February 15, 2011

"Harvard historian Niall Ferguson schools MSNBC’s Mika on what has happened in Egypt and Obama’s incompetence."

Very intense:

266 comments:

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Bobby Dupea said...

Yes, the intensity of intelligence trumping cant.

Capt. Schmoe said...

What hath white guilt wrought us?

Mary said...

Wow. That's intense and definitive. From the clip, the others (I believe one of them was Mark Halperin) looked bewildered. What's really amazing is the way that Mika practically begs him to offer up some praise for Obama. Pathetic.

Almost Ali said...

And the lovely Mika was unphased. Except that Niall Ferguson denied her face-time.

Hagar said...

I think Professor Ferguson is misunderestimating the number of foreign policies we have; there is the White House, Hillary, at least two in the State Department, the Pentagon, and then we have the CIA and the NSA, and probably some others as well, such as the Coomerce Dept. and Agriculture, etc.

dont tread 2012 said...

Mika and her feeble attempt to fit what happened in Egypt with the flip-flopping of the Zero -

"Well, just looking at all the reports (she didn't mention Nic Robertson by name) and the pictures and the peacefulness, so far so good, I think it went pretty damn well."

In other words, though she didn't say it and we didn't hear about it, Obama may have held his breath, filled his pants, and said 'make it stop'. And it did.

Media flail!

Thats why MSNBC is the king of suck.

Almost Ali said...

Mika Brzezinski: Professional daughter.

victoria said...

What an arrogant pisher.Niall that is.

Vicki From Pasadena

Matt said...

No he doesn't school anyone. He is as shrill as many on the left were against Bush.

First he seems to think what has happened is Egypt is a bad thing. But he gives no indication what he thinks would be better.

Second, the instability he says happens with revolutions is true - but, again, sans any real alternative plans it means nothing and I think everyone [who is pro-democracy] prefers Mubarak to be gone. Revolutions do not usually have a back-up plan. This one now isn't too bad.

Third, the reason the military has taken over is to attempt to keep the Muslim brotherhood from taking control. It is the only way to keep them out of power and attempt to have a smooth transition.

Fourth, how can one say Obama has 'blown it' when in fact we have pretty much been on the sidelines - as we should be in this case. It is up to the Egyptian people. All we can do is try to keep the Muslim brotherhood from taking over. But we certainly cannot prop up some dictator who is friendly only to Israel either. It's tricky.

Fifth the idea that he says there is no organization is a hoot. If he was around during the Bush wars I think he could recall no organization in Afghanistan and for a while in Iraq. But it came around in Iraq. It will come around in Egypt.

victoria said...

I bet he changed the spelling of his name to make him sound more intelligent.

madawaskan said...

Niall for Sec of Def

Sec of State plus gawd damn that accent.

I.....

could.....

pass....

out.

You put Thune as President and I'm going to have to shower twice a day.

AJ Lynch said...

Mika is definitely in the Top Ten Arrogant Talking Heads.

Bobby Dupea said...

Yes, and what is first, second, and third rate? Our Secretary of State, whose foreign policy bona fides consist of being married to a man who was president, plus a few years in the Senate (as payback for not divorcing him for ... you know ... whatever), and a Secretary of Defense who in 1987, at the CIA said the Soviet Union remained a grave threat to the USA?

What astonishes is the astonishment of the panel-guy, who thinks Hilary Clinton ever did anything independently of her oddly priapic husband, and is therefore qualified to determine a global future. What, yeah?

chickelit said...

This is going to make POTUS hate Brits even more...

madawaskan said...

Seriously-Matt if you want to jump on the Mika Egypt- is-a-success-wagon-

I got a river for you, it's right up Egypt.

I also have about this two word rebuttal-

Rising Expectations.

Learn it , know it, fear it.

Essentially Egypt is far from settled.

Of course when it comes to the media on anything Obama-it's almost always premature.

Coketown said...

I just read Jeffrey Goldberg on the Atlantic's site explaining why Ferguson is ALL wrong on Egypt and why his arguments against Obama's handling of it is "deeply unconvincing." In turn, I found Goldberg's argument deeply unconvincing and rather ornery.

What is it about people with the last name 'Goldberg' that makes them into stubborn twats?

dont tread 2012 said...

@Matt

I call bullshit.

You are trying to sound like you know what you are talking about, using 'he seems', 'everyone', 'the only way', 'its tricky', then dragging out Bush. That's the tell.

Really?

You're no Robert Fibbs.

kent said...

CBS News' Lara Logan Assaulted During Egypt Protests

SMGalbraith said...

The best point was the Obama Administration's short-sighted decision to cut off funding and our relationship with pro-democracy groups in the country.

As Ferguson pointed out, when the East European dictators fell, the US and those countries had pro-democratic institutions and organizations ready to step in.

In Egypt, so far, they don't seem to be around. At least yet.

The complaint against the "neocons" was that they used hard power when the US needed to use soft power to remove dictators.

Well, this is an example of the US failing to use softpower for our advantage.

Point Ferguson.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Matt: First he seems to think what has happened is Egypt is a bad thing. But he gives no indication what he thinks would be better.

If it was a good thing or a bad thing is irrelevant. He's saying Obama is refusing to deal with the possibility that something bad MIGHT happen, because the only excuse the president has for his amateur behavior is that "everything worked out all right". They can't even admit they made a mistake and take steps to see it doesn't happen again!

Almost Ali said...

Hey, this is about Mika! At MSNBC, it's always about Mika! She's the star, without whom the world would be reduced to a burnt out cinder. Such is her vital-ness.

So shut the hell up and keep the camera on Mika!

MadisonMan said...

He certainly takes control of the conversation. Why are the other people even there on the screen?

The video, those, has been edited, so I'm wondering what's in the cuts.

Ankur said...

Those damn leftist academicians in their intellectual iv(or)y towers!

Palladian said...

It's been fun to watch so-called liberals thrilled and pleased that a revolution ended in the imposition of a military government.

Power to the... military government! Right on!

Ankur said...

The people of egypt sure seems to be thrilled, palladian.

I am sure you know what they should want...better than they do.

Hagar said...

What Ferguson is saying is that the MSM's jubilation over the events in Egypt is way premature and attributing them to the O's diplomacy very risky (for them, that is).

And Mika & Friends must not yet have heard what happened to Lara Logan.

madawaskan said...

Matt

Wait....

shrill?

You do realize he was on MSNBC?

I think you need to go recalibrate.

Ankur said...

Hagar makes a valuable point.

Egypt's path to democracy isn't over yet. A 30 year dictatorship has been removed. But what next? Until there are elections - free elections WITHOUT outside interference - we won't really know how this thing ends.

So, while I think it is right to be cautiously optimistic - it is far to premature to be exultant. But that is just my personal take. Call me a cynic.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

OMG. I love this man.

Not only is he intelligent, educated and good looking: he took them to task using that cool accent that makes even stupid stuff sound smart. He just bitch slapped the entire worthless crew of Morning Joe in the face.

Mika was doing an impression of Jackie Gleason when he was caught in a trick. Humina humina humina.....eeeer.

Obama's administration is staffed by a bunch of clueless frat boys. They can't do the most basic things in foreign policy without either being insulting or revealing their stupidity.

madawaskan said...

Oops!

I had to go look at his wiki...

o.m.g. he took on Krugman.

*Swoon*

dont tread 2012 said...

@Ankur

You're a cynic.

Any path to 'democracy' taken by Egypt will not be the kind of democracy we know.

Free elections without outside interference?

You may be a bit naive as well.

mesquito said...

Poor Mika. It taxes her professional skills when she is required to do more than roll her eyes at Joe it mock disgust.

Ankur said...

I might come across as hypocritical here, because I just said I don't want outside interference - but I WOULD like interference to the extent that one can ensure a western style democracy. Not an iran style theocratic democracy, or a pakistan style democracy where you only stand a chance of being elected if you are muslim, or a malaysian style democracy where the constitution has islamic tenets within it.

A secular democracy, western style, where there is a distinct separation between church and state - now that would be good.

One can dream.

cubanbob said...

Ankur a thirty year dictatorship has not been removed as yet. The Army still runs the show. All that happened was the mouth piece was fired and his replacement has not been installed.

garage mahal said...

OMIGOSH. Totally dreamy!

dont tread 2012 said...

@Ankur


"A secular democracy, western style, where there is a distinct separation between church and state - now that would be good.

One can dream."

Really? OMG.

A million heads, and two million eyes, rolling.

Please. Back away from the crack pipe.

Palladian said...

" The people of egypt sure seems to be thrilled, palladian."

So what? It's early, no one knows what's going to happen, and "the people" could be wrong. Just because "the people" like the outcome doesn't mean it's good for the world or something we should uncritically support. "The people" in Germany were thrilled by Hitler, "the people" of Iran were thrilled by the Khomeinists. "The people" often support terrible things, which is why our government is a constitutional republic rather than a democracy.

"I am sure you know what they should want...better than they do."

So suddenly you internationalist liberals have become strict isolationists, and forbid any engagement with and opinion about the affairs of the "international community"? Well, shove it. The rest of the world seems to have no problem expressing their opinions and ideas about our country, and rightfully so. In turn, I have no reservations expressing my opinion about their countries.

Sensible people who respect human liberty and desire to see all the world live in freedom should be cautious about supporting a military coup and more than a bit worried about the future of an amazing and proud but unstable country like Egypt.

Almost Ali said...

He just bitch slapped the entire worthless crew of Morning Joe in the face.

Please, it's Morning Mika.

And seldom did a crew deserve such a bitch-slapping. Especially the Mika-whipped RINO, Morning Joe.

Mimi said...

His current girlfriend is none other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Which probably means the Progs hate him already.

William said...

The left is as sanguine about revolutions as they claim the right is about going to war. Everyone on the left who claims that wars have unexpected consequences and cause the spilling of innocent blood should consider that the same thing can be said of revolutions. Those revolutions in our time that have been successful--eastern Europe, South Korea, the Phillipines--were successful because they were initiated and brought to fruition by those who wanted western rights. I am not at all sure that this is true of northern Africa. I don't blame Obama for being confused in a confusing situation. However, to portray the present situation as being the best of all possible worlds and in any way the result of Obama's skilled statemanship is a bit much. That part of the world has had any number of revolutions, and none can be counted as successful.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"OMIGOSH. Totally dreamy!"

@Garage

Yes. You should take notes...perhaps one day you too can get laid. Perhaps.

lemondog said...

Some facts. Not a reassuring situation. Other than falling oil exports Egypt has little in the way of exports and a great need for food imports.

Egypt's Warning: Are You Listening?

Population 1960: 27.8 million
Population 2008: 81.7 million
Current population growth rate: 2% per annum (a 35-year doubling rate)
Population in 2046 after another doubling: 164 million

Rainfall average over whole country: ~ 2 inches per year
Highest rainfall region: Alexandria, 7.9 inches per year
Arable land (almost entirely in the Nile Valley): 3%
Arable land per capita: 0.04 Ha (400 m2)
Arable land per capita in 2043: 0.02 Ha
Food imports: 40% of requirements
Grain imports: 60% of requirements

Net oil exports: Began falling in 1997, went negative in 2007
Oil production peaked in 1996
Cost of oil rising steeply
Cost of oil and food tightly linked

chickelit said...

"The people" often support terrible things, which is why our government is a constitutional republic rather than a democracy.

Even so, "the people" (a majority even--our hostess included) were thrilled by Obama.

Almost Ali said...

His current girlfriend is none other than Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Whose current girlfriend?

Coketown said...

I concur with everyone saying he's a stud muffin.

I also think blaming or attributing anything regarding Egypt to Obama is nonsense. His response to the events was amateur at best, but regardless of who he sides with or what he said, the events would have unfolded the same. To say Obama affected Egypt in any way, negative or positive, is like saying Obama is responsible when canaries fart in Santiago. I suspect that if Egypt turns out well, he'll take credit for it; and if it fails, he'll blame it on the "tired old Bush doctrine of democracy in the Middle East."

dont tread 2012 said...

@Almost

Niall Ferguson.

Almost Ali said...

Dont Tread 2012, Thanks.

Now I'm doubly impressed with Ferguson.

Ankur said...

"Just because "the people" like the outcome doesn't mean it's good for the world or something"

Yup, there it is again. The classic "democracy for me but not for thee" paternalism once again.

Matt said...

Jason (the commenter)

How does he [or you] know that Obama has refused to deal with the possibility that something bad MIGHT happen?

I mean, are you kidding? Do you think that just because Obama appears confident [as he should btw] that he is not aware things can go badly in Egypt?

What the heck do you expect him to do? Stand up and talk to the American people like Niall Ferguson does? That would really work well....

I will agree that it seems the Obama administration did not or does not have a plan in place for Egypt but note that Niall Ferguson says in the full interview [over on MSNBC.com] that plans for the future of a country have to be laid down years in advance. And that means that if he is blaming the Obama administration then he should too be blaming the Bush administration for not having a plan that they could pass on to Obama. [I’m not saying blame Bush – I’m just taking his argument to its logical conclusion. We could blame Clinton too].

Revolutions are not predictable and their outcomes are not either. But the only option Niell seems to think would work is to insure that anybody except the Muslim brotherhood should be in power in Egypt. Which means he pretty much wants Mubarik back in power because he is a dictator who has been friendly to the US for years.

Short of that we cannot and should not just prop up a dictator in the region. Although we may have to….

Lisa said...

Anyone with any knowledge of the Middle East who was honest would agree with his analysis.

Only those with an agenda would disagree.

Hope for the best but call up the reserves.

former law student said...

Just another bitter Brit wondering why God gave so much power and wealth to the undeserving Yanks.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

What the heck do you expect him to do? Stand up and talk to the American people like Niall Ferguson does? That would really work well....

You mean, talk to us like we are adults who do not believe the world runs on unicorn farts or that money grows on trees in the back yard?

Yes. That would be a nice change.

Fred4Pres said...

Protein Wisdom had this the other day.

But the more it is out there the better.

Pogo said...

With Obama, it seems we've gone from Andy Griffith to Don Knotts.

Fred4Pres said...

Egyptians should listen to Glenn Beck and stockpile food.

Beevalo said...

I like to watch Morning Joe as I get ready for the day. They are so soothing and sure -- as opposed to the pinball of Fox & Friends.

The Morning Joe crew knows they are the "smartest" and the most "nuanced" and the most tempered "centrists" with dulcet voices.

Their confidence is eclipsed only by the degree of their vapidness, ignorance, and loyalty to the regime.

How anyone can think the Administration handled the Egyptian crisis well was not paying attention. US foriegn policy during this crisis was at best muddled, wildly inconsistent, and dangerously slow (punting and/or voting present is not an option in foreign policy).

Hopefully, the outcome will be positive, but it is far too early to tell. That said, nobody should be taking any victory laps just yet -- not the administration and certainly not their sycophants in the media.

former law student said...

Egyptians should listen to Glenn Beck and stockpile food.

And what will they use for funds? From a commie website:

The vast majority of Egyptians depend on bread for 70 percent of their calories and protein, and some reports say more bread is eaten per person in Egypt than in any other country.

The subsidized bread ration has got to keep showing up, for Egypt to stay in the same spot.

And hey, Niall, didn't Zbigniew Brzezinski just do a great job managing the transition between the Shah-ruled Iran (our puppet as you may recall) and the Ayatollah-ruled Iran? Hard to imagine HRC doing any worse.

Almost Ali said...

as opposed to the pinball of Fox & Friends.

Good point. Actually, rather perfect.

Almost Ali said...

Hard to imagine HRC doing any worse.

No it's not.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

And hey, Niall, didn't Zbigniew Brzezinski just do a great job managing the transition between the Shah-ruled Iran (our puppet as you may recall) and the Ayatollah-ruled Iran?

I think that was sort of his point. Don't take it for granted that it all turned out "damned" fine and everything is hunky dory. This can and probably will still turn out badly, not matter how much Obama pixie dust the media wants to sprinkle upon it.

Hard to imagine HRC doing any worse.

And...yet...sadly....we can.

Matt said...

Dust Bunny Queen

Niall Ferguson believes Europe would have been better off if England would have not entered the war and Germany had won WW1.

Niall Ferguson thinks Henry Kissinger - who orchestrated war crimes in Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh and Timor and who supported Pinochet's crimes against the people of Chile - was a great Secretary of State.

What a joke.

You want fantasy land, lies and propoganda? Follow Ferguson who lives in an alternative rich, white, scholarly universe already.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Matt

Citations.

Or as they say in some circles....screen shots or it didn't happen.

former law student said...

I like this grading on a curve. So if Egypt becomes a Muslim theocracy, seizing and imprisoning all Westerners, that would be fine, because that's where Brzezinski set the bar with Iran's revolution.

Brian O'Connell said...

DBQ: Obama's administration is staffed by a bunch of clueless frat boys.

No, no, no. The Bush administration was staffed by a bunch of clueless frat boys.

The Obama administration is staffed by a bunch of clueless college professors.

former law student said...

B O'C: you forgot Bush's other wife, college prof Condoleeza Rice.

former law student said...

If the Brits had managed the Middle East better when they ran it we wouldn't have the problem of Israel surrounded by people who hated its guts today.

Maguro said...

I like this grading on a curve. So if Egypt becomes a Muslim theocracy, seizing and imprisoning all Westerners, that would be fine, because that's where Brzezinski set the bar with Iran's revolution.

Yeah, well, Brzezinski wanted President Carter was to push the Shah to declare martial law and crack down on the demonstrators, advice that fell on deaf ears. Instead, Carter vacillated, waffled and flip-flopped throughout the whole ordeal and we wound up with about the worst possible outcome.

Remind you of anyone?

chickelit said...

former law student said...
If the Brits had managed the Middle East better when they ran it we wouldn't have the problem of Israel surrounded by people who hated its guts today.

Yeah, we'd just have Palestine and tolerant dhimmitude everywhere.

If your hypothesis is that Israel causes its own hatred, why don't you just state it?

edutcher said...

Apparently, The Zero isn't exactly covering himself with glory on his second try with Iran, either.

former law student said...

If the Brits had managed the Middle East better when they ran it we wouldn't have the problem of Israel surrounded by people who hated its guts today.

Try reading a little history. The Brits never "ran" much of the Middle East for very long - Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine from 1919 to 1950 or so, Egypt, only in the sense of foreign policy, about 1875 - 1955 at most. And British institutions (law and elections) were never made a way of life.

In India, they were imposed for 200 years and it pretty much worked. It takes time for these things to become part of a way of life

Revenant said...

Niall Ferguson believes Europe would have been better off if England would have not entered the war and Germany had won WW1.

I hadn't heard that argument before, but it sounds interesting.

It is certainly hard to think of anything *good* that came out of England's entry into WW1. Or America's, for that matter.

former law student said...

The Brits never "ran" much of the Middle East for very long - Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine from 1919 to 1950 or so

Try from 1882.

Egypt, only in the sense of foreign policy, about 1875 - 1955 at most.

I see the Muslim Brotherhood dates back to when the Brits still had effective control over Egypt. Ha!

Ut said...

"Only those with an agenda would disagree."

Mika reports from New York, where she's safe from being raped by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hardly surprising that she can't see what's going on a little closer to the ground.

former law student said...

Remind you of anyone?

So Obama should have invaded Egypt to keep Mubarak on his throne?

The Shah was done for. By 1977 the inability of the US to keep puppets on thrones should have been manifest.

we'd just have Palestine and tolerant dhimmitude everywhere.

A "dhimmi" is a monotheist, not a pagan. Are you a pagan?

The original deal was to resettle Palestinians in Jordan. How did that work out for everybody?

Shanna said...

Revolutions like this don't usually lead to "Happy clappy democracies". Heh.

Scary stuff. That blond chick's tone of voice at the start of the clip was hilarious, though. "Everyone in the entire world says Obama is awesome and you're telling me you disagree?" Shock. Horror. But she's just a talking head and can't really refute anything that guy is saying.

David said...

Apparently MSNBC did not plan very well either. Their feed of the video keeps crashing.

Niall Ferguson is not some right wing poop thrower. He's one of the best informed people in the world about modern history. The news babe could not have been more out of her league.

Meanwhile, Obamas's budget is silent on entitlement reform and the Iranian parliament is calling for the execution of protest leaders in that country.

And speaking of out of one's league, Obama is President for two more years. At least.

former law student said...

Substitute headline: Refugee malcontent from failed empire bitches and moans about leadership of adopted country.

What does Ferguson think about McDonald's hamburgers, I wonder.

Maguro said...

The Shah was done for. By 1977 the inability of the US to keep puppets on thrones should have been manifest.

Oh, I thought we still had a few puppets around. In any case, Brzezinski's recommendations weren't adopted so it seems strange to blame him for what happened.

chickelit said...

A "dhimmi" is a monotheist, not a pagan. Are you a pagan?

Why no, are you?

(and lol'ing at your attempt to change the topic)

former law student said...

He's one of the best informed people in the world about modern history.

In his case, hindsight is 20-20.

An understanding of modern history would include acknowledging a century of British cockups in the Middle East.

Maguro said...

The original deal was to resettle Palestinians in Jordan. How did that work out for everybody?

Well, Palestinians do make up about 60% of Jordan's population so maybe they should get self-determination, eh? It could solve the whole problem. And really, what have the Hashemites ever done to deserve their own country?

Matt said...

Dust Bunny Queen

Dust Bunny Queen

When people on comment boards start asking for citations for things that are easy to verify I know I have begin to win the argument.

The facts about Kissinger are hardly worth citing since they are obvious. The fact about Ferguson's views on World War I are very easy to find.

This doesn't delegitimize his views on Obama. But it just shows that he has a point-of-view that should be considered. It would be like if you heard Paul Krugman criticizing Bush you wouldn't just take it as face value.

Although I will give Ferguson some points for saying Bush's policy in Iraq was bad. [Which you can hear him say on the full interview over on MSNBC.com].

former law student said...

Brzezinski's recommendations weren't adopted so it seems strange to blame him for what happened.

So if I give you useless advice, it's not my fault as long as you don't take it. Where's the quality control in that?

Belkys said...

He know something abot Islam. he is amrried to Ali

former law student said...

Maguro: There are now three generations of Palestinians sitting in refugee camps. Consider instead that they had all been peaceably resettled before Israel came into being.

Maguro said...

So if I give you useless advice, it's not my fault as long as you don't take it. Where's the quality control in that?

How do you know it was useless advice? It wasn't followed.

Carter actually made the decisions, why not blame him? Why does the buck stop at the National Security Advisor whose advice got ignored?

edutcher said...

former law student said...

The Brits never "ran" much of the Middle East for very long - Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine from 1919 to 1950 or so

Try from 1882.


Try again. All that was part of the Ottoman Empire in '82. Lawrence of Arabia, siege of Kut, all that.

Wot?

You may be thinking of the beginning of full British occupation in Egypt. Egypt's indemnities in the 1870s created a situation much like Mexico's in the 1860s. Gradual takeover of Egypt's financial affairs began in the 1870s.


Egypt, only in the sense of foreign policy, about 1875 - 1955 at most.

I see the Muslim Brotherhood dates back to when the Brits still had effective control over Egypt. Ha!


Which signifies what? Internally, Egypt had its own ruler. The state of Egypt's finances and its effect on the people indicate they were at least as mad at him as anyone else. The Brotherhood didn't go out of business after '56.

Shanna said...

*Swoon*

Seriously. It looks like he's written some books too. I might have to check one out.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

When people on comment boards start asking for citations for things that are easy to verify I know I have begin to win the argument

You lazy fuck.

Why should I do your homework for you?

If you want to win the debate you'd better show that you have your facts behind you. Do your own research, I have other fish to fry.

Until you do, I will assume you are making shit up out of thin air and treat all of your utterances as deliberate lies and know that you are just blowing hot air out of your ass.

chickelit said...

@revenant...It is certainly hard to think of anything *good* that came out of England's entry into WW1.

I'll give you one: the Haber-Bosch process for making ammonia fertilizer. Necessitated by England's naval blockage of Imperial Germany, the process enabled the Green Revolution.

Did Haber also develop poison gas during the war too? oops! (he still got the Nobel in 1918).

former law student said...

So six years after exiting a pointless war in the Far East, America was going to eagerly enter a pointless war in the Middle East?

At least with Vietnam half the country, supposedly, was on our side. In Iran only one sick old man could be counted on, and he was in our country, anyway.

Maguro said...

Maguro: There are now three generations of Palestinians sitting in refugee camps. Consider instead that they had all been peaceably resettled before Israel came into being.

Let them settle in Jordan. Change the name to Palestine and it's all good. The Hashemites would be fucked, but nobody cares about them anyway.

And let me remind you that all the Jews in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria etc. got kicked out of their homes too, but somehow those Jews aren't refugees anymore. Why do you think that is?

jr565 said...

Matt wrote:
First he seems to think what has happened is Egypt is a bad thing. But he gives no indication what he thinks would be better.

Maybe not turning all power over to the military with no plans in place on how to transition to democracy nor any opposition leaders of any note who would be able to step forward and take on the muslim brotherhood, since someone is going to step into that vaccum. That is assuming of course that the military, which put Mubarek in in the first place don't simply hold power.

Fred4Pres said...

former law student said...
Egyptians should listen to Glenn Beck and stockpile food.

And what will they use for funds? From a commie website:

The vast majority of Egyptians depend on bread for 70 percent of their calories and protein, and some reports say more bread is eaten per person in Egypt than in any other country.

The subsidized bread ration has got to keep showing up, for Egypt to stay in the same spot.

And hey, Niall, didn't Zbigniew Brzezinski just do a great job managing the transition between the Shah-ruled Iran (our puppet as you may recall) and the Ayatollah-ruled Iran? Hard to imagine HRC doing any worse.

2/15/11 5:37 PM


I was being sarcastic. Yes most Egypitans (like more than half the population) are surviving hand to mouth. The bread there is very good though. Whole wheat pita. You would get a stack of ten for about a Egyptian pound or so or less than 30 cents US.

madAsHell said...

It's too bad that no one reads Newsweek.

What kind of numbers does Morning Joe pull?

ricpic said...

The Brits are freer than we are...our best and brightest that is. And even worse, it's a voluntary enslavement, devoutly desired. Bow down. Bow down best and brightest to your feygalah pharoah.

Maguro said...

So six years after exiting a pointless war in the Far East, America was going to eagerly enter a pointless war in the Middle East?

You're not even reading my comments.

What I said was: Yeah, well, Brzezinski wanted President Carter to push the Shah to declare martial law and crack down on the demonstrators.

Nowhere have I said that Brzezinski wanted to invade Iran. Nor did he ever suggest such a thing to Carter.

I suppose you're really misunderstanding on purpose as some kind of debating technique, but it's pretty lame.

PaulV said...

Look it up FSL, Ottoman Empire controlled Middle East until end of WWI.
You were wrong on dhimmi. too, unless you think hindi & buddhist are monothesis. What over schools did you flunk out of>

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Niall suffers under the illusion of his belief that America should try to behave more like an empire.

As a historian he has written many interesting ideas. Unfortunately they are often tendentious, tenuous and outright wrong.

I take it this will put him right up your alley. Enjoy.

former law student said...

those Jews aren't refugees

Unfortunately their Sephardi culture could not stand up to the Ashkenazis.

Robin said...

Ferguson really lays out reality and the stunned look on the vapid talking heads' faces is just comical.

Good work Niall.

Meanwhile his critics above have nothing substantive to say to defend the administration's amateurish work.

former law student said...

Ottoman Empire controlled Middle East until end of WWI.

For some values of "control."

You were wrong on dhimmi. too, unless you think hindi & buddhist are monothesis.

Hitler declared Japanese to be Aryans, for the same reasons.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I love this:

"It worked, has it not?"

Ferguson stutters and stammers in response.

The guy really does think that America should control the world. I guess he does lack faith in the idea that our ideals are universal and that people will come around to embracing them sooner or later.

Iron that steely fist.

garage mahal said...

Yes. You should take notes...perhaps one day you too can get laid. Perhaps.

British wingers are so yesterday.

Synova said...

If it "went well" or if it turns out well in the end with a more democratic and more free Egypt, it still is not any sort of proof that Obama is not incompetent.

Maybe someone else did something right. Are the people there really supposed to give over credit for their success or their failure to Obama?

Other people do exist in the world, you know.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I love the McCain Campaign talking point that he regurgitates at 3:43.

Note to Niall: Hillary tried that one too - a couple years ago.

And now she's Secretary of State. Blame her for the administration's actions.

Matt said...

Dust Bunny Queen

You are talking to yourself, clearly. Why should I do your homework for you. It is your job to read if you can. And, no, you don't have bigger to fry otherwise you would not be here making silly comments.

More importantly this is not a matter of homework. It is a matter of knowing shit, which almost everyone with an education knows. Don't blame your incompetence on others.

Next the bigger issue here is every administration has sugar coated things. Remember Bush's 'mission accomplished'?

You have to be extra thick in the head to think that liberals are won over by Obama’s sugar coating. I’ve been discussing Egypt with a good many friends and we are all pretty wary that it will turn out perfect.

But one thing we do know is that the US cannot micromanage the world. Conservatives think we can. Iran is the way it is today because of the actions we and the British did in that region in the 1950's.

Go look it up.

former law student said...

The Shah did declare martial law, for all the good it did. The only useful way to support him would have been military intervention.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Niall suffers under the illusion of his belief that America should try to behave more like an empire.

It seems to me that he is expressing dismay that the United States isn't act with some element of self preservation and prudence.

Our lack of engagement, premature celebrations, pom pom cheerleading by the MSM and our complete lack of forward thinking (for example: "what could possibly go wrong in this current temporary situation") is not only endangering ourselves, it is putting the entire Middle East in jeopardy and probably the rest of the world.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Obama should be more "competent" at forcing decisions on people around the world, I guess.

This is the reason you crazy cons are fighting the glibertarians over the scraps of the Retropublican Party.

Blue@9 said...

Whatever you think of Ferguson's analysis, you have to admit that Mika is just Comedy Gold on that show.

I mean, who says shit like this on a serious show: "the pictures and the peacefulness, so far so good, I think it went pretty damn well"? She really just belongs on The View, doesn't she?

Ut said...

"Niall suffers under the illusion of his belief that America should try to behave more like an empire."

Is this even a sentence? The "illusion of his belief?" What the fuck does that even mean?

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've seen written today. I feel stupider for having even come across it.

What drug are you taking, dude. Because I want some.

Fucking maroon.

Revenant said...

When people on comment boards start asking for citations for things that are easy to verify I know I have begin to win the argument.

If you want anyone ELSE to figure out that you're winning the argument you should probably go ahead and offer the supporting evidence. :)

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It seems to me that he is expressing dismay that the United States isn't act with some element of self preservation and prudence.

By abstaining from dictating the decisions other nations and their people will make? That's an incoherent chin-scratcher if ever I've heard one. To refuse to resort to some knee-jerk impulse of ordering and bullying others around is precisely what it means to exercise prudence in this world.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ut calls other people morons while denying that beliefs can be based on illusions.

Looks like he's revealed himself to be the fucking moron today.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ut seems to think that if you believe something, it must be true. It can't be an illusion because, you know, you believe it.

I believe Ut has his head stuck up his ass.

And by his own logic, until he provides visual evidence to the contrary, that must therefore be true.

Because I believe it, it is no illusion. It is fact.

Witness the mind of a Fox News viewer at work.

Ut said...

"By abstaining from dictating the decisions other nations and their people will make?"

Barack Obama Monday: "Mubarak is not a dictator."
Barack Obama Tuesday: "Mubarak must step aside."

Hardly abstaining, dude.
Obama actively supported the dictator with $2 billion in foreign aid a year to help the repression along until it became obvious that the Egyptian people were going to kill the demented old fuck.

Then Obama threw him under a bus at the last second in a flailing attempt to claim some last bit of relevance.

Nobody bought it, and all he did was get a CBS reporter raped.

He looks worse than a moron. Neither side believes his crapola and now an innocent mother of two is in the hospital recuperating from her rape wounds thanks to Obama's support of Hosni Mubarak.

Obama is dangerous.

He gets people raped.

chickelit said...

On a positive note, I'm thinking that this will help Newsweek somehow and I also wonder if Tina Brown is smiling over this somewhere.

Synova said...

"Niall Ferguson believes Europe would have been better off if England would have not entered the war and Germany had won WW1."

Germany losing WW1 and what followed from that is generally considered to be the cause, outright, of the rise of Hitler (and thus the holocaust) and all of WW2 in Europe.

Is it really outrageous to suggest that "better" might have been something else?

I swear that sometimes people simply *try* to be as unthoughtful as possible.

jr565 said...

Interesting, THE most liberal of the dissidents is basically saying the camp david accords are for all intents and purposes dead.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2807.htm

It might fill some lefties hearts with joy that the evil zionists are finally going to get their comeuppance, only it doens't bode well when peace with Israel has either this guy or the Muslim Broherhood on the other end.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Is Obama also responsible for the rape of your mind that you just revealed to us, Ut?

You sure seem to put a lot on Obama.

Ambiguity is underappreciated in policy. Of course, the crazy cons can't tolerate ambiguity - about not only policy but about the world. But societies require it. It is an accurate picture of our state of knowledge of the world, and even of human societies and revolutions.

Don't you know that you can count me out, IN.

Hagar said...

This is odd.
Apparently the assault on Lara Logan happened Friday, and we only hear about it now, and then in the most perfunctory way.
Even from Katie Couric, who apparently had a very narrow escape herself in Cairo last week.

The MSM has not figured out what the narrative should be yet?

PSGInfinity said...

Matt,

Well If Germany had won WWI (esp. if Britain and America had stayed out) the Kaiser wouldn't have abdicated, mooting "Lucky Adi's" rise to power. There's one to the good, anyway.

As far as ol' Henry, you Leftists seem to ignore that Americans were trying to win. With their hands tied behind their backs. Pinochet committed no crimes against Chileans. Leftists, yes - no wait, I take that back. He did Justice (capital J) to Allende and all the rest

You want a war crime? AFAIC, 'rules of engagement' is a fertile field to investigate ... as is the Vietnam funding cutoff in '75.

wv: pognestu (Ceaucescu's nest?)

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Tolerating ambiguity and levels of certainty would make the cons less robot-like.

As long as they're going to embrace empire and a low regard for civil liberties, they should go back to their true mentor on their now favored politics: Machiavelli.

I can't imagine the author of The Prince hated ambiguity as badly as these followers do.

Synova said...

"Ambiguity is underappreciated in policy."

Is it?

I can see how it would be useful, at times, to employ ambiguity as a tactic. Though I can't imagine how ambiguity as a policy rather than ambiguity as a tactic can be anything other than a failure of leadership. Clarity has benefits as well.

But does anyone believe Obama is ambiguous as a considered tactic?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Just come right out and admit what you want: More CONTROL over the decisions made by the people of Egypt!

We are America: You must do as we say. No matter the issue.

Martha said...

Brian Williams on NBC Nightly News implied that Lara Logan's family wanted privacy at this time. Perhaps CBS News kept the story out of the news until another news source was about to break it.

Lara Logan remains in the hospital. So much for peaceful jubilant Egyptian protesters--unless Mubarak's thugs did this.

chickelit said...

@C4-BDH: Good think you didn't link to Lennon's "Imagine" as that would have exacerbated the conflict here.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Clearly telling the people of Egypt what they should do (which is, I suppose, your way of saying what WE WANT! [bangs fist for emphasis]) makes us directly responsible for whatever comes next.

The last century has taught us, if anything, that we don't need that burden.

Ferguson I forgive. He's a conservative Brit. And probably an unapologetic imperial one. An empire-lover. But you guys are (or claim to be) Americans. At some point you're supposed to believe in freedom, autonomy and local self-government. 'Least, that's what W. kept telling me.

Matt said...

Synova

Ferguson and WWI

Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. But it is also rather rosy if one doesn't consider all the facts.

But as someone who has done a good amount of reading on the Great War I can tell you that Ferguson's view of England and WWI seems a bit off.

Sure, maybe they should not have entered the war but there is just no way under the situation that England would have not entered the war. And gambling on Germany losing WWI without England entering the war is a risk few wanted to take.

Also, the rise of Hitler was not contingent upon England entering the war. The rise of Hitler was based on the policies Europe et.al had against Germany after the war that led to his rise. Suffice it to say it is all rather complex and I think Ferguson may be brushing with a broad stroke - but presenting an interesting 'what if...'.

Apparently, from what I have read, Ferguson is big on 'what if' scenarios. Which strikes me as ivory tower. And I know we have plenty of those on the left.

Synova said...

Also, I listened to the clip twice and I don't know how anyone is getting any idea that Ferguson thought that the US should be more involved much less imperialistic.

More *aware*, yes. More coherent, yes.

Other than that he seems to be trying to educate people as to how revolutions work, explaining that it's "early days" to be counting this one as a democratic success.

Perhaps people are commenting on other additional statements he's made rather than this interview.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Lennon had many things to say. Almost all of them very wise. Most of them way before their time.

He was ahead of the game, no doubt.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ferguson doesn't view us as a replacement for his beloved British Empire? No? His prescriptions wouldn't be necessarily imperialistic?

Read this.

Synova said...

I think it's pretty funny that in order to defend Obama against factual claims that he has an incoherent foreign policy it's necessary to pull an Urkle... "I meant to do that!"

Ut said...

"The MSM has not figured out what the narrative should be yet?"

They better figure it out quick or the Muslim Brotherhood will fuck it into them.

Barack Obama supported Hosni Mubarak with $2 billion a year and now CBS reporters are being raped because of it.

Pretty simple, really.

Support Obama ... get raped for it.

The media is waking up one reporter at a time.

edutcher said...

former law student said...

So six years after exiting a pointless war in the Far East, America was going to eagerly enter a pointless war in the Middle East?

At least with Vietnam half the country, supposedly, was on our side. In Iran only one sick old man could be counted on, and he was in our country, anyway.


Hardly pointless, given all the people murdered by the Commies, and South Vietnam was very different from the North so it was all the people in the one nation, but there were plenty of people in Iran who wanted a free, democratic society. Unfortunately, Jimmy Carter wanted a neo-Communist state like the one he supported in the Sandanistas' Nicaragua.

You need to get your history someplace other than Kos.

PS There were really 3 Vietnams, Tonkin, Annam, and Cochin China, something the Alinskyite lies neglected.

Ut said...

The definition of a liberal reporter is one that hasn't been raped yet because of Barack Obama's support of dictators.

Matt said...

PSGInfinity

If you call what Pinochet did to Allende - and to a good number of people in Chile - 'justice' then I don't see why you would be opposed to Castro or Mubarik or any of the dictators in the middle east or around the world.

Clearly, you think a good dictator is better than a democratically elected president.

Odd, but you have a right to think as you wish.

jr565 said...

Maguro wrote:
Let them settle in Jordan. Change the name to Palestine and it's all good. The Hashemites would be fucked, but nobody cares about them anyway.

Palestine is Jordan already.
First, Palestine was not a real country, it was a designation on a map. And it encompassed what is now Jordan as well as Israel. When Jordan was broken off it ended up being like 80% of what we know as historic Palestine (which again is simpy a geographical location on a map) And of course the majority of Palestinians to this day live in Jordan. So of course they could be settled there. It is Palestine. And of course when Palestine was a geoghraphical location it was the Jews that were the Palestinians. The Palestinians we now refer to as Palestinians were disparate arab groups who happened to reside in the area, along with pockets of Jews and Christians and a few other sects. The Muslim "Palestinians" already got the better deal considering Israel was intially going to be all of historic Palestine.
And of course after the 1948 war which the Muslims started when the Jews dared to establish their state (even though no Jew fought Against the Arabs when 80% of historic Palestine became Jordan) Jordan was the occupier of the West Bank and of course no "Palestinian" was demanding an end to the occupation. Why? Because the Jordanian Palestinian is indistinguishable from the west bank palestinian.
And of course when Hamas talks about Palestine they are referring to historic Palestine. If you look at the Hamas charter and their map of Palestine it's Jordan and israel. The whole idea that Palestinians need a state is in facta a sham.
They got 80% of Palestine already. If they want a right of return 80% of Palestine will house them a lot better than the west bank would.

Quaestor said...

victoria wrote: I bet he changed the spelling of his name to make him sound more intelligent.

Perhaps vicky can adopt a less conventional spelling for her name as well. It couldn't possibly hurt her reputation for probity.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Germany losing WW1 and what followed from that is generally considered to be the cause, outright, of the rise of Hitler (and thus the holocaust) and all of WW2 in Europe.

Is it really outrageous to suggest that "better" might have been something else?


There is an entire lucrative (and fascinating) genre of Alternate History novels that deal with the what ifs of this very theme.

So, for a historian such as Ferguson to speculate on a hypothetical outcome of a Germany WWI victory, is not beyond the pale. It isn't a nefarious plot. It is part of the occupation.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Guys, if we don't tell Egypt what to do, the Egyptian people might just end up doing what they want. Hell! They might actually embrace the idea of governing themselves!

Yo dog, fuck that shit. We are America. No roll over and fetch us a paper, Rover.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I see that Ut is fixedly enamored of this idea of democracy being nothing more than a rape of his beloved authoritarianism abroad.

jr565 said...

C4BDH wrote:
"Guys, if we don't tell Egypt what to do, the Egyptian people might just end up doing what they want. Hell! They might actually embrace the idea of governing themselves!

Yo dog, fuck that shit. We are America. No roll over and fetch us a paper, Rover."

So then why were liberals saying Bush was wrong to push for democracy in the Middle east if it gave us Hamas when the Palestinians voted not for democracy or humanism, but a state run by terrorists?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Authoritarianism Abroad. How America Made the World Do Everything It Wanted.

Published by: The Althouse Commentariat.

Edited by: Niall Ferguson.

dont tread 2012 said...

@C4BH

Put the bottle down, turn off your computer, go back to playing Call of Duty.

Nobody cares about your pointless snark.

You're just cluttering up the Althouse.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I dunno jr. Inconsistency and an inability to box everyone into partisan categories sure does ruin the script for you, don't it?

Let the Arabs live with the results of their own decisions, good or bad, rather than blame us for what we think we can try to force on them. It's a better policy.

Big Mike said...

I was much impressed with Niall Ferguson's book The Ascent of Money, and now this clip from MSNBC has absolutely reinforced my positive impression. How did a guy who looks at the world in such an unvarnished fashion wind up at a left wing lunatic institution such as Haaah-vaaaad?

What I was not at all impressed with was Zbigniew Brzezinski's lame effort to assert that, no, Obama did not blow it. Brzezinski's point is that the revolution was not started by us and cannot be controlled by us. And Ferguson says much the same thing, except he asserts -- and only the most rabid Obamabot would disagree -- that the way to have influence was to (1) understand that something like this could happen, and (2) identify and encourage pro-democracy groups beforehand. And Bush did it, and Obama defunded the effort.

So now we know why the Shah of Iran got replaced by a rabid theocracy back when Brzezinski was head of the National Security Council. Under Obama the US is marching down the same path that Carter and Brzezinski took us back in the 1970's, and if there is a different outcome, it will be purely luck.

Plus I just love Ferguson's take on Obama's foreign policy: "I'm not Bush, love me."

Priceless.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Nothing better than a fact-free and idea-free comments section to provide "Don't Tread" that fresh and clean feeling!

You're not supposed to use the douche on your brain, you know? It's meant to flush out other things.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Plus I just love Ferguson's take on Obama's foreign policy: "I'm not Bush, love me."

Seems to be working. And that rankles the non-mindblind to no end.

dont tread 2012 said...

@C4BH

Bite me.

Synova said...

"Guys, if we don't tell Egypt what to do,.."

I'm still waiting for you, or anyone for that matter, to point out where Ferguson said that Obama should have told Egypt what to do.

I realize that creating a strawman is a compulsion. But having your own conversation with yourself and your strawman in a corner is mostly only entertaining to yourself.

Obama didn't have a "hands-off" policy, because a "hands-off" policy would have been an unambiguous, coherent, policy. Expecting the president of the United States to have a clue or be slightly ahead of the curve of what might happen given the situation in the world, is not synonymous with expecting the president of the United States to dictate events in another country.

But then again. Perhaps we should be thankful for his incoherence. It certainly kept him from doing something stupid.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ooooh! The little pussy cat talks dirty - like a tiger!

Roar!

chickelit said...

@C4-BDH:

Speaking of hippies like Lennon and conservative Brits with opinions on the Middle East, what do you think of Arnold Toynbee?

jr565 said...

C4BDH wrote:
By abstaining from dictating the decisions other nations and their people will make?

Except did Obama really abstain from dictating decisions for Egypt?
Obama laid down five conditions for Mubarak to stay on as president with US support:

1. Egyptian military and security forces MUST be restrained from violence against civilians. The US would defend the rights to freedom of assembly and speech everywhere.
2. Mubarak MUST deliver on his pledges of reforms for a better democracy and greater economic opportunities;
3. He MUST hold a dialogue with the opponents of his regime and abandon the use of force;
4. The shutdown of Internet and other services MUST be reversed.
Sounds like an awful lot dictating and ultimating, especially considering Obama flip flopped at least four times saying Mubarek must go immediately or that there needs to be a gradual transition to democracy.
You'll note that despite the fact that these are the things that Mubarek must do to maintain US support, Obama still threw him under the bus despite Mubarek tryin to accomodate those things.
How again was Obama not dictating to Mubarek?

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

Just wanted to try my hand at some snark fit for a liberal.

How do you like me now?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I'm still waiting for you, or anyone for that matter, to point out where Ferguson said that Obama should have told Egypt what to do.

It doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure he openly and ardently supported McCain. He's an interesting historian who can write a good piece or two, probably moreso on financial history as Mikey knows. But when it comes to anything else, he's too vague, pro-empire and Cassandra-esque to conclude that his hopelessly partisan mind can be kept from infecting his understanding of current events.

Other historians are also biased. Most of them do a much better job of recognizing the biases, though, opening them up for criticism, and/or offering the critical arguments against them themselves. And attending to them in more subtle ways.

Ferguson does not.

Again, I suppose that is why you will love him. Clarity is never more important than when it provides the illusion of its own antidote against falsity.

Hagar said...

And why has not CBS and Katie Couric reported on Katie's own experience?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Love the Helen Thomas avatar!

Matt said...

Big Mike
Bush did it, and Obama defunded the effort

Yeah, but isn't it interesting that all this funding from Bush simply yielded more of the same? While Obama defunding non-military programs happens and there is a revolution which overthrows Mubarak.

Say what you want about being prepared or not being prepared but you have to say that Mubarak being out is a pretty good thing.

And it is not like Bush laid down any plans either. Funding a country does not mean there is a replacement in the wings. Because clearly there was no one. I think if this had happened when Bush was in the White House it would have turned out just about the same.

We can't micromanage the world. But sure it would have been good to have someone waiting in the wings.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

How do you like me now?

Zebra can't change its stripes.

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

Its too bad you use a conservative icon in effigy as you do.

Hard to take you seriously!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Chickie:

I'm familiar enough with Toynbee to recognize his influence, but not much beyond that.

Revenant said...

If you call what Pinochet did to Allende - and to a good number of people in Chile - 'justice' then I don't see why you would be opposed to Castro or Mubarik or any of the dictators in the middle east or around the world.

If we were having this conversation in, say, 1983, one could present a weak but not inherently ridiculous argument that Castro, Mubarak, and Pinochet were equivalent to one another. Arguing that way today, over a decade after Pinochet was defeated at the ballot box and stepped down, is obviously a little silly.

jr565 said...

C4BDH,
Again, where are you getting the notion that Obama wasn't dictating to Egypt how they must behave. Everything on that list is a dication to israel that they must do a certain thing or else. If Obama were truly hands off he wouldn't have in fact made a single ulimatum. Yet he made multiple. And many in fact contradicted the previous one. How can you call a policy where you change your police 4 times in a week to be a good one, especialy considering they were caught completely off guard by the events in the first place.

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@DBQ

You mean kitty/stripes ;)

Just havin' some fun with C4BDH

Don't feel like flame throwing tonite.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Helen the Engineer:

If you're going to make a satirical statement by appropriating the other side's icon, it's best to do it either subtly or with some wit.

For instance, what's wrong with better hygiene? Is it something that conservatives should oppose?

I daresay the profession of dentistry isn't in the midst of as much upheaval and re-invention as is journalism. That makes it easier to define good dental hygiene. Avoiding dark yellow teeth and the attendant emphysema makes for a clear sign, in that regard.

You guys do like clarity, right?

jr565 said...

Matt wrote:
Say what you want about being prepared or not being prepared but you have to say that Mubarak being out is a pretty good thing.

Say what you want about being prepared or not being prepared but you have to say that Sadaam Hussein being out is a pretty good thing. Strangely I heard very few liberals actually say that. And considering the military now controls the entire country and there is nothing on the table that would set up an orderly transition to democracy (which at least Iraq had in place) its too soon to tell whether in fact it is a good thing that Mubarek is gone. If next week the muslim brotherhood is charge and the camp david accords go bye bye and Egypt is now closer to a theocracy than a democracy and closer to a theocracy then under Mubarek, maybe it's not a good thing.

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

Of course, you are always right...Left, I mean.

Wit is nothing you have cornered the market on! To speak with authority on this would be a reach.

"If you're going to make a satirical statement by appropriating the other side's icon, it's best to do it either subtly or with some wit. "

You've done neither, sir.

"I daresay the profession of dentistry isn't in the midst of as much upheaval and re-invention as is journalism."

Agreed.

"You guys do like clarity, right?"

Right.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Am I really supposed to have a discussion with an engineer about why making fun of Buckley's dark yellow teeth is more subtle than making fun of Helen Thomas' supposedly poor reporting skills?

He does do a good job of believing that opinions are universal and tantamount to facts, though. So we can see that typically conservative handicap is working against him.

However, I should applaud his effort. At this point, he might actually understand how to engage a more broadly appealing sense of irony in, I dunno, a few hundred years.

former law student said...

Barack Obama supported Hosni Mubarak with $2 billion a year

Damn that Obama, copying what Reagan and both Bushes did!

kent said...

When people on comment boards start asking for citations for things that are easy to verify I know I have begin to win the argument.

"Asking me to back up any damnfool assertion I happen to tug free from the innermost reaches of my ass = I WIN!!11!!!!"

ROTFLMAO!!!

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

You say 'engineer' like its a bad thing...was there spittle on your lips after uttering???

Opinions, facts, whose counting! You're a liberal, facts don't matter, its intentions! And, how you feel...not how you look.

So, yes, I do find irony in you making fun of a conservative icon's imperfect teeth...why waste time on that?

I suppose you'll tell me how much better looking liberal women are.

Paco Wové said...

Man, Obama fans act just like Justin Bieber fans. Soon they'll be defacing Ferguson's Wikipedia entry.

former law student said...

How did a guy who looks at the world in such an unvarnished fashion wind up at a left wing lunatic institution such as Haaah-vaaaad?

The waiting list to teach at Hillsdale stretches out for decades.

the way to have influence was to (1) understand that something like this could happen,

Well, duh.

and (2) identify and encourage pro-democracy groups beforehand.

You mean, like winning their hearts and minds? Because the US is just so popular in the Middle East? And because we can both support Mubarak and the forces working to overthrow him?

God that Ferguson just seems smarter and smarter.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

There's nothing inherently wrong with being an engineer, as long as the training was supplemented by experiences that give you a good understanding for how human beings actually think and behave. They tend to operate a lot differently from manipulated and rigidly designed "systems".

Other than that, facts are very important to anyone engaging reason, which is how the ideas of Locke came to define political liberalism. If you're not being sarcastic, try that as your starting point.

Synova said...

"It doesn't matter."

Clearly.

Must be why some people dislike clarity and love ambiguity so much. They can make any assertions they like about anyone they like and "It doesn't matter."

Bravo!

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

"They tend to operate a lot differently from manipulated and rigidly designed "systems".

Wow, who knew???

"If you're not being sarcastic, try that as your starting point."

You first.

What is your discipline, C4, other than bomb throwing?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I gave you serious answers, Buffalo. If you don't understand their meaning, then bust out of that loop and remind yourself of why it's important to avoid equating human thought and ideologies to anything having to do with an artificially engineered system.

Big Mike said...

@FLS, you wrote "well, duh" but you do understand that Obama's NSC and State Department were caught flat-footed, yes?

Maguro said...

You mean, like winning their hearts and minds?

No, not like winning their hearts and minds. More like building mutual understanding and trust with potential opposiion leaders. So that we'll be better positioned to deal with them productively should they come to power.

Because the US is just so popular in the Middle East?

Non-sequitor. Building relationships with potential opposition leaders is all the more important when we're not particularly popular.

And because we can both support Mubarak and the forces working to overthrow him?

In a place like Egypt, hedging your bets isn't a bad idea. You just need to be discreet about it.

Michael said...

I would expect that a good many of the Egyptians who are "thrilled" by the overthrow are similar to the woman who thought that Obama's election meant the end of having to pay her mortgage and power bills. Very shortly the euphoria of the last weeks will collide with the daily grind and bitterness, bewilderment or anger will follow.

Ferguson's position may be overstated but directionally correct. Clearly the Obama administration wavered and was uncertain of what to do. Clearly the administration is reacting while guessing as opposed to reacting to a scenario that has been anticipated. You do not have to be an historian or a news commentator to know that.

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

Serious answers? No need to try and denigrate. Seems you didn't answer my question, now, did you?

Its obvious to the rest of us who takes themselves seriously. Clearly, you are a very serious person.

When you can't see beyond your own nose, its hard to know what someone else is saying.

Shanna said...

I was much impressed with Niall Ferguson's book The Ascent of Money

I was just eyeing that on amazon...so it is worth a read?

I'm still waiting for you, or anyone for that matter, to point out where Ferguson said that Obama should have told Egypt what to do.

Indeed Synova. He basically said Obama should have been prepared, and that the adminstration should have had a clear policy towards the situation, rather than the 4 or 5 policies he seemed to have. He also said that we're a long way from being able to check this revolution off in the win column. We shall see.

How funny that people who had a fit over Mission Accomplished are having a very Mission Accomplished reaction to something that is very, very far from over.

kent said...

Nir Rosen, a Fellow at the NYU Cente for Law and Security, brushes aside sexual assault of CBS correspondent Lara Logan by Egyptian protesters, stating that "she's a major war monger."

Strictly speaking, utter human soullessness isn't an absolute prerequisite for membership in today's political left... but, plainly: it isn't anything like a drawback, either.

Shanna said...

Nir Rosen, a Fellow at the NYU Cente for Law and Security, brushes aside sexual assault of CBS correspondent Lara Logan by Egyptian protesters, stating that "she's a major war monger."

Good God! There are some truly awful people out there.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

People who make an attempt to understand human behavior understand the concept of "sincerity", and the role that being serious plays in it.

Here is a field guide on the concept for novices.

So sorry to let that little lesson and the lessons preceding it get in the way of your game. If you want to feel that you have won your masturbatory feat, I concede. You have masturbated your way very cleverly through your one-sided conversation. It was almost spectacular -- well, at least it was a spectacle.

(That last part was humorous and at your expense as it is clear that you don't have respect for when someone makes a serious effort to explain something to you.)

D. B. Light said...

What interested me is when they brought Mika's dad on this morning to counter Prof. Ferguson, he did not. He said that it was too soon to declare Cairo to be a disaster, which parallels Ferguson's statement to the effect that it is too early to declare it a triumph. The two savants agreed that we have to wait and see. Zbig also said that Obama was basically irrelevant to what went on in Cairo, which in no way contradicts Ferguson's main point regarding the administration's haplessness.

PSGInfinity said...

Nice try, Matt.

After Pinochet got done dealing justice to Allende, and instituting economic reforms that put Chile on the path to being a First World nation, he peacefully yielded power.

Sensibly, he didn't let bratty Leftists, such as yourself, put him in the dock for doing what he had to do to save Chile from Zimbabwe's fate. And Cuba's. And Venezuala's (in progress - you must be so proud). Matt: you, and your fellow travelers, are not morally competent to judge him.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Zbig also said that Obama was basically irrelevant to what went on in Cairo, which in no way contradicts Ferguson's main point regarding the administration's haplessness.

And this is precisely the point that no one here gets - let alone the fact that it's false and inherently self-contradictory.

Haplessness is not what you accuse someone of for conceding that events are best left in the hands of those who have a better reason for controlling those events.

If a meteor hit Egypt tomorrow the cons will accuse Obama of being to blame, at this rate.

Liberals for Non-Racist Reportage said...

@C4

Okay, Uncle!

Its obvious you are a master of self-fellatio...kudos.

I don't think you would know sincerity until it hit you in the face. Then, too late.

Your obvious attempt to embarrass is not lost...congratulations!

There is no hope for you...you are a complete asshole!

Thanks for playing, C4, the gloves, for you at least, have been shelved.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, at least you chose the avatar of someone who looks troll-like!

Well done.

Matt said...

jr565

The difference is that we invaded Iraq and forced a 'revolution' while in Egypt the people rose up and forced the 'revolution'.

Big difference.

In one we were attempting to control everything while in the other we don't really have much of a say. That is sometimes the difference between a military action versus letting things take their course. I sort of like the latter but it doesn't always workout.

Having the Egyptian military in charge is the best scenario right now. They are the ones who can attempt to set up fair elections. Without them there would be chaos and an open door for the Muslim brotherhood.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@C4

As Scott M would offer...WEAK SAUCE.

Maguro said...

The difference is that we invaded Iraq and forced a 'revolution' while in Egypt the people rose up and forced the 'revolution'.

The other difference is that Saddam was a lot worse than Mubarak and would have ordered his tanks to fire on the demonstrators in a heartbeat. And the Iraqi Army would have done it, too.

PSGInfinity said...

Ritmo (aka C4BDH)

And your avatar represents a man who trolled an entire worldview. Pity you're not 1/1000th the troll, or the man that Buckley was.

D. B. Light said...

A little background on Ferguson. He argues that the British empire was a very good thing, all considered, that was destroyed by participation in the disastrous wars of the Twentieth Century. He has consistently argued that the US should step into the breach and assume the role of imperial governance practiced by Britain prior to the World Wars. He is in no way a NeoCon, nor is he a "Realist". His position on Cairo is consistent with his long-held advocacy for an activist American global imperial presence.

Oh, yeah. He also sleeps with the most beautiful woman in the world.

Henry said...

It's kind of weird to read the comments and realize how many people don't know who Niall Ferguson is. Stop watching television and go read some books.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

So, our foreign policy should be decided by someone who is identified here as a troll?

I doubt Buckley would be defending your imperial ambitions.

Henry said...

@D.B. Light. It is kind of ironic I posted my annoyance right after your character sketch. Carry on.

Ironclad said...

How can ANYONE be surprised that women journalists were not raped in Cairo? The issue of men harassing any women (mainly Egyptians) has been manifest in Cairo and the rest of the country for years and has been the subject of many articles. Add to that issue that most Egyptian men seem to think that Western women are equivalent to whores.

With the crowds that gathered in Tahir square and around the city, you would expect some "gang" behavior to emerge - especially after the "triumph" of Mubarak leaving made the crowd celebrate. It terrible it happened - but it WAS the culture there.

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