January 9, 2011

"When Althouse says that most gays are just individuals and many reject stereotypes, I say 'You go, girlfriend!' (snap)."

"'Coming out' doesn’t mean coming to terms with the fact you’re gay — it means publicly identifying yourself so the Gay Police can find you and kidnap you into the Gay Borg. It’s easier for the Gay Police to round you up if you believe that Flyover Country is hostile to gays to you move to a Gay Urban Area. Then, the Borg can save expenses for rounding you up since you jumped into the pen voluntarily. For me, the process of accepting my sexuality meant rejecting the gay community because they didn’t offer a model for sexual behavior which had anything to do with my values. All of my friends are straight since my core identities are masculine, Christian, etc. Gay is way down on the list. I am glad that many gays are refusing to join the Borg, even if it means sacrificing the toaster."

A comment over at GayPatriot.

39 comments:

Robin said...

That's an interesting comment that I'm going to have to think about. I am surprised to see a discussion of things that trouble me about the gay culture written by someone who identifies themselves as gay.

woof said...

t’s easier for the Gay Police to round you up if you believe that Flyover Country is hostile to gays to you move to a Gay Urban Area

Texas Republican 2010 platform:

We believe that the practice of homosexuality tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should “family” be redefined to include homosexual “couples.” We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, refuse to recognize, or grant special privileges including, but not limited to: marriage between persons of the same sex (regardless of state of origin), custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.

Dark Eden said...

<>

And yet despite that, day to day, many die hard Republicans who believe homosexuality is a sin are kind, nice, friendly and open to gays.

I guess its the 'hate the sin not the sinner' thing that leftists seem to have a hard time wrapping their brain around? Or the 'Christian charity' thing? I dunno. Most Christians are really nice people if you give them a chance.

Bisexual myself here (and non Christian) and I can personally attest to the truth of the old canard, 'its easier to be gay among republicans, than republican among gays.'

John said...

I'm gay and in my late 20s, and for a long time was reluctant to associate myself with the "gay community." I still have problems with the lack of understanding for and flexibility that many gays have with respect to diverging political beliefs.

Still, I feel bad for somebody who has decided to reject other gays because of a narrow objection to political differences. Gay people are awesome and the experience of growing up gay and going through life as a gay person is something only another gay person can understand. I'm not saying gay people should segregate themselves, but to reject other gays wholesale means you're missing out on a lot. That would make me really sad.

EDH said...

"Coming out” doesn’t mean coming to terms with the fact you’re gay – it means publicly identifying yourself so the Gay Police can find you and kidnap you into the Gay Borg.

A concise explanation of one of my trepidations about repeal of DADT.

With full repeal, the next step on the activist agenda will be the imposition of a "Gay Police" within the military from the civilian portion of the Pentagon, probably to the consternation of a majority of enlisted gays whose "core identities" are much more in line with this commenter's.

While I'm hopeful there would be a push-back from the ranks, my fear is that gays in the military may not know what it really means to be "closeted" until "gay rights" are finally sanctioned in the military.

woof said...

All of my friends are straight since my core identities are masculine, Christian, etc. Gay is way down on the list

Who you love is way down on the list ? That seems sad to me.

The Crack Emcee said...

I think the same way about being black:

I had to shake off what I was raised with culturally, without shaking my family, and came out an individual.

As far as gays are concerned, I have lots of gay friends - people I honestly love - and I'm as conservative as they come. But I refuse to give in to the "gay community", just as I refused to give in to the "black community", seeing us all as individuals - and, most importantly, Americans - and I think that, too, has always been my conservatism expressing itself. The "gay community" is sexist, and racist, and superior-minded, all quite troubling when you understand it.

That NewAge search for "yourself" is an invitation for a multitude of charlatans to get their hands on "you" - because you're "you" already - someone worthy of standing up for.

"You" just don't get that yet.

The Crack Emcee said...

Woof,

Who you love is way down on the list ? That seems sad to me.

He didn't say "who" but how.

EDH said...

Who you love is way down on the list? That seems sad to me.

This comment reflects the commenter's exact point about gays being "individuals."

Placeing one's sexual orientation down the list isn't sad for gays -- or straights. Think about the reaction to someone who said the most important part of his core identity was his heterosexuality? A common response would be, "My, you sound insecure."

Being gay (or straight) is about why you love who you love.

Who you love is an individual choice, not about which identity group you belong to. Maybe he's single, and therefore "who" he loves is a non-issue at this time.

Why he loves who he loves should be down the list, especially if you believe it's innate.

knox said...

Not only do identity-based groups subvert the individual to the group's interests... they subvert the group's interests to leftist interests.

We saw this principle in action when feminists abandoned Paula Jones, Linda Tripp, Juanita Broaderick, and Kathleen Willey to defend Bill Clinton.

In the same way, Condi Rice and Colin Powell were branded "House Slaves" instead of national heroes.

Too bad so many gays and blacks misguided first allegiance is to the Democrat Party ... not other gays or blacks.

Clever how the Left worked that magic trick. It's brilliiant, really.

woof said...

Clever how the Left worked that magic trick. It's brilliiant, really.

I'm in my early 50s. It's far different being gay now then it was when I was growing up.

The reason the left captured the gays is because the right wouldn't have us. After all, according to the Texas Republican party, being gaytears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit

We formed identity groups because there was safety in numbers and it took numbers to change minds and laws.

PatCA said...

"He didn't say "who" but how."

Thread winner!

This development of non-activist gays shows a maturing of society, just like all the Muslims in Egypt who showed up to protect the Copts at Christmas Mass. They don't need a blowhard with a bullhorn to tell them how to be human.

Beth said...

As usual, the truth is not an either/or. It's been a long time since I've belonged to any "gay community" but that's because there WAS a "gay community" in the past, a political and social movement pushing for people to come out and be ourselves. Being out meant regular folks had to come to terms with the fact that there are gay people in their workplace, in their families, and what the hell, they're not aliens. Things have changed so much since I was a queer teenager. Maybe young queer people now have no idea just how much, and they find it easy to dismiss what others went through to allow them to bitch about the gay community.

knox said...

We formed identity groups because there was safety in numbers and it took numbers to change minds and laws.

I can understand that, certainly.

But things *have* changed. The antagonism, the borg-like mindset is counterproductive at this point. In my opinion.

I would like to see gay marriage succeed, and I want to see gays able to serve openly in our military.

Some conservatives are going to be against these things, no matter what. But I think many, if not most, would embrace gays if their spokespeople made it seem more like gays value exactly the same thing as straights.

As it is, the militant, leftist gay activists come across like pushing the agenda is the number one value, damn the consequences. This attitude and approach posees the biggest threat to the success of either venture.

Anyway, I happened to come across thisgoogling this topic. Pretty cool.

knox said...

Things have changed so much since I was a queer teenager.

Beth, the Pixar video I linked to brought tears to my eyes.

I am so grateful that if either of my kids turns out to be gay, they will live in a much easier time.

Moose said...

The first thing that falls apart in an identity based political system is the unit cohesion that first brings them together. As advances are made, the oppositional forces that brought them together decline and those people the who first came together to survive have less and less reason to sacrifice their individuality for the group protection.
The group, and particularly the group leaders then must start exaggerating the perception of those forces so that they are still relevant in the group dynamic.
That's what this comment reveals - the almost fanatical adherence to the idea of being gay by part of the gay "community". That community has lost significant portions of it's relevance as straights have come to accept gays.

Get out of closet, kids.

Palladian said...

There is no such thing as the "gay community", just as there is no such thing as the "black community" or the "latino community". Applying the term "community" to an innate physical or character trait is a fiction, invented for political and pseudo-therapeutic purposes. The term only applies to voluntary associations of people, since the key element of a real community is choice- you choose to enter or leave the association of people at your own discretion. If you wrongly apply the status of "community" to innate characteristics, you've created a prison from which there is no escape, since there is no escape from the innate, essential elements of our selves.

There are as many kinds of gay people as there are people, just as there are as many kinds of black people as there are people, and it's absolutely laughable and simultaneously horrible and sinister that anyone could ever presume that people with similar essential characteristics share any similar beliefs or ideas. This is the tyranny of tribalism, one of the root causes of human misery, popping up yet again like a poisonous toadstool.

Many gay people (myself included) have fallen victim to the fiction of identity-based community. Growing up in a small, rural town, I struggled to find an external definition of humanity that fit with what I knew of my self- my beliefs, my likes, my dislikes, my desires, my imagination of the future. I saw what I presumed was the local definition of a man and realized that to embrace that as a definition of my humanity or my identity as a man would be to accept a falsehood. So I ran from one falsehood, unknowingly, into the arms of another, the fiction of the "gay identity". I suppose it served some purpose in my development, but I quickly realized that the "embrace" that I sought and briefly though I had found was in the arms of a phantom. And when those phantom arms of the "gay community" disappeared, I was as alone as I would have been had I been dropped by any false embrace.

With time, I realized that there is no permanent definition of humanity external to the self, no false comfort of essential "communities" that I needed to find my way in the world. I came to see any external identities that I can not freely accept and discard as sources of imprisonment. Unfortunately many people, gay, black, hispanic, or otherwise cling to fictions that do not give them any real comfort or help them find their way in the world. And politically motivated people long ago discovered the usefulness of exploiting those so imprisoned, cynically threatening such weak-minded people with an ontological threat: agree with me or I will pull your identity out from under you and you'll be set adrift like an outcast.

The key is to not lose yourself in a fiction.

Palladian said...

And I must add that this idea of "finding an external definition of humanity" is something I believe that every child and adolescent goes through. But for some, like a chubby, autism-spectrum, hyper-verbal, loner boy (who liked other boys), there's no comfortable external identity available at all. I think for other kinds of people, whose interests and temperament and sexuality more easily fit available paradigms of identity, the struggle for differentiation and self-hood is much less... noticeable. This is also perhaps why more "average" gays find what they think of as solace in the "gay identity".

It's probably very different for kids growing up today, gay or otherwise.

Ralph L said...

pushing the agenda is the number one value
Or poking one's opponents in the eye. See the Episcopal Church.

The militants eventually go from the vanguard to the margins, but they still have too much influence and crowd out new blood. See Cornel West.

Beth said...

knox, thanks for linking to that. Your kids will be wonderful, no matter what - they've got you.

peter hoh said...

I applaud this comment. I think that people should stand up for their right to be viewed as people rather than as members of some identity group.

I think the "Gay Police" who think all gay people should agree with them have their counterpart among those who oppose gay rights and insist that all gay people think and act alike.

sonicfrog said...

+ 1 on Palladians comment.

I am 45 and gay. Things were harder for those who came to terms with being gay than when I finally accepted to accept me. I can and do completely understand why the heart of the open gay movement identified with the left more than the right.

I understand why many still do.

That said, too many have failed to acknowledge the changes in the attitudes of many (most?) on the right side of the isle. Many don't like the thought of gays serving openly in the military (based more on the term "open' and what that has come to be as a stereotype) and are opposed to gays being able to get married. But it's not the same as it was when I was younger.

The Sonic-Mate and I have been together for 14 = years. My family-in-laws are pretty strict Mormon. They found out Greg was gay early on in our relationship, as his evil ex decided to tell his mom as revenge for Greg dumping him. The elders of the family are in the anti-DADT repeal / anti-gay marriage camp. Actively raised funds for Prop 22, and donated to the "Yes on Prop 8" campaign.

Putting those two item aside, I have gone on the family trips with them almost from the beginning of the relationship (shared the bed with the Mate, as in, you and Greg can sleep in this room), been there with the family when the grandfather and father passed away, and have been to some of the Mormon services. Despite the philosophical differences, I am treated... No... I AM part of the family.

This work because, though I am gay, that aspect of my life does not dominate my identity. I am a musician... A teacher... A business owner... An auto mechanic... A son... A brother... An uncle...

And I happen to be gay.

sonicfrog said...

... And I have to go play some guitar now.

sonicfrog said...

PS. Contrast the reaction of my Mormon in-laws on the reaction to me dating their son, to the reaction of my gay friends and liberal little brother when I told them I was going to vote for Bush in 2000.....

My friends literally gasped in shock and proceeded to yell at me "WTF is wrong with you" interrogation began. They were aghast! I almost got kicked out of the bar we happened to be in when I said that.

My liberal little brother won't have me over for dinner when I am in San Diego, because my political leanings are too uncomfortable for him and his wife to deal with. They get very bent over the fact that I'm gay and not liberal.

OK. I really have to go now.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Beth: As usual, the truth is not an either/or. It's been a long time since I've belonged to any "gay community" but that's because there WAS a "gay community" in the past, a political and social movement pushing for people to come out and be ourselves.

I think the "gay community" now is more or less a business. That's not to say I think it will disappear; it makes money for people and provides an outlet for signaling social status.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Robin: I am surprised to see a discussion of things that trouble me about the gay culture written by someone who identifies themselves as gay.

I saw a play the other night, all the characters were gay men. The main character catches his husband cheating and spends the rest of the play trying to make him understand how important faithfulness is in a marriage.

I saw a movie last year. A gay teen has a boyfriend he loves. Gets sent to boarding school; some cute guy makes the move on him but he decides to stay faithful to his boyfriend.

That's gay culture right now.

Kent Alan said...

Thanks Althouse for getting this ball rolling. Thanks Palladian and Sonic Frog for your posts that express everything so much better than I can.

I grew up a popular, athletic kid who was a good student in a rural Midwestern town. I did not have the bullying experience so many suffer because it was hard for these losers to bully someone who would kick their arses in a game.

I came out in college, it was not always a smooth path but over time and usually a very short time, my family and friends came to accept this "new" info about me. Their hesitation came from their fear this would change me or as for my parents, that this would make my life more difficult. The AIDS epidemic was in full bloom. It was my health not my sexual preference that concerned them.

I met someone just after school and we moved east to the big city. It was exciting, it was fun, I had a career, things were going great for a time. It was quite a difference being around so many other gay people. It was liberating in many ways but over time the luster of my new hometown faded.

I think it began when I got into an argument at an AIDS fundraiser where this blowhard was going on about Reagan causing AIDS. I calmly pointed out to this person that AIDS was a virus and we'd be much better off focusing on people's health and behavior than expending energy on trying to score political points. My remarks would have been met with violence if someone had not restrained this person. I was asked not to be involved with the charity any further! WTH?

Over time, the subtle digs at my roots, my family and friends from "the cornfields" wore thin. I became more outspoken about my values and politics which served to isolate me more. I found my partner valued his new social contacts more than he did our relationship. I was pretty much ostracized.

So, long story short, I moved home. I am back in my small town and I am part of a REAL community. The good, the bad and the ugly. I am happy to be here and my community is happy to have me. I participate, I pay my taxes, I cheer on the local sports teams, I mow my lawn, I worship, I have friends and family close by. I am gay and everyone knows it. I am also a Cubs fan and everyone knows that too. SO WHAT. I have discovered real freedom and I am SO glad I left the fraud of the "gay ghetto" behind.

Maybe someday my former urban poser friends will become as welcoming to those who are different as my redneck, hick neighbors GOD BLESS THEM. I have not given up hope.

sonicfrog said...

Kent, I was right with you... Until you said you were a CUBS FAN....

What The F*** Is Wrong With You?????????

:-)

Zeke said...

Sonic...You obviously suffer from Cubsophobia. You need some diversity training. Classes are at Clark and Addison - April through October in the bleachers. lol.

John said...

EDH,

Not to worry about repeal of DADT or, more importantly, the underlying law.

Under the recently passed so-called repeal bill it is not actually repealed until about 8 different people including the Chiefs of Staff and the Prez certify that it will not impact military readiness and a number of other conditions.

Only then does it actually take effect. Only then can it be said that the law against homosexual activity has been repealed.

I offered a bet before to Revenant and anyone else and will offer it again.

I bet $5 that 1 year from today homosexual activity by military members is still illegal under federal law.

Revenant did not see fit to take me up on it. Nor did anyone else.

IS that because you call believe the December DADT Repeal Act is a meaningless sham?

John Henry

E-mail johnfajardohenry@gmal.com if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is.

downtownlad said...

Wow Ann - Meade has really pushed you down the anti-gay road hasn't he?

You might want to see a psyche, because you're obviously still having issues dealing with your son being gay.

It's not him that has the problem Ann. There's nothing wrong with being gay. It's you.

downtownlad said...

And just to be clear - I have never met any gay person who doesn't consider themselves to be an "individual" first and foremost. And that the accusation that most gay people engage in groupthink is simply insulting.

Is that how Ann views her son?

But I will fight for my rights, and I'll insult any gay Republican who chooses to associate with an organization that deems them to be second class citizens.

Remember - EVERY SINGLE REPUBLiCAN MEMBER OF THE SENATE voted against DADT repeal. EVERY SINGLE ONE (I'm referring to the vote in October.

How much self-loathing you must be to associate yourself with a political party that favors putting gay people in jail for having sex (see Montana and Texas and 17 other states), that makes it illegal for gay people to have contracts with each other (see Virginia) that favors making it illegal to get married (see 46 states), that favors making it illegal to donate blood (see the entire United States), that favors making it illegal to serve in the military (see every Republican member in the Senate). Or favors therapy to force you to become straight (see Sarah Palin's church).

Yes - Gay republicans hate themselves. The question is why?

peter hoh said...

downtownlad, your petty vindictiveness is getting tedious.

John said...

EDH:

Don't worry about repeal of DADT. It has not been repealed and is not likely to be repealed.

More importantly, the law prohibiting homosexual activity by military members has not been repealed either.

See the bill passed in Deccember.

A number of people have to certify that it will not harm military preparedness before repeal happens. If any one of them do not sign off on the certification, it doesn't happen.

I've offered to bet $5 that a year from now homosexual acts (though not homosexuality)by military members will still be illegal.

Any takers?

John Henry

If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is, e-mail me

johnfajardo henry at g mail

John Henry

WV: Culte-Isn't that what the original writer was objecting to? The culte of gayness?

John said...

EDH:

Don't worry about repeal of DADT. It has not been repealed and is not likely to be repealed.

More importantly, the law prohibiting homosexual activity by military members has not been repealed either.

See the bill passed in Deccember.

A number of people have to certify that it will not harm military preparedness before repeal happens. If any one of them do not sign off on the certification, it doesn't happen.

I've offered to bet $5 that a year from now homosexual acts (though not homosexuality)by military members will still be illegal.

Any takers?

John Henry

If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is,Let me know.

John Henry

sonicfrog said...

DTL: Why?

Because I've never personally been told to my face by a Republican that:

If I don't believe the same things they do, I don't belong.

If I don't believe in creation or intelligent design, then I am anti-God (I'm agnostic BTW, so I kind of am... sort of)

If I believe the basic science underlying global waring, but don't buy the alarmist rhetoric , then I am a denier, jester, zombie, retarded, stupid, intellectually deformed


AND

I've NEVER been told "What the F*** is wrong with you" for not being a rabid zealot and placing the good of the nation over my own personal wants and needs.

------------------------

And Zeke... Or Kent... Or who ever you are... Your Jedi-Cubs-mindtricks won't work on me.... I'm a Padres fan, and my own futility has made me strong, imperious to your mind attacks!!!! :-)

Robin said...

sonicfrog, thanks for your story.

Stuart said...

When I found out my comment on cultural gay stereotypes had been moved over to Ann Althouse's blog, all I could say was, "Omigod! Omigod! Omigod you guys!"

My coming out process was largely about rejecting those who wanted to impose their version of being gay on me, who wanted to sign me up for their agenda. Being publicly persecuted is a way of bringing attention to their agenda, so I felt that being persecuted was a manufactured part of a false gay identity.

I honestly don’t think people are persecuted for being gay, per se. I think people are persecuted on how they CHOOSE to express their sexuality. When I am being myself, when I’m being authentic, then nobody cares. When I want to be transgressive and exotic, then people get annoyed.

I am 50 years old and I grew up in South Dakota. I read Numbers, met Grace Jones when she visited our local Disco, bought Bette Midler's first two albums, did poppers, hung out with two friends who dressed like David Bowie (one was the Thin White Duke and the other was Aladin Sane)and was open about who I was. Nobody persecuted any of us--the Aladin Sane guy was elected Homecoming King.

Somewhere in my early 20s I decided to grow up. The only people who gave me problems were the gays who called me self-loathing.

I am still here in Nebraska. I attend a Bible study as an openly gay man. I go shooting at the gun club on Wednesday nights. I watch Top Shot and Ice Road Truckers. People know I'm gay and they simply don't care.

David said...

Sonicfrog:
The Sonic-Mate and I have been together for 14 = years.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
1) Then you know that you are in a vanishingly small minority within the gay community. Most gay relationships fall apart within 18-24 months.

... and most relationships that last longer than that are open to other sexual partners.
Which brings us to:
2) Is your relationship open and promiscuous? Is is REALLY of a piece with the red-state Xtian imagery you (and others) are evoking in this post?

We have the statistics.
The vast majority of gays are living their personal lives in ways that deeply diverge from "traditional values".

Sorry - but I compulsive promiscuity and a certain adolescent narcissism have surfaced sooner rather than later in every gay person I've ever met.

I am deeply skeptical that there are more than a handful of well-adjusted people who just happen to be attracted to those of their own sex. Although that's the official line, it does not jibe with the statistical evidence coming out of Ministries of Health in gay meccas around the world.