August 24, 2011

The earthquake knocked the crosses off the National Cathedral.

Is God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?

IN THE COMMENTS: Jerub-Baal said:
Except for the fact that the finials are not crosses, but a variation of the ballflower. In fact, the ones on the National Cathedral are even less like crosses than a typical French cathedral, where one could possibly be forgiven for thinking they are such
He links to some photographs, proving his point. I said:
The WSJ article says "The earthquake knocked off the cross-shaped finial stones on three of the four pinnacles that jut out from the top of the tower."

A cross is only a shape. If something is cross-shaped, it's a cross.

So... the WSJ is wrong, based on the photos, and the message from God is, once again, obscure.

58 comments:

chickenlittle said...

Is God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?

No. It tells me that the fastenings were weak to begin with. The question is, will someone fight putting them back up?

Carol_Herman said...

It knocked Cyrus Vance off stage. I thought the timing was complex. And, at least it had to make the maid feel good. True believers are always feeling their way around in the dark.

DADvocate said...

God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?

If so, a rather odd way to do it. Knocking crosses off of government buildings would be more direct.

Carol_Herman said...

Sherlock wouldn't discount the earthquake's ability to scatter Cyrus Vance off stage. As he saw his audience rise and leave his presser.

I heard him saying through the tumult "I come from Seattle. We have earthquakes, there. Find another room with a camera."

Of course, Twitter immediately followed with the knocked down white garden chair; talking about the "devastating damage."

Good for laughs.

chickenlittle said...

True believers are always feeling their way around in the dark.

The enlightened see no further than their own lamps allow.

ndspinelli said...

As the Church Lady would say, "Thank you..Satan."

Scott M said...

Is God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?

As much as He's telling us something about the top of the Washington monument, I suppose.

Carol_Herman said...

Meanwhile, in France, they must be in awe. They always said the Sofitel management knew who the hotel guest was. And, the call into Paris was placed ahead of the call to the NYPD.

So, as a parting shot, because the DA's office is furious with the Sofitel for "non-cooperation," to say the least ...

You're left with the picture of the Sofitel's room looking like a glzed doughnut soaking in semen stains.

And, off to the side, it was said the maid wore TWO pair of panty hose, and underpants. So she was not exactly dressed for business on the side, so to speak.

But the maid would wear two pairs of pantyhose as a defense against bedbugs, though. New York City is adrift in bedbugs.

But not in this particular Sofitel room. Or the earthquake would have been more intense.

You want the signal from the Cathedral? Perhaps, it's just Dealey Plaza, all over again. But as farce.

CIA on one side. Interpol on the other. And, the maid caught in the crossfire?

At least Ken Thompson's office really handles employment law. Since the maid's not out of the woods. But I think from the day Ken Thompson came on board, the questions he asked the maid ... in her replay ... had to do with specific managers at the Sofitel. And, how long it took them to decide "she should call the police."

Let Ken Thompson sue the Sofitel, for all I care. Money is money. This maid's been used "by professionals." And, she deserves some.

Oh. If you're going to stay at any hotel, wrap yoursleves in Saran Wrap before climbing into bed to go to sleep.

Do men really go into hotels to ejaculate against the wallpaper? I thought all maids had to deal with was the vomit from the extra wine. And, the pee ... when men don't open the lids. Or aim properly.

If the Sofitel were run as well as Disney? They'd have lawyered up the maid by themselves.

MadTownGuy said...

In a part of this country where the moral code is considerably less strict than the building codes, it certainly could be instructive.

wv: credil. Hey! I'm a believer...

AllenS said...

It's God's way of telling us to get rid of obama.

Carol_Herman said...

Cathedrals are Catholic, right?

How do these building types get designated? Size alone?

I've seen St. Patrick's inside. (As a tourist looking in.) I can't even remember if I saw pews.

While the Cathedral is "built on a tilt" ... the ground's not level.

From a geology class, long ago, I learned if the ground's not level, there's been earth movements upward. Which we call quakes. Some large. Some small. But it seems out crust is always moving.

That no one really got hurt, and we can laugh about it, is a sign that God laughs. And, he wants us to laugh, too.

edutcher said...

He's probably telling us to put more religion in public life, not take it out.

He put the crosses where everyone could touch them.

Carol_Herman said...

Sherlock wouldn't discount the earthquake's ability to scatter Cyrus Vance off stage. As he saw his audience rise and leave his presser.

Probably not, but he was at the dog park, getting beaned by a squirrel.

traditionalguy said...

God said that in the last days he would shake all things so that what cannot be shaken will appear.

Human institutions are being shaken down all around us:
Banks
Social security and pension plans
Unions
Sexual morality
Japan
Egypt
Libya
Medical care systems
National monuments and Cathedrals.
The higher education bubble, soon.
Europe


So what will remain standing and act with courage in these perilous times?

Maybe Israel?

Jerub-Baal said...

Except for the fact that the finials are not crosses, but a variation of the ballflower. In fact, the ones on the National Cathedral are even less like crosses than a typical French cathedral, where one could possibly be forgiven for thinking they are such

Marc Benton Photography, National Cathedral

AJ Lynch said...

No. Though it has provided certain irreligous bloggers with an opportunity to make with the weak snark.

AJ Lynch said...

Btw- I thought our bridges and roads were in such poor shape. Why didn't any collapse in yesterday's quake?

ndspinelli said...

Carol Herman, The National Cathedral is Episcopalian, not Catholic. But..just keep shooting from the hip. Consider changing your name to Annie Oakley.

Jerub-Baal said...

and re: Ms. Herman, the National Cathedral is Episcopalian... FYI

MikeR said...

"Is God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?" Yes, definitely. But do we have to listen?

Andrea said...

"Is God telling us something--?"

No. It was an earthquake. They aren't uncommon in this region. Get over yourselves.

Carol_Herman said...

Episcopalian, huh?

That's ANGLICAN. But we changed the name when we had out 1776 Revolution.

The "connection" then to Catholicism is that Henry VIII created the Anglican Church. Dispensed with the Pope. But the ceremonies are very high art. And, of course, the priests can marry.

Now, to repeat my question:

When does a church become a cathedral?

Carol_Herman said...

The Queen of England is the head of the Anglican Church.

Whose the head of the Episcopalian one?

Christopher in MA said...

Lord, I can't believe I'm actually responding to a Carol Herman post. However, in the interest of nomenclature:

Churches are churches, in that they all have altars and the Sacraments can be performed there. However, in ascending order:

Chapels: places where prayer and Mass may be said, but the Church has not sanctioned their particular construction. If it has, then it is called an -

Oratory: a building other than a parish church which is set aside by the for prayer and Mass.

Church: fairly obvious.

Cathedral: the central and most important church of a diocese. It is where the bishop has his throne (cathedra, in the Latin).

Basilica: A basilica is designated as such by the Pope because of the church's historical or spiritual significance. A basilica may also be a cathedral, but once given the designation "basilica," it can never be removed.

Fr Martin Fox said...

What has the National Cathedral to do with "separation of church and state"?

Does someone think the government owns and operates the cathedral?

It is true that, if you visit the cathedral, you might wonder if they think they are an established church, but so what?

Paul said...

No God is telling us he took the last train to the coast...

And it's Bye Bye American Pie...

Cause we spent all the money and now the well is dry.

Scott M said...

Whose the head of the Episcopalian one?

Joe Episcopo. Massive roid-pumped guns and all.

Ann Althouse said...

By the way, my question assumed that God's message was that the National Cathedral has mixed church and state and He is opposed to that.

It's an Episcopal Church, by the way. If there were and established national church in the U.S., it would be Episcopal... right?

Cedarford said...

Trad guy -
"So what will remain standing and act with courage in these perilous times?
Maybe Israel?"
=================

If by acting with courage you mean grabbing more land, yes, Israel is acting with "courage".

But Israel's doting Uncle Sugar Daddy is falling on hard times. Nervous little Israel sees that Uncle Sugar Daddy, that gave all that money and support ..is looking a little threadbare, paint's peeling off Sugar Daddy's house..

Israel? Remain standing if Europe, and Uncle Sugar Daddy America fall to Muslim demography and Free Trade with China? Not likely. The Latins & Soviets backed Israel too, but those bridges were burned long ago.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Ann:

Yes, the Episcopal Church was established in many of the original states at one time.

As a Catholic priest, it would be tempting for me to infer a divine message in this case, but...I'll leave that to Pat Robertson.

traditionalguy said...

Carol...A church becomes a Cathedral when it is where the Bishop resides.

Episcopos means a church ruled over by Bishops, and eventually a national church ruled over by a king's appointed Archbishop (ersatz-Pope).

They never need to vote sine only one vote counts. So the American experience has tended towards Presbyterians and Baptists who demand to have a vote on everything.

I remember in Atlanta the old and wealthy Episcopal Church was in midtown (my family's roots since 1890).

But the Bishop wanted to aim for a congregation of the wealthier people in Buckhead, so he made the existing churches collect the money to build him a bigger better located Cathedral.

No votes were taken. But we were being Overseen for or own good.

The Drill SGT said...

Fr Martin Fox said...
It is true that, if you visit the cathedral, you might wonder if they think they are an established church, but so what?


Father, I think you, Ann and I can perhaps agree that, in 1907, the Episcopal leadership that laid the foundation most likely thought they were the national church.
Not that the Catholics or the Baptists bought into that.

traditionalguy said...

The National Cathedral talk means the Episcopal church in DC.

The longing for the old days of relationship to the King of England has never gone away in certain traditional places.

I recall that William & Mary (in Williamsburg) was founded by a grant of a royal charter about 1699 ( By William and Mary who were then reigning), and to this day they are overseen by a ritual visit by the Prime Minister of England.

gerry said...

The Washington Monument is cracked.

The National Cqathedral finials fefll off, and the Washington Monument cracked. Hmmm.

WV: bluff. No kidding. I won't call His bluff!

Carol_Herman said...

No, edutcher, at 9:58AM

Surely, you joke about the squirrel beaning Cyrus Vance.

Because, as soon as the earthquake news broke ... there was this clip up at the NY Post. Of the Cyrus Vance "presser." He got out one sentence. When the building shook.

Then, as the entire room rose up and left the building ... Cyrus Vance was seen exiting stage left ... SAYING: "I COME FROM SEATTLE. I KNOW EARTHQUAKES. LET'S FIND ANOTHER ROOM WITH A CAMERA."

So much for Cyrus Vance and God meeting at the shaking experience of an earthquake. That was local. Wasn't global.

But it was "unusual." For the area.

They say in comedy, timing is everything.

Carol_Herman said...

Thanks to those that responded describing how a Cathedral houses the Bishop.

I really didn't know!

Good for the additions, too, of places to pray. And, where the officials stand. (This is true in Temples as well. The rabbi is either standing or sitting up on a raised platform. But he doesn't live in the building. Sure. There's an office there. Or how else would you book catering jobs?)

Carol_Herman said...

Where did George Washington and Thomas Jefferson go to pray when they were in DC?

Carol_Herman said...

For some reason, "once upon a time," I was led to believe that there were only 5 Cathedrals across all of America.

Whereas, in Europe, Cathedrals are "a dime a dozen." Yes. Architectural marvels. Given how old some of them are.

Now? Don't know if they work (there) as a belief system, or just tourist attractions?

I'm not so sure the American Cathedrals are ... (Except maybe the glass one in San Diego?)

Is Pat Robertson still alive?

Trooper York said...

Carol Herman.....
I've seen St. Patrick's inside. (As a tourist looking in.) I can't even remember if I saw pews.

You really are a moron.

The Drill SGT said...

Carol said...Whereas, in Europe, Cathedrals are "a dime a dozen."
pure speculation.

They may still call the church a Cathedral, if it once was one, even if the Bishopric has moved to some other town and there is a Cathedral there now with a Bishop in it.

couple of thousand years, with population shifts could yield a lot of cathedrals

Trooper York said...

Carol_Herman said...
Where did George Washington and Thomas Jefferson go to pray when they were in DC?

Washington DC didn't exist when George was Preisdent and Jefferson was a deist who never went to church.

You really are a moron.

traditionalguy said...

Until they got a nation and Constitution started and built a capital up river, the Virginians worshiped at the Episcopal, Bruton Parish church in Williamsburg a hundred yards from the W&M College frontgate.

Some pews were reserved as family pews such as George Mason, James Madison and lesser members such as Jefferson, and Washington that you mentioned had to sit where they found a seat.

MadisonMan said...

..and it wasn't even a big one. What would something a little more robust have done?

The Drill SGT said...

traditionalguy said...
Some pews were reserved as family pews such as George Mason, James Madison and lesser members such as Jefferson, and Washington that you mentioned had to sit where they found a seat.


any evidence of that?

From their history, they say:The names on the pew doors of parish leaders and famous patriots who worshipped here, including U.S. presidents Washington, Jefferson, and Monroe, remind us of the prominent role Bruton played in colonial history.

that sounds like G Washington slept here, rather than he was a member of the vestry.

My point is that most of those folks lived days away by horse. madison, monroe and jefferson were in charlotteville, 110 miles west and mason and Washingotn were 120 miles north.

that's 4 days over and 4 days back. You'd be going to church all week at that rate.

did they attend when they came to tthe colonial capital for business, sure. was it their Parish church?

nope

traditionalguy said...

Drill Sgt....I have sat in the pews of Mason and Madison with their brass name plates on the end.

To me the "members" of the Episcopal Church are all baptized Episcopalians. They have no official membership lists needed since they seldom vote on anything, and then it is only congregants to elect a vestry.

You are correct that the four day journey from Mt.Vernon and Charlotteville kept Jefferson and Washington away except for the political season when the House of Burgesses met in Virginia's Capital of Williamsburg and the Royal Governor was inviting select men to banquets at the Mansion that they really needed to attend.

The recent earthquake may have been Washington and Jefferson rolling over in their graves.

Then the long journey you cite meant that they stayed in town and attended Church at Bruton Parrish Church until the season ended.

Carol_Herman said...

Well, when do churches come to DC, then?

I think when 9/11 happened, there was an old church nearby ... that had been used (or had been built) AND was used by our Founding Fathers.

Would I know?

I'm not Christian.

And, it's not moronic to be curious.

While ad hominems are par for the course around here. Doesn't enhance your stature to use them.

traditionalguy said...

Carol...you are the straight woman for today's history. The St Paul's Chapel of Trinity Church is at 211 Broadway across from Wall Street where Washington took the oath as the first President, and President washington had his own pew there.

It was undamaged on 9/11 although it is only 300 feet from the WTC. Go figure.

You should go see it and learn some more history of the Covenant Country.

Nora said...

If God is saying something, it's that these finials were not anchored as they should be.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Drill Sgt:

Yep.

Kensington said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kensington said...

"[Who is] the head of the Episcopalian [Church]?"

Howard Dean.

Jose_K said...

But the angel fell but did not break
http://www.lapatilla.com/site/2011/08/24/un-angel-cayo-de-la-catedral-de-washington-y-quedo-intacto-fotos/

Ann Althouse said...

"Except for the fact that the finials are not crosses, but a variation of the ballflower. In fact, the ones on the National Cathedral are even less like crosses than a typical French cathedral, where one could possibly be forgiven for thinking they are such."

The WSJ article says "The earthquake knocked off the cross-shaped finial stones on three of the four pinnacles that jut out from the top of the tower."

A cross is only a shape. If something is cross-shaped, it's a cross.

So... the WSJ is wrong, based on the photos, and the message from God is, once again, obscure.

Conserve Liberty said...

There is so much wrong with this entire thread I've debated even starting a reply for an entire day.

Blogger ate my first attempt.

1. The "National Cathedral" refers to the Cathedral Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, the Seat of the Presiding Bishop of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. "National" has nothing to do with the nation. It is the national headquarters (church) of the ECUSA. The United States paid nothing for the construction of the cathedral; it does sit on the highest point in D.C., thus it is used for state funerals - that is all.

2. The queen is not the head of ECUSA.

3. The Anglican Communion is comprised of 19 member denominations around the globe who share the general liturgy of the Anglican Church.

4. Educate yourselves. Look it up on Wikipedia..

Trooper York said...

Carol Herman doesn't know the difference between Thomas Jeffersona and George Jefferson.

And baseball is the greatest game ever in the history of mankind.

David R. Graham said...

"It's an Episcopal Church, by the way. If there were and established national church in the U.S., it would be Episcopal... right?"

No, it would be Church of England, directly subordinate to the British Monarch via the Archbishop of Canterbury. The success of the Revolution aborted that possibility.

Most CofE clergy returned to the UK after the Revolution or went to Canada. Those who stayed included no bishops, who alone in CofE tradition could ordain priests (i.e., carry on the ministry of the church)

No UK or Canadian bishop would ordain an American priest bishop after the Revolution, on pain of dismissal, defrocking or death, so CofE priests who were American patriots sent a peer named Seabury to Scotland to ask the titular CofE bishops there to consecrate him bishop. Being not liable to UK monarchical sanction, they did, Seabury returned to America in apostolic succession of Scottish CofE lineage and consecrated American bishops from CofE clergy patriots in the same lineage.

(Apostolic succession of clergy via bishops is crucial in all three episcopal/catholic faces of the Church: Greek/Russian, Roman and Anglican.)

To distinguish themselves from the CofE, the American patriot of CofE lineage bishops and priests called themselves episcopalians, which was also Scottish usage and is to this day, because episcopal government was the form of ecclesial organization to which they were accustomed and dedicated.

After many decades, the Episcopal
Church in the USA and the CofE (i.e., British Monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury) kissed and made up emotionally but did not unite organizationally. They comprise now the world-wide (and in all regions but African radically contracting) "Anglican Communion." That grouping has no unitary structure or authority, as does, for example, the Roman Catholic Church.

In the USA today, the so-called Episcopal Church (ECUSA) is an arm of left-wing politics and propaganda. Its leadership is aggressively secular and focused pretty much exclusively on non-traditional sexuality advocacy.

Until WWII, most US military officers were Episcopalians. Many if not most senior federal bureaucrats were as well. Many of those were, in addition, Masons. Until after WWII, all Chiefs of Staff of the United States Army were Episcopalians. The great Marine Three-Star Victor "Brute" Krulak hid his Russian Jewish ancestry and reported himself an Episcopalian. His wife was and his eldest son became an Episcopalian priest in the US Navy Chaplin Corps.

Carol's questions have been answered by others. The important question of the word "National" in the name "National Cathedral" also has been addressed.

Trooper York, would you please stop trash talking Carol. She is asking sincere questions, she comes from outside ECUSA and the Church, and she deserves to be answered directly on her questions and fairly to her personhood. You are not doing that.

FYI, the Roman Catholic Church maintains a cathedral church in D.C. named American Cathedral.

Father Fox, thank you for keeping an eye on matters here. Conservative Liberty, thanks to you, too.

David R. Graham said...

"Is God telling us something about the need for the separation of church and state?"

No, when God tells one or more something, He is direct, unmistakable and puts His Name on it. He does not send anonymous anything.

"Signs" are for lunatics, by lunatics, such as astrologers. God is clear as crystal and without ambiguity. When/if He speaks to you, you will not be in doubt as to who you heard. God does not require media to reach me or anyone or anything.

As is known, "separation of church and state" is not Constitutional language. Only seculars and other anti-Christians (Jefferson was one) relish the phrase.

As is also known, the phrase aimed to stop the possibility of violations of religious law being violations of civil law. That is, of putting the power of the state -- specifically to tax and to punish -- behind the man in the pulpit.

Throughout Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian and Zoroastrian histories state-sponsored terrorism in the name of religion (or, religion-sponsored terrorism in the name of the state) has reared its demonic head for various durations. Each of those religions, however, and especially Judaism and Christianity, has inherent a self-correcting antidote to that evil. And that antidote always rises to eliminate the poison of state-sponsored religion or religion-sponsored state.

In Judaism and Christianity we call it "the Prophetic Principle." It states that no mundane structure merits ultimate concern. The other religions, except one, accomplish that end from other directions.

Mohammedanism -- or what is mis-named Islam -- is unique among religions in having no inherent self-correcting antidote to the evil of religious authority united with civil authority. In fact, Mohammedanism revels in the identity of these two realms and announces that singularity as sole authority world-wide from beginning unto ending and beyond.

Mohammedanism, in fact, makes the unity of religion and government co-terminus with the unity (i.e., aseity) of God. This makes Mohammedanism ("Islam") violent, vicious, vivid, voracious and voluble. Altogether a supremely nasty article, and ugly into the bargain. Mohammed did not intend what passes for his work today.

tree hugging sister said...

Darth Vader made it through the quake safely, even if the more expansive cathedral parts did not.

The Force was with him, not against him.

Trooper York said...

David R Graham said.....
Trooper York, would you please stop trash talking Carol. She is asking sincere questions, she comes from outside ECUSA and the Church, and she deserves to be answered directly on her questions and fairly to her personhood. You are not doing that."

Carol Herman hates baseball. So she is clearly the Anti-Christ.