February 21, 2011

At the Wisconsin Teahouse...

P1060926

... go ahead — try to talk about whatever you want.

275 comments:

1 – 200 of 275   Newer›   Newest»
Palladian said...

"We don't drink tea in Wisconsin"

No, you're too busy drinking Kool-Aid.

garage mahal said...

Don't drink it. It's bad for you. And everyone else.

TMink said...

Does he have the rest of the state in his pocket or is he overstating his position?

Trey

Triangle Man said...

I hereby invite my fellow Wisconsonites (both species: taxpayer and public employee) to join the Keg Party.

Jay said...

"We don't drink tea in Wisconsin"

I guess this is what you say when a tea party backed gubernatorial candidate wins with 52% of the vote.

Andrew said...

Link.

The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS. How are we supposed to trust the state will get a fair price for the plants?

I guess state handouts are okay when they go to businesses?

aronamos said...

I "like" the "quotation marks" around "tea." "Very" effective.

Rich B said...

If the teachers were smart, they would realize this is making them look bad. I don't think they can help themselves, so we might as well enjoy the spectacle. Leftists gone wild!

chickelit said...

Are Wisconsinites still the biggest per capita brandy drinkers?

garage mahal said...

The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS. How are we supposed to trust the state will get a fair price for the plants?

Wondering how the Koch suckers will defend this one. Talking points must not be out yet.

JAL said...

Of course not!

They drink kool-aid.

Ooops, Palladian beat me to it.

;-)

MikeR said...

Ann, I've seen the question raised on other blogs: To what extent did Wisconsin voters understand that this would happen if they voted for Walker?

E.M. Davis said...

Don't drink it. It's bad for you. And everyone else.

Sure thing, Garage. How do you fix the fiscal problems facing this country, then. Or have they already been fixed?

Sloanasaurus said...

When all this is settled.... whose fault will it all be.

Two years ago, in March 2009, people were talking about the end of Capitalism and the rise of Obama. Democrats had total power with their 60 votes in the Senate. Now, two years later, its all about how much to cut and states are passing right-to-work laws after the biggest landslide election in the states since the 1920s. In addition, conservatives can bring out 15,000 grass-roots activists in one day to protest. This ability did not exist two years ago - Conservatives never had any such organization before the Tea Party.

Who is responsible for this change. I say there are two major things:

1) The deep recession exposed the failure of the liberal welfare state.

2) Obama's reaction to the recession created a conservative grass roots movement - the Tea Party.

deborah said...

Good one, Palladian.

My tea of choice is green decaf. I also like apricot-flavored tea, sometimes.

Fen said...

The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS. How are we supposed to trust the state will get a fair price for the plants?

Federal and State govs do this everyday. Its called sole-source contract. There can be many reasons why. Here are a few examples:

1) only one responsible source that can service the requirements of the contract

2) there's urgent and compelling need to have contract awarded asap

I'm not saying these are the Wisconsin states reasons, I'm just saying its not the nefarious thing you make it out to be.

Do some more research and find out what there reasons are for sole-sourcing.

LakeLevel said...

They look like they could use a nice calming herbal tea. To mikeR who said:
To what extent did Wisconsin voters understand that this would happen if they voted for Walker?


They understood more than Obama voters knew they would get 1.5 trillion dollar deficits, the destruction of our health care system and the O's nasty divisive politics.

AJ Lynch said...

Andrew:

I agree with you. The solution is that the govt agency should hire some QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS [i.e non-govt employees] to handle and evaluate and negotiate the sale of govt assets. I doubt that you would agree with my solution.

Fen said...

Oh, I left a spelling error in for Bob to flame. Just so he can contribute *something* intelligent to the discussion.

garage mahal said...

Sure thing, Garage. How do you fix the fiscal problems facing this country, then

Don't be fooled into thinking that ending bargaining rights helps solve budgets.

Rich B said...

Are these the same state-owned power plants that were being investigated by the EPA? So the governor wants to onload these turkeys and the leftists have their panties in a knot?

Fen said...

Mike: Ann, I've seen the question raised on other blogs: To what extent did Wisconsin voters understand that this would happen if they voted for Walker?

Everyone Should Have Seen This Coming

"but to people who have watched the governor’s political rise through the years, the events of the week feel like a Scott Walker rerun, though on a much larger screen and with a much bigger audience."

More detail with examples at the link.

Fen said...

Garage: Don't be fooled into thinking that ending bargaining rights helps solve budgets.

"...80 percent of a school's budget, 75 percent of a county's budget in Wisconsin is made up of salaries and benefits."

As a county executive, how do you solve a budget crisis when you can't touch 75% of it?

Chase said...

I have sympathy for both sides in this issue, but how can anyone use the Walker / Hitler equivalence and sleep at night?

I blame the public school system for the painfully obvious low IQ's of the protesters.

Seriously - how stupid do you have to be to think the protests represent democracy when the vast majority of the protesters didn't bother to participate in democracy by voting during the last election?

THAT was my favorite sign - some union guy at the protest with a sign at the bottom that says "and I vote".

Obviously not. You lost.

Jay said...

The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS.

I see since trying to defend the indefensible (teachers having to contribute zero to their own retirement) has run its course, you are now trying to change the topic.

Sofa King said...

Don't be fooled into thinking that ending bargaining rights helps solve budgets.

Nonsense. Even the modest cuts they say they now agree too were off the table before this bill was about to pass. A budget solution that only lasts as long as someone is dangling a sword over them is no solution at all.

Jay said...

Don't be fooled into thinking that ending bargaining rights helps solve budgets.

Actually, it would.

But you can't understand that because you are not that bright.

And again, the legislation in question does not end collective bargaining rights.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I guess state handouts are okay when they go to businesses?

To truly be a state handout Walker would have to sell it for $0.

garage mahal said...

State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Sure thing, Garage. How do you fix the fiscal problems facing this country, then.

Easy. Just press a button and voila. Money just appears. That's why we can't go bankrupt or need to borrow money from China. He educated me on monetary policy awhile ago.

edutcher said...

Actually, tea is one of the best things one can drink. It's what the Lefties have been smoking for 50 years that has them so screwed up.

Chase said...

I have sympathy for both sides in this issue, but how can anyone use the Walker / Hitler equivalence and sleep at night?

It's been the Lefties' go-to response for 40 years. The fact that Godwin's Law applies away from the Internet eludes them.

And they sleep at night because Uncle Saul told them the end always justifies the means.

Chip Ahoy said...

The other side of the sign says

WE DON'T WATCH FOX "NEWS"
IN WISCONSIN

Joe said...

The Crypto Jew)





Have I missed an ironic reference to “Muskogee” in this thread, I think it cries out for one.

Jason said...

Jeff Fitzgerald said on the radio today that the mass layoffs will begin as early as next week if budget bill isn't passed.

Walker called your "compromise" bluff, Dems. I suggest getting back to work.

Chip Ahoy said...

His other sign says:

SARAH PALIN IS STUPID

Fen said...

Garage: State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee.

Ha. Okay, go with that. "The enemy is in full retreat"...

Chip Ahoy said...

The back of his other sign says:

BUSH IS A WAR CRIMINAL

Chip Ahoy said...

The sign he left at home says

IRAQ IS JUST LIKE VIETNAM

Chip Ahoy said...

The back of the sign he left at home says

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

Pogo said...

Is that a male or female holding the sign?

vw: fulshe
Blogger has spoken.

garage mahal said...

Ha. Okay, go with that. "The enemy is in full retreat"...

Unsurprisingly you don't understand. Repubs could ram it through without Dems by attaching it to non budgetary bill. But they aren't going to. Does this suggest they have the upper hand here? Or, there are one or two Repubs that aren't signing onto this sociopath's agenda.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Palladian won the thread with the first response.

And then, Garbage Pail and all his inanities.

Fail, Garbage, fail.

wv - ditis

52% of Wisconsinites currently suffer from ditis.

Joe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Julius said...

I wonder if the conservatives here would be pleased if Scott Walker ordered his State Troopers to go into the Capitol and start shooting the protesters.

The troopers union has said that it'll do whatever is ordered, so it ain't that far fetched.

Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?

Fen said...

I see Julius is projecting again.

What a lame troll.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Julius

"I wonder if the conservatives here would be pleased if Scott Walker ordered his State Troopers to go into the Capitol and start shooting the protesters."

Umm, Julius, at this point changing the haughty Caesar avatar to Bozo the clown may be your only hope.

Please, step away from the keyboard.

Sheesh.

rdkraus said...

Julius = troll.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)


Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?


*WOW* Just *WOW*…because yes Scott Walker is EXACTLY like Mubarak, this is the extent of Progressive Thought/Discourse…Limbaugh is right, the Left has stories it tells itself to make itself feel brave and important…it’s not what HAPPENED but what the Left Imagines/Hopes happened…”They turn on us with guns and fire hoses and tear-gas”…sure it never happened but it’s a nice little narrative to buck yourselves up, with…”we’re so brave…the opponent is so evil.”

Mostly you’re being idiotic….and I don’t like insults, but that is one of the most foolish things someone has written hereabouts. Yes, I’m sure Walker has called up the WING and the M-1’s are rolling…just getting ready to pull a Tiananmen Square on you Progressives, that’s EXACTLY what the WI GOP is planning…bllod in the streets, they’ll grease their tracks with your intestines…yes yes it’s true

Julius you should be off the streets by 9.02 PM (Central Time)…Just a Hint *wink*wink*

Triangle Man said...

I see since trying to defend the indefensible (teachers having to contribute zero to their own retirement) has run its course, you are now trying to change the topic.

@Jay

Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole, or would you just prefer that teachers receive a greater percentage of their total compensation as salary? It is simple accounting. Either the contributions come from the employer and are included in fringe benefits or they come from the employee out of salary.

Furthermore, no one is contesting the permanent cuts to compensation via mandatory retirement contributions and increased contributions to health insurance premiums. Not Althouse, not Madison Man, not the teachers, not anyone who is affected by the cuts. That is why the subject may be fading from the discussion.

Phil 3:14 said...

Wondering how the Koch suckers will defend this one.

Gosh, the civility just never stops.

Sofa King said...

I wonder if Julius likes to fuck little boys in the asshole.

He's got an avatar of an ancient Roman, so it ain't that far-fetched.

Jason said...

Not true, garage. Any bill that spends money, no matter the form, must have Senate quorum to be brought up for a vote.

Do you honestly think Walker wouldn't have pushed this through already if he had the means? Of course he would. Its the key piece of his entire budget proposal. Collective bargaining is the way Walker can meet his budget goals the way he wants.

Fen said...

I wouldn't waste your time and energy on him. Like Ritmo, his only goal is to spike the thread.

Sloanasaurus said...

Repubs could ram it through without Dems by attaching it to non budgetary bill. But they aren't going to.

I disagree. If the Republicans were smart they would give some more time for the Democratic Senators to return home. The longer they are away, the worst they look.

I would give them until Friday. If they are not back by Friday, then you have to force their hand.

Henry said...

Did irony abandon the state at the same time as the Democrat legislators?

I'm talking about the half-hidden sign "Stop the attack on Wisconsin families."

Uh-huh. When the people who teach children walk off the job for a week, they might want to avoid the next few parent-teacher conferences.

Chip Ahoy said...

These signs and the uninteresting shoes of the people that hold them are beginning to cause me to lose interest in their protest. Wake me up please when the Madison capitol is teargassed.

Until then, how about a piping hot plate of sweet potato fries?

Not having deep-fried? How about a huge pot of pork and green chile?

Too much of a good thing? Okay then, here's a plate of scrambled eggs that makes good use of that green chile.

Not down with the green chile? Here's some plain pork cubes with mixed vegetables with miso instead.

Fen said...

Also, there are recall efforts now in play against some of the 14. They can get the sigs alot faster than one would think. So letting the 14 languish in Chicago lends the recall effort energy, time and space.

The end game is massive cuts in entitlement spending. If the Dem's are whittled down to 13, it will be much easier.

Alex said...

Gotta love the new civility.

Alex said...

Don't drink it. It's bad for you. And everyone else.

Tea has useful anti-oxidants. But go ahead, drink your vodka. Drink 2 bottles a day.

Revenant said...

Repubs could ram it through without Dems by attaching it to non budgetary bill. But they aren't going to.

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

- Napoleon Bonaparte

Alex said...

Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?

cite?

Marshal said...

"The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS."

Garage's new complaint: I wonder why he opposes a competitive process for teacher hiring, while supporting one whenever the private sector is involved? Since I haven't seen the Democratic talking points he probably hasn't realized it's a contradiction. But no matter, Democratic activists will be along soon to tell garage what he thinks.

Revenant said...

American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?

We DO support the overthrow of entrenched opponents of democracy in Wisconsin. :)

Bob From Ohio said...

Garage: "State Repubs say they won't ram an alternate bill through on Tuesday ending collective bargaining, and will wait for Dems. Which means they know they are getting KILLED in the state on this issue. More than that, the apparatchiks don't want Walker killing their chances around the country. Hee."

Perhaps. But have you considered an alternative theory?

Perhaps the teachers not teaching and legislators not legislating is a powerful image, one the GOP does not want to get rid of.

garage mahal said...

Not true, garage. Any bill that spends money, no matter the form, must have Senate quorum to be brought up for a vote.

Stripping collective bargaining rights costs nothing, and saves nothing. And yes Walker would if he could.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole,

Well I think when taken into account the total amount of days worked, then yes. I think getting $30K-47K annually with summers off, toss in spring break and Christmas break is a helluva deal.

Jay said...

Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya

Something you could not possibly prove.

Jay said...

Stripping collective bargaining rights costs nothing, and saves nothing

No "rights" are being "stripped"

Why are you such a liar?

Chris Mac said...

When I look at these signs, I remember the outcome of a public union "slowdown" by sanitation workers in New York this Christmas. At least two infants dead because ambulances couldn't get through streets not plowed. And I think: Yeah, it's time to do something about these unions.

Jay said...

@Jay

Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole,


Yes.

or would you just prefer that teachers receive a greater percentage of their total compensation as salary?

No.

Teachers should receive zero from the state for their "pension" (an antiquated concept) and contribute 45% of their health insurance costs at a minimum.

EDH said...

Walker proposes selling state-owned power plants

A similar proposal was inserted into the 2005-'07 budget by Republican Rep. Scott Jensen. The plan, vetoed by then-Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, would have led to the outsourcing of 271 state government jobs.

Several state power plants are under scrutiny because of their air pollution, raising a question about how marketable they may be.

Last year, the Environmental Protection Agency began an investigation to determine whether plants at UW campuses and prisons were in violation of the Clean Air Act. In addition, air pollution standards being implemented by the EPA are expected to result in older coal-fired power plants' needing to add pollution controls or switch to cleaner-burning natural gas.

"The state knows darn well that it has got compliance issues with these aging coal plants, and so the violations are going to have to be corrected," said Jennifer Feyerherm of the Sierra Club in Madison. "How the governor thinks he can put lipstick on that pig and sell huge financial and environmental liabilities to someone else, good luck. Bottom line, those plants need to be cleaned up."

The Doyle administration was moving to replace coal as a fuel source at several sites, including the Charter St. heating plant that serves UW-Madison. That plant would have burned natural gas and biomass instead, but the Walker administration last month pulled the plug on the biomass portion of the project.

Maguro said...

Stripping collective bargaining rights costs nothing, and saves nothing.

If that's the case, it follows that collective bargaining gains the workers nothing.

In which case it's no big deal if it goes away. The union members get to keep their dues and get the same pay and benefits as they did before.

Right?

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

Bob_From_Ohio: Perhaps the teachers not teaching and legislators not legislating is a powerful image, one the GOP does not want to get rid of.

Be gentle. Garage is focused on winning the battle, not the war.

Go get em Garage! They are in full retreat!

Pogo said...

"Stripping collective bargaining rights costs nothing, and saves nothing."

Walker is proposing they keep the right to collectively bargain for wages.

Gone would be the collective bargaining over non-wage issues. Those would revert to the county level.

So "stripping"in garage-speak means "not stripping".

That may explain why your pole dancer business flopped. =P

Jay said...

Furthermore, no one is contesting the permanent cuts to compensation via mandatory retirement contributions and increased contributions to health insurance premiums.

These "cuts" are not "permanent" by any measure. And this is easily seen by the current situation.

Further, the "cuts" are laughable in the sense that they are in no way comparable to the private sector.

I would love for you to name the private sector occupation where employers make a 92% contribution to your health insurance premium.

Revenant said...

The Wisconsin budget bill would allow for the privatization of power plants--WITHOUT A BIDDING PROCESS. How are we supposed to trust the state will get a fair price for the plants?

The above is additional evidence that the Left knows it is losing in Wisconsin -- they're desperately searching the budget for something that might actually get the public on their side. :)

Jay said...

Stripping collective bargaining rights costs nothing, and saves nothing

Collective bargaining rights enable no benefits since changing them doesn't affect costs.

Right?

AllenS said...

garage mahal said...
Unsurprisingly you don't understand. Repubs could ram it through without Dems by attaching it to non budgetary bill.

and then

And yes Walker would if he could.

Make up your fucking mind. Can he or can't he do it.

John said...

Don't forget that most of these teachers protesting are likely to be graduates of (non)schools of (non)education.

It is not really their fault that they seem dumb as rocks about the optics of all this. They just don't know any better. It would have been nice if they had known that going to a school of education would not give them anything more than a credential for a teaching license. One problem is that they mostly went to public schools and had no way to know any better.

The thing to do would be to fire them all and replace them with folks who actually have educations. Or, give them 3-4 years to get a degree, from a real school, in the subject they teach.

Here's an idea:

Science teachers who actually studied and know some science. Math teachers who actually studied and know some math. History teachers who actually studied and know some history. And so on.

Naahh...

That is just too weird an idea. Besides, they could never get licensed.

The entire system is rotten and needs to be pulled down and remade.

John Henry

garage mahal said...

Make up your fucking mind. Can he or can't he do it.

Yes he can. He says it's the right thing to do. So why not do it?

Fen said...

Hey Garage, you should volunteer to advise the State Dem leadership on this issues. You've got some leet skills.

Marshal said...

"Do you think that teachers are over compensated on the whole, or would you just prefer that teachers receive a greater percentage of their total compensation as salary?"

I think all compensation both public and private should be current cash, with all retirement defined contribution and immediately employee owned. The ability to defer some payments until later creates misaligned incentives which regularly lead to catastrophic failure. This problem is worse in the public arena because the ability to buy votes leads to greater abuse. But even blue chip companies fail with the government assuming their pension liabilities to prove the problem exists in the private world as well.

And yes, they are over-compensated as well. They are paid a premium because Democratic politicians effectively get a kickback in the form of union contributions and political support. Wisconsin Unions are protesting because they fear losing this premium, without which the union serves no purpose.

madawaskan said...

Well there's a $200 million short fall in the state patient fund but -

screw them.

The President of the WEAC needs her $400,000 salary.

And that's what they are preserving-their jobs the union hierarchy and their access to the union dues/future Democrat donations.

If the teachers at the bottom have to give up salary who cares-what matters is the hierarchy -The Council.

Freeman Hunt said...

I love how being forced to join a union and pay union dues is characterized as a "collective bargaining right."

Guy tapping a baseball bat into his palm says, "Yeah, it's your right to join up with us, see? I'm just here to make sure you exercise your rights!"

Fen said...

The above is additional evidence that the Left knows it is losing in Wisconsin -- they're desperately searching the budget for something that might actually get the public on their side. :)

Yup. They're going full Alinksy now, even threatening his kids.

I have some Liberal friends who do Opposition Research. They're being flooded with calls.

So I'm now skeptical of anything now on Walker that reads like it was produced by Mary Mapes.

Anyone have eyes on the new incarnation of JournoList?

Roger J. said...

Garage--as I understand from the threads the gov needs the dems to show up to constitute a quorum--he clearly can once they make an appearance--now you have opined often about the dems not wanting to take it in the ass--and if that is a real concern I will be more than happy to send you case of KY Jelly to make it a bit more comfortable to those scum scuking assholes--and you know I deliver on my promises.

Maguro said...

Collective bargaining sure is some magical stuff.

It costs the employer nothing, yet confers incredible benefits upon the employees.

Where do all these amazing union-negotiated state employee benefits come from if not the state?

roesch-voltaire said...

The state news papers are reporting that smaller protests are spreading across the state. I guess Rep Paul Ryan was right when he said "Cairo has come to Madison."

madawaskan said...

Someone needs to drive a wedge between The Council and the due payers.

Fen said...

I think what Garage is getting at is that the GOP could strip out the non-financial part of the bill and pass it with a lesser quorum.

I forget atm, but for Wisconsin, I think its 3/4ths for finanacial and 2/3rds for non-financial.

Regardless, if you have followed Garage on this blog, you know he's not someone who's tactical sense is sound.

garage mahal said...

It costs the employer nothing, yet confers incredible benefits upon the employees.

I said it wouldn't cost anything to attach that into a non budget bill.

The Crack Emcee said...

Jesus,

According to the NYT, Qaddafi's using warplanes and helicopters on the people, and Libya's diplomats are now calling him a criminal for it.

It sounds just like what's happening in Wisconsin, don't it?

Oh - and I looove President Bush:

He's done it - he's freed the Middle East!

madawaskan said...

WEA members= Democrat Cash Cow

WEA Council= MIlkers

14 Badger MIA= Useless Tits

Triangle Man said...

@Jay

Althouse is taking home $10,000 less this year than last year. The same will be true every year until she retires unless there is some additional legislation to change the situation. Sounds like a cut to me, and it's not temporary (i.e. going away at the next budget like furloughs). Why don't you try explaining yourself instead of making baseless allegations?

You want to make comparisons with private employers? How many private employers have a mandatory employee retirement plan contribution? State and local government employees typically receive more of their compensation as benefits, including health benefits, than private employees. On average health insurance costs make up 11.6% of the costs of a public employee and 7.5% of a private employee. BLS Report

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
edutcher said...

Julius said...

I wonder if the conservatives here would be pleased if Scott Walker ordered his State Troopers to go into the Capitol and start shooting the protesters.

The troopers union has said that it'll do whatever is ordered, so it ain't that far fetched.

Plus, American conservatives have been generally cheering when that's been done in Egypt and Bahrain and Libya, so why would they not support the same in Wisconsin?


Julie's been hitting the hemlock again.

roesch-voltaire said...

The state news papers are reporting that smaller protests are spreading across the state. I guess Rep Paul Ryan was right when he said "Cairo has come to Madison."

Could also be desperation.

roesch-voltaire said...

I agree that as a public/university employee I should contribute more for health and retirement, but why should we pit middle class against middle class, or lower class, in this debate? As Robert Reich points out: "By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans want Americans to believe that we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation. They hope to deflect attention from the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish."

Jay said...

I love this:

The same will be true every year until she retires unless there is some additional legislation to change the situation. Sounds like a cut to me, and it's not temporary

So it is the "same every year" unless there is "additional legislation to change the situation"

Can you pick a point, please?

madawaskan said...

Triangle Man

Where is the market competition to determine the true value of public sector workers.

They are simply demanding more in a monopoly. They have no competitors to keep them efficient. There is no profit motive.

And just how marketable are they in the real world?

What are their degrees worth outside their protected monopoly?

republicanyankee said...

Does anyone know if Garage has a job? How does he have the time to sit here all day, every day, and comment. And why would he sit here all day, every day and comment. To a lesser extent, the same questions regarding FLS.

Fen said...

I forget atm, but for Wisconsin, I think its 3/4ths for finanacial and 2/3rds for non-financial.

Strike that.

2/3rds quorum for budget votes

1/2+ for non budget.

Jay said...

How many private employers have a mandatory employee retirement plan contribution?

Hysterical.

Um, how many "Private Employers" pay wages from income tax revenue?

State and local government employees typically receive more of their compensation as benefits, including health benefits, than private employees.

I know. And the average teacher in WI makes $48,000 in salary plus benefits while the average worker makes $49,000 and the average state worker makes $51,000.

Seriously, your little "comparison" is an epic failure.

Jay said...

Thanks for the link triangleman, you've completely demonstrated my point:

Health benefit employer costs in September 2010 were $4.65 per hour worked for state and local
government and $2.10 in private industry. Defined benefit retirement plan costs for state and local
government employers were $2.94 per hour worked, significantly higher than 44 cents for private
industry employers
.


Thanks!

Fen said...

I agree that as a public/university employee I should contribute more for health and retirement, but why should we pit middle class against middle class

Thats rich. The party of class warfare wants to frame this as "pitting middle class against middle class".

Next, they'll be lecturing us about the dangers of "violent rhetoric" and the need for civility...

Triangle Man said...

So it is the "same every year" unless there is "additional legislation to change the situation"

I gave a specific counter-example of a temporary cut.

(i.e. going away at the next budget like furloughs)

I can try and come up with another way to explain the difference between temporary and permanent measures, but I beginning to think I am wasting my time.

Jay said...

I can try and come up with another way to explain the difference between temporary and permanent measures,

There is no way to do it, because it is in no way "permanent"

And it is a pretty basic concept that you're struggling with here.

Legislation by it's very nature is not "permanent" and the issues at hand here are governed by legislation.

Get it?

Yet?

madawaskan said...

Which they have no problem.

One away from the damn 2/3 rd.

James said...

I think what Garage is getting at is that the GOP could strip out the non-financial part of the bill and pass it with a lesser quorum.

I forget atm, but for Wisconsin, I think its 3/4ths for finanacial and 2/3rds for non-financial.

Regardless, if you have followed Garage on this blog, you know he's not someone who's tactical sense is sound.


The rules are 3/5 for finance bills and a simple majority for other bills. The Republicans can pass lots of bills now; look for a Voter ID Bill to come up tomorrow.

Triangle Man said...

Teachers should receive zero from the state for their "pension" (an antiquated concept) and contribute 45% of their health insurance costs at a minimum.

@Jay

Now I see. You have no idea how the Wisconsin Retirement System works.

Triangle Man said...

There is no way to do it, because it is in no way "permanent"

You have a very geologic view of the word permanent.

madawaskan said...

As Robert Reich points out:

.....

Class warfare I thought that was the Democratic purview.

Triangle Man said...

@Jay

You bolded a section indicating that public sector employees have more expensive health insurance benefits than private employees. Yes, a greater percentage of public employees' compensation comes from benefits, including health benefits. But I repeat myself.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@Freeman

"I love how being forced to join a union and pay union dues is characterized as a "collective bargaining right."

Guy tapping a baseball bat into his palm says, "Yeah, it's your right to join up with us, see? I'm just here to make sure you exercise your rights!"

Yeah, my wife paid $875 last year in (teacher) union dues (protection money). The school system in which she works is a complete failure structurally. Graduation rates/test scores are sub par, and bad teachers are difficult to move.

Really, the union is a protection scheme. Its existence is a component of the utter failure of modern education.

madawaskan said...

$875 X 160,000 number of WEA members

Big Mike said...

You don't drink tea in Madison? No wonder you're all screwed up.

Try a little chamomile just before bedtime. It'll do wonders for you.

madawaskan said...

A 140 Million?

garage mahal said...

Really, the union is a protection scheme. Its existence is a component of the utter failure of modern education.

You ever how or when your interests and the interests of billionaires aligned so magically? Just wonder how many laughs at the golf course they get from imbeciles like you who will soldier endlessly for their causes. "Can you believe we still have these middle class suckers doing our bidding for us???"

They want to bust unions to pad their bottom line. You want to bust unions...to pad their bottom line. They want control of the states power plants. You want them to have power over ther state's power plants.

They want tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy. You want tax cuts for the fabulously wealthy. It goes and on on. What a bunch of fucking idiots. They will never have your back on anything. Textbook peasant mentality.

Fen said...

/via Insty

"This is a bad unraveling of a political campaign. The showdown in Madison pits pampered public employees against hard-pressed taxpayers. It portrays union workers as an angry mob against those seeking orderly legislative deliberation. It paints Democratic lawmakers as outlaws on the run, undermining the democratic process. It launched a national debate about the generous salaries and benefits for government workers during a time of economic shortages. And it showcased school teachers who abandoned their children in favor of narrow, partisan political gain."

Michael said...

Julius: No, I don't think it would be a good idea to shoot the demonstrators. Although I am sure you would find that more satisfying than the Tucson shooting outcome when your first longings proved incorrect. You lefties have some violent dreams, man, for pacifists.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marshal said...

Our Voltaire Wannabe says:

As Robert Reich points out: "By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans want Americans to believe that we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation. They hope to deflect attention from the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish."

The effect of some people becoming extremely wealthy is a byproduct of an economic system which allows people to prosper to a much greater degree than any other economic system. Democrats focus on this byproduct to deflect attention from their attempts to seize economic assets from the public and hand them over to their voters.

Fen said...

They want to bust unions to pad their bottom line.

Nope. We just don't think its right for workers to be forced into a union and then forced to give money to the campaigns and causes of people that enslave them.

Tell us again how you champion workers rights?

Wisconsin needs to be a right-to-work state. Then we'll see how many truly support their union and how many are being coerced.

Michael said...

Garage: Billionaires could give less of a shit about the schoolteacher's in Wisconsin. If anything they would like to see them keep more of their own money to spend in the businesses controlled by billionaires than to give it to the unions who give it to the democrats who hire more workers to join the union. The billionaires are not the problem. The billionaires like beer too, do you side with them on that?

garage mahal said...

Instapundit talking about pampered state employees? Ha! He gets paid by TN taxpayers to blog.

madawaskan said...

Look someone feel free to correct my math here.

But if you read Don't Tread 2012's comment he says his wife pays

$875 in union dues annually.

There are 160,000 WEA members ( I gotta go verify that) but that adds up to

140 million

Doesn't it?

Wow.

Marshal said...

Poor garage. Somehow he didn't get the message that envy is not a sound basis for public policy. But read him if you want to see where our education system is taking us. His thoughts never rise above 'someone else has more than I and I'm going to take it', yet he's managed to convince himself this constitutes high philosophy.

PaulV said...

Why should the state be in the power generation business? Would buyer be subject to regulation? Since tuition rates go nup much faster than inflation why expect better with power generation?

madawaskan said...

OK scratch that they have 98,000 members.

The Wisconsin Education Association Council is 98,000 state teachers and Education Support Professionals united to maintain strong schools and communities in Wisconsin. We're committed to Moving Education Forward.

iftheshoefits said...

I say bust the billionaires AND the unions.

If the too-big-to-fail banks had simply been left alone they would have all collapsed. No TARP bailouts and no multi-million dollar paydays for people who took stupid risks. Where are the prosecutions from Holder's DOJ? Nada. That was what started the Tea Party protests. Peasant mentality, my ass.

MayBee said...

Really, the union is a protection scheme. Its existence is a component of the utter failure of modern education.

I keep asking the pro-teachers' union people here to give us the pro-union argument from the taxpayer/employer point of view.

Nobody is making the argument about how the unions are good for the taxpayers, or why school boards would choose to work with them.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@madawaskan

No kidding. In our case, its NY State, but I don't think the figure of $875 I gave you would be much different in Wisconsin.

madawaskan said...

So the WEAC collect about 86 million in union dues.

But then there is the Teacher's Assistant association....

Revenant said...

Instapundit talking about pampered state employees? Ha! He gets paid by TN taxpayers to blog.

So he speaks from experience? :)

madawaskan said...

Don't Tread 2012

Well I'm sure someone here knows what the annual dues are....

Wow I'm still floored.

garage mahal said...

Garage: Billionaires could give less of a shit about the schoolteacher's in Wisconsin.

I'm sure some do, most don't. I don't recall saying they do.

MayBee said...

For what it's worth, the NEA is one of the sponsors for the 2011 Netroots Nation.

Triangle Man said...

WEAC Dues

$712 per year, but divided into three organizations. Plus local dues unspecified.

TAA dues (UW Madison teaching assistants) are about $200 per year.

madawaskan said...

Roesch Voltaire



From the WEAC recent tweets:

RT @jimwitkins: Go in shifts #WIunion protesters: take care of yourselves. It's a marathon, not a sprint. We'll be at this for awhile...
about 5 hours ago via HootSuite
RT @andrewkroll: Need a ride? #wiunion organizers look to have you covered... http://twitpic.com/42267l
about 5 hours ago via HootSuite
RT @mikeelk: I feel like a combat correspondent landing in a hot LZ - finally arrived at ground zero of the class war - Madison #wiunion

AJ Lynch said...

Re Robert Reich saying "Republicans believe we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation".

I like to do the old "back of the envelope" calculation. Today, public schools cost an average of about $6,000 per household. Think about that and ask how much more can we afford to spend? I don't think Rober Reich ever calculates the back of the envelope spending.

Alex said...

AJ - Robert Reich is a big central planner. So he thinks in terms of trillions. High-speed trains, renewable energy initiatives, shovel-ready projects.

madawaskan said...

Roesch Volltaire

Here are the most recent tweets from the WEAC:

Your @weac tweeps are recharging earlyto prepare for the week. Follow #wiunion for ?s and As and we'll be back in the a.m. Solidarity!
about 5 hours ago via HootSuite

RT @jimwitkins: Go in shifts #WIunion protesters: take care of yourselves. It's a marathon, not a sprint. We'll be at this for awhile...
about 5 hours ago via HootSuite

RT @andrewkroll: Need a ride? #wiunion organizers look to have you covered... http://twitpic.com/42267l
about 5 hours ago via HootSuite

RT @mikeelk: I feel like a combat correspondent landing in a hot LZ - finally arrived at ground zero of the class war - Madison #wiunion

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@madawaskan

Some good information here

http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/state.cfm?state=NY

about NY State teachers unions. There are dollar amounts and other interesting items on the page.

In case you were curious.

madawaskan said...

Here is the bio of the journalist Mike elk that they retweeted:

Labor Journalist and third generation union organizer writing for Harper's Magazine, In These Times, and MichaelMoore.com

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@madawaskan

Use the drop down to change to Wisconsin for your state information.

madawaskan said...

Don't Tread On Me 2012

Thanks, I wonder if the WEAC site has the same transparency.

madawaskan said...

Don't Tread 2012

Use the drop down to change to Wisconsin for your state information.


Ah ha!

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Here's another interesting site I've stumbled on these last few weeks:

http://laborpains.org/

Revenant said...

why should we pit middle class against middle class, or lower class, in this debate?

Because the "half" of the middle class that actually produces things is sick to death of supporting your "half" of the middle class with our tax money. Do rich people sometimes screw us over too? Sure. Just not nearly as much as people like you.

I'm thrilled to hear that you think you should contribute "something" to your retirement benefits. Here in the private sector we typically have to cover between 95 and 100% of our retirement benefits -- plus, of course, most of yours.

Brian Hancock said...

Isn't that a Merle Haggard song . . . "we don't drink tea in Wiscsonin"

MayBee said...

American Federation of Teachers is also a sponsor of Netroots Nation this year.

garage mahal said...


Because the "half" of the middle class that actually produces things is sick to death of supporting your "half" of the middle class with our tax money.


Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

Calypso Facto said...

Thanks for the links Don't Tread. I like the contributions by party chart that shows only 1% support of Republicans. Walker's got nothing to lose in opposing public unionists who donate millions in taxpayer money exclusively to Sugar Daddy Democratic legislators.

Triangle Man said...

Thanks, I wonder if the WEAC site has the same transparency.

@madawaskan

Posted a link from WEAC above.

madawaskan said...

OK so here is WEAC 2008 tax return

WEAC PDF

And they have a bout a $25 million in annual revenue.

Thing is there is all these other teacher unions in WI do you add that in-and you are getting a pretty large fund to create havoc for the rest of Wisconsin's citizens.

Name City Total Revenue Tax Period
Wisconsin Education Association Council Madison $ 25,480,973 2008
Milwaukee Teachers Education Association Milwaukee $ 4,213,125 2008
American Federation Of Teachers Madison $ 3,674,714 2008
American Federation Of Teachers Milwaukee $ 1,165,715 2008
American Federation Of Teachers West Allis $ 1,040,758 2008
Northwest United Educators Madison $ 1,030,793 2008
Coulee Region United Educators La Crosse $ 1,029,205 2008
Cedar Lake United Educators Madison $ 912,975 2008
West Central Education Association Menomonie $ 843,697 2007
United Northeast Educators Madison $ 752,485 2008
Source: Data obtained from the Department of Education's 2007-2008 Schools and Staffing Survey.
Teacher Contracts

Name District Occupation
Racine Education Association Racine Teachers
Painters of Racine Unified School District, Allied Trades Local 108 Racine Painters
Racine Educational Assistants Association Racine Educational Assistants
Racine Unified School District Carpenters, Local 161 Racine Carpenters
Service Employees International Union Local 152 Racine Clerical

Sofa King said...

Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

Let me ask you a question, Garage. Imagine the police in your town go on strike. You see a crowd of people looting the electronics store. You know full well they will never be caught or suffer any punishment for their actions.

Do you join them? If not, why not?

madawaskan said...

There's actually more unions associated with the teachers and schools but I can't get the more link to load.

madawaskan said...

Triangle Man

Ya I was already there couldn't find the Council President's Mary Bell's salary.

I'm seeing $178,000 and $400,000 + benies being reported with no source.

So I'll go take a second look for it.

madawaskan said...

laborpains.org

Ha!

E.M. Davis said...

I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that there's a Teacher's Assistant Union.

Revenant said...

Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative.

You asked me last week why I don't get a public sector job. I'm not sure if you missed my response or just ignored it, but here it is again. You asked:

why aren't you working in a public job?

Three reasons:

1. I think the government is too big by a factor of about 10, and I don't want to be "part of the problem".

2. Government jobs reward seniority, not competence and productivity. I don't want to work in that kind of environment.

3. I like doing work that provides a benefit to others. Most government work is parasitical, not beneficial.

AJ Lynch said...

Madawaskan:
Did you notice the union answered "No" on the 990 Form where it was asked "Do you get involved in supporting political candidates? (I am paraphrasing a bit)"

iftheshoefits said...

"Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so."

Heh. Hardly. You need do need an inclination to not ever want to bust your chops much, nor be creative or innovate. Union co-workers can get really threatened and irritable by those kinds of behavior.

I saw all I wanted to see of that kind of attitude the 1st two years out of college, and vowed I would never go there.

Fen said...

Garage: Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

Ha. I think the pics and news from the last few days demonstrates that public sector employees are not as bright or educated as you pretend.

AJ Lynch said...

Bell may get a salary from more than one labor group. I think oldtimers like Jimmy Hoffa started that a long time ago so [for instance] big shots would get a salary from the local union, the area council, state council and the national umbrella group.

PaulV said...

Garage has a good idea. Screw the teachers union cartel: bid out the contract to provide teachers for the schools. Competition works.

madawaskan said...

AJ

No-I completely missed that.

Man.

madawaskan said...

E.M. Davis

I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that there's a Teacher's Assistant Union.

TosaGuy is going to be upset they don't have a

Drummers of the Drum Circle Union.

garage mahal said...

"I refuse to accept huge pay raises and generous retirement packages for MY principles!". Who wants to enrich your family and retire early anyway!?

I remember that one Revenant.

MadisonMan said...

Are Wisconsinites still the biggest per capita brandy drinkers?

Many many BOFS drinkers say YES!

traditionalguy said...

After hearing about the hard times coming on unions, my first thought is that we need a Union of Union Employees. The salaries for Intimidation Specialists are much too low. Without the thugs, there could be no unions, so they need raises today!

Calypso Facto said...

Maybe the Badger14 LIKE just sitting back and reaping the benefits of their faux martyrdom? (via Journal Sentinel):

More than 11,000 donors from around the country have given $280,000 to the State Senate Democratic Committee via ActBlue.com, a national website that funnels money from various sources for Democratic causes.

But wait! During the Johnson campaign, Democrats said out of state money was a BAD thing (even though Feingold collected more than Walker). Sheeesh. I can't keep up with the cowardice of your convictions, Dems.

Calypso Facto said...

Are Wisconsinites still the biggest per capita brandy drinkers?

Um (or is it Yum?), well yeah!

"Wisconsin is our number one state," says Margie Healy, director of public relations for the California-based Korbel. "We export 385,000 cases a year, and 139,000 go directly to Wisconsin. That's one-third of our total production."

Fen said...

We need a Taxpayers Union.

If you reside in the State and pay taxes, you are required to join.

And the State will take 1% out of your paycheck as a donation of the RNC.

I wonder how many of our union-defenders would be cool with that?

Calypso Facto said...

Oops. Should read:

(even though Feingold collected more than Johnson)

D'oh.

MayBee said...

Fen- what could the argument be against such a union. We obviously must be protected from the government. Isn't that what this weekend's argument about collective bargaining tells us?

Jay said...

@Jay

Now I see. You have no idea how the Wisconsin Retirement System works.


Huh?

The state is paying for their retirement.

I am not sure what your point is.

Jay said...

They want to bust unions to pad their bottom line. You want to bust unions...to pad their bottom line.

"busting" public sector unions pads billionaire bottom lines!

Who knew!

Jay said...

@Jay

You bolded a section indicating that public sector employees have more expensive health insurance benefits than private employees.


Huh?

I bolded the section pointing out that the employer portion is paid at a higher cost.

Meaning: they contribute more.

You can understand this, can't you?

Jay said...

You have a very geologic view of the word permanent.

Actually, I have a very realistic view.

Using your "logic" the Clinton 1993 tax rate hikes were "permanent"

How'd that work out?

Revenant said...

"I refuse to accept huge pay raises and generous retirement packages for MY principles!". Who wants to enrich your family and retire early anyway!? I remember that one Revenant.

Not wanting to sell out my principles for cash is one of my three motives, yes.

What's funny, though, is that you think mocking that position makes ME look bad. :)

Pogo said...

"These charges are very serious and in response the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and the University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, two of the entities that comprise UW Health, will immediately launch an investigation of the reported behavior."

"The investigation will identify which UW Health physicians were involved and whether their behavior constituted violations of medical ethics or University of Wisconsin and UW Health policies and work rules. The investigation and any potential future action will follow the established procedures of the University of Wisconsin. Any future disciplinary action taken will be considered a personnel matter, and in accord with University of Wisconsin policies, will not be open to public discussion."

The Wisconsin Medical Society says they do not condone the physician's actions under any circumstances.
"

Pogo said...

Wis. doctor who distributed medical notes draws scrutiny

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mrs whatsit said...

Garage: Get a job in the public sector dude if it's so easy and lucrative. Or, maybe you need a/more education and/or skills to do so.

You have cleverly placed your finger on the heart of the problem, Garage! Now please explain, once everybody has followed your advice and transferred themselves to the public sector because the jobs are so much better there -- who's going to pay their salaries?

Pogo said...

"Another agency, the Wisconsin Medical Society, also has begun to review the doctors’ work over the weekend.

Their excuse slips will be sent to the human resources department for review, according to Roseann St. Aubin, spokeswoman for the Milwaukee Public Schools.

“There’s no rubber stamp,” she said.
"

madAsHell said...

Is that a dude?...or a dudette?

AJ Lynch said...

Pogo:
What is the problem? Was their handwriting too legible? Heh.

Pogo said...

Wisconsin's Real Doctors and Their Fake Sick Notes

"UW's doctors have demeaned not only the doctor-patient relationship, but in so doing, risked the stature doctors hold in our discourse on public policy.


"I couldn't imagine just walking up to people with a stack of work excuses, 'What's your name? Here you go.' ... It reflects poorly on the practice of medicine, and it reflects poorly on physicians who actually do take the time and effort try to determine whether someone is ill and is legitimately away from work," he adds.

These doctors sacrificed a slice of the medical profession's credibility for a political cause. Was it worth it? The fallout is mounting.
"

TMink said...

"We need a Taxpayers Union."

Outstanding idea. I think Scott Walker is the president of the Wisconsin chapter.

Trey

Pogo said...

@AJLynch:

Wxntren cckas ds a nmwsjn 34 mcl;e.

TMink said...

This reminds me of the only time a patient approached me about comitting insurance fraud.

He was a medical ethicist.

Trey

Calypso Facto said...

Even funnier when you watch the debate animated with robot voices at xtranormal.

Almost Ali said...

The Wisconsin Medical Society says they do not condone the physician's actions under any circumstances.

Uh huh.

AJ Lynch said...

Haha Ok Doc - you are a real one!

Pogo said...

@Almost Ali

Well, not when anyone is watching.

section9 said...

Althouse got the Progressive Doctors In Trouble!

Althouse got the Progressive Doctors In Trouble!

Strikebreaker! Strikebreaker!

Scab! Scab!

garage mahal said...

Camel sighting in Madison. WTF? Jon Stewart in town?

Pogo said...

@AJ Lynch

My signature looks like a Rorschach test.

Either animals playing poker, or a blueprint for a shoe factory.

Alex said...

Norman Goldman just accused the Republicans, Tea Party and Koch Brothers of committing murder against unions.

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