July 19, 2011

"Iranians... flocking online to defy another Islamic Republic edict: buying and selling dogs."

"... Last year, Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi issued a fatwa, or religious edict, denouncing dog ownership. In April, Iran's parliament passed a bill to criminalize dog ownership, declaring the phenomenon a sign of 'vulgar Western values.'"

Pick one.
Dog ownership is a beautiful part of human life that should be available to all.
Actually, it is vulgar, but that's part of freedom -- the freedom to do vulgar things.
I agree, dog ownership is vulgar and should be suppressed.
  
pollcode.com free polls

165 comments:

sorepaw said...
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Sixty Grit said...
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Sixty Grit said...
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MadisonMan said...

I wonder why the Prophet hated dogs so.

TWM said...

Just another reason Islam sucks in general.

rocketeer67 said...

I wonder why the Prophet hated dogs so.

A guy can only take so much rejection of amorous advances before love turns to hate.

sorepaw said...
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traditionalguy said...

As Caleb said, whatever you do , I will believe you and support you.

Dogs are unclean, but so are most humans these days. At least the dogs are loyal.

The connection between a dog and his master is a well known healing tool for seriously wounded men. Dogs literally nurse their master back to a connecting with life in this world.

If anyone says that relationship is unclean, then that person is an idiot.

pduggie said...

'vulgar' just means 'of the people'.

If you claim something is vulgar, it says more about where you see yourself in relation to others than about the thing

(yes, this is the etymological fallacy)

Dose of Sanity said...

So, this is a very fox-newsian poll of you, Althouse.

Your only option that doesn't call dogs vulgar is the first one.

Dose of Sanity said...

I think this law was about to overturned - along with cat ownership?

I have an email from the HSUS and IHS around here somewhere on it...

bagoh20 said...

Dogs warn you who are the vampires, zombies, aliens, and assholes. It's an ancient hatred going both ways. I side with the dogs - they're more civilized.

rocketeer67 said...

So, this is a very fox-newsian poll of you, Althouse.

This is a very daily-showian indictment of Fox News of you, Dose. You know - high on emotionalism, very low on fact.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...Your only option that doesn't call dogs vulgar is the first one...."

Indeed. There should have been a "these people are insane" option.

Scott M said...

Dogs warn you who are the vampires, zombies, aliens, and assholes.

You forgot terminators.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I can't trust anyone who doesn't like dogs.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...I think this law was about to overturned -along with cat ownership?..."

Yeah, who says Islamic fanatics cant be progressive.

MadisonMan said...

When I walk through Forest Hill cemetery late at night in winter, I always take my faithful dog with me.

There's nothing more peaceful than a cemetery after dark, but it is kinda spooky, and it's nice to have a dog along to warn you of anything out of the ordinary.

Titus said...

I love dogs more than people.

tits.

dmoelling said...

In the pre-Islamic Zororastian teachings Dogs were great Allies in the search for the Truth and detecting the Lie.

I think Iranians often look back to their Persian pre-islamic days. THere are traditional holidays with a lot of partying that are also frowned upon by the Ayatollahs.

(Thank you Jimmie Carter!)

bagoh20 said...

"He opened the car door to let the dog escape but an officer jumped out and pulled a gun on the dog, he says.

"I threw myself on my dog and said, 'You have to shoot me before you kill him,'" Milad says. A group of neighbors came out to defend him and, he says, eventually the police backed off from killing or confiscating the dog. But they suspended Milad's driver's license for six months and took his car for three months."


If this was the U.S. and he had some drugs, the dog would be dead, he'd be in jail, and the car would be sold.

The land of the free.

Dose of Sanity said...

So, this is a very fox-newsian poll of you, Althouse.

This is a very daily-showian indictment of Fox News of you, Dose. You know - high on emotionalism, very low on fact.


I'm referring in specific to the fox news "You decide" polls. They are absolutely notorious for the leading-answers of the poll "options". I dare say that even the most hardcore fox-news fan would admit it.

Yes, I actually read fox news. Don't jump to conclusions about me :)

sorepaw said...
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rocketeer67 said...

Oh, I don't doubt you watch Fox News, Dose. I expect it's rather like traveling to a country where you don't speak the language and watching the news there. ;)

rocketeer67 said...

Are you in Wisconsin currently, Titus? Did you go to the Show of Shows last weekend?

SUTA!

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Rocketeer

See Sorepaw's comment. That's exactly what I'm referring to.

I was just commenting that Althouse's poll didn't give real choices, just like fox news polls.

Michael K said...

I didn't know you had 15% rag head readers.

Dose of Sanity said...

I didn't know you had 15% rag head readers.

During discussions on Islam, I often hear "Why do they hate freedom/america/democracy so much some end up becoming terrorists?"

I submit to you the answer is people like Michael K.

bagoh20 said...

"I submit to you the answer is people like Michael K."

"I keeeeel youuuu!"

andinista said...

In the old days, when kids ran barefoot everywhere (and even today, when kids run barefoot through the backyard grass), uncollected dog waste is a great vector for all sorts of nasty parasites.

Anybody who thinks living with dogs is way cool, doesn't have the chore of cleaning up after the dog. And doesn't mourn the loss of a clean patch of grass to lie in and watch the clouds go by. And can't go out and pick the dandelions in the grass for the supper salad.

Christopher in MA said...

Well, the Gemara talks about dogs being unclean, and I believe there are several strands of Judaism which do not tolerate dogs (is this an Arab thing? Do all desert lands hate dogs?). But I'm willing to give Judaism a bit of slack on this.

My bottom line, still, is the same as Lyssa - I love dogs and don't trust anyone who doesn't. Had to put mine to sleep the other week, and now am waiting for two puppies to arrive sometime next month.

wv - "ovelats." The muscles you build up putting a cake in the oven.

Scott M said...

I submit to you the answer is people like Michael K.

Glibness gets you nowhere.

MadisonMan said...

andinista, I have a dog, and can lie in the back yard, and pick the greens in the lawn to eat (although not now -- too bitter). Cleaning up after a dog isn't much of a chore. It just means you are a good neighbor.

Dose of Sanity said...

Glibness gets you nowhere.
Made me laugh though!

Titus said...

Go Regiment.

My friend is doing their guard! They are amazing this year and all female! Yeaa. The opener is so sweet.

They need to work on Elsa's Procession to make it more dramatic and LONGER!

Otherwise, love Regiment.

Triangle Man said...

Glibness gets you nowhere

Is there some anti-glib campaign? You and Tom Cruise?

Sixty Grit said...
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Methadras said...

Who are the douche nozzles in that poll that chose the other two options of dog vulgarity? Please stand up, nozzles.

G Joubert said...

Come on. This poll is a no-brainer.

MikeR said...

Hey, someone's dog tore my pants last week, or at least scratched them up a little. Ban!

MarkG said...

Alright, someone mentioned poop. I've read that if you feed your dog only raw meat, it will have to crap just once per week.

I saw a wolf turd once in northern MN. Imagine a giant dog turn composed of only wet fur. No bile or any brownish stuff.

Scott M said...

Is there some anti-glib campaign? You and Tom Cruise?

Not at all. I just don't cotton ta rubes encroaching on my glibmeister territory.

cubanbob said...

andinista said...
In the old days, when kids ran barefoot everywhere (and even today, when kids run barefoot through the backyard grass), uncollected dog waste is a great vector for all sorts of nasty parasites.

Anybody who thinks living with dogs is way cool, doesn't have the chore of cleaning up after the dog. And doesn't mourn the loss of a clean patch of grass to lie in and watch the clouds go by. And can't go out and pick the dandelions in the grass for the supper salad.

7/19/11 10:35 AM

How about buying a patch of land and putting a fence around it and lie on your own grass and pick your own dandelions.

Oligonicella said...

andinista --

"...uncollected dog waste is a great vector for all sorts of nasty parasites."

I think you're thinking of all the horse shit.

The two real problems are whipworms and Cryptosporidium. Both not that common, now or then.

"Anybody who thinks living with dogs is way cool, doesn't have the chore of cleaning up after the dog."

Anyone with a dog has that chore. Just like everyone with a kid does. I think living with dogs *and* kids is cool.

MarkG said...

The Ayatolla is just just jealous that a dog can lick his own balls but the Ayatolla can't.

cubanbob said...

Dose of Sanity said...
So, this is a very fox-newsian poll of you, Althouse.

Your only option that doesn't call dogs vulgar is the first one.

7/19/11 10:06 AM

And of course NYT,CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Washington Post etc are just all so scientific and so carefully crafted to avoid bias.

JAL said...

I hate push polls.

Amy Schley said...

It's worth noting that feral dogs will eat humans, both alive and dead. This probably accounts for the traditional belief that dogs are unclean.

Sixty Grit said...
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JAL said...

Dog ownership is a beautiful part of human life that should be available to all.

?

How about a less over the top description of dog / human relationship?

Scott M said...

I hate push polls.

Aside from the obvious naughty bits answer, is there such a thing as a pull poll?

JAL said...

I wonder where PETA is on this question.

They don't think humans can / should "own" aniumals.

But Islamic control of the world would put an end to that ... while also ending many dogs' existence.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)




Pigs I understand…dogs…I don’t. Really if you can’t have a dog, or if dogs are “unclean” and therefore suspect, I mean how can anyone, in good conscience, be Muslim? We are talking about DOGS here people….I can think of far more PEOPLE that I’d rather have as neighbors, than I can think of dogs I’d hate to live next door to.

Dose of Sanity said...

I wonder where PETA is on this question.

They don't think humans can / should "own" aniumals.


Well, that's not true, so you can stop wondering. :)

TMink said...

We just got two puppies! They are a beagle/hound/terrier mix and have brought much joy to our household. I respect other cultures, but it is frankly difficult to understand a culture that is suspicious of dogs.

Trey

JAL said...

@Scott M --

Let's create a pull poll!

Let me think .....

Seriously - back at you later.

G Joubert said...

It's worth noting that feral dogs will eat humans, both alive and dead.

Legend has it that the Unabomber ate dog meat to survive in his little cabin, and as a result domestic dogs he encountered in the community would react by snapping and snarling at him because they could smell it on him.

TMink said...

I am quite supportive of the various cultures that believe swine to be unclean.

More bacon for me.

Trey

Scott M said...

I respect other cultures, but it is frankly difficult to understand a culture that is suspicious of dogs.

I treat cultures the same as people. If they are deserving, they get respect. As far as dogs go, anyone remember the bruhaha in Scotland over putting a little puppy on police recruiting posters? A couple of Muslims (yeah, there are Muslims in Scotland serving on city councils) in positions of influence decided it was insensitive culturally.

Pet ownership, dogs and cats in particular, is wholly engrained in western culture. How about the offended councilmen have some cultural sensitivity for that fact?

Multiculturalism is simply another way for the minority to browbeat the majority until they either reach parity or become the majority themselves. I don't see a lot of multiculturalistic fervor in majority Muslim countries, by the by.

edutcher said...

When I joked to The Blonde's kid brother after his dog and two boys had jumped all over me upon being introduced, "Kids and dogs love me", his answer was that it was the best recommendation he knew.

PS Needless to say, if the Muzzlims come near the pups, The Blonde will see that they're packed off to their 72 white grapes.

Henry said...

The missing option, of course, is:

( ) Dogs taste good.

If there are dogs in Iran, but no one is allowed to own a dog, then who owns them? Does the state own the unowned dogs?

If an Iranian owns a dog and lets it loose because of the criminalization of dog ownership, who is liable for the activities of the dog? I see an opening for vulgar Western lawyers in this.

MayBee said...

I used to take my dog for walks past the Iranian embassy, and it gave me great joy when he would pee there.

At the Pakistan embassy, there was a man who used to look for me walking with my dog and he'd come out and pet him. He said he had two Afghans(!) at home in Pakistan and he missed them terribly.

Curious George said...

JAL said...
I wonder where PETA is on this question.

They don't think humans can / should "own" aniumals.


Not true. Their pretzel logic on this matter is pretty funny though.

rocketeer67 said...

See Sorepaw's comment. That's exactly what I'm referring to.

Uh, yeah - I got that. I just find it interesting that you picked Fox as the example. It's hardly the only estrabluished news organization with wildly skewed and leading internet poll questions. It's not just a Fox News thing.

gerry said...
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Dose of Sanity said...

@ Rocketeer

It's by far the worst. None are great, true., but I havent read a "you decide" poll without laughing at it yet. Don't have to be so defensive over fox news, really.

@ DogsinIranquestion

No one "owns" the stray dogs in Iran (just like you wouldnt think of anyone "owning" the rats in NYC). They are regularly culled in a most atrocious manner. It's what got the issue to the forefront of the Humane Society.

Hopefully the law and the culls, change.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...During discussions on Islam, I often hear "Why do they hate freedom/america/democracy so much some end up becoming terrorists?" I submit to you the answer is people like Michael K...."

Pretty sad when namecalling is all it takes to turn a Muslim into a terrorist.

Dose of Sanity said...

Pretty sad when namecalling is all it takes to turn a Muslim into a terrorist.

Pretty sad you think that is just name-calling.

edutcher said...

Dose of Sanity said...

I wonder where PETA is on this question.

They don't think humans can / should "own" aniumals.



Well, that's not true, so you can stop wondering. :)


Try again. "Pet parents" are the PC thing these days.

Ownership is so 20th century.

rocketeer67 said...

It's by far the worst.

I'd have to say Fox is about the same in my view as most of the others. Sorry if you perceive I'm being defensive about Fox News. I don't watch it much, really, as I don't have cable at home and the cable at work seems to be perpetually stuck on CNN Headline News. I do cop to finding it interesting (and I still do) that your first reaction to a skewed poll is not "hey, skewed poll!" but rather "hey, that's just like Fox!"

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...Pretty sad you think that is just name-calling..."

Well, that's pretty much what it is. Even if you want to take it a step further and call it a slur, bigot-speak, etc., its still a piss poor reason to become a murdering terrorist.

But then again, I don't suffer from the bigotry of low expectations.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Edutcher

Ah, I was addressing it in the more general sense. PETA is trying to discourage the use of the term "ownership" less for PC reasons and more for legal reasons.

Right now, pets are considered nothing but property under the law. Killing someone's dog results in the same civil penalty as breaking their bike (whatever the FMV of the dog/bike may be).

Criminal penalities aside.

Personally, I think pets should be reclassified. We're enough a pet-loving society to justify it. I would be horrified if anyone did anything to my pets.

Valentine Smith said...

Dogs are what make people human. At least in my case.

Scott M said...

Personally, I think pets should be reclassified.

Let's reclassify the unborn first, then I'm with you. Priorities, you know...

Dose of Sanity said...

@ hoosier

It was an off-the-cuff remark at someone's obviously bigotted remark.

That said, long history of being looked down and harassed has long motivated people, both in a personal and public setting, to restort to violence.

The more we call them slurs, the more we say "comments" like "nuke em all in sandland" and legitimize presidental candidates saying they cant BUILD A PLACE OF WORSHIP (cain), the easier it isfor recruiters to pray upon the minds of young, impressionable boys.

If we treated Muslims with respect and focused our hatred (and guns) on just terrorists, we would be much more likely to being able to "win" this war on terror.

...well, that was a rant, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Dose of Sanity said...

Let's reclassify the unborn first, then I'm with you. Priorities, you know...

I agree. (gasp! I warned you about not judging me)

We should focus our efforts in that area on preventing unwatned pregancies. (yes, free birth control is a great idea)

Include the exceptions for health of mother and rape, and you have my support.

Lucien said...

In California, last time I looked, it is illegal to keep ferrets as pets. I don't know about honey badgers, though.

Scott M said...

That said, long history of being looked down and harassed has long motivated people, both in a personal and public setting, to restort to violence.

As a straight, white, non-handicapped, Christian, father and husband, then, I take it I can start blowing people up with your complete understanding? My people have been under attack for decades.

MayBee said...

Personally, I think pets should be reclassified. We're enough a pet-loving society to justify it. I would be horrified if anyone did anything to my pets.

I would be horrified if something happened to my pet, but this idea seems like a slew of manslaughter charges in the making.

MarkG said...

"That said, long history of being looked down and harassed has long motivated people, both in a personal and public setting, to restort to violence."

You're comparing Muslims to the tormented kid who starts shooting everyone at his school?

sorepaw said...
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rocketeer67 said...

Free birth control? Who's paying for that? Wait what I'm I saying - it's free!!!

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Scott

I'm not condoning ANY violence, by ANY means.

If you are looking for motivation and recruting tools though, we are providing them with plenty.

Yes, they absolutely shouldn't resort to violence - but why throw fuel on the fire?

jamboree said...
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Scott M said...

If you are looking for motivation and recruting tools though, we are providing them with plenty.

Yes, they absolutely shouldn't resort to violence - but why throw fuel on the fire?


They provide themselves with plenty. The mere fact that we have female judges that can send men to prison or the death chamber is fuel enough for them to hate us. Once you get past a certain level of hate, it doesn't matter what comes after.

Frankly, doing stupid shit like avoiding the actual profile of the people that have committed (and will commit) major terrorist actions on our soil is ridiculous, suicidal, and future generations will judge us extremely harshly for it.

Violence to defend myself, my loved ones, or the defenseless around me is warranted and appropriate if nothing else will work.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

If you are looking for motivation and recruting tools though, we are providing them with plenty


1) Yeah I agree, we let them live here, work here, worship here, have no Mukhabrat , don’t discriminate against them on the basis of family, clan, or tribal affiliation, don’t rape their womyn, or feed them to plastic shredders, it’s no wonder they’re terrorists! I mean look at what we INFLICT on them!
2) So, IF a TEA Party person plants a bomb, s/he can make the same claim, that racist, bigoted slurs made him/her do it?
Dose you’re being completely foolish, here….

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...If we treated Muslims with respect..."

Respect is earned. It's also two way street. Kind of hard to respect a religion that treats women the way they do, or thinks being gay is punishable by death or imprisonment.

Epiphyte said...

Dose of Sanity:

"If we treated Muslims with respect and focused our hatred (and guns) on just terrorists . . ."

The two are not always so easy to separate:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/uk-moves-toward-broader-definition-of-extremism-including-the-advocacy-of-sharia-law.html

rhhardin said...

Your ideas about hygiene change considerably when you get a dog.

rhhardin said...

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with dogs.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Epi

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

@ Hoosier

That's not true for most muslims. (and I'm against it, of course)

@ Joe

You could say that, but it wouldnt be a good reason. my point is why shouldnt be doing stupid things like giving them recruiting tools.

phx said...

I love dogs. In my tradition it's not a good idea to own them or any other animal.
We can still be friends.

ken in sc said...

Some people have all the qualities of a dog except bravery and loyalty.

Scott M said...

Where does recruiting tools end and our own security start...or visa versa, DOS?

Quaestor said...

Dose of Sanity wrote:
They are absolutely notorious for the leading-answers of the poll "options". I dare say that even the most hardcore fox-news fan would admit it.

Yes, I actually read fox news. Don't jump to conclusions about me :)


Then you ought to be able to link to an example.

pst314 said...

"If we treated Muslims with respect..."

In other words, we're supposed to stop noticing that Islam has a 1400-year history of intolerance and disrespect? We're supposed to pretend that Islam is not a religion of war, conquest, enslavement and exploitation?

If we only kiss Muslim ass enough, THEN they'll stop killing us?

That's some powerful weed you're smoking.

Oligonicella said...

Dose of Sanity --

"Yes, they absolutely shouldn't resort to violence - but why throw fuel on the fire?"

You understand that simply being a Christian or Jew means to them that you are potential slave material?

You understand that simply being a member of any other religion, or especially no religion, means to them that you should die?

You understand that, right?

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...That's not true for most muslims..."

Perhaps. Those in Indonesia seem less inclined to self detonate among innocent civilians.

Sorry Dose, but when a country like Iran makes it illegal to own a dog, its rather hard to find common ground, let alone respect.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

my point is why shouldnt be doing stupid things like giving them recruiting tools


So Muslims aren’t real people, capable of living in a Modern, Diverse Liberal Culture? Look at what has been thrown at Palin or the TEA Party, and would that “excuse” violence, no it wouldn’t?

So now you’re saying a few people, saying a few bad things, makes “Muslims” become terrorists? Really how come it doesn’t make Catholics or Christians, or TEA Party people join terrorist groups? But MUSLIMS, the poor dears, they are SO vulnerable to “abuse” they are driven to join terror groups?

You are either:
1) Very silly; or
2) Very condescending to Muslims.
Looks to me like Muslims and you are trying to carve out a little niche for Muslims…OK be critical of anyone you want, but NOT Muslims, they can’t take it. Well learning to take it is a fundamental part of living in a culturally diverse, society.

Quaestor said...

Dose of sanity wrote:
Include the exceptions for health of mother and rape, and you have my support.

I have never understood this rape exception most "conditional" pro-choice persons are willing to make. Please explain, paying particular attention to the part where the convicted rapist gets 20 years (out in 7 with good behavior) and the baby gets a death sentence.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

I have never understood this rape exception most "conditional" pro-choice persons are willing to make. Please explain, paying particular attention to the part where the convicted rapist gets 20 years (out in 7 with good behavior) and the baby gets a death sentence


One word:
“Optics”

Pro-Life folks don’t want to seem to be on the side of rape and rapists…..

Hoosier Daddy said...

"...You are either: 1) Very silly; or 2) Very condescending to Muslims...."

I'm pretty confident that if roles were reversed and it was white Christians keeping women covered, banning dogs, executing gays, and self detonating in the name of Jesus, you would not be hearing much about earning their respect or slapping COEXIST stickers on a Prius.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Steyn has an article posted with a picture of a school cafeteria in Toronto that subs as a mosque to allow the kids to attend prayer. The first row has the boys, girls sit in back and a third row for those girls who are menstrating.

Evidently if you're on your period, you get the cheap seats.

Roger J. said...

General Sheridan's prescription was correct--especially if you substitute ragheads for indians

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)




I worked an Eid al-Fitr “Party”, Pre-9/11. It was funny…the “Imam/Mujtahid/Shaman” stood up before the congregants and listed off the activities up-coming, and how more parents, congregants and money were necessary for whatever was upcoming…just like any other religion! “If we’re going to have Vacation Bible School this year, we need the parents and congregation to step up.” I had to laugh, it was SO quintessentially American.

To see a Potato Sack, With Eyes, squeal down an inflatable slide, with her children looking on, warmed my heart..and in that moment, though I was Jew, and she a Muslim, we were all human. Pity that moments like that don’t last…

bagoh20 said...

"You understand that, right?"


Ummm, but, ...

Roger J. said...

Joe: if you are a jew, try getting into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia--you really havent seen the rags up close and personal--only the westernized kind.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Questor


I have never understood this rape exception most "conditional" pro-choice persons are willing to make. Please explain, paying particular attention to the part where the convicted rapist gets 20 years (out in 7 with good behavior) and the baby gets a death sentence.


You are ignoring the Rape Victim in your scenario. Perhaps she doesn't want to relive the rape every time she looks at her own child? Do you think you should make that decision for her?

TMink said...

"its still a piss poor reason to become a murdering terrorist."

Indeed!

Which makes Christians obviously superior because they get called all kinds of names and are infrequent terrorists.

Trey

JAL said...

We at PETA very much love the animal companions who share our homes, but we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"—i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"—never existed. The international pastime of domesticating animals has created an overpopulation crisis; as a result, millions of unwanted animals are destroyed every year as "surplus."

This is the public face. If the institution of "pet-keeping" could be eliminated, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

So I wonder what PETA thinks of the mullahs declaring it illegal to wwn dogs .. for whatever reason.

BTW -- the dogs aren't "vulgar" -- it's the western values.

Clearly rh and Irene in particular are vulgar.

Scott M said...

You are ignoring the Rape Victim in your scenario. Perhaps she doesn't want to relive the rape every time she looks at her own child? Do you think you should make that decision for her?

You're ignoring the very real children of rape that have grown up to become normal, productive members of society. There are a couple of notable examples that come to mind immediately. Yet you would suggest they were not as important as the "feelings" of their mothers.

Roger J. said...

Koreans love dogs too--espcially in bulgogi

And havent the Chicoms restricted dog ownership?

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Joe: if you are a jew, try getting into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia--you really havent seen the rags up close and personal--only the westernized kind


Dood/doodette try meeting Filipino Catholics, you haven’t seen the mackerel Snappers up close and personal, only the westernized kind.

Which leads me to a larger point…what IS “Islam” or “Christianity”? Islam is what my father and I practice, not those crazees down the street. Christianity is what my family practices at the First United Methodist Church, Two Sticks Missouri…not what those Papists squawk on about.

Are you saying “my” Muslims aren’t “real” Muslims? Only Saudi Muslims, or Muslims on the Hajj? Was Mohamet Atta a representative Muslim, or are the millions who don’t scream “Death to America” the “real” Muslims?

rocketeer67 said...

You are ignoring the Rape Victim in your scenario. Perhaps she doesn't want to relive the rape every time she looks at her own child? Do you think you should make that decision for her?

1. No he's not.
2. Apparently keeping the baby is the only option on your planet.
3. The Law makes more momentous collective decisions on behalf of individuals every. damned. day.

Roger J. said...

Joe: its dude

I am sure daniel pearl shared you sensitivites

I do take your point--as is true in any population--there are some really fabulous human beings. My interpreter in Saudi Arabia was Sudanese: Mutawakil Mohammed al Hassan. I called him al assad al sahara (the lion of the desert). Alas he was not representative of the wahabis of the kingdom.

JAL said...

“In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.”
— Ingrid Newkirk, Newsday

Scott M said...

“In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.”

So I don't get the joy of having a dog in my home? If her vision were realized, how would I get one? How could possibly, morally, keep in not only in my house/yard, but keep it from not piddling all over the place?

In the end, I think it would lovely if we started with a notion of shock collars on stupid people.

rhhardin said...

Islam runs like organized crime. The biggest thugs take over and run the thing.

Islamic justice happens in the next world, not this one. That's the opposite of the Western idea.

No matter how cynically the West talks about justice, and whatever its failures to live up to it, the language leaves open the goal of its attainment in this world.

Islam does not.

Pick your side.

Michael K said...

"Islam, I often hear "Why do they hate freedom/america/democracy so much some end up becoming terrorists?""

Yes, that is the reason they hate us. It has nothing to do with 7th century mentality and the absence of women so that boys have to bugger each other.

What a brilliant insight you have into Islam !

By the way, there are serious Iran scholars who believe that, if the Iranians succeed in throwing off the Nazi regime they have now, they will also throw off Islam.fratechl

Cedarford said...

MadisonMan said...
I wonder why the Prophet hated dogs so.

================
The Prophet was not a suburbanite living in the suburbs with white picket fences and all into eco-awareness and what a friendly pootch his neighbors golden labrador was.

He lived in a world where within hours of his friend Abdul was killed, a pack of dogs was chewing his former pal's face off - while jackals and vultures waited in the wings.

In our present day thinking, we too think our own contemporary scavangers - tens of thousands of maggots squirming through a dead murdered baby's body, lawyers, or turkey vultures ripping through a dead cat on the side of the road - are rather repulsive things. But doggies, no longer in the scavanger class that Mohammed encountered them as - are our buddies!

The problem is Fundie Muslims like Fundie Christians - are unable to adjust for changing times altering perceptions. Jesus, Leviticus, Mohammed may have had entirely different observations and truths and values had they lived in the present and formed their beliefs.

Even now, our perception alters - a lone seagull flying above a cliff on a gray November day is a beautiful sight. 10 thousand rooting through garbage is repulsive. I watch with wonderment as sharks go by my boat...I would detest them if I was in the water with them with my boat sunk a thousand feet below.

Don't blame Mohammed for thinking as 100% of people in his time did. Blame todays Fundies that cannot accept their "absolute values" must change with the circumstances of the times.

John said...

Sick fucking barbarians.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Alas he was not representative of the wahabis of the kingdom


But neither was Mohamet Atta….in my example had they known I was a Jew, and a Zionist I’m sure there would have been “trouble.” I don’t claim it as a Total Kumbaya Moment, just one where one can see that “they” aren’t entirely what we think “they” are…

And I noted it was an AMERICAN “mosque.” Not being supported by the State, and having a diverse Muslim population, everything from US whites/Blacks, to Pakistanis, to Indonesians, to Saudi’s, or Malays, and some very sophisticated and comely pant suits sported, presumably, by some very fetching Lebanese womyn…everything from a clinging red pants suit, to a Nehru Jacket, to Afghani pants and funny pancake hats, to the Full Burqua. So not getting State support they HAD to appeal to the congregation and because it was diverse, it wasn’t a very doctrinaire group, I’m thinking…and that’s why I called it “American.” American churches/synagogues/mosques have to keep the lights on by meeting market demands.

Alex said...

Nobody I know watches Faux Noise.

John said...

Cederford,

As usual you know just enough about a subject to be dangerous. Man has had domestic dogs for 1000s of years. There was nothing about the 8th century middle east that meant you had to dislike dogs. The Egyptians and the Romans kept dogs. Muhamad was a moron. And you are a know nothing.

Oligonicella said...

Cedarford --

"Don't blame Mohammed for thinking as 100% of people in his time did."

Hyperbole doesn't help. Bedouins and many other Islamic people have always kept dogs.

rhhardin said...

Dog with tire.

JAL said...

just one where one can see that “they” aren’t entirely what we think “they” are…

Maturity is knowing that "they" are not all "theys."

Wisdom is knowing that that does not change the fact that a significant movement exists in the "theys" to eliminate the "thems (us)".

By whatever means are handy and work.

JAL said...

C4 The problem is Fundie Muslims like Fundie Christians - are unable to adjust for changing times altering perceptions.

Define your terms and give specifics.

You have one hour.

wv skyled
When Skyler quotes you.

DADvocate said...

Dogs should own people.

In a sense, they may already. Dogs lay around and pretty much do as they please while humans provide them with food, shelter and other goodies. Most dogs in America lead a pretty damn good life.

JAL said...

Musharraf had a couple little dogs.

Another reason why the mullahs didn't like him. Vulgar Western Pakistani.

Cedarford said...

dmoelling said...
In the pre-Islamic Zororastian teachings Dogs were great Allies in the search for the Truth and detecting the Lie.

I think Iranians often look back to their Persian pre-islamic days. THere are traditional holidays with a lot of partying that are also frowned upon by the Ayatollahs.

(Thank you Jimmie Carter!)

=====================
Can't blame Jimmy Carter for a widespread popular Revolution. (The Revolutionary protests, which one show ran old tapes of to illustrate the difference beween them and the "mass dissident protests" of a couple years ago - were 20 time larger).
In the early 80s, Nixon admitted his and other Administrations were blinded by a major US intelligence failure. The CIA and others bought into the Shah's people's assurances that the people were behind him too much. That Carter couldn't have "stopped things" from resulting in a change of power with such strong islamism and resentment fueling the Revolution.

Where Carter badly erred, Nixon said, was in making the US weak in the eyes of our enemies. By making all his actions about "saving the hero Hostages" - he has encouraged the spread of Islamism, invited the Soviet Union into Afghanistan and Africa. "The hostage thing...as important as those lives are...are secondary to America's vital interests. We had to retaliate, encourage a secular transition of power...but we didn't and emboldened our foes". Nixon concluded. And said he and other Administrations missed the ball, before Carter.

JAL said...

@ Scott M
You are an evil person, that is clear. Ingrid implies so, and actually says as much elsewhere.

So I don't get the joy of having a dog in my home?

No.

If her vision were realized, how would I get one?

You wouldn't.

Or it would be like Prohibition. Like it is in Iran.

They would have a run on barkless dogs.

How could possibly, morally, keep in not only in my house/yard, but keep it from not piddling all over the place?

?

In the end, I think it would lovely if we started with a notion of shock collars on stupid people.

There are days....

Scott M said...

@Jal

Yeah, that was a botched sentence...swype isn't blog friendly, that's for sure.

andinista said...

All right, all you civilized dog lovers, you asked for it.

Some years ago, a friend visited rural areas of South Asia. As it once was, so there it still is. The people crapped outside, no outhouse. When our friend asked about that, her hosts pointed to the family dog. Sure enough, the next morning the waste was gone. I had a dog that did likewise several times: took her backpacking, she dug it up and rolled in it.

Dogs are unclean. They will eat anything. I've lived with dogs all my life. But I don't shrink from the truth. In the country, dogs clean up the place. In the city, they are net polluters.

andinista said...

cubanbob says: "[buy] a patch of land and [put] a fence around it and lie on your own grass and pick your own dandelions".

Did. That's the backyard, where the dog goes. I've got a grassy front yard, unfenced. That's where the neighbors' dogs go. I guess I'll have to put up a nice white picket fence, so I can grow a vegetable garden in the front yard, and then go to jail.

george said...

I see no difference between this and the left wing's jihad to ban light bulbs. It is all the same thing done by the same people with the same mentality.

Both groups want to return us to the 7th century.

Cedarford said...

John said...
Cederford,

As usual you know just enough about a subject to be dangerous. Man has had domestic dogs for 1000s of years. There was nothing about the 8th century middle east that meant you had to dislike dogs. The Egyptians and the Romans kept dogs. Muhamad was a moron. And you are a know nothing.
================
Unfortunately, as you say I write knowing a little and that makes me a moron...you write in complete ignorance of the history of dogs and how they were used in older societies and thought of.
That ancient people saw certain value in utility from dogs does not mean they treated them as pets - in the contemporary Western way.
You also fail to understand the distinction between sedentary agrarian Romans and Egyptians that had various "pets" and nomads and other cultures that see animals as "working animals/pests" only.

AllenS said...

Michael Vick was unavailable to comment.

dbp said...

Humans and dogs go back a long ways. Any religion that denies its people a part in this ancient relationship is one which closes off a significant part of what it means to be human.

This is a serious flaw in a religion which has pretensions to being universal.

Roger J. said...

Wasnt it Mark Twain who said something to the effect, "if heaven has no dogs I'd rather go to hell?"

My personal relationship with dogs (two great danes and a mastiff) has been wonderful--they have lit up my life and I would not trade them for anything.

My dogs were better than most people I know (although I dont have a large circle of friends)

Ironclad said...

Here is the hit list of inherently "unclean" things in Islam. (Body) contact with any of these automatically means you have to ritually clean yourself (basically a rub over with water and sand).

1. Urine
2. Stool
3. Semen
4. Blood
5. Corpses
6. Dogs
7. Pigs
8. Kafir
9. Intoxicating liquids.

Note #8 - Kafir. That means a non-islamic person. That is why Muslims don't like to shake hands with foreigners - you make them ritually unclean.

BTW = even in Saudi Arabia, the desert people keep dogs as working animals, sometimes usefulness overrules ritual.

Roger J. said...

one of the favorite columns in the islamic newspaper in the english edition was "ask the imam" one of the theological questions was the importance of washing after one passed wind. the answer from the imam was you had to wash again and avoid foods that would lead to flatulence, esp camel meat.

Those ragheads: a laugh a minute

Roger J. said...

Daniel Pearl was unavailable for comment. Allahu Akhbar and all of that

Chip Ahoy said...

All Iranians, ALL I tell you, know the story of the mullah who was on his way to morning prayers when suddenly splashed with water by a dog shaking itself in a nearby drainage ditch. Refusing to look directly at the animal, the mullah rushed on and muttered, "God willing, it's a goat."

Oligonicella said...

Cedarford --

"That ancient people saw certain value in utility from dogs does not mean they treated them as pets - in the contemporary Western way."

So, when a Bedouin shares his meal with his dog inside the tent first, then his family; kisses the dog and fondles its ears affectionately; allows the dog to sleep inside the tent as well - that's way different?

Or, jumping over to China, breeding little lap dogs and giant palace defenders, treating them essentially the same as above - that too is way different?

Or, now to South America, breeding little yappers that were kept as palace pets for both sexes of royalty - that's different too?

Or an Irish king ransoming a small fortune for the return of his wolf hounds, which he actually sleeps with and wears shirts woven from their hair as a sign of prestige - that too is way different?


Don't think so.

Chip Ahoy said...

I encounter people in the elevator with their dogs all the time. It gives me a chance to ignore the person and give attention directly to the dog. "Hi there pooch! Are you taking your person out for a walk again? Oh boy, are you going outside to be a pooper? D'ya wanna sniff me?" *ding* "See ya!"

KenK said...

My dogs love Islam! They water and fertilize the local Islamic Center's lawn and trees a few times a week free of charge. Mighty nice of them considering eh?

X said...

So Islam hates dogs. Figures. They probably like cats.

rhhardin said...

Saint Bernards in the Alps devour travellers lost in the snow, and then use the brandy for drunken orgies afterwards, according to Thurber.

G Joubert said...

Was it in The Plague, set in Algeria, where Camus goes on about the "filthy cur"?

Bartender Cabbie said...

I like Ken K's dog.

Francisco D said...

I am trying to become the person my dogs think I am.

'nuff said, except to mention that they are Golden Retrievers.

Seeing Red said...

From 2008 - Rantburg archives:


Saudi Arabia's religious police have announced a ban on selling pet cats and dogs or exercising them in public in the Saudi capital because of men using them as a means of making passes at women, an official said on Wednesday.

Othman al-Othman, head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Riyadh, known as the Muttawa, told the Saudi edition of al-Hayat daily that the commission has started enforcing an old religious edict. He said the commission was implementing a decision taken a month ago by the acting governor of the capital, Prince Sattam bin Abdul Aziz, adding that it follows an old edict issued by the supreme council of Saudi scholars.

The reason behind reinforcing the edict now was a rising fashion among some men using pets in public "to make passes on women and disturb families", he said, without giving more details.

rhhardin said...

"[Dog] plays an unusual trick in first getting its hearty feeling in one or two special phrases, which seem already to depend upon a feeling about dogs denied in other uses of the word. Before the Restoration the dog of metaphor, by and large, is snarling, a sycophant, an underdog, loose in sex and attracted by filth, cruel if it dare; 'love me, love by dog' means 'love the meanest thing about me.' There is the Biblical dog, a pariah, living on crumbs and Jezebel as they drop ('a dog's chance' -- he is dependent on human society and yet friedless in it); and also the dog-faced Thersites of Homer, a mean and envious mocker (staying in the manger, barking at the moon). Shylock is eminently a dog of this sort and often called so; a man so placed can hardly be expected not to pervert justice, though this is a warning for you, not an excuse for him. It is not clear how far this feeling would apply to actual dogs; they do not get the full weight of it, but the change in a stock proverb seems to show that the earlier feeling was that they deserve pity as being normally (yet therefore rightly) ill-treated. 'As good a deed as to help a dog over a stile,' 1546, an act of supererogatory and unconventional mercy; whereas the version of 1638, 'help a lame dog over a stile,' puts in the adjective to make an otherwise natural action pathetic, and is a direct metaphor for helping a man. It is clear anyway that very mixed feelings are there to be drawn on."

Wm. Empson, The Structure of Complex Words, "The English Dog," p.163

Karl said...

@bagoh20 said "If this was the U.S. and he had some drugs, the dog would be dead, he'd be in jail, and the car would be sold."

If this was Kenosha County, Wisconsin, the dog would be dead courtesy of a dog fearing County Deputy.

Happened twice in 2010.

Gary Rosen said...

"Cedarford --

"Don't blame Mohammed for thinking as 100% of people in his time did."

Hyperbole doesn't help. Bedouins and many other Islamic people have always kept dogs"

(+ another post noting that dogs have been domesticated for 1000s of years)

Can we *finally* dispense with the notion that well, C-fudd may be a grump, he may be a bigot, he may be an insufferable flaming asshole but boy he knows what he's talking about? The guy *always* gets caught lying when someone comes along who actually knows something about what he is claiming. He doesn't know jack, he just makes shit up to support whatever deluded talking point he's trying to make.

Steve Koch said...

Took my dog for a long walk (off leash, nobody else was around) in the woods today. He was a happy dog.

DADvocate said...

Actually, I think people should be able to marry their dogs.

MarkG said...

Look at my avatar. Does that dog like to eat poop? Yes, yes and triple yes!
Gross.

Michael McNeil said...

He's sure cute though.

Michael K said...

My bassett hound will only poop in oak leaves and wipes his feet afterward by scratching the ground with all four. Once, he had a loose one and some got on his hind end. He dragged his bottom along the ground to wipe it off.

We were in Tucson all weekend and he was not too happy. Constipated most of the weekend. He is very glad to be home now.

I have grown up with dogs and there are dog people and cat people. Rarely both. Muslims treat their women like dogs so they don't need any.

Scott said...

to: MAdison Man

I read a history of Persia, recently, and apparently the Muslim abhorrence of dogs, was started, to specifically to annoy the Zoroastrians, over whom they gained the upper hand politically with the take over of the Persian Empire. They would taunt, torture and kill dogs, just to prove to the then. Zoroastrian majority, that they had the power. The Muslims also would wait until a Zoroastrian community had finished a religious building, and then take the building over as a mosque. So the prohibition against dogs, especially in Persia was a mark of cultural dominance by the Muslims.

Kathy Hutchins said...

"BTW = even in Saudi Arabia, the desert people keep dogs as working animals, sometimes usefulness overrules ritual."

The dogs they keep are salukis, which are conveniently classified as non-dogs in Islam so that humans can eat the food that they catch. In fact, the word for saluki in Arabic means "Gift of Allah." I know this because I had a saluki for 12 years; he was the most neurotic pain-in-the-ass animal I've had the misfortune to share space with in my entire life.

JAL said...

So Michael -- do you live in the Oak Creek Canyon area?

;-)