January 21, 2011

"Barack Obama is the most partisan politician since Richard Nixon."

Says Victor Davis Hanson, explaining why call for "civility" is bogus:
His brief Senate record, his health-care partisanship of 2009, his snickering amid audience applause after the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton, and his polarizing metaphorical speech (e.g., knives, guns, kicking ass, getting angry, getting in their face, hostage takers, trigger fingers, tearing up) all attest to that.

That Obama is a postracial mellifluent Chicago politician does not mean that he is not a Chicago politician. That he blasts the “fat cats,” the “stupidly” acting police, and the limb-lopping surgeons, or that his attorney general calls the American people “cowards,” is typical, not aberrant. For 2012, President Obama will have raised $1 billion in cash. He knows from 2008 (“cling to guns or religion,” “typical white person,” “gun to a knife fight”) that his own emotionalism and polarization both earn him cash and create the “them” against “us” (minorities, youth, gays, women) binaries that might draw attention away from an agenda that a majority simply does not want. Obama has always used polarizing politics, coupled with calls for bipartisanship, to great effect, and he surely — as we just saw again in October 2010 (“punish,” “backseat,” “enemies”) — cannot stop now....

Indeed, hours after President Obama’s calls for a new landscape of civility, Rep. Steven Cohen (D., Tenn.) was comparing Republican opponents of the health-care legislation to Nazis from the House floor, while Slate published a screed by Emily Bazelon on  “Why I Loathe My Connecticut Senator,” with serial expressions of how she “loathed” and “despised” Sen. Joe Lieberman.

120 comments:

Florida said...

The single most divisive politician in modern times - without a doubt. Everywhere he goes, everything he does divides us as a nation.

We will do a lot better when we rid outselves of this divisive figure and elect a President who can bring the nation together to solve the problems Obama's partisanship has produced.

David said...

Emily Bazelon can run for Senate, can't she? The seat's open. Let's see how she does.

peter hoh said...

Wait a second, did VDH imply that the president is responsible for the actions of Rep. Cohen and Emily Bazelon?

I thought we just agreed that people are responsible for their own actions. Or was that not a principle that can be widely applied?

Pete said...

Sure, Obama may have said all those things but he was merely being pragmatic. Thus, Althouse's vote is still justified and there's no reason at all for her to admit she erred.

AJ Lynch said...

VDH is my favorite pundit. I enjoy mailing his logically argued and usually brilliant columns to my liberal friends & family.

He is a lot like you Althouse- he takes notice of stuff especially his surroundings and asks how can that be [i.e. food stamp consumers with fancy cars and smart phones or illegal immigrant college kids saying America sucks while complaining they may get deported out of America].

chickelit said...

Hanson is a wise man.

Original Mike said...

I pass a house when I walk to work that has an Obama poster in the window (it's been there ever since they took down the Howard Dean poster in 2008). It says "It's Time to UNITE the Country".

I imagine occupants with a great sense of irony. That's got to be it, right?

David said...

O is also up there in the dishonesty category. From today's Seattle Times:

The claim: A White House fact sheet released Wednesday to coincide with the state visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao said: “In preparation for this visit, several large purchases have been approved including for 200 Boeing airplanes. … The approval, the final step in a $19 billion package of aircraft, will help Boeing maintain and expand its market share in the world’s fastest growing commercial aircraft market.”

What we found: The deal President Hu signed does not include any new jet orders.

Delivering the formal approval during Hu’s visit is designed to make the Chinese government appear responsive to U.S. concerns about the balance of trade.

However, all of the airplanes in the sale were announced and booked by Boeing as firm orders over the past four years. Chinese airlines had already paid nonrefundable deposits and signed contracts for the jets, most of them as far back as 2007.

Scott M said...

Not only that, but the $19B is the list price for those aircraft (we have a Boeing plant in STL and it's been quite the topic lately). Nobody in the industry, especially those with as much clout as the Chinese, pay list price. The actual amount was closer to $11B.

Very disingenuous, but rife with places and verbiage that will allow the administration to walk back their comments if someone calls them on it.

Roger J. said...

Peter Hoh--in general, conservatives believe that people are responsibile for their own actions; In the post-tucson orgy of finger pointing it was the liberals who made the arguments that uncivil rhetoric and actions somehow caused the tragic shooting. VDH is simply saying that the president's actions and words belie his conciliatory comments.

franglo said...

Victor Davis Hanson should stick to disquisitions about the Trojan wars.

The Tea Party-ites may claim "growing political and media opposition to the status quo in Washington" but what they really mean is that conservative Republicans, as they have been since time immemorial, are opposed to "liberals" and Democrats and anything associated with such. It really is the status quo, in which the party of the poor, minorities, workers, and seekers of social justice is opposed by the party of laissez-faire capitalism, plutocracy, and militarism. So it is and so it shall be.

To say Bush Jr.-- he of the electoral mandate after losing the popular vote-- was not hyperpartisan-- well, such a thought could only come out of the mouth of a staunch booster of the Iraq war.

How'd that Iraq war thing work out, VDH? Who now thinks that the Iraq war was worthwhile or delivered anything close to the results that were promised?

PaulV said...

NHO, Jr., took 5 1/2 days to decry hate attacks by the left on Palin.
He refudiated the left only after Palin had to defend herself. Why was he AWOL?

franglo said...

The difference between left and right in this country is really easy to see.

The left's call to arms during the Bush years: opposing the disastrous invasion of Iraq.

The right's call to arms during the Obama years: repealing health care reform, which would give 30 million people insurance (for starters).

I know which side I'd rather be on, for sure.

Original Mike said...

in which the party of the poor, minorities, workers, and seekers of social justice is opposed by the party of laissez-faire capitalism, plutocracy, and militarism.

LOL

Scott M said...

Who now thinks that the Iraq war was worthwhile

Not necessarily I, but Joe Leiberman for one.

Your ham-fisted stereotyping of the population (or aims) of the parties, first and foremost, belies the intellectual laziness underlying your flaccid point.

Failsauce.

And, by the by, as we're all finally figuring out, bipartisanship attempts over the past forty years or so have led us to the problems we now face.

"Bite me" ftw.

DADvocate said...

the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton,

I'm glad Hanson mentioned this. It symbolizes the entirely juvenile nature Obama and his desciples.

As partisan or more so then Nixon, but also more clever. Which is saying a lot.

PaulV said...

franglo
Why are you upset when VDH speaks truth to power? Surely not because he was wrong. Unable to defend BHO, Jr. partisanship you attack the messenger just as the Greek messenger was killed by Persian king.
Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.

Roger J. said...

Re "how did the Iraq war thing work out....? Thus far pretty well considering all the predictions of civil war, and complete collapse of the Iraqi state. Iraq seem to be functioning reasonably well now--It must be since we don't hear the drumbeat of bad news in the media about the failure in Iraq.

MadisonMan said...

I'd say Tom Delay beats Obama. Any House Whip probably would too.

alwaysfiredup said...

"The Tea Party-ites may claim "growing political and media opposition to the status quo in Washington" but what they really mean is that conservative Republicans, as they have been since time immemorial, are opposed to "liberals" and Democrats and anything associated with such."

Attributing false motives=hate speech, you know. Hater.

Roger J. said...

I certainly do agree with Mr Franglo that the distinctions between left and right in this country are easy to see. Good that we can agree on something.

BTW Mr F: how is Mr Obama's excellent Afghanistan adventure working out--that was his priority, not Iraq--not quite so well eh?

chickelit said...

franglo said...The right's call to arms during the Obama years: repealing health care reform, which would give 30 million people insurance (for starters).

If you can't see something insidiously wrong with "giving" somebody something which should be paid for of their own volition you are simply wrong.

Original Mike said...

the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton,


As well as the Republicans at the "health care summit".

PaulV said...

franglo,
Have you forgotten that most of left voted Iraq invasion and then decided to abandon the troops, falsely saying war was lost? Bush used the surge and proved them wrong. Now BHO, Jr. claims credit to winning Iraq war. That is another reason why BO is devisive and only true believers like you swallow his crapola.

DADvocate said...

but what I really mean is that I refuse to think outside of the constructs of left vs right or Dem vs Republican. I will parrot the talking points of the left while ignoring realities such as the left no longer "opposing the disastrous invasion" of a foriegn country. I ignore the unsustainable, nation bankrupting cost of Obamacare while pretending, at no real cost to myself, to be an empathetic person. Instead, I am a pathetic, useful idiot.

Scott M said...

It must be since we don't hear the drumbeat of bad news in the media about the failure in Iraq.

Didn't Biden try to take credit for all the good things in Iraq these days?

Christopher said...

". . .repealing health care reform, which would give 30 million people insurance (for starters)."

To paraphrase Andi Sullivan, I can't quite say which is more gobsmacking, franglo. That YOU are this ignorant, or that you imagine WE are.

franglo said...

the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton : Lie

polarizing metaphorical speech: Seriously? I think to be really effective these examples of Obama's language should be directly correlated to a conservative death. Like after Obama said "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" find a con who was shot that night, or something. Backwards Bs don't count.

his attorney general calls the American people “cowards,”: this quote is only offensive to morons, if read in context. How bitchy and petty can one person possibly be?

an agenda that a majority simply does not want: there is no substance to this claim beyond VDH's personal hyperpartisanship bordering on white supremacy. Have you read his screeds about how the Mexicans are ruining California? Seriously, the guy is a nut. The "majority" according to a good number of polls supports individual components of the health care law... "Health Care Reform" as a whole has suffered, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the relentless drumbeat of "death panel" rhetoric from the right, which offers no solutions to the clearly pressing problems of our system. Oh yeah, interstate insurance... which would fix nothing. "Let the market handle everything." Worked great in 2007.

Scott M said...

How bitchy and petty can one person possibly be?

Read Daily KOS and you're bound to find out before getting past the first few comments.

Lance said...

Wait a second, did VDH imply that the president is responsible for the actions of Rep. Cohen and Emily Bazelon?

No, he didn't. It appears so from the way Dr. Althouse excerpted his column. But read the whole column: Hanson is saying that the "call for civility" gimmick won't work because, first, Pres. Obama himself depends on ultra partisanship to get elected, and second Democrats/progressives themselves are unwilling to discipline their own uncivil demagogues, such as Cohen and Bazelon.

Original Mike said...

the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton : Lie

I can't speak to the Hillary Clinton episode. I did see him do it to the Republicans with my own eyes.

edutcher said...

VDH's unique contribution to commentary is that he always finds a parallel to today's situation in the Classics. And he is usually on the money.

What makes his observation so intriguing is that few people on the Right were more willing to give The Zero the benefit of the doubt as he was.

peter hoh said...

Wait a second, did VDH imply that the president is responsible for the actions of Rep. Cohen and Emily Bazelon?

I thought we just agreed that people are responsible for their own actions. Or was that not a principle that can be widely applied?


No, but talking points can come from the White House as much as Kos (or through it) and people are responsible whether they use those talking points or not.

Scott M said...

@Original Mike

I saw both happen live and thought the Hillary fingering (lol) looked far more purposeful and timed in context. That's not saying the summit fingering wasn't a fingering, just that the Clinton finger (lol) was gone at with more...oh, I dunno...gusto.

franglo said...

I can't speak to the Hillary Clinton episode. I did see him do it to the Republicans with my own eyes.

I saw Victor Davis Hanson committing immoral actions with a goat, with my own eyes. Out there in the vineyards, no one can hear you bleat.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Have you read his screeds about how the Mexicans are ruining California?

I've read his articles about how illegal immigration is breaking bank in California. What are you reading?

The "majority" according to a good number of polls supports individual components of the health care law...

So do I. Unfortunately instead of passing a law containing the good components, they passed a law that contained enough shit to make the whole thing stink. Which explains why the Democratic party was thrashed in the election.

edutcher said...

For those who've seen the fitness post above, consider this on the Slate sidebar:

"Meet Sarah Palin's Radio Lap Dog, Tammy Bruce"

Ah, civility.

And Ms Bruce is, of course, Conservative and gay.

Scott M said...

So do I. Unfortunately instead of passing a law containing the good components, they passed a law that contained enough shit to make the whole thing stink. Which explains why the Democratic party was thrashed in the election.

Hoosier...you know damned well and good there was nothing wrong, ill-conceived, unconstitutional, or over-budget in that law. It was the bad messaging that turned the electoral tide against the Democrats, which was mostly foisted upon them by astro-turfed morons all secretly on the (insert a corporation you hate here) payroll.

DADvocate said...

the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton : Lie

As I said, while ignoring reality.

The trouble with useful idiots is that idiots rarely realize they are idiots. Of course, we see how quickly they decompensate from rational discussion with the goat comment.

Scott M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Original Mike said...

"I saw Victor Davis Hanson committing immoral actions with a goat, with my own eyes."

What he does on his own time is his business.

chickelit said...

franglo said...I saw Victor Davis Hanson committing immoral actions with a goat, with my own eyes. Out there in the vineyards, no one can hear you bleat.

On scale of 1 to 10 for creative humor, that's about a 1. Surely you can do better than that.

PaulV said...

why do libs like franglo lie so much? Because of partisanship encouraged by BHO, Jr.

The Drill SGT said...

Scott M said...
Not only that, but the $19B is the list price for those aircraft (we have a Boeing plant in STL and it's been quite the topic lately).


Boeing announced 1,000 lyaoffs in California yesterday. That China State Dinner bought us a lot of good jobs

Maguro said...

Have you read his screeds about how the Mexicans are ruining California? Seriously, the guy is a nut.

Yeah, what a nut...worrying about the social and economic effects of importing millions of impoverished Third Worlders into this country. Crazy to be concerned about something as trivial as that. I mean, children of illegal immigrants only cost LA County $600M a year. No problem...just raise taxes on them thar oligarchs and plutocrats and it'll all be good, right?

The Drill SGT said...

VDH is an observer of his times. He's a historian / farmer from California's Central valley who rememebers when being a Progressive in CA meant being in favor of good government, low regulation, public works and good schools. When CA was 1st in the nation in public education, not 49th. When Americans were moving to CA instead of out of it.

When the government built water projects that brought jobs and properity instead of turning the water off to help anchovies

The Crack Emcee said...

...his snickering amid audience applause after the “inadvertent” middle-fingering of Hillary Clinton,...

And John McCain. One of the single most divisive - and disgusting - things I've ever seen in a presidential campaign. That anyone would vote for him after that still amazes me - care to do a post explaining that, Ann?

Fuck The New Civility & The Horse It Rode In On.

Mikio said...

The “civility bullshit” tag is bullshit.

Althouse and conservatives are attacking the massive straw man “civil discourse” because it’s much easier for them to aim their mushy spitball salvos at that than deal with the actual target: the liberal complaint which is and has always been since the beginning of the Tea Party movement up through the most intense finger-pointing immediately post-Tucson massacre the much narrower and more distinct issue of political gun rhetoric. They won’t deal with this actual issue because they know that on it they’re the completely guilty, trounced, one-sided losers given the inescapable fact that it’s their side who are the angry, purple-faced, 2nd amendment-fixated huckleberries who are the gun collectors, NOT liberals, and thus are several orders of magnitude more susceptible to using guns as their political “remedy.” Not liberals. Big, huge, massive difference.

Yes, Obama referred to civil discourse in his memorial speech, but that’s because to mention gun rhetoric would have been too pointed and provocative and entirely inappropriate. He instead rose above the fray as the gracious Centrist-in-Chief using terminology that’s more stately and diplomatic, but at the same time more diffuse and inexact and Althouse and conservatives everywhere have seized upon that inexactitude to have a field day of completely misplaced mockery, oblivious to their own tedious buffoonery.

Scott M said...

Boeing announced 1,000 lyaoffs in California yesterday. That China State Dinner bought us a lot of good jobs

Only about 100 here locally, thank God, but Arizona is getting kicked while they are down.

I wonder how these 1000 jobs figure into the "saved or created" calculus.

Big Mike said...

@peter hoh, regarding your 12:14 post, what Obama could have done -- and chose not to (or, more likely, it never crossed his mind to) -- is rebuke Rep. Cohen.

All it would take is a simple press release saying that he has called Rep. Cohen's office and discussed with him the importance of civility in the heat of discussions of Obamacare. He could have done that. He didn't.

And he really is responsible for things that he could have done but didn't make the effort to do, is he not?

Big Mike said...

@Professor, i shouldn't say I told you so. I shouldn't point out that I, and other commentators, tried to warn you about Chicago politicians.

I shouldn't say it.

I'll let Victor David Hansen say it.

The Drill SGT said...

Have you read his screeds about how the Mexicans are ruining California? Seriously, the guy is a nut.

Born and raised in CA here. BA and MBA from UC schools.

The Calfornia of my youth had 12 million folks, 1 million Hispanic.

When I left it was 20 million with 2 million hispanics

Now it has 36 milion, with 14 million hispanics. Those guys aren't all legals.

that is a growth of 16 million of which 12 million are hispanic.

The most recent census shows that California is losing American citzens, and gaining illegals. How long do you think that can be sustained?

PaulV said...

Milko, Again you are wrong. Read this link and find out that vast majority of mass killings are in gun free zones.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229929/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr

Scott M said...

How long do you think that can be sustained?

About as long as your average workers paradise/progressive utopia...roughly 50-60 years.

PaulV said...

Sorry Mikio read and learn http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229929/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr

The Crack Emcee said...

franglo,

I usually leave the Althouse Liberal Re-Education Program™ to my brothers, because - while you're as "gone" as a cultist - I've got my hands full with them, but I will offer you this:

There is no substance to this claim beyond VDH's personal hyperpartisanship bordering on white supremacy. Have you read his screeds about how the Mexicans are ruining California? Seriously, the guy is a nut.

Being from California myself, and a part that's been over-run with illegals, I'll counter with this:

Reverend Wayne Perryman, Ted Hayes, C. Mason Weaver and others address the impact of illegal immigration on the black community in the video below. Unemployment is higher in the black community than in the hispanic community, yet there are those urging an amnesty for illegal aliens. As Ted Hayes points out, some so-called "black leaders" in congress and members of the Congressional Black Caucus do indeed see the devastation of illegal immigration, yet they are afraid to speak out. They don't want to lose votes, they fear violent retaliation in the streets against blacks by hispanics and "they don't want to be called racists".

It seems you don't have to be white, hyperpartisan, or nutty, to feel this way after all. I know I do. I can't go home again because it's gone.

What do you have wrong, franglo?

jr565 said...

Franglo wrote:
How'd that Iraq war thing work out, VDH? Who now thinks that the Iraq war was worthwhile or delivered anything close to the results that were promised?

Let's see - free elections, check. Removal of Sadaam Hussein, check. Violence way down and Iraq turning into a relatively stable state. Check.
If we hadn't invaded Iraq, right now we'd be dealing with a nuclear iran AND an Iraq that was still non compliant. And Iran would look at our handling of Iraq and know they didn't have to comply (they know that anyway beause of how Obama has handled them) beucase Iraq wasn't complying. And Iraq would look at Iran's nuclear program and realize that they had to at least pretend to have weapons as a counter to the threat Iran posed. And we'd still be bickering over access for allowing inspectors in because Sadaam would have reneged on his promise to allow unfettered access as we started delving more into his inner sanctum. OR we would allow the inspectors in, and they would find nothing because Sadaam had either moved or let his stockpiles degrade (while maintaining his means of production) and we would then be faced with the choice of continuing to contain Iraq and sanction Iraq despite the fact that they appeared to not have any weapons (which all sides would use to their advantage and paint us as the evil empire) OR we would end containment and Iraq would go right back to rearming itself. Since it would have to, as per Sadaam's motivation which he described to his handler. Since Iran was going for nuclear weapons, Iraq would need to at least pretend to have weapons so as to not appear weak to its enemies, which were defying the world and getting nukes.
So we'd have two examples of the UN demanding actions and the countries which we demanded action from refusing and us being unwilling to do anything about it. Which would undermine the UN ever further, to the point that, if they're not going to get countries to comply, why are they even bothering to try holding states accountable.
So two states seeking weapons and a containment process that would irrevocably be proven broken in the UN would be the outcome. I don't see how a stable Iraq that is being policed by us is worse than a belligerent Iraq hell bent on arming itself and us being unable to do anything about it.
It's chess, not checkers.

Phil 3:14 said...

Wait a second, did VDH imply that the president is responsible for the actions of Rep. Cohen and Emily Bazelon?

Has any prominent Democratic politician publicly denounced let alone decried Rep. Cohen's words. If the answer is "no" then the call for civility seems disingenuous.

mccullough said...

Obama is the most partisan President since Nixon. But not the most partisan politician. Not even close.

Paul Brinkley said...

@jr565: franglo did have one point: the war in Iraq didn't deliver results close to what I expected.

I didn't expect Saddam to be summarily executed, Uday and Qusay to be killed as well, and I also didn't expect Qaddafi way over in Libya to back down, to boot.

So there you go; he was partly right.

roesch-voltaire said...

Roger that you don't hear the drum beat of bad news from Iraq must mean you only watch Fox News. And Hanson's piece reads like the usual political crap trying to gloss over history as it makes it claims. So much sloppy thinking goes on in the name of politics. I mean mentioning the Boeing Lay off and the Dinner at the White House as though there was some link, or claiming, as many on the Right did, that Obama lied about when Gifford opened her eyes -- if these are partisan times much of the problems seems to lie in the eyes of the beholders.

Trooper York said...

I think it is fair to say that Andrew Cuomo is the most parmesan politican since his father was ruining New York State. Just sayn'

Trooper York said...

I'm sorry but that's what I always think about when we are dicussing how is the most partisan.

Scott M said...

Oh bullshit, roesch. I watch all three major cable outlets and it's nothing like the coverage during the Bush administration...and hell, I'm not even a huge ra-ra for the war in the first place. That may have something to do with an entire extended family of paratroopers. The point is that he's right. It hasn't damped way, way down since the heyday of second-guessing in 2006-2007. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Is it a walk in the park? A rose garden? A bowl full of cherries? Most assuredly not. That doesn't make it country ruled by a despot either. There's plenty of good things going on over there that never get reported as well, but, then again, I guess you're just watching MS-NBC.

Scott M said...

hasn't = has (d'oh)

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maguro said...

r-v, you are behind the times, brother. The "drum beat of bad news" phase has been over for a few years.

Listen to VP Biden:

"The Iraqi people for the first time, I suspect I would argue in their history, are on the verge of literally creating a country that will be democratic, sustainable and God willing prosperous and it can have a dramatic impact on this entire region,"

Mikio said...

Milko, Again you are wrong. Read this link and find out that vast majority of mass killings are in gun free zones.

First of all, National Review Online is a completely biased and thus ineffective and useless piece of crap source. Strike one.

Secondly, the issue of "gun-free zones" has nothing to do with the issue of political gun rhetoric -- namely, who are more inciteful with it and, more importantly, who are more susceptible to it, conservatives or liberals -- so is yet another particle of spittle in the spewfest of conservative evasiveness I was talking about. Strike two.

And thirdly, the first damn shooting (of many) listed in the link I provided took place in a NOT gun-free zone, Knoxville, Tennessee. Strike three, you’re out. Go back to the bench.

Roger J. said...

Hey RV--I havent owned a TV for 3 years--I have no idea what networks or cable report--

my comments were directed at the allegation that Iraq was a failure--I rejected those, although JR565 did a much more thorough job; and it will remain for history to determine how our intervention may or may not change the mid-east

now please sir, tell me why our Iraq intervention was a failure? Especially when Mr Biden asserted the Obama administration had won the war.

Maguro said...

Secondly, the issue of "gun-free zones" has nothing to do with the issue of political gun rhetoric...

And the issue of "political gun rhetoric" has nothing to do with Jared Loughner gunning down 20 people in Tuscon.

Jared Loughner. Was. Not. Interested. In. Politics. Or political gun rhetoric for that matter.

9/11 Trutherism is more directly connected to the Tuscon shootings than political gun rhetoric.

The Crack Emcee said...

Mikio,

2nd amendment-fixated huckleberries

[sing-song voice and pointing]

Mikio doesn't like the Constitution! Mikio doesn't like the Constitution! la-la-la-LA-la!

J said...

Had BushCo and NRA not succeeded in ending the assault weapon ban--thereby making the expanded mags available again in Gun boutiques USA-- Loughner ..and Cho would not likely have happened (then the background search should have shown his psych issues as well). Now , a modality like that may be bit deep for ya, Faguro, but with some work maybe yll get it, eventually.

jr565 said...

Mikio wrote:
Secondly, the issue of "gun-free zones" has nothing to do with the issue of political gun rhetoric -- namely, who are more inciteful with it and, more importantly, who are more susceptible to it, conservatives or liberals -- so is yet another particle of spittle in the spewfest of conservative evasiveness I was talking about. Strike two.

You're making a huge leap of logic. The fact is that both sides use war metaphors to describe elections. Having a district in the crosshairs has been a common metaphor to describe a district in contention from one side, and this rhetoric has been used by both sides for ages. Also, how many right wingers own guns? And of those who owned guns and heard the so called call to reload and arm themselves how many rampages with guns have their been from right wingers? Exactly zero. There have been death threats, but both sides have their crazies, and republicans have received as many death threats as libs. After Palin was targeted read all the twitters of people wishing her dead or to be murdered. Look up the number of facebook groups with thousands of members in existence before Palin ever uttered her words that express a desire to harm palin or think the world would be a better place if she were dead.
Finally, I keep hearing about all the violent rhetoric of the tea partiers and it keeps turning out to be misquoted out of context statements.
You had Palin with her crosshairs and her call to have her folllowres reload. However, it has been shown that the dems have used the exact same maps with their bullseyes before Palin and noone ever thought that these were incendiary calls to arms. And her call to reload was obviously a metaphor since you have to fire your guns to RELOAD, and at the time of the electoins noone had fired any actual guns. Reload simply meant don't give up now, there's more ground to cover and more victories to achieve. And only a total ignoramus (you, for example) would argue otherwise.
Then there was Michelle Bachmann's call to have her supporters armed and dangerous. only the libs conveniently ignore that she was telling them she would give them papers with facts to rebut the proposed legislation and she wanted her supporters armed and dangerous with those facts.
And of course the charge that Beck was saying that we should shoot people in the head. Except he was actually talking about lefties moderates not relying on the extremists because they are liable to shoot them in the head (metaphorically or otherwise) since they are not going to relinguish their need to enact change and aren't going to be willing to compromise.
At every turn your allegations about this overwhelmingly violent rhetoric proves to be lies, lies, lies.

Sofa King said...

J -

How do you imagine the AWB would have had an effect? You know background checks are still required, right?

The Crack Emcee said...

roesch-voltaire,

...or claiming, as many on the Right did, that Obama lied about when Gifford opened her eyes -- if these are partisan times much of the problems seems to lie in the eyes of the beholders.

Dude, open YOUR eyes: Gifferd's doctor announced she opened her eyes on Sunday - three days before Obama said she did it "for the first time."

Now I dare you - in fact, I double-dare you - to refute it. If you can't, then admit it (clearly and without a caveat or a feint) and retain what's left of your credibility. You're a regular:

Start acting like it.

Maguro said...

Tell us about your "gat" again, J. That was awesome.

Roger J. said...

As matter of personal choice, I see no need for anyone who owns a gun to use a large capacity magazine--simply not needed for sporting arms--that said, this question, as BHO noted, is beyond my pay grade

Cedarford said...

The funny thing in this is Nixon operated in a political atmosphere in a bygone era that was quite partisan. Tactics were partisan, at least. His hardball modus operandi was no different than how LBJ, Teddy Kennedy, Sam Rayburn, Harry Truman, Bobby Kennedy approached matters, replete with dirty tricks. But he was anything but "partisan" in policy, even in staffing.

Nixon, unlike Obama, was a progressive centrist. He hired Democrats as advisors. He created a wave of modernizing, centrist reforms. Even Teddy later said his biggest mistake was not accepting Nixon's offer for national health care.

Obama campaigned as "above politics" and then whispered to hyperpartisan San Franny Nancy Pelosi "OK, they elected me...so start pushing anything you want, Nancy, and I'll sign it.

Obama like Nixon in that Chicago politics is a relic of the Truman-LBJ-Nixon era.
Not like Nixon in that he doesn't believe the Silent Majority knows best but Harvard and Manhattan Elitists do.
Has at least tried to be like Nixon in a rational foreign policy approach that rejects Carter idiocy and George Dubya Bush's faith-based Wilsonianism, neocon dogma, and nation-building.
Not like Nixon in that he is nowhere near as smart as Nixon. Bill Clinton was, though lazier than Nixon or Bill's very smart but still less intelligent wife.

Hoover, Nixon, and Bill Clinton show brains are overrated. So a FDR, Reagan, or an Obama still can succeed with some good calls and some luck.
Better, as was said of FDR, to have a 1st class temperment and judgment of character. It more than compensates for a 2nd rate intellect.
No compelling sign Obama is a Reagan or FDR, though.

Scott M said...

Most people that carry concealed are not carrying a spare mag. Hopefully they never have to pull. If they do, they've got a few extra chances to end whatever it is that forced them to pull.

In a perceived life-or-death situation, your aim isn't going to be anything like what it is standing at a shooting range.

Big Mike said...

@jr565, please don't try to talk sense to Mikio. He and people like him are creating Republican voters by the carload.

chickelit said...

Thank you Crack for bringing up that business about the eye opening. I recall watching that moment and thinking that POTUS was creating a powerful moment of miracle, mystery, and authority. His audience certainly gasped as if that were the case.

What a sham to discover the next day it wasn't true and that it appears to have been deliberately staged that way. You can't make that shit up.

It ranks right up there with the denying the middle finger gestures. POTUS's handlers cannot alter the recorded record--yet.

The Crack Emcee said...

J,

Had BushCo and NRA not succeeded in ending the assault weapon ban--thereby making the expanded mags available again in Gun boutiques USA-- Loughner ..and Cho would not likely have happened (then the background search should have shown his psych issues as well). Now , a modality like that may be bit deep for ya, Faguro, but with some work maybe yll get it, eventually.

I've got a stab wound in my back (which should tell you all you need to know about the stabber) so what does that tell you to do, outlaw knives?

Roger J. said...

Crack--since it obviously a failure of law, and laws would prevent these kinds of things, we should just make murder a crime--simply--murder against the law therefor no crime?

fucking idiiots.

Kirby Olson said...

If they bring a knife, we bring a coke spoon.

roesch-voltaire said...

Crack, I can only go by what the neurosurgeon said:
Dr. Michael Lemole, the neurosurgeon who operated on Giffords, said Thursday that visit may have made all the difference.

"I was there when she was surrounded by her friends from the Congress and the Senate. And I think it was a combination, perhaps, of the unexpected but familiar that really prompted her to open her eyes and look around," he said.

As far as the good things happening in Iraq, if you consider the return of al-Sadr good, and the recents bombings, the lack of water, electricity, the exodus of the Christians good, well then it is good.

The Crack Emcee said...

roesch-voltaire,

Crack, I can only go by what the neurosurgeon said,...

I gave you a link to my site that links to the article where it's proven Obama lied. So you do have more that what the neurosurgeon said. I told you to admit you're wrong, clearly, without caveats or feints.

You've got one more shot at retaining some dignity.

J said...

Kirby Olson, weren't you banned from this site, for like not meeting the IQ requirements, not to say racism, sexism, biblethumperism? Stick to like Hallmark.com.

Take semi-autos away from the mentally ill , even ones who vote GOP, support the NRA, or drive pick-up trucks.

Scott M said...

As far as the good things happening in Iraq, if you consider the return of al-Sadr good, and the recents bombings, the lack of water, electricity, the exodus of the Christians good, well then it is good

Apparently the only good snow in your world is the pure, white, undisturbed sort. You'll pardon me while I log off, head home for the weekend, and take my young children out sledding in trod upon, turfed up, packed down, and other wise, imperfect snow. We're going to have a blast. You would just complain, I'd wager.

Have a good weekend.

Roger J. said...

Ahh--a recent bombing in Iraq--of course there was a recent terrorist shooting in Tuscon--is the US a failure because of this? AlSadr? and how has his return reshaped the political landscape? Iraq is in the throes of a civil war? the country is splitting apart? From everything I have read, it doesnt seem to be the case--but you are welcome to your reality, RV--

Roger J. said...

Crack--you are asking far too much of RV

Cedarford said...

Roger J. said...
As matter of personal choice, I see no need for anyone who owns a gun to use a large capacity magazine--simply not needed for sporting arms--that said, this question, as BHO noted, is beyond my pay grade

================
I don't see any need either, Roger. However:


1. I reject the ideas of "experts" telling us that a gun with five rounds is "perfectly adequate" for any citizens self defense needs, but hero cops and hero federal employees need a 15-round clip for their defensive sidearm.
I am generally leery of claims employees of the government "direly need" the extra capability citizens don't need. It leads to talk that citizens should only "need" a single shot shotgun, but law enforcement heroes must retain 8 round pump actions in the future.

2. The reason you have pistols that accept a 30-round magazine is that the military and hero cop arms procurers insist on "interchangability" between magazines for sidearms so a cop can put a 15 round 9mm clip in his Glock tactical SWAT 9mm stubbie rifle, and use the 30 rounder for that weapon in his, sometimes rarely "her" sidearm in a pinch.

3. Ammo clips and magazines are about the easiest thing on earth to make. Piece of auto sheet steel, two plates, a spring. Or use high impact plastic polycarbonate, glue, and a spring.

4. I think though that government should give up "interchangibility" and manufacturers should give up sales of inordinately high capacity magazines that can be mated to a pistol.

5. People tend to overlook people can train to eject a spent clip and reload a fresh one - be it 6, 15, 30 rounds in a second.

chickelit said...

Crack,

Roesch-Voltaire would probably rather just change his disguise than admit something that damaging.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PaulV said...

Milko,
Your close mindness explains your lack of intelligence. Being open to new ideas would improve your intelligence, So you think the political rhetoric of the left was responsible for setting off the Bush bashing 911 Truther? The killing of those two in TN involved a shot gun, not a hand gun.
If you read the fact based article you would see that Europe has as many multible dead shooting as US despite tough gun laws.
Mikio, You stood at home plate and did not swing at strikes down the middle of plate. You're out

Roger J. said...

C4--having been a few firefights, I agree with your comments re mag capacity--I want to get as many rounds off as I can.

on a trip down memory lane, I loved the M1 rifle--had an 8 round clip and the clip would make a distinctive whirring sound when it ejected--the bolt locked back. simply put a new clip in in less than a second. Newer rifles didnt do that as well, but again, I am an old fart who doesnt necessarily adapt to new ways.

dbp said...

Mikio:

the much narrower and more distinct issue of political gun rhetoric. They won’t deal with this actual issue because only pussies are afraid of guns and conservatives would rather have you man-up than remain pathetic sitzpinklers.

PaulV said...

J, your lack of knowledge repeats itself. Extended mags were never banned, just the import and manufacture of new one. They were available. Likely it was taking Loughter longer to load the large capacity mag than it would a smaller one, but you have no imagination or facts

Cedarford said...

Pete said...
Sure, Obama may have said all those things but he was merely being pragmatic. Thus, Althouse's vote is still justified and there's no reason at all for her to admit she erred.
======================
On what basis did anyone "err" based on the facts available to voters at the time? Sometimes elections are choices between dismal and even more dismal. That is why independent that thought Bush was a bad President with bad judgment still voted for him over the awful John Kerry.
And even more Bush screwups 2004-2006 did not have many saying "Oh, beloved John Forbes Kerry! So sorry, I erred in my vote!"

Many people disappointed in Obama still defend their vote for him contemplating what John McCain would have done in office, instead. McCain would have been equally clueless on the economy, captured by the Neocons into lauching a 3rd simultaneous war with Iran, oil at 200 a barrel, giving Dems 90% of what they wanted, closing GITMO as a 'matter of personal POW honor", trotting out Amnesty again.

Voting is like many decisions. You make them on the best available info at the time.

McCain was guaranteed to be a dismal President deeply damaging the Republican Party and the country. Obama was a roll of the dice against the certainty McCain would have been bad. 50% chance he would be worse than McCain, 50% chance he would be better.

Obama screwed up by rewarding the activists just like Bush did when he took office. Obama gave Pelosi almost everything she wanted but Amnesty. Bush gave the Republican crooks 5 1/2 years of free rein before he vetoed a single bill they pushed.

J said...

No, PaulTard, yr the one inventing things. The sale of the extended mags was covered under the AWB, ie banned.

Now, that doesn't mean ..any slack-jawed yokel couldn't get one, or fully auto AK/Ari whatever--at the bait shop, or masonic hall, baptick church, favorite Klan bunker--with the bud/JD posters, Noog, NRA, and old Hustler pin ups. Yr people PaulTard.

Michael said...

J: Amigo!! Gat-meister hipster man. You are the gat man so you should know that there was no reason for a short magazine since the congresswoman was shot with the first bullet. But, hey nightmare man, you the gat man so I guess you know all about it. Buy that gat over the counter or from another bad ass hombre?

Roger J. said...

J: apparently English is not your first language?

Roger J. said...

Oh, since little stevie is my congress critter, the good folks might like to know that Cohen has applied for a CC license in TN--the question for his rabbi is can he use it from sundown friday to sundown sat. The thought of cohen packing heat is a bit scary I gotta tell you.

Cedarford said...

Roger J. said...
C4--having been a few firefights, I agree with your comments re mag capacity--I want to get as many rounds off as I can.

on a trip down memory lane, I loved the M1 rifle--had an 8 round clip and the clip would make a distinctive whirring sound when it ejected--the bolt locked back. simply put a new clip in in less than a second. Newer rifles didnt do that as well, but again, I am an old fart who doesnt necessarily adapt to new ways.

===============
Roger, I join you in your ode to the M-1. An absolutely incredibly well-made, highly lethal (on deer as well as people) weapon. Also sold as surplus to a law-abiding citizenry as the M-14 and M-16 replaced it without the gun nuts and gun banners raving about it.
I inherited the one my Dad got surplus after he died in an accident. Family heirloom it will stay.
I was in 20 years into the M-16. But we STILL had M-14s for certain roles and I finagled my way into shooting one on a range over a two-day "course". I honestly like the M-14 over any weapon if the job is long range.
Though never in infantry and most time not issued weapons save in the Gulf War and one stateside base job I had....I do note that Marines sent to Afghanistan found themselved outranged by Afghans. Their demand - get us some M-14s, fast! And any of those 50 cals!

J said...

Mikhey, as with most of the A-house cronies, logic's not your strong suit. A few other lives might have been saved w/o the expanded mag. Then, had a reasonable gun control policy been in effect, Loughner would not have been able to buy the gat in the first place. But NRA-bots are not generally concerned with Reasonable policies. They're concerned about Redneck. For that matter, the 2nd Amendment was merely like allowing one flintlock for a farmer (if that). Not about handing out AK-47s to slack-jawed yokels

(for that matter, Mikey stein, we got yr number, puerca).

Michael said...

J: Amigo!! Still the antisemitism! Jews got the good gigs out there, do they? Well, hipster hate dude you are a fat gat carrying, bad writing, fixie riding fantasist and we have your number. What caliber that gat Mr. nightmare bad guy?

Roger J. said...

gotta be kind to J--he's our resident Hegel scholar, although his command of spanish is right down there with mojado quality

Michael said...

Roger J: He knows about as much about Hegel as he knows about gats. The Spanish is a bit underclass.

Roger J. said...

which is why I suggested it was mojado quality--mestizo basura

Roger J. said...

hard for J to exress his thoughts when he is illiterate in two languages--Oh well J--you have a nice nite son--and dont let the bed bugs bite

J said...

Not really anti-semitic Mikey, though you sound anti-hispanic, sort of like your role model Bloomyberg.

Hicks don't need semi-autos. For that matter, nor do gangs or mafias of whatever type, Caponay or Meyer Lansky.

IM not yr anything Roger J, except enemy, pendejo.

J said...

I know something about Hegelian process, Mikey-dreck. Like the sections.."On Chandala" where Herr Hegel discussed Mikeys of his era...and their Brit/US WASP scum allies as well (aka, Rogers).

CHAN-DALA. Has a nice ring to it, eh

Michael said...

J: Amigo. Perhaps you aren't antisemitic but there are certain tells that cannot be ignored. And you display them over and over. As to being "anti Hispanic" that is absurd. I am absolutely anti pretend badass bad Spanish slingibg antisemites but other than that I love Latins and Latin America to include Mexico and Central America. None of the many people I know in that region would find you attractive.
Oh, and by the way, I am not Jewish. You make the classic mistake of conflating bankers and Jews but that can be forgiven as you are a moron.

roesch-voltaire said...

Crack here is a quote from Jake Tapper, and because I think you are a reasonable man, I expected the commons from the neurosurgeon, as opposed to some pundit, might carry weight in this matter.
But doctors today provided a simple explanation: Wednesday was the first time Giffords opened her eyes on her own, which Giffords’ neurosurgeon, Dr. Michael Lemole Thursday called “a major milestone.”

“When we examine patients, particularly in this state we have to ‘wake them up,’ give them some stimulus, and with that stimulus they might crack their eyes,” Lemole said today. “That’s very different from speaking to someone and having them open their eyes, or having them open their eyes spontaneously in response to familiarity.”

…The president’s remarks were meant, the White House says, to convey that she had opened her eyes on her own for the first time.

And for those without TV who want to learn about out success in Iraq, I suggest The Longest War by Peter L. Bergen.

Big Mike said...

@Cedarford, I was issued an M14 for BCT, and I got pretty good with it. In those days unless you were in AIT on your way to Viet Nam, you'd only have a one day familiarization course with the M16 on the range. I hated it. Mine jammed solid on only the third round, and it was pretty inaccurate after the M14. I made up my mind I'd ask for an M79 if I got orders for the SEA, and choose the Colt 1911 as my sidearm.

I didn't care for the M1, but I only handled it as a youngster, and it seemed super big and very heavy.

jr565 said...

roesch-voltaire wrote:

…The president’s remarks were meant, the White House says, to convey that she had opened her eyes on her own for the first time.

Actually in Obama's defence, i THINK I heard him say that he was told after he left that she opened her eyes, so not sure if he was in the room when it happened. THen it's less because Obama is so miraculous as opposed to he got called about good news.
But I say I THINK because I heard him say it in a speech but I don't have the speech in front of me, and may have misheard it.

pst314 said...

"...right after we went to visit, a few minutes after we left her room...Gabby opened her eyes for the first time."
--Obama

"For it is said in old lore: the hands of the king are the hands of the healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known."
--The Lord of the Rings

roesch-voltaire said...

Thanks for the follow-up posts which just reinforce my claim the much of this partisanship/ideological divide is more in the eyes of the beholder than what occurs in reality.

former law student said...

Why is a 57 year old man a Professor Emeritus? I note that Victor Hanson was/is another sucker at the public teat, having taught Classics at Cal State Fresno.

former law student said...

Boeing announced 1,000 lyaoffs in California yesterday. That China State Dinner bought us a lot of good jobs


I can't believe the Drill Sgt. would want Boeing to sell military aircraft (C-17s) to the Chicoms. What is the world coming to?

Apparently annual production has been cut from 14 planes a year to 10, so roughly 250 workers per airplane per year.

former law student said...

what a nut...worrying about the social and economic effects of importing millions of impoverished Third Worlders into this country.

Mexicans work hard, and they work cheap. If there were no demand in California -- particularly in Hanson's Central Valley -- there would be no supply. Farmers are isolated from the consequences of their acts because they contract with "labor contractors" who exploit the illegals directly.

former law student said...

Jared Loughner. Was. Not. Interested. In. Politics.

Sure. The belief that only gold and silver are "real" money is apolitical. Sean Hannity buys gold, Keith Olbermann buys... well bad example