generation to recompense you!

John said...

BTW:

I've done some back of the envelope calculations on my personal SS account. If you take what I have paid in since 1965, grow it at 5% compound interest as if it were in a bank account, it would pay for 20-25 years of benefits at the current levels.

As I say, that is a very rough, back of the envelope calculation I once did 5-10 years ago.

John Henry

bobby said...

And the moderator rips Perry's intelligent response to the AGW crap by asking for specific references to scientists that prove AGW is false? What an ass.

Robert Cook said...

"If by 'working' you mean 'primarily serving to transfer money from poorer Americans to richer ones' then, yes, it is a roaring success."

No, I wasn't referring to the various schemes by those wishing to "fix" Social Security...I was referring to SS as it exists.

Maguro said...

Currently a millionaire pays the same SS Payroll tax as someone who makes $100,000. The millionaire pays $7,000 on $1 million of salary, while someone who makes $100,000 also pays $7,000.

Yep. They are both entitled to the same payout, too.

Robert Cook said...

"At this moment I despise Obama because the policies he favors have had a huge affect on our household income."

Then you have no business sniffing around the slimy likes of the Republican President wannabes...they'll all carry on with the same sort of policies...only much harder.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Yep. They are both entitled to the same payout, too.

But, but, that doesn't punish the rich person for being rich!

Bob Ellison said...

MeeshalNoress, "idiot" is a harsh term. Let's just say Perry is not the warmest butterknife in the drawer.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

"In order for the Republican Party to win" .... look down at my scrib notes .... "we can't be anti-science."

OHMYGOODGOSHTHAT WAS DIFFICULT TO FAKE; AS SINCERITY HAS BEEN QUOTED AS BEING BUT I AM DIFFERENT

garage mahal said...

Big applause for executions.

John said...

Forget who it was that complained about high income people (who may or may not also be "millionaires" having SS capped.

If they pay more in taxes, can they get more payout too?

John Henry

AJ Lynch said...

Johh Henry:
I agree with your distinctions as well. Too bad, our pols can't be as honest as you are.

Kirby Olson said...

Perry is like an old-fashioned sheriff. I like that. We need capital punishment.

BooMushroom said...

"rcocean said...
SS is pay as you go. There is no "Lockbox". For almost 25 years SS took in more than spent. Now because of the Baby boomers that will be reversed - unless you get rid of the SS wage cap. Or you borrow 1 percent of GNP to cover the Gap. No big Whoop.

But once the Boomers start dying off, it'll be back in balance -regardless."

Ah, but for those 25 years, all the money was spent elsewhere, and lifespans and medical costs and inflation are increasing. And borrowing 1% of GDP (on top of all the other borrowing) is kind of ... a "big whoop."

J said...

Oh dear, the Romneyite troll is on here with 2-3 names, and waving his flag for the LDS, free enterprise, and Mittens the magick moron--arguably the most right-wing candidate in the running. .

garage mahal said...

Perry says government never created one job. 300,000 in his own state prove otherwise. Not including his own.

Trooper York said...

Fr Martin Fox said...
I am for Reagan.

That's just because you performed the excorcism.

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