August 16, 2011

The Nefarious Kansas Preacher provides 'Some observations and thoughts on my experience at the Madison 'Sing-a-long.'"

Our  preacher friend — who comments here as "caplight" — wrote (unrequested) his account of the incident that took place on August 12, 2011:
1. I came to observe and to talk to the protestors. Why? First of all, I wanted to see things for myself. I appreciate the yeoman’s work that Althouse and Meade have done to document much of the events in Madison these last six or so months. But I am curious and want to see things for myself. My location this past week afforded me a ready opportunity to observe and draw my own conclusions. Second, I think of Wisconsin as somewhat of a ground zero for the future of public sector unions and for an emerging discussion of the proper scope of government within the context of fiscal responsibility. I wanted to speak to those who believe they are fighting the good fight on behalf of a certain vision of the future. I wanted to hear it from regular people not from union executives and politicians.

2. I am not untouched by the predicament that these people find themselves in. From what little I could observe, and it was little because of the constant harassment, these protesters are sincere. There was a winsomeness in their singing and one could not help but be touched by the strength that they found in their group and in their hymnody. But the times, they are a changing. I hear too many people comparing their private sector job lack of benefits, job security and retirement. I don’t know if these protesters and others like them are having honest discussions with their families, friends and neighbors but if they did they might be surprised at what they would hear. I would have liked to have such a discussion with one or two of those at the rally.

3. I am concerned at the sense of entitlement that I observed. It was obvious that the Meades and I were not welcome and in fact we were meant to be chased away. I remember chants last spring of, “Who’s house, our house!” Yet those gathered seemed to be unwilling to concede that those who disagree with them in matters of party and policy are still included in the word, “our.” If you have never been to Madison I can only say that the Capital rising as it does high on the hill rivals the United States Capital in beauty and even more so the breathtaking and truly awe inspiring rotunda. One feels the public sacredness of the Capital and its grounds and for that to be denied to any citizen of the state is in a sense a public sacrilege. I would guess that many of those protesting feel the presence of Gov. Walker and two Republican majority chambers is a sacrilege. That can only come from an impoverished view of our democracy. That is why to those who suggest Professor Althouse, should stay away, lay low, stop inciting (apparently when she shows up otherwise civil people cannot control their behavior), stop photographing and stop reporting I scream, “No!” And to the police, who I am sure are weary of all this, I say you are charged with keeping the peace but not at the cost of freedom to assemble. To do less for your own convenience is to dishonor the badge you wear and the oath you took. Perhaps the protesters might take a week off to give our police a break. It would be a gift.

4. Folks who work for the government, union or not, you are not oppressed. You make good salaries compared to your counter parts in the private sector, have more job security by far, more holidays, vacation days and comparatively outstanding health and retirement benefits. The problem for you as I see it is that you thought it would never end. Well, guess what, while you are singing about saving the middle class I want you to know, I AM the middle class and I pay for you! If you want to help the middle class then you are going to have to accept compensation that is more in line with reality. If you are fearful of the future may I suggest to you that your friends have been fearful for a long time. Change is coming and the old arguments born in the industrial age and honed in earlier eras of fatness sound incredibly hollow today. You singing songs and beating drums in what sounds like a Salvation Army street meeting only underscores how old and out of touch your ideas have become.

5. Now to those who think like Gray Shirt that as a Christian minister I am out to bleed people of their money for my own gain or who think that is what churches in general do I found it amusing that while I was being told how unlike Jesus I was my church had a team of twenty-two lay men and woman in a small town in Nicaragua do construction and medical missions. We were dispensing that very week through doctors and nurses from pour church $26,000 in medicine and medical supplies donated to us by, guess who, a major pharmaceutical company. That very night my church prepared and served dinner to a hundred homeless men in a rescue mission and that when NFL season comes around a bank president in my church will open his home to men from the rescue mission to come and join him in an afternoon of NFL TV after church. Our church gives generously to those in need. Which brings me to my next point.

6. People on the progressive side of the political spectrum seem to think they are kind, caring and benevolent because they vote for people who enact laws and budgets that take my money and then give it to your pet projects and constituencies. There is nothing generous about that. Jesus said it is more blessed to give than to receive he didn’t say it is blessed to tax someone and give it away. The data is unarguable, in the United States Christians are by far the most generous givers.  When you give willingly what is yours, not take what is mine and redistribute it, then you can call yourself generous, kind and benevolent.

7. Last, and I say this with some sadness, I was shocked at the treatment I received by the people of Madison gathered there at the Capital on Friday. To be harangued for an hour by someone constantly getting in my face with what I now think I realize was the tacit approval of the crowd and the explicit permission of the leadership was a stain on your beautiful city and your reputation as a center of progressive tolerance. Yes, I am told that some on Twitter have said that I was aggressive and bullying but they are lying. I suspect it’s because they know how badly I was treated and the good will with which I bore the abuse. Better to get out in front and create a narrative to your liking. Have at it. I actually kind of get a kick out being referred to as the nefarious Kansas Preacher. I have ministered in Africa, South and Central America and Mexico. I have held evangelistic services in towns where there was little welcome. I have been glared at in Brazil, stared down in Guatemala and gangster slang of cartel country in Mexico. I have walked the streets of Los Angeles Skid Row with impunity and worked for a government agency in the worst neighborhoods in Philadelphia (where I was a member of the social services union and walked the picket line, thank you) and the worst I have ever been treated in a public place was in Madison, Wisconsin. I say that to your shame.

I am blessed to have met Ann Althouse and Meade Laurence. I arrived as an acquaintance but I left as a friend. Adversity that is shared does that; hospitality that is offered seals it. I came to Madison with an open hand. I had hoped I would have found friends among you as well. Maybe next time.

I’m told that someone at the rally tweeted with certainty that Ann brought me as her “goon.” For the record I don’t weigh 300 lbs as was alleged, I weigh 255 and that gut is from too many Kansas biscuits with gravy. I know I should do sit ups but to borrow a line from comedian Jon Pinette, “I don’t do ups, I only do downs!” But I am 6’ 3.5” and proud of it. I regret that in a naiveté born of my seventeen years in Kansas that I didn’t perceive the threat to Ann. I’m from Philly, I know what real union goons do and I should have known better. I will be back because I’m interested and when I come back if the Professor is with me, I will not leave her side. She’s gutsy but she is small and I will be proud to be her goon anytime.

You of the protests, elections, recalls, camp-ins, plastic drums beating and banners flying I wish you well in the uncertainty that lies ahead for all of us. I pray that I might find a friend or two among you when I return. Until then, solidarity!

The Nefarious Kansas Preacher

158 comments:

nevadabob said...
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nevadabob said...
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Michael K said...

Interesting. A 6 foot 3, 255 pound preacher might have quite an influence on sinners.

Seven Machos said...

Caplight: That was a stirring piece, and it's good to be reminded that Christians have an agenda that is not of a piece with politics.

Please ignore Bob here. He is an annoying Moby.

paminwi said...

I am sad. Overwhelmingly sad that someone comes to MY state that I have always been so proud to be from and writes so eloquently (unlike me)about how they felt being here in Madison.

I guess I need to stop writing and just have something to drink and forget about it all.

David said...

Praise the Lord and pass the amunition.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Well written.

"Amen!"

Chase said...

People on the progressive side of the political spectrum seem to think they are kind, caring and benevolent because they vote for people who enact laws and budgets that take my money and then give it to your pet projects and constituencies.

70 years ago, people like that could be committed to state run institutions because they obviously couldn't deal with reality, which is a form of mental illness.

Anyone else here think we'd be better off if our tax dollars went to mental institutions for people like that today? You know, progressives?

Seriously, the number of people who would "straighten up and get their act together would be huge, would it not?

Sigh . . . . . . our tax dollars still go to the mental childishness of progressivism. Isn't it time we put a stop to it?

JAL said...

Ummm. nevadabob?

Would you please clarify your comment?

Ann Althouse said...

Nevada Bob, I deleted that because you clearly had not bothered to read caplight's account. You began the thread with opinion carried over from the old posts on the subject. That's not fair to caplight and not the discussion I want here.

edutcher said...

Damn, I like this guy!

Ann, you know how to pick good friends.

Two lines that struck me:

"She’s gutsy but she is small and I will be proud to be her goon anytime."

You're no goon, Padre, and, while the lady stands mighty tall in the eyes of many, you stand just as tall because you disregard the risks to stand by someone in need.

This is the kind of man who won the West and made this a country to be proud of.

"Well, guess what, while you are singing about saving the middle class I want you to know, I AM the middle class and I pay for you! If you want to help the middle class then you are going to have to accept compensation that is more in line with reality."

Something the Left, all the way up to the White House, needs to hear a lot more.

The Preacher says he's from Philly and knows about union thuggery. I'm assuming he's heard of the troubles of Leon Altemose in his time.

PS Something else he said touched me (and I'm betting many others here):

"I am blessed to have met Ann Althouse and Meade Laurence. I arrived as an acquaintance but I left as a friend."

To engender such a reaction says you are a couple of very special people.

PPS And this:

"apparently when she shows up otherwise civil people cannot control their behavior"

You have the power to drive men mad, Madame.

Phil 3:14 said...

An impressive post Pastor.

And like heartburn after a good meal Bob pops up.

JAL said...

caplight --

Thanks for sharing.

Really.

I am pleased to make your acquaintance.

Phil 3:14 said...

Professor, an impressive and IMHO appropriate editorial decision to delete Mr. Bob.

Apfelkuchen said...

I cannot believe you honestly expected a warm welcome?! You were with Althouse, for pity sake. The people who are at the singalongs really are not interested in debate with strangers from other states that are a tagging along with Althouse and Meade. The time for debates with conservatives is over, we know where they stand and don't care to even try to convince them to see the light anymore, waste of breath. Religious blabbermouth was being obnoxious and should've ignored you. Althouse's son was there for his Mom when she needed him, where were you? Did you help her?

galdosiana said...

Very thoughtful post, caplight. I really enjoyed reading it, and I hope that the next time you visit our state, you will be able to feel more respected. You might need to go to a city other than Madison for that to happen, unfortunately.

FloridaSteve said...

Wow! wonderfully written. Get this man his own blog please!

Palladian said...
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Paddy O said...

Very nicely written.

And an excellent argument why the Left does not control the obvious ethical positions on these issues. They've been corrupted and are showing what such corruption looks like.

Beldar said...

This is eloquent and persuasive. That it's constructed of soft words and simple ideas simply adds power to the indictment.

Bravo to the teller, and to those of whom the tale has been told.

Irene said...

"I am blessed to have met Ann Althouse and Meade Laurence. I arrived as an acquaintance but I left as a friend. Adversity that is shared does that; hospitality that is offered seals it."

This is the spirit of Christianity. I feel blessed to have read this tonight, and I am touched to be part of this circle of conversants.

Palladian said...

AppleKrotchen, translated: You deserved what you got, walking around OUR CITY like that! We have a right to be UNCHALLENGED when we commandeer a public place and make a lot of ugly noise and if you attempt to SOIL OUR CITY with your presence you deserve a beating.

But! I'm still going to imply that you are a pussy for not defending Althouse from my violent comrades!

Apfelkuchen said...

WRONG Palloderous. But just go ahead and keep making up scenarios in your head.

Canuck said...

"People on the progressive side of the political spectrum seem to think they are kind, caring and benevolent because they vote for people who enact laws and budgets that take my money and then give it to your pet projects and constituencies...The data is unarguable, in the United States Christians are by far the most generous givers."

I am assuming this is unintentional, but the way you have written this paragraph makes it sound like progressives are not and cannot be Christians.

As we all know, there are well-established liberal Christian churches and plenty of progressives who attend mainline churches.(Catholic Workers)

It is an error to judge another person's relationship with Christ based on his or her political opinion on teacher pay and/ or unions.

Calypso Facto said...

Very thoughtful. Elegant and direct. A well written after action review, caplight. Thank you.

Ann Althouse said...

"...debate with strangers from other states that are a tagging along with Althouse and Meade."

For the record, caplight was there ahead of us. He wanted to talk with people, as he says. He texted Meade, whom he'd met here before, and Meade said he was going down. Then Chris wanted to go, and that means the one who was tagging along was me!

We approached from the Capitol, and caplight was already there in the group, watching and interacting with people. We waved hi, and walked up and greeted him, introducing Chris, and the gray shirt guy kept haranguing him and, now, me.

By the way, did you notice on the video that at some point the gray shirt guy denounces me and Chris saying "atheists! atheists!" What the hell? This is Madison, not the Middle Ages.

OldGrouchyCranky said...

Good critique on the slum that has become the capital area of Madison, IMHAO! Also, a great read.

Professor, you've picked good friends and companions. Cheers.

Apfelkuchen said...

Hear hear Canuck. I sensed a less than Christian attitude in this evangelical preacher. I was raised in a Fundamentalist Evangelical church, made me the liberal I am today, praise God.

Apfelkuchen said...

Ann, gray shirt is a lunatic. Maybe the good preacher here rubbed folks the wrong way even before you and Meade got there.

Kirk Parker said...

Apfelkuchen,

Project much?

Palladian said...

Indeed, Canuck, some of the "progressives" with the worst totalitarian ideas of social control and ideological repression have been (and in many cases, are) staunch Christians.

Christianity is manifestly not a system of governance, and should not be the foundational basis of any free political system. Politics and religion are mutually terrible for each other. But I have long thought that much of what is considered the "progressive" agenda grew out of puritanical Christian notions of human society.

Valentine Smith said...

I thought it was Althouse being harangued by grey shirt. Now all those Christian references make sense. A most annoying chap. A typical left-wing hater. And they say marxism isn't a religion. Wow his dogmatic zealotry is absolutely breathtaking. You sir provide an excellent counter. I salute (and envy) your equanimity.

Personally, I would have found it impossible not to punch him in the throat.

Then again, heh heh, I'm obviously no Christian.

Palladian said...

"I was raised in a Fundamentalist Evangelical church, made me the liberal I am today, praise God."

LOL. See what I mean?

Get these fucking fundies away from the levers that control our government and into a padded cell as fast as possible...

Seven Machos said...

Maybe the good preacher here rubbed folks the wrong way even before you and Meade got there.

Or maybe the protestors are a bunch of latte-drinking leftists working out their collective psychosis in public over the death of an
unworkable social vision
.

Apfelkuchen said...

Palladian, I am no longer a fundamentalist Christian, sorry to burst your bubble.

Seven Machos said...

I sensed a less than Christian attitude in this evangelical preacher.

You cannot be serious.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- You are a fundamentalist leftist. Much, much worse.

Lukedog said...

"I am concerned at the sense of entitlement that I observed."

How does one observe a sense of entitlement. Come on, that's silly.

Also,
"To be harangued for an hour by someone constantly getting in my face with what I now think I realize was the tacit approval of the crowd..."

No, the rest of the crowd seemed to be ignoring him. You should have done so as well.

Problem is, Ann and Meade wouldn't have wanted to walk away. He's exactly the type of protester they like to capture on film.

Unfortunately, recording the average (calm, educated, peaceful) protester in Wisconsin doesn't deliver real exciting video. It sure won't land you on Fox news with Megyn Kelly!!

This is well-written (kind of) but ill-informed nonsense.

I'm sorry you saw our Capital Square through the eyes of Ann and Meade.

Palladian said...

By the way, did you notice on the video that at some point the gray shirt guy denounces me and Chris saying "atheists! atheists!" What the hell? This is Madison, not the Middle Ages.

It reinforces my point that so-called "progressive-ism" is nothing but the jagged and dangerous remnants of puritanism after all the "God" was salvaged from its ruins and sold for scrap about 100 years ago.

And what could be more medieval than Guild members freaking out about losing their Sacred Monopolies after the collapse of feudalism? Substitute a sackbut and a shawm for the plastic vuvuzelas and a Passion play for the bullhorn agitprop of the greyfriar... I mean, grey shirted guy, and we can party like it's 1299.

Hell, the Madison Passion plays are even followed by the same mob-based violence against unbelievers and sinners as were real Passion plays back in the bad old days!

Pax in nomine Domini!

Apfelkuchen said...

Preach it brother Lukedog, truth with a Capitol T.

Mutaman said...

What a blowhard!

Mutaman said...
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edutcher said...

Palladian said...

Get these fucking fundies away from the levers that control our government and into a padded cell as fast as possible...

Someone tell Palladian the "fundies" do not control the levers of government. It's those tolerant, compassionate Leftists.

That's what this is all about.

PS I also tend to take with a grain of salt (about the size of Lot's wife) all the Lefty claims that a Fundamentalist or Catholic upbringing is what drove them to small c communism.

Palladian said...

"I'm sorry you saw our Capital Square through the eyes of Ann and Meade."

You people are fucking creepy.

Thank goddess I live in New York City!

Seven Machos said...

recording the average (calm, educated, peaceful) protester in Wisconsin doesn't deliver real exciting video

Are you really suggesting, dude, that at this point in the political process, the people out there "protesting" are normal, well-adjusted people?

Really? I find it hard to believe that you can make this argument with a straight face. Perhaps you don't understand the terms you are using.

Palladian said...

edutcher, darling, sharpen up. Jesus, do I have to write at a 7-year-old reading level around here?

Seven Machos said...

I took Palladian's comment to meant that fundamentalists are fundamentalists are fundamentalists. Left, right, in a cave in Afghanistan -- it doesn't really make a difference. They're all crazy because they believe they can enforce their pristine ideology on others.

I will say that leftist fundies are the worst, though. I'll take being ruled over by Jimmy Swaggert or the God Hates Fags guy over Stalin or the average latte-sipping socialist driving her dad's old volvo any day.

SteveR said...

His assessment of the outdated notion of jobs, held by the public sector unions is spot on. The outrage expressed by these people (and their behavior) does not speak well of their intelligence or understanding.

Too bad so many are in positions where they have influence. They clearly do not deserve it.

Lukedog said...

Seven,

How often have you been up to the Wisconsin Capital Square in the last few months?

What have you witnessed?

Palladian said...

"I took Palladian's comment to meant that fundamentalists are fundamentalists are fundamentalists."

That's what he meant. I thought it was pretty obvious.

I was referring to GermanApplePie with that comment, not the Nefarious Kansas Preacher.

Apfelkuchen said...

Seven is from Chicago, probably never been to Madison, but is one of the many "experts "on Madison and Wisconsinites.

William said...

If reason and goodwill could win arguments, then the Kansas Preacher would win this one....The Preacher in his time has probably won more converts than the haranguer, whose own choir looks away.....If the civil service union ever hope to win an election, they would be well advised to address the Preacher's concerns in a civil way.

Lukedog said...

Apfel said,

"Seven is from Chicago, probably never been to Madison, but is one of the many "experts "on Madison and Wisconsinites."

Amazing.

I don't comment on things I don't know about. I guess I just expect the same of others.

Palladian said...

"I don't comment on things I don't know about. I guess I just expect the same of others."

You mean like commenting on Seven Machos' Madison knowledge on the basis of some hostile lefty commenter's assertions? That kind of commenting on things you don't know about?

Lukedog said...

Palladian,

Anytime Seven wants to describe his experiences in Madison, I am here to listen. Feel better.

Palladian said...

So for now, you'll happily comment about something you don't know anything about.

LOL. Thanks for clarifying your, uh, position!

Carol_Herman said...

Yup. Ann was a target. That's why David R. Graham's post to the original story with the video is really such an important read by everybody!

Here, Cap calls them "singers." Nope. They were agitators. And, what you saw, Cap, with your eyeballs, was executed with military precision.

Look for David R. Graham's post on 8/12/2011 @ 11:34 PM.

The agenda once it started was to have Ann or her son ARRESTED. They were going to be pushed into REACTING. And, oddly enough BECAUSE of this Blog ... tables got turned.

Kirby Jones (who I am sure has lurked here), saw the full array of his past exposed. Because someone used a "search engine." Man has a felony record. Seems he's also a deadbeat.

Then, you have Dickman. And, you have the guy who held the red balloon. (And, gave the "signal.") The balloon was held, oddly. Hugged like a teddy bear.

Whether or not this guy ended up dead and with a severed hand, I do not know. People who come by here wanted to give the black Labrador a medal.

Chris is okay.

And, COP-FAT-TOP (Officer Calhoun) was so way off the self-defense law ... I'd be surprised his personnel file isn't now under "review." His career? Not the smartest move in cop history to get caught on tape saying to a victim ... he could "soitenly" be arrested.

David R. Graham points out how this was executed by a team. And, with military precision.

And, yet, it didn't end the way it had been planned.

And, even Ann and Meade are not a lot smarter ... on how they need their own people watching their backs ... and taking video of an incident. (Not getting lost interviewing a bystander.) Ann was in REAL danger! So was her son!

As to union organizers there's nothing new, here. There used to be a time in America, when a strike was taking place ... men would come in by truck. With 2x4's. They weren't employees. Just sympathizers.

If, on the other hand, you want to see what unions have destroyed, go look at Detroit.

Also, I hope Cris looks into Wing Chun. As I've said. UC San Diego has classes in Wing Chun. ON CAMPUS! (It's a defensive system. You don't wear uniforms. There are no black belts. Or any belts. You're encouraged to know thugs leave ya room to respond to their aggression.)

I'll also mention, because the story was in the NY Post. A pregnant woman (19 weeks pregnant), was mugged (I think in Queens). Her bag was grabbed. And, she ran after the mugger. When she kicked him he went down. And, "somehow" his ankle got offset in a direction ankles aren't known to flip into.) He lay on the ground SCREAMING. And, passersby called the cops. The woman filed charges.

Yes, Madison's environment around the Rotunda can get "testy."

It's also BLOGGED. It's put Ann's blog on the map (so to speak). And, it's been marvelous at showing Internet users ... from all over the globe ... what's going on.

SUNSHINE IS THE BEST BLEACH.

Learning lessons from a military maneuver? Done all the time. The tapes are reviewed. And, performance suggestions flow.

I hope Ann uses a wrist strap to keep her camera "from slipping off." And, I hope Meade learns to be a "bit quicker" in his response when his wife is in the line of fire.

Politics isn't a religious experience. And, you're never too old to learn a little self-defense.

Seven Machos said...

Luke -- What part of what I have said is wrong?

Maguro said...

I find it absolutely amazing that this protest crap is still going on after all these months. Don't these people ever get tired of walking around with stupid signs and chanting? Isn't it time for these people to go back to bowling or curdling cheese or whatever the fuck it is they do in Wisconsin under "normal" circumstances?

Chip Ahoy said...

This is the most thoughtful thing I've read all day. Thank you for this, Mr. caplight.

Apfelkuchen said...

Congratulations to Senators Wirch and Holperin!

Palladian said...

TOTAL RECALL!!!

Lukedog said...

Seven,

What have your experiences been in Madison during the protests?

Seriously, if you can't answer the question, why would you try to argue with me about how things are here?

traditionalguy said...

It was very encouraging to hear from Caplight. He knows of what he speaks from living it.

Hospitality is one Fundamental part of the Christian church's role in life.

So God Bless the Fundamentalist couple Caplight met, who are described perfectly in 3John 5-8.

Seven Machos said...

My experience in Madison during "the protests" has been zero. Are you really suggesting that you have to be in Madison to understand Wisconsin politics or call people like you useless?

Really? That's your comeback. Not some kind of defense of unions, or some foundation for why you or anyone would still "protest" at this point?

No, no. None of that. Your sorry defense is that no one can comment on your movement, man, unless they are part of it, man.

I urge you to remember this line of argument next time you criticize, say, just for example, rich people for not paying enough in taxes. Because believe me, dude, you've never been part of or lived in my income bracket.

Carol_Herman said...

"Gray Shirt" = Kirby Jones

Did the black labrador really bring home a severed hand? If true, how delicious.

And, sometimes preachers have to learn not every venue welcomes them. That he entered the setup, however ... Is something that needs to be discussed at greater length.

The agitator (Kirby Jones) was looking for trouble! Sometimes? It pays to let a character like "grey shirt" ... (Kirby Jones) ... to keep boring the crowd to death.

Because?

Crowds can turn on their own.

But you've got to step out of the way.

Would Kirby Jones have kept on going if Ann ignored him? If she just shrugged? If Meade turned his flip to his wife ... and she began making funny faces?

What if she put her fingers in her mouth ... and pulled her lips out at both ends? What could Kirby had done then?

What if she said to the guy (who was working the periphery) ... "Where'd you buy your balloon? Was it expensive? Did you buy the last one?)

The best thing you can do in crowds by the way ... is use a lens that lets you get lots of faces. Instead of the singing ... IF you had just gotten faces ... That's a stunning thing to show on a blog.

Look what England's done with the faces of the looters ... that got published in a newspaper? Think I'm kidding?

It's worth going over what happened. And, discussing alternates. What's the keeper.

What's superfluous.

(A long time ago, the guy carrying the JESUS SAVES sign ... was all by himself. Huge signs. Didn't start arguments.)

Mark said...

Thank you, NKP.

Apfelkuchen said...

Seven Machos, nobody gives a rats ass about your income bracket. I live in Waukesha County, I see no need to throw around comments about income brackets, even though this county has one of the highest income brackets in the state, you have just exhibited your weakness.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- It's not a weakness that I have not had the pleasure of witnessing latte-drinking leftists protesting over cuts in lavish benefits. My points are perfectly valid.

Tell us: is it a weakness in your argument that you are not wealthy yet want to tax the rich? How can you understand what being rich is if you have not experienced it? Or do you feel you have experienced it because you have sold the rich shoes in Waukesha County?

rcocean said...

I just want to state that although I'm fabulously wealthy - and could buy and sell you all - I don't want to brag about how much money I have.

Or bring up how much more I have than you. So, just forget it.

Just think me of as Humble RcOcean.

Apfelkuchen said...

Seven, you do not know anything about how much money I make or what I am worth, it is not the end all and be all to posses wealth, but that is not saying that I haven't been blessed in this life . Stop measuring a persons worth in dollars and cents, may make you a better human being.

Seven Machos said...

RC -- I'm glad you think my argument is stupid. That's the point. Just as it's ridiculous and facetious to argue that poor Luke and Apfel (and I use the term in its relative material sense) cannot comment on taxing the rich because they are not rich, it's ridiculous to argue that I cannot comment on these "protests" because I have not been to Wisconsin lately.

I'm glad you get it, if only at the lowest level.

rcocean said...

Also, I think its terrible that rich people, the "Job Creators", like Bill Clinton or Lady Gaga, are being taxed.

People who are rich shouldn't pay anymore taxes than your average peon or cube monkey. Can we help it that we're better - or luckier -than you?

Don't tax us, we create jobs -except when we're investing overseas. But that's another story.

Seven Machos said...

it is not the end all and be all to posses wealth

It is not the end all and be all to go to protests. Get it?

Seven Machos said...

Stop measuring a person's worth in the number of protests they go to.

Get it?

I'm holding out hope that you can be quicker on the uptake that RC.

Apfelkuchen said...

No one said it was Seven. We have lives that are full and useful outside of protests. You have a very narrow view of who we are. You know nothing.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- Above, Luke offered -- and you latched onto -- the argument that I could not comment on Wisconsin politics or protests because I have not been to Madison -- specifically Madison -- since these goofy protests began.

I offer the argument that you cannot seriously advocate raising taxes on the rich because you have no idea what it's like to be rich -- our trials, our tribulations.

What's the difference in these arguments? If one is valid, so must the other be. If one is silly, so the other one. Because it's the exact same argument.

Apfelkuchen said...

Again Seven , you make assumptions that we posses no wealth of our own, silly man.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- But you don't.

Apfelkuchen said...

Seven, but you WISH I didn't , because it wouldn't fit into your narrow view of what a liberal is.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- Well, my narrow view of what a liberal is is the poor and downtrodden, the mega-rich (every tremendously wealthy person I have ever known has been a left-liberal, and a collective school teachers, bureaucrats, and latte-sipping hipster types who think they are smart but can't seem to get much into six figures.

I picture you in this last group.

Apfelkuchen said...

Seven, you certainly have your fantasies you cling to, huh?

caplight said...

If I could respond to some of the comments though perhaps not by name.
Madison is a lovely city and Wisconsin a beautiful state. I think I made it clear that I was addressing those who had gathered on the square that day, not the whole city or state.

Call me naive (just don't call me Shirley) but I pretty much make friends wherever I go. So I did expect to ask questions and listen. I believe that if I can talk to people I can often find out what is in their hearts beyond talking points, at least I'll try. I've heard the talking points I wanted to hear the people.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that liberal or progressive people can't be Christian or that a Christian can't be progressive. The earliest expressions of that impulse in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were not redistributive. The Christians of that era were powerfully socially engaged. Looking for the government to what the church is called to do would come later. It is a divide within the Christian traditions today. I stand by my statement that voting for people and policies that take my money and give it away does not make you kind, noble or generous.

Personally, I think the Sermon on the Mount is the greatest expression of a society and way for people to live ever conceived or revealed. However, I don't think it is a blue print for domestic or foreign policy. The voluntary nature of the kingdom of God should tip us off to the fact that you can't force it on people. On the other hand western civilization is Judeo Christian at its foundation. An interesting tension.

Yes, I expect to be able to walk in public in Madison or any where else in the United States as a free citizen. Taking pictures, too!

Progressivism today doesn't so much find it's roots in the Puritan tradition as I think it does in the utopian impulse of the New England Transcendentalists. It has to do with beliefs about the nature of humankind.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said I sensed entitlement. I should say I heard it and observed it in the words spoken and sung (obviously not all) and in the attitude to ownership of the space and the attitude toward the elective process.

Do I remember J Leon Altemose. I lived near that Sheraton project that was invaded by the unions. I remember the mounted state troopers. That was 1972 I think. I could tell you stories, believe me.

Let me wrap up. Ann and Meade are gutsy in a firm yet not antagonistic way. There were those in attendance that could have made the harassment stop because I saw them do it when it suited their purpose. Gray Shirt was not a crazy. I was there. You weren't. Red Shirt different story. But in all of that they are cool under fire, do not get angry, but know their rights. They are a class act and their behavior to me is admirable as is their contribution to the discussion our nation is having right now. I personally owe them a great deal.

My pulpit and my ministry are more ruthlessly neutral than Ann's blog! I pastor the whole spectrum of political identities, socio-economic strata and even multiple nationalities. Here I get to be me not the pastor of my church and what comment is only as caplight.

Thank you for your kind comments and for helping me see some things that needed clarification. And again thanks to Ann, Meade and Chris.

Seven Machos said...

But, anyway, my argument apparently stands:

You can't understand how rich people live if you yourself are not rich, and therefore you can't criticize their tax rates.

Similarly, I can't understand how Madison's goofy protestors act because I myself am not one of them, and therefore I can't criticize their goofiness.

And so we are at an impasse. You can't have any of my money. I can't criticize your meaningless charade.

Oh well. I feel good about my position.

bagoh20 said...

"... and the worst I have ever been treated in a public place was in Madison, Wisconsin."

Congratulations lefties, you won something. You should be very proud of yourselves and your fine city.

You other Madisonians (the actively and inactively decent) need to clean house, peacefully and democratically of course, but clean you must. Your town is still small enough that each citizen can make a difference. You are lucky like that.

freedom4u said...

Caplight, something in my gut tells me that you and your church in the near future may be feeding, housing, and clothing the very union members you met in Madison. As for their medical needs I'm not sure you will be able to find a pharmaceutical company willing or able to donate to their cause if the union/progressives get their way. Thank you for your post as it brings clarity to the Althouse's video.

Carol_Herman said...

Just remember this, Caplight. A physician doesn't drag out his stethoscope because he's out in public. And, there's a crowd. He doesn't walk over to people to tell them to stop smoking, either.

What happened on August 12th was done by HIRED GOONS! They knew Ann. She was even identified in one maneuver.

Of all the things I've read, the piece by David R. Graham (August 12, 2011. At 11:34 PM) gave the military details of this operation.

It included the "familiarity" Officer Calhoun had with the "union folk."

It was not innocent! Ann could have really gotten hurt! Her son could have REALLY GOTTEN ARRESTED. Kapish?

Ann called for the police. But at no time does Officer Calhoun come over and say "who called me?" Instead, with a wink and a nod to the PERPS ... he says to Chris Althouse Cohen "that he could be arrested."

WRONG LAW. WRONG PLACE. WRONG TIME. Ann backed off her threat.

You probably didn't see this. But MARK O ... a commentor wrote and said: "Ann, don't threaten, it weakens your stature. DO IT." Don't threaten to do it.

Pretty much these are good lessons for everyone who comes by here. Most people get so surprised to see "cops are not your friend."

Let alone, someone like Officer Calhoun who wouldn't even know the basics of self defense.

Plus, next time? BETTER CAMERA WORK!

And, where the camera's strap.

This whole thing, considering all the comments it attracted, means lots of people had their jaws drop! They didn't expect Chris to get threatened!

IF YOU WANT SAFE CITIES ... YOU NEED THE POLICE TO KNOW THEY GET IN TROUBLE WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT NOT PROTECTING THAT WHICH THEY ARE PAID TO PROTECT.

Next time you write anything, by the way, since you were a witness ... you should write to Governor Walker about the concerns you have for the public to access public space. And, not to let it be taken over by "agitators" and goons.

David R. Graham said that "Lawyers have power in courtrooms. On battlefields, qua lawyers .... Life is more battlefields than courtrooms. In this event you were on a battlefield (Ann). Your opponents controlled and skillfully manuevered you into thinking (it) was a courtroom. (A legal situation). IT WASN'T."

Apfelkuchen said...

Hahaha, lots of fantasy tonight, between Seven and Carol, oy. Caplight, too bad you didn't come during the floor debates in the House and Senate and hear all the testimony at the hearings back in winter, maybe you would've gotten a better idea of what is going on here.

n.n said...

In order to preserve individual dignity. In order to mitigate the principal contributing factors to progressive corruption. It is imperative that funding through involuntary exploitation be limited and targeted. It would be ideal if all acts of redistribution were achieved through voluntary exploitation (i.e., charitable works and donations). It is accepted that involuntary exploitation should not extend far beyond promoting the general welfare (not individual and not group).

America's left and like-minded have regurgitated the worst humans have to offer each other. An ideology which denigrates individual dignity and devalues human life, directed through the substitution of totalitarian policies for moral knowledge (i.e., reduction of liberty).

Well, Americans have a choice before them. One that has been made throughout history and throughout the world: To what extent will we normalize involuntary exploitation and how will the inevitable consequences of corruption be handled?

Who knows, maybe it's already too late. The appeal of instant gratification is pervasive and comprehensive among a large minority and maybe even a majority of Americans, especially among the wealthiest and poorest citizens and illegal aliens.

In any case, in order to properly discuss issues of merit, we should refrain from emotional appeals and other acts of extortion and intimidation, which only serve to marginalize and disenfranchise people. Supposedly, we claim a maturity that surpasses such juvenile antics.

I cannot understand how people can simultaneously fear a private monopoly, while wholeheartedly embracing a public monopoly which is enforced through a granted or coerced authority. There are compromises to be made, but following a path which demands we defer to a superior or exceptional human dignity is entirely regressive.

No, I do understand how this is possible. It is a path followed by individuals with delusions of grandeur, selfish bastards, and the vulnerable which they prey upon.

Marty said...

I join the good preacher in his profound appreciation for Ann and Meade. Their willingness to expose the nakedness of the emperor in his nanny state robes is heartening to me and my friends who live in California, a state run and ruined by the kinds of folks chanting their Wobbly chants at and in your lovely capitol.

Seven Machos said...

Apfel -- Isn't what's going is that Democrats can't even win off-year-off-year special recall elections in districts that Democrats specifically targeted? Isn't what's going on that elected Democrats fled the state whether than vote on bills, as is their job?

And isn't what's going on that the sky didn't fall when overpaid government workers had to take a cut in their lavish benefits?

I suppose you'll tell us that, no, what's really going is that the people took to the streets to protest the democratically elected government of Wisconsin, which is what democracy looks like, man.

Also, tax the rich. Because they make so much more money than you. And if they'd just pony up and work more for less, man, overpaid government workers could keep their lavish benefits and 36-hour work weeks and weeks of vacation.

Seven Machos said...

Whether? Rather.

Apfelkuchen said...

Only in your world view seven, not in reality.

Seven Machos said...

What did I say that is not true in reality?

Palladian said...

Seven, can I borrow some money?

Seven Machos said...

Palladian -- Absolutely. I hope you understand the absurdity of the argument I am making. The whole point has been to be absurd, which apparently doesn't translate very well for the deeply committed -- the fundamentalists.

Palladian said...

It's telling that as a poor, fat, starving artist, the only people who have purchased prints of my drawings via Althouse have been "right wing death beasts". None of the presumably educated, sensitive and arts-supporting lefties have made so much as an enquiry!

Palladian said...

Actually, garage mahal once intimated that he was going to buy a print of a drawing of some saloon dancing girls, but nothing ever came of it.

Palladian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Palladian said...

"I hope you understand the absurdity of the argument I am making."

I do!

I, too, have been making absurd arguments here all evening and hardly anyone seems to get it.

I don't know if you used to be around here when the comment community was much more receptive to absurdity, but things have changed.

Seven Machos said...

Where's gay marriage when you need it?

jimspice said...

Fine, fine, fine. But did Caplight witness anything he would consider an assault?

Seven Machos said...

Jim -- Since the assault law in Wisconsin has to be something very much like touching that causes or is intended to cause harm, there was obviously an assault. Why belabor what the crazy red guy did?

The better question is: was Althouse warranted in calling for the police?

Palladian said...

jimspice, leader of the 8/12 Truthers!

Keep fightin' the fight, man!

Sue D'Nhym said...

but the way you have written this paragraph makes it sound like progressives are not and cannot be Christians.

Not by any sensible reading of what he wrote.

He said that progressives think that by voting the way they do, they are being compassionate, and that is not what makes one compassionate.

That is not saying that they are not being compassionate, but rather that a means of theirs for trying to be compassionate is misguided. They could be compassionate beyond that, but their voting habits do not make them compassionate any more than their shoelace tying habits.

Further, stating that a different (and perhaps, in some cases, overlapping) segment of society is more compassionate does not imply a complete lack of compassion in the first group. It just states that another group is doing it better, and perhaps should be emulated.

Sixty Grit said...

Carol Herman, you wrote one almost coherent comment, then followed that up with a babbling regurgitation of the same points.

In the second one you included one of your made up words, "kapish". That is not a word. Perhaps you were going for "capisce", which means "understand" in Italian.

Congratulations, you are now illiterate in English, Yiddish and Italian, thereby surpassing Garbage in the number of languages you can't write in.

Pogo said...

Masterful post by caplight. I wish I could write that well. I wish I had that same approach to people; gracious and open and learned. Thanks for writing that. It needed to be said.

Clyde said...

In other nefarious preacher news, my local paper reports that Koran-burner Terry Jones is moving to our county. Hey, it's a free country. But for the love of God, lose those wacky sideburns, dude! The 1890s called, they want their facial hair back.

Clyde said...

Actually, correction, it was weird-ass mustache. Just looked at the picture in the paper. Let the record so reflect!

Curious George said...

"Pogo said...
Masterful post by caplight. I wish I could write that well. I wish I had that same approach to people; gracious and open and learned. Thanks for writing that. It needed to be said."

True, but the world needs a little Pogo too!

Darcy said...

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, caplight. I am guilty every day it seems, lately, of shrill language in an effort to reach the opposing point of view. I'm angry. But deep down, I DO want to persuade. I'm quite desperate to, actually, because I do fear presently for where our country - our collective hearts - are headed.

If your gentle observations and kind requests to consider the alternate point of view don't cause even a few to consider your thoughts, I don't know what kind of language will.

A pleasure to read you.

Darcy said...

And Pogo said it better. :)

Lincolntf said...

Great post, caplight. Sorry you had to deal with the sleazy underbelly of American politics so up close and personal, but I'm glad you took the time to tell your side of things. As for the faux-oppressed protesters, they are well beyond help, but maybe a younger generation will see them for the disgrace they are and not follow in their footsteps.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... How does one observe a sense of entitlement. Come on, that's silly..."

Not at all. Watching a bunch of public sector employees demand that the taxpayer fund salaries and benefits few in the private sector enjoy looks a lot like a sense of entitlement.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Stop measuring a persons worth in dollars and cents, may make you a better human being..."

Seven wasn't measuring anyone's worth by their wealth.

Its quite clear your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

Patrick said...

As a former resident of WI, and having done my 4 years in Madison, this post, or rather the truth of this post dismays me. WI was a wonderful place to grow up, even if it was a bit off kilter at times. Madison was always the crazy stepsister, but typically, most people were midwestern friendly. The last six months have really shown what the progressive movement is all about - entitlement. This writing says it quite well, but it's still sad.

AJ Lynch said...

Nefarious Kansas Preacher is also damn eloquent. Thanks for stopping by and giving some of us a reason to pause and think about what is important.

Althouse - your two guest writers last night [Nina and Caplight] were great. Thanks for what you do!

Curious George said...

Lukedog said...
"I am concerned at the sense of entitlement that I observed."

How does one observe a sense of entitlement. Come on, that's silly."

I think caplight describes it well, but we have seen it over and over at the square.

The protesters faced very little opposition over the last half year. But in every case, what was their reaction?

To the Tea Party rally?
To Fox News presence?
To every vote?
To floor debate?
To McIver Institute reporters?
To GOP congressman and women coming and going to work?
To Althouse and Meade?

Shout 'em down. Intimidate.

Call Me Mom said...

Well written caplight. I have read many of Ann and Meade's blog posts during the protests and beyond. I have to say that they appear to be fairly well balanced. It is indeed to our shame that a visitor was treated to such a display of bad manners.
As for the assault on Ann, I was truly shocked and appalled to hear the officer threaten to arrest Chris for defending someone who was being attacked.
Our capital is a truly lovely building and I hope you enjoyed seeing it as part of your visit. Several of my own posts on the matter address the disrespect to the building and the process of our REPUBLICAN form of government. (My apologies for the caps, but hearing it referred to as a democracy is one of my pet peeves. We are not and should never wish to be a democracy. "A democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for dinner..." It may be old and overused, but that doesn't make it any less true.)

There are some lovely photos of the capital building(I can never remember if it is capitol or capital when referring to the building. Please forgive the error if I have mistaken the correct spelling.) on my blog,(June 14th 2011 post has a photo of the rotunda.) although I have no doubt that you were able to take several of your own.

If, as you speculate, WI is the precursor of what will be facing our nation, I can only hope that we manage to settle down and work together to get our state budget under control by working together as Wisconsinites rather than liberals and progressives.

Call Me Mom said...

That last bit should have read, "rather than as liberals, progressives, liberatarians and conservatives."

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... As for the assault on Ann, I was truly shocked and appalled to hear the officer threaten to arrest Chris for defending someone who was being attacked..."

This just isn't a.Madison problem. Nowadays cops don't take time to sort out who threw the first punch, they just bust anyone involved and sort it out later. This is common especially during large events and gatherings. They simply don't want to be bothered with that kind if crap.

I think its bullshit but then again its part of life. If someone assaulted my mom, wife or daughter in that way, I would cheerfully go to the Slammer knowing the perp would be eating from a straw for a few months.

Henry said...

Caplight -- Very well written. I'm one of those that argues that atheist position in these threads, but I was raised among religious people and do not doubt the meaning it brings to many. Your grace and honesty resonate with my own experience.

garage mahal said...

Actually, garage mahal once intimated that he was going to buy a print of a drawing of some saloon dancing girls, but nothing ever came of it.

Reply to your email !!

Aridog said...

Apfelkuchen said ....

...you didn't come during the floor debates in the House and Senate and hear all the testimony at the hearings back in winter, maybe you would've gotten a better idea of what is going on here.

Pardon me, as a retired "Military Fed" I've a pretty good idea of what was at stake ... the collective bargaining of public sector unions for wages and benefits. Guess what? That is BS for public sector unions, the AFL-CIO affiliated federal employee union has no such rights and never has had them. Membership is voluntary as is dues deduction from pay. Most "Feds" have done fine without that power.

Your little teachers and public service employees are spoiled brats who seem to think they've a special right to tap other citizen's purses via tax revenue and expenditure, at will. Really? There's no corporate business entity with profit (or loss) potential on which to lay the Lockean claim to labor's vested interest in production (Locke did not sponsor a vested interest in capital per se ... just the products there of ... just what are the "products" of public sector employment?) There's no risk of loss of employment due to business downturns or over reaching labor contracts.

Before I was a "Fed" I was in the skilled trades. Jobs depended upon profits in the business sector. AFL-CIO lost its mettle when Lane Kirkland was displaced by SIEU panderers. The vaunted Mr Trumka is a lawyer, who never worked a line in his life (or cleaned a toilet or swept a floor), but now heads a working man's & woman's union. Punk is as punk does. Patheitc is all I can attribute to it today.

That's what you had in Madison ... I haven't been there in the last 5 years, but I don't need to be there to know whiny BS when I hear it.

roesch-voltaire said...

From his story, I think he serves humanity, and the church well, but wonder if he considers how what he calls being " more in line with reality" came about. It seems the reality of less for workers and fewer unions and rights is a reality that was created under great political pressure, and not necessarily a given. That so many folks are willing to accept less, rather than fight to increase their wages and benefits is a modern irony. If the Kansas Preacher wants to meet folks other than politicians and union leaders perhaps he should just mingle among the crowd without a camera crew and strike up a few conversations-- that is what I do to get a better sense of the spectrum of opinion.

caplight said...

Truth in packaging: You would not have found me sounding so gentle on the drive back to Kansas. My daughters and Meade got an earful.

And I want to be clear so please let me restate that I wrote observations of what I experienced at the square. Those were the folks I was writing to in my mind.

wv: "hablina"-as in can't we just have a little talk?

Aridog said...

roesch-voltaire ...

That so many folks are willing to accept less, rather than fight to increase their wages and benefits is a modern irony.

One reason is a shrinking pie from which to demand higher wages, etc.

How do you square public sector collective bargaining rights versus tax payers? Government produces nothing, so what is the vested claim...given that reasonable wage parity is already reached.

Never mind that the same modern day union champions do far less for the smaller locals and employees of smaller businesses. They never have sought parity there except in the skilled trades.

Lukedog said...

Seven,

I never said you shouldn't comment on the issues in Wisconsin.

I specifically said that you shouldn't comment on the protests/protesters themselves if you haven't been here.

I don't need to go into my opinion on Governor Walker's rotten budget bill. Besides, I've already done that plenty on here.

Like I said, I only talk about things I know a fair amount about. You should do the same or you'll continue to look foolish.

And here,
"Because believe me, dude, you've never been part of or lived in my income bracket."

This has absolutely nothing to do with our dialogue, I didn't mention taxes. Frankly, I don't think I've ever mentioned taxes on this blog. Get a hold of yourself.

I said, if you haven't been to the Madison protests you shouldn't comment on what they are like.

So, you haven't been here.

Lincolntf said...

R-V conveniently elides the point that in order for the Union goons to get more, every taxpayer in the State has to get less from their labor. The way to deal with this conflict is A: don't have backward-ass, corrupt and unjustifiable public Unions in the first place, or B: let the voters, through their representatives, decide how public employee compensation plans are designed. While the sleeveless wonders of Madison would never agree to A, the fact that they reject B makes them no better than thugs and extortionists. Scumbags dressed up as schoolmarms.

Phil 3:14 said...

I never said you shouldn't comment on the issues in Wisconsin.

Reminiscent of this

"Who said that!? I didn't say that. If I had said that I would have been wrong!"

Henry said...

That so many folks are willing to accept less, rather than fight to increase their wages and benefits is a modern irony.

There is no irony. There are tradeoffs. One might accept less compensation to have more autonomy. One might accept less compensation to have more time. One might accept less compensation to work where one's skills are maximized. I have happily made all these choices in my life.

In terms of collective behavior, the union might accept less income per individual to increase the number of individuals the employer can afford to employ.

If the union believes in its work product, rather than its compensation, it might accept less income per individual to increase the quality of its work. Smaller benefits to retired members, for example, mean more money for new hires (think of pupils per teacher). Less compensation frees up money for the infrastructure in which members work (think of physical buildings, physical supplies, digital assets).

There is no irony. Just tradeoffs.

madawaskan said...

caplight

You are a force-and it comes from your words...

Yes I saw the twitter "accounts" and it seemed as if they had projected all of the characteristics of the other guy-"Macho Grey Shirt" on to you.

It was a compete inversion of the reality.

garage mahal said...

One of the resident commenters called the races last night pretty dang close. One smart dude!

madawaskan said...

Yep.

8% and it actually is going to be 10%.

PPP said 14%?

So ya, that dude did better than PPP.

Wish I cold remember who that was...

Trooper York said...

Hey New York is no bowl of cherries and we have a lot of crazy people but Wisconsin seem like a real messed up place to me.

Apfelkuchen said...

Aridog I was directing my comments to the good preacher, not you the "Fed". The preacher wanted to understand the protestors better, not just take your word for it.

Aridog said...

Apfelkuchen ...

I understand. You have no argument. It isn't just "my word for it" ... federal public employee wages and benefits can be easily looked up under FERS, FEHBP and General Service Grade pay schedules. None of that is subject to "collective bargaining" nor should it be.

The Wisconsin protesters are whining about special privileges that have been withdrawn, not something that is inherent in Union activity otherwise, such as where wage & benefit bargaining is with a profit making entity, not a tax collecting one. And where jobs depend on those hiring to make a profit ... a feature lacking in public sector unionism where collective bargaining is demanded as some kind of "right."

Don't take my word for it ... look up what FDR had to say about it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well think about Troop. All they make is cheese. When that is your state's staple food the citizens are constantly bound up. That's why garage is the way he is. Dude hasn't taken a decent dump his whole life.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I must say I do like how the protests are for the 'poor', the poor bring taxpayer funded public workers making wages and benefits above the national average.

I have a coworker whose wife is a teacher and he remarked last week that she had to gear back up for work now that summer is over. I replied that I don't have to do that since I still have to work over my summers. And my fall break and my Xmas break and my spring break.

garage mahal said...

The Good People of Wisconsin Have Spoken. They rejected the radical anti union busting Walker Republicans and prefer a pro union majority in the senate. Get rid of Walker and some in the assembly next election and now you have something cooking!

Hoosier Daddy said...

Can someone explain why the taxpayers are not a part of public employee contract negotiations? I mean they're the ones who have to pay the bill.

Tobias said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tobias said...

Thanks for your thoughtful summary, caplight. Good to hear your thoughts from one Kansas to another. My wife had a conference in Madison a few years ago and I was awed by the beauty of the capital building and the layout of the city. It'd be interesting to go back and visit in the midst of the protests to compare and contrast.

It's also good to read your thoughts, as many of my Christian friends are big into legislating Christian ethics. I havent't said much to them yet, as my own thoughts are muddled.

However, some of the things you say resonate. I wrote down a few words last year that I keep in mind as I attempt to be charitable to my friends as I am speaking to them, to remember where the bedrock of my thoughts lie.

"Coercion is not Charity."

and

"Taxes are not tithe."

The church led the way in the world for centuries with education, health care, and charities. However, they have now been co-opted by the state (in many cases with the approval of the church, it seems). In my opinion the church is the worse for it.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Can someone explain why someone who is not contributing a penny to public workers in a state they don;t live in would care in the slightest how they are compensated?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Actually I don't care garage, my question was borne out of curiosity. Quite frankly you guys could recall Walker, jack up teacher wages and benefits 100% and turn your state into a bankrupt shithole like California and I would not give two shits.

If the people of your state are dimwitted enough to believe public employee union members are bring screwed then by all means give em all raises and tax the fuck out of everyone to pay it.

Have fun.

garage mahal said...

There was nothing wrong with this state before Walker got here. And a lot of people are looking forward to kicking him hard to the curb.

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
The Good People of Wisconsin Have Spoken. They rejected the radical anti union busting Walker Republicans and prefer a pro union majority in the senate. Get rid of Walker and some in the assembly next election and now you have something cooking!"


100% correct! Well, if you ignore the fact that the GOP still has a majority in both Houses, and the recalls put before the Good People of Wisconsin failed to change that. And 53% of the total vote in those recalls went to the radical anti union busting Walker Republicans. And 67% of the radical anti union busting Walker Republicans were retained.

Now that we have put that fantasy to bed, let's move to this one:

"garage mahal said...
There was nothing wrong with this state before Walker got here. And a lot of people are looking forward to kicking him hard to the curb."


Nope, other than a $3 billion structural deficit that would have forced additional taxation on a tax hell state. There is a reason Doyle didn't run. He knew he couldn't win. As far as Walker getting kicked to the curb, want to make in interesting garage?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Good for you then garage. I wish you all the luck in overthrowing the current regime. Vote early and often, the Democratic way.

garage mahal said...

nd 53% of the total vote in those recalls went to the radical anti union busting Walker Republicans.

Not true. Fought mostly on friendly GOP turf:

Nine Democratic candidates: 244,978 votes

Nine Republican candidates: 238,527 votes

Hoosier Daddy said...

You know. Until recently I didn't even know there were republicans in Wisconsin. I just assumed the few who didn't go full bore socialist just converted to Democrat.

Kathy said...

I completely agree with what Palladin said in his assessment of the sing-along folks who have made a cottage industry of protesting at the Capitol…..”“And what could be more medieval than Guild members freaking out about losing their Sacred Monopolies after the collapse of feudalism?” They were the first Puritans, really.

These folks never stopped until they started making everyone in England swear the Oath of Supremacy (Thanks Henry VIII) and – in Shakespeare’s times – the Queen was putting Catholics in the Tower and drawing and quartering Catholic recusants and newly formed Jesuit priests in the public square. From those times of Shakespeare, we get the beginning of American immigration from England where Catholics were not allowed for years…..they were a tight ass group of fundamentalists

Though Caplight likes to align progressives today to some kind of utopian impulse from the New England Transcendentalists, he should remember what happened to Sir Thomas More who wrote “Utopia” under Henry VIII’s reign and was…..well, beheaded for refusing to accept the king’s desire to create his own Church of England.
Progressives today – especially the Wisconsin aligned Union brand – are much more with these early days of tyranny in the name of resistance. The Puritans were terrible tyrants in Shakespeare’s times and – if you know English history – the next century was even worse!

Progressivism today is as restrictive, exclusive, litmus-tested, academically suppressive of the flow of free ideas, judgmental, and dismissive of counter-arguments (as Apfelkuchen said in these comments: “the people who are at the sing-along’s really are not interested in debate with strangers from other states that are a tagging along with Althouse and Meade. The time for debates with conservatives is over, we know where they stand and don't care to even try to convince them to see the light anymore, waste of breath.” They are scary puritanical and believe in their moral superiority in every way. And they have time on their hands (thanks to tenured government wages that keep rolling in) to organize and plan things like the attack on Ann.

I am with Carol Herman – who is amazingly savvy, as usual. “What happened on August 12th was done by HIRED GOONS! They knew Ann. She was even identified in one maneuver.”
Thanks caplight for giving another point of view to the travesty that happened to Ann, her son and Meade (not the first one and probably not the last one – they really are being targeted in this college town with very small tolerance for diverse perspectives.

Ernest Hemingway described Oak Park Illinois (my own home town, an affluent suburb of Chicago) as a place with “large lawns and small minds”. Madison WI is becoming a version of this – a “college town with large loyalties to a unionized manifesto and small minds”.

traditionalguy said...

Kathy...Your last comment was excellent and well written. Thanks.

nevadabob said...

"Nevada Bob, I deleted that because you clearly had not bothered to read caplight's account. You began the thread with opinion carried over from the old posts on the subject. That's not fair to caplight and not the discussion I want here."

What a bullshit co-pout for your censoring of my comments.

Shame on you, Ann. You're everything you've ever fought against.

walter said...

I wonder if there is some scripture along the lines of "embrace the haircut when neighbors are getting scalped". I also wonder how many ministers could reverse decreased tithing by by blowing a vuvuzela and shouting Shame!

jimspice said...

Nine Democratic candidates: 244,978 votes

Nine Republican candidates: 238,527 votes

33 000 000 / (244 978 + 238 527) = 68.251621

Wow! $68.25 per vote. That's even more than to buy votes in the Iowa Straw Poll!

caplight said...

"I also wonder how many ministers could reverse decreased tithing by by blowing a vuvuzela and shouting Shame!"

So you're saying that the one good to come out of this crazy episode is that I may have discovered the key to congregational giving and I should hire Gray Shirt (who is probably unemployed) to blow his horn and shout shame to my church members.

Sounds like a win-win to me!

Bent Star said...

Let me see where do I start. I was a member actually officer of a state employees union for nearly 20 yrs. I had to be a member to have the job something that I feel violates my right of association. I became an officer just to see what happened above the steward level and it was not pretty. We were continual told we were lucky to have a job and the union did pretty much nothing. Now it is worse because the state law req. state employees to be union members but the leg determines all the pay and benefits. So the union dues are basically for nothing except to keep a certain party in power.
As far as state vs private pay I can safely say I am paid less than a similar position in the private sector. I have a brother with 15 yrs less experience working as a general accountant making a six figure income while the state pays me as a accountant supervisor about 55k, but we live with the consequences of our choices.
I am also a Christian and know that what the Kansas Preacher says is true. You see King David once had to make a sacrifice and the owner of the property offered to give him the land for the alter. His response was how could he offer to God that which cost Him nothing. Taking from one and giving to another is simply a form of stealing taking from all and providing a service for all is what government is for.
As for Christianity and politics not mixing who ever came up with that thought. Preachers and pastor were involved for the state in the country. The founders tried very hard to follow very Christian guidelines when est. this country. Please read Rodney Stark, Max Weber and Milton Friedman on the subject befor making such a foolish statement. Economics is the expression of philosophy in commerce, Adam Smith was first a social philosopher before going into economic.
I to would like to think that somewhere there are liberals that will join in something like an open discussion with conservative. Unfortuantely my experience is statement such as 1) there is nothing in common between your beleif system and mine; 2) you are to stupid to discuss politics. Realize both statements were from siblings, the 1st has a MBA from Harvard and the 2nd has an Associates degree while I have complete corse work on a PhD. So open discussions do not seem to be in the interest or liking of the liberal I am most closly associated with or any of the others I have met.
In closing, the unions may have been important at one time when management held all the cards, those days never lasted if they eer happened. The unions are what basically broke the auto industry and caused Boeing to flee Washington. As for public sector unions, I remember Reagan's responce to PATCO which was exceptional and appropriate, get back to work or be fired.