July 12, 2011

Will any of the "fake Democrats" — AKA "protest Democrats" — win in the Wisconsin recall primaries today?

They might!
Mordecai Lee, a University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee political scientist, says "single-digit turnouts" are possible, which he thinks tend to skew more conservative than higher turnouts.
Single-digit turnout?! As they say around here, "this is what democracy looks like."
Though Tuesday's elections are Democratic primaries, Republicans can cross over and vote in them because Wisconsin's open primary law allows it.
Do you think they should? Or would that somehow be wrong?
Most political observers don't expect any of the fake Democrats to win primaries against the Republican senators' real Democratic challengers, though Lee said a couple of weeks ago that the real Democrats faced a real risk of losing. He said lesser-known candidates Moore and former Oshkosh Deputy Mayor Jessica King might be especially vulnerable. King is the real Democrat challenging Sen. Randy Hopper (R-Fond du Lac).
As I said yesterday, I agree with Meade, who wrote:
As Mrs. Stapleton said to Fred Clark (the Undemocratic Party District 14 candidate for senate), "it's a crime" that these recalls are happening at all. The cynical true purpose of these recall elections is to reverse the democratic expression of the voters in last November's general election. A vote for the so-called "fake" primary candidate tomorrow is a vote against the recall election itself - a waste of time and money and an insult to all Wisconsin citizens.

182 comments:

SteveR said...

I've never liked the open primary system. This is a good example why.

chickenlittle said...

Do you think they should? Or would that somehow be wrong?

Ethics is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. Many are looking at these elections, so running a "fake" candidate is not unethical. Is running a "fake" candidate against some rule? I asked garage mahal that the other day.....


....crickets.

____________
wv = "tvrot" A 20th century neurological and social malady first recorded in the mid-1950s.

TosaGuy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TosaGuy said...

It won't happen, but the opportunities for petard hoisting are simply too good not to wish for it too happen.

Ren said...

Althouse, you are an obnoxious moron. Then again, so is Meade. It's not a crime to have a recall. In fact, it's all part of the Democratic process, something you "claim" to be for. If voters in WI want a recall, they are legally entitled to it.

Go back to taking shitty pictures of flowers and pretending you're not a conservative hack.

Scott M said...

Republicans can cross over and vote in them because Wisconsin's open primary law allows it.

Since I was old enough to understand primaries (some time last year, in fact), I have never understood why it's allowed for anyone to vote in a particular party's primary.

gerry said...

My state permits switching parties in primaries. You can be challenged and all, but it's no big deal.

SunnyJ said...

These are the checks and balances in our system..it is an open primary...for both sides. Recalls can are are being abused. Are you saying the original abuse of the recall is somehow a "lesser than" abuse of the system than running a protest candidate and voting for them?

Why not trust the system, instead of trying to maniputlate it. Why not let both the abusive recalls occur and let the protest candidates run and let the citizens decide?

Why is our first option always to rule out allowing the process to take place and trusting the us to figure it out? That is so "progressive" in its root belief that we can't handle it.

Am I the only person that thought it was nitpicking to call Fred Clark out on his telephone recorded slap or to report it...until I actually heard it? That is not the voice of someone joking, just frustrated and making a light threat...listen to it, the guy is sounds threatening and very intimidating. Tone is everything.
Makes me wonder more about the Bradley/Prosser mix up.

gregq said...

It is appalling that the Wisconsin Republican Party isn't doing everything in its power to promote the "fake" candidates. They should be doing a full court press for every one, for just the reasons you stated.

Synova said...

I disagree strongly with the "open primary" idea. Who decided this was a good thing? Somehow I'm nearly certain it wasn't conservatives who pushed for open primaries.

Primaries are supposed to be for the political parties to chose their candidates, and why should anyone who isn't in the party have a say in that? Either join the party or make your own party. And who cares *how* a party you're not a part of chooses who they will endorse? If it's a cigar smoke filled back room or an open election?

Carol_Herman said...

If it's "single digit turnout" ... prepare to hear a re-run of Kloppenhoppen's "200-hundred vote margin speech."

Even holding garlic up isn't going to rid us of the vampire contagion.

I'll bet the winning ballot boxes are already stacked in the back room!

On the other hand?

If more than "single digits" show up ... they'll run out of ballots!

If that doesn't work?

They'll run out of pencils.

(Even though I'm not allowed to say Rupert Murdoch's name; I will say this: I admire his leadership! He saw a problem. And, he fired off all the journalists ... who thought they'd sqat "on the World" ... to undercut his leadership.

Where are they now?

And, will they ever get hired, again?

The smell of real fear ... begins when someone like Rupert Murdoch shows up. So far in Wisconsin? Poor Justice Prosser is accused of being the heavy-weight champ of choke-holds.

I want to see real choke-holds, ahead. Best way to then deliver a noogie.

Thorley Winston said...

I've never liked the open primary system.

Me neither, I’ve never crossed over to vote in a DFL primary even when the Republican candidate had no real challenger. IMO primaries should be (a) conducted at the expense of the political parties and not the taxpayers who (b) should have the right to limit them only to their members.

AJ Lynch said...

I am against open primaries. Why should anyone be allowed to vote in a party or group when they are not a member.

That said, I think the political parties should pay the cost of primary elections since it's the parties' election not the general electorate's.

traditionalguy said...

Re-calls seem so unnecessary. So it moves the elections up a year for the House.

And isn't the Senate supposed to function as a counterbalance to a mob mentality over a hot issues du jour?

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
.




A NEW Pathetic Voice speaks up….the SMALL Pathetic Voice was bad enough, but the New One, with its angry over-the-top name calling is worse…still I imagine the new Pathetic voice doesn’t have its own blog….mayhap it could start one where it could spew its hatred and vitriol on fewer folks.

Chip S. said...

"Single-digit turnout" sounds like an obscene gesture.

Canuck said...

I think the people of those districts should vote however they wish. Strategic voting can be a moral choice.

The people should be given more, not less chances to vote. Open primaries allow another chance for the people to express their political will.

But I am not particularly respectful of political parties, as such, and support the concept of open primaries.

chickenlittle said...

Since I was old enough to understand primaries (some time last year, in fact), I have never understood why it's allowed for anyone to vote in a particular party's primary.

Well years ago people mostly grew up in either an (R) or a (D) family, right down to which newspaper you read. Then came to challenge to this Coke v. Pepsi paradigm and the vaunted "independent" came to the fore. How are registered "independents" supposed to vote? Should they even vote in primaries? Here in California, I'm still not allowed to vote for certain candidates in certain primaries because I'm not a party member. And I'm OK with that.

The problem isn't Kansas anymore, it's what's wrong with Wisconsin?

traditionalguy said...

Carol...About the language used so easily here, "chokeholds" are neither hands on the neck nor a side headlock.

They are a martial art weapon which reaches around from the victim's back with a bar arm leveraging against the larynx with a force sufficient to make the larynx spasm and stops the all breathing.

Unless an emergency tracheotomy is performed within minutes, they are 100% fatal, as they are designed and intended to be.

cubanbob said...

Ren said...
Althouse, you are an obnoxious moron. Then again, so is Meade. It's not a crime to have a recall. In fact, it's all part of the Democratic process, something you "claim" to be for. If voters in WI want a recall, they are legally entitled to it.

Go back to taking shitty pictures of flowers and pretending you're not a conservative hack.

7/12/11 11:53 AM

Besides the fact that your comment simply identifies you as an asshole tell us if the republicans survive the recall election intact and the democrats lose one or two of the gang of fourteen, will you be respectful of the will of the people? I doubt it.

Scott M said...

"Single-digit turnout" sounds like an obscene gesture.

You have to use a sex toy that looks like Jodie Foster's hand.

Col Mustard said...

Open primaries are likely to bite Republicans in the ass next year. If there is no credible challenge to Obama, Dems will be able to create a lot of mischief in the GOP nominating process.

Chip S. said...

The usual objections to open primaries do not apply in this case, because there's an additional way people might want to vote, which is to vote in opposition to the entire notion of a recall.

If I'm simply opposed to the idea of a recall election, how can I register that opinion?

1. Don't sign a recall petition. The overwhelming majority of Wisconsin voters did not sign recall petitions. Yet enough did do so that the recalls were authorized.

2. Don't vote in a recall election. It looks like the overwhelming majority of Wisconsin voters will not vote today. Yet, a majority of the tiny minority that does vote will determine the outcome in each election.

3. Vote for a "fake" candidate. This tactic, and only this tactic, stops a recall attempt in its tracks. And when a "fake" candidate's campaign consists of declarations like this:

"Your vote for Isaac Weix in the July 12th primary election IS a vote for Sheila!",

then there's nothing "fake" or "stealthy" about the candidacy. It's a perfectly clear alternative that is not otherwise available to voters who want to put a stop to what they may perceive as idiocy.

TMink said...

This is what politics looks like. It is different from democracy, it smells worse and is more focused on power.

Trey

TMink said...

Ren, it is nice to have a tolerant liberal on board to spread love and acceptance.

You people are a complete sham, and we know it. But remember, I am praying for you. Really. 8)

Trey

timmaguire42 said...

What's fake about these candidates? Would they not rather win than lose? Seriously, what's fake about them?

As for open primaries, the federal constitution and probably all state constitutions are silent on the issue of party. Parties exist, are even vital to the mechanics of coalition building, but they have no legitimate official standing with the government.

So unless the party is running and (especially) funding the primary, then the closed primary is fraud.

Karl said...

My folks are in district 32 and plan to vote for Kapanke.
Mom told me they early voted in the dem primary.
They voted for Schilling - because they were told by some campaign operative that if they voted for Smith (the pseudo dem) they wouldn't be allowed to vote for Kapanke in the recall.
Mom is 100% convinced of this. Since they already voted, I just let it go.

edutcher said...

Operation Chaos, anyone?

Only about 16 - 20 states have open or semi-open primaries, most of which seem to be inheritors of the tradition of Republican Progressivism a century ago.

May have seemed like a good idea then, but not so much now.

chickenlittle said...

Synova said...
I disagree strongly with the "open primary" idea. Who decided this was a good thing? Somehow I'm nearly certain it wasn't conservatives who pushed for open primaries.

Your tone reminds me of the franchise nature of political parties. We do think it "wrong" for non members to partake in the franchise. At the risk of conjoining two or more Althouse comment threads, I submit that something akin to this sentiment is behind many people's objections to changes in the "franchise" of marriage: marriage is for members only. If we expand the franchise to include same sex couples, wouldn't we all feel cheated if straight people started marrying each other willy-nilly who weren't actually in love, i.e., weren't true believers in the institution as it has traditionaly been defined?

______
wv = "reqvxquo" No clue but it sounds latinate.

Carol_Herman said...

Traditionalguy, I guess your description of "choke-hold" on its face would have been impossible for Justice Prosser to do. He's short. The lady's got him by about 7" ...

So, besides Bradley LYING about "choke-hold" in the first place ...

I'll disregard that.

In my yoot, the choke-hold led to the noogie. Your head was inside the vise. And, both your ears got covered with arm flesh. Then, with the other hand. And, the "choke-holdee" bent double at the waist ... a noogie was given. And, then you were let go. So you could go on with your day. No bruising was involved, here.

But if you want to use your interpretation of a choke-hold ... designed as martial arts. To kill people ... Justice Prosser would have had to stand on a soap-box ... just to reach Bradley's neck.

Instead of getting Bradley down ... Bradley would have had an advantage if she just jumped up. Forcing Justice Prosser to let go. You could be injured if your legs no longer touch the floor. Or the top of your soap-box. He could have been tossed off her back ... the same way a pony can decide the rider no longer needs a comfortable seat.

Meanwhile, this election "could have" some bad outcomes in store for the democraps? Lots of union folk might not come back from the beach ... or the lake front ... or Vegas ... to cast a vote, here?

Whatever. Only the voting folk will make an impact. Unless there are some full boxes of votes ... that will cancel out those votes ... collected at the polls, today.

Off topic:

Did you know in New York City, where there's going to be a special election in Anthony Weiner's district ... Old Mayor Koch came out and TOLD PEOPLE to vote for the REPUBLICAN! How good is that? The story is in the NY Post.

k*thy said...

Ethics is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. Many are looking at these elections, so running a "fake" candidate is not unethical. Is running a "fake" candidate against some rule?

Not against the rules, but also not ethical. If Walker had more transparent with on his proposed CB changes - either campaigning on it or introducing it in a manner which allowed time for public debate and testimony...instead of how he proceeded, there'd be no recalls today - it'd be just another day in politics. Yawn.

Hagar said...

If the parties have no standing with the Federal and State governments, the Federal and State governments should not have anything whatsoever to do with conducting primary elections.

Original Mike said...

"As for open primaries, the federal constitution and probably all state constitutions are silent on the issue of party. Parties exist, are even vital to the mechanics of coalition building, but they have no legitimate official standing with the government.

So unless the party is running and (especially) funding the primary, then the closed primary is fraud."


This. If a party wants to select their candidate at a convention, attended by only party memebers, fine. But if they expect to use the funds and the mechanisms of government, I demand that I get a vote.

Chip S. said...

Not against the rules, but also not ethical.

What's unethical about saying "A vote for me is a vote for the incumbent"? You seem to be taking this term "fake" at face value, when in fact it's merely a rhetorical device.

A "real" fake candidate would actually lie about his party affiliation.

garage mahal said...

You people are a complete sham, and we know it.

At least we don't have to run fake candidates to try to win. I would expect nothing less from the asshat Republicans in this state.

I was #352 at my polling place, three times the expected turnout according to them.

Carol_Herman said...

You know, if you look at how McCain got selected in 2008 ... you'd see how the republican convention LACKED HAVING anyone from cross-over country present.

It still amazes me that this jerk could sell "that" room on the idea ... even though none of them there liked him all that much ...

That McCain would be a shoo-in over Obama because ... well, white Americans wouldn't vote for Obama.

And, all the Hillary voters were in his pocket.

While he smooched the press ... and said they all loved him.

Calling in all those "they's" led the stupid party down its proverbial garden path.

Crossing over in primaries, however, are a gangbuster way to let Independents ... into the back room games.

I just wish more Americans voted more often.

Voting isn't a test! You're not graded on being right or wrong! You're just one person fucking lucky to be in America. And, a citizen.

There's no downside. Except when good American citizens stay home.

traditionalguy said...

Having Ren comment continuous personal slurs against the two Meadehouse musketeers is quite a compliment.

Thinking that Soros and his buds are wasting their money to pay Ren warms my heart.

When the flak gets intense, then you know that you are over the target.

Ren really needs to up his game. He could practice by attacking Newsweek for not attacking Palin as hard as it could have.

From now on every attack needs to be double harsh to save the farce Presidency of Barak H Obama.

Hagar said...

In 1840 the American Whigs made the mistake of "reaching out" to the Democrats by including John Tyler (too) on their ticket. When General Harrison promptly died, that wound up with Tyler seeeking refuge with the Democrats, and the Whigs called a convention and formally read him out of the party.
So, back then anyway, parties were still considered private organizations rather than public utilities.

Chip S. said...

I just wish more Americans voted more often.

Certainly Wisconsin is trying to give them every opportunity. It's the election-of-the-month state.

Original Mike said...

Where do you live, garage? There aren't any recall elections in the Madison area, are there?

Widmerpool said...

Looky what we're doing here in very very blue Massachusetts:

Mass is Wisc!

Shanna said...

Is running a "fake" candidate against some rule?

What makes these candidates faker than all other politicians?

Recalls have not previously been used just because you dislike the outcome of the last election. "single digit" turnouts are a very good reason why they shouldnt' be. In fact, their ought to be a damn good reason to run a recall election, since it costs the taxpayer money and forces people to go out and vote AGAIN when they already did it at the appropriate time.

I think there aught to be stricter laws about when an off season election can be held.

Chip S. said...

garage votes wherever the SEIU bus takes him.

Original Mike said...

As far as I'm concerned, primaries are to select the top two candidates for the general election. Party has nothing to do with it. If a party wants to close their election to the general public, they can damn well run, and fund, their primary themselves.

Original Mike said...

"garage votes wherever the SEIU bus takes him."

That's what I'm wondering. Photo ID can't come soon enough.

garage mahal said...

@Original Mike
I'm in the 48th. The only race on the ballot was for Joe Parisi's old assembly seat. All Democrats on the ballot.

chickenlittle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

About their Democrat alliance, at least Ed Koch is first a rational Jew. Many more should soon join him.

PaulV said...

It is all fun and games. It is what democracy looks like.

Original Mike said...

Recall districts

Scott M said...

I'm in the 48th. The only race on the ballot was for Joe Parisi's old assembly seat. All Democrats on the ballot.

Given that, it seems a bit odd that there would be 3x the expected turnout then if things in your district were so uncontroversial.

Chip S. said...

All Democrats on the ballot.

I see that your precinct has perfected this election stuff.

chickenlittle said...

Voting isn't a test! You're not graded on being right or wrong! You're just one person fucking lucky to be in America. And, a citizen.

I dunno Carol. There are otherwise reasonable people here who strongly argue for things like voting "for" a candidate and then stating that what they really meant was to vote "against" another. Call me old fashioned but I never learned that nuanced tactic in civics. I learned that we should seek out and always vote for something we believed in. Otherwise it's either just passive aggression or cowardice, which I, having long suffered to overcome in myself, cannot respect.

David said...

Green Bay Press Gazette online this morning says turnout is very slow. Also quoted several voters as annoyed that there was an election. Were they annoyed at the primary, or at the recall in general? It did not say.

But with turnout this low, the outcome is unpredictable.

Curious George said...

k*thy said...

Not against the rules, but also not ethical. If Walker had more transparent with on his proposed CB changes - either campaigning on it or introducing it in a manner which allowed time for public debate and testimony...instead of how he proceeded, there'd be no recalls today - it'd be just another day in politics. Yawn.
Laughable. There was a RECORD AMOUNT of public debate and testimony. These recalls are not about the amount of debate, but the results. You really have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

chickenlittle said...

But if they expect to use the funds and the mechanisms of government, I demand that I get a vote.

Let's privatize government!

jeff said...

If this was a regular election, I wouldn't even consider crossing over. I figure whoever the other side wants to represent them is none of my business. OTOH, if the other side just wants to do elections like the '72 Olympic Russian basketball team, then I might rethink that position.

garage mahal said...

Given that, it seems a bit odd that there would be 3x the expected turnout then if things in your district were so uncontroversial.

Encouraging to me.

Some right-to-life group is running robocalls telling voters not to vote, that an abstentee ballot are in the mail. Par for the course.

Chip S. said...

@chickenlittle:

Someone is asked why he chose chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla, when offered a choice between the two. Here are some possible answers:

1. I prefer chocolate to vanilla.

2. I dislike vanilla.

3. I like chocolate best of all.

All three describe the exact same choice. #1 is tautological. #2 allows for the possibility that the person prefers, say, strawberry to chocolate. #3 implies that the person will always choose chocolate.

Why is reason 3 morally superior to reason 2?

Carol_Herman said...

Chip S @ 12:47PM

If Wisconsin were really an "Election-A-Month" state ... you could design a calendar around this! Each month allotted picture slot could go to a happy candidate.

The date could be circled. Maybe, even holidays, declared?

It's not a chore to vote! Even better to vote "absentee" ... since you get your ballots in the mail, ahead of time. I love this system! It's better than getting free lottery tickets.

Original Mike said...

"I figure whoever the other side wants to represent them is none of my business."

I don't have a "side". Seriously. Though it is true that I vote Republican much more often than Democrat, I am not affiliated with the Republican party. I am an independent and I don't appreciate being told by the closed party crowd that I can't participate when the government is holding an election.

roesch-voltaire said...

Herman says: The smell of real fear ... begins when someone like Rupert Murdoch shows up. I guess she wants our elections to be full of wire taping, paying off the police, false impersonations, obtaining medical and financial records illegally, rather then just mild reporting on the cost of wine drunk by Paul Ryan. When a right-wing voter wishes for a real choke hold in the persona of Murdoch, I realize just how sane and necessary this re-call election is.

Original Mike said...

"Some right-to-life group is running robocalls telling voters not to vote, that an abstentee ballot are in the mail."

You received such a call?

Chip S. said...

@Carol: Better yet, how about an election a day?

Hell, just get rid of the legislature and institute direct democracy. Everybody can just vote on every proposal online. Then the capitol building could be rented out for sleepovers.

Writ Small said...

What's fake about these candidates? Would they not rather win than lose? Seriously, what's fake about them?

Democrats are having a primary to see which Democrat they will put up against the incumbent Republican in the recall election. Some Republicans have entered these open Democrat primaries in an effort to abort the process.

Agree or disagree with the tactic, it is fair to call those Republicans "'fake' Democrats." They hope to win as Democrats when they are not, in fact, Democrats.

"Protest" Democrats sounds better, but is actually more ambiguous. Hearing that term by itself, would you think the person was a Republican or a Democrat? "Fake" sounds insulting, but the meaning is far more clear.

Carol_Herman said...

Oy vey. I nearly forgot the reason! But thanks to Original Mike's 12:53 PM post ... It struck me again ...

This is UNION induced ... to "switch off" the State Senate ... It's like a war campaign. Where the end result is to "make" the Madison Rotunda "safe again" for democraps. So they don't have to be flee-baggers! It's like sending troops out to conquer the hill. To give you a better vantage point where you can send your snipers.

As a military tactic, though?

It's gonna take a lot of stealing, today, to work.

Harder for unions to thwart the will of the people!

As to "recalls?" What if they're like Kloppenhoppen?

What if what trots out doesn't win the race?

You'll forget soon?

The grass will grow over the playing field?

David said...

The material at Original Mike's link is useful. Thanks Mike.

Chuck66 said...

Usually a low turn means that only the angry or really motivated people turn out. People promoting school referendums have found out that they need to have a special vote. If a school referendum is during a general election, it is much less likely to pass.

Not sure how that applies here. Proably the few people that are voting will vote for the real Demcorat.

In August, you would think the Republicans would want a large turnout, to overcome the angry unionists (who are always very well organized and funded).

Chip S. said...

Writ, Pls read my comment at 12:28. If you have a counterargument, great. As of now, you don't seem to.

Joanna said...

garage mahal said...

At least we don't have to run fake candidates to try to win.


Are you sure you want to say that? I'm giving you a chance to back out of that comment...

Chuck66 said...

WEAC told their members to bring horns and drums to Racine today to try to drown out Governor Walker as he speaks.

If I didn't have to many public school teacher relatives, I would think that you have to be a real douche to be a teacher. But not all teachers are.

Original Mike said...

@David: You betcha!

ken in sc said...

Open primaries in the South are a remnant of the Solid South, in which the Democratic Primary was the real election. Nobody except black Republicans ran in the general election. The first time I voted the Democratic Party in Alabama had the symbol of a White Rooster and had the slogan of 'White Supremacy for the Right'. I handed out bumper stickers for Goldwater.

Chuck66 said...

Mike, so good point. This isn't Republicans running as fake Democrats in a Democrat primary. It is a Republican running in an open primary, to challenge the incumbant.


This is what Demcoracy looks like.

garage mahal said...

You received such a call?

Not that I know of. In district 10 they are getting them:

Hello, this is Barbara Lyons from Wisconsin Right to Life. I’m calling today to let you know that you will be receiving an absentee ballot application for the upcoming recall elections in the mail in the next few days. These recall elections are very important and voting absentee will ensure that your vote is counted and that we can maintain a pro-family, pro-life state senate. We hope that we can count on you to complete that application and send it back to us within 7 days.”‘ link

Lying for Jesus.

Joanna said...

garage mahal said...

At least we don't have to run fake candidates to try to win.


LINK
That's a list of some Dems' usage of fake candidates.

Chip S. said...

@garage, I don't understand why you presume that the robocalls are from the organization they claim they're from. Seems to me that the people who are most likely to believe what "Wisconsin Right to Life" tells them are more likely to vote for the "protest" Democrat than the real one.

Looks like a Democrat ploy to me.

Original Mike said...

Are these "fake Democrats" actually calling themselves Democrats?

bagoh20 said...

"I was #352 at my polling place, three times the expected turnout according to them. "

I have no doubt that you showed up three times - it's a Democrat thing.

Chuck66 said...

Original Mike, that is my question.

If they are not calling themselves "Democrats", then they are just candidates in a primary, to challenge in incumbant. There is nothing wrong with that.

If they are calling themselves Democrats, then I would find that unethical.

bagoh20 said...

It whack-a-mahal day again.

bagoh20 said...

Stewart Smalley was a fake candidate and he won.

Chip S. said...

And now he's a fake senator.

Original Mike said...

Understood, Chuck. My original point was that I don't accept the concept of a closed primary in any case. In this particular case, in the course of discussion, I realized I was taking the charge of "fake Democrat" (i.e. someone who proclaims, "I am a Democrat", when they are not) at face value. However, considering who's been making that charge (cough, garage, cough), I realize I may have presumed too much.

Scott M said...

Oh, he's real enough.

Levi Starks said...

it's perfectly fine to disagree with Althouse, As an avowed conservative I do quite often. However I'm convinced that her logic is indisputable, irrefutable......
Which is why I come here to test my own ideas against those that are presented here. If I just want to surround myself with people who agree with me that's easy. (conservative talk radio) or experience the loathing of those with whom I disagree (NPR) I have that choice. The reason our system is, and will continue to be broken is that we have been reduced to elected officials, and their supporters who only know how to shout at each other. While It's true that Ive learned to stop caring, I still need to know what I'm not caring about.

Chip S. said...

Typo. I meant "joke."

Chuck66 said...

OM, no matter what, the left has pledged a scortched-earth policy this year, so the Republicans need to do what ever is neccesary to fight back.

The Republicans won't win by being timid nice guys.

Chuck66 said...

Levi S.....the biggest thing I hate is what you say....in the general public, there is no longer a debate. It is just yelling.

Go to any thread on the Wisc State Journal, Milw JS, or Mpls Star Tribune. Of course I am highly bias, but the left seems to be the worst. No debating, just name calling. And all the goofy conspiracy accusations. I have never witnessed such paranoia before.

Original Mike said...

@Chuck - Agreed. Given the situation, even if they are real fake Democrats, I am not troubled by that. I think this whole recall thing is crap.

chickenlittle said...

Chip S asked me: Why is reason 3 morally superior to reason 2?

An election for a candidate differs from referenda such a yes/no ballot measure. A no vote on a referendum does not enable that measure to go forward. A no voter can easily divorce his or herself from the position even if he or she is outvoted.

A “no vote” in a choice between two candidates actually casts a nod for the lesser of the two evils. On paper, such a negative voter is indistinguishable from an enthusiastic supporter's vote.

Such a negative voter cannot easily divorce his or herself from his or her negative choice because his or her vote was electorally indistinguishable from a supporters.

A negative voter knowingly obfuscates the decision at hand, and I, for one, believe this civilly unethical.

David said...

Journal Sentinel writes:

Barbara Lyons, the executive director of Wisconsin Right to Life, said Tuesday that automated calls that went out on Monday to residents in nine recall districts were not voter suppression calls.

At least one politically minded blog charged that the calls were intended to convince people not to vote today in primaries around the state.

But Lyons said the intent of the calls was to make people aware of the upcoming recall elections on Aug. 9 and 16.

Here is the script of the call, as provided by Wisconsin Right to Life:

"Hello, this is Barbara Lyons from Wisconsin Right to Life. I'm calling today to let you know that you will be receiving an absentee ballot application for the upcoming recall elections in the mail in the next few days. These recall elections are very important and voting absentee will ensure that your vote is counted and that we can maintain a pro-family, pro-life state senate. We hope that we can count on you to complete that application and send it back to us within 7 days.

"Thank you for your support. Wisconsin Right to Life can be reached by calling (877) 855-5007."


Gotta say it sounds like voter suppression to me, though she may be supressing her own voters if she's telling the truth. How can you robocall people who are going to get absentee ballots? How do they have any idea who has requested an absentee ballot?

Sounds fishy.

Original Mike said...

"A negative voter knowingly obfuscates the decision at hand,..."

No he doesn't. He takes the only option open to him.

"...and I, for one, believe this civilly unethical."

Ridiculous.

Curious George said...

garage mahal said...

Some right-to-life group is running robocalls telling voters not to vote, that an abstentee ballot are in the mail. Par for the course.

The robocall doesn't say "don't vote" like yo uclaim and it says the absentee ballot is for the recall elections. Those are in August. Today is simply a primary.

Whose lying? Oh, you.

Chuck66 said...

Note on the primary, from River Falls Journal:

"Two months later, Weix, co-owner of T and S Hardware in Elmwood who has run in two previous Assembly races as a Republican, filed as a Democrat to force a primary."

Well, I will patronize his store next time I am in the neighborhood. I don't really like this, but you do what you have to when the poltical climate has gotten this bad.

Chuck66 said...

I don't see how these calls hurt Democrats today. If a right-to-life group is calling people who they have identified as pro-life, wouldn't the Democrats not want them to vote today?

RonF said...

Writ Small said:

Democrats are having a primary to see which Democrat they will put up against the incumbent Republican in the recall election.

Are they? Is Wisconsin limited to only 2 parties? Can only Democrats initiate and put up a candidate against an incumbent Republican in a recall election? Does the law then disenfranchise the Green Party, the Constitution Party, etc., etc.?

No. A recall election is not a partisan election. A recall election provides a mechanism whereby the electorate can remove a member of the legislature or executive branch if they are dissatisfied with their actions. Why they are dissatisfied with their actions is not relevant. A group of Tea Party movement members can initiate a recall election against a Republican because they don't think the incumbent is conservative enough as legitimately as a group of Democrats can initiate such an election because they think he's too conservative. Or, substitute "Socialist", "Democrat" and "liberal" for "Tea Party", "Republican" and "conservative".

This is why this HAS to be an open primary - either that, or you run a complete set of closed primaries for every single party - including the incumbent's, and put them all on the challenge ballot. The law does not and cannot privilege one party over another in a recall election. It cannot presume why the incumbent is being opposed.

Chuck66 said...

A little more on the 2 candidates in today's 10th district primary:

Moore holds a Bachelor’s degree in English education and political science from UW-Stevens Point and a Master’s degree from UW-River Falls. She is divorced with no children.

Weix owns T and S Hardware store with his brother. According to his website for an earlier election, he is working on a Master’s in Business Administration through UW-Eau Claire and holds a degree in business from UW-Stout. He is married and has two daughters.

He serves as a gunnery sergeant with a Marine Reserves unit in Madison and was on active duty from 1993 to 1998.

Chip S. said...

chickenlittle: Such a negative voter cannot easily divorce his or herself from his or her negative choice because his or her vote was electorally indistinguishable from a supporters.

Agreed. But I don't follow what you wrote next:

A negative voter knowingly obfuscates the decision at hand,

How can someone "knowingly obfuscate" a choice that is "electorally indistinguishable" from that of someone with different preferences but who cast the same vote? The "fault," if it were a fault, is in the fact that the voter is forced to choose between a limited set of options.

Finally, I simply don't understand how you get from any of that to this:

I, for one, believe this civilly unethical.

If you're upset about the "obfuscation," why wouldn't you welcome a clarification along the lines of "I voted against B more than I voted for A?"

garage mahal said...

Whose lying? Oh, you.

LOL.

SGT Ted said...

Carol,

You are thinking of a headlock, which is the wrestling hold most used to properly position the receiver of the noogies.

Scott M said...

which is the wrestling hold most used to properly position the receiver of the noogies.

Noogies or life-altering indian burns.

Chip S. said...

life-altering indian burns

Just as I suspected--a melanophobe!

Scott M said...

Nice try, melanist, bigot. We know who the faux-gingers are and we're making ready...

vnjagvet said...

Not to mention pink belly, Scott.

RonF seems to make more sense than those decrying an open primary in recall situations. I don't see anything wrong with his logic. Chicken? Garage?

Chip S. said...

OK, ginger--but we attack at noon, for maximum effect.

Coketown said...

"People of Wisconsin. My primary challenger...is a Cylon!"

There. Fake Democrat problem solved. Fracking easy.

chickenlittle said...

@Chip S asked: How can someone "knowingly obfuscate" a choice that is "electorally indistinguishable" from that of someone with different preferences but who cast the same vote?

Because the outcome of the vote is interpreted by the winner. The winner says: look how many supporters I have instead of hmm, I wonder how many supports I have for my intentions and how many just didn’t like my opponent. That is the deliberate obfuscation introduced by the negative voter.

The "fault," if it were a fault, is in the fact that the voter is forced to choose between a limited set of options.

Forced?

Finally, I simply don't understand how you get from any of that to this: "I, for one, believe this civilly unethical."

Would civically unethical be better? Elsewhere I noted that ethics involves doing the right thing when no one is looking. A voting booth is private. According to my definition, a negative voter is not doing the right thing because they introduce the uncertainty factor into the outcome. This what I mean by obfuscation. There's also the continual need to for a negative voter to carefully distance him or herself from ongoing issues which they never intended to vote for by voting against their opponent. After a while, it becomes convoluted logic until another electoral event comes along to erase the chalkboard.

Scott M said...

OK, ginger--but we attack at noon, for maximum effect.

You will burn in your tanks, basané.

Carol_Herman said...

You know, Chickenlittle @ 1:01 PM,

IF elections were a test. You'd fill out a Scantron sheet. And, the machine would "beep" when "it" thought your answer was wrong. Then, a professor would come out from behind the curtain. And, stamp your forehead with a grade.

All I know ... back in the days when I stood in line to vote ... was that I had no idea who other people were voting. Nor did I care.

What mesmerizes me about our system is that it's like taking water ... till you learn ... you're looking at the ocean. Our votes "smooth out." And, if enough of us are voting ... As Hugh Hewett said back in 2004 ... our elections can't be stolen from us. By "us" I thought he meant ALL OF US. USA! Yaay.

Oh, let me add. Voting is not an intelligence test, either.

Just vote. People died for our privilege to vote.

Chip S. said...

We will launch drone attacks on your strategic zinc- oxide reserve, freckles.

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
LOL."

You said this:

"Some right-to-life group is running robocalls telling voters not to vote, that an abstentee ballot are in the mail."

And then posted what the caller actually said:

"Hello, this is Barbara Lyons from Wisconsin Right to Life. I’m calling today to let you know that you will be receiving an absentee ballot application for the upcoming recall elections in the mail in the next few days. These recall elections are very important and voting absentee will ensure that your vote is counted and that we can maintain a pro-family, pro-life state senate. We hope that we can count on you to complete that application and send it back to us within 7 days."

So we can see that:

a) They did not say "not to vote" as you claim
b) The did not say they were sending an "abstentee ballot" as you claim, but an application for same.

So are you a liar? Or an idiot?


The also address the "upcoming recall elections".

Really you would have to be a fucking moron to not vote today based on this call. Then again, you know your people.

"Liberals, as stupid as they think blacks are."

Scott M said...

So are you a liar? Or an idiot?

D'oh! He's got ya there, GM.

chickenlittle said...

@Carol Herman: I'm working on a theory to explain why we seem to be evolving towards a 50/50 outcome in most elections. No more landslides. A Francis Fukuyama-esque "The End Of Elections." I'll let you know first when I've finished. :)
________
wv = immemmet. And forthcoming.

Curious George said...

David said...

But Lyons said the intent of the calls was to make people aware of the upcoming recall elections on Aug. 9 and 16.

Here is the script of the call, as provided by Wisconsin Right to Life:

"Hello, this is Barbara Lyons from Wisconsin Right to Life. I'm calling today to let you know that you will be receiving an absentee ballot application for the upcoming recall elections in the mail in the next few days. These recall elections are very important and voting absentee will ensure that your vote is counted and that we can maintain a pro-family, pro-life state senate. We hope that we can count on you to complete that application and send it back to us within 7 days.

"Thank you for your support. Wisconsin Right to Life can be reached by calling (877) 855-5007."

Gotta say it sounds like voter suppression to me, though she may be supressing her own voters if she's telling the truth. How can you robocall people who are going to get absentee ballots? How do they have any idea who has requested an absentee ballot?

Sounds fishy.

It wouldn't sound fishy if you could read. They are not sending a ballot, they are sending an application for a ballot.

Carol_Herman said...

Horse shit, Roesch-Voltaire @ 1:16 PM

For your information Rupert Murdoch just showed up and sliced and diced his own paper ... to rid himself of a staff that thought it would "squat on the world" ... and snap at him till he caves.

They picked the wrong boss to work for!

And, what Rupert Murdoch DID was supply his readers with contents they wanted to read! Maybe, you think we should just go over and kill all the British readers, to "solve the problem?"

I don't care how "The World" got to its news, either!

Christopher Hitchens says ... he was taught ... when he was a cub reporter ... to take a partner with him ... when he stuck his foot in the door of some bereaved person's house.

Hitchens added that people were so polite, he'd be invited in for tea. So he could go to the kitchen and sit down. While his partner went to the mantle and grabbed off all the displayed personal photos!

Murdoch? He says go read SCOOP by Evelyn Waugh. Or the Tin Man.

The politicians, in high dudgeon would LOVE to club Murdoch to death.

And, I'll bet, now, that Murdoch will win this "little battle."

Wait till the politicians discover the value of BskyB TANKS ... after Murdoch "let's go." (And, he might.)

Wait what happens when regular people invest ... and politicians behave in such ways ... their investments are turned into toilet paper.

All politicians. They are the same.

We don't get much choice in the matter.

Still, I won't give up my voting rights. And, I don't complain about "how often I have to vote," either. Though each time it costs me a postage stamp.

chickenlittle said...

All I know ... back in the days when I stood in line to vote ... was that I had no idea who other people were voting. Nor did I care.

My parents never talked about whom they voted for except for the 1960 election.

t-man said...

Why does he have to choose? I've found him to be both.

Sloanasaurus said...

I heard there was big turnout in republican wards in Hudson. Hmmm...

So lets say democrats retake the Senate in the recall election. What is there left to vote on from now until 2012? Not a budget. All of the new democrats will have to run again in the real election in 2012.

ignatzk said...

The media is consistently pathetic by labeling legitimate protest candidates as fake.

No less a form of protest than anything from the left, except much tidier.

All we'll need now are recounts for these primary elections.

Sofa King said...

Democrats are having a primary to see which Democrat they will put up against the incumbent Republican in the recall election. Some Republicans have entered these open Democrat primaries in an effort to abort the process.


That's not really correct. It's more accurate to say that the State of Wisconsin is having a primary election to see which candidate will represent the Democratic party in the recall election.

Curious George said...

"t-man said...
Why does he have to choose? I've found him to be both."

He won't. Because he is both.

Sofa King said...

@Carol Herman: I'm working on a theory to explain why we seem to be evolving towards a 50/50 outcome in most elections. No more landslides. A Francis Fukuyama-esque "The End Of Elections." I'll let you know first when I've finished.

That theory already has a name: The Median Voter Theorem

Writ Small said...

From the linked, news article:

Though Tuesday's elections are Democratic primaries, Republicans can cross over and vote in them because Wisconsin's open primary law allows it.

The primaries are Democratic primaries. That means that only Democrats can run. The "open" part describes who can vote in them, not who can run in them. Mind you, you don't have to be a "real" Democrat to run in them. I've seen no legal arguments against the "fake"/"protest" Democrats. Also, the "fake" Democrats are not hiding their intentions, so it would be inaccurate to call them "stealthy." However, "fake" is accurate. If there is a word that implies both "fake" and "non-stealthy," that would be a more accurate and fair description. Since I don't know what that word is, I will continue to defend the use of "fake."

If the term fake seems biased to you when it in fact extremely accurate, you have to ask yourself why you recoil against an accurate word. I can't help you there.

Carol_Herman said...

To: Chickenlittle @ 2:31 PM

HINT: Outliers don't win.

As to the "test quality" ... elections can't be a "test" because if it was you'd get CHOICE "E" ... none of the above.

Since it's not a test you're stuck with people's choices ...

And, to co-opt Chip S @ 1L11 PM ... IF you own an ice cream store, you better have more than two flavors for customers to choose from.

Voting booths aren't ice cream stores, either.

And, in America everyone who votes is free to choose. So, I'm not surprised that outcomes come in close to 50/50. We are NOT a "one size fits all country!"

When Kloppenhoppen trotted close to Justice Prosser I was so surprised! (Because? Well, because I wouldn't have picked her. But I do know enough that it doesn't give her a million-to-one shot advantage.)

I actually learned a lot when my son was young. And, the only thing I needed the menu for was to cover my face ... so he wouldn't see me rolling my eye-balls. Whatever did take him so long to order an entree at I-Hop. (Which grandma called U-Haul.)

But my son LOVES reading menus. Me? Nah. Not so much. I can make a decision before walking into the store.

Voting booths?

Did you ever wonder what the people were doing behind the curtain ... when they just didn't come right out, again?

Did they think they were taking a test?

Scott M said...

If there is a word that implies both "fake" and "non-stealthy," that would be a more accurate and fair description.

The answer is obvious. Peacock.

Chuck66 said...

Sloan, Moore is really kind of flaky. I think Harsdorf will win.

What will Democrats do if thehy do retake Senate? The exact same thing Obama did with Gitmo, Iraq war, military trials, the budget deficit, domestic "spying", etc.

Carol_Herman said...

Sofa King @ 2:48 PM

Do you just make shit up?

I think you're quoting me saying something that Chickenlittle said.

Old Dad said...

@Curious George, re: Garage--

"So are you a liar? Or an idiot?"

The idiot claim seems incontrovertible. The liar is very possibly true but there are other possible explanations, especially granting the idiot claim. Idiots can also be lazy, careless, intellectually dishonest hacks. But then again, liar works, too.

Scott M said...

What will Democrats do if thehy do retake Senate?

I think a better question is what will they do if they are completely rebuked? More than likely, it will end up with a mixed bag, but a pimp slap back atcha isn't outside the realm of possibility.

chickenlittle said...

@Sofa King: Thanks for the link. Does that theorem discuss the role of hyperpolarity?

Chip S. said...

If there is a word that implies both "fake" and "non-stealthy," that would be a more accurate and fair description.

I believe the standard term is "nominal."

Chuck66 said...

I think the hyperpolarity is a big thing. Now, people find the other side so offensive, that they would never consider voting for him/her, even if he is by far the best candidate. So the parties have to fight for those 10% that pay no attendion and decide late in the process on who to vote for.

That is also why a third party often does well. Jesse Ventura did not have a built in enemy base like a Republican or Democrat does.

garage mahal said...

It wouldn't sound fishy if you could read. They are not sending a ballot, they are sending an application for a ballot.

Sure they are. And the (703) phone number belongs to a Virginia Call center and is leased by Americans for Prosperity. Surprise, surprise.

chickenlittle said...

@Carol Herman: Chill. I think Sofa King grabbed my entire text which included the "@carol herman." Note his italics.*
_______
*an Italian friend of mine resented the use of that word to describe a particular type font. I don't thing he was up on the word origins.

Original Mike said...

"The primaries are Democratic primaries."

What makes them "Democratic" primaries?

Chuck66 said...

The Democrat conspiracy folks are getting their heart rates up. Running to their blogs. Emailing each other. They found out that the Jew businessmen Kochs are preventing liberals from voting.

B said...

Curious George said...
"'garage mahal said...
LOL."
So are you a liar? Or an idiot?'"

He is both.

He has proven himself an idiot time and time again by tossing out links that either say exactly the opposite of what he wants them to say, or easily trace back to some opinion or outright lie some other yawping fool published.

He has proven himself a liar time and time again by continuing to cite the same links after they have been debunked. He knows that they are untrue, yet continues to disseminate them.

The LOL response - he doesn't care whether he is caught in a lie or not. His goal is to disseminate them, not defend them.

Serious times. Serious issues. Garage, and a lot of other spoiled children determined to suckle on the government teat, think any exposure of their tactics is to laugh about.

Wisconsin voters are now about to settle in the next few weeks what started with the fleeing legislators and continued with the attempted disruption of the legislative process. The core issue affects not just Wisconsin but the nation at large. It started in 2000, has been building since then, and is now coming to a head.

Simply put, will the general electorate allow the losing political alignment to operate outside the legislative process in order to overturn or suborn the outcome of any (or every) general election they lose?

The liars and idiots - the shitheads like garage - are not smart enough to understand where that road leads.

Alex said...

garage - I laugh at you. Nothing will come of these recalls. Nothing at all. If New Jersey can bust the unions, you have no hope.

t-man said...

Whatever is not expressly forbidden is permitted, even laudatory and admirable if it might help your side (see fleeing the state to avoid a quorum). Traditions, ethics and honor are out the window now.

The Kopper asked for a state-funded recount because it was available. There is a procedure for recall, therefore recall away.Unilateral disarmament would be silly, so if there are open primaries, vote as the law allows.

It is all merely a foretaste of the feast to come.

Chip S. said...

@chickenlittle, Here's one instance of what you're looking for.

Herman Carol said...

Maybe.

WineSlob said...

The Leeches say Absconding in a Snit
Is a Political Act Most Legit
But Open Primary Elections
Leeches Say Need Corrections
Parrotting the Parasitic WEAC Hypo-Crites.

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
It wouldn't sound fishy if you could read. They are not sending a ballot, they are sending an application for a ballot.

Sure they are. And the (703) phone number belongs to a Virginia Call center and is leased by Americans for Prosperity. Surprise, surprise."

No help. Still could be idiot or liar.

James said...

I just got back from the Gateway Technical College campus in downtown Racine....they are celebrating their 100th anniversary and Scott Walker was scheduled to speak at 3 p.m.

For about an hour before the speech there was a motley group of about 150-200 people protesting on the sidewalk. When I left they were leaving their signs in a pile to go into the building to boo Walker.

I overheard the leader of the group saying that it was a public event and they all had the right to go into the hall to protest. I wanted to stick around to see if nay heads would get cracked but I had to get back to my office.

I'll probably post pictures later.

Paddy O said...

Next thing you know, Democrats will try to run dog A in the Republican primary.


It's another slippery slope!

Chuck66 said...

James, that was organized by WEAC. It was on their web site.

Stay classy, teachers.

Hey, did they bring their drums?

garage mahal said...

No help. Still could be idiot or liar.

You keep defending illegal robocalls jerkoff. And let us know if an "application for a ballot" ever transpires.

Chuck66 said...

A) Are they illegal? If so, how?

B) I used to get applications for absentee ballots from the Republican party. I find this annoying and ineffective, but not any more illegel than canvessing to see who Democrats are, then calling them on election day and offering a ride to the polls.

Chuck66 said...

And it was your side that wanted these elections, so deal with it.

Curious George said...

"Chuck66 said...
James, that was organized by WEAC. It was on their web site.

Stay classy, teachers.

Hey, did they bring their drums?"

With the changes because of Walker's bill, the future stories of union intimidation of teachers who aren't members will be oh so delicious!

dbp said...

Only GM could simultaneously move the goal-posts and double-down in one short comment.

Well played!

WV zition

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...

You keep defending illegal robocalls jerkoff. And let us know if an "application for a ballot" ever transpires."

So you concede that you were wrong about the ballots. Good. Still confused whether cause was you being an idiot or liar...please advise.

Still need to address your false claim of "telling them not to vote".

And now let's add "illegal"???

What law did they break? Or is this another "idiot or liar" thing?

chickenlittle said...

@Chip S.: Excellent link at 3:18! I'll have to read it!

garage mahal said...

So you concede that you were wrong about the ballots.

No. Where are the ballots? Let me know when you find one.

James said...

No drums; just a few lame chants.

"Recall Walker"

"This is what democracy looks like"

"Hey, hey, ho, ho... Scott Walker got to go"

Curious George said...

"No. Where are the ballots? Let me know when you find one."

So I think we can settle on stupid. I think.

So unless I hear otherwise, let's once agin focus on your flase claim of the robocall "telling people not to vote", and your claim that the call is illegal.

dbp said...

garage mahal said...

Some right-to-life group is running robocalls telling voters not to vote, that an abstentee ballot are in the mail.


"Hello, this is Barbara Lyons from Wisconsin Right to Life. I'm calling today to let you know that you will be receiving an absentee ballot application for the upcoming recall elections in the mail in the next few days. These recall elections are very important and voting absentee will ensure that your vote is counted and that we can maintain a pro-family, pro-life state senate. We hope that we can count on you to complete that application and send it back to us within 7 days.

"Thank you for your support. Wisconsin Right to Life can be reached by calling (877) 855-5007."

Whether or not they ever send an application, GM is still lying when he claims that people were told not to vote and that they were told an absentee ballot was in the mail.

I vote for idiot, a true liar would have removed the earlier comment.

Harrington said...

Chuck66, Is T&S Hardware in Elmwood the same hardware that does those very clever ads over the Menominee radio station lampooning various political actions such as Obamacare, collective bargaining, etc? If it is, Weix should go into advertising. "Das Spadana".

Sofa King said...

If there is a word that implies both "fake" and "non-stealthy," that would be a more accurate and fair description.



I think the word you are looking for is false.

@Sofa King: Thanks for the link. Does that theorem discuss the role of hyperpolarity?

Not specifically. However, a plausible theory is that the closer the parties' positions are to each other, the more fierce the competition for the titular median voter, and the more the actual differences between the parties must be exaggerated. Personally I believe it is a product of individual identification. A voter close to the median might subconsciously recognize that his counterpart on the other side is not all that far away on the wider ideological spectrum, and so he exaggerates the differences for the purpose of rationalizing his choice.

Drew said...

Over here in Western Wisconsin, Isaac Weix's radio ads are worth the whole circus. "I've been a Democrat for about a month, and now all I want to do is raise your taxes and cozy up to the unions!" (Or something like that.)

garage mahal said...

Whether or not they ever send an application, GM is still lying when he claims that people were told not to vote and that they were told an absentee ballot was in the mail.

The call told voters that "You don’t need to worry. Your absentee ballot is in the mail.”

It's too late to use absentee ballots. I concede the call didn't say "not to vote", but it's clear what the intent of the call is.

Carol_Herman said...

Oh, Drew, that's wonderful!

Is there a Weix web site?

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
The call told voters that "You don’t need to worry. Your absentee ballot is in the mail.”


Dude, we already determined "idiot" but now I'm questioning it. The caller didn't say "You don’t need to worry. Your absentee ballot is in the mail.” You made that up. The said an application was in the mail, and hoped that the receivier would fill it out and return it.

It's too late to use absentee ballots. I concede the call didn't say "not to vote", but it's clear what the intent of the call is. Uh, not if they are for the RECALL elections, which are next month. Which is what they were for. How do we know? Because they said "the RECALL elections". The only thing unclear is YOUR intentions. And that's because we don't know if you are a liar or an idiot. Will you please clear that up?

Oh, and again, how are these calls illegal?

James said...

The larger question is why Garage Mahal is worried about absentee ballots. For several weeks now he's been telling us that the recalls will be successful.

B said...

dbp said...I vote for idiot, a true liar would have removed the earlier comment.

Not necessarily. If you do not care whether it is the truth - your intent is to spread a lie - you won't feel any need to defend it. That's irrelevant. Might spin in the wind a bit like garage is doing, but you'd never address the core lies. The goal is to get the lie out there and force your opponent to try to defend against it. If they bite, the longer they defend against it the more set the issue becomes in the public mind as a different take rather than a clear cut lie from one side.

See Alinsky Rules for Radicals.

garage may on may not be subscribing to Alinsky tactics here. Alinsky also depends on the marching moron crowd the left cultivates to run with the lie. I'd say that given his last few comments, that describes him.

BTW: Using the marching morons to run with the lie allows the originators plausible denial. They may even give a ersatz apology - 'sorry you took it that way', or 'sorry you misunderstood' but never retract. As long as the never retract, and even if they do, the garage mahal types will carry the lie along.

Because that's what they do. They lie.

chickenlittle said...

Sofa King said "titular median"

Is that median curve Gaussian or more of a Boltzmann distribution? :)

__________
wv = "codgier," as in codgier than thou.

garage mahal said...

Uh, not if they are for the RECALL elections, which are next month.

Uh, recall elections started today. The calls targeted registered Democrats, and the calls started days before this election. What does this tell you Einstein? But I'm supposed to believe a right to life org cares about registered Democrats enough to make calls alerting them that theu are sending them absentee ballot applications to vote? Whatever dude.

RonF said...

So, chickenlittle, what do you think of my comment? The whole premise of "false Democrat" is false as long as they don't call themselves Democrats. The Democrats have no privelege in this primary over any other party.

AllenS said...

garage, recalls started today, or primaries started today?

Drew, I heard the same ad. Too funny.

Chuck66 said...

No drums; just a few lame chants.

"Recall Walker"

"This is what democracy looks like"

"Hey, hey, ho, ho... Scott Walker got to go"

Heh, I had some good teachers, and really lazy teachers. The lazy teachers would just recycle lesson plans and tests from year to year. Looks like they do the same with their chants.

Chuck66 said...

I'll be in western wisc this weekend. What stations play his ads? I may have to go to Elmwood and shop at his store.

Sometime Alt should have a thread on the UFO site there.

Drew said...

Weix ran against Harsdorf in the primary last year and lost. I don't think his "weixforassembly" website is still functioning. But he regularly runs ads for his hardware store that tweak lefties. There was one in which he referred to the store having a Deficit Spending Sale, or something. "No coupons necessary. All you have to do is bring your grandkids, and let them pay for everything!" He also regularly pokes fun at Greenists.

chickenlittle said...

RonF said: So, chickenlittle, what do you think of my comment?

I think your comment at 2:00 makes a lot of sense. I never understood why they had elections on two different days either (R and D's). Isn't one election bound to influence the other?

Old Dad said...

Concerning the Garage idiot or liar debate, I'd like to propose the following:

Resolved,

Garage Mahal is a stupid, stubborn, ignorant, malicious lefty asshole.

Big Mike said...

Open primaries - you will generally find these in a state where one party dominates, and especially when there is a machine around. The open primaries let Democrats, er, make that "members of one party" pick what they perceive as the easiest candidate to beat from the other side.

Might just backfire on the "members of one party" this time. We'll see.

Kirk Parker said...

What's left to say after Synova, Thorley, and AJL have dissected it so ably? :-)

Except maybe this, to Canuck:

"But I am not particularly respectful of political parties, as such, and support the concept of open primaries. "

What that really boils down to, alas, is not being respectful of others' right of free association. I fail to see any redeeming value in that.

Curious George said...

garage mahal said...

Uh, recall elections started today. The calls targeted registered Democrats, and the calls started days before this election. What does this tell you Einstein? But I'm supposed to believe a right to life org cares about registered Democrats enough to make calls alerting them that theu are sending them absentee ballot applications to vote? Whatever dude.


Wow, I was leaning "liar"...but now am back to "idiot". Because you don't know the difference between a primary election and the recall election. They are two separate things. No one will be recalled today.

Now we still have this outstanding issue of "illegal"...did you forget. Or would you just like to?

And we can add "The calls targeted registered Democrats." WI has no such thing as "registered Democrats." Or "registered Republicans". Did you make that shit up too?

Liar or idiot? Time to "out" yourself!

purplepenquin said...

An election is considered undemocratic?! Really?! Ya'll have no shame when it comes to spinning...

YoYoJoe said...

"The 10th Amendment says nothing about the "right" of marraige (sic).

It is irrelevant what the 10th Amendment says in relation to marriage. Our unalienable rights to associate, to marry, to exercise religion, to have sex, etc... existed prior to the foundation of the governments and government are without power to modify, alter, or abolish unalienable rights. The Supreme Court in Meister v Moore affirmed that marriage is a common right and all marriage statutes are merely directory (you cannot be penalized for not following them).

"Marraige is a statutory construct to legitimaize the production of the citizenry..."

"Statutory marriage" is a statutory construct; common law marriage is entirely different than statutory marriage and does not carry the disabilities that come from having the state grant permission to marry and assume a role as the superior party of interest.

"and gay marraige does not fit that category."

'Gay marriage' currently does not fit in many states statutory marriage scheme, but that is changing. 'Gay marriage' is not recognized under common law marriage.

"Natural law is where rights are derived from god."

True. What if one firmly believes and has modern scripture in which God commands His children to engage in polygamy/plural marriage. Can plural marriage not be easily derived from the combined exercise of our unalienable God given rights.

"Statutory law is where rights are given by man."

Statutory law can only give man government granted privileges which can be revoked or modified at any time. We commonly call these civil rights and they are the sole purview in America of recently freed black slaves, their posterity and others similarly situated (14th Amendment) who cannot claim unalienable rights.

"The Declaration of Independence cautioned against any law against the law of nature, and I think "gay marraige is the perfect example of that, as YY equals nothing."


I am in shock at the bigotry I see here towards polygamy/plural marriage and 'gay statutory marriage(civil unions).

What right does any person claim on this board to use their individual power to deny any American their full measure of liberty? I do not have any such power or right and neither do you. If we don't have it and can't do it individually then millions of us cannot band together and deny other American the full measure of their liberty.

RonF said...

Writ Small said:

The primaries are Democratic primaries. That means that only Democrats can run.

Can you cite the Wisconsin law that privileges the Democratic party in these primaries vs. the Socialist Party, the Constitution Party or any other parties that may exist in Wisconsin? Can you cite the Wisconsin law that says that this is a partisan primary at all? See my comment of 2:00 PM.

Unless Wisconsin law says differently - and disenfranchises all parties besides the Democrats to run against the Republican - the recally elections are not one party against another (to the exclusion of all others), it's an incumbent against the winner of a all-comers primary. The Libertarian Party has just as much right to run against a GOP incumbent because he's too much of a big-government RINO as the Democrats do because he's too conservative. The recall election is non-partisan - it has to be - so the primary must be also.

Writ Small said...

Can you cite the Wisconsin law that privileges the Democratic party in these primaries vs. the Socialist Party, the Constitution Party or any other parties that may exist in Wisconsin?

The quote I showed from Ann's linked news article supports my interpretation and contradicts yours.

If the reporter got his facts wrong, those of you who feel that way need to prove it. I'm open to have my mind changed - but not do your work for you.