March 3, 2011

"Please pardon this brief departure from my normal folderol, but every so often..."

"... a member of the chattering class issues a nugget of stupidity so egregious that no amount of mockery will suffice. Particularly when the issuer of said stupidity holds a Nobel Prize."

The Nobel Prize reference is to Paul Krugman. If you want something about the Obama Nobel Prize, there's this:
Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize.  A lot of his critics didn't think he deserved to win the Nobel Peace Prize, but he's got a shot now at showing the world he does deserve it by what he could be doing in the Middle East and North Africa.  Is he on a track to winning the Nobel Peace Prize again...?  What do you think?

Again?  These guys are taking bets on whether Obama is gearing up to win the Nobel Peace Prize again?  I mean you can arguably say that the world's imploding because of Obama.  The stabilizing force of the world has always been the United States of America, but nobody fears us.  There's no respect or fear of the United States, and he doesn't project any abject respect and love for this country.  These guys are speculating on whether he's qualified to win a second one?

240 comments:

1 – 200 of 240   Newer›   Newest»
former law student said...

I thought conservatives didn't see color. Why is Iowahawk obsessed with race?

shoutingthomas said...

I thought conservatives didn't see color. Why is Iowahawk obsessed with race?

Nice try at avoiding the issue.

And once again, we have the standard tactic... disagree with one issue from the "progressive" agenda, and you're a right winger.

Read the Iowahawk article to discuss how Krugman lied. I won't boil it down for you.

Dose of Sanity said...

I mean you can arguably say that the world's imploding because of Obama. The stabilizing force of the world has always been the United States of America, but nobody fears us. There's no respect or fear of the United States, and he doesn't project any abject respect and love for this country. These guys are speculating on whether he's qualified to win a second one?

What? The world is imploding? AND it's Obama's fault.

Someone better tell the people of Libya, Egypt, and the numerous other countries looking to end a brutal dictatorship and win their freedom they are totally dying for the wrong reason.

Also, if we ever lead by fear, we've done something wrong. Respect, certainly, we should show. Aren't we doing that now?

Does Obama deserve credit for the revolutions in North Africa and the Middle East? Of course not - those belong to the people of those countries. The arrogance of assuming it's our doing (or not doing?) is something else.

Triangle Man said...

Obama needs to give a "tear down this wall" speech so he can be given credit for the fall of dictators.

shoutingthomas said...

Someone better tell the people of Libya, Egypt, and the numerous other countries looking to end a brutal dictatorship and win their freedom they are totally dying for the wrong reason.

OK, I'll tell them.

What you're probably dying for, people of Libya and Egypt, is an Islamic state that will butcher Jews and Christians, enslave women and execute homosexuals.

And, in the long run, those states will probably join in a nuclear-armed enemy facing the U.S.

Good enough for you, Dose of Spoiled Brat?

Joaquin said...

Of course it's Obama's fault.
He came in as the great uniter, got the Noble Prize, showered the world with HOPE AND CHANGE, and not that $hit is hitting the entire global fan he's completely innocent?
You can't have it both ways.

Michael K said...

Given the record of the Peace Prize committee (Norwegian, not Swedish), I wouldn't rule it out.

TWM said...

Frankly the world has been going to shit ever since the United States won the Cold War. I never thought I would look back fondly on those days, but damn it was a much simpler time. One bad guy and a few of his tiny toadies bothering us instead of a gazillion angry radical Muslims buzzing about us just waiting fo that chance to sting us in our ass.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

fls,

Well, why is the "achievement gap" a pressing concern for practically everyone concerned with, or about, education? You're surely not saying it's not there, are you?

I thought Iowahawk's was a bravura performance there. The gist (for those who didn't click through yet) is that you can have students of every ethnicity in State A outperform the students of the same ethnicity in State B, and still have State B in aggregate outperform State A, because the ethnic mix is very different. A is Texas; B is Wisconsin.

Henry said...

I see no reason why Obama can't win another Noble Peace Prize with the exact same qualifications that won him the first one.

Carol_Herman said...

HA! That's funny! After he wins another one, he can win a dozen, know? What's to stop the awards? They can call in the crew who just did the Oscars. Ready made show right there!

While Jimmy Kimmel did a "trailer" to the King's Speech. But it's new. His movie is called "THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH."

It's Mike Tyson. And, Dubya. Speech therapy at its best.

You know, if Obama wins 4 nobels, he's got enough of them, then, to put them on his car, as it keeps coasting downhill.

If Obama wins another one, will we be able to call them "the nobel sisters?"

shoutingthomas said...

Or, to elaborate upon @Michelle Dulak Thomson,

Wisconsin is overwhelmingly white.

Texas is actually, as liberal BS so often says, diverse.

Wisconsin's overall advantage in student test scores is precisely because WI is overwhelmingly white.

Like the Tea Party. But, this makes the Tea Party Nazis.

t-man said...

It's a great "heads I win, tails you lose" life you've got there FLS.

A real "liberal" would be asking, why do minority students perform better in Texas than Wisconsin? Is there something I can learn from Texas that would help close the achievement gap here?

A "partisan" would say, let's distort the data from Texas, and ignore a potentially helpful educational practices (and thereby leave minority kids in inferior schools), because it would hurt my political party.

We now know what you, and Krugman, are.

Henry said...

As far as Krugman goes, these two sentences deserve some parsing:

...but he's got a shot now at showing the world he does deserve it by what he could be doing in the Middle East and North Africa. Is he on a track...

In sentence one, Krugman opines that Obama could be doing something incredibly impressive. And that is a truism. He could be. If George W. Bush pulled a Jimmy Carter and embarked on some personal diplomacy, he could be as well.

In sentence two, Krugman asks if Obama is on track. Well no, Mr. Krugman, not if you refer back to your word could.

Now is Mr. Obama on track to getting to the point where he could do something?

No.

As Dose points out, even if he had a clue, events are beyond his control.

Pastafarian said...

fls, I thought you were more intellectually honest than that.

This analysis clearly shows that Krugman was using misleading statistics to support a pre-ordained result. You can't defend that, so you pull a race card (and a weak one at that.)

And you, a former law student.

former law student said...

This analysis clearly shows that Krugman was using misleading statistics to support a pre-ordained result.

What was misleading about the statistics Krugman used? Why should it have occurred to Krugman to break student performance down by race?

Marshal said...

"And once again, we have the standard tactic... disagree with one issue from the "progressive" agenda, and you're a right winger."

It's that simplistic "you're with us or against us mentality" which is so inappropriate when facing terrorists. It's fine when facing people opposed to government corruption though. Even better better to admit people who think differently about public policy are enemies like Barack Obama and the Democrats do.

Tibore said...

"former law student said...
I thought conservatives didn't see color. Why is Iowahawk obsessed with race?"


Pointing out that students in Texas do better than those in Wisconsin regardless of race is being obsessed with race, huh? I had no idea.

To emphasize the point, a direct quote from the link:
"To recap: white students in Texas perform better than white students in Wisconsin, black students in Texas perform better than black students in Wisconsin, Hispanic students in Texas perform better than Hispanic students in Wisconsin. In 18 separate ethnicity-controlled comparisons, the only one where Wisconsin students performed better than their peers in Texas was 4th grade science for Hispanic students (statistically insignificant), and this was reversed by 8th grade. Further, Texas students exceeded the national average for their ethnic cohort in all 18 comparisons; Wisconsinites were below the national average in 8, above average in 8."

Yep. Breaking down the fact that the issue is independent of racial lines is indeed being "obsessed with race". It's so clear.

Widmerpool said...

Here's the skinny:

The skinny

virgil xenophon said...

Daffy Duck had a phrase for Krugmans delusions: "HA! HA!--IT IS TO LAFF!"

virgil xenophon said...

PS: Forgot: "THAT'S RICH, I'll say!"

shoutingthomas said...

What was misleading about the statistics Krugman used? Why should it have occurred to Krugman to break student performance down by race?

Because Krugman knows that white students always outperform minority students.

And he probably knows the racial composition of Wisconsin vs. Texas.

And because he was one of the jackasses calling the Tea Party racist because they are so white... like the public union workers in Wisconsin.

edutcher said...

I was not aware voting, "Present", was among the criteria for a Nobel Peace Prize.

If so, it explains a lot.

WV "infirsac" Not sure, but J and Jeremy seem awfully obsessed by it.

Dose of Sanity said...

What you're probably dying for, people of Libya and Egypt, is an Islamic state that will butcher Jews and Christians, enslave women and execute homosexuals.

And, in the long run, those states will probably join in a nuclear-armed enemy facing the U.S.

Good enough for you, Dose of Spoiled Brat?


Think before you speak. I have friends there right now, risking their lives. I help them repost and pass on the videos (and sent IP mirrors and proxies). The revolts are secular. Take your racist, ignorant, piece of shit speech else.

Ugh.

slarrow said...

Why should it have occurred to Krugman to break student performance down by race?

Because he was trying to link the status of Texas' children to the policies that Texas follows. To ignore a major competing rationale (namely, the demographics of Texas children) is sloppy--it suggests either laziness or deliberate deception.

Ideally, Krugman et al should be grateful for Iowahawk's piece. Shouldn't serious thinkers be appreciative when they've been caught being sloppy. Isn't that how they improve?

shoutingthomas said...

So, you employ the common bullshit tactics. Scream racism! Not surprising that you're a college student, Dose of Spoiled Brat.

I'll bet you my house these revolts don't end up being "secular."

People often risk their lives in vain.

Egypt and Libya will ultimately land in the laps of the Islamists.

Chip S. said...

But the gap in achievement between whites and blacks in Wisconsin remained one of the largest in the nation. - Journal Sentinel

Why do Wisconsin school teachers do such a lousy job of teaching their minority students?

rocketeer67 said...

What was misleading about the statistics Krugman used? Why should it have occurred to Krugman to break student performance down by race?

Because he's a Nobel Prize-winning economist, FLS. You don't get to be one of those - even a hack one of those - without a thorough knowledge of statistics. Which makes Krugkan's lie deliberate, and therefore more egregious than the lie that he would be perpetuating if it was just an "oopsie" mistake.

But you knew that too, didn't you? How does it feel to be knowungly running interference for a hack liar, FLS?

Tibore said...

And to discuss the other point:

"Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. A lot of his critics didn't think he deserved to win the Nobel Peace Prize, but he's got a shot now at showing the world he does deserve it by what he could be doing in the Middle East and North Africa. Is he on a track to winning the Nobel Peace Prize again...? What do you think?"

I think two things: One, he's definitely not on track at deserving anything right now precisely because he's not doing anything constructive right now in the ME and North Africa. Merely having added your voice to the cacaphony of people calling for Mubarak to step down isn't leadership, it's melting into the crowd. Ditto calling for "sanctions".

So no, he's not on track.

Two: If he somehow gets one anyway, that says more about the degradation of the Nobel Prize than it does anything about the man it was rewarded too. Tell me again about that figure in the Middle East has been given one? No, not the Egyptian who signed the Peace Treaty with Israel, the other one, name of "Arafat"...

I'm a Shaaaaark said...

This is all assuming he was qualified and deserved to win the first one - which was a farce and a joke to begin with.

Plus, the only reason there is a Nobel Prize for Peace anyway was because that old horndog Alfred wanted to keep getting laid, so...

Lincolntf said...

So after all this we find out Wisconsin Teachers are lousy at their jobs. Gee, they looked so professional on the drum line.

former law student said...

For the race-conscious Iowahawk, dropout data from the Annie E. Casey Foundation's Kids Count:

Teens age 16 to 19 not attending school and not working:

TX WI
7% 5% Non-Hispanic whites
13% 11% Blacks
12% 9% Hispanics
10% 6% Total

http://datacenter.kidscount.org
/data/acrossstates
/Rankings.aspx?ind=5065

Scott M said...

The revolts are secular.

Very possibly and I'm even inclined to believe that in the aggregate. What revolts create, though, are power vacuums.

EDH said...

A perfect metaphor for the Obama Administration.

Talking about whether Obama will deserve to receive a second Nobel Peace Prize when he still owes us for his first.

Fen said...

I thought conservatives didn't see color. Why is Iowahawk obsessed with race?

In this case, because Obama is the archetypal Diversity Hire - unqualified for the position, hired primarily because of his skin color, cant' handle the workload, grows frustrated and then angry, blames everyone but himself for his failures.

Dose of Sanity said...

So, you employ the common bullshit tactics. Scream racism! Not surprising that you're a college student, Dose of Spoiled Brat.

I'll bet you my house these revolts don't end up being "secular."

People often risk their lives in vain.

Egypt and Libya will ultimately land in the laps of the Islamists.


It IS racism. You assume there are literally no people there capable of anything other being "Islamists". I'm not a "college student" as I've mentioned before.

I'll take your bet, as long as you clarify what you mean by "Laps of islamists" first. Is it the majority of the country going to be muslims? Yes, of course. That's their religion. We're "in the laps of the christians" by the same token.

Will they impose laws that cause "the death of homosexuals and women"? No. Will they have a secular government? Yes.

If you want to bet against those statements, you are on.

PETER V. BELLA said...

Let's see. Obama did nothing to win the Peace prize the first time. He is doing nothing about the Middle East. Bingo!

rocketeer67 said...

So, 1) FLS covers for purposefully lying hacks, and 2) FLS doesn't care about minority students underperforming their potential.

Got it, buddy!

Dose of Sanity said...

Very possibly and I'm even inclined to believe that in the aggregate. What revolts create, though, are power vacuums.

Absolutely true - there is always a danger. (Egypt being the exception, the military filled that vacuum already)

In other countries, this is a danger. However, people of the region are extremely aware of this - they saw it happen in 1979 in Iran.

Chip S. said...

[Stanford Professor Caroline] Hoxby found that students who attended a charter school from kindergarten to eighth grade would nearly match the performance of their peers in affluent suburban communities on state math exams by the time they entered high school, a phenomenon she characterizes as closing the “Harlem-Scarsdale” achievement gap.-New York Times

If you oppose charter schools, you might be a racist.

Fen said...

Libyans are actaully calling on George Bush to create a no-fly zone. Even they know Obama is an empty suit.

rhhardin said...

Obama deserves a Nobel Prize in economics for counterexamples.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@ChipS

"Why do Wisconsin school teachers do such a lousy job of teaching their minority students?"

That's not it...

Statistics show the black family lagging in terms of staying together. This hurts student achievement.

My wife is an early education teacher in the inner city. She can tell you about the higher percentage of black kids that come to school unable to read at all (or, those that are not even potty trained). This starts in the home.

So I think this 'phenomenon' of lagging black achievement is related to the implosion of their family structure.

https://www.msu.edu/user/lindeenc/ead801.htm

kent said...

How does it feel to be knowingly running interference for a hack liar, FLS?

All he need do is substitute "Krugman" for "Obama" in any given post, really. Comme ci, comme ca.

Fen said...

Can any Oabama fans here explain exactly what Obama did to earn the first Nobel Peace Prize?

Keep in mind that he was nominated before he even assumed the office of President.

DHOTUS
Diversity Hire Of The United States

Scott M said...

Egypt being the exception, the military filled that vacuum already

Only half-correct. They put a plug in the hole to prevent a complete vacuum. There is still a very real risk of the military being co-opted. I served with as many Egyptians as I did Saudis. Very little difference in either the enlisted or the officers (except the Saudis tend to be less funny and more stoic in general).

There's no special Egyptian anti-Islamic fundamentalist armor in the game, unfortunately.

Chip S. said...

@Don't Tread, If FLS had actually read Iowahawk's post instead of flinging his cheap race-card shit, he'd have known that your point is Iowahawk's point. But it's easy fun to just throw nasty insinuations around, as I've learned from my moral superiors on the left.

Dose of Sanity said...

Can any Oabama fans here explain exactly what Obama did to earn the first Nobel Peace Prize?

Keep in mind that he was nominated before he even assumed the office of President.

DHOTUS
Diversity Hire Of The United States


This will be from memory, but here goes.

1. Obama himself was surprised he was given the prize.
2. The stated reason was basically for his "hope and change" and his transcendent attitude. (Rightly or wrongly). The organization that rewarded him basically did it as a challenge to him. i.e. You've shown us you speak the way someone does who can bring great, peaceful change - can you walk the walk?

imho - Not yet.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@fen

"Can any Oabama fans here explain exactly what Obama did to earn the first Nobel Peace Prize? "

Cue crickets.

shoutingthomas said...

It IS racism. You assume there are literally no people there capable of anything other being "Islamists". I'm not a "college student" as I've mentioned before.

Oh, fuck you and your racism up the ass, you lowlife bastard. If I were in the same room with you, I'd kick you in the nuts. You've got it coming.

I didn't say, moron, that there are literally no people there capable of anything other being "Islamists".

I said that Egypt and Libya will end up as Islamist states. Egypt and Libya already execute Christians, even in their benign dictatorial states. Libya doesn't have any Jews left, having driven them all out of the country.

What is it you are wagering in return?

Can I cut your nuts off? Do you have any?

Browndog said...

"The Nobel Peace Prize" is so yesterday.

The first "Obama Peace Prize" should be awarded to it's namesake.

Progress......

After all, isn't the current criteria for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize the determination of who is most "Obama-like"?

AJ Lynch said...

FLS:

God forbid Paul Krugman actually dig in, drill down and analyze the data right? Cause old Mr. Krugman knows all the answers without doing that!

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


Egypt being the exception, the military filled that vacuum already



Just like Shapour Bakhtiar and Kerneski’I filled the vacuum left by the Shah and the Tsar…I hope not but I fear so….

Drew said...

Re: Krugman, he hasn't yet learned that Correlation does not equal Causation. He's too convinced of his own smartness to understand he's fallen prey to a common logical fallacy.

Re: CNN wondering about Obama getting a second Nobel . . . Just when I think the cognitive dissonance of the left can't get worse, it does.

Where are the serious-minded people these days? Do they exist?

Fen said...

The stated reason was basically for his "hope and change" and his transcendent attitude. (Rightly or wrongly). The organization that rewarded him basically did it as a challenge to him. i.e. You've shown us you speak the way someone does who can bring great, peaceful change - can you walk the walk?

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Dose of Sanity said...

Only half-correct. They put a plug in the hole to prevent a complete vacuum. There is still a very real risk of the military being co-opted. I served with as many Egyptians as I did Saudis. Very little difference in either the enlisted or the officers (except the Saudis tend to be less funny and more stoic in general).

There's no special Egyptian anti-Islamic fundamentalist armor in the game, unfortunately.


I'd have to disagree a bit. They already had most of the power in the country. My opinion would be that the danger from them comes from them setting up a new dictator and trying to keep that power.

The army has strong ties to 40% of the business in the country. It's a pretty good shield against "Islamic" control. (God, I wish there was a better term so we could stop convoluting the religion and the crazies)

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@ChipS

"@Don't Tread, If FLS had actually read Iowahawk's post instead of flinging his cheap race-card shit, he'd have known that your point is Iowahawk's point. But it's easy fun to just throw nasty insinuations around, as I've learned from my moral superiors on the left."

Yes. And being married to someone in education gives you a unique insight. Believe me, I do feel for the kids. They often come to school with not a clue. 4 and 5 year olds in pull-ups (diaper-like disposable underpants).

Liberals - advancing the narrative with absolutely no demonstrable beneficial results for over 100 years.

Scott M said...

1. Obama himself was surprised he was given the prize.

He should have, with all honesty and integrity, not accepted the reward. If he had, I would have mountains more respect for him...which would get me back to sea level. He's proving himself to be somewhat of an empty suit on foreign policy and, so far, seems to have real trouble keeping his administration all pointing the same direction.

shoutingthomas said...

(God, I wish there was a better term so we could stop convoluting the religion and the crazies)

There is no difference between the religion and the crazies.

You really are full of shit, aren't you?

Dose of Sanity said...

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Yes.

Considering how many other people have done so much...

PaulV said...

maybe the dude who got Gaddafi to give up his WMDs should get the Peace Prize?

Lincolntf said...

Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama. Bill Clinton will get one some day. Anyone who is seen as the face of the Left gets one eventually. Those years it's a worthless trinket.

Dose of Sanity said...

There is no difference between the religion and the crazies.

You really are full of shit, aren't you?


Ah, the racism returns.

You should read the koran, make friends with a muslim. Do something to try and crack your ignorant fortress open.

Bob_R said...

After reading Iowahawk's post I looked at the numbers from Virginia - another of those poor, neglected states where teachers are not allowed to bargain collectively. I only looked at white vs. black, VA vs. Wisconsin. Guess what. Wisconsin is worse in every category except for a tie in eighth grade math. Many of the differences are statistically insignificant, but they all go Virginia's way. The black vs. white gap is far larger in every category - an average of 1.5 times as large.

I don't claim that this proves that Virginia's nonunionized teachers are better than Wisconsin's unionized teachers, but Krugman would seem to believe it is valid evidence.

Econophile said...

former law student said:

What was misleading about the statistics Krugman used?

Everything is misleading, and Krugman very well knows it is.

If you're trying to look at the effect of unions on educational outcomes, you have to control for everything. Standard, very basic econometrics. Otherwise you're looking at meaningless correlations. Anyone bothering to take a mere week's worth of econometrics, which Krugman ostensibly did, would know this.

Krugman's pieces are popular among lefties because he's able to give them a false sense of comfort about a twisted worldview. He's depending on their complete ignorance on economics along with a desperate need to feel in the know without doing any work. He's not been a serious economist for a decade and I've no idea how he can live with this level of intellectual dishonesty.

shoutingthomas said...

You should read the koran, make friends with a muslim. Do something to try and crack your ignorant fortress open.

Oh, go fuck yourself, you lowlife scumbag.

Drown yourself in the toilet.

Dose of Sanity said...

Oh, go fuck yourself, you lowlife scumbag.

Drown yourself in the toilet.


U mad?

former law student said...

Which makes Krugkan's lie deliberate

Iowahawk analyzed different data in a different way -- and that makes Krugman a liar?

I give up.

Alex said...

Just give Obama every Nobel Peace Prize for the next 20 years. That will make the liberals jizz continuously.

shoutingthomas said...

U mad?

Nah, just tired of assholes like you.

I'm looking forward to the day when your kind of behavior, when enacted in public, earns you a broken jaw.

The sanctimonious asshole act of leftists has really run out of gas.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Dose

"You should read the koran, make friends with a muslim. Do something to try and crack your ignorant fortress open."

Read the koran? Really? Thats just fucking silly.

FYI, my neighbor that lives behind me is a Pakistani muslim. We have discussed muslim and christian differences many times. I help him with chores in his yard because he is older and a small man/physically unimposing. We often speak frankly about our world.

His answer to my question about radicalized islam is basically one of disbelief; he claims those people are just plain crazy. Is he a racist? No, he's not. Do I think he's radicalized? No. Do we both need to read the other guy's religious book to understand each other? No!

rocketeer67 said...

Ah, the racism returns.

You should read the koran, make friends with a muslim. Do something to try and crack your ignorant fortress open.


Not supporting ST's blanket generalizations, and sorry to be a pedant, but you can't be "racist" against a religion. Unless you presume there are no "muslims of pallor." Which would, ironically, be racist.

Chip S. said...

@fls, Actually, it's Krugman who analyzed the data in a "different" way. "Different" as in the way intermarryin' kin might have some offspring who're, y'know, different.

Henry said...

What was misleading about the statistics Krugman used? Why should it have occurred to Krugman to break student performance down by race?

I'm sure that Krugman knows about basic statistics fallacies. Krugman just chooses to jettison that knowledge when he writes for the readers of the New York Times.

That doesn't say much for him or his readership.

edutcher said...

Dose of Sanity said...

There is no difference between the religion and the crazies.

You really are full of shit, aren't you?


Ah, the racism returns.


It does? And where does shout (with whom I barely agree here) invoke anyone's race?

Dose of Salts is going to the well way too often.

shoutingthomas said...

I worked on a contract assignment recently with four Indian and Pakistani programmers.

Two of them were Muslims.

Although they were nice people, the Muslims believed that any woman who sleeps with more than one man in her life is a dirty whore. (Actually, the Hindus believe the same.)

I didn't want to find out much more about what they thought should be done to such a woman.

Alex said...

st - the librulz really have a lot of power with the racism-card. They get people fired, shunned and otherwise harmed in society. It's about time this was reversed.

rocketeer67 said...

Iowahawk analyzed different data in a different way -- and that makes Krugman a liar?

I give up.


You'd save embarrassing yourself if you would.

Krugman analyzed nothing.

He threw a stat out there that he knew was meanigless and shallow, and tried to spin it such that it appeared to have deep import. He's a hack. So are you.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Don't Tread - that's exactly what I want that idiot to do. Talk to a muslim and realize they are people. Since I doubt he will interact with the "jihadists", I suggested the alternative. Learn about the religion. Sorry if I mad that seem like a requirement.

@ Rocketeer - Will played, you are correct. The same sentiment still applies - I'm at a loss for a good term to use to describe someone like ST.

Marshal said...

So DOS now believes that while there is a chance Islamists can end up in power, others are nevertheless racist for predicting it.

What a fucking asshole.

Alex said...

In DOS' world you're a racist if you even look at black/Muslim/whatever in the wrong way. In fact you should be sent to a death camp for even daring to debate it!

Dose of Sanity said...

Although they were nice people, the Muslims believed that any woman who sleeps with more than one man in her life is a dirty whore. (Actually, the Hindus believe the same.)

Don't Christians believe this as well?

Scott M said...

They get people fired, shunned and otherwise harmed in society.

They get NASCAR teams.

shoutingthomas said...

Don't Christians believe this as well?

No, you stupid bastard.

There is no Christian country on earth where women are being stoned to death for adultery.

And you know it, asshole.

Alex said...

DOS - Christians don't throw acid on a woman's face for being a "dirty whore".

Leland said...

Why breakdown ethnicity in education? Perhaps because many of those 30% hispanics had their pre-K education in another language in another country. Also, many drops out are heading back to their country, because with a poor US economy and a better education than most Mexicans; there is more opportunity to head home. Indeed, that's one of the so called goals of liberal education and open borders, right? Improve standard of living on both sides?

kent said...

Iowahawk analyzed different data in a different way -- and that makes Krugman a liar?

I give up.


Good call. You're just wasting perfectly good straw at this point, anyway.

Shanna said...

Will they impose laws that cause "the death of homosexuals and women"? No. Will they have a secular government? Yes.

You don't know that. I think at this point it could go either way. Certainly we can hope that you are correct, but wishing doesn't make it so.

Dose of Sanity said...

So DOS now believes that while there is a chance Islamists can end up in power, others are nevertheless racist for predicting it.

What a fucking asshole.


I strongly believe that there is almost no chance that will happen. I'd bet my life on it. I've put my reasons in prior posts.

I just hate ignorant assholes. I'll defend Islam - or any other religion or people - against bullshit any day, any time, any place.

Alex said...

But this moral equivalence between Christianity and backward eastern religions is PAR for the course in today's "ethnic studies" classrooms. In fact being a conservative on campus is almost a social death sentence.

Scott M said...

Don't Christians believe this as well?

A whore is a sinner, but a sinner isn't necessarily a whore...so no.

Alex said...

DOS - Islam is bullsht root & branch and you defend it. Nice to know you wallow in filth.

rocketeer67 said...

Don't Christians believe this as well?

Yes, but please see John 8:1-11.

I have read the Quran, DOS, several times. Perhaps it's just my copy, but I can't seem to find a similar story of forgiveness and message of self-reflection.

Dose of Sanity said...

No, you stupid bastard.

There is no Christian country on earth where women are being stoned to death for adultery.

And you know it, asshole.


*cough Africa cough cough*

Or do they not count as Christians?

Also, you avoided my argument by discussing a not widely used practice in response. And YOU know it, asshole.

Fen said...

Dose, Africa is a continent, not a country. You want to be more specific?

shoutingthomas said...

Also, you avoided my argument by discussing a not widely used practice in response. And YOU know it, asshole.

Dose of Stupid Bastard, you are really a treat.

Are you aware that 90% of Egyptian women have had their clitorises cut off with a razor?

Egypt is virtually a clitoris-free zone.

You are an incredibly stupid fuck.

rocketeer67 said...

*cough Africa cough cough*

Again, pedant, apologies, etc., but -

you do realize Africa is not a country, correct?

You certainly are sloppy with your language, DOS. It would help your arguments if you would tighten it up a bit, my man.

Marshal said...

DOS,

I'm not sure why I have to explain this, but believing in different likelihoods of possible outcomes to an event which hasn't occurred yet doesn't make one a racist.

And if you hate assholes so much, stop being one.

Michael said...

FLS: Dude, you do not want to go down the racial performance road. Don't.

Revenant said...

Interesting article.

Hoosier Daddy said...

*cough Africa cough cough*

Or do they not count as Christians?


I was unaware of any African nation that was a theocratic Christian state or adopted Mosaic law as the law of the land.

kent said...

*cough Africa cough cough*

The "country" of Africa...?

*cough* geographical illiterate *cough*cough*

Chip S. said...

BTW fls, Your attempt to critique Iowahawk's analysis with drop-out data for 16-19 year-olds proves nothing except that you're either a Krugmanite when it comes to empirical "analysis" or you are attacking a post that you did not read.

Iowahawk's test scores are from the NAEP, for 4th and 8th graders. Just because you may still have been in 8th grade at age 16 doesn't mean that anyone else is.

And if your dropout data show anything relevant, it's that Texas schools are dealing with even less motivated students than their beleaguered Wisconsin counterparts.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Rocketeer

Keeping my own my toes. Was using the continent to cite multiple examples within it. Thanks for keeping me sharp. I'm trying to keep up with 4-5 people responding, I apologize that I've sacrificed precision for speed.

LarsPorsena said...

"...I strongly believe that there is almost no chance that will happen. I'd bet my life on it. I've put my reasons in prior posts. ..."

King Farouk -> Nasser
King Sidris -> Qaddaffi
Shah of Iran -> The Ayatollahs

I hope you are right DOS but like other posters I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Moderates do not make revolutions.

Dose of Sanity said...

What you're probably dying for, people of Libya and Egypt, is an Islamic state that will butcher Jews and Christians, enslave women and execute homosexuals.

@ Marshall - this is the comment that set me off. Badly. This is beyond "believing in outcomes".

traditionalguy said...

Of course Obama won his Peace Prize for sending out signals that he was going to castrate the economic/military might behind Pax Americana so that peace could break out once America's bad ally Israel has been slaughtered. Once more the world is revolving around the middle eastern nations who are being suddenly drawn into a showdown attack on the small Jewish population that escaped murder back in 1945 thanks to America's military might. Remember we recently heard Farrakhan reminding Obama that any defense Israel against the coming attack on Jerusalem is against the UN's interests in the peace that the UN has planned.

Raul said...

The Queen - Teabagger drivel.

Dose of Sanity said...

King Farouk -> Nasser
King Sidris -> Qaddaffi
Shah of Iran -> The Ayatollahs

I hope you are right DOS but like other posters I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Moderates do not make revolutions.


Actually - this is a reason I cited why it won't happen. The people of the region are very familiar with that history - they are taking steps to guard against it.

edutcher said...

FWIW, male circumcision is every bit as primitive, when practiced in the Islamic world as female circumcision.

Dose of Sanity said...

I strongly believe that there is almost no chance that will happen. I'd bet my life on it.

He doesn't get it, but that's already happened.

I just hate ignorant assholes. I'll defend Islam - or any other religion or people

Dose of Salts will defend any religion he thinks is as anti-American as he is.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Frankly the world has been going to shit ever since the United States won the Cold War. I never thought I would look back fondly on those days, but damn it was a much simpler time.

M: I give the man double O status and he celebrates it by shooting up an embassy. Is the man deranged? And where the hell is he? In the old days if an agent did something that embarrassing he’d have the good sense to defect. Christ I miss the Cold War.

Casino Royale, 2006

Martin Gale said...

The comparison between Texas and Wisconsin is even more devastating when you factor in per pupil education costs. Taking just one NAEP assessment category, black 8th grade math scores as an example, we find that Texas, which ranks 33rd in per pupil costs, ranks 2nd in black 8th grade math scores, while Wisconsin (10th in cost) ranks 41st in performance. But to fully appreciate where the liberal’s “money’s no object” educational policies lead, consider DC: 1st in per pupil costs, while 47th in black 8th grader math performance. Meanwhile, the chevy volt goes a good 25 miles before needing a recharge. Also, have those Minnesota windmills unfrozen yet, or do we have to wait until April? Oh, the humanity!

Sofa King said...

You assume there are literally no people there capable of anything other being "Islamists".

No, he just assumes that they are not as ruthless as the Islamists, which is probably true.

Henry said...

@FLS -- It's not racist to break down statistics by demographics. It's racist to assume that race is a causal factor for an argument without evidence. You might observe that Iowahawk points out that while race/ethnicity is significant, it is not causal:

"I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism. And yes, family structure. Whatever combination of reasons, the gap exists..."

Krugman, on the other hand, leaps to a causal conclusion with no evidence of reflection. You could substitute climate for collective bargaining in Krugman's analysis and determine that what makes students smarter is snow.

Krugman avoids even thinking about race and ethnicity. Good for him. He's not racist. He's just stupid.

Shanna said...

A whore is a sinner, but a sinner isn't necessarily a whore...so no.

Indeed. Not to mention the whole "all have sinned" bit and the fact that there is a whole story in the bible about letting "he is without sin cast the first stone".

shoutingthomas said...

@ Marshall - this is the comment that set me off. Badly. This is beyond "believing in outcomes".

As I said, those atrocities I described are all currently the norm in Egypt and Libya

1. Christians are routinely massed murdered in Egypt.

2. Jews have simply been run out of Libya.

3. Women are routinely subjected to genital mutilation in Egypt and Libya.

4. Homosexuals risk their lives by being out in the open in Eqypt or Libya.

I'm not exactly engaged in abstract speculation here.

LarsPorsena said...

"..The people of the region are very familiar with that history - they are taking steps to guard against it..."

Those "steps" being?

Fen said...

"What you're probably dying for, people of Libya and Egypt, is an Islamic state that will butcher Jews and Christians, enslave women and execute homosexuals."

Dose @ Marshall - this is the comment that set me off. Badly. This is beyond "believing in outcomes".

Why did it set you off? Its the most likely outcome. Did you see the polling data from those countries? While they may not want the Muslim Brotherhood in charge, they do approve of those things.

rocketeer67 said...

Keeping my own my toes. Was using the continent to cite multiple examples within it.

Uh, DOS, all due respect, but even allowing for that...

there are not multiple examples of majority Christian nations in Africa that stone woman for fornication. In fact, there is not ONE.


WV: fiescoo. DOS, we disagree on much - but you are clearly smart. I'm trying to save you from a commenting fiescoo.

Dose of Sanity said...

Dose of Stupid Bastard, you are really a treat.

Are you aware that 90% of Egyptian women have had their clitorises cut off with a razor?


This is an absolutely terrible practice that needs to be addressed
So. Wait. I'm confused. This a practice under the secular Egyptian government. How does bringing that up help your argument?

And it's also prohibited under Islam.

I'm a Shaaaaark said...

*cough Africa cough cough*

There may be christian countries in the continent of Africa where this is occurring, but I would be willing to bet it is being done in Muslim-dominant areas of those christian countries on the continent of Africa.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)






And DOS when you get around to those “African” episodes, you’re going to discover that 95% of the stoning and executions for witchcraft occurred in either Muslim countries or Muslim areas of polyglot African nations…..

Is “Islam” violent…is “Christianity”? One can look at THEORY or HISTORY and draw varying conclusions…Historically both have been violent, theoretically both can be seen as advocating violence OR coexistence…but RECENT history suggests that Muslims, not Christians, are the most dangerous purveyors of violence. What it says about “Islam” is up to Allah to decide, but what it says about Muslims, isn’t particularly good….Are 90% of all Muslims, “OK;” sure…but that violent 1-2% and their enablers amongst the other 8-9% have been the source of much misery, recently.

hombre said...

Regarding Oblahblah's impending second Nobel Peace Prize . . ..

Marshal said...

DOS,

Egypt has a history of most of those events without a an Islamist government. Other Arab governments have a history of all of them. When these events occur it is often at the hands of the Islamists.

First, why is it wrong to suppose an Egyptian Islamist government would show characteristics of Arab Islamists? Second, how is being wrong in such a prediction racist?

ricpic said...

It's all about getting whitey for Hussein. In foreign policy Israel is the stand-in for whitey. He was gungho for Mubarak's overthrow because endgame is to have Israel surrounded on all sides by his fellow Muslim Brotherhood hoods. Well, not exactly endgame. Endgame is annihilation of Israel in a glorious bloodbath. Then there will be no more mountains to climb for The Prince of Resentment and Revenge.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


And it's also prohibited under Islam.



REALLY, where, what Shura? And would you care to point out where Ar-Azhar has published a paper demonstrating this and promoting the idea? Because it IS quite prevalent amongst the Muslim…I guess they just haven’t gotten the word, yet.

It might be better to say, it is a practice that PRE-DATES Islam, which Islam is agnostic upon……

James said...

Walker is applying the squeeze...
arrest warrants to be issued if they don't return by 4 p.m.

Capitol Chaos: Senate Moves To Bring 'Wisconsin 14' Back, Possibly By Force

MADISON - The Wisconsin State Senate has approved a resolution that would set a deadline of 4:00 p.m. Thursday for Wisconsin's 14 Democratic state senators to return to Senate chambers.

If they do not, they would be held guilty in contempt of the Senate, and guilty of disorderly conduct.

TODAY"S TMJ4's Mick Trevey says law enforcement could go out with a warrant and detain them.

According to Trevey, senators could be picked up, held against their will, chained and brought back to Senate chambers to vote on Governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill.

hombre said...

Oh. Maybe there is a dose for Dose as well in that link. (12:00 pm)

AllenS said...

I remember fls showing up a little while ago and claiming that white men were eventually going to be in the minority. Then I had to inform him that they have always been in the minority. There has always been more white women than white men. He was probably trying to stir up some kind of racial crap.

fls has shit for brains.

Dose of Sanity said...


1. Christians are routinely massed murdered in Egypt.


They have a 10% Christian population. What are you talking about?

rocketeer67 said...

And it's also prohibited under Islam.

Really? Prohibited?

http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask.pl?q=1239&act=view

You no doubt know there is no centralized body in Islam that issues encyclicals.

And you actually have it backwards. In fact, it was outlawed in Egypt by the secular government in 2007, but continued anyway in the muslim community.

You do yourself no favors by making making assertions that are not true.

Henry said...

So. Wait. I'm confused. This a practice under the secular Egyptian government.

Mubarak banned the practice in 2007. His wife has lead a public campaign against it.

That doesn't mean it stopped.

Dose of Sanity said...


1. Christians are routinely massed murdered in Egypt.


They have a 10% Christian population. What are you talking about?

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Henry.

That was my point.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


They have a 10% Christian population. What are you talking about?



Yeah it’s been under assault and under official discrimination, even by a “secular” government….

shoutingthomas said...

Here's a fairly standard story out of Egypt of the slaughter of Christians by Islamists.

Happens with great frequency.

PaulV said...

Article is evidence that Krugman's wife writes those articles, unless you think Krugman is that stupid.
1/3 of Koran makes no sense according to scholars.

Dose of Sanity said...

The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa, said that it is "Prohibited, prohibited, prohibited.

rocketeer67 said...

@ Henry.

That was my point.


Well then, DOS, it was a pointless point.

Why did it continue? What community in Egypt is it continuing in?

PaulV said...

Military has run Egypt for almost 60 years. Best likelyhood is that they will continue to run it.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Rocketeer

ST cited the practice as a reason to stop the islamic government. My point is citing an abhorrent cultural practice is worthless in that debate.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)




Two little pieces of demographic information DoS…
1) In 1952 Copts made up ~20% of Egypt’s populace…IF today, they are 10% I’d submit that is prima facie evidence of discrimination/genocide/emigration…..
2) There are almost NO Jews left in nation close to the Middle East. Muslims have driven them out…
Kind puts the “tolerance” of Muslims, if not Islam into perspective, if you ask me.

Hoosier Daddy said...

@ Marshall - this is the comment that set me off. Badly. This is beyond "believing in outcomes".

Yesteday the only Christian Pakistani Minister was assasinated by Islamic extremists. He was a vocal opponent of blasphemy laws which lead to the death penalty.

You may believe its 'believing in outcomes' but it may simply be 'seeing a trend'.

Its too early to tell what is going to occur in those countries but I'm not holding my breath for some Jeffersonian model of a free republic. All too often the kicking out the incumbant tyrant just means the replacement of another. History is replete with examples.

Dose of Sanity said...

Here's a fairly standard story out of Egypt of the slaughter of Christians by Islamists.

Happens with great frequency.


I love that you cited this. And that you made up a "this happens frequently" bullshit too. This attack is widely believed to have been stirred up by Mubarak in order to hold onto power. Protesters (Christian and Muslim alike) in Tahrir Square all referenced this.

Perhaps you missed when the christians guarded muslims during their daily prayers and vice versa?

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa, said that it is "Prohibited, prohibited, prohibited.

*WOW* and when it stops, give me a call, will you?

Dose of Sanity said...

In 1952 Copts made up ~20% of Egypt’s populace…IF today, they are 10% I’d submit that is prima facie evidence of discrimination/genocide/emigration…..

Prima facie case? Or an absolute failure to understand percentages? hahaha.


As an aside - Copts are a facisnating people. I studied them in college.

Dose of Sanity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)




Of COURSE, Mubarak did it….save it occurred PRIOR to the rebellion…or at least one attack did.

Dose of Sanity said...

Of COURSE, Mubarak did it….save it occurred PRIOR to the rebellion…or at least one attack did.

Err, the rebellions started Jan 28th. This article is from Feb. 3. Also, the article CITES the rebellions as the cover.

Bob From Ohio said...

Dose, I don't know enough about Libya to say but the literacy and poverty levels in Egypt mean that elections will be dominated, not by your friends, but by the poor, barely educated masses. The Westernized classes are just too small to win a mass election.

Its not racism to say that poor, barely educated people will tend to vote as the local leaders say.

The relevant local leaders are imans who are not going to support Westernized parties, certainly not secular ones.

For example, the "spiritual leader" of the Muslim Brotherhood just came back and gave a big sermon. That Google exec tried to speak also but was prevented.

That is a foreshadow of what will happen to the secular elements. The more ruthless extreme religious elements will use coercion of varying degrees to force the secularists out.

You are "wishcasting". The chance of a secular government taking over long term in Egypt is very, very small.

madawaskan said...

All of those states save Virginia have significantly more residents living below the poverty level when compared to Wisconsin.

According to the 2008 census about 10.5% of the residents of Wisconsin live below poverty.

Georgia-14.7%

North Carolina-14.6%

South Carolina-15.7%

Texas-15.8%

But never, ever question the Krugman.

Now one state is left and one state does not a trend make but since Krugman would run with it-

Think there might be a language gap when comparing Virginia to Wisconsin?

Well I'll be damned-

Virginia-11.1% speak a second language

Wisconsin-7.3%

Texas 31.2%

But again never, ever question the Krugman and his "selective" and narrow look at his tiny facts.

Hoosier Daddy said...

It IS racism. You assume there are literally no people there capable of anything other being "Islamists".

Not to belabor this issue but I am really tired of Islam being referred to as a 'race' and any critique of the religion or its followers as racism.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


Prima facie case? Or an absolute failure to understand percentages? hahaha.

No prima facie. I understand statistics, there are alternate explanations, prima facie means the case and evidence stand on their own, and would need rebuttal…I await yours…I have counter-rebuttals, waiting….

In 1952 1 in 5 Egyptians were Copts, now only 1 in 10, I’d say that is evidence of genocide/discrimination/emigration…and you’re pathetic response suggests you agree with me, but don’t care to “engage.” Not “engage” a word from last night…I’m willing to engage you and demonstrate the falsity of your claims, YOU have to be willing to honestly engage and defend them…your current position is one of evasion and avoidance.

Thank you for contributing and offering us all the opportunity to engage you

MikeR said...

Wow, great post by Iowahawk. He's always been incredibly funny, but this is a whole new side of him.
Unless someone will answer, this was a completely convincing rejoinder to Krugman.

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


.

The Egyptian Coptic Christians celebrated Christmas on January 7, 2010, but this year’s Christmas celebration was met with terrorist gunfire and murder


Thank you for contributing, though.

kent said...

senators could be picked up, held against their will, chained

My nipples could cut glass, right about now. ;)

chickelit said...

POTUS needs to quaff more potable mead.

garage mahal said...


My nipples could cut glass, right about now. ;)


As are all little fascist nipples everywhere. Another brutal poll out today though - Rasmussen even - that show majority of Wisc sides with AWOL Dems, and collective bargaining rights, and Dems overall against Walker. Sadz.

Trooper York said...

I personally think Barry should win an Emmy because he is on the TV more than Oprah, the Sham Wow guy and the Cracker Factory Nut Job combined.

He even had to fuck up the Super Bowl.

He needs an Emmy.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


As are all little fascist nipples everywhere.

Excellent Smithers. To recap we have called our opponents “Racists” and “Fascists” today, pretty much par for the course. Garage you’re heading towards Ritmo land, at that rate……

Maguro said...

Iowahawk is 100% right, comparing state educational results without adjusting for demographics is worse than useless, it's downright misleading. Probably intentionally so, considering the source...I doubt Krugman is really that stupid.

madawaskan said...

James

Thanks for that link:


His colleague, Milwaukee Democratic Senator Chris Larson tweeted, "Senate Republicans have officially gone 'round the bend. Next up, dropping puppies from the top of the Capitol onto protesters.

Oh gawd not the puppy drop!!1!

kent said...

As are all little fascist nipples everywhere.

Nipples can be "fascist?" Really and truly, they can -- ?!?

"Sadz," indeed. ROTFLMAO!!!

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kent said...

There gonna drop puppies on de protesters!!!1!

"FASCIST NIPPLES -- !!!11!!"
/garage

chickelit said...

@garage: A majority favor the state going broke and the layoffs then?

Lincolntf said...

When they came for the nipples, I did nothing because I was not a nipple...

Triangle Man said...

@Garage

You forgot the part where 71% of Americans view Charlie Sheen unfavorably.

Triangle Man said...

Rasmussen also says that 65% of those polled think State workers are paid about right or too little (49% and 16% respectively).

JAL said...

I heard this yesterday from Hubby.

I thought he, an internet naif, confused the Onion with the News.

He couldn't remember who ....

Now it all makes makes sense.

Well, not that Krugman makes sense, but you know what I mean.

wv lograise
An Illinois Amish house raising

kent said...

When they came for the nipples, I did nothing because I was not a nipple...

My nipples, being fascist, want to make the high-speed choo-choos run on time.

You'd think that'd practically make garage cream himself, wouldn't you...?

madawaskan said...

Crap he must have deleted that tweet because I'm not finding it.

Triangle Man said...

A majority favor the state going broke and the layoffs then?

@chickelit

A majority favor pay cuts for State workers.

garage mahal said...

@garage: A majority favor the state going broke and the layoffs then?

False choices. It looks like Wisconsin ain't buying it either.

kent said...

Government e-mails reveal plot to stall [Madison] budget repair bill

Oh, my.

madawaskan said...

Seriously how many of the Rasmussen respondents get what collective bargaining rights means...

Basically that any agreements on pension contributions and the like would be temporary.

Then try explaining collective bargaining rights and what Walker is proposing in a sound bite.

It's why Walker didn't do a commercial on it.

But somehow because he didn't do a commercial on something that takes more than two minutes to explain he is precluded from doing anything about it into perpetuity.

Phil 3:14 said...

fls;
For the race-conscious Iowahawk, dropout data from the Annie E. Casey Foundation's Kids Count:

Teens age 16 to 19 not attending school and not working:

TX WI
7% 5% Non-Hispanic whites
13% 11% Blacks
12% 9% Hispanics
10% 6% Total

http://datacenter.kidscount.org
/data/acrossstates
/Rankings.aspx?ind=5065


As Chip has already suggested, while the dropout stats are attention-grabbing they may not say much about the effectiveness of education in Texas since dropping out is an action engendered by the student not the school.

Frankly, the whole education debate leads me to be deeply disappointed in liberals. If you are "for the kids" and if you firmly believe that the government does good, then any evidence suggesting a poor correlation between dollars spent and education outcomes should motivate liberals to 1) push for better education systems BASED ON OUTCOMES 2)push for no further new expenditures for education and divert any "new" dollars to other worthy programs.

It seems that spending on teachers is the unquestioned good for liberals just like spending on defense has been the unquestioned good for conservatives. (And spending on police for both democrats and republicans.)

Triangle Man said...

Seriously how many of the Rasmussen respondents get what collective bargaining rights means...

I would guess those that support them get what they mean, and those that oppose them don't. Amirite?

madawaskan said...

You don't see the conflict in how many respondents want or think government workers pay should be cut-and just how temporary that would be if collective bargaining remains in effect?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Does anyone else find it ironic that garage and others are outraged that the Koch brothers as private citizens, contributed $42K to Walker yet steadfastly support public employee unions which use taxpayer funded dues to contribute to Democrats.

I guess if the vast majority of those polled believe public employees can continue to negotiate for more unsustainable wages and benefits at the expense of the taxpayer, I suppose the rest of us will just need to STFU and write the checks.

The People Have Spoken.

madawaskan said...

The WI budget short fall isn't going to be solved in a year.

And since we're on the subject just what does the WEAC do with $25 million in dues annually?

They need $25 million annually from dues to pay for drum circles?

chickelit said...

A majority favor pay cuts for State workers.

or:

False choices. It looks like Wisconsin ain't buying it either.
________________


Somebody should invoke Roshomon. Or at least the Rushman.

kent said...

Does anyone else find it ironic that garage and others are outraged that the Koch brothers as private citizens, contributed $42K to Walker yet steadfastly support public employee unions which use taxpayer funded dues to contribute to Democrats.

"Ironic"...? No.

"Hypocritical," "contemptible" and "hysterically, falling-down funny?" Only every single time, is all.

And my left nipple, "Benito," agrees with me.

madawaskan said...

Funny that Hoosier Daddy mentions that because then there is this:

The Wisconsin Education Association Council has voluntarily made $171,091 in payments to the Internal Revenue Service after a review of past federal tax returns, the state's largest teachers union said Wednesday.
In April, the Landmark Legal Foundation asked federal officials to investigate its claim that WEAC failed to report or pay taxes on $430,000 in contributions to the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee between 2000 and 2002 in apparent violation of federal law.
"I initiated a complete review of WEAC's tax filings from the last several years, and our review found donations WEAC made to independent issue advocacy organizations in 2000 and 2002 that should have been subject to taxation," WEAC President Stan Johnson said in a statement Wednesday.


madsion.com

Maguro said...

Most people aren't really sure what "collective bargaining rights" are all about so they don't want to sound like a big meanie and tell a pollster they want to take someone's "rights" away. That's all these polls signify.

madawaskan said...

You don't necessarily lose your "collective bargaining rights" the state stops taking the dues out of the teacher's pay checks for the unions.

The teachers get to voluntarily decide wether or not to pay, and Walker is proposing that every member of the union gets to vote annually to organize or not.

But I guess we can't trust the teacher's to decide and pay the WEAC and other union hierarchies based on merit.

This is what Democracy looks like!-

That's a pretty ironic mob chant for those that don't want the freedom to decide to organize and the freedom to pay their dues themselves.

What's the union afraid of-their own members deciding they aren't worth $25 million annually?

(And that figure is just for the WEA union.)

madawaskan said...

Maguro

Yep. They're winning the language and "sound bite" war.

It's easier.

Hoosier Daddy said...

The Wisconsin Education Association Council has voluntarily made $171,091 in payments to the Internal Revenue Service after a review of past federal tax returns, the state's largest teachers union said Wednesday.

I always wondered when 'high profile' people like Rangel or Geithner or union folks are caught not paying their taxes do they need to hire the services of JK Harris or do they just get a mulligan?

Hoosier Daddy said...

The teachers get to voluntarily decide wether or not to pay, and Walker is proposing that every member of the union gets to vote annually to organize or not

When I was 16 I got a job at my local grocery store as a bag boy. After my one month probation I had to join the union (AFL-CIO) and if memory serves, I was paying close to $15 a month in union dues. Which was a lot when my average paycheck was in the neighborhood of $50 every two weeks.

madawaskan said...

I was paying close to $15 a month in union dues. Which was a lot when my average paycheck was in the neighborhood of $50 every two weeks.

Jeebus.

As to the rest of it-I wonder if they had to pay a fine to the IRS... which of course came out of the union dues.

It's above my pay grade and our resident tax expert Trooper is swamped.

Triangle Man said...

I was paying close to $15 a month in union dues. Which was a lot when my average paycheck was in the neighborhood of $50 every two weeks.

Yeah, but I bet those senior bag boys were really raking it in. You just got out too early.

DaveW said...

What would really be interesting is an analysis of education outcomes for Texas v Wisconsin based on teacher pay. That would shine some shocking light.

In the local district teachers start at about 45k. They don't get a state funded retirement and they pay a significant part of their health insurance costs ($850 per month for a family IIRC).

In other words, about what their private sector counterparts make to start a job requiring similar qualifications. They do get considerably more time off though.

I don't know what the average total compensation is statewide but I'd be willing to bet it's substantially less than the $100k+ I've seen bandied about for Wisconsin teachers.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Yeah, but I bet those senior bag boys were really raking it in. You just got out too early.

Well more hours were awarded based upon senority so, yeah, they were making more than I was.

My best friend OTOH, lucked out and got a job with a landscaping company working over the summers. He would make in a couple days what I made in two and didn't have to pay union dues.

Landscaping was the primo job to have during the summer. Outdoor work, get a tan. Hot chicks whistling at you. Now those are jobs Americans won't do. I wonder how many people born after 1990 even know how to start a lawnmower?

Robert Cook said...

"I mean you can arguably say that the world's imploding because of Obama."

A ridiculous statement, but significantly less so if by "Obama" you really mean "the United States." I have no admiration or respect for Obama, as he is simply doing as did his precessors...he's a lackey serving the agenda of the wealthy elite who really run America. In this, he is contributing to the world's present misery and impoverishment, but Obama in no way represents any break with prior American policy and practice.

"The stabilizing force of the world has always been the United States of America, but nobody fears us."

An even more ridiculous statement, made more so by the self-contradicting assumption that we, ahem, "keep the world stabilized" (sic) by means of the "fear" we engender in other nations. Fear does not produce stability but mere submission and hatred, which is inherently unstable. Besides, I thought the other nations of the world who didn't love us were unfathomable ingrates. Didn't Americans gasp in astonishment after 9/11, "Why do they hate us?"

Are they supposed to love us or fear us? Are they supposed to love and fear us?

"There's no respect or fear of the United States, and he doesn't project any abject respect and love for this country."

Fear precludes respect--or the love that the dirty ingrates of the world are supposed to feel for us--but your compaint that no one "respects or fears" us presupposes correctly that we are a nation so violent and predatory that other nations should fear us. But they cannot fear us and love or respect us.

The above folderol, to use the word of the day, also assumes--astonishingly--that we should create fear toward us among other nations, that "respect" derives necessarily from fear, rather than from admiration, and that we should be more arbitrary, more murderous and violent than we are!

Jeebus!

Robert Cook said...

"Lies and Truth in Wisconsin."

http://www.counterpunch.com/brasch03032011.html

Hoosier Daddy said...

Fear does not produce stability but mere submission and hatred, which is inherently unstable.

You're right. We risked US lives and treasure stopping a genocide in Bosnia and Kosovo and two USAF servicemen were murdered by a Kosovo native in return.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Actually Robert, the world has never 'respected' the US and that goes back to day one of the nation's founding.

Back then we were just a backwater where other nations dumped their 'refuse' populations. Now we're the big meanie.

Robert Cook said...

Oh, as to Obama's Nobel Peace Prize...his winning it does not make a mockery of the prize, as that was well and handily accomplished when earlier American mass murderer and war criminal Henry Kissinger was awarded the prize.

It's just another People's Choice Award these days.

shiloh said...

Why is Iowahawk obsessed with race?

Wingers are totally obsessed w/race and Obama's election has (((allowed))) them all to come out of the closet. Praise the lord!

and AA seems to have a crush on Krugman, eh. Her teenage fetish is quite endearing ...

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Robert Cook

Jeebus! indeed as Obama is responsible for everything bad in the world.

The gospel according to AA and her lemmings ...

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