March 28, 2011

"I think this guy should be investigated. He remembers when Obama was born?"

"Give me a break. He's just trying to do something for his party."

Says Donald Trump, referring to  Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie

191 comments:

Methadras said...

Look, if Erkle was born outside of the US, then it's to late to do anything about it. His presidency has been ratified by congress and I don't believe there is much that can be done about that.

JAL said...

Yeah well. I think we've already had this discussion on this very list.

Abercrombie remembers seeing the Obamas (Stanley, Sr. Daddy and Barry) at parties.

Very very very unlikely given the time line and the fact Stanley bailed to the mainlanad and Sr. Daddy bailed to Harvard.

And Stanley then bailed on the marriage legally.

Delusional Democrat.

Coketown said...

I have a conspiracy of my own in which people like Trump are being paid by the DNC to hype the birther conspiracy so that, come 2012, the Democrats can inflate the patently idiotic birther conspiracy and tear it down by producing the elusive birth certificate. A sort of reverse October surprise.

Ann Althouse said...

"Look, if Erkle was born outside of the US, then it's to late to do anything about it. His presidency has been ratified by congress and I don't believe there is much that can be done about that."

I agree with respect to this term, but it could be made a political issue in the next campaign.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

Trump is a bellwether, a multimillionaire that sees which way the wind is blowing.

And he's correct.

Big Mike said...

Getting back to what Trump said about Abercrombie, the cool thing about "The Donald" is that he can use his status as an amateur politician to display elementary common sense.

Guys like Boehner would do well to take notice.

AJ Lynch said...

I agree with The Donald- Abercrombie is full of soup.

garage mahal said...

Great issue wingers!

Methadras said...

Ann Althouse said...

I agree with respect to this term, but it could be made a political issue in the next campaign.


I seriously doubt it will be made a political issue by any serious GOP contender to go against him. It's a subject better left behind and it will gain little to no traction outside of the birther circuit and they are a tiny, yet vocal minority. Trump used the birther issue as a cheap political stunt since he knows that he won't be running for office. He's better off running for Mayor of NYC at this point, which would be a better platform for him anyway.

Henry said...

I think that if Charlie Sheen lives long enough he will be the perfect choice to play Donald Trump in a biopic.

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

Great issue wingers!


Dead-ender alert.

AJ Lynch said...

Perfectly logical though since it is obvious that laws are selectively enforced when it comes to the letter "B".... Birth certificates, borders, baseball steroid abusers, big banks, what else can we add to this list?

SteveR said...

Regardless of anything else, Abercrombie's story is unbelievable. Unless he's got that Marilu Henner thing going on.

Bob Ellison said...

Birtherism is nutso. It seems to come down to the use of commas in 1787.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

"Trump is now 'really concerned' about Obama's birthplace"

Yeah, the problem is CNN, why aren't you?

Mark said...

"Great issue wingers!"

For once, I agree with Garage. It's a stupid line of attack politically.

(As I've said here before, I'd love to see the original birth certificate to find out what's being protected so vigorously, but in the end I think all we'd find is something trivial that someone has doubled, quadrupled, octupled down upon. Then most everyone not frothing at the mouth would say, "WTF?")

(Although I have also wondered if the original noted "No umbilical cord. Breech birth. Male Infant displayed pronounced hollow canines which extracted placenta during birth. Canines spontaneously detached from Male Infant shortly thereafter. Placenta w/ attached canines submitted to REDACTED for further study.")

shiloh said...

Trump is a bellwether, a multimillionaire that sees which way the wind is blowing.

Which is why he supported McCain in 2008 ...

Oh wait!

Indigo Red said...

Trump said, "I brought it up just routinely, and all of the sudden a lot of facts are emerging, and I am starting to wonder myself whether he was born in this country."

Mr. Trump hasn't been paying attention. The emerging facts emerged long before The Donald routinely mentioned them. Trading one narcissist for another is not healthy for any nation.

36fsfiend said...

Professor,

"I agree with respect to this term, but it could be made a political issue in the next campaign."

You believe Obama was not born in Hawaii?

bagoh20 said...

Well if it turns out he was not born in the U.S., then I hereby pledge that I will not vote for him in 2012.

If it turns out that he was a complete liar on the Birther thing, how many democratic votes do you think it would cost him? Is it fraud punishable with jail time? Would it make the death of Libyans premeditated murder?

Just free associating here - it's a hippie thing.

Ann Althouse said...

"I seriously doubt it will be made a political issue by any serious GOP contender to go against him."

Yeah. I know. It's being made an issue by Trump. Just inserting nagging doubts in people's minds, doubts that resonate with a bunch of arguments saying he doesn't love this country.

bagoh20 said...

Does his own personal writing express a net love of this country? I'm honestly asking. I don't know.

Where he was born is irrelevant to that question.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

shiloh, always quick with a joke or to light up your smoke, eh?

Why then is Trump doing this Shilo?

cryptical said...

After all the hubbub in 2000 and 2004 about documentation of W's Reserve duty, to the point that Dan Rather tried to fake up some documents is it any wonder that people on the other side are curious about the backstory on our undocumented President?

The birth certificate is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm more interested in all the other documentation that's been withheld like college transcripts, passport records,
documentation of his time as a community organizer, mortgage records, etc.

I'm guessing that keeping the focus on the birth certificate serves to keep all the other missing info in the background, out of sight and out of mind.

America's Politico said...

You know that I am from Nepal. I work for a contractor. I take my birth-certificate with me on the first day. They check it. It gets me into the building. As a citizen (10-years ago), I cannot not have access to birth-certificate or passport at all times. It is required. It is the same for all people who become citizens. So, what is the problem for the President? Well, I supported him. But, this is a JOKE. If I have to show my passport/BC to get a job, why cannot he? What is this?

Mark said...

I'm guessing that keeping the focus on the birth certificate serves to keep all the other missing info in the background, out of sight and out of mind.

Again. He's not that smart. My hope is in the National Enquirer.

Methadras said...

Ann Althouse said...

doubts that resonate with a bunch of arguments saying he doesn't love this country.


That's a different argument altogether. It's one thing to cast doubt in peoples mind as to his origin, but to cast doubt in peoples mind about whether he loves this country or not is something different. Whether that is his intent or not, I can't tell. From my point of view, he's trying to cast doubt on his legitimacy and in doing so is seeking some remedy to cast someone he thinks is illegitimate out of office. My first post stands. It won't happen.

But I will answer your statement on whether Erkle loves this country or not. He may love this country, but for reasons that stem from his radical leftist agenda of having an entitled society that are dependent on government for their daily bread. He does not view liberty and freedom as other traditionalists do.

Rialby said...

Garage - great issue

Uh, yeah, but it's not the mainstream of the Republican party that continues to foment this. It's the left. They talk about it incessantly and ask everyone from Mitch McConnell's dry cleaner to Rand Paul's barber to take a position on it on national tv.

36fsfiend said...

So Dr. Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, who verified the certificate of live birth is valid, was involved in some kind of conspiracy while working for Governor Lingle? The State of Hawaii has issued a falsified document?

shiloh said...

NYTNY

Why does Trump do anything ~ publicity ...

take care

edutcher said...

Ann's point about nagging doubts is on the money. The Lefties have used the tactic for years. Remember how McCain was supposed to be somehow ineligible because he was born in the Canal Zone?

Always thought that was a pre-emptive strike.

Also, when a Democrat can't find the birth cert after his Republican predecessor says she saw it, Hamlet's nose is correct about Denmark.

Methadras said...

Look, if Erkle was born outside of the US, then it's to late to do anything about it. His presidency has been ratified by congress and I don't believe there is much that can be done about that.

Impeachment and trial for fraud sounds good to me.

Followed by a suitable term of imprisonment.

Freeman Hunt said...

a bunch of arguments saying he doesn't love this country.

He loves this country. He loves it the way I love, say, "Keeping Up with the Kardashians." If I could change every single thing about it (title, topic, stars, staff, genre, settings, etc.), I might think it was pretty good.

shiloh said...

Birthers rejoice! ;)

Freeman Hunt said...

He loves it the way Andrew Sullivan loves having sex with women. Or the way Charlie Sheen loves monogamy. Or the way Althouse loves shorts.

bagoh20 said...

Trump's point is simple: If Obama can settle this, why does he not? At this point it's just disrespectful of the American people and the Presidency to withhold what he could easily show.

It has lost, and is now reversing, the political leverage it had for him. Many who never doubted it before are now getting suspicious.

Trump's view is if you hired a guy as a driver which required a driver's license, and he never produced it, but others vouched for him. What would you think if he continued to refuse to produce it? Either he's got something to hide or he has no respect for his employer. So which is it?

Carol_Herman said...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403.htm

I have no idea how to make the above a "link." It's an article,from Illinois. Dated 1974. Obama's first WIN. It starts off that he was born in Kenya.

Do I think he was born in Kenya? No. But it could have been one, among many lies, that Obama's been telling for a very long time.

Now, someone said there's a Black man who was in Hawaii, FRANK DAVIS, who is probably Barry's father. And, when Stanley Ann Dunham ABANDONS her son when he's less than two; he leaves them with Frank Davis and his wife. (What if she thought she was leaving her son with his dad?)

It's a sad day that we're reduced to story telling. And, no access at all to information.

Curiouser, and curiouser, what was on the original document? What if Barack Hussein Obama is just an invention?

The socialists spent a fortune grooming this man. And, got to see him elected.

Let's hope in 2012 the republicans (who often fumble), at least pick a nominee better than McCain. And, definitely NOT a Nixon!

Mark said...

So Dr. Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, who verified the certificate of live birth is valid, was involved in some kind of conspiracy while working for Governor Lingle? The State of Hawaii has issued a falsified document?

What if, on the original document, the father was listed as "unknown"? (Remember, this in an out-of-wedlock birth, and emotions are running high, hard, and hot. Stanley Ann Dunham may not have been in a charitable mood to Obama's father at the time of birth.)

Is there a mechanism to later change that? Later as in, within 36 hours? I seem to recall something like that, but the laws in Hawaii at the time would be relevant to the issue, and I have no idea what they might have been.

If so, and that would be a perfectly ethical reason for current officials to be less than forthcoming about the contents of the original document. Something like that is my best guess about what's going on.

Almost Ali said...

Like it or not, Trump has legitimized the so-called birthers, and in the process made the issue politically respectable.

Michael K said...

There is a lot of speculation about what could be on the birth certificate that has nothing to do with being born in Hawaii or not. Maybe his mother listed his race as "white," for example. Or his religion as "Muslim."

I would like to see some school records. It is simply amazing that this country elected such a cipher.

Without the financial meltdown, I don't think they would have.

shiloh said...

better than McCain

McCain was the best Reps had in 2008 ie a war hero and not as bad a flip/flopper as mittens.

2012 Reps don't have anyone better than McCain, just retreads and wannabes, but keep hope alive ;) anything is possible in politics.

Freeman Hunt said...

McCain was the best Reps had in 2008

No, he wasn't. Fred Thompson was.

michaele said...

This is quite a list:

Another significant factor is the multitude of documents that Obama has kept from the public.

Besides his actual birth documentation, the documentation includes kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records, and his adoption records.

Sixty Grit said...

I think we should investigate why Urkel is constantly being misspelled here.

AP - you are not from Nepal. You write as if you are from Mars.

36fsfiend said...

Mark,

Obama's father and mother were married on February 2, 1961. Obama was not born out of wedlock.

As far as your point about the father being "unknown" how does that affect Obama's citizenship?

Again, Dr. Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, verified the certificate of live birth as valid. If not, she is falsifying information and she did this with a Republican Governor in charge.

shiloh said...

Fred Thompson was.

He was very good in The Hunt for Red October.

Just wanted to say something nice about Thompson.

Almost Ali said...

Again, Dr. Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, verified the certificate of live birth as valid.

Hearsay.

The courts always prefer legal documentation.

bagoh20 said...

How do you ask the next Hussein to produce proof of eligibility if not this one? Is this gonna be the standard - the Rope-a-dope.

CachorroQuente said...

Almost Ali said...
"Like it or not, Trump has legitimized the so-called birthers, and in the process made the issue politically respectable."


No, Trump the Birther has not legitimized anything. All he has done is reveal himself to be capable of embracing a bizarre conspiracy theory.

The State of Hawaii, which has the official records, officially says that Obama was born in Hawaii. That's the only important question in this whole thing -- none of these other fancy speculations about who the father is or what race was listed on the original document for his father, none of this is of any importance.

Also, remember that the claim that the Hawaii governor claims that the original birth certificate can't be found originates with the World Net Daily, not with the governor of Hawaii.

Revenant said...

Why the heck would ANYONE besides his grandparents remember him being born? I mean, I know the guy is Jesus and everything but come on.

36fsfiend said...

Almost Ali,

I the certificate of live birth is the official document the State of Hawaii issues to prove citizenship for passports and such, why would a court not accept it?

Fen said...

Article II of our Constitution

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Does eligibility matter? Why can't Tony Blair run for POTUS? Or a 25-year-old from Tehran?

And if it matters, then shouldn't the burden of proof be on the candidate?

And if that candidate fails to provide evidence of eligibility, even after being elected, shouldn't he be removed from office?

James said...

The issue will come to a head soon. The following states are all considering legislation that would require presidential candidates to provide proof of birth in order to appear on their ballots:

Arizona
Connecticut
Georgia
Indiana
Iowa
New Hampshire
Maine
Montana
Nebraska
Tennessee
Texas

Even if only one or two states actually enact legislation I can't see Obama forgoing them if he wants to be re-elected.

foxtrot said...

Shiloh says:

"McCain was the best Reps had in 2008 ie a war hero and not as bad a flip/flopper as mittens."

A flip/flopper? What about Kerry and Obama? I think Obama will be his own worst enemy in 2012, not the Republicans. Obama is the third term of Bush and second of Carter all in one...a train wreck in the works.

Obama has lost more face in the world in 2 1/2 years that Bush did in 8 years. I wouldn't be too smug about how much the American public believes in the regime.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Donald Trump is being taken seriously as a political voice.

Shiloh is the voice of reason on this thread.

America's Politico just criticized President Obama.

Could somebody bring me a mop? My head just exploded.

Leo Ladenson said...

Obama's father and mother were married on February 2, 1961. Obama was not born out of wedlock.


In fact, Obama Sr. was still married to his Kenyan first wife, Kezia. His relationship with Stanley Ann was bigamous and thus no marriage under U.S. law. So Barack Jr. was a bastard, born to a bigamous union.

bagoh20 said...

If enacted any such state statute will not be an obstacle to Obama. I expect that the proof required will be what he already did, or will be easy to produce. It will be legal proof not actual proof.

CachorroQuente said...

Jesus, I can't believe this keeps going around in the same damned circles over and over. The State of Hawaii, using its standard forms and procedures, has officially verified that Obama was born in Hawaii. This is a settled question and there is nothing else for Obama to present.

The Constitution requires that the president be natural born and the State of Hawaii has certified that Obama is in a fashion that will satisfy any reasonable person. The Constitution does not require that candidates for president provide proof of birth in any particular form and it seems to me quite obvious that any attempt by any state to require that Hawaii change its procedures is doomed to failure.

Why is this so hard to grasp, particularly for someone like Trump who claims to be a smart guy who did very well at the best school?

Almost Ali said...

The State of Hawaii... officially says that Obama was born in Hawaii.

Again, hearsay. The State of Hawaii cannot issue a statement in lieu of documentation. Not if they want to be believed.

In addition, Gov. Abercrombie's failure to locate Obama's original (long form) birth certificate was widely reported:

"Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie has been forced to admit failure in his quest to uncover President Obama's birth certificate." Yahoo News

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

Obama Sr. eventually informed Dunham about his first marriage in Kenya but claimed he was divorced. Years later, she would discover this was false. Kezia, later said she had granted her consent for him to marry a second wife, in keeping with Luo customs.

Again, how does this affect his citizenship?

bagoh20 said...

"born to a bigamous union."

from the latin "Bigus Dickus"

foxtrot said...

Just produce the birth certificate, and debate over. He's the president of the United States, and has all the power to track down and present the documents necessary. What's the problem?

MPH said...

Trump is trying to rally a base stupid enough to buy his business books.

Billionaires don't make books like this:

"Think BIG and Kick Ass in Business and Life"

http://www.amazon.com/Think-BIG-Kick-Business-Life/dp/0061547832

This guy is a fraud.

36fsfiend said...

CachorroQuente,

Concur.

Tomas said...

Obama birth certificate here:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

So all of you are voting for Trump?
From http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/donald-trump/what-is-donald-trump-trying-hide-us-563901:

"Except the document is not an official New York City birth certificate, but rather a document generated by Jamaica Hospital, where Trump’s mother Mary reportedly gave birth in June 1946. Official birth certificates are issued (and maintained) by the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene’s Office of Vital Records.

So, what is Trump trying to conceal?"

Leo Ladenson said...

Obama Sr. eventually informed Dunham about his first marriage in Kenya but claimed he was divorced. Years later, she would discover this was false. Kezia, later said she had granted her consent for him to marry a second wife, in keeping with Luo customs.

Again, how does this affect his citizenship?



I never said it did. But you falsely claimed Obama Jr. wasn't born out of wedlock. He was--as you just recounted.

Do we add this to his list of firsts--first bastard president?

Mark said...

36fsfiend said..

Obama's father and mother were married on February 2, 1961. Obama was not born out of wedlock.

You are correct. I'm not sure why I believed Obama's birth was out of wedlock, but I did.

Still, it doesn't take much research (if you can call it that) to show that relationships might have been a bit strained at the time:

At the age of 23, Obama had come to Hawaii to pursue his education, leaving behind a pregnant wife and infant son in his home town of Nyang’oma Kogelo in Kenya. Dunham and Obama were married on the Hawaiian island of Maui on February 2, 1961, despite parental opposition from both families. Dunham was three months pregnant at the time of her marriage. Obama Sr. eventually informed Dunham about his first marriage in Kenya but claimed he was divorced. Years later, she would discover this was false. Obama Sr.'s first wife, Kezia, later said she had granted her consent for him to marry a second wife, in keeping with Luo customs.


On August 4, 1961, at the age of 18, Dunham gave birth to her first child, Barack Obama II. Friends in Washington State recall her visiting with her month-old baby in 1961. She took classes at the University of Washington from September 1961 to June 1962, and lived as a single mother in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle with her son while her husband continued his studies in Hawaii. When Obama Sr. graduated from the University of Hawaii in June 1962, he was offered a scholarship to study in New York City but he declined it, preferring to attend the more prestigious Harvard University. He left for Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he would begin graduate study at Harvard in the fall of 1962. Dunham returned to Honolulu and resumed her undergraduate education at the University of Hawaii with the spring semester in January 1963. During this time, her parents helped her raise the young Obama. Dunham filed for divorce in January 1964, which Obama Sr. did not contest. Obama Sr. received a M.A. in economics from Harvard in 1965 and in 1971, he came to Hawaii and visited his son Barack, then 10 years old; it was the last time he would see his son. In 1982, Obama Sr. was killed in a car accident.


So, she took her one-month old son from Hawaii to Washington State because she was thrilled with her baby-daddy? At the age of 18?

I made a mistake, but I may not have been wrong.

mariner said...

James,
The following states are all considering legislation that would require presidential candidates to provide proof of birth in order to appear on their ballots:

And that won't matter.

Some Democrat judge will just declare it unconstitutional.

bagoh20 said...

Well if it turns out that Obama has indisputable proof and presents it, I will feel no shame in requesting it.

But if it turns out there is none,or worse, proof of the opposite, will you who refuse to entertain the possibility of fraud be proud of yourselves?

Freeman Hunt said...

Why the heck would ANYONE besides his grandparents remember him being born? I mean, I know the guy is Jesus and everything but come on.

Abercrombie arrived at the birth by following a strange star he noticed outside of his office window. When he arrived, the infant Obama stood, took seven steps, and proclaimed “I alone am the World-Honored One!”

How could he forget?

Almost Ali said...

I[f] the certificate of live birth is the official document the State of Hawaii issues to prove citizenship for passports and such, why would a court not accept it?

The COLB is an extract, not the official record (i.e., long form). When challenged - as in this case - the official record must be produced.

James said...

any attempt by any state to require that Hawaii change its procedures is doomed to failure.

I don't see any state proposing to do that. Rather, they are asking all presidential candidates to produce certified copies of their birth certificates.

36fsfiend said...

Almost Ali,

That article states Hawaii privacy laws forbid the disclosure of the source documents without consent of Obama not that Gov. Abercrombie could not locate them.

Dr. Fukino has stated she has seen the source documents and they are in order.

shiloh said...

Shiloh is the voice of reason on this thread.

Didn't know AA was a birther or maybe she's just playin' one on her blog to keep her flock happy.

She may be an advocate of the theory ~ If you say something often enough, it must be true.

Again, moderate independents who decide elections aren't very interested in what the birthers, deathers, truthers, 10thers, 14thers, teabaggers, seccessionists ie yahoos think.

And it will be interesting to see how the Rep nomineee in 2012 kowtows to the conservative wingnut fringe.

You bet'cha!

Carol_Herman said...

2004. Obama wins his senate seat. Someone else had to drop out because of some lurid sex scandal.

In the article, where Obama's win is acknowledged: 2004. The article's first words are: "Kenyan born Obama" wins senate race.

Sure. That was the story told THEN.

By the way, the first person to approach Obama when he arrives in the senate is JOHN KERRY. Obama was embraced then as some sort of "special arrival."

It's all fixed.

I saw today, at Freepers, an article that said a Black man, FRANK DAVIS, was probably "Obama's" father. No one knows HOW his birth was recorded! Stanley Ann Dunham gave birth. And, she was the "go-to" person for the birth information.

Name on the cirtificate? Probably, "no obama."

Mom leaves an 18 month old child with Frank Davis and his wife. Who resided in Hawaii. (Very RED family connections.) Which fit the puzzle.

The Davis' have a son MARK DAVIS, who resembles Obama. Like a half-brother.

You want to know the truth?

We don't know the truth!

Is President Obama a SOCIALIST! Yes. A global vision of "humanitarian socialism." Because everything, per Orwell, is a lie set out as the truth. Just to keep you confused.

Can Obama win re-election? WHY? What fumbles are you anticipating the republicans will make here?

bagoh20 said...

Just demonstrate the most transparent administration in history and we can put this behind us, Mr. President. For the unity of the nation, for your own credibility, hell just for laughs - tell us what's up with that? Surely, you gotta have people who can get that for us. Just tell them to do it, before heading out to the links today. We could have it by the end of the week.

36fsfiend said...

Almost Ali,

"The COLB is an extract, not the official record (i.e., long form)."

Same thing for PA and I've never had a problem getting a passport with my PA birth certificate which actually has less information them what the Hawaii COLB shows.

36fsfiend said...

shiloh,

Concur.

traditionalguy said...

How about we dig up proof of Barack's Kenyan birth, and then the next time Airforce One leaves for Brazil, we declare Biden President and refuse Obama re-entry to the USA without a Kenyan Passport and a Visa. The Donald will win one. This is as much fun as Henry V finding out that he is a great, great grandson of a daughter of the King of France.

bagoh20 said...

Is there anyone here who would refuse to settle this if THEY were Obama? Why?

garage mahal said...


And if it matters, then shouldn't the burden of proof be on the candidate?


Yea!!??!1

foxtrot said...

"Same thing for PA and I've never had a problem getting a passport with my PA birth certificate which actually has less information them what the Hawaii COLB shows."

There's a difference between getting a passport and being eligible to be the president of the country. Even naturalized citizens can get passports, but they can't become president.

CachorroQuente said...


Again, hearsay. The State of Hawaii cannot issue a statement in lieu of documentation. Not if they want to be believed.


Hawaii has provided a "Certification of Live Birth." That is what on this planet is called "documentation."

Notice that there has been no claim made by any serious person that the certification was in any way falsified. State of Hawaii officials have verified publicly that the certification reflects the contents of the State's official records.

One final time: The State of Hawaii keeps the official records and reveals and certifies what is in those records in accordance with Hawaii laws and procedures. This they have done.

In addition, Gov. Abercrombie's failure to locate Obama's original (long form) birth certificate was widely reported:

"Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie has been forced to admit failure in his quest to uncover President Obama's birth certificate." Yahoo News


Read the "Yahoo News" article linked to. It asserts that Abercrombie was forced to admit but offers no quotes or links or anything to support that assertion -- mostly because it is false that Abercrombie made that admission.

I have no idea how something gets to be "Yahoo News" and this linked article surely casts doubt on "Yahoo News's" reliability. From the article: "however, there must be something else that is embarrassing in the original birth certificate that is causing the President to refuse permission to release it. Some have suggested that under religion Obama was classified as a "Muslim," even though his father was a lapsed Muslim and Obama was raised as a Christian." Examples of so-called long form Hawaii birth certificates from the early 60s are available on line. Any fool interested can see as many as necessary and figure out that the religion of neither the father nor the mother is recorded and the child is not classified as to religion. I guess the author of the "Yahoo News" article, Mark Whittington, is not just an ordinary fool.

36fsfiend said...

foxtrot,

The COLB indicates Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. Hence he is a natural born citizen.

Were is the Republican Party, my party, going with this? Please?

Almost Ali said...

Dr. Fukino has stated she has seen the source documents and they are in order.

Legally, her word amounts to hearsay. For example, the "source" document may amount to a simple notation. Something Fukino or a clerk penciled on the margin.

Meanwhile, Obama has already lost the case based on his complete failure to produce any documentation, up to and including his original birth certificate.

He was elected president by an act of faith - under the Act of God clause, if you will.

Mark said...

Sorry, I was wrong. Obama was not born out of wedlock. OTOH, his mom decamped to Washington state with a one-month old son when she barely 18 years old, leaving the father to continue his studies.

Not a picture of a healthy relationship with Obama Senior.

shiloh said...

He was elected president by an act of faith - under the Act of God clause, if you will.

Praise the Lord!

Leo Ladenson said...

even though his father was a lapsed Muslim and Obama was raised as a Christian.


Wrong, but thanks for playing.

"I was not raised in a particularly religious household. I had a father who was born a Muslim but became an atheist, grandparents who were non-practicing Methodists and Baptists, and a mother who was skeptical of organized religion, even as she was the kindest, most spiritual person I've ever known. She was the one who taught me as a child to love, and to understand, and to do unto others as I would want done.

"I didn't become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college."

bagoh20 said...

What is worse: for him to be not qualified, or to be qualified and allow this controversy to continue without lifting a finger?

It's no longer about his qualifications, but rather his disrespect for the American people and his office.

Mark said...

BTW, I had other posts eaten by blogger with actual links and stuff, but they were eaten.

Google Obama's mother and get some interesting information about the very early life of Obama. Apparently you can't post it on Blogger, but you can still find it if you're not trying to pass it on.

Leo Ladenson said...

Sorry, I was wrong. Obama was not born out of wedlock.


No, you were right. Pay attention.

36fsfiend said...

Mark,

Yes, but that does not affect his citizenship. I'm sure other presidents have had issues with their respective families.

garage mahal said...

One final time: The State of Hawaii keeps the official records and reveals and certifies what is in those records in accordance with Hawaii laws and procedures. This they have done.

But then why is there this big cloudy controversy coming from the right wing that just keeps lingering on? Why?? Why can't their questions ever be fully answered? We KNOW they mean well!

Almost Ali said...

Hawaii has provided a "Certification of Live Birth." That is what on this planet is called "documentation."

Again, the COLB is an extract, taken from the original (assuming it exists). In court the original would be required to establish and verify the COLB.

Regarding Abercrombie's very public search for the long form, his stated intention was to finally put this issue to rest.

He didn't.

In fact, he seemed shelled-shocked by what he had discovered. And I doubt his discovery had anything to do with Barry being Muslim or having two left feet.

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

And even if he was born out of wedlock, how does that affect his citizenship?

foxtrot said...

CachorroQuente says:

"State of Hawaii officials have verified publicly that the certification reflects the contents of the State's official records.
[...] One final time: The State of Hawaii keeps the official records and reveals and certifies what is in those records in accordance with Hawaii laws and procedures. This they have done."

Are you implying that there is a document, like birth certificate, behind this COLB? If such document exists, why can't that simply be provided at the request of Obama? The "take the governor's word for it" approach concerning the presence of more legit documents isn't very convincing.

Fen said...

No, Trump the Birther has not legitimized anything. All he has done is reveal himself to be capable of embracing a bizarre conspiracy theory.

Trump is an idiot.

But why do you feel a need to use the words "bizarre conspiracy theory"?

Reasonable people want access to this informatiom - birth cert long form, college transcripts, passport records, documentation of his time as a community organizer, mortgage records... Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records...

How is the public's desire to access that information "a bizarre conspiracy theory"?

Ann is spot on. Hiding all this from us only creates an atmosphere that fuels other suspicions about the man.

foxtrot said...

Garage says:

"Why can't their questions ever be fully answered?"

If your transparent president would answer the goddamned questions, and be forthright (as you expected of Bush), then we wouldn't have to debate this bullshit.

Lem said...

The onus is on Obama to release his birth certificate.

You would think that someone who would not allow a massacre the size of Charlotte to happen would not allow his fellow citizens (in greater numbers than the size of Charlotte) to believe he is an illegitimate president.

CachorroQuente said...

Blogger foxtrot said...

Just produce the birth certificate, and debate over. He's the president of the United States, and has all the power to track down and present the documents necessary. What's the problem?


The documents necessary have been presented.

36fsfiend said...

Fen,

Is there some site I can access the same information, i.e., college transcripts, passport records, etc., on McCain and Palin?

Leo Ladenson said...

And even if he was born out of wedlock, how does that affect his citizenship?


It doesn't. No one ever said it did.

My fascination with the birther issue is that it simply points out what a cipher the president is. In fact, I would argue that one of the only things that we know for certain about him is that he was born in Hawaii. But everything else seems up for grabs.

It seems that not all of you loyal supporters knew that he was a bastard. Aren't you curious what else you don't know about the man you entrusted with the leadership of the free world?

foxtrot said...

CachorroQuente says:

"The documents necessary have been presented."

Unless something fell through the cracks, is seems like only one document in the form of a COLB has been presented. Again...are we led to assume that there are more documents that exist behind this?

Almost Ali said...

I've never had a problem getting a passport with my PA birth certificate which actually has less information them what the Hawaii COLB shows.

Apparently yours was not challenged.

But Obama's was.

That's why we have courts. Which in this case, turned the matter into one of "standing" - which allowed the courts to avoid the underlying question.

To date, the various courts have said that no one has "standing," or cause. Although at least one court suggested that the matter was/is up to the legislative. Except when it's not.

Freeman Hunt said...

Google Obama's mother and get some interesting information about the very early life of Obama.

I googled her and only got a bunch of results that read like they'd been written by radio guests of Art Bell.

garage mahal said...

If your transparent president would answer the goddamned questions, and be forthright (as you expected of Bush), then we wouldn't have to debate this bullshit

No kidding. Don't we all remember when Bush waved his birth certificate for all us to see??? BEFORE he was sworn in?

garage mahal said...


That's why we have courts.


You can just ignore the courts. Well at least here in Wisconsin anyway.

Mark said...

Yes, but that does not affect his citizenship. I'm sure other presidents have had issues with their respective families.

Even if he was an official bastard that wouldn't affect his citizenship. The problem is the cover-up. The short form is the short form; there is a long form somewhere, unless it was eaten by leopards. (No Douglas Adams fans here?)

For some reason the original is being protected from scrutiny by the bureaucracy in Hawaii . Since I do not believe in vast conspiracies that do not directly involve press credentials, I'm assuming the reason is reasonable.

OTOH, that I can't post a link here to Stanley Ann Dunham's wikipedia link here without my comment disappearing is freaking me out.

36fsfiend said...

Almost Ali,

And why have all the courts in this case turned the matter into one of "standing" to avoid the underlying question.

Mark said...

Freeman, it was only the Wikipedia link. It's pretty well footnoted. I'd trust most of the information.

Leo Ladenson said...

Is there some site I can access the same information, i.e., college transcripts, passport records, etc., on McCain and Palin?


Do you really want to go down this road? Are you really claiming that scrutiny of McCain-Palin was lacking in 2008?!?!

For starters, do you recall the 50 reporters the NY Times sent to Alaska? How many did they send to the archives in Honolulu?

WestVirginiaRebel said...

I have to wonder if the Donald is only bringing this up to make the rest of the right look crazy. The only other explanation is that he really is this nuts.

Leo Ladenson said...

You can just ignore the courts. Well at least here in Wisconsin anyway.


And in Washington you can just ignore the Congress--despite all your past protestations.

Freeman Hunt said...

Oh, I skipped the Wikipedia one because I didn't think it had anything particularly surprising in it.

CachorroQuente said...

Blogger James said...

any attempt by any state to require that Hawaii change its procedures is doomed to failure.

I don't see any state proposing to do that. Rather, they are asking all presidential candidates to produce certified copies of their birth certificates.
Hawaii does not issue certified copies of their birth certificates. Any attempt by other states to deny those born in Hawaii access to the ballot because Hawaii does not issue certified copies of birth certificates (but issues a Certification of Birth instead) is doomed to failure.

36fsfiend said...

Mark,

"Even if he was an official bastard that wouldn't affect his citizenship. The problem is the cover-up."

Well I guess I don't believe the state of Hawaii is committing a coverup, particularly when a Republican Governor was in charge at the time this became an issue.

Lem said...

To date, the various courts have said that no one has "standing," or cause.

Its one of the few.. few things that are spelled out in the dam document, that also happens to be the supreme law of the land.

We don't need no dam clause to see it - its right there.. age and born in the states.

Leo Ladenson said...

I googled her and only got a bunch of results that read like they'd been written by radio guests of Art Bell.


There are some nudie pics too.

(I know they're fake--fake but accurate?)

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

Give me the site so I can look at the transcripts from the four colleges Palin attended.

bagoh20 said...

"I have to wonder if the Donald is only bringing this up to make the rest of the right look crazy."

I don't think that's what's happening. People who never bought into the Birtherism (like me) are now wondering too. As Trump said, we don't think he's unqualified, so why not settle it. There must be a reason, that's all Trump is saying. If that's crazy, you'll need an awfully big net.

Fen said...

"The documents necessary have been presented."

"the memos were thoroughly investigated by independent experts, and we are convinced of their authenticity"

"this report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources,"

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

"The documents necessary have been presented."

foxtrot said...

garage says:

"No kidding. Don't we all remember when Bush waved his birth certificate for all us to see??? BEFORE he was sworn in?"

But the difference is that Bush could have produced the documents necessary before being sworn in. We knew much more about Bush before he went into office than Obama, regardless of how shitty of a president either of the two became.

We knew he had oil ties; we knew what his father did in Iraq; we knew that he made gentleman's Cs in school; we knew he was an alcoholic; we knew he was born in Texas.

What did we know of Obama? Community organizer, questionable ties with extremists, virtually no real governing experience...maybe went to law school...maybe was born in the U.S.

If your best counter-argument to me is Bush: 1) I never voted for Bush and 2) At least we knew more of his pre-presidential track record than Obama's.

If Obama wanted to be the model of transparency (which the liberals imply Bush never was), then he had (and still has) every opportunity to do so.

Almost Ali said...

36fsfiend said...
And why have all the courts in this case turned the matter into one of "standing" to avoid the underlying question.

IMO, to accommodate the Doctrine of Greater Good - the legitimacy of "standing" - notwithstanding.

In other words, to avoid what they, the courts, rightly or wrongly, perceived as a potential constitutional crisis.

Not to mention keeping the United States of America from looking like a banana republic.

CachorroQuente said...

Blogger bagoh20 said...

Is there anyone here who would refuse to settle this if THEY were Obama? Why?


It has been settled -- there is no dispute. Until someone provides some evidence that there is some fraud or good reason to doubt Obama's status as a natural born citizen, there is no controversy.

To directly answer the question, if I were in Obama's position I would also refuse to recognize the birther's assertions or deal with them in any way. There is nothing to be gained by engaging wackos and crackpots in civilized discussion mostly because it won't work. Just like George Bush the junior should neither acknowledge the truthers or their arguments or engage those arguments. Sane people have no obligation in engage nuts.

foxtrot said...

Garage says:

"You can just ignore the courts. Well at least here in Wisconsin anyway."

Or you can just ignore the voting majority from last November...

Mark said...

Well I guess I don't believe the state of Hawaii is committing a coverup, particularly when a Republican Governor was in charge at the time this became an issue.

What part of "good reasons" didn't you understand?

At some point in time there was a hospital record of birth of Obama. Today we are told (reasonably) that the State of Hawaii certifies Barack Obama was born a United States Citizen.

There are ethical reasons to say this and nothing more. As a matter of fact, in all cases that's the ethical thing to do, just to shield all cases from needless scrutiny.

Who needs to know that Joe Smith was born Joe Bastard, but Mr. and Mrs. Smith made up?

It's not the State of Hawaii doing the covering-up, it's Obama. He could make this go away by saying to the body holding the document "release the damn thing already."

Instead, Mr. Kinetic Military Action pretends the Hawaiian certification is the full and only story. It isn't.

I don't know what he's hiding, if anything at all; as I stated somewhere earlier, it might just be a "screw you" to anyone who wants to dig into his background. I can understand that impulse, but I don't think it's wise.

If I thought he was a super-genius, I could admire this as some kind of diversionary action. I really think it's a sad commentary on how impacted our politics have become.

shiloh said...

For starters, do you recall the 50 reporters the NY Times sent to Alaska?

Well since McCain's campaign aides didn't vet mama grizzly, somebody had to lol.

btw, like palin's granddaughter Tripp, I too am a bastard er illegitimate. ;)

Damn, I could be president! :)

36fsfiend said...

Almost Ali,

OK, thanks.

Fen said...

It has been settled -- there is no dispute.

I think you mean "the science is settled, the debate is over"

Sane people have no obligation in engage nuts.

Why is it "nuts" to want access to Obama's records?

We saw the same thing with Kerry. All this smacktalk about being so much smarter... then it turns out he had a lower GPA than Bush.

Why are you so quick to marginalize people for wanting to know whats in Obama's past?

shiloh said...

There are some nudie pics too.

Reagan's daughter Patti Davis' Playboy pics were enlightening! :)

CachorroQuente said...


The COLB is an extract, not the official record (i.e., long form). When challenged - as in this case - the official record must be produced.


I doubt that that's true. Even if it were, who has challenged the information on the Certificate of Live Birth, in what forum has it been challenged, and what is the basis for the challenge?

36fsfiend said...

Mark,

"It's not the State of Hawaii doing the covering-up, it's Obama."

Again, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, along with the Republican Governor at the time have verified that the COLB is valid IAW the source documents. If they are lying, then the State of Hawaii is involved with a coverup.

bagoh20 said...

"I would also refuse to recognize the birther's assertions or deal with them in any way. There is nothing to be gained by engaging wackos and crackpots in civilized discussion mostly because it won't work."

"Lady doth protest too much"

I'm not a birther, and it would work if he just gave the permission. That's all. There are no sufficient reasons for refusal and the withholding of all the other records of his past as well. It's just excuses. This is a public office of trust. An honorable man would not play games like this with it, and with us.

Leo Ladenson said...

Give me the site so I can look at the transcripts from the four colleges Palin attended.


Always punching down--just like your black messiah. Remember Palin was nominated for the number 2 spot--only the Dems reserved the top slot for the empty suit.

And it was actually five colleges (or six if you count two separate stints at U of Idaho separately). You know, university students in Germany change colleges quite freely--I'm not sure why you're so against it here.

In any case, I'm sure la Palin's grades were quite mediocre. She never claimed otherwise. But Obama has been touted as the love child of Reinhold Niebuhr and Albert Einstein--a genius of unprecedented range--while curiously having been admitted to a couple of Ivy League institutions at the height of their affirmative-action mania. Given that Obama had no other accomplishments of which to speak, it is not surprising that some folks would like to see some proof of his claimed genius.

bagoh20 said...

Face it, you would not hire a guy who refused to prove such documentation if it was required for the job and he could easily do it. You simply would not trust such a man. That's what the problem is. This man lied (especially to his supporters) during the campaign, and it has become woefully apparent. There is a pattern here. To continue to ignore it is what's crazy.

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

I'm not punching down - you mentioned the NY Times going to Alaska to check on Palin

Obama is not my "black messiah". Christ is my Messiah.

"In any case, I'm sure la Palin's grades were quite mediocre. She never claimed otherwise." I'd like to review them myself. Source please?

CachorroQuente said...

Legally, her word amounts to hearsay. For example, the "source" document may amount to a simple notation. Something Fukino or a clerk penciled on the margin.

Hearsay? Do you know what hearsay is? She claims to have examined the records and has offered a statement about them. That's not hearsay, that's direct evidence about what the records contain. Of course, if her examination of a so-called long form birth certificate is what she was referring to, her evidence is that the records contain the certificate, not that the certificate reflects true events -- that's a different question. One which the birthers will never consede being answered.

Meanwhile, Obama has already lost the case based on his complete failure to produce any documentation, up to and including his original birth certificate.

People keep saying this as if it were true -- it is not.

CachorroQuente said...


Not a picture of a healthy relationship with Obama Senior.


Fine and if you are writing a psychological biography of our president, expound on that and explain how that resulted in him considering William Ayers a father figure, or whatever. But, it has absolutely nothing to do with all this birther retardation.

Leo Ladenson said...

Well since McCain's campaign aides didn't vet mama grizzly, somebody had to lol.


Somebody had to laugh out loud?

The Washingtonian's recent profile of A.B. Culvahouse made clear that Palin was vetted--warts and all--but that the choice was McCain's.

In any event--and I really, really would love an honest answer to this one--who vetted Obama? He was running for the top job after all. McCain had spent more time at the Naval Academy--and more time in a POW prison--than Obama had spent in national politics. How could someone about whom so little is known--and whose middle name was apparently a slur--be elected president of the United States? I may never understand that.

CachorroQuente said...

What is worse: for him to be not qualified, or to be qualified and allow this controversy to continue without lifting a finger?

There is no controversy. Obama is doing exactly the correct thing ignoring the birthers. That may change in the future as Obama has proven that he can ignore the right thing to do.

Leo Ladenson said...

"In any case, I'm sure la Palin's grades were quite mediocre. She never claimed otherwise." I'd like to review them myself. Source please?


Well, of course, Mrs. Palin is a private citizen now. I'm sure she'll be happy to oblige--right after the president demonstrates his leadership on this issue.

foxtrot said...

CachorroQuente:

"Hearsay? Do you know what hearsay is? She claims to have examined the records and has offered a statement about them."

But we live in a world where seeing is believing. Do you think the governor of Hawaii, a liberal to the best of my knowledge, is really going to lay down any evidence on the table, or confess a lack of thereof, that would make Obama look bad? I think the assumptions are a bit on the naive side that things were "certified".

The left had their conspiracy theories about Bush, now here is one about Obama.

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

"In any event--and I really, really would love an honest answer to this one--who vetted Obama? He was running for the top job after all."

A lot of people wanted Clinton to be the first woman president. Her supporters did a lot of digging during the primary, no?.

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

"Well, of course, Mrs. Palin is a private citizen now. I'm sure she'll be happy to oblige--right after the president demonstrates his leadership on this issue."

So we can expect a site with all this information when she announces her run? I'll have to wait until then I guess.

Kansas City said...

It is absolutely insane that this issue has been kicking around for four years and he has not produced his birth certificate. There must be something embarassing on it, or perhaps it does not exist (although I believe Obama was born in Hawaii).

Did you now that his mother started school in Seattle, Washington 15 days after Obama's alleged birth? It may be that he was born earlier.

Jack Cashill has written a terrific book, Deconstructing Obama.

The most interesting, and I think the most plausible, Cashill theory is that Barack Obama Sr. is not really Obama's father. He is a "beard" who provided a father to the child of a young white girl (Ann Dunham) who was knocked up by a black guy, probably family friend and communist Frank Marshall Davis. Davis also is probably the photographer who took the nude photos of Obama's mother.

http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/10/facing-naked-truth-about-stanley-ann.html

Now, on the one hand, does any of this matter? What Cashill demonstrates is that Obama basically a largely fictional narrative of his life. But politicians have been doing that for over 200 years in this country. But what really matters is that the media has allowed Obama to thrive off this narrative, without any serious inquiry.

Mark said...

Again, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, along with the Republican Governor at the time have verified that the COLB is valid IAW the source documents.

Did I say otherwise? I'm not saying anyone in Hawaii is lying. (IAW? Not sure what that acronym means - expand please.)

What I'm saying is that an M.D. signed something at some point that a baby was born, with details about the birth along with info taken from the mom.

Again, there are good reasons to protect the original document from legal inspection. It may even be standard operating procedure (I think it should be).

This obfuscation isn't on Hawaii, it's on Obama.

CachorroQuente said...


Again, the COLB is an extract, taken from the original (assuming it exists). In court the original would be required to establish and verify the COLB.


I doubt that's true. I would suspect that in court a state would be required to verify its official records in the manner and form provided for by the laws and procedures of the state unless there were put forth some question about the accuracy of the evidence provided. Then it would require some sort of confirmation that the records were proper which might not include presentation of a copy of any particular form. In other words, if someone challenged the accuracy of the place of Obama's birth, testimony by a records custodian that the records did indicate Obama's state of birth might be sufficient.

What would happen if a state destroyed all paper birth certificates when the records were put in digital form and that scans of the certificates were not made part of the official records. Would a person from one of those states be denied access to the presidential ballot because a certified image of the original birth certificate could not be provided even though the official records had all the information?

Is there a constitutional or federal requirement that a long-form birth certificate even needs to exist in order to verify the states' records?

36fsfiend said...

Mark,

IAW is for "in accordance with"

"What I'm saying is that an M.D. signed something at some point that a baby was born, with details about the birth along with info taken from the mom."

And what I'm saying is the Director of Health and the Governor have looked at this information and determined the COLB is valid IAW this information. Why should I not trust a Republican Governor on this issue?

Leo Ladenson said...

So we can expect a site with all this information when she announces her run? I'll have to wait until then I guess.


I saw a comment on another blog today that said, the only answer lefties have these days is "Palin."

I didn't want to think that was true, but you've giving me doubts.

Fen said...

Why should I not trust a Republican Governor on this issue?

Thats poor logic - implying that because the Gov is a member of opposition party, it naturally follows that he wouldn't be party to a cover-up on Obama's behalf.
Party loyalty is not the only motivator.

CachorroQuente said...

Are you implying that there is a document, like birth certificate, behind this COLB? If such document exists, why can't that simply be provided at the request of Obama? The "take the governor's word for it" approach concerning the presence of more legit documents isn't very convincing.

I am saying that the official records of the State of Hawaii, probably in some digital form, support the information that is on the COLB. I presume that the foundation is some sort of birth certificate, but I don't know that for a fact and I don't think it's important.

36fsfiend said...

Leo Ladenson,

I'm actually not a "leftie" Always voted Republican until the 2008 election and then abstained.

I don't know were my party is going with this birth certificate issue but I don't believe it's going to help the GOP in 2012.

Fen said...

"There is no controversy."

"There are no American soldiers in Baghdad."

"The science is settled"

"There is no controversy."

shiloh said...

Leo, as it's a free country, you are truly allowed to be totally obsessed/absorbed w/Barack Huseein Obama!

Yes, many Reps still haven't recovered from/reconciled losing the 2008 election to a bi-racial African/American Muslim from Kenya!

How could someone about whom so little is known--and whose middle name was apparently a slur--be elected president of the United States? I may never understand that.

Indeed you won't as indicated by this thread.

Obama mentioned to Hillary during one of the debates how he had "fooled" so many primary voters and then he "fooled" (((69.5 million))) voters in the general election. 7.5 million more than cheney/bush got in 2004.

The American voters are so damn gullible to elect a Barack Hussein Obama president of a country who usually elects presidents w/waspy names ie Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Carter, Clinton ...

Surely witchcraft was involved!

take care

Fen said...

I don't know were my party is going with this birth certificate issue but I don't believe it's going to help the GOP in 2012.

Ignore politics adn how it will hurt your party, think precedent instead.

Do you agree with the Constitution re the eligibility requirements for a presidential candidate?

If so, how should they be enforced? On the word of some doctor or Governor in Hawaii?

36fsfiend said...

Fen,

"Thats poor logic - implying that because the Gov is a member of opposition party, it naturally follows that he wouldn't be party to a cover-up on Obama's behalf."

I assume our elected officials carry out their duties in accordance with their oath of office that they swear to. Given the contentiousness of thus issue, I feel Gov Lingle would have addressed it honestly. Maybe I'm given her too much credit as a Republican?

CachorroQuente said...


Unless something fell through the cracks, is seems like only one document in the form of a COLB has been presented. Again...are we led to assume that there are more documents that exist behind this?


Yes, the official records of the state of Hawaii in whatever form they happen to be.

36fsfiend said...

Fen,

"Do you agree with the Constitution re the eligibility requirements for a presidential candidate?"

Yes.

"If so, how should they be enforced? On the word of some doctor or Governor in Hawaii?"

Again, as a retired military officer, I believe our elected officials carry out their duties in accordance with their oath of office that they swear to as I did with my oath. Given the contentiousness of thus issue, I feel Gov Lingle would have addressed it honestly.

Mark said...

"And what I'm saying is the Director of Health and the Governor have looked at this information and determined the COLB is valid IAW this information. Why should I not trust a Republican Governor on this issue?"

Because we still haven't seen the damned original document?

Legally sufficient does not equate to complete. I'm satisfied Obama is a citizen. I'm satisfied that Hawaii has shown everything it is required to show. I believe that Hawaii has shown everything it is legally allowed to show. I'm confident that legally speaking you're on solid ground.

I'm also sure we don't have the complete picture. I'm equally sure you're sure about this as well, but that's where debate turns into pure politics.

You win, maybe. That's politics too.

CachorroQuente said...

And why have all the courts in this case turned the matter into one of "standing" to avoid the underlying question.

I presume to avoid the circus of giving these people the platform to present their crackpottery. I wish they would throw the suits out for being frivolous instead. Run up their legal bills.

CachorroQuente said...


Why are you so quick to marginalize people for wanting to know whats in Obama's past?


I'm not.

I am aware of no real controversy about where Obama was born. All these people going bonkers because they haven't seen a copy of some "long form" birth certificate are trying to stir up a controversy where there is none. There is no good reason to doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii, the only legitimate question that could be answered by looking at a "long form" birth certificate. All this speculation about race on the certificate or religion on the certificate or unknown father on the certificate or whatever else, it has nothing at all to do with Obama's qualifications/suitability.

Those people deserve to be marginalized.

As for other information about Obama's past, there's plenty of it out there. Perhaps he has kept a good bit of it secret, but that's his choice. Perhaps he felt it was better to get into arguments about foreign and domestic policy rather than how good a kick ball pitcher he was when seven.

Of course, then there are the subtle and not so subtle conspiracy theories about his past some of which we have seen evidence of right here.

Mark said...

As for other information about Obama's past, there's plenty of it out there. Perhaps he has kept a good bit of it secret, but that's his choice. Perhaps he felt it was better to get into arguments about foreign and domestic policy rather than how good a kick ball pitcher he was when seven.

Remember when Obama promised the most transparent administration ever?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Us not-rubes didn't believe it when he decided to "keep a good bit" of his past secret. You sycophants (and the occasional Axelrod employee) aren't making a dent in the returning tide.

Make your excuses, but rats hide in holes.

shiloh said...

The truth is out there ...

Mark said...

It is, Shiloh.

I'm really not concerned about what Obama was hiding before he was elected. That's a cross people who voted for him and now regret it have to bear. But the Obama Era as a whole will provide a wealth of teachable moments to the future.

This is of course assuming massive debt, casual acceptance of the Bush Doctrine, G.E. calling the shots vis-a-vis economic policy, expanded anti-terrorism powers, concomitant reduction in domestic civil liberies, continuing massive unemployment, and accelerating inflation in working-class commodities; don't work to Obama's advantage.

History loves a winner. Hates a loser.

Kansas City said...

The issue on the birth certificate is not primarily a legal one. The guy works for the people. She should show them some respect by producing his birth certicate. Trump is just saying what the common sense person would say - just produce the stupid birth certificate.

You know, in Dreams, Obama actually writes that he had found his birth certificate in going through some old papers. He is covering up something.

T J Sawyer said...

Before putting too much faith in the short form birth certificates of various states, one ought to consider the following:

In the case of an adoption, a state will produce a new birth certificate with an "official lie" about who the child's parents are. It works quite well for obtaining a passport but doesn't prove much of anything.

Thus, the great curiosity about seeing the so-called long form birth certificate for president 44.

My own knowledge of how far the "official lie" process goes is pretty limited. If one adopts a baby born in say, Korea, will a state issue a birth certificate stating that the baby was born in the U.S.? If so, well, you can just let your imagination run wild with what is possible.

O, what a tangle web we weave ...

shiloh said...

That's a cross people who voted for him and now regret it have to bear.

On the bright side ;) I didn't vote for Nixon who resigned in disgrace and didn't vote for cheney/bush either time.

Elections come down to choices and not that I would have voted for him in any event, but when McCain, who was/is clueless re: economics, suspended his campaign to rush back to Washington to help his clueless buddy ;), Bush, solve the economic crisis ~ that was pretty much the clincher in the presidential campaign.

ie Obama cool, calm, collected ~ McCain compulsive, irrational, flailing incoherently. It was rather sad how McCain had to do a 180 re: issues from his 2000 campaign to attain the 2008 nomination.

That mavericky maverick!

History loves a winner. Hates a loser.

Interesting Truman had a 22% Gallup job approval rating Feb. 1952 and has been rated as high as the 5th greatest president of all time in 2008 by historians.

And of course Bush went from 90% Sept. 2001 to 25% Oct. 2008

but, but, but daddy was worse lol in a span of (17) months Bush41 went from 89% Feb. 1991 to 29% July 1992.

All fame is fleeting ...

Lem said...

Not to criticize but this post, however distant from directly addressing the subject of Obamas place of birth it might be, seems to have ignited more commentary than the previous post on Obamas war of aggression.

I'm just saying.. Birthers are people too.

Revenant said...

The issue on the birth certificate is not primarily a legal one. The guy works for the people. She should show them some respect by producing his birth certicate.

Even if Obama has a copy of his Hawaiian birth certificate, it isn't in his political interests to produce it. So long as he fails to produce it, his political enemies will persist in making fools of themselves in public.

Meanwhile, he and his supporters can quite rightly point out that his opponents are a pack of loony tunes.

Why would he want that to end?

Michael said...

Revenant:
"So long as he fails to produce it, his political enemies will persist in making fools of themselves in public."

This argument is silly. If, at last, he produced such a document the only reaction from the "fools" would be: so, why didn't you produce it sooner if you had it. The whole world would agree.

Mick said...

36fsfiend said...

" So Dr. Fukino, the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, who verified the certificate of live birth is valid, was involved in some kind of conspiracy while working for Governor Lingle? The State of Hawaii has issued a falsified document?"



Yes, and she has since resigned. Some Senators made reference to the "raised seal" on the Hi. COLB, which is required by Hi. law, as proof of the legitimacy of the COLB. It turns out that it is an INCISED seal, not raised, and the seal resembles, but is not the actual seal of Hi.

http://obamasgarden.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/chicago-thugs-vs-the-founders-2/

http://obamasgarden.wordpress.com/about/facts-about-the-hdoh-official-seal/

Further the "COLB" is an intermediary document, that is in the process of being ACCEPTED by the official Registrar of Hi., as it is it is only "FILED", not "ACCPTED".

http://obamasgarden.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/proof-it-was-in-front-of-our-faces/


Lastly, it matters not WHERE Obama was born. He was born of a Kenyan Non Citizen, non US Resident father, who conferred on him the status of British Subject by the British Nationality Act of 1948. As such, Obama 2 is not a natural born Citizen (born in the US of US Citizen parents). The founders would have never allowed one born a British Subject (except themselves) to be POTUS.
I question Trump's motives here, as he is perpetuating the Conspiracy theory, when the facts in attendance already disqualify Obama.

Mick said...

Ann Althouse said...

"Look, if Erkle was born outside of the US, then it's to late to do anything about it. His presidency has been ratified by congress and I don't believe there is much that can be done about that."

I agree with respect to this term, but it could be made a political issue in the next campaign."



Wrong. There are Constitutional provisions for removing an ineligible POTUS. What's worse is that as a Constitutional Scholar, he knows full well his ineligibility, especially in light of the McCain Resolution 511 dog and pony show. They made McCain show his BC, and grilled him on his status of natural born Citizen, in a resolution (no force in law) SPONSORED by Obama, where they determined that McCain was born in US Controlled Territory (he wasn't, military bases are not considered US Territory; PCZ was leased) of 2 US CITIZEN PARENTS, and thus a natural born Citizen (he isn't either).
They also cited a Naturalization Act (1790) that was voided by the NA 1795!

Why is it racist to demand Obama to present his BC to authorities, when they did the same for McCain, and even D. Eisenhower:

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2011/03/president-dwight-eisenhower-had-to-file.html

We are talking about TREASON here Prof. Althouse, not some election code violation. The VERY RULE of LAW is being subverted in many ways
(look at the way the Primary Banks walk scott free after causing the second Great Depression (w/ the help of Obama)).

Mick said...

Revenant said...

"The issue on the birth certificate is not primarily a legal one. The guy works for the people. She should show them some respect by producing his birth certicate.

Even if Obama has a copy of his Hawaiian birth certificate, it isn't in his political interests to produce it. So long as he fails to produce it, his political enemies will persist in making fools of themselves in public.

Meanwhile, he and his supporters can quite rightly point out that his opponents are a pack of loony tunes.

Why would he want that to end?"


Wrong. It clouds the FACT that already makes him ineligible. He was born a British Subject due to his Kenyan father.

Fen said...

I am saying that the official records of the State of Hawaii, probably in some digital form, support the information that is on the COLB. I presume that the foundation is some sort of birth certificate, but I don't know that for a fact and I don't think it's important.

In other words, you don't really know what documents are involved. Thats why you've been so vague in your defense of Obama.

Freeman Hunt said...

I assume our elected officials carry out their duties in accordance with their oath of office that they swear to.

Heh.

Fen said...

"a government of laws and not of men."

But I guess if some authority in Honolulu says its okay, then...

Mick said...

Fen said...

""a government of laws and not of men."

But I guess if some authority in Honolulu says its okay, then..."



They have done nothing of the sort, and even the Gov. says there is no BC. Regardless, by the evidence already admitted, Obama is ineligible due to his Foreign father (Kenyan) conferring British Citizenship (Subject) on him by birth under control of the British Nationalization Act 1948.
That the founders (except for themselves, since they fought the Revolution) would think one born a Brit could be POTUS is simply ridiculous.
The VERY PURPOSE of the natural born Citizen requirement is to reduce the possibility of foreign influence, this is a FACT. If that is the case, how can one born of a foreign father, and possessing allegiance to Britain be a natural born Citizen, eligible to be POTUS?

Fen said...

Obama is ineligible due to his Foreign father (Kenyan) conferring British Citizenship (Subject) on him by birth under control of the British Nationalization Act 1948.

Sorry, but I don't believe its that simple. Either your information is wrong or you are leaving out a relevant qualifier in Article 2.

But I'm open to looking at any evidence or links you have.

Mick said...

Fen said...

"Obama is ineligible due to his Foreign father (Kenyan) conferring British Citizenship (Subject) on him by birth under control of the British Nationalization Act 1948.

Sorry, but I don't believe its that simple. Either your information is wrong or you are leaving out a relevant qualifier in Article 2.

But I'm open to looking at any evidence or links you have."



Only the term natural born Citizen is the qualifier, meaning that a natural born Citizen, born in the US owes no allegiance to any other foreign power. This has been the definition since the Constitution was ratified. It is verified by the very purpose of the requirement (prevent foreign entanglements), Natural Law, The Federalist Papers (#68), Dicta of the SCOTUS, by authors of the 14 Amendment (Bingham, Howard and Trumbull), as well as Laurence Tribe ("born WITHIN the Allegiance and Territory of a nation"), and Michael Chertoff ("if your parents are citizens, then you are naturally a natural born Citizen", at the Res. 511 Hearings, agreed to by Leahy).

"If a child is born in the US to a father who owes allegiance to a foreign power, that child also owes allegiance to that foreign power. This was always our law. It was US law at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, at the time Obama was born, and it is US law today. Nothing has changed."

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/justice-hugo-black-in-duncan-v-louisiana-indicates-obama-would-not-be-eligible-ineligibility-echoed-by-former-attorney-general-jeremiah-black/

“All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians.” (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 1639 (1862))---John Bingham

CachorroQuente said...

Oh great, now the illiteratti have arrived.

Revenant said...

Revenant:
"So long as he fails to produce it, his political enemies will persist in making fools of themselves in public."

This argument is silly. If, at last, he produced such a document the only reaction from the "fools" would be: so, why didn't you produce it sooner if you had it. The whole world would agree.

At this point, Michael, the vast majority of "the whole world" thinks the demands that Obama produce his birth certificate are retarded.

That's why it would be politically foolish for him to produce it. So long as he doesn't, idiots will keep asking idiotic questions, making him look better by default.

Revenant said...

"Meanwhile, he and his supporters can quite rightly point out that his opponents are a pack of loony tunes. Why would he want that to end?"

Wrong. It clouds the FACT that already makes him ineligible. He was born a British Subject due to his Kenyan father.

QED.

Mick said...

“All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians.” (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 1639 (1862))---- John Bingham, writer of the 14th Amendment

Almost Ali said...

Sitting in for Hardball's Chris Mathews tonight, Chuck (aka "Chuckles") Todd entered into a strange quandary with two of his fellow liberal pundits; they don't know what to make of Donald Trump joining the crazy birther movement. They are very perplexed over a man of Donald Trump's high public position and global respect - how he could be such an idiot. Because everyone KNOWS Mr Obama was born in Hawaii. Except, apparently, Donald Trump.

Still, they were very nervous about laughing outright, lest they too fall under the gaze of Mr Trump - whom they assume must be temporarily insane because everyone knows Mr Obama has provided his birth certificate at least a dozen times - although they did notice that Barry's birth certificate looks materially different from Donald's, the latter containing much more detail, his birth document being the original long form - as oppsed to Barry's short form, that is,
extract.

Still, Chuckles & Friends were trying to have fun, because they voted for the guy from Kenya.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The founders would have never allowed one born a British Subject (except themselves) to be POTUS.

"(except themselves)"

"(except themselves)"

"(except themselves)"

What horrible precedent setters!

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Thanks for the laughs, wingnuts.

Revenant said...

They are very perplexed over a man of Donald Trump's high public position and global respect - how he could be such an idiot.

Anyone perplexed at how Donald Trump could have said something idiotic is clearly not very familiar with Donald Trump. :)

Gary Rosen said...

"Thanks for the laughs, wingnuts."

Not nearly as funny as "kinetic military action". BO's got the "wingnuts" beat every which way when it comes to Steven Wright comedy.

Mick said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The founders would have never allowed one born a British Subject (except themselves) to be POTUS.

"(except themselves)"

"(except themselves)"

"(except themselves)"

What horrible precedent setters!

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Thanks for the laughs, wingnuts."



Obviously you don't know the purpose of the Grandfather clause. "or a Citizen, at the time of..."
was meant to grandfather those present at the Revolution in, since they knew that they, born British, were not natural born Citizens. The first natural born Citizen was Van Buren, born of US Citizens, after the Declaration of Independence in NY.
So you soldier on, whining and complaining about the Usurpers Policies (which are meant to overload and destroy our economy and government) when you have his kryptonite directly in front of you.

Mick said...

Almost Ali said...

"Sitting in for Hardball's Chris Mathews tonight, Chuck (aka "Chuckles") Todd entered into a strange quandary with two of his fellow liberal pundits; they don't know what to make of Donald Trump joining the crazy birther movement. They are very perplexed over a man of Donald Trump's high public position and global respect - how he could be such an idiot. Because everyone KNOWS Mr Obama was born in Hawaii. Except, apparently, Donald Trump.

Still, they were very nervous about laughing outright, lest they too fall under the gaze of Mr Trump - whom they assume must be temporarily insane because everyone knows Mr Obama has provided his birth certificate at least a dozen times - although they did notice that Barry's birth certificate looks materially different from Donald's, the latter containing much more detail, his birth document being the original long form - as oppsed to Barry's short form, that is,
extract.

Still, Chuckles & Friends were trying to have fun, because they voted for the guy from Kenya."



He provided nothing. A pic on a website is proof of nothing. The treasonous media continues to cover for Obama.

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