August 5, 2011

"Students Urged to Sell Kidneys to Repay Student Loans."

Hmm.

54 comments:

Oso Negro said...

Well, as long as it is between consenting adults.

Paul Zrimsek said...

A kidney that's been to UW-Madison probably doesn't have all that many miles left on it.

Calypso Facto said...

At the intersection of gov't student loans and gov't funded health care...

Bartender Cabbie said...

Or just don't pay them.

clint said...

Wow.

I strongly support a free market in human organs (with appropriate oversight).

I strongly support students paying off their debts.

And I still find Sue Rabbitt Roff's (what an awesome name) position to be extraordinarily creepy.

Ick.

EDH said...

Students should be able to sell their kidneys for tens of thousands of pounds to pay off university debts, according to a Scots academic. Sue Rabbitt Roff believes making it legal to sell the body part would boost the number of organs available to save lives and help students struggling with money.

I suppose a pay cut for "Scots academics" would be entirely out of the question, though.

DADvocate said...

Is this a modest proposal moment?

Amazing what academics will do to get their money. How about free college, just like the free health care they have? No loans, no problems.

MadisonMan said...

Don't go into debt. If you can't afford to go to college, do something else.

MikeinAppalachia said...

UK already tried that?

MikeinAppalachia said...

"Free college", that is.

rhhardin said...

The liberal controversy would be about selling other people's kidneys.

Fred4Pres said...

Kidney Donation: This is for the students who can't get a sugar daddy to pay for school for them?

Fred4Pres said...

I think Paul Z nailed the problem with kidney donation from our current colleges and universities.

Saint Croix said...

Clint, you lost me. If you strongly support a free market in human organs, why do you object to selling an organ to pay for school?

Would selling a kidney for a Porsche be less icky?

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I was under the impression that this problem had already been solved by the socially conscious British people.

Titus said...

Wouldn't it be just easier to put an ad on Craig's List and sell your tits?

The Crack Emcee said...

Or we could actually fix the system.

What to do, what to do,....?

TosaGuy said...

""We are allowing young people to undertake £20,000 to £30,000 of university fee payments. "We allow them to burden themselves with these debts. Why can't we allow them to do a very kind and generous thing but also meet their own needs?"

I understand that the Scots probably use "allow" a bit differently that we do, but the use of in this sentence is simply creepy.

EDH said...

"Well, the world needs ditch-diggers too."

Carol_Herman said...

You know, I have a feeling that these loans will become flushable ... as soon as someone says ... "I'm not the person who signed the loan."

Proove it?

If the credential isn't worth it. If the credential doesn't give you an income stream. Why sell a kidney?

In today's world there are homes where the banks holding paper ... have no proof they own your home at all.

Bad paperwork can ruin the whole barrel.

All we've done with our "edukachun" system is create something where you pass all barriers without learning how to read and write.

The day of the gimmick is over.

It's just a question of time when HUD, and "Ed-duck-cation" gets tossed away from the President's table.

Because? Because the Feds are gonna be shrinking budgets, wholesale.

Whose gonna talk about this? Donald Trump already is.

Lucius said...

Has "Never Let Me Go" been resubmitted as a policy paper?

Canuck said...

"Don't go into debt. If you can't afford to go to college, do something else"

How many people could afford medical school without student loans?

Student loans are a drag on domestic economies. Giving all of these twenty-thirty-somethings lots of loans with interest rates of over 6% isn't a great idea for an economy that depends on consumer activity.

Don't expect people with big loans to buy houses, cars, dishwashers, dinners out, ect. It's been one of the contracting factors in modern economies. Lots of baby boomers will need the next generation to buy their houses to retire.

But too many of the next couple of generations are burdened with debt. No wonder house prices are falling.

Canuck said...

"You know, I have a feeling that these loans will become flushable ... as soon as someone says ... "I'm not the person who signed the loan.""

Not in the modern USA political system. The banskers are going to get paid no matter what..

These loans aren't like any other loans - can't go into bankrupcy, ect. to get rid of them. The only way out of these loans is death. And if a parent co-signs - they will come after the parent in case of death.

edutcher said...

It looks like death panels aren't just for old people and kids with birth defects.

Dr Berwick and Zeke Emanuel must be in ecstasy.

The Crack Emcee said...

I have nothing against the idea of adults selling their kidneys - seems like a simple enough deal - but this is preying on young people.

Fen said...

Higher Education Bubble Alert

MadisonMan said...

Higher Education Bubble Alert

Exactly. It'll be very interesting when it happens.

Maguro said...

These loans aren't like any other loans - can't go into bankrupcy, ect. to get rid of them. The only way out of these loans is death. And if a parent co-signs - they will come after the parent in case of death.

Well, yeah, that's because other loans have collateral - the house, boat or car that you're borrowing to buy. If you go bankrupt and default on your mortgage, they come and take your house.

If student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, you'd be an idiot to pay them back. What would they do, take away your college degree?

Hagar said...

It used to be that you could serve a hitch in the military and get the G.I. Bill, which would just about pay for tuition and books, and you could flip burgers or whatever, to keep body and soul together while going to school.

Is not this option still available?

Calypso Facto said...

Is not this option still available?

Yes. But you might have to, you know, work for it.

clint said...

St. Croix: "Clint, you lost me. If you strongly support a free market in human organs, why do you object to selling an organ to pay for school?

Would selling a kidney for a Porsche be less icky?"

For me, the "ick" factor is in the idea that you take kids (17 when they're applying to colleges), load them down with debt, and then when they can't find work, tell them that there's no problem, they can just sell their kidneys to pay for it all.

There isn't actually any coercion at any point in the process, but there's something squicky about the totality of it.

It's what TosaGuy said about the creepy use of the word, "allow."

If we were to legalize the sale of organs, but only for the repayment of student loans, it really seems to put pressure on unemployed grads to sell their kidneys.

Without the explicit linkage, I'm all for people selling their kidneys -- saving lives and getting paid. And I'm all for people taking responsibility for their debts, and finding ways to make ends meet. It's the linkage.

For comparison, consider another popular form of selling one's body:

How would you feel if a prominent academic suggested that recent graduates having trouble paying off their student loans should be exempted from the laws against prostitution? It's a win-win, right? But squicky.

chickenlittle said...

Hmmm

Indeed. Nepharious, nier'do-wells.

Chip S. said...

Nepharious, nier'do-wells.

No stoners, please.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

There are other body parts that a college student could sell over and over and over without losing them. Why not promote that?

Amy Schley said...

‎1) If college actually prepared students for high wage jobs or was cost effective for the careers it allows, this wouldn't be necessary.
2) At 30K pounds/ kidney, I'd only need 4 kidneys to pay off my loans.
3) Are we sure we want used college student kidneys on the market? Talk about damaged goods!

SteveOrr said...

"Would selling a kidney for a Porsche be less icky?"

It would be if the Porsche salesman proposing the arrangement had a state-sponsored monopoly on automobile sales.

There is a case to be made for selling organs, sure. And I value my college education. But I'll take my health over my college diploma, TYVM.

In theory, a diploma offers people more opportunities. In reality, I'm self-employed & make my own opportunities.

I hope this ghoulish proposal encourages folks to encourage less traditional models of education. Self-education is still a possibility.

SteveOrr said...

wouldn't*

Chip S. said...

@AmyS--There's a sense in which blaming "college" for people graduating without useful knowledge is like blaming grocery stores for people buying the wrong foods. Nobody's forced to major in sociology, AFAIK.

chickenlittle said...

Chip S. said...No stoners, please.

Dude, it's beerstone. Not to be confused with beer stone.

Amy Schley said...

Chip S:
@AmyS--There's a sense in which blaming "college" for people graduating without useful knowledge is like blaming grocery stores for people buying the wrong foods. Nobody's forced to major in sociology, AFAIK.

Oh, I have no sympathy for the fluff degrees. My anger is directed to my law school. For $78K of tuition, one would think that I would know enough to be hired. But no ... I'm like a doctor who's graduated but not gone to residency, i.e. useless. I need those couple years of training to be able to get any other legal job. But unlike medicine, which has an established program of residencies, law just assumes that students will be able to find an employer willing to pay them a good salary to be taught how to do their jobs. That may have been true at one point, but the dramatic shakeup in the legal industry makes the notion ridiculous.

I borrowed on the assumption that the education would be a good investment, returning a profit to justify the opportunity cost. If I could acquire a job that paid 2007's median salary for my law school, it would do so. (Particularly if my husband's employer hadn't gone bankrupt halfway through school, adding living expenses to the tuition.)

Yes, some people go to the store and buy junk, but some people go to the pharmacy counter only to discover that they're selling snake oil.

Canuck said...

"Well, yeah, that's because other loans have collateral - the house, boat or car that you're borrowing to buy. If you go bankrupt and default on your mortgage, they come and take your house."

Sure, but credit card loans are all dischargeable in bankrupcy. Any idiot running up expensive trips to Europe, restaurants, or beer can discharge those loans.

And they do - in bankrupcy court.

But students are on the hook. Selling off a kidney to pay off loans might be a good idea for some of these younguns. The children of the 40s and 50s got a much better deal.For example, tuition was free or very cheap at many Universities in the 1950s/early 60s -- Ohio State for example. In contrast, places like Ohio State and Univ. of Wisconsin are jacking up tuition for students today.

Maguro said...

Sure, but credit card loans are all dischargeable in bankrupcy. Any idiot running up expensive trips to Europe, restaurants, or beer can discharge those loans.

And they do - in bankrupcy court
.

Right, but that also is why credit cards charge such high interest rates - to balance out all the deadbeats and still leave some profit for the bank. If student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, they would have to 1) Raise the interest rates to cover the increased the risk of default 2) Issue a lot fewer student loans. Not that either of the above would be a bad thing in my opinion, but they would definitely be unpopular changes.

jamboree said...

Wow. So they should sell off their health and youth because those that came before have destroyed the job market?

Just wow.

What about urging young women to sell their eggs or do a couple of pregnancies for some aging university careerist types? That'll take care of those student loans as well.

Or prostitution all around? Marry an old rich guy. Pimp out those young bodies folks. Time is the one thing the superrich cannot buy back for themselves - they need YOU as a surrogate. It's just generosity - kindness - contribution.

Give it up.

What? That's why you got an education you say? So you wouldn't have to do things like that?

bagoh20 said...

As someone without a college diploma, I can tell you for certain that not having one is no detriment whatsoever to financial success, although the cost of a degree in time and money and organs is a significant loss of resources...irreplaceable resources.

Rethink that whole job training thing called "college". Maybe you don't want to get a job. You might prefer to make them, and give them to college grads who were busy jumping through hoops while you were building something real.

Canuck said...

"Right, but that also is why credit cards charge such high interest rates - to balance out all the deadbeats and still leave some profit for the bank. If student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, they would have to 1) Raise the interest rates to cover the increased the risk of default 2) Issue a lot fewer student loans. Not that either of the above would be a bad thing in my opinion, but they would definitely be unpopular changes."

Private student loans (vs. federal) have quite high interest rates, and yet they are not dischargable.

I would be very supportive of a lot fewer student loans.

Politicians & higher education instituitons are using huge student loans to keep the system running while jacking up tuition. It's too easy to increase the $$$ for student loans, while ignoring the bigger problems.

Meanwhile high school students are not given enough financial information about what it means to be on the hook for this type of money. In fact, 18 year olds are urged to sign up for these loans by adults, educational advisors, parents, ect.

bagoh20 said...

Imagine how much you would know if you spent as much time self-taught at your own pace and following the bliss of learning. With the internet, a person with the self-discipline to do that would far out-learn a college attendee.

I expect that such people will soon be the primary movers and shakers in our society. In fact, many of the current pushers of the envelope are college drop outs. They dropped out for the same reasons that many in the future will never start: poor return on investment. If you can afford it though, I would go for the parties... and the chicks, oh yea, the chicks are definitely concentrated like fish in a barrel.

KenK said...

Nah. Let's keep exploiting third world types in India, China and Mexico. The give up major organs much cheaper. Odd how you can't sell people but you can sell their parts. Go figure?

Synova said...

Why not?

And female students could rent out their wombs.

If nothing else, it would illuminate the extent of debt that people take on without a whole lot of thought about it. Why is debt and interest so benign and selling an organ so outrageous?

And, wow, could you imagine the student who sold an organ sitting in some class where the professor is on about some random baloney, or having to take a "studies" class or mandatory PC garbage, and sitting there thinking they sold a kidney? They wouldn't do it. The cost would be too immediate and the BS too obvious for someone to put up with it.

Chip S. said...

And female students could rent out their wombs.

Or sell their eggs.

chickenlittle said...

KenK wrote: Odd how you can't sell people but you can sell their parts. Go figure?

You can always "part-out" an older car for more than it's worth in toto--unless the whole thing has been redone.

_____________
wv = "askin" She'll be around again, askin' You watch.

SukieTawdry said...

Jack Kevorkian long advocated for people being able to buy and sell organs and other body parts as a way to make more available. He would have required that people above a certain income or net worth who were buying, say, a kidney would also have to buy one for someone who couldn't afford it. It's not an entirely ridiculous idea.

KenK said...

Why not just change the fucking bankruptcy law? If the students can bail on education debt just like any other kind then lenders will scrutinize the potential student a little closer. That's what market principles would seem to intuit. So the 19 year-old who wants to borrow $100K to study philosophy, women's studies, anthropology or English Lit will likely get the the thumbs down. But the guy or gal who wants $5K to become an x-ray tech or IT technician will go right through. Just a thought. To me that's real social justice in policy.

Canuck said...

"But the guy or gal who wants $5K to become an x-ray tech or IT technician will go right through. Just a thought. To me that's real social justice in policy."

agreed.

A little bit of scrutiny would go a long way in these situations.