March 22, 2011

"Scott Walker is not Joe McCarthy. Their political convictions and the two moments in history are quite different."

Writes UW history prof William Cronon in a NYT op-ed:
But there is something about the style of the two men — their aggressiveness, their self-certainty, their seeming indifference to contrary views — that may help explain the extreme partisan reactions they triggered. McCarthy helped create the modern Democratic Party in Wisconsin by infuriating progressive Republicans, imagining that he could build a national platform by cultivating an image as a sternly uncompromising leader willing to attack anyone who stood in his way. Mr. Walker appears to be provoking some of the same ire from adversaries and from advocates of good government by acting with a similar contempt for those who disagree with him.

The turmoil in Wisconsin is not only about bargaining rights or the pension payments of public employees. It is about transparency and openness. It is about neighborliness, decency and mutual respect. Joe McCarthy forgot these lessons of good government, and so, I fear, has Mr. Walker. Wisconsin’s citizens have not.
A couple preliminary observations:

1. The protesters and the Democrats in the Wisconsin legislature are making a much bigger show of lacking "neighborliness, decency and mutual respect" than the Republicans, who won the election last fall and are attempting to solve a terrible economic problem. Legislators ran to another state and hid out to obstruct the majority, and the protesters have been chanting unneighborly chants and carrying outrageous signs — depicting Scott Walker as Hitler, etc. — for a month. They took over the Capitol, covering its marble walls with nasty signs, defiling its war monument, and breaking things. They mobbed a state senator. They made death threats! Not all of them. But how can you talk about neighborliness, decency and mutual respect and not acknowledge these things?

2. Cronon's the historian, and he points to Joe McCarthy. But couldn't one also point to Ronald Reagan? Yeah, I know: not from Wisconsin. But he was perceived as "a sternly uncompromising leader" when he was Governor of California. All the college kids — including me — thought he was a demon. Cronon says McCarthy "helped create the modern Democratic Party," but Reagan's role in creating the modern Republican Party is even more dramatic. Walker is much more like Reagan. In fact, Reagan's resemblance to McCarthy is greater than Walker's. Reagan got in front of the camera and said some pretty harsh things back in the late 60s. Walker always comes across as a nice person, making tough decisions and doing what he thinks needs to be done.

204 comments:

1 – 200 of 204   Newer›   Newest»
Jay said...

who won the election last fall and are attempting to solve a terrible economic problem

An economic problem created by Democrats.

MadisonMan said...

No, Jay, the economic problem in Wisconsin has been percolating since the days of TT.

ricpic said...

Another sanctimonious communist professor chimes in. He "fears." The professor fears Walker has actual convictions and will stick to them.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

How lame, if Walker is McCarthy, Doyle was Stalin.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

How about this; If Walker is Hitler, Doyle was Pol Pot.

El Presidente said...

Hey Althouse, Don't fuck up the narrative.

Irene said...

Cronon is fine tuning his material for his next appearance on American Experience or in a new Ken Burns documentary.

This piece is a palatable appetizer for the Public TV crowd.

TMink said...

Progressives only value compromise toward them. This is leftist puffery.

Trey

Jay said...

No, Jay, the economic problem in Wisconsin has been percolating since the days of TT.


Hilarious.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

William Cronon, BULLSHIT has been called on you.

damikesc said...

What part of this was done in secret? This wasn't Obamacare where nobody had a chance to read the bill before passage. This was done quite openly.

Sofa King said...

So, in Cronon's imagination, is simply passing legislation that Democrats don't like showing "contempt" for them? So far as I can tell, Walker bent over backwards to be accomodating - offering concessions and giving the Senators ample time to return, treating protestors with kid gloves, profusely thanking civil service employees who did their duty, and repeatedly acknowledging the concerns of the protestors.

This is contempt?

Hagar said...

That's pretty insane.

McCarthy was a befuddled drunk promoted by the media.
Walker has the media solidly against him - and he is not an alcoholic liar.

Hagar said...

fantasist.

PaulV said...

Cronon engages in McCarthyite tactics by sluring Walker by saying he is similiar to McCarthy. He is no netter that the liars in protests who say Walker is a Hilter or dictator. Google the term "unAmerican" and that too is a buzz word of democrats now. Shame.

EDH said...

Sure, but you forget William Cronon has to go to work the next day at the U of Wisconsin, in the History Dept.

"Neighborliness, decency and mutual respect" requires that history conform to the narrative.

paminwi said...

The economic problems are from all of our past "leaders", Democrats & Republicans from the Maple Bluff mansion to the legislature. We just have a Republican who is finally willing to deal with the situation. Not relying on "stimulus" $ or $ from the Medical Malpractice Fund to mask our problem.

Let's get beyond the blame and work on solving the problem

AJ Lynch said...

"Advocates of good government".

Maybe we could have good govt if we question everything we hear from govt poobahs and from their press agents, the MSM, and from their fan clubs in the university faculty lounges.

Meade said...

More apt would be a comparison of Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker with Wisconsin Governor Robert La Follette.

Both: Republican reformers, anti-slavery, opposed to monopoly, collusion, corruption of vested political/monied interests.

Neither: a friend to railroads.

damikesc said...

Paul, for all of his faults, McCarthy was correct about Communist infiltration of the government (the Venona cables reveal a lot). This professor is just wrong.

William said...

"Mr. Walker appears to be provoking some of the same ire from adversaries and from advocates of good government by acting with a similar contempt for those who disagree with him."

Contempt? From Walker? Governor Walker has been anything but. Disagreement over policy is not an act of contempt.

"Joe McCarthy forgot these lessons of good government, and so, I fear, has Mr. Walker. Wisconsin’s citizens have not."

Good Government?

Just because a particular special interest group's economic relationship with state government has changed does not make for "bad government"

This special interest group seeks to maintain its economic status, not by democratic processes (elections), but by anarchy in the streets.

All of this is just another case of (pro)regressive projection.

El Presidente said...

If Hitler were alive today he would have his minions calling opponents Fascists.

PaulV said...

Madman, did TT run any deficits or increase taxes like Doyle? Yes, he should have cut taxes.

Fen said...

Does the credentialed "historian" note that McCarthy was right?

There's so much leftist myth around that instance. So I guess one good libtard myth leads to the next these days.

bagoh20 said...

Is it just dishonesty and partisanship, or is this some kind of mass hysteria that causes so many people to make completely unsupportable arguments and be so aggressively unfair about it?

From politicians and academics publicly to virtually every protester who discussed this with Meadhouse on video, these people have been openly dishonest, misinformed and hateful in service of the cause of union power over taxpayers and voters. It's seems to be overpowering for them and irresistible, like an illness.

You can see them when confronted with simple questions as they realize they can't honestly support what they are saying, and you can watch them try to squirm out of what they say without backing down. They dodge and play dumb, and try everything they can to avoid simply considering any alternative viewpoint. It's embarrassing, or should be.

Fen said...

blech. Warn us when you link to Pravda.

"It is about neighborliness, decency and mutual respect. Joe McCarthy forgot these lessons of good government, and so, I fear, has Mr. Walker. Wisconsin’s citizens have not."

You know what, Winston Smith? Look to your own before you start lecturing us about civility again.

Fen said...

Writes UW history prof William Cronon in a NYT op-ed:

My bad, you did warn us.

Maybe add a "Fen don't click" tag in the AM before I've had my coffee.

shoutingthomas said...

Word simply seem to have no meaning in the contemporary Democratic lexicon.

He's like Joe McCarthy... translated...

I don't like him.

The rest is bullshit.

elliot said...

Agree with everything you said, Professor. But, if you're not careful, I'm going to start thinking you're a Conservative. ;)

AJ Lynch said...

"add a Fen don't click tag!" LOL.

wv= comic

PaulV said...

damikesc said...
Paul, for all of his faults, McCarthy was correct about Communist infiltration of the government (the Venona cables reveal a lot). This professor is just wrong.

True, But McCarty had no names of list in his pocket. Cronon has no facts in his lie. Since liberals rarely have an open mind it is easier just to make a comparison to Cronon use of a lie to smear Walker. Cronon is guilty of what Liberals pretend McCarthy did.

The Crack Emcee said...

William Cronon is being a horse's ass in a rag that'll let him get away with it.

SteveR said...

Walker is current events not History.

Maguro said...

Ugh, what a dreary, trite, predictable little essay. He checked off every liberal cliche in the book, include the hilariously inappropriate Joseph N. Welch "Have you no decency, Sir?" quote. I'll bet he puffed his chest up a bit when he typed that out, feeling a real progressive truth-teller.

A viscous sludge of liberal sanctimony, perfect for the NYT Op-Ed page.

Triangle Man said...

Hilarious.

Jay, only because it's true.

Under Tommy Thompson there was a structural deficit of more than a billion dollars in every budget.

shoutingthomas said...

By the way, you've got to admire the rhetorical strategy of likening Walker to McCarthy by stating that Scott Walker is not Joe McCarthy.

Der Perfesser gets right to the point.

He announces that he's lying.

Triangle Man said...

Does the credentialed "historian" note that McCarthy was right?

Fake but accurate.

MadisonMan said...

...and the only thing that saved TT's Republican Successor was tobacco money.

Henry said...

Scott Walker isn't John Wilkes Booth or Idi Amin, either.

Just for the record.

Nor is he Alger Hiss, Boss Tweed, Barry Bonds, or Benedict Arnold.

Belkys said...

McCarthy did have Eurasia right. He was a little late because Hoover has wiped most of them out by that time

Quayle said...

Do they even write this stuff anymore?

Cause I'm beginning to think that they have every story template already written, and they just plug in the current names and locations and press the "publish" button.

Belkys said...

Or Roger Clement, Charlie Sheen or Gadaffi

Marshal said...

This shouldn't be taken seriously. The Times is having a contest for who can tie Walker to the most vile historical figure. It's like Flight Attendants and Captains giving each other a word they have to use in their departure speeches.

shoutingthomas said...

You've got to admire the left's adamant refusal to acknowledge that the real issue is the taxpayer's money.

The left just takes it for granted that it is the duty of the taxpayers to fork over.

PETER V. BELLA said...

The liberals in academia, especially the progressive intellectual idiots, always pull out Tail Gunner Joe when things do not go their way. Yell McCartyism and the world will beat a path to your door to hear what you have to say. It is a great marketing tool and grabs attention.

Scott walker is not looking for union thugs under beds. He is not holding hearings to find union enemies of the state in public service. He is not creating a myth surrounding union thugs taking over the country. He is not equating union thugs with some imagined emerging danger.

He is trying to fix an economic problem caused by over generous politicians who were well paid by wealthy unions.

Walker is also living in real history, not some past idealistic glorified hisotry. Public employees are way better paid and have way better benefits than they did in the late 1950s- when public employee unions emerged as a force to be reckoned with.

Maybe the history professor should actually study history instead of trying to rewrite it.

Thorley Winston said...

So, in Cronon's imagination, is simply passing legislation that Democrats don't like showing "contempt" for them? So far as I can tell, Walker bent over backwards to be accomodating - offering concessions and giving the Senators ample time to return, treating protestors with kid gloves, profusely thanking civil service employees who did their duty, and repeatedly acknowledging the concerns of the protestors.


Agreed, it seems to me that if one wants an example of “aggressiveness” and “indifference to contrary views,” the last governor of Wisconsin who was notorious for using the line item veto to delete individual words and effectively rewrite bills that were passed by the Assembly would be a more deserving candidate.

MnMark said...

From where I sit, the Democrats and the protester/progressive Left have lost more of what little credibility they had left with their behavior in this incident.

It's kind of funny actually how hysterical they are about keeping the right for government employees to extract much better than average compensation from the taxpayer. It's really not a very principled stand in the first place, but for them to make out like Walker is Hitler and democracy has been destroyed and the sky is falling over such a really very modest change in the big scheme of things...it's quite a sight to behold.

AlphaLiberal said...

Uh huh. Wow, Ann, you sure do serve up the steaming piles of hypocrisy.

Despite the "gotchya" efforts of you and your husband to falsely protray the protesters, we know the overwhelming majority have NOT carried Nazi signs, did NOT mob a Senator, etc.

Police from both rank and file and leadership have praised the conduct of the overwhelming number of protesters. Judge Albert did, as well, after hearing testimony for days.

You are lying about other people and trying to support Fox News efforts to paint us as thugs. Shame on you.

shoutingthomas said...

The left keeps using distraction tactics:

o It's the corporations
o Walker is Hitler
o Teachers are being demonized
o Republicans are monsters
o McCarthy is back

Anything but the actual issue of solvency and giving the taxpayers a break.

Must ignore at all costs the generous wages, perks, lifetime security and benefits of public employees.

Paul Zrimsek said...

I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the UW History Department as being members of the Kochunist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the Governor's Office.

Henry said...

Lessee the logic here.

1. Walker and the Republican majority propose restrictions on public employee unions. These are significant restrictions, but no more so than laws that have passed in other states.

2. Instead of debating the legislation, the Democrat minority flees the state, making legislative action impossible.

3. Public employee unions stage weeks of protest, occupying the capital and demonizing their opponents. Secondary protests target perceived pro-Walker businesses. Republicans are stalked to their homes and sent death threats.

4. Clearly, Walker has no decency.

shoutingthomas said...

Thanks, Omega, for reminding me of the other distraction tactic:

o This is all about Fox News
o Fox News lies

There's always more money! The taxpayers are loaded.

Lincolntf said...

Hey Alpha, why so defensive? Are you the shitbag who defaced the Heg statue? Or maybe it was one of your worthless buddies?

Henry said...

we know the overwhelming majority have NOT carried Nazi signs, did NOT mob a Senator, etc.

It was a really nice mob. Cheery. Violent, but cheery.

AL, if anyone ever asks you to testify as a character witness, for your own good, don't accept.

Robert said...

Bless you, Ann Althouse. You show more good sense than almost anyone else commenting on WI politics. Keep at it.

MikeR said...

No one hated McCarthy because of his "aggressiveness, their self-certainty, their seeming indifference to contrary views". It was because of his viciousness and willingness to roll over people's lives to accomplish his goals. He "had no decency".

This is kind of like comparing someone to Hitler because they have the same mustache.

spinstrangenesscharm said...

People like William Cronon are the reason why I gave history and polisci a wide berth in college (despite my passion for them) and stuck to the sciences. At least there is no difference between liberal and conservative physics or chemistry. (That is, until the hyper-politicized field of CAGW came along.)

I admire Ann Althouse for being "out of the closet" in such an environment.

And Hagar's comment Re: McCarthy vs Walker nails it.

bagoh20 said...

"Fox News efforts to paint us as thugs."

People protest in public to be seen and heard. Showing them doing so and printing their threats is not "painting", it's reporting. It's the truth you don't like.

Hagar said...

McCarthy was not "right."

There were indeed communists, fellow travelers, and spies around - and more than has been acknowledged - but McCarthy did not expose any of them.

The real ones have generally come to light later, by regular police and counter-intelligence work, and memoirs by those who had served their time, KGB files found after the fall of the Soviet Union, etc.
I have read that the Cohn and Schine act uncovered precisely one genuine such, and then it was one the FBI already had under surveillance, but then could not prosecute because of the egregious misbehavior by Cohn and Schine.

damikesc said...

AL...but Tea Partiers were violent racists, right?

roesch-voltaire said...

Cronon writes well representing the 990,000 out of the 100,000 protestors who formed no mob, nor threaten anyone but were and are deeply concerned about Walker's refusal to understand the opposing view points in his rush to pass a budget that ignores Wisconsin tradition, which is why the recall movement has gained such strength.

DADvocate said...

We learned from the protester the other day that if you do things that aren't nice you're like Hitler. The good professor Cronon knows this is a ridiculous comparison, so he must use one that superficially appears more accurate.

As a liberal and a professor, he thinks if he says it it makes it so. Of course, discussing anything of substance, such as resolving the budget crisis, is out of the question. As a UW professor, which puts him in the same employment group as the protesters, he's hardly an unbiased source for opinon.

One of the things that has made Ann and Meade truly noble in this entire situation is that they have looked far beyond their personal interests.

modeyeu said...

Vote your blogspot to Top blogspots

Jay said...

we know the overwhelming majority have NOT carried Nazi signs, did NOT mob a Senator, etc.


Uh, nobody said that the "overwhelming majority" did.

By the way, when are you going to condemn the death threats made against the Republicans and their families?

DADvocate said...

Are you the shitbag who defaced the Heg statue?

I'm willing to bet the whomever defaced the Heg statue has visited this blog at least several times over the past few weeks and knows of Meade's feelings about the statue being used for signs, etc. The act was probably as much an effort to offend Meade and Ann as to make any sort of statement.

AlphaLiberal said...

Then there's this special Althouse hypocrisy.

In Wisconsin's 2010 election campaign, Scott Walker never mentioned once his "bomb" of stripping public employees of collective bargaining rights. Not ONCE!

The people did not vote on union busting and there was no mandate for union busting. Of course, Althouse supoprts union-busting and says Walker should have a free hand to do anything he wants. BUT THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION, NO MANDATE FOR UNION BUSTING.

In 2008, Democrats at all levels campaigned on health care reform as one of the top issues. The election was a mandate for action on health care.

Unlike now, in 2009/10, Althouse supported Republican scorched earth opposition to health care reform. She did not criticize the worst behavior from the worst opponents (and it was bad) as she now demands everybody do among union protestors!

Do you even hear yourself, Ann?

And what is the common thread? Ann Althouse sides with the powerful against working people, against poor people. Because Althouse is an egotistical, overpaid, pampered, tenured professor who will never want for income or health care. Althouse has no simple human compassion.

Shame on you, Ann Althouse.

Jay said...

Under Tommy Thompson there was a structural deficit of more than a billion dollars in every budget.


Which party controlled the legislature during that time?

shoutingthomas said...

Cronon writes well representing the 990,000 out of the 100,000 protestors who formed no mob, nor threaten anyone but were and are deeply concerned about Walker's refusal to understand the opposing view points in his rush to pass a budget that ignores Wisconsin tradition, which is why the recall movement has gained such strength.

Yes, but the Tea Party was routinely depicted as murderous thugs for staging quiet demonstrations.

Walker is refusing to understand the opposing points of view. Republicans won the election and the public employee gravy train is over.

Recent Wisconsin tradition is to milk the taxpayers relentlessly to provide exorbitant pay and benefits to public workers.

We'll see how the future shapes up, won't we?

rhhardin said...

The most votes wins, not the loudest voices.

That's why we have secret ballots.

Lincolntf said...

What was more troubling than the individuals waving swastikas, issuing death threats and vandalizing monuments was that none of the other protesters said or did anything to dissuade the thugs. They let the 10 or 20% of them with truly violent tendencies and destructive impulses run the show.

AlphaLiberal said...

knows of Meade's feelings about the statue being used for signs, etc.

Well, Meade, if you don't like it, you can always leave the state.

It's a statue, for crap's sake, and not of a religious figure or of a deity. It is not "defiled" it is adorned.

You guys just make this shit up as you go along. Then you fling it.

Paddy O said...

"Walker's refusal to understand the opposing view points"

It's called "disagreement".

That's what is so baffling to me. People don't get the fact that there can actually be disagreement about responses and approaches. So, they think, like a three year old, they just have to make more noise to get attention.

But if you're saying, "Walker's refusal to agree with us" is a basis for demonstration and demonization, then, again, that's more of a totalitarian impulse than democratic.

Which is fine if that's where folks are coming from, but I wish they'd just own it, rather than try to couch it in pseudo-empathetic language.

Hagar said...

R-V,

This is getting tiresome.

Your position - and that of your fellow Democrats generally - seem to be that when Democrats win an election and get a governorship and/or a legislative majority, that constitutes a mandate ("I won1"), and those of opposing views should meekly submit to the democratic (or Democratic) majority, but when the Republicans do, it is entirely unreasonable of them to enact and act on their programs; they should "consider the oppositions views" and be soliticious of them.

With all due respect Sir, you are full of prunes!

DADvocate said...

Well, Meade, if you don't like it, you can always leave the state.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!

The tolerante, diversity oriented left speaks.

Wisconsin, love it or leave it.

spinstrangenesscharm said...

And those that were trying to paint the Tea Party as "raaaaacist" "violent" "homophobic teabaggers" [sic], etc... based on not even 1/10th the ACTUAL incidents seen from the WI protesters have absolutely no standing to say we are painting a whole movement by the excesses of a few.

It is becoming ever more apparent to me that the left (which I once belonged to) regards standards of intellectual honesty as "merely serving bourgeois truth, rather than revolutionary truth".

spinstrangenesscharm said...

And those that were trying to paint the Tea Party as "raaaaacist" "violent" "homophobic teabaggers" [sic], etc... based on not even 1/10th the ACTUAL incidents seen from the WI protesters have absolutely no standing to say we are painting a whole movement by the excesses of a few.

It is becoming ever more apparent to me that the left (which I once belonged to) regards standards of intellectual honesty as "merely serving bourgeois truth, rather than revolutionary truth".

DADvocate said...

With all due respect Sir, you are full of prunes!

Hager - remember, respect is earned and they've earned very little.

former law student said...

Is it just dishonesty and partisanship, or is this some kind of mass hysteria that causes so many people to make completely unsupportable arguments and be so aggressively unfair about it?

Indeed. Cronon's point is that Wisconsin Republicans have turned their back on their legacy:

1. Republicans supported collective bargaining for municipal employees in 1959

2. The Republican Governor Knowles promoted the effort to extend collective bargaining to state employees in 1967. The bill was passed by a Republican legislature.

Now Scott Walker and today's Republicans are tearing down what there forebears erected.

Consider that Wisconsin's Republican heritage is second to none. Recall the GOP was founded in Wisconsin. "Fighting Bob" LaFollette -- Republican. The entire Progressive movement -- Republican.

But one man tarnished that legacy. Who was the other Wisconsin Republican who didn't fit with Wisconsin Republican tradition? Tailgunner Joe.

Paul Zrimsek said...

An even cruder version of the same damn thing, originating from-- hey, whaddya know-- a UW history professor!

Maguro said...

It is not "defiled" it is adorned.

"Adorned" with communist slogans, really?

Some people are beyond parody.

roesch-voltaire said...

Gov. Walker has even changed Stanly Fish's views towards academic unions, and I quote: Should Governor Walker have his way (as it seems he has), should New Hampshire Republicans succeed in disqualifying citizens likely to vote against them, should Riley’s admonition that “students, parents and taxpayers . . . think twice about how unionization affects the quality of higher education” be heeded, the result will be a further entrenchment of the interests that labor to monopolize wealth and power and to create a world in which any of us can be dismissed in the name of achieving a “more flexible workforce,” that is, a workforce that has no choice but to accept whatever its masters deign to offer.

We are all badgers now.

shoutingthomas said...

Indeed. Cronon's point is that Wisconsin Republicans have turned their back on their legacy:

Well, yes, because the legacy of largesse to public employees has bankrupted the state.

Lincolntf said...

"Now Scott Walker and today's Republicans are tearing down what there forebears erected."

Cry me a river. The grotesquely over-compensated, and corrupt, public employee unions are being told that they can't have all the cookies and ice cream they want so they're throwing a tantrum. The only thing Walker is doing is saving the spoiled little shits from themselves.

SteveR said...

Well, Alpha Liberal, if you don't like it, you can always leave the state.

shoutingthomas said...

roesch-voltaire

You are so full of that Marxist bullshit.

Fuck you and that stupid cant.

You're a communist, asshole. You're too fucking stupid to know it, which is even worse.

Carol_Herman said...

The NY Times is in the gutter! Back when the junior senator from Wisconsin was making headlines ... the coverage was weighed in his way. And, against the army. "Have you no decency, sir," Walsh, defending his client, has come into the lexicon.

If we're gonna ask now "who has no shame," the answer is the NY Times.

Plus, CNN, the AP, and Reuters, who went into Tripoli, and surrounded Ghadaffi as human shields. Which is why the second night of the operation, there, was called off. With planes having to turn back.

I'm sure we're gonna hear all sorts of vile comparisons. Walker just has to stand firm, and hope his fellow republicans don't develop "wobbly knees."

former law student said...

You've got to admire the left's adamant refusal to acknowledge that the real issue is the taxpayer's money.

The left just takes it for granted that it is the duty of the taxpayers to fork over.


The real issue is not the taxpayers' money because the public employee unions volunteered to accept the pay and benefit cuts that Walker sought in his bill.

The real issue is breaking the unions as per the revised bill that passed both houses of the legislature because it had no fiscal effect.

It's getting like the Augean stables in here.

PaulV said...

AlphaLiberal uses a McCarthy-ite lie when he said...
"Uh huh. Wow, Ann, you sure do serve up the steaming piles of hypocrisy.

Despite the "gotchya" efforts of you and your husband to falsely protray the protesters, we know the overwhelming majority have NOT carried Nazi signs, did NOT mob a Senator, etc."
They never did that. You are not man enough to even try to link or quote them because your pants are on fire.

Fen said...

Cronon writes well representing the 990,000 out of the 100,000 protestors who formed no mob, nor threatened anyone

Right. They just stared down at their shoelaces while their Union Brothers behaved like Brownshirts.

Ward Chruchill would call them Little Eichmanns.

But I'm happy you've move on from "its just a lone nut" to "a few bad apples" to "10,000".

If only because Althouse & Meade have forced you to recognize the obvious - you're associated with thugs and goons.

DADvocate said...

1959? 1967? Now the progressive liberal makes the argument for being reactionary.

Times have changed FLS. Get with the program. Or, should we stick with the Democratic postions of 1859?

rdkraus said...

Shorter Cronon:

Time to smear Walker.

Alinsky:

Isolate the target
Smear
Destroy

shoutingthomas said...

The real issue is breaking the unions as per the revised bill that passed both houses of the legislature because it had no fiscal effect.

Liar.

Without breaking cycle of the mandatory dues passed on to Democratic polls and kicked back to the public employees, the cycle of ever expanding wages and benefits cannot be broke.

You're just lying.

This is about stopping the public employee unions from buying Democratic polls. It's about stopping the kickbacks.

former law student said...

The grotesquely over-compensated, and corrupt, public employee unions

What adjectives do conservatives have for the Koch brothers, I wonder? Obscenely overcompensated? Unholy compensation? Chuting to Sheol?

Fen said...

Paul, italics so we don't confuse your words with AlpahLibtard's filth.

(i) .... (/i) but replace ( ) with < >

Lincolntf said...

It's not "breaking the Unions", so much as it is breaking the Democrat Party's stranglehold on all public jobs. The thing the Dems fear the most is that they will no longer be able to confiscate money from public worker's paychecks without the employee's consent. That hits them in the pocketbook and their power base, so they're willing to riot to prevent it.

bagoh20 said...

See where the argument goes: 1959, some vague idea of the value of unions as a religious concept, contortions about who did what when long ago.

It's irrelevant! There is not enough money to have what you want, and besides it's unfair to those who pay, and the voters have said they want it cut back.

It mostly just math, and it's happening here and now. Address the issue at hand, unless you know you can't, and therefore must deflect. What's your solution bright boy?

shoutingthomas said...

What adjectives do conservatives have for the Koch brothers, I wonder? Obscenely overcompensated? Unholy compensation? Chuting to Sheol?

What in the fuck do the Koch brothers have to do with this?

Nothing.

Fen said...

FLS: What adjectives do conservatives have for the Koch brothers, I wonder?

Why does that matter?

"The Koch family of industrialists and businessmen is most notable for their control of Koch Industries, the second largest privately owned company in the United States. The family business was started by Fred C. Koch, who developed a new method for refining heavy oil into gasoline.[1][2] Fred's four sons became involved in litigation against each other in the 1980s and 1990s.[3] According to the Koch Family Foundations and Philanthropy website, "the foundations and the individual giving of Koch family members" have financially supported organizations "fostering entrepreneurship, education, human services, at-risk youth, arts and culture, and medical research." [4]

Lincolntf said...

I love it when the hysterics start squawking about the oh-so scary Koch brothers. It's the online equivalent of crying "Uncle".

edutcher said...

McCarthy was found to have overplayed his hand when it was called and gave the Lefties the straw man (a lot of Leftist McCarthyana is an embellishment of the facts) they needed for a quarter century.

As some Lefty said of LBJ during 'Nam, "If he didn't exist, we would have had to invent him".

Which, in fact, they did. As several have noted, Joe was right about the Commies, he just let his ambition get in the way.

El Presidente said...

If Hitler were alive today he would have his minions calling opponents Fascists.

No, Adolf was always solicitous of Il Duce's feelings.

AlphaLiberal said...

knows of Meade's feelings about the statue being used for signs, etc.

Well, Meade, if you don't like it, you can always leave the state.


Lefty tolerance and respect for free speech.

It's a statue, for crap's sake, and not of a religious figure or of a deity. It is not "defiled" it is adorned.

Let's see someone pee on a statue of BHO and hear Alpha's reaction.

Fen said...

FLS: The real issue is not the taxpayers' money because the public employee unions volunteered to accept the pay and benefit cuts that Walker sought in his bill.

Thats another MSM lie.

Two union leaders WITHOUT THE AUTHORITY to negotiate said they would accept. That carries as much weight as if you agreed to accept cuts on behalf of the PSUs.

shoutingthomas said...

And fls,

You're ignorant of economics.

The Kock brothers arent' compensated as employees.

They run businesses and make profits.

Idiot.

They are producers... something alien your imagination.

shoutingthomas said...

In fls' language about the Koch brothers, you see an ugly reality of the left.

They hate producers of wealth.

damikesc said...

Fls, so your NEW argument is that going against your party's stance from the 50s is bad?

And did R-V admit that there were 10,000 violent union protestors? Or that the non violent ones outnumbered the full number of protestors by 990%?

And where was this "rush" to pass the budget? And are you capable of comprehending that one can understand other views but disagree with them?

Remember when the Dems expected every conservative to apologize over an alleged racial slur said to a member of the CBC?

former law student said...

Liar.

Without breaking cycle of the mandatory dues passed on to Democratic polls and kicked back to the public employees


"Mandatory dues passed on to Democratic polls" = more conservative bullshit:

Political Action Dues Refunds

All members must initially pay political action contributions (PAC) of $19.99 for full time educators, $10.00 for full time ESP and $5.00 for part time ESP.

PAC refund requests for current year rebates must be made, in writing, between September 1 and October 30, or within 60 days of becoming a member, to WEAC President's Office. Please send a letter to Mary Bell, WEAC President, P.O. Box 8003, Madison, WI 53708.


Give me a list of all Wisconsin public employee unions and I'll find you similar provisions for each one.

Meade said...

AlfalphaLiberal calling someone else a "hypocrite."

Rich.

MadisonMan said...

Which party controlled the legislature during that time?

Do you not know the answer?

The buck stops at the Governor's desk for budget bills. With his veto pen, he can be pretty creative.

Henry said...

@roesch-voltaire -- Given that the alternative to union concessions is layoffs I'm not sure what Fish's point is.

In my experience the least regulated work environments have the lowest barriers to entry and the most flexibility. This is exactly the opposite of "a further entrenchment of the interests that labor to monopolize wealth and power."

In the public sector, unions are "the interests that labor to monopolize wealth and power." There is no evil plutocrat across the table. There are only the voters whose wealth and power is individual and distributed.

damikesc said...

Fls, if they accepted the pay cuts...why the ACTUAL rush to complete contracts with supportive districts that included none of them?

Fen said...

Ha. Thats your argument, FLS? That you can write in to get a refund of your dues if you don't like funding corrupt Democrat pols? LOL.

rhhardin said...

Coulter has a book on McCarthy being right after all, if you want to add that battle to the mix.

Coulter has a tendency to be right about contrarian facts.

I wasn't interested at the time and so have no opinion. Both sides were boring.

PaulV said...

former law student reveals himself as a reactionary when he said...
"Is it just dishonesty and partisanship, or is this some kind of mass hysteria that causes so many people to make completely unsupportable arguments and be so aggressively unfair about it?
Indeed. Cronon's point is that Wisconsin Republicans have turned their back on their legacy:

This is the time of hope and change. Why do you want to live in the past? New problems have arisen and fls wants to hidde his head in the sand as a reactionary cad.

shoutingthomas said...

So, dues are mandatory and to get a refund you must formally apply via letter.

Gotcha, fls.

So, they take your money and you have to ask for it back.

Perfect.

The Democratic Party gets your money unless you formally request a refund.

Rich.

fls, you want to raid the public treasury to support your political point of view. You are utterly, completely corrupt.

vnjagvet said...

And what happens to the teacher who writes the letter requesting a PAC rebate, FLS?

JohnJ said...

"The policies that the current governor, Scott Walker, has sought to overturn, in other words, are legacies of his own party."

Well…, so what?

Different times. Different circumstances. Different solutions.

As for the other anxious ruminations of the Op-Ed, I trust the NYT has already contacted Althouse for a response.

DADvocate said...

What adjectives do conservatives have for the Koch brothers, I wonder?

You are simply trying to use the Koch brothers as a distraction to avoid the real issues. As a liberal who is envious of "rich" people, you think they epitomize all that is evil. Remember, envy, pride (hubris) and wrath on three of the deadly sins.

Meade said...

AlfalphaLiberal said...
"knows of Meade's feelings about the statue being used for signs, etc.

Well, Meade, if you don't like it, you can always leave the state."

Or I can clean it up a little.

Alfalpha, how are protesters entitled to deface memorials and statues that belong to all of us?

former law student said...

They hate producers of wealth.

How did the Kochs produce wealth?

Compare how Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak produced wealth -- currently Apple has a larger market capitalization than Microsoft. And where did the Steves receive their education? From unionized public school teachers.

shoutingthomas said...

So, to summarize the fls viewpoint.

1. He wants to raid the public treasury to fund his political point of view.

2. He hates private producers of wealth

3. Private producers of wealth should have their wealth confiscated and dumped into the public treasury.

4. Back to #1.

In other words, fls, you're a welfare queen.

Fen said...

And what happens to the teacher who writes the letter requesting a PAC rebate?

She's blacklisted. Her career advancement stalls. She gets hand the shit details. Her car is keyed. She's ostracized by everyone at work. Etc.

shoutingthomas said...

How did the Kochs produce wealth?

They produced wealth by creating businesses, making profits and employee people.

Something you wouldn't understand.

Maguro said...

I'm sure that writing a letter asking for a dues refund would really endear you to the union leadership.

You might as well skip the letter and just go out and key your own car. It would at least save you the cost of a postage stamp.

former law student said...

As a liberal who is envious of "rich" people, you think they epitomize all that is evil.

Conservatives lack a sense of proportion. They envy the "high pay" of "well-paid" schoolteachers. Yet they do not envy those who make mountains of mazuma. Why?

Lincolntf said...

"From unionized public school teachers."

They must not've been raised in Wisconsin. The unionized teachers up there don't even bother to show up for work.

damikesc said...

Fls, tax dollars of ever increasing amounts aren't being taken by force to give the Kochs great benefits and high pay.

Fen said...

Conservatives lack a sense of proportion. They envy the "high pay" of "well-paid" schoolteachers

We don't envy them, we simply can't afford to keep supporting their cadillac benefits with our taxdollars.

shoutingthomas said...

Conservatives lack a sense of proportion. They envy the "high pay" of "well-paid" schoolteachers. Yet they do not envy those who make mountains of mazuma. Why?

Bullshit.

Taxpayers pay schoolteachers. There is a limit to what we can afford to pay.

Private producers of wealth provide goods and services that people can choose to buy.

You are so fucking ignorant.

Do you think manna just falls from the heavens? Who is going to produce goods and services? Where are the taxpayers going to continue to come up with this waterfall of money?

PaulV said...

(i) .... (/i) but replace ( ) with <
I hope
Edutcher, Is the difference between Nazi and Communist is that on is National Socialism and other is International Socialism.

former law student said...

So, they take your money and you have to ask for it back.

Perfect.


That's how my arrangement with the IRS works -- have they ever keyed your car?

I'm glad I don't live in the world of conservatives' imagination where Mary Bell drives all over he state, keying members' cars. Why do thoughts of retaliation and revenge come so naturally to conservatives?

Lincolntf said...

FLS reveals the childish core of Liberalism. They envy everyone who has the slightest bit more than they do and think that Conservatives do likewise. We're not jealous, FLS, we just understand how economies work.

PaulV said...

(i) .... (/i) but replace ( ) with <
Tey again

Maguro said...

Compare how Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak produced wealth -- currently Apple has a larger market capitalization than Microsoft. And where did the Steves receive their education? From unionized public school teachers.

Yes, those guys grew up in California, where the Democratic governor just laid off 19,000 unionized teachers. Where's your outrage about that? Don't you live in California? You should be out at the barricades, comrade.

shoutingthomas said...

Why do thoughts of fleecing the taxpayers, living on welfare and punishing producers come so easily to you, fls?

roesch-voltaire said...

Shouting now claim that I am a communist, that Cronon is a communist, why anyone who does not see the world as he does must be a communist-- good example of the worst kind of right wing thinking, but fortunately most folks on this blog do not fall into that bog.

former law student said...

Fls, tax dollars of ever increasing amounts aren't being taken by force to give the Kochs great benefits and high pay.

I had to pay $4 a gallon of gas the other day -- none of that found its way into the Kochs' pockets? I did have the choice to stay home or ride my bike, I suppose.

damikesc said...

So, fls argues that unions are as nice and friendly as the IRS.

That must be comforting to members.

Sofa King said...

The real issue is breaking the unions as per the revised bill that passed both houses of the legislature because it had no fiscal effect.


What a crock of shit. You know full well the difference between "is a fiscal bill" and "has an effect on finances."

And your line about concessions is bullshit too. The state unions have no power to make deals on behalf of the locals. Not to mention, pay and contributions are not the only issue. Have you even heard of WEA Trust?

shoutingthomas said...

Shouting now claim that I am a communist, that Cronon is a communist, why anyone who does not see the world as he does must be a communist-- good example of the worst kind of right wing thinking, but fortunately most folks on this blog do not fall into that bog.

You are a commie.

Just too fucking stupid to know it.

You actually think you're sophisticated.

You missed the primary lessons of the 20th century, idiot.

Paul Zrimsek said...

My God, if you've lost Stanley Fish, you've... uhh, probably lost Judith Butler as well.

VW: bratrabi. No thanks, we'll stick with sauerkraut.

Lincolntf said...

FLS, why don't you just drill your own oil and refine it? Because you lack the skill, smarts and resources and you need people like the Koch's to do all the work for you. And you resent having to pay them for their work. The irony is just too much.

shoutingthomas said...

I had to pay $4 a gallon of gas the other day -- none of that found its way into the Kochs' pockets? I did have the choice to stay home or ride my bike, I suppose.

The four buck a gallon gas is courtesy of environmentalists who have blocked domestic production of gas and oil, and Obama, who has shut down Gulf oil production.

In other words, you did this to yourself... and to us, as well.

former law student said...

Fls, so your NEW argument is that going against your party's stance from the 50s is bad?

My "NEW argument" is to read the oped for yourselves -- don't accept the professor's framing of it.

damikesc said...

Well, fls, if the guy you elected didn't decide to stop coastal drilling...might not be as big a problem.

And you are aware that with a tax, you have to pay it, right? Buying gas isn't a tax. You spending money to buy gas, mind you, gave the government more money than it gave the Kochs.

Fen said...

FLS: I had to pay $4 a gallon of gas the other day -- none of that found its way into the Kochs' pockets?

Spoiled brat. No doubt you want Free Gas Now! as part of your collective bargaining agreement.

"No Freebies, No Peace!"

Typical union mindset.

Henry said...

FLS wrote Conservatives lack a sense of proportion. They envy the "high pay" of "well-paid" schoolteachers. Yet they do not envy those who make mountains of mazuma. Why?

Where you used the word "proportion" you should have used "envy." Where you used the word "envy" you might as well strike the whole sentence, since the motives and dichotomy you posit are both false.

Conservatives understand proportion because they recognize the difference between broad-based and narrow categories.

The final bastion of every liberal argument is the outlier. Philosophically this begs the point as financially it doesn't work. For budgets, programs, and economies to work you look at broad-based costs, broad-based revenues, broad-based legal structures.

When every argument is about special categories of people (the evil rich, the virtuous union), fairness and proportion go by the wayside.

virgil xenophon said...

"It is not 'defiled' it is adorned."

LOL, Al, so If I walk up to you and smear you with horse-shit I'll not be "defiling" your visage, I'll just be "adorning" it, right?

damikesc said...

I did read it.

Walker is bad because he doesn't follow what Republicans did in the 50s.

Apparently, one is unable to stop a bad idea ever in fls' worldview.

Fen said...

RV: Shouting now claim that I am a communist, that Cronon is a communist, why anyone who does not see the world as he does must be a communist-- good example of the worst kind of right wing thinking, but fortunately most folks on this blog do not fall into that bog.

Right. Most of us think you are a Socialist.

Socialism is about slaves and masters. And I think slavers should be shot on sight.

Fortunately, we live in a country that tolerates people like you and restrains people like me from taking you out.

cboygan said...

This is obviously an effort to link the name of Walker to McCarthy for a national audience.

As a "history lesson" it leaves a lot to be desired. As to the notion that McCarthy's excesses resulted in a reborn Democratic party, the reality is that in Wisconsin, like the rest of the nation, there has been an ongoing realignment of the political scene with conservatives migrating to the Republican party and liberals to the Democratic party. This would have happened regardless of McCarthy. The only difference is that for a long period of time Wisconsin Democrats as an organized entity were a third party (and sometimes a fourth party) behind the Progressive Republicans, the Stalwart Republicans and the Socialists. Over time, the Progressives and Socialists migrated to the Democrats and were replaced by the Democrats.

The other part of the analysis that does not work is that LaFollette was engaging in reform against the bosses on behalf of the working population. Isn't Walker doing the same thing--reforming government for the working population against the union bosses?

In the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s public sector collective bargaining was just an experiment. Forty, fifty and sixty years later we are seeing that the experiment has become institutionalized and has created a vested special interest. Walker is the agent of change, seeking to shake up the status quo. I would argue that this is in the best tradition of Wisconsin reformers.

PogoПОССУМ said...

Learned Профессор Cronon and NY Time is both know Beloved Lead Lenin wise sayings:

"Ложь сказала часто достаточно будет правдой."
The lie if she is told often, it become truth!

How blessed by Marx was it that the blowhard and drunk McCarthy came to expose the spies.
So focus change to the McCarthy!
Bad bad fat and drunk and country rube man!

Alger Hiss, our most special spy work with FDR, and other spies like Rosenbergs (Jew, but we take what we get) give us many many US secrets.

But all USA remember is the man from cow country who was in right church, wrong pew.

Ha ha ha!
Americanski of University is still the полезный идиот useful idiot.

In Stalin Wisconsyn, Democratic Parties YOU!!

Fen said...

Citizens of Moscow using up their own furniture as firewood to survive the winter, because the Politburo Elites diverted all the timber resources to build their dachas on the Black Sea coastline.

Thats how socialism always plays out. Anyone promoting it is suspect.

James said...

>>More apt would be a comparison of Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker with Wisconsin Governor Robert La Follette.

Both: Republican reformers, anti-slavery, opposed to monopoly, collusion, corruption of vested political/monied interests.

Neither: a friend to railroads. <<


Heh...several of my liberal friends were shocked to learn that Fighting Bob was a Republican.

Hoosier Daddy said...

The real issue is breaking the unions as per the revised bill that passed both houses of the legislature ...

Requiring unions to collect their own dues and being recertified by the membership each year is 'breaking them'?

I would think that if the membership is pro-union, they would cheerfully write a check for their dues and proudly vote YES for re-certification.

Think of it as renewing one's wedding vows no?

Henry said...

Think of it as renewing one's wedding vows no?

Zing!

Trooper York said...

Even though I like to tease you Roachy I do not think you are a communist.

I just think you are a fool.

And a dangerous one since you are in position to influence young minds.

Much like the unionized teachers union who have been illustrating why they should not be in the position to work with other peoples children.

DADvocate said...

And where did the Steves receive their education?

Not that it matters because your argument is totally irrelevant to what's going on now, as well as being anedcotal, but teachers in California didn't have collective bargaining rights when the two Steves were in school. I wonder how many serial killers graduated from California schools.

Henry said...

For some reason, talking public sector unions, this Onion piece seems pertinent:

Stupid me, I used to think seniority mattered. But after three decades of just going through the motions day in and day out, along come these college-age hotshots whose biggest assets seem to be a birth certificate with 1987 on it and the capacity to do the same work I do much more efficiently and with a better attitude. I'd already been barely doing my job for years when these guys were still learning to read...

edutcher said...

rhhardin said...

Coulter has a book on McCarthy being right after all, if you want to add that battle to the mix.

Coulter has a tendency to be right about contrarian facts.

I wasn't interested at the time and so have no opinion. Both sides were boring.


Having read it (an easy read, she writes better than she talks), the bibliography is impressive and every point in the book has a citation. She is very much aware of Lefty fact-checkers and doesn't give them any openings.

PaulV said...
(i) .... (/i) but replace ( ) with <
I hope
Edutcher, Is the difference between Nazi and Communist is that on is National Socialism and other is International Socialism.


There are many fine points, but my take of the basics is...

In National Socialism, the means of production are privately owned, but the government directs what is to be produced, quantities, etc. It's as much of a planned economy as any other kind of socialism.

What we think of as Communism is really state capitalism where the means of production are owned and all decisions dictated by the state. Interestingly, Italian Fascism had more in common with Soviet Russia than Germany.

PS If you're having HTML trouble, everything is enclosed in angle brackets, < and >, with the spec - i for italic, b for bold, enclosed. A forward slash, /, is used to close the expression

As (left angle bracket)i(right angle bracket) sentence (left angle bracket)/i(right angle bracket) for an italicized sentence.

JohnJ said...

"It is about neighborliness, decency and mutual respect. Joe McCarthy forgot these lessons of good government, and so, I fear, has Mr. Walker."

I find this particular lefty talking point among the most absurd—right up there with "This is what democracy looks like."

Walker has been accommodating on almost all matters except for the core elements of the legislation. The constant refrain that he ran roughshod over his political opponents is demonstrably untrue.

Sheez! It's almost as though there's an implicit understanding on the left to toss in this accusation whenever the opportunity presents itself.

dbp said...

Good thing there were unionized teachers for little Steve or he might have ended up a convicted felon in a state pen. Oh wait! Aren't most felons also products of public education?

former law student said...

The final bastion of every liberal argument is the outlier.

Like Joe the Plumber identifying with the Koch brothers? As quixotic as the poilu carrying the Marshal's baton in his knapsack.

Chip S. said...

fls, You know, you're right about those thieving Kochs. Just this morning I was walking down the aisle of the supermarket minding my own business when a giant 12-pack of Quilted Northern bathroom tissue jumped into my cart and forced me at gunpoint to surrender 8 bucks to the cashier.

When I found out that Koch Industries makes that stuff, it all made perfect sense.

shoutingthomas said...

Like Joe the Plumber identifying with the Koch brothers? As quixotic as the poilu carrying the Marshal's baton in his knapsack.

fls, you're a fucking nutjob with that Koch obsession.

Don't you worry more about fluoride in the drinking water?

You are a certifiable, dipshit nutjob.

Do you have a job? SSI?

Henry said...

Like Joe the Plumber identifying with the Koch brothers?

That's three outliers in one sentence! You're on fire, man!

Marshal said...

"roesch-voltaire said...

Shouting now claim that I am a communist, that Cronon is a communist, why anyone who does not see the world as he does must be a communist-- good example of the worst kind of right wing thinking, but fortunately most folks on this blog do not fall into that bog."

Sadly we see the worst kinds of left wing thinking from the trolls, including this one. There are intelligent and moderate liberals, a scared minority to be sure. Too bad none present their ideas.

Alex said...

I think I'll contribute to Althouse's Paypal just to spite Alpha Liberal.

Fred Drinkwater said...

RV quotes Stan Fish saying Walker et al want to :" create a world in which any of us can be dismissed in the name of achieving a “more flexible workforce,”

All I have to say is, Welcome to the real world, buddies. I was laid off 15 months ago for essentially that reason (and not for the first time in my life), but I think Walker et al are right.

WV: blena - essential household item e.g. Hey Wanda, throw sumore m'rita mix inna blena.

Alex said...

My entire existence from here on out is to rub salt into AL's wounds.

Alex said...

Fred - white collar workers of the world - UNITE!

Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!Strike!

JohnJ said...

I was pedaling away on the exercise bike downstairs the other night watching a PBS program on the Sphinx, which I had downloaded with a Roku box. At the beginning of the program where they acknowledge the various financial backers, they particularly noted the generous contribution of…David Koch.

David Koch?

DAVID KOCH?!

My God, the Koch Brothers have somehow co-opted the Roku data stream!

Alex said...

The Koch Brothers are Emmanuel Goldstein. The left must mindlessly hate on these modern day John Galts.

Alex said...

One thing I have to say about the left is that when they hate, it's animalistic. You can see the fangs bared, the saliva dripping, the froth, the wild eyes. They become inhuman mad dogs at that point.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Like Joe the Plumber identifying with the Koch brothers?

The Koch brothers only make $250K a year?

former law student said...

but teachers in California didn't have collective bargaining rights when the two Steves were in school.

I stand corrected. The Steves' teachers did not get collective bargaining rights until 1975.

damikesc said...

I think a Koch brother mugged me a while ago.

THE LEFT WUZ RIGHT!!!!!!

Lance said...

Eisenhower disliked McCarthy, and was always wary of him. Eisenhower's advisors and political allies warned him to do something about McCarthy, to blunt his rising popularity and influence, but Eisenhower refused. He believed McCarthy's popularity was unsustainable, that McCarthy would ultimately overreach and overstay his welcome on the national stage. Eisenhower was of course proved right, and now McCarthy is used as the archetype for political demagogues and witch hunters.

I don't believe Walker has overreached. As Kaus points out, it's pretty surprising to see Walker and his allies push so hard on an issue that's only recently come to the forefront of politics. But I think with the seriousness of the state's and the nation's fiscal problems, Walker has a good chance of making his case.

roesch-voltaire said...

Ah Trooper you are right; I am a fool just like my democratic socialist relatives in Scandinavia, now excuse me while I get back to making money on the stock market-- tip buy AMD on the dips and sell quickly.

hombre said...

@JohnJ: Is that a Berner?

Marshal said...

"FLS: I had to pay $4 a gallon of gas the other day -- none of that found its way into the Kochs' pockets?"

The Koch's saved FLS from paying 4.50 a gallon, but he's too stupid to be thankful.

JohnJ said...

"Is that a Berner?"

Second of three.

bgates said...

their aggressiveness

Punch back twice as hard.

their self-certainty

I'm LeBron, baby.

their seeming indifference to contrary views

I won. So, I will trump you on that.

Lindstrom said...

I'm disappointed in your weak rebuttal. As a professor of law, I am disappointed that you're borrowing from common conservative tropes about the situation in Wisconsin.

You basically argue that voters can only voice their opinion and influence politics once every 2-4 years at the ballot box. Does this mean we're supposed to sit back and give free reign the rest of the time? Do you think that is how the lobbyist system works in the United States? How does this argument account for referendums and recalls?

I am also incredibly disappointed by your simplistic portrayals of the protesters. How often were you actually there observing? Did you know that organizations such as the TAA had voluntary clean-up crews to try and maintain cleanliness and order in the building? I personally spent four hours picking up trash and sweeping the floors. All signs were hung with painters tape, to make sure we were voicing our opinions carefully.

Whatever happened to respectful discussion and disagreement instead of simplistic hyperbole?

hombre said...

@JohnJ: "Is that a Berner?"

Second of three.


We lost ours in Nov at 12 yrs, 8 mos. They are great dogs!

(Sorry for going off thread, Professor, but Berners are important.)

hombre said...

Lindstrom, apparently @ Althouse: I am also incredibly disappointed by your simplistic portrayals of the protesters. How often were you actually there observing?

How often was she there? You're kidding, right?

PaulV said...

Lindstrom. Althouse shamed the protesters into cleaning up. Only painters tape was used except when other types of tape was used. You protest because AA spoke truth to power.

JohnJ said...

"We lost ours in Nov at 12 yrs, 8 mos. They are great dogs!"

Wow! Almost 13 yrs! Terrific work!

We got one to 11 yrs and another to almost 12. Current dish tipper is almost three.

Apologies again, to everyone.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Yes. Why make direct observations about the characters of singular men such as McCarthy and Scott Walker when you can cast stereotypes upon everyone opposed to them!!!!!111!11!?

Reagan compromised. Sorry you didn't get the memo that's been circulating.

Are you like the slowest person on the internets? I know you see uploading posts as like masturbation to your ego, but maybe stopping and actually reading what's in the news lately might not be a bad idea every now and then. Your big mouth would benefit from even bigger eyes and ears, O Great One.

lskont said...

I'm curious. How many of those of you who have commented on Bill Cronon's op-ed, including Ms. Althouse, live in Wisconsin? How many of you have actually come to Madison to see four yourselves what is going on here? How many of you get your information about what is happening in Wisconsin and why from newspapers, TV news, internet news sources, blogs etc.? I'm very curious.

Marshal said...

Lindstrom defends those calling Walker Hitler by asking "Whatever happened to respectful discussion and disagreement instead of simplistic hyperbole?"

Some people's head's are so far up their ass their self awareness is simply gone.

Libby said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
William said...

McCarthy was a drunk and a demagogue and a lot of the things that the left claimed him to be. He was, however, not a Communist and did not give valuable information to the Soviet Union. It was permissible to be anti-Communist but one had to finely calibrate one's opposition to such subversion. It was also permissible to have been a Communist. The calibration here was not so fine. It was, perhaps, wrong to furnish nuclear secrets to Stalin but all other forms of subversion were to be judged as a form of idealism until proven otherwise. It remains a fact that those NYC schoolteachers who were fired for membership in the Communist party later received much larger cash rewards than those Japanese who were rounded up and interned during WWII. It is worthy of note that we measure political hysteria not by the Japanese internment but by McCarthy's excesses......I'd also like to point out that the conservative senator Robert Taft opposed the internment. And look who didn't get interned. Roosevelt famously said that Italians were just a bunch of opera lovers, and I'm sure it didn't hurt that they were key demographic in several states.

vrussell001 said...

Something about this reminds me of the marriage of Gertrude to Claudius in Hamlet, comparing Walker to Reagan... Really?!! Would Ronald Wilson Reagan have tolerated John Chianelli for an instant?! Uugghhh!!!

vrussell001 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
4743a93e-550b-11e0-9506-000bcdca4d7a said...

"Are you now or have you ever been a supporter of Scott Walker?" That's the most McCarthyist thing to come out of the past month, and it is labor unions and others on the left who are using it to harass businesses and other supporters of Walker. Threatening the economic destruction of people's livelihoods unless they start agreeing with you? That's McCarthyism, and it is Professor Cronon's side that is preaching it.

Apparently academics thought it sounded silly to say Walker is Hitler, so they looked for another villain to compare him to.

Because you hate Scott Walker does not make him hateful, Professor Cronon. That seems to the be the problem on your side of the debate.

Terry Ott said...

History is about recounting the unfolding of events and thought in an ever-evolving world, is it not? Determining the forces behind change, and accounting for events (especially disruptive ones)

Disconcerting when a history professor rejects the notion that what once was viewed as appropriate and justifiable, even wise, may be proven flawed and outmoded in time --- and in the face of accelerating change in the world.

This professor hangs his observations on the notion that it is wrong for citizens and their elected officials to reject what was, and to adopt instead a philosophy and strategy that is right because it is necessary.

I suppose middle-grade historians become stuck in the past; that's so much easier. Top flight thinkers have an appreciation for the past and then attempt to interpret what is going on and why, with reference to the past.

Historians present the full context to the best of their academic abilities. Do the traditions of Wisconsin Democrats include going absentia when faced with tough issues? Do the traditions of Wisconsin Democrats include being held hostage by a special interest group instead of acting on what the voters have said is important to them? Do the traditions of Wisconsin Democrats justify them enacting a huge tax package under cover without hearings and debate? What about THEIR traditions? Didn't see any reference to that.

Give it to us straight up, whole cloth, professor, and then interpret as best you can. Or else spare us your opinions. We all have those, and they are worth little unless drawn from a rigorous analysis of the past leading to the needs and actions of the day.

samadams25 said...

The unions were originally founded for noble purposes. Today they are totally corrupt and in close alliance with every Communist, Socialist, and radical leftist organization in the country.

http://sadhillnews.com/2010/10/03/one-nation-working-together-rally-list-of-sponsors

Joe said...

I'm so sick and tired of reading the opinions of university professors on current union issues and the history of unions when those hypocrites don't admit to the reading public their glaring conflict of interest on the subject.

Every single professor from a public university in Wisconsin belongs to faculty associations that vehemently oppose Governor Walker's policies yet they write opinions as if they are disinterested neutral observers. If I want this kind of opinion I would ask a prostitute what is wrong about the vice squad arresting hookers. Talk about a glaring example of unethical professional behavior.

kerikali said...


It is becoming ever more apparent to me that the left (which I once belonged to) ...


Embarrassing, isn't it?

However: from one recovering libtard to another - take heart! These goons are urinating on their own narrative.

It is becoming increasingly more difficult to sustain the cognitive dissonance.

Don John said...

I am gratified by the number of people who've come to the defense of Joseph McCarthy. Incidentally, the title of that Ann Coulter book is "Treason." In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, they revealed that at least 349 people in the U.S. (many of them identified by McCarthy) had engaged in clandestine activities with Soviet intelligence agencies. Among them were Solomon Adler, Cedric Belfrage, T.A. Bisson, Virginius Frank Coe, Lauchlin Currie (special assistant to FDR!), Harold Glasser, David Karr, Mary Jane Keeney, Philip Keeney, Leonard Mims, Franz Neumann, Allan Rosenberg, Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, and William Ludwig Ullman.

Nearly everything most people THINK they know about McCarthy is wrong: http://www.standingonthedeck.com/uploads/Whom_Do_You_Trust.pdf

Don John said...

I am gratified by the number of people who've come to the defense of Joseph McCarthy. Incidentally, the title of that Ann Coulter book is "Treason."

In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, they revealed that at least 349 people in the U.S. (many of them identified by McCarthy) had engaged in clandestine activities with Soviet intelligence agencies. Among them were Solomon Adler, Cedric Belfrage, T.A. Bisson, Virginius Frank Coe, Lauchlin Currie (special assistant to FDR!), Harold Glasser, David Karr, Mary Jane Keeney, Philip Keeney, Leonard Mims, Franz Neumann, Allan Rosenberg, Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, and William Ludwig Ullman.

Nearly everything most people THINK they know about McCarthy is wrong: http://www.standingonthedeck.com/uploads/Whom_Do_You_Trust.pdf

.

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