June 22, 2011

It's news — in the NYT — that a lot of black people these days think they'll be better off in the South

It's "an inversion of the so-called Great Migration" — in which black people moved "to the industrializing North to escape prejudice and find work."
About 17 percent of the African-Americans who moved to the South from other states in the past decade came from New York, far more than from any other state, according to census data. Of the 44,474 who left New York State in 2009, more than half, or 22,508, went to the South....

The movement is not limited to New York. The percentage of blacks leaving big cities in the East and in the Midwest and heading to the South is now at the highest levels in decades, demographers say....

“New York has lost some of its cachet for black people,” [said Spencer Crew, a history professor at George Mason University who was the curator of a prominent exhibit on the Great Migration at the Smithsonian Institution]. “During the Great Migration, blacks went north because you could find work if you were willing to hustle. But today, there is less of a struggle to survive in the South than in New York. Many blacks also have emotional and spiritual roots in the South. It is like returning home.”...

The Rev. Floyd H. Flake, pastor of the 23,000-member Greater Allen African Methodist Episcopal Cathedral in Jamaica, Queens, said he was losing hundreds of congregants yearly to Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and Virginia.

“For decades, Queens has been the place where the African-American middle class went to buy their first home and raise a family,” Mr. Flake said. “But now, we are seeing a reversal of this as African-Americans feel this is no longer as easy to achieve and that the South is more benevolent than New York.”
The South is more benevolent than New York.

164 comments:

Shouting Thomas said...

New York is also one of the highest tax states.

I'll bet this plays an important role in this as well. Many of the southern states have low taxes and a friendlier attitude to business. Which equals jobs.

New York State is hemorrhaging people who are leaving to escape high taxation and loss of jobs. California is even worse.

Liberal tax and spend philosophy at work.

TosaGuy said...

Now granted my experience is in cities around military installations, but what struck me about race relations in the south is that blacks and whites interact far more than they do in northern cities.

Joaquin said...

Not surprised that not just Blacks but all Americans find the South attractive.
I have lived in North carolina since 1985 and there is no way that I would move above the Mason-Dixon Line.
I travel all over the country on business and pleasure, and the South has them all beat.

HT said...

No, it's not news. I think I read years ago (when I was in DC), in the NYT in fact, about reverse migration to Atlanta. It is better in the South. For all of us. Much better. You can say it's about taxes, but that's not why it's better to me.

Shouting Thomas said...

Much better. You can say it's about taxes, but that's not why it's better to me.

I'm thinking about moving south.

Tell me more.

TWM said...

Silly black folk, don't they know the South is full of racist wannabe slave owners?

NYTNewYorker said...

The middle class is being crushed here in New York.

Trooper York said...

I have three clients who were New York city workers who moved to the South and are living on the transit workers pension. They are all black and they couldn't wait to leave the taxes and regulations that is driving so many out of New York.

MarkG said...

..."the South is more benevolent than New York."

Is benevolence what blacks are seeking when they decide to move to a new city? I doubt it. Or at least I hope not. It's not what other racial groups are seeking.

Richard Dolan said...

"The South is more benevolent than New York."

It doesn't have much to do with benevolence, and everything to do with going where the jobs are. It's also a commentary on the types of jobs being created in the NYC area, and the demographics of who can fill them. NYC is the only part of NY that's still growing -- but not so much for those in the middle economic strata. The same article (minus the racial angle) could be written about upstate NY, where the out-migration has been going on for a lot longer, to the point where large swaths of that part of the state are depopulating. For years the only growth industry there was the prisons, and even that is now coming to an end. But that story would be even bigger news for the folks at the NYT, and even if they stumbled across it on their way to an upstate second home, would find it too boring to print.

YoungHegelian said...

@ST,

It's more than the money. It's about culture.

Non-southerners just don't get how southern black culture is, and how, in spite of their past treatment in the South, blacks still see it as their cultural home.

I also see how, when I go back to visit my hometown in Alabama, that there's much more easy racial mixing now, even seeing, gosh!, interracial couples.

This shouldn't be a surprise. Once black and white southerners figured out that melanin doesn't mean a whole lot, they all speak the same language, eat the same food, worship the same God, and work the same land. It's not that difficult to try and be nice to each other.

Trooper York said...

It is very hard to live a middle class life style in NYC because the cost of living is so high.

A cop who makes $70,000 and a nurse who makes $60,000 are considered rich by Cuomo and the Democrats like Shelly Silver. If they own a house that they inherited from their family that might have appreciated, well then they are considered "millionaires' who need to be taxed and surtaxed and "millionaire-taxed" and driven into the ground.

That is why all kinds of people are feeling NYC and Nassau County.

TWM said...

"I'm thinking about moving south.

Tell me more."

Lower tax rates. Lower cost of living. More relaxed atmosphere. Friendlier folks as a rule. Much more to do and see than people realize - Atlanta, Savannah, Nashville, Louisville, Charlotte, etc. all are great cities with many cultural opportunities. Great colleges, the SEC, NASCAR, pro-sports, the Gulf Coast, food that will kill ya it is so good, but it's worth the price of the funeral.

E.M. Davis said...

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

Then again, summers in Ohio are roughly the same in armpittedness as those in Atlanta.

Trooper York said...

Personally I could never move to a rural area. Concrete is in my blood. I need the nightlife and the rhythm of the city.

TWM said...

"This shouldn't be a surprise. Once black and white southerners figured out that melanin doesn't mean a whole lot, they all speak the same language, eat the same food, worship the same God, and work the same land. It's not that difficult to try and be nice to each other."

Well said and so very true!!

bagoh20 said...

It would be cool if a Black could trace back and find the location where his ancestors worked as slaves. Then buy a piece of that property. The fact that such thing is economically and socially very possible today is a testament to what has been accomplished.

Rube said...

I have been in the Carolina's for 20 years. The cost of living is far better than the North and especially the North East. We have far more Blacks and I believe that we have integrated better than in Northern States. We have Black Doctors "a woman" that I went to for a while. All of our retail stores have blacks working including restaurants. Our polling stations alway's have a White and a Black lady working together. And to be able to vote one has to have a picture ID as well as there voter registration card. No acceptions. And we never seem to have a problem. Would I ever move North, no way.

TWM said...

"Personally I could never move to a rural area. Concrete is in my blood. I need the nightlife and the rhythm of the city."

Trooper, there's planty of concrete in the big cities down South. Heck, we even wear shoes to walk on it sometimes.

Shanna said...

Once black and white southerners figured out that melanin doesn't mean a whole lot, they all speak the same language, eat the same food, worship the same God, and work the same land.

This.

Also, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than NY.

bagoh20 said...

"I'm thinking about moving south.

Tell me more."


Think about what you like about summer and hate about winter. There you go. Who wouldn't prefer to visit winter, but live summer?

Trooper York said...

Yeah but you have to drive don't you? I don't know how to drive so I only walk or take the subway. I can't live anywhere when I can't jump in a train or get a gypsy cab or something.

Now if you could put rickshaws in Atlanta or something then we could talk.

Trooper York said...

Wait I couldn't live in Atlanta anyway. I would be afraid of running into Nene Leakes at the "Piggly Wiggly."

Scott M said...

but what struck me about race relations in the south is that blacks and whites interact far more than they do in northern cities.

I grew up in Chicago and now live in St Louis, but my three years in Augusta, GA bear this out.

Trooper York said...

Oh and that shoes thing?

I don't believe that for a second.

Jethro and Lil' Abner never wore shoes and that's the typical southern guy right?

bagoh20 said...

"Concrete is in my blood. I need the nightlife and the rhythm of the city."

"New York is where I'd rather stay.
I get allergic smelling hay.
I just adore a penthouse view.
Dah-ling I love you but give me Park Avenue."

Scott M said...

Wait I couldn't live in Atlanta anyway.

My various Atlanta experiences have led me to classify it as an island of the North in Dixie. Especially as it relates to this topic. Atlanta is very racially stratified.

Trooper York said...

I hear that Atlanta is really a small town and I would be afraid to run into Sheree, Kim or Nene.

Or especially Phaedra.

That bitch freaks me out.

MadisonMan said...

I've not lived in my home state for almost 30 years. Yet there is still a nostalgic pull whenever I'm back for a visit.

I'm not sure that this is what that article is talking about however. Is it first-generation transplants going back, or their kids?

Does this mean you can go home again?

Dark Eden said...

I don't think its that black people are moving south, its that ALL people are moving south away from left wing 'utopias.'

Original Mike said...

Gee, blacks don't like usurious tax rates anymore than whites. That rates a story in the paper of record?

Kirby Olson said...

A lot of whites from New York are also moving to the south. Two kids on my Little League baseball team are moving south. That's out of 11 players.

edutcher said...

The real problem the Gray Lady has is that the South is where all those bitter clingers are. And after the Left did so much to turn places like Gotham into a Socialist Workers Paradise where their betters like Nanny Bloomberg will tell them exactly how to live, what thanks is that?

To the Times, it's as inconceivable as Nixon being re-elected in '72 when everybody they knew was voting against him.

PS There all different kinds of South. Most of the commenters have never been to a place like Pulaski TN.

Scott M said...

Two kids on my Little League baseball team are moving south.

You play little league?

Kirby Olson said...

I live in the Catskills in NY State. It's not just the business climate, it's the climate. It's very cold here, and the winters are long and punishing. This last winter was just relentless.

Trooper York said...

BAAAZZZZINNNNGGGAAAAAA!!!!!

Kirby Olson said...

I coach.

LL said...

Two things:

1. Well, lots of other people are moving to the South, so why shouldn't blacks - they are Americans after all.

2. I'm reminded of the Randy Newman song, "Rednecks" - something about blacks being free to be put in a cage in NYC, Cleveland, South Side of Chicago, etc.

Henry said...

I think The Times is having a hard time fitting this into their standard boilerplate:

Moving South offers better life. Women and minorities hardest hit.

You know what is awesome about this article? The main character is leaving a New York civil service job to become an Atlanta entrepreneur.

When will the blue states get a clue?

Rube said...

A low Cost of living in the upstate of SC in the beautiful foothills of the Smokey Mountains. Retired 20 years. My wife and I bought new 12 years ago. At that time my 3 bedroom 2 bath home on a little over an acre cost me $114,000. I live in a small developement near Lake Keowee in Oconee County SC. I have city water, natural gas, and I live outside the city limits so I pay just County Property Tax. My annual tax after deducting the School Tax and 20% Homesteaders discount is $365.00, that's per year. The School Tax Exemption comes from the SC Lottery. We have the lowest gas prices in the country. Our Natural Gas and Electricity are better priced than most Northern States. Home Heating oil is rarely used in the South. I could go on longer but this gives you a good idea as to why we are here.

Trooper York said...

The blue states will never get a clue. Witness the witless in Wisconsin that we have been hearing about the last few months.

What is triving in the blue states is the underground economy. Which is just getting bigger and bigger.

LL said...

bagoh20 wins the thread

Trooper York said...

The underground economy is driven by the immigrant entrepreneurs.

How much tax do you think that Chinese restaurant or Arab guy in a coffee cart is paying? Or any Russians in Brighton Beach? Or Dominicans who own a bodega?

As my whimsy leads me.. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
As my whimsy leads me.. said...

The return of Kentuckians who went north for work is called, "the pull of the hills."

Bagoh, you put the weather issue excellently.

Toy

YoungHegelian said...

@edutcher,

I've been to Pulaski, TN. The billboard that accompanies my profile is found on I-65 near Pulaski.

Let me tell you, if I had to choose Pulaski over some of the towns we went through on the way to The Dells in Wis. I'd take Pulaski.

Carol_Herman said...

White people, too.

The liberal places are just shedding jobs.

And, down south? Gosh, I had a friend from Louisiana who explained it like this, to me:

When blacks came north they didn't have to go knock on a rear door, when they went to a white person's home, to ask for used clothing. Something they could "borrow."

Well, up north, the doors just slammed in their faces. And, they heard, NO!

But down south it was different. It was a known thing that a black could knock on your rear door ... and the white person who answered would be generous.

So, you get a choice. With the freedom of the north, you get no handouts. No chance to get a day job. Just NO.

And, down south people are friendlier. Less likely to slam doors in your face. But, of course, then the person doing the asking is standing at the back of the house.

Lessons don't come in "one size fits all."

But getting work? It pays, when you ask, to hear a "YES" every once in a while.

So poor people flee! They're also fleeing crappy neighborhoods.

Camaraderie has value. The south was always a much friendlier place to live than up north. Less riots. Better weather. More advantages than you can shake a stick at.

Oh, the "other" disadvantage. Up in NYC you get a lot of immigration coming in. Poor neighborhoods grow gangs like nobody's business. It ain't safe. When a new herd of animals moves in. (And you gets them "calls to worship" five times a day. Every day.)

Fred4Pres said...

The South has a bettter economy economy right now and race relations are actually better down there than in New York and Chicago.

Michael said...

Scott M: "My various Atlanta experiences have led me to classify it as an island of the North in Dixie. Especially as it relates to this topic. Atlanta is very racially stratified."

LOL. Northern transplants live in the Atlanta metro, not in Atlanta. Northern transplants, like all northerners, love the black race but are scared shitless of black people and thus live miles north of the city in their white enclaves. Black people live in the city of Atlanta along with hundreds of thousands of white southerners who aren't crazy about the black race but who have daily interaction and deep relationships with black human beings. It is a subtle but real thing. Thus it is that southerners can't stand being lectured to on matters of race by dipshit Wisconsinites. Or New Yorkers.

The Crack Emcee said...

Why would I - or any other black person - want to live someplace where they're constantly putting new restrictions on what you can eat? Food is one of the few items blacks can indulge in freely and these nutcases are constantly coming along with some new rule because what someone else does offends them - fuck them. As one friend of mine said about leaving the Bay Area, he just got fed up with the whole "Are you going to eat that?" and "You should go vegetarian" nonsense. When he wanted a steak, he wanted a steak, and he didn't want a fucking lecture to go along with it. (Sometimes, even, from the waiter!)

The coasts have simply gone insane.

MarkG said...

"...and race relations are actually better down there than in New York and Chicago."

I think that's been the case for decades.

Trooper York said...

"Northern transplants, like all northerners, love the black race but are scared shitless of black people and thus live miles north of the city in their white enclaves"

That's not quite true. Liberal Northerners are scared. Working class (much more culturally conservative) New Yorkers live and love and deal with people of every color every day of the week. Not just black and white and Hispanic but sub groups and splinters and what not. Every fucking sweater in the fuckin' Benneton ad.

You can stereotype all New Yorkers just the way some New Yorkers like to stereotype all southerners.

You got that Jethro?

Rialby said...

I have LONG said this to friends back in NY. The races seem to get along better in Texas and other parts of the south than they ever do in the Northeast where I grew up.

Rialby said...

And when I moved to Texas a decade ago, everyone couldn't wait to tell me how I was moving to the most backward place on earth.

T J Sawyer said...

It's News - in the NYT ...

60 minutes covered this story on October 27, 2002.

Almost everything is "news" to the MSM. Especially things that don't fit their preconceived notions.

Jeff with one 'f' said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rialby said...

"Atlanta is very racially stratified."

Really? I was just there meeting a Fortune 1000 client last week and the office was at least half black people, 40% white and the rest was probably Asian.

Christopher in MA said...

". . .and race relations are actually better down there than in New York or Chicago."

At the risk of exacerbating Trooper, I can tell you this - I was born and raised and have lived in New England all my life. There is no, I repeat, NO racist like a Northern racist.

Shouting Thomas said...

When he wanted a steak, he wanted a steak, and he didn't want a fucking lecture to go along with it. (Sometimes, even, from the waiter!)

Hell, some of us even want fried chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy and some collard greens cooked with real lard!

JimMuy said...

Never let anyone forget that the last riot over desegregation happened in Boston. Not the South.

Trooper York said...

"Don't you live in Brooklyn Heights? They roll up the sidewalk there at 9 o'clock every night!"

No I live in South Brooklyn which is now called "Carroll Gardens" or even more lamely "Bocaca."

Smith St has become the restaruant row of Brooklyn and there are tons of restaruants and bars open all hours. Some 24/7.

Court St where the shop is located is also trying to bring it up to speed and has several bars and restaurants that we like and that we hang out in even in the after hours time when they close.

I do agree that Brooklyn Heights is very sleepy and dull.

That's why the professor stayed there when she lived in Brooklyn a couple of years ago. It's more comfortable for the elderly. Just sayn'

Scott M said...

Really? I was just there meeting a Fortune 1000 client last week and the office was at least half black people, 40% white and the rest was probably Asian.

Fine. Atlanta's metro. To me, with a heavy broadcasting background, the two are one and the same.

Rialby said...

I remember when I used to work in Westchester County, NY, we had a consultant come into the office and I overheard a conversation between him and one of my co-workers. He was black, lived in Dallas and had formerly lived in NY. My co-worker said - "YOU like living in Dallas???" He said, "Hell yes. I have a 3000 sq ft house, there are no taxes and the weather is terrific year-round". The person just shook their head. They couldn't believe a black man would voluntarily move to the South.

'Cause Northeasterners aren't parochial or anything.

Rialby said...

parochial - doh - meant provincial

Michael said...

Trooper York: I concede that blue collar yanks have a bit more interaction with blacks. They are unafraid because they are usually shitfaced on the cheap shots and lousy beer in your working class bars. Courage over the counter.

Jeff with one 'f' said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

Christopher in MA.......
At the risk of exacerbating Trooper, I can tell you this - I was born and raised and have lived in New England all my life"

Oh I agree with you. All the people in New England are ignorant assholes and terrible people. What do expect of Red Sox Fans?

Michael said...

"I was just there meeting a Fortune 1000 client last week and the office was at least half black people, 40% white and the rest was probably Asian."

Most of the white people drive thirty miles north after work. At least if they are transplants

Trooper York said...

"Michael said...
Trooper York: I concede that blue collar yanks have a bit more interaction with blacks. They are unafraid because they are usually shitfaced on the cheap shots and lousy beer in your working class bars."

You are exactly right my friend. But on the other hand it's not like we get trashed on long neck bottles of beer and shots of Jack at the roadhouse and then go home to the trailer to have sex with our sister. Just sayn' dude.

Scott M said...

it's not like we get trashed on long neck bottles of beer and shots of Jack at the roadhouse and then go home to the trailer to have sex with our sister.

"WHO'S scruffy lookin'?"

Pogo said...

The list of cities murdered by Democrats grows and grows.

Rochester, NY; Pittsburgh; Dayton, OH; Buffalo, NY; Cleveland; Flint, MI; New Orleans, St. Louis, Albany, Oakland, Minneapolis, etc.

Detroit is the most egregious example; a former jewel now being bulldozed into prairie.

Obama is now trying this method on the nation as a whole.

"This used to be real estate
Now it's only fields and trees
Where, where is the town
Now, it's nothing but flowers
"

Bob_R said...

Then there's the fact that all New Yorkers are assholes...and I mean that in the fondest way possible.

Shouting Thomas said...

... it's not like we get trashed on long neck bottles of beer and shots of Jack at the roadhouse and then go home to the trailer to have sex with our sister. Just sayn' dude.

Yeah, but the band at the roadhouse is likely to be really dishing out the Southern Rock. Makes the sister look pretty hot.

Sweet Home Alabama!

Blue@9 said...

My roommate in college was from the South. Mind you we were in school in New England, and fully half our classmates were from the elite academies of NY and MA. They were, of course, interested to hear my roommate's stories about the South, especially about all the terrible racism and bigotry down there.

His take? Northerners talk a big game about not being racist, but they don't have black friends, don't work with them, live near them, and don't want their kids dating them. "Black friends" are like trophies brought out at cocktail parties as a display of progressiveness.

On the other hand, Southerners sound racist--they may say 'those blacks...' or crack jokes or even use the n-word, but they have actual black friends, work with blacks, live next to them, and in actual relations are very cordial.
They may say disparaging things about blacks in general, but virtually every black person they know is "Oh, but he's not like that, he's a good guy, a real Christian."

My grandmother-in-law is like that. She says bigoted things about "those blacks" from time to time, but she rents out a property to a black family, babysits for them, takes them leftovers, drives them to church, just loves them to death, especially the kids--talks about them like they're her own grandkids and gets so proud when they do well in school.

Maybe black people in the North are tired of the empty lip service.

Kelly from Georgia said...

NOOOOOOO! The South is a horrible place! Repeat after me: You do NOT want to move to the South. There is nothing to offer you here. Please stay up North.

You know the difference between a Yankee and a damn Yankee, don't you?

Kelly

Robert Cook said...

"That's why the professor stayed there when she lived in Brooklyn a couple of years ago. It's more comfortable for the elderly. Just sayn'"

If I'm not mistaken--and I may be--didn't Prof. Althouse stay in DUMBO? (Or perhaps I'm just remembering the photos she took in DUMBO and published to this site.)

Trooper York said...

Bob_R said...
Then there's the fact that all New Yorkers are assholes...and I mean that in the fondest way possible.

That's ok buddy. We are proud of being assholes. Because if you can be an asshole here you can be an asshole anywhere.....New York... New York!

Just like the song says.

Trooper York said...

She stayed in Brooklyn Heights right on Montague Street.

Or at least that's where Mortimer Brezney stood all night with the big boom box playing "In Your Eyes."

Paddy O said...

The Dixie Tiger.

Jess said...

"You know the difference between a Yankee and a damn Yankee, don't you?"

Just a guess here - is it about 500 miles?

MadisonMan said...

The thing you have to understand: Those who define who are racists live up north. Of course southerners are racist. No racists live around here.

Just like no sane people live in Iowa.

raf said...

Michael (sorta) said: ... northerners love the black race but are scared ... of black people... white southerners ... aren't crazy about the black race but [accept/ can appreciate] black human beings.

Substitute "liberals" or "leftists" for "northerners" and "conservatives" or "libertarians" for "white southerners" and you are close to a definitive pithy aphorism.

The difference is a focus on groups vs individuals.

Ralph L said...

Trooper, my brother's 88 y.o. m-i-l lived in Bay Ridge and never learned to drive until she was 57, when they moved to Westchester and her husband died. You're never too old.

Then again, summers in Ohio are roughly the same in armpittedness as those in Atlanta.
It starts earlier and lasts longer down south. But big cities hold the heat all night.

Trooper York said...

I don't want to learn how to drive. I am a walking DUI waiting to happen man.

Traveling is what they made gypsy cabs for dude. Just sayn'

Trooper York said...

Madison Man said.....
Just like no sane people live in Iowa."

But that's true. Reader-i-am lives in Iowa. Just sayn'

Scott M said...

But big cities hold the heat all night.

The hell you say. Why, if that were true, it might effect the comprehensive studies our stalwart climate researchers are working on. Surely they would have accounted for such data. Surely. Right?

windbag said...

There's about 1,000 things that warrant comments, but here's some random thoughts.

Grew up in upstate NY. Rednecks galore up there. Live in NC mountains now. Rednecks galore. You usually find what you're looking for, even if you have to manufacture it. Take racism, for example. Liberals find it everywhere.

My kid made the comment a couple of years ago, "Dad, I can't think of much of anything worse than having to live in a city." I consider my parental duties fulfilled.

I think the difference between city and country living is wider than black and white.

One of the curses/blessings of living in the country is that there is nothing to do. Less things to spend your money on spontaneously. That's a plus. Easier to find moonshine. That's a plus/minus.

Harrington said...

This young white couple moved from Wisconsin to rural, (i.e., not Atlanta) Georgia in 1975. Tremendous culture shock! After 23 years the job moved back to Wisconsin. Tremendous culture shock! Twelve years later we're still planning on returning to our "adopted home". I can't think of any reason to stay here.

Trooper York said...

Jess said...
"You know the difference between a Yankee and a damn Yankee, don't you?"

When we win the World Series?

Michael said...

I lived for a decade on the San Francisco peninsula which was virtually all white. There was one black in my neighborhood, Willie Mays. In the run up to the new year I would drive to East Palo Alto, the "ghetto" to buy the requisite food items for New Year's day consumption. I think I was the only white guy to shop there and I was duly recognized for the next nine years. I moved back to the south so my children would learn not to be racists or idiots.

Phil 3:14 said...

In 20 years will we see more Congressman like
Tim Scott or the "same 'ol, same 'ol" like Alcee Hastings?

Kelly from Georgia said...

First, Yankees come to the South and then turn around and go home. Damn Yankees come to the South and stay. :-)

Second, Blue@9, in the South we have a saying that kind of goes like this:

Northerners LOVE the blacks they don't know and HATE the blacks they do know.

Southerners HATE the blacks they don't know and LOVE the blacks they do know.

Make sense?

Kelly

Robert said...

My experience in Virginia was that people were much more honest and upfront about their feelings, good or bad. I met both whites and blacks who had no problem telling people of the other race, directly to their faces, that they had a racial issue. But they did it in a kind manner, almost apologetically. And then those same people would deal with each other, more or less professionally. Sounds odd, but it works.

In the North, where I was born (Milwaukee) and where I moved back (Minneapolis), you either get nasty upfront racism (Milwaukee) or Minnesota Nice (I love everyone and am nice to their faces, after all I'm a liberal, but I just won't hire, work with, live near, mix with, or date black people if at all possible, nor allow my kids in a school with them). The South has had to face its race issues head-on and deal with them openly. They are winning.

Trooper York said...

I do know that almost everyone who ever met him without exception thinks that Willie Mays is a dick.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Having the dubious pleasure and the age to have accomplished these things...living in the segregated south as a child, growing up in a very ethnically diverse environment(1950-60's)Bay Area, living in a dense urban environment, living in another country as a minority, back to living in the South, and now in rural north eastern Calif I can say:

There was much less segregation in the segregated south than there is today in the progressive created inner city urban environments and in the ghettoized urban areas where each culture and ethnicity exists in separate enclaves.

While people didn't closely or socially interact in the segregated south and the draconian segregation laws were cruel and evil: they still interacted on a daily basis, dwelt in the same towns, went to church, shopped in similar area. You had friends, acquaintances, people you worked with and saw on an almost daily basis as part of just living.

NOW....the separation of black, hispanic, asian and whites is almost complete. People avoid each other and stay away from each other's neighborhoods. Crime and suspicion rule.

We don't have segregation laws yet we are more segregated than ever.

We are a more impoverished culture for the separation. It is a dangerous development.

Having said all that, I'm sure that one of the resident leftards will accuse me of supporting Jim Crow laws and being a racist. Let me get out in front of that....Bite ME.

Trooper York said...

DBQ said....
Let me get out in front of that....Bite ME.


No that's the Vampires who live in that town on HBO.

From Inwood said...

TY

How much tax do you think that Chinese restaurant or Arab guy in a coffee cart is paying? Or any Russians in Brighton Beach? Or Dominicans who own a bodega?

Er, How much tax do you think that Metro NYC Limo Libs are paying? As little as possible.

Remember: Taxes are for the little people!


NYC UWS Limo Lib conversationalist:

Monday: I just bought a bunch of clothes from LLBean & didn't have to pay NYC sales tax. What? Use Tax? Never heard of it. What I took a tax course in lawschool? So What. Don't be a schmuck!

Tuesday: Inwood, you're voting for a Republican as POTUS? He's gonna give tax breaks to the rich & take away benefits from the poor. Don't be a schmuck!

windbag said...

@DBQ

We don't have segregation laws yet we are more segregated than ever.

We have friends who have adopted several children, three are black. One of their biological kids joined the military. When she had a confrontation with a peer, she was accused of being racist. Utter nonsense.

It only takes one to segregate a society.

traditionalguy said...

The South is a good place for African Americans that are well educated and have skills. So thank you New York for sending all that you can down here. The problem in the South was always the failure to educate and train African Americans. The other side of the lack of education coin was legal segregation. They have both disappeared in the South today. Thank you Dr King.

E.M. Davis said...

When we win the World Series?

What's this 'we' shit?

Then again, you probably have as much range as Jeter.

CatherineM said...

I used to live in the south after being raised in NYC and Chicago suburbs, I agree with the others that the South was far more integrated than NYC was when I moved here around 1990. I was really shocked by the hostility not only between blacks and whites, but blacks and Asians, and so on.

Late 1990s in the shoe dept at an Alabama Dillards, I had a conversation with a girl who had just moved from NYC to Alabama for the same reasons - culture and finacial. She grew up in NYC, but had family in Alabama and found AL was less racial and had more opportunities than NYC. It was one conversation, but she had an idea of what Alabama would be like and found out the opposite was true.

News to the NYT, but not to me.

MadisonMan said...

When we win the World Series?

Have I mentioned lately that the GREEN BAY PACKERS are World Champions!??

GO PACK!

Ralph L said...

A lot of blacks worked in white homes and farms in the South until the last few decades, so there was both interaction, trust, paternalism, and social inequality (in addition to political/legal inequality). Younger blacks stay away from domestic and farm/landscaping jobs now, and there are fewer of them.

The Mexicans are more segregated here than the blacks, and they've taken their manual labor jobs.

LordSomber said...

I've been to almost all 50 states and the places with the worst racial vibes were always in the northeast.

Peter said...

"New York is also one of the highest tax states."

Those who have never lived in New York City are often surprised to learn that the City has its own personal income tax, which residents must pay in addition to the state income tax.

New York's taxes are also surprisingly un-progressive. That is, NY state income tax tops out at 8%, but if you earn over $20,000. (yes, that's TWENTY) you're already in New York State's 7% (seven) bracket.

NYC income tax tops out at 3.648% (the wierd number is due to a "temporary" 14% surcharge). BUT, the minimum City income tax (starts at the first dollar you earn) is 2.907%.

Of course, it's not just personal taxes, but business-killing taxes. And, if you've not been in NYC, you may be surprised to find the price of everyday goods (grocery store items, for example) run about 150% of what you'd pay elsewhere.

And that's even before you consider the cost of buying or renting a residence.

Of course, the NYT article focuses on the "soft" stuff- perceptions of local culture and such. But you can't quite imagine how expensive it is to live in NYC until you've tried it.

And so, unless you just have to live there for some reason, it's not hard to see how, say, Atlanta might not seem so bad.

Shanna said...

Northerners LOVE the blacks they don't know and HATE the blacks they do know.

Southerners HATE the blacks they don't know and LOVE the blacks they do know.


Bingo, although the hate is greatly diminished in the south at this point, at least in the younger generation. Even among the most racist older generation, they still will tell you about how much they loved Lillian who made the pies.

Now cracking jokes about each other definately happens. In high school two of my classmates were debate partners, black girl, white guy. They cracked racial jokes about each other all the time, and then one day the guy came in and said his partner wasn’t there because she got sick on some bad chitlins. Everybody thought it was a joke. It wasn’t.

Methadras said...

No, they are just tired of paying for New York bullshit and getting nothing in return. The lower manhatten tre chic should find this welcoming news. At least in Chelsea we will know how they will celebrate.

Freeman Hunt said...

Ha ha ha.

Hey NYT, ever been to the South? Happen to notice that the vast majority of black people live here? Happen to notice the huge black middle class here? Happen to notice that it's been that way for... well, all of recent history?

Shanna said...

Hey NYT, ever been to the South?

Nope. Not a one of them. I don't think they actually have any idea what the racial makeup of the south is. People I went to college with from Mass seemed to think I had never seen a black person before and I was like, man, I'm from Little Rock. What the heck are you talking about?

Freeman Hunt said...

People especially like to practice cheap tolerance, the type where you tolerate people who live a thousand miles away.

ken in sc said...

Others have made similar comments but I want to add mine. One of my favorite professors at the University of Alabama was Lena Pruitt, a black woman born in Alabama, but who had lived much of her life in Chicago. She came back to Alabama, she said, because southerners were easier to get along with. Northerners, she said, would claim to love the negro race, but could not stand any of us. Southerners, she said, might claim to despise the negro race, but love all the ones they knew. That made all the difference to her. BTW, in the Philippines, I had to go to a soul-food restaurant to get real food. Southerners both black and white have a lot more in common than northerners do. Our culture, which runs from the Potomac to the Rio Grande binds us together.

Freeman Hunt said...

Back when I worked in marketing, I had meetings everyday with the sales department. They dealt with thousands of customers and prospects nationwide, and the few virulently racist ones they encountered (racist enough to start talking about race to a salesperson over the phone) were almost always from the Northeast.

People love to bring up the racism surrounding the integration of Central High in Little Rock. Boston, however, is usually overlooked.

Beth said...

"People love to bring up the racism surrounding the integration of Central High in Little Rock."

Freeman, my parents lived in Jacksonville, near Little Rock, at that time, and my mom shared with me later that it was watching the coverage on television that made her confront her own racism. People don't talk as much about that, because I doubt she was the only white Southerner going through what she, as a Christian, called experiencing conviction.

I have no idea if Bostonians had the same context for their experiences.

Chuck66 said...

I always find it humerous when northern liberals attack southern states. I've spent a small amount of time in Mississippi and Alabama. They have their good and bad points, just like any state, but overall fine places. Biggest issues is crime which, unfortunatly, is concentrated in Black-majority towns and cities.

Chuck66 said...

TosaGuy, I noticed that too. In Mississippi and Alabama, the Blacks don't think of themselves as a seperate race that needs to be treated differently (for the most part) and the whites don't either. Just ordinary folks. Maybe it is different in the largest cities, but the smaller cities and towns that I have been in don't see the anamosity or pandering that you get in many northern cities.

I like to think of myself as colorblind, but have to admint, in Wisconsin or Minnesota, if I see a black sherriff or an almost all black EMT staff, I do kind of notice (as it is a bit unusual). In the south, you don't think twice about it.

DADvocate said...

Look at where most race riots have been in the past 45 years. And, it ain't the South, more like NY, LA and such.

My sister's theory is that white Southerners have lived with blacks for decades. Once they got past the integration stuff, it was more natural and easy for them to form healthy daily relationships with blacks.

mariner said...

Trooper York,

I do know that almost everyone who ever met him without exception thinks that Willie Mays is a dick.

Let's see: New York Giants, San Francisco Giants, New York Mets.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't like him. ;)

Franklin said...

Just wanted to add a couple more things to the list of Why The South Is Better.

Better beaches.
Better soil.

I'll also add that if we are indeed going into another period of global cooling that a couple degrees C would make the South that much more agreeable (relative to the North, anyway).

Trooper York said...

It has nothing to do with his teams. He is just an angry bitter guy. Although he seems to have mellowed in recent years.

I remember when authographs were big in the 1980's and they had all these shows. Mickey was always drunk. Willie was always a dick. And Duke Snider was always a gentleman.

Trooper York said...

And you know who else was cool?

Pete Rose.

As long as he could get his bet in.

MadisonMan said...

Better soil.

What? How many southern states have a State Dirt like Wisconsin?

raf said...

Better soil

My extensive close-up experience with red clay in GA and MO back in the 60s leads me to differ. It was quite difficult to keep it pushed down.

Tibore said...

"... African-Americans feel this is no longer as easy to achieve and that the South is more benevolent than New York.”

It's called fallout:

Freedom in the 50 States: An Index of Personal and Economic Freedom

"New York is by far the least free state in the Union.... New York has by far the highest taxes in the country. Property, selective sales, individual income, and corporate-income taxes are particularly high. Spending on public welfare, hospitals, electric power, transit, employee retirement, and “other and unallocable” expenses are well above national norms...

... On personal freedoms, gun laws are extremely restrictive, but marijuana laws are better than average, while tobacco laws are extremely strict, and cigarette taxes are the highest in the country. Motorists are highly regulated, and homeschool regulations are excessive, but nondrug victimless-crimes arrests are low. New York has the strictest health-insurance community-rating regulations in the country, which have wiped out the individual market. Mandated coverages are worse than average but were actually cut back substantially in 2007–2008. Eminent domain abuse is rampant and unchecked. Perversely (in our view), the state has stricter contribution limits for grassroots PACs than for corporate and union PACs."


Maybe it's time to move the Statue of Liberty; it's not like the city that harbors it represents the ideals stated inside the monument any longer.

Tibore said...

"TWM said...
Silly black folk, don't they know the South is full of racist wannabe slave owners? "


How long before someone says that they're acting "against their own self interest" in moving away from such a relatively nanny-ish "state" (as in situation)?

garage mahal said...

Of the 44,474 who left New York State in 2009, more than half, or 22,508, went to the South....

HALF moved to the south. Half didn't. Incredible!

Scott M said...

Half didn't. Incredible!

It is if, for example, the other half was split up, for example, 10% Pacific Northwest, 10% New England, 10% Midwest, 10% Southwest, 10% California. That 50% isn't necessarily meaningless by itself, but without the other slices identified, the weight of that single 50% wedge doesn't convey what it could.

Trooper York said...

I tell you where the New Yorkers are not moving.

Wisconsin.

Last I heard they are importing their rif-raff from Cincinatti.

Trooper York said...

But I bet if Garage or Rochy will lend him their drum then Robert Cook might move in and take up residence in the Capital.

It's a natural fit.

mariner said...

Last I heard they are importing their rif-raff from Cincinnati.

They briefly exported some of their riff-raff to Illinois.

Too bad it wasn't permanent.

Kirby Olson said...

A pack of cigs costs 12 bucks (on average) in Manhattan, and 3.50 in Tennessee. That probably burns up a lotta smokers. I don't smoke, but if I did, I would fume.

HT said...

It's the whole attitude of the people - everything's gonna be ok.

windbag said...

@Kirby

A pack of cigs costs 12 bucks (on average) in Manhattan, and 3.50 in Tennessee. That probably burns up a lotta smokers. I don't smoke, but if I did, I would fume.

Move to North Carolina, where tobacco is considered a vegetable.

Sixty Grit said...

Windbag - the end of the tobacco allotment has pretty much killed tobacco growing in NC. Where it was once common it is now scarce. Cigarette manufacturing is gone, too.

But cigarettes are very expensive here, due to state and federal taxes. Do I care? Not even a little bit - I don't smoke and I am not a tobacco grower. The whole enterprise can go to hell, as far as I am concerned.

David said...

Cachet? It's about money. And going home.

During the first two weeks after I moved to South Carolina, I was driving around St. Helena Island, just to explore. At the side of the road was a sign: NEW YORK TRANSIT WORKERS REUNION. There were about 150 black people in a grove of oak trees, having a barbeque.

WTF? Naturally, I had to stop.

Long story short, it was a group of people who had left the island in the 1950's, 60's and 70's and moved to New York. The first pilgrims got jobs with the transit authority, and greased the skids for the followers. They made good money, got good pensions, and after retirement moved back, where living is a lot cheaper, and they had family and roots.

They gave me a beer, some excellent chicken and slaw and told me their stories.

Cachet? What bullshit.

Steve Koch said...

It is warmer in the South, which is nice for retirees. Winters are a lot less threatening WRT health. Summers (while hot as hell) are easier to bear when you are retired because you don't move around as fast, can arrange to be outside during the less hot parts of the day, and are smart enough to stay in the shade as much as possible.

For younger people, houses are a lot cheaper and there are a lot more jobs. During this recession, Texas has created 3 out of every 8 new jobs created across the whole nation.

If you settle in Texas, I'd recommend central Texas (eg: Austin, New Braunfels, San Marcos, San Antonio).

Stephanie said...

As a native Southerner and Native Atlantan (the Native Atlantan is an endangered species)

Troop: It is possible to live in Atlanta and get by with no car. Look to the Atlanta Station Area or Buckhead. Both are 'planned communities' on the subway line so they have shopping (Nordstrom's, Macy's, Publix, IKEA), restaurants and all within walking distance plus you can jump on the subway (MARTA) and get downtown proper in 10 minutes or the suburbs in 20.

As for the rest of y'all, I live in the burbs in a what would be considered a middle/upper middle class area with excellent schools and the make up is about 40 white, 30 black, 10 asian and 20 latino. My daughter's best friends in school are black, asian and latino. She was over at her best friend's house yesterday and she's black.

The biggest segregation we have is the asians and it is cultural. Their kids don't do football games or any activities that are 'ripe' for young kids to get into boyfriend/girlfriend situations and rarely have kids over as grandma lives with them and she doesn't approve and doesn't speak English. They are chaperoned if they go out at all.

The country club that I belong to is a middle class one and has about an equal mix of races as the area. Interestingly, most of the new members this year are black. Most are also republican voting minorities.

Race just isn't an issue down here unless it is in the 'lower classes.' In that class, pretty much ALL races are into grievance politics and looking out for what is owed to them and believe that every ill that befalls them is due to someone else. They tend to play the 'race' card, the 'reverse race' card and the 'evil rich' card. And they are all looking to someone else to make sure they get 'their fair share.' You know... democrat voters.

Ralph L said...

Sixty, there's an outlet on I-40 near me called JR that caters to out of state cigar and cigarette buyers. They have a 300 carton limit and a bunch of housewares stuff to keep wives occupied. Guess our taxes are still a lot lower than the NE's.

Shaky Barnes said...

Well hate to rain on the parade but black people always vote Democrat don't they? Like, a law of physics or something.

GlobSnark said...

Black people didn't leave the South to "escape prejudice," but to escape violence. When Blacks went North, it never occurred to anyone that the North was without prejudice just without violence. Now, the violence has moved North. For people with children, it doesn't matter who is committing the violence or why. It only matters whether you can afford to live in a safe neighborhood or have to move to someplace where the safe neighborhoods are affordable. That is what the South now offers to people of all races: someplace where people of moderate income with children can feel safe.

Andy Freeman said...

The move to the northeast occurred when Repubs had some political power (which got civil rights legislation through a Dem dominated congress that would have rejected it) in the northeast and none in the south, where the Dems instituted and supported Jim Crow (with help from northeast progressives, such as Wilson).

The move back to the south is occurring when Repubs have no political power in the northeast and considerable political power in the South, not unlike what they had during reconstruction, before the Dems took over and instituted JIm Crow.

Conor said...

Down here in the South, we think that Yankees are like hemorrhoids.

They are fine if they come down and go back up, but if they come down and stay, they are a real pain in the ass.

Shootist said...

Ya'll know the difference between a Yankee and and dam' Yankee, don't 'cha?

A yankee comes to visit.

Michael K said...

I thought seriously about moving to Mississippi a few years ago. I've never lived in the south but I think I would like it. The area I was interested in was around Mobile and it was hit hard by the hurricane in 2005. I need to go back and look again. Like Tucson, there are lots of military retirees.

CableGuy said...

"but what struck me about race relations in the south is that blacks and whites interact far more than they do in northern cities."

I lived in Chicagi and Wisconsin fr the first part of my life, and have lived in Texas the whole second half, and the difference in startling-- blakcs, whites and hispanics interact on a very equal, very integrated level. I never really realized how white Wisconsin was, or how segregated Chicago was until I moved to Texas.

Revenant said...

Black people didn't leave the South to "escape prejudice," but to escape violence.

It was both.

The lack of economic opportunity was a much bigger problem than the violence.

Revenant said...

People love to bring up the racism surrounding the integration of Central High in Little Rock. Boston, however, is usually overlooked.

Apples and oranges, really. The Boston riots were over busing, not integration. If a judge order my kids to be bused into a slum in the name of "integration" I would riot, too.

Jum said...

Before we get all excited about folks moving to Atlanta and "the South", let's remember that Atlanta has far more in common with NYC than the South, whether with regard to culture, attitude or vibe.

Anyone moving from the North to Atlanta has merely changed neighborhoods, not regions of the country.

Cajun Peg said...

Many of these comments remind me of something Gov.George Wallace of Alabama said long ago, about the South hating the Negro as a race, but loved them as an individual, while the North loved them as a race, but hated them as an individual. He also said if the Watts riots had happened in Selma they would still be showing it on the news.

Dennis said...

PLEASE, lets not tout the South too much. We live very well here and the last thing we need is a bunch of Northern "parasites" coming here bring and then trying to institute the same policies they ran away from up North.

SDN said...

Rialby, when she married me and moved to Montgomery, AL, my New York born Jewish wife was told by several of her friends and relatives that the Klan would be waiting for her at the airport.

They were not joking.

As she put it, there is no one so smug and parochial as a New York City liberal.

Of course, when we moved to TX, she sent them all a picture of herself shooting an Evile Black Scary Rifle. You probably heard the heads exploding throughout the city. 8-)

Michael said...

Jum: "let's remember that Atlanta has far more in common with NYC than the South, whether with regard to culture, attitude or vibe."

The Atlanta magazine might make you think so but if you lived here and have lived in other cities in the South and worked frequently in NY you would know that your idea is commonly held and preposterous.

Bedbug said...

I'd like to recommend a really good book, "The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration," by Isabel Wilkerson.

Well researched and well-written, she follows the lives of three black families who moved from the Jim Crow South to NYC, Chicago, and LA.

Gives a lot of historical information on the subject, and casts a bright light on the reasons there is now a "reverse migration." Well worth reading.

Freeman Hunt said...

The Boston riots were over busing, not integration. If a judge order my kids to be bused into a slum in the name of "integration" I would riot, too.

You would throw rocks to break the windows of a bus full of elementary school children? You would yell racial epithets at them? You would bruise them?

I doubt it.

I R A Darth Aggie said...

If you really want to get under a northerner's skin, particularly one from New England, you just need to tell them this:

MIT is known as the Georgia Tech of the North

Trooper York said...

"You would throw rocks to break the windows of a bus full of elementary school children? You would yell racial epithets at them? You would bruise them?"

Well Rev would only do that it was Sarah Palin's bus. Just sayn'

Suburbanbanshee said...

Thing is, plenty of Southerners and mountain people also moved north to find work, at the same time as the "Great Migration". So did a lot of European immigrants move to the Northern US. Why? Because there were tons of new factories and tons of new jobs!

Of course, it obviously would have more effect on the smaller populations of blacks and mountain people, than on the vast majority of Southerners or Europeans. But still, it's an odd way to tell the story. Like pretending that one revolution in 1848 had no connection to any other revolution, or that the great potato blight famine only happened in Ireland, instead of just being at its worst in Ireland; or that the potato famines didn't encourage the revolutions.

Buckley said...

Have lived in the South for much of my life. Spent some time in the Air Force, away in college in Oklahoma, and traveled to a couple of northern towns. it's not perfect, but we have a system down here worked out most everyone's liking. most blacks are friendly, smile and are good citizens. Same as whites here. The only problems we have is when northerners come down and act...'rude'. Winks

kmg said...

Never mind that blacks, who vote 95% Democrat, voted in the politicians that made the mess.

Do you think they will stop voting Democrat when they move South?

A lot of the comments here miss this elephant in the room. A lot of 'blue' places are blue largely due to the black vote.

kmg said...

Blacks moving South will turn Southern States blue..

What with 90% of blacks voting Democrat and all....

Liston Matthews said...

Southern states, unlike big city northern states, (NY, IL) provide for lawful personal defense outside the home. That is to say, one can go forth armed in the South. Don't try that in NYC.

http://goodhillpress.blogspot.com/

Sweetbriar said...

"Do you think they will stop voting Democrat when they move South?"

The blacks moving south are working/middle class. They fully intend to keep working and advance their children up the social ladder, rather than trying to get on the first tier via entitlements. Of the blacks I work with, none speak of Obama and the Democrats, and no whites are as tactless to bring it up. Everyone knows that Obama brought a tremendous amount of pride to the black community, as do all the middle/upper class educated professional blacks in the news now, versus the gangsta rap/political charity cases that used to dominate the news.

Pride is wonderful, but every person with a job and bills to pay feels the economy tanking, to the point where one has to say, "Lordy!" every time you go to the store. I'm glad we had a black president, I just wish it hadn't been Obama. I think the black community feels that way, too.

Everyone will vote their pocketbooks. Black is no longer a monolith.

....and you yankees stay up there!.. bunch of obnoxious heathens......

kmg said...

Sweetbriar,

You dodged the question.

Blacks vote Democrat by 90-95%, period.

Anyone who thinks that Obama will get less than 90% of the black vote, is clueless.

Red staters are quick to worry that white Californians or NYers will move their states towards the blue threshold, but even white Californians and NYers do not lean Democratic to the lopsided extreme that blacks do.

Blacks moving somewhere turns that place blue, period.

Sweetbriar said...

kmg, thanks for clarifying that blacks never change, they're all alike, they never learn, they can't be trusted, they aren't very smart, they are all bigots and robots who take their orders from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

I had thought they were just as smart as anyone else until you made that plain.

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