April 25, 2011

The Guantanamo suicides: acts of asymmetric warfare or expressions of despair?

The NYT examines the divergent characterizations.

51 comments:

PaulV said...

More inportant, NYTimes onionized on Tiger Beat.

PaulV said...

LINK
http://www.mediaite.com/print/the-onion-fools-the-new-york-times-with-fake-obama-tiger-beat-cover/

PaulV said...

I would go with guilt and despair for killing innocent people which is condemned in Koran, the book of the religion of peace.

Original Mike said...

The only good terrorist, ...

Roger J. said...

I put forward my solution to the afghan problem months ago, but got my comment deleted--so I wont repeat it here.

As general sherman said war is hell--the issue is to make it more hell for your enemy than you.

Jason said...

No reason it can't be both.

Ask an Irishman about Bobby Sands.

traditionalguy said...

Mohammed's religion of stealing, murdering and destroying throws away its employees as easily as they do infidels. Who else do we see easily throwing away his friends as his enemies? Hmmm.

Julius said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Drill SGT said...

Roger J. said...
As general sherman said war is hell--the issue is to make it more hell for your enemy than you.


That Cavalry guy G.S. Patton said it better:

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.

Issue them all 6 foot ropes.

Julius said...

Suicide is a noble way to die. It is often a logical choice too, when it is readily apparent that there is nothing but suffering and pain ahead of you in your life.

It is very strange that modern society seems to accept the idea that something must be "wrong" with people who commit suicide. It's either explained in ridiculous Kafka-equse terms as "asymmetrical warfare", or as a result of mental health problems. Perhaps it is just the best, most logical choice?

In the same manner, it would be perfectly logical for someone like Bradley Manning to want to kill himself when he is forced by our Regime to go without clothes and stand naked at attention every morning to endure the taunts of his captors.

That suicide is a noble act does not mean that only noble people commit suicide. You can be a horrible person and still perform a final noble-- and, in a way, redemptive-- act.

Fen said...

Its the New York Times. The question is disqaulfied as long as Pravda hosts it.

Ut said...

"... acts of asymmetric warfare or expressions of despair?"

TO me they represent a good, but slow start.

We clearly at not giving them enough rope.

rhhardin said...

Suicide is a way out not necessarily from despair, for a hostile prisoner.

It's the ultimate freedom in the face of the oppressor.

Not to show him, but just to do it.

Leave it to the NYT to find despair.

Think of it as no longer reading the NYT.

Maguro said...

Acts of asymmetric warfare, but not very successful ones.

vbspurs said...

And Haley Barbour announces he'll run.

wv: ledpete ...better than lead louie.

Coketown said...

I can think of a dozen explanations off the top of my head that are neither asymmetric warfare or expressions of despair. David Carradine anyone?

Phil 3:14 said...

Two questions after reading the article:

1) What's the suicide rate among prisoners in US high security prisons? (I want to know if this is a phenomenon whenever you incarcerate for a long time.)
2) What does it mean to raise the spectre of "suicide" in a population that ostensibly were likely to commit suicide (by that I mean suicide terrorist attack)?

Henry said...

In both cases our soldiers are against it. Win win for the prisoners.

Roger J. said...

Miss Victoria (and regards to your mum)--Haley Barbour is a very competent governor--I had the opportunity to review how he handled mississipi's response to Katrina and he was a class act.

Regretably he has already been slimed by the MSM and I honestly dont believe the elecorate will go for him, primarily because I dont see our electorate electing anyone with a southern drawl.

He's good and a competent governor. In fact an intersting factoid is that mmiddle class blacks in Memphis are moving to Mississipi to buy homes in De Soto County. But, of course, because of his southern roots he has to be a racist. That will be the meme.

Nothing is further from the truth but he doesnt fit the narrative.

edutcher said...

And we are supposed to be sad, or otherwise troubled about this, why?

These people, among other things, are to one degree or another, mentally unbalanced. It shouldn't be a surprise this would be an option.

Original Mike said...

The only good terrorist, ...

Philip Henry Sheridan would surely concur, sir.

Julius said...

Suicide is a noble way to die.

The Hell it is. Very often it's the coward's way out, one of the reasons it's a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

Not sure how Sharia sees it, but I suspect Islam might view it the same way.

EDH said...

I view it as classic "win-win" situation.

NYT will at least entertain that idea, now that Obama is president.

george said...

I agree with Julius. Manning should commit suicide. It is the only way for him to redeem himself. Same goes for the Gitmo detainees. In fact maybe we could arrange for Manning to be transferred to Gitmo and let the problem sort itself out.

Leland said...

Gee, a few people, who have little to no regard for human life, take their own lives. I'm not sure why I need to analyze why they took their own life. More interested in what I can do to change their value of human life in general.

Carol_Herman said...

Did you know America pays $2,000 a year in rent to Cuba, for Guantanimo?

Quite a hotel we have there, housing terrorists.

You want to call them "combatants?" They don't wear uniforms. (Unless you want to count them by their turbans.)

And, the real failure of Guantanimo is that we don't threaten to send them into cuba ... where Castro's prisons would have given them da' business.

Okay. We'd have to increase the amount of rent each year.

Original Mike said...

"Did you know America pays $2,000 a year in rent to Cuba, for Guantanimo?"

Supposedly, Castro does not cash the checks.

Quayle said...

Our so-called leaders are committing national financial suicide and the New York Times says nothing.

AST said...

I guess the Tiger Beat story fell into the "too good to fact check" category."

As for whether suicide at Gitmo is part of their the terrorists' war plan or a cri de coeur doesn't concern me. These people renounced their human rights when they signed up with Al Qaeda. They kill indiscriminately, including other Muslims. The Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the entire world.

E.M. Davis said...

Next question: Do I care?

Robert Cook said...

"I would go with guilt and despair for killing innocent people which is condemned in Koran, the book of the religion of peace."

How do you know the prisoners who killed themselves ever killed anyone or committed acts of violence of any kind?

Robert Cook said...

For our military officials to characterize prisoner suicides as "acts of asymmetric warfare" is equivalent to a bully who is pounding a victim to say, "Why do you keep hitting my fist with your face?"

In other words, absurd on its face, and a shameful denial of who is actually the victim and who the victimizer. Of course, the military is notoriously dishonest in its public statements on just about any matter, so no one with a brain would take this particularly disgraceful lie seriously.

Henry said...

@Robert Cook: What public statement?

Robert Cook said...

"These people renounced their human rights when they signed up with Al Qaeda."

How do you know they're members of Al Qaeda?

"They kill indiscriminately, including other Muslims."

How do you know they've killed anyone?

"The Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the entire world."

It limits what American authorities may do to any person incarcerated by them. We have yet to charge or try these prisoners, and aside from unproven assertions by the government, we have no knowledge whether they ever committed acts of war--however liberally defined--against the United States, so to call them "illegal combatants" or even to dignify them as "prisoners of war" is to assert that which has not been demonstrated as true.

Whatever the truth may be, it is certainly different for each prisoner, and remains to be proved.

Roger J. said...

I do agree with Mr Cook that the prisoners should get their day in a court--now from what I can tell it will be a military tribunal, which in my estimation, will suffice for a day in court.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

GITMO Suicides....

Terrorists doing the job that Americans won't do.

I likey.

Original Mike said...

"I do agree with Mr Cook that the prisoners should get their day in a court--"

I also agree, but if it weren't for the likes of Mr. Cook, they would have had that day a long time ago.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Robert Cook

"How do you know the prisoners who killed themselves ever killed anyone or committed acts of violence of any kind?"

How do you know they didn't?

"For our military officials to characterize prisoner suicides as "acts of asymmetric warfare" is equivalent..."

Further proof that PC horseshit has done its damage in the State Dept. and the Pentagon.

"Whatever the truth may be, it is certainly different for each prisoner, and remains to be proved."

Spoken like a true apologist for terrorist scum. Are you a lawyer or just wish you could be so you could defend what you seem to be sure are just misunderstood 'political prisoners'?

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Julius

"Suicide is a noble way to die."

Please, show us the way, oh great one. Set the example for nobility, why don't you?

You are an idiot.

George said...

Hollowed out Koran...check. 10' of 1/2" line...check. USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Box...check.

Cedarford said...

Carole Herman - "You want to call them "combatants?" They don't wear uniforms. (Unless you want to count them by their turbans.)"

A silly never in the military female attempt at distinguishing combatants from non-combatants.

My mail truck driver wears a uniform. She is not a combatant.

However, Jihadis throughout their history do not wear uniforms. Nor did most native american warriors, mst Confederate soldiers. Nor partisans or Tamil Tiger enemy combatants. There is no "uniform" for the Hezbollah soldiers that match up well man for man against the Israelis.

No enemy combatants sent in on deep penetration missions as scouts, spies, saboteurs, or as terrorist fear sowing teams wears a uniform.

Quaestor said...

Julius wrote: Suicide is a noble way to die.

Sometimes. Care to comment on this noble and redemptive suicide?

Bob Ellison said...

Cedarford, your little comment directed at Carol seems uninformed about uniforms. This is an issue much in dispute over the last seventy years.

Anyway, the NYT article seems pretty good to me. Just the news this time. We should be debating these things.

vbspurs said...

A silly never in the military female attempt at distinguishing combatants from non-combatants.

Why is it that you have to make an informed point, Cedarford, by showing one of the very many biases that you have?

Robert Cook said...

"Spoken like a true apologist for terrorist scum. Are you a lawyer or just wish you could be so you could defend what you seem to be sure are just misunderstood 'political prisoners'?"

I'm someone who believes in that America that truly could be exceptional, a country that truly gives due process of law to the accused, and doesn't simply take the word of the authorities that bad guys are bad guys simply they're accused, and who doesn't believe that accused bad guys who haven't been charged, haven't been tried, haven't been proved to be guilty of anything should be held in prison without hope of release, or tortured to extract confessions.

All those who bray about "American exceptionalism" are, to the extent they applaud the maltreatment we have meted out and continue to mete out to these prisoners are traitors to and haters of America. I don't know if they're hypocrites or simply deluded or ignorant, but it doesn't really matter, as the end result is still evil done by and in the name of "America."

Robert Cook said...

"'How do you know the prisoners who killed themselves ever killed anyone or committed acts of violence of any kind?'

"How do you know they didn't?"


I don't.

Revenant said...

How do you know the prisoners who killed themselves ever killed anyone or committed acts of violence of any kind

It's a guess. We're guessing why they killed themselves.

Given that some of the people we *have* released went right back to the fight, I'm unwilling to take the risk of releasing any of the people we were less sure of.

veni vidi vici said...

"The Guantanamo suicides"

Don't you mean, "The 72 Virgin suicides"?

Gary Rosen said...

Fudd loves the way Hezbollah fights, hiding in the women and children. He's chowing down on that Hezzie dick, hoping to get it up the ass some day. Or at least that's what he fantasizes about jacking off in his flophouse room.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Robert Cook

"I'm someone who believes in that America that truly could be exceptional,..."

Please cite for us your model country, the model that we really should strive for.

Again, self-flagellation did not get the US to the forefront of many technological advances that benefit the entire world.

If your larger point is illegal detention, then call it that, not a blanket criticism of those that choose to have a more positive attitude towards their country.

Frankly I couldn't care less if all the Gitmo detainees were let go today, for I believe they will find their way into oblivion all on their own. Where do you live, Robert? Your neighborhood could be a really good release point for these misunderstood world citizens. You okay with that???

The dim view you choose to take in many of your posts places you pretty firmly with the elitists and guilty rich that seek to ruin what IS good about this country.

Robert Cook said...

"Given that some of the people we *have* released went right back to the fight, I'm unwilling to take the risk of releasing any of the people we were less sure of."

Who? How many? 200? 100? 5O? 5?

All we have are assertions by the government, who have already shown themselves as eager liars in support of their agenda. How do we know that, of those released prisoners who may actually have turned to violence upon their release, they had not previously been peaceful, and were radicalised by their treatment? If YOU were kidnapped and held and abused for years in prison by a foreign power, wouldn't you find it hard NOT to want to strike back at them if you had a chance and were released to freedom?

Revenant said...

"Given that some of the people we *have* released went right back to the fight, I'm unwilling to take the risk of releasing any of the people we were less sure of."

Who? How many? 200? 100? 5O? 5?

According to the Obama administration, 81 out of 600, with an additional 69 suspected. The New York Times has independently confirmed 42 of them so far. The list includes suicide bomber Abdallah Saleh Ali al-Ajmi and Yemeni al Qaeda leader Sa'eed al-Shihri.

All we have are assertions by the government

That's incorrect.

How do we know that, of those released prisoners who may actually have turned to violence upon their release, they had not previously been peaceful, and were radicalised by their treatment?

That's not a rational explanation. The issue is also moot; regardless of the cause of their radicalism, releasing radicals is a dumb idea.

I realize it doesn't matter to you, because when a "radicalized" Muslim detonates his suicide bomb and blows up a bunch of Muslim civilians or American soldiers you just smugly add the dead to the "America's fault" column of your scorecard. But it matters to the rest of us. :)

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