August 25, 2010

"The False and 'Seedy' Claim That Obama Is Muslim."

Get it? "Seedy"? The Nation quotes Franklin Graham:
“I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim. His father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother. He was born a Muslim. His father gave him an Islamic name. Now it's obvious that the president has renounced the Prophet Muhammad and he has renounced Islam and he has accepted Jesus Christ. That's what he says he has done. I cannot say that he hasn't. So I just have to believe that the president is what he has said.”
When religionists talk about semen...
Personally, I’m stuck on the word seed. Graham meant it in the Biblical (or Koranical) sense, but when I hear about a “seed passing through” in the context of an American president, I can’t help but see Monica Lewinsky and her “semen-stained blue dress.”

Regardless of what the Muslim world may or may not believe, this whole seed fixation is profoundly un-American. It says that genealogy is destiny, that a man is Muslim regardless of what he espouses or believes. It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South. That rule held that if a person had any African or Indian ancestry whatsoever, he or she was classified as “colored” and subject to anti-miscegenation laws, voter disenfranchisement, and segregation at large. At least eighteen states adopted some form of the rule; Virginia’s 1924 law, for instance, was called the Racial Integrity Act.
Is the author of this piece — Leslie Savan —paying enough attention the the way she is expressing contempt for Muslim beliefs? I didn't know you could do that in The Nation. I mean, I agree that religion originates within the mind of a human being (and not in some guy's testicles!). I agree with James Madison:
... "... religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction..." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man...
This is one of several arguments for freedom of religion and the separation of church and state that were influential in the development of rights in America.  It isn't the way everyone in the world thinks about religion, but it is presented by Madison as "a fundamental and undeniable truth." Of course, under that truth, you are free to believe that religion arrived via semen. And we're also free to laugh at such a ridiculous belief.

***

Another point. Graham didn't "claim that Obama is a Muslim." So ironically, it's false to say that he did. If you want to write an article lambasting people for making false claims, be careful that you don't make any false claims. (Savan has a grievance against whoever wrote that headline.)

And I'm wondering who did say Obama's a Muslim? But no one has to say it for people to come to think it. So it's fair to say that statements like Graham's have a causal relation to what people will answer when a pollster asks them "What is Obama's religion?"

So... is anyone doing anything bad? I think so, but you talk now. I'll come back to this discussion later.

173 comments:

Beth said...

Why can't I get "Every Sperm is Sacred" out of my head?

DADvocate said...

Whether or not Obama is Muslim is the least of my worries. That he is an incompetent bozo if a great worry. As I learned yesterday, his economic stimulus programs cost more than the entire Iraq war and we're still in the crapper.

cookasia said...

How does one refute that Obama is a Muslim if he says so himself? From another blog: "Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said he had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, in which President Obama told him that he was still a Muslim, the son of a Muslim father, the stepson of Muslim stepfather, that his half brothers in Kenya are Muslims, and that he was sympathetic towards the Muslim agenda.

Finally, during the week of 14-18th of January 2010, just on the eve of my winter tour to the US, Rachel picked up a Nile TV broadcast in which Egyptian Foreign Minister Abul Gheit said on the "Round Table Show" that he had had a one on one meeting with Obama who swore to him that he was a Moslem, the son of a Moslem father and step-son of Moslem step-father, that his half-brothers in Kenya were Moslems, and that he was loyal to the Moslem agenda. He asked that the Moslem world show patience. Obama promised that once he overcame some domestic American problems (Healthcare), that he would show the Moslem world what he would do with Israel."
Hmmm, so whose seed is he anyway?

Scott M said...

Ugh. Non-story. Irrelevant to boot. If you're voting based on this, chances are you're not reading this blog...or no how to turn on a computer...but certainly a television.

The bell curves both ways in everything having to do with human behavior. Most people don't buy into this at all and, even if agnostic on it, don't think it matters.

Congress isn't going to get rid of him for not clearly stating his religion, so what's the big whup?

On the other hand, is there anything in the Qur'an about only running for one term?

Beth said...

cookasia,

Do you not understand that someone saying Obama said something is not Obama saying that thing?

Geoff Matthews said...

Devout muslims don't drink beer or eat pork. The Beer Summit was one hint, and I'm sure he's had some product from a pig.

But really, I don't care.

AllenS said...

And I'm wondering who did say Obama's a Muslim?

Sep 8, 2008 ... "You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith," Obama said.

HDHouse said...

Dear Ann,

The lesson to be learned here is don't quote Franklin Graham.

After 9/11, there were a lot of things being said about how the God of Islam and the God of the Christian faith were one and the same, but that's simply not true ... The God that I worship does not require me to kill other people. The God that I worship tells me I am to love my enemy, to give him food when he's hungry and water when he's thirsty.

FRANKLIN GRAHAM, Newsweek, Aug. 14, 2006

HDHouse said...

Beth said...
Why can't I get "Every Sperm is Sacred" out of my head?"

ahhhh Beth....perhaps rethinking the wording here might be appropriate.

David said...

On a minor point, Graham is clearly not intending to talk about semen, unless he believes that Jewish mothers contribute semen to their children. He's just pointing out that Islam uses patrilineal descent to define who is Muslim and Judaism uses matrilineal descent to define who is Jewish. Christianity uses neither, since Jesus must be accepted through the conscious and voluntary choice of the individual (but don't get me started on infant baptism).

So, the Muslim will believe that Obama is Muslim. Arguably, respect for religion and the principles behind the First Amendment prevent non-Muslim Americans from arguing the point, though we don't have to accept it ourselves. We certainly can't say that we're right and Islam is wrong without denigrating Islam. For example, a US court would be forbidden by the First Amendment from declaring President Obama Muslim or non-Muslim, since to do so would require deciding a point of contested theology.

But I'm more interested in Prof. Althouse's opinion whether Obama is Muslim, which which she's been somewhat coy. If he was born Muslim and if, as she believes, he is lying about being Christian for political reasons, than is he Muslim still? Or is she willing to impose the American/Christian view that religion is a matter of conscience and thus, while he might not be Christian in his heart, neither is he Muslim?

traditionalguy said...

A Muslim President can do much to rig American foreign policy against the survival of a sovereign Jewish State, especially if the Jewish State trusts him. But no one trusts Obama anymore about anything. The next farce is a Peace Settlement meeting called for Israel's government with Abbas as leader of the Palestinian Authority. Obama has laid down the rules that the Jews must stop all development in Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem so as not to "ruin the peace conference". That is a condition that requires ceding to Obama control over Jerusalem, or the Jewish State will be abandoned. What a good Muslim Obama has turned out to be. His Muslim family is proud of him now.

garage mahal said...

"Look at this newborn baby". He's Jewish. No he's a Catholic. No, he's a Muslim!" Well one thing we can ALL agree on is that he is a sinner!

Hard to believe in 2010 people still believe any of this nonsense. Any organized religion that is.

Mitch H. said...

Beth: I read that as "Every Spam is Sacred" and sniggered.

I don't know, I kind of think Obama's only Muslim by a trivial definition which could only be useful to pedantic, irate Egyptian and Malaysian bureaucrats trying to retain notational Muslims on their census rolls. Elsewise, he's either a ceremonial Christian or a hypocritical agnostic, depending on how credulous you choose to be.

Cedarford said...

AllenS - That happens all the time. An allegation is out there, and people respond with wording that someone heavy into semantics will pounce on.
"No, officer, my wife has no knowledge of my murdering 3 people! You can ask her my whereabouts."
"Ah, but you just admitted it when you said "my murdering 3 people"
"Look officer, while the force can't groom out stupidity, they can train stupid people not to make stupid connections to fuel conjecture..Think about that if you want to make detective."
----
AllenS said...
And I'm wondering who did say Obama's a Muslim?

Sep 8, 2008 ... "You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith," Obama said.

AllenS said...

Cedarford, please try and use just regular English. I don't know where you're coming from.

WV: reads

I don't know how to reads what you just said.

AllenS said...

Also, you used quotes. Quotes from where?

GMay said...

This comes across as a very clever, yet doomed-to-fail distraction ginned up by someone. I haven't been following this very closely at all since it seems almost irrelevant, so anyone know who's been churning this story?

traditionalguy said...

In religion the seed means an implanted word of God that is believed by the faithful. That makes all the difference. It connects men with God. It creates faithfulness among a similar believers group. By analogy the Marine Corps is a seed that makes one always a Marine and demands Semper Fidelis of them. If a religion is based upon a covenant keeping God's word, then it will give peace. But if it is based upon an irrational god's word who must be propitiated with irrational demands for death and destruction, then there will be no peace.

former law student said...

How does one refute that Obama is a Muslim if he says so himself? From another blog

Ah, there's no proof greater than coming "from another blog." I've read on blogs that Obama likes to offer oral sex and drugs to obese male limo drivers. I've read on blogs that the Holocaust never happened. If it's on the Internet, you know it's true?

former law student said...

“I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim. His father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother.

So Mullah Graham is an expert in halacha as well as Sharia law.

traditionalguy said...

Other perceptions are that Obama is half white and half black, and half Christian and half a Muslim, and half a brilliant speaker, and half a confused reader off tele-prompters. No wonder he smokes.

Der Hahn said...

It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South. That rule held that if a person had any African or Indian ancestry whatsoever, he or she was classified as “colored” and subject to anti-miscegenation laws, voter disenfranchisement, and segregation at large. At least eighteen states adopted some form of the rule; Virginia’s 1924 law, for instance, was called the Racial Integrity Act.

In addition to being Muslim, Obama's father is black. His mother is (nominally) Christian and white.

So people refer to Obama as the first (real) black president but not the first Muslim president based on what rule?

Matthias said...

Is it out of the question to assume that Graham was talking about the cultural-religious assumptions of Islam vs. those of Americans (and Christians).

I don't know enough about Islamic theology to make a statement one way or another, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that Graham is making a factual statement about the concept of religious heritage in an Islamic theological framework (that religion is passed down from father to child).

He then states that, by his own account, President Obama has *personally* renounced Islamic teachings and *personally* accepted Christianity and that this *personal* decision is the one that matters, not the issue of religious heritage.

If I have read the quote correctly, Savan and Graham actually agree that what matters is the *personal* religious decision and Savan is actually angry at Graham for stating a true fact about Islamic cultural-religious assumptions.

She then takes a single word ("seed") and runs with it, effectively saying that when Graham makes a factual statement about non-American religious frameworks that he disagrees with, she can't help but think of something perverted. Therefore, Graham is perverted. Furthermore, Savan skips several logical steps and tries to convince the reader that Graham is endorsing something (genealogical deterministic religion) when he clearly is not.

It seems, overall, like a case of "I find genealogical religion disgusting and I find Franklin Graham disgusting, therefore if Graham ever says anything touching on the subject of genealogical religion, that proves that he agrees with it."

I'd be disgusted by the smear if the reasoning used to get there didn't seem so strained. It's like watching a crazy uncle explain his theories of who controls the world. You want to be disgusted, but his reasoning is so peculiar that you can't help but marvel at it.

Scott M said...

Other perceptions are that Obama is half white and half black, and half Christian and half a Muslim, and half a brilliant speaker, and half a confused reader off tele-prompters. No wonder he smokes.

Speaking of the black president thing, I listened to MIP on Sirrius LEFT yesterday on my way home. There was a guest host (thank God) who, while fairly liberal was fair. He was very critical of President Obama's performance so far and took call after call from black men (no women, oddly enough) that echoed what he was saying.

Best exchange:
Caller: I always thought Obama was our last chance and here he's not doing shi...
Host: (interrupting) No. He's not your last chance. I'm your last chance and you're mine. Only the electorate can help themselves. (I know...shocking)

Second best exchange:
Caller: I mean, he's supposed to be the first black president and he's not done a damned thing for our people.
Host: Wrong. His job is not to be the first black president. He's supposed to be the president of all of us. The problem is that he only seems to be taking care of those that can keep him in office, the rich democrats and the unions.

Quite shocking all in all.

Now back to the irrelevant discussion about Obama's religion.

Lem said...

There are political advantages in adding/furthering the confusion about Obama's faith.

The right did not give him that Islamic name. His Islamic father did.. for instance.

Chalk it up to Alinsky.

k*thy said...

So people refer to Obama as the first (real) black president but not the first Muslim president based on what rule?

Based on the rule that they "be left to the conviction and conscience of every man."

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hard to believe in 2010 people still believe any of this nonsense.

Even harder to believe is that in 2010 that anyone still thinks Obama knows what he's doing.

William said...

George DeValero (who later became Eamon de Valera) was born in NYC to a Cuban father and an Irish mother. Despite, or perhaps because of his mixed ancestry, deValera became a militant Irish nationalist....On the other side of the equation, there is Hitler. Yesterday there was an article that claimed Hitler had DNA consistent with Jewish lineage. It was rumored that Hitler's mother was the product of a union between the maid, Maria Schickelgruber, and her Jewish employer. No one would claim that such descent makes Hitler Jewish, but it's fair to speculate that such descent may have contributed to his anti-Semitism......I do not think that Obama is Muslim, but this much can be stated with absolute truth: His feelings about Islam, good or bad, are not the same as those of most Americans. His father and his father's religion are the dark matter of Obama's soul. They have a gravitational force that he cannot comprehend and pull him places he does not wish to go.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I still wonder about the 'My Muslim faith' flub with Stephenopholous.

Seriously, who makes that kind of gaffe about themselves?

Scott M said...

Seriously, who makes that kind of gaffe about themselves?

The same person that let the cat out of the bag about wanting a civilian force as powerful as the military.

I'm betting his handlers had a soap party with him after that one.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I mean, he's supposed to be the first black president and he's not done a damned thing for our people.

Not to go O/T here but I'd like to hear exactly what he should be doing for that specific group of people.

If that one woman interviewed after the election was any indication I would tend to think it wasn't so they wouldn't have to worry about paying their mortgage or filling up their cars anymore.

traditionalguy said...

Query: In our rational scientific world view we are all chemicals. The recent DNA discovery and mapped genomes have alerted thinkers to a "genetic" pattern arranging the material chemicals. But there are well known cases of family lines also containing repeated mental illnesses and tragedies down the generational tree, such as the Kennedy family. Can a spiritual inheritance also be possibility among men?

EDH said...

Wicket just emailed me to say only one religion was worth 'nutting on.'

Cedarford said...

David - Graham is clearly not intending to talk about semen, unless he believes that Jewish mothers contribute semen to their children. He's just pointing out that Islam uses patrilineal descent to define who is Muslim and Judaism uses matrilineal descent to define who is Jewish. Christianity uses neither, since Jesus must be accepted through the conscious and voluntary choice of the individual

A good point. Christianity departed from the Muslim and Jewish tribally based bloodlines extended into religion theory, but even Christ used the "seed" concept. He and his new testament was a mustard seed, he said. Strong, would grow anywhere it took root.

The Jews and Muslims took it far deeper, restricting certain religious affairs to certain bloodlines. And in the Caliphate, legitimacy and religious authority of the Caliph in part rested on how close in ancestry he was to the Prophet or the Prophet's early followers.

This has bearing in Obama's case. Rather than see him as a natural apostate, born Muslim who left of his own violition...thus whose killing for apostasy would be a holy deed - Obama gets off the hook. Muslims see him as a man who should have naturally been a Muslim but for a very bad parent. His not being Muslim is a blameless thing for Obama, in Muslim eyes. Blame rests on a feckless African Muslim father who abandoned his son to the the infidels then died in drunken disgrace.

So Muslims look for signs that Obama is weighing his faith, and may one day return to the fold. He focused his book not on his Mothers line of descent, but his Fathers. He apologized for the Crusades. He visits his Muslim relatives frequently, sponsors their visits into the USA, and even has his people quietly work to get a Muslim Aunt who defied deportation into lifetime residency and benefits in the USA. He had good relations with Muslims in Chicago, especially the deviant NOI sect. He has nothing but kind words for Muslims as he lambastes Brits and "the bitter people of Middle America".
They know that Obama is barely a Christian now, and like many wayward Muslim men..is lost in a shallow world of narcissism, self-absorbtion, and venal material things.
Which faith will he turn to when he grows up?

Lem said...

PBS Frontline asked what are your thoughts on the presidents religious faith and the impact on his life and political leadership?

Oh yea the question was about Bush's faith.

The title of the piece was - The Jesus Factor.

shoutingthomas said...

Regardless of what the Muslim world may or may not believe, this whole seed fixation is profoundly un-American. It says that genealogy is destiny, that a man is Muslim regardless of what he espouses or believes. It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South. That rule held that if a person had any African or Indian ancestry whatsoever, he or she was classified as “colored” and subject to anti-miscegenation laws, voter disenfranchisement, and segregation at large. At least eighteen states adopted some form of the rule; Virginia’s 1924 law, for instance, was called the Racial Integrity Act.

That old Stalinist rag, The Nation, is suddenly concerned with what's "un-American?"

Hilarious!

You can count on any article produced by this old Stalinist rag, of course, to contain a mention to racism in the old South.

It's all templated.

Why would anybody take The Nation seriously? It's a laughing stock.

ricpic said...

It's a red herring that those who suspect Obama is a muslim do so on the basis of his lineage, we suspect so on the basis of his obsequiousness to sheiks, imams and muftis.

former law student said...

From what I've been able to find on becoming Muslim by birth, the Prophet declared that we are all born Muslim. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Chapter 6). Our parents raise us as Christians or Jews.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/033.smt.html

Lem said...

I wonder why they haven't done one on Obama - The Muslim Factor?

alsafetymail said...

I'm curious, are there instances where Obama refers to his Christian faith as being a Christian faith other than the Stephanopolous interview?

I hear him talk about "his faith" but I don't recall (other than the S. interview) him specifying that his faith is in fact a Christian one.

Has it been drown out by media noise, or is it out there?

SH said...

"Another point. Graham didn't "claim that Obama is a Muslim." So ironically, it's false to say that he did. If you want to write an article lambasting people for making false claims, be careful that you don't make any false claims. (Savan has a grievance against whoever wrote that headline.)"

The whole nation quote is gibberish that gets around to trying to label a legit discussion racist. The far left has gone into full newspeak / 30's stalinist mode (some terms provoke automatic associations / reactions... brother).

traditionalguy said...

Last thought before lunch: The code in the DNA is in effect a "word" that coordinates the billions of complex chemical events inside of us over a human's life span. Religions say seeds are codes of DNA and therefore words of command. Ergo, God is a super computer that encoded everything eternally.

Lem said...

Obama did go to a Chicago church where Jeremiah Wright was his pastor.. now the problem is that Obama's people said Obama did not listened to his pastor.. for 20 years.

So maybe that means that in his hart of harts Obama never left his Muslim roots.

I don't know any other way of interpreting this.. I can identify with the confusion over 30% of Americans have about the president.

LB-Philadelphia PA said...

My age or interests must be showing. When someone talks about seed passing through I immediately think of sparrows and mulberries.

AJ Lynch said...

Obama a Muslim? "No he isn't" cries the MSM again and again and louder and louder.

[I am beginning to suspect the MSM thinks there is something wrong with being a Muslim]

wv = ammoduck

JBlog said...

"So, the Muslim will believe that Obama is Muslim."

Actually, a Muslim would likely believe President Obama is an apostate, as he has renounced Islam and embraced Christianity.

Lem said...

..as he has renounced Islam and embraced Christianity.

Thats news to me.. when did he do that?

SteveR said...

If we're supposed to be so tolerant of the Muslim faith, he's either a Muslim by their rules or he is an apostate. Pick one.

Graham said nothing incorrect as far as I can tell and the President's own messages have been less than clear (so "praying everyday" makes you a Christian? Really?). Beyond the fact that people would say they believe he's a Muslim to jack with the pollster for asking a silly question, is it surprising there are misconceptions?

Revenant said...

It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South.

Is this the same one-drop rule that causes The Nation to repeatedly refer to Obama as African-American even though he is half white?

Just curious.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Devout muslims don't drink beer or eat pork. The Beer Summit was one hint, and I'm sure he's had some product from a pig.

The 9/11 hijackers engaged in all sorts of behavior that is forbidden for muslims. They believed that what they were doing to the twin towers would cancel all that out.

I suspect Obama feels the same way about what he is doing to our economy.

*ducks*

garage mahal said...

So if Muslims think he is a Muslim, he is a Muslim? I thought we weren't supposed to be tolerant of their faith?

Lem said...

Rumor has it Obama puts the prayer rug right over the seal in the oval ;)

Milwaukee said...

One cannot be "half Christian, half Muslim". They are exclusive positions. Christianity believes in the Triune God, and that Jesus rose from the dead. Islam believes there is "No God but God" and disregards the Trinity and the Resurrection.

Christians are also called to Never deny Christ, ever, even at the cost of life. Muslims are encouraged to deny their faith to deceive nonbelievers, especially when doing so allows them to further their Islamic interests. The way to judge is by their fruit: is the behavior of the person in question consistent with Christian teachings or Islamic? We do need to care, because if Obama is Muslim, he could be very dangerous to the survival of our country. If President Obama is a Muslim Manchurian President, then impeachment is not an option. The Democrats, by excusing Clinton, removed impeachment as an option for removing an unsatisfactory president. President Obama seems hell bent on destroying our country. Witness the willingness to lie to a Court to ban offshore drilling in the Gulf, knowing the economic consequences would be huge.

A previous poster stated that a "devout Muslim wouldn't drink beer". That is true, but we aren't talking "devout" here. Besides, in the end, President Obama is probably going to find that his inclination to tell each audience what it wants to hear is going to result in truly devout Muslims despising him. After he delivers our downfall, he would be cast aside for not being devout.

shoutingthomas said...

So if Muslims think he is a Muslim, he is a Muslim? I thought we weren't supposed to be tolerant of their faith?

Are you religious, garage?

I kind of imagine that you're contemptuous of Christians, precisely because of "their faith."

Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, I assume you don't have a dog in this fight.

You're one of those incredibly high-minded, intellectuals who understand nuance, unlike the redneck stupid Christians, right?

At least that's what I thought.

Among the high-minded nuanced intellectuals, exotic foreign faiths are often deserving of respect, while redneck Christianity, of course, is only for idiots.

Why do I get the idea you're playing all sides of this against the middle?

former law student said...

The Prophet forbade wine, as I recall, not beer or hard liquor. (Our word alcohol comes from Arabic of course, so if they meant to prohibit all forms of alcohol they could have specified, right?)

miller said...

Oh good L**d.

We're still talking about this?

I could not care less about this issue.

It's like someone keeps deliberately bringing up this stuff over and over just to keep the pot boiling.

This is so 2008.

The issue we should be thinking about is do we want Obama and Nancy and Harry to keep the car keys, or do we want an adult to be in charge while Obama takes Drivers Ed classes?

This obsession over his birth certificate or his faith is nearly making me physically ill.

Trooper York said...

Beth, you have Sperm in your head?

How the hell did that happen?

Fen said...

Leslie: It says that genealogy is destiny, that a man is Muslim regardless of what he espouses or believes. It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South.

No Libtard, its closer to how Jewish ancestry is traced thru the mother. Graham actually made that parallel for CONTEXT in the quote you so conviently ignored.

But you need to segeuy thru the Old South so you can make this about race instead of religion.

Because your audience at The Nation is dumb enough to swallow it.

mRed said...

As for Rev. Wright, it was reported in the New Republic that Wright is a former Muslim. Wolves, sheep, clothing?

WV: noeitt

Lilac Sunday said...

Judaism is a matrilineal covenant. Need we expand the agricultural metaphor to include eggs?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Why do I get the idea you're playing all sides of this against the middle?

Where could you POSSIBLY get such a crazy harebrained idea as that?

/sarc off

Mr. McLain said...

If I were his press secretary I would have my entire staff do nothing all day but post articles about the "mystery" of Obama's faith, his secret Muslim identity, and other such nonsense. I would call my buds at the Nation and have them write articles about it.
...In short, anything to ignore the question: "When exactly will we start calling the debt a crisis?"

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

From what I've been able to find on becoming Muslim by birth, the Prophet declared that we are all born Muslim. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Chapter 6). Our parents raise us as Christians or Jews.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/


It's nice to have heard from the mullahs at USC what constitutes a Muslim.

Maybe you'd like to hear from a real one, but every time I post one you just ignore them. Call this one up and tell him he's doing it wrong, according to USC.

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=f0238057479d53f6f3bef954663f8b4a

We would first like to state that to accept Islam there is no official initiation or ceremony one has to go through. One simply has to utter the words of shahada (testimony) and believe in them from his heart. The words of shahada are:


Ash-Hadu An La Illahi Ilillah Wa Ash-Hadu Ana Muhammadan Abduhu Wa Rasulluhu (Transliteration)

I bear testimony that there is no God but Allah and I bear testimony that Muhammad is his slave and messenger. (Translation)

It should also be known that there are five pillars of Islam.


Ibn ‘Umar (Radiyallahu 'Anhu) narrates that the Prophet of Allah (Sallalahu 'Alayhi Wasallam) said, “The foundation of Islam is upon five pillars; bearing testimony that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, establishment of Prayers (Salat), Giving alms (Zakat), Pilgrimage (Hajj), Fasting in the month of Ramadan.) (Translation)

It is also incumbent upon a Muslim to believe in all the necessary doctrines of Islam such as:

Qur’an is the book of Allah
The finality of Prophethood upon Muhammad (Sallalahu 'Alayhi Wasallam)
Life after death
Existence of Angels
Day of Judgment
Existence of Heaven and Hell
Unlawfulness of wine and pork
Rad al-Muhtar 4/221) Saeed

We advice you to contact an Islamic Scholar (Alim) close to you locality or in the surrounding areas and ask him to teach you about the fundamentals of Islam. It is important to learn Islam from authentic scholars. For the time being, you may learn the method of prayers from books that are easily available for purchase such as ‘Talim al-Haq’. It can be purchased from the following website:

http://www.madania.org/english/index.php

You may also visit our website for other information on Islam at http://www.al-inaam.com/.

May Allah Ta’ala make it easy for you and assist you in having the right understanding of Islam, Ameen.



And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Ml. Ehzaz Ajmeri,
Student Darul Iftaa

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah

Cedarford said...

One would have to be obtuse not to understand that a Western nation that opens its doors to mass migration from the Islamic world is taking a grave risk with its unity and identity.

Speaking of obtuse....

FLS - former law student said...
From what I've been able to find on becoming Muslim by birth, the Prophet declared that we are all born Muslim. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Chapter 6). Our parents raise us as Christians or Jews.


The Prophet was talking about all only of his own blood tribe. He was not talking about the pagans, Christians, or the wicked Jews - all who he said had to be offered a choice of cenversion, enslavement, or death upon conquest and submission.

But the Prophet said Allah regards each child born as his own, and it is the duty of the parents or of The Faithful to take that child and rear him or her as an obediant Muslim.

RAM said...

Beth wrote, "Do you not understand that someone saying Obama said something is not Obama saying that thing?"

What Obama says about anything is bound to be false. What somebody else says might be true.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Not to go O/T here but I'd like to hear exactly what he should be doing for that specific group of people.


Probably just what he is doing now.

They just want it to be less subtle and more in your face. Show 'da man' who is in charge now.

Spread the wealth.

Income redistribution from those who work to those who won't or don't.

Free money!!! And tax rebates for those who don't pay taxes.

Free health care!!!

Free food!!!

Quotas and special treatment for minorities in government contracts......and now in the new lending regulations.

Special deals on home loans. Business loans. Quotas in schools.

Special special special.

They want MONEY MONEY MONEY. Reparations in the form of MONEY MONEY MONEY from people who had less than nothing to do with slavery over a hundred years ago. It doesn't matter.

As to Obama being Muslim. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe not any religion.

The issue is the disingenuousness of pretending to be Christian when you may not be or may be Agnostic or even Atheist. Pretending to be something you aren't for your own personal gain. Lying about who you are.

That is the issue for me.

Pogo said...

This may have been an appropriate discussion before the election, much like had occurred prior to the Kennedy election about his Catholicism.

But that was 1960. Now the MSM, acting as an arm for the Democratic Party, refused to engage the issue. The Journolisters saw to that.

Still, the argument lives, its nuances discussed like baseball fans discuss an ump's call at home plate, or like Rashomon.

Though this fiddling is fun to watch, Rome burns.

I had a talk with my daughter yesterday, and asked her to start getting prepared for ten years of hard times. If I'm wrong, no problem. But I don't think i'm wrong.

El Presidente said...

Does it matter that allies of the United States consider the President of the United States an Apostate?

I'll bet it does in ways that The Nation cannot fathom.

orbicularioculi said...

Personally, I think that Obama could be a Klingon. We'd have to have Spock do a scan to know for certain.

Jeremiah Wright, that epitomy of Christian Faith and Godliness is a converted Muslim also. So what is really going on here?

Since Muslims are allowed to use deception and lies (taqiyya) in promulgating or protecting the Truth of Islamic Beliefs from infidels (kafirs) we will never know what any of these "curious" characters are.

I suppose you can know them by their actions. Obama does seem to favor Muslims and bend over backwards to uphold Islam.

We shall see what we shall see. Could anyone really trust a Muslim who believes in the Koran that tells Muslims "...you can never be a friend to a kafir..." and allows Muslims to LIE to their non-Muslim citizens. I don't think so.

prairie wind said...

The issue we should be thinking about is do we want Obama and Nancy and Harry to keep the car keys, or do we want an adult to be in charge while Obama takes Drivers Ed classes?

Exactly. I don't care what religion he follows, what religion he doesn't follow, or which religion he has abandoned. What I do care about is opposing him and any legislation he supports. I do think it is significant if he lies to us about his religion but there are so many larger things to worry about that I'm willing to let this one slide in favor of solving things that can be solved.

If there were a Christian in the White House doing what he is doing, I'd be as angry as I am now and work as hard to defeat him. If a Muslim president were working to reduce the size of the government and proposing tax cuts and working to protect other democracies in the world...I'd be pretty damned excited.

edutcher said...

The concept of seed is more Jewish than Moslem, from what I understand and, yes, Moslems do believe everyone is born Moslem and those not in the fold must be brought in. Not a tribal thing as Cedar contends.

If the original question is who started the 'O is a Moslem' thing, the first I remember is Hillary being asked in one of the '08 primary debates. Since the media hadn't deserted her yet, even money says one of the useless idiots therein or somebody in the Clinton crowd started it.

PS As I said in another post, The Zero is neither Protestant nor Moslem. Aside from Uncle Saul and maybe Father Karl, The Zero only worships the Zero.

AlphaLiberal said...

Good news for all you Muslim haters out there. A Muslim cabbie was stabbed and nearly killed in New York City.

The accounts says the anti-Muslim attacker asked "Are You Muslim?" and then repeatedly stabbed a man.

This will warm the cockles of many Muslim haters out there, who blame all Muslims for the attacks of 9/11 and want more conflict with the Muslim world.

Decent people, OTOH, are appalled.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So tell me Alpha. Are you just as appalled at this?

Beat Whitey Night?

garage mahal said...

Among the high-minded nuanced intellectuals, exotic foreign faiths are often deserving of respect, while redneck Christianity, of course, is only for idiots.

If Graham was born in the middle east somewhere, chances are he would be a muslim. An accident of geography. That's what makes this discussion so dumb. We're all born atheists, until our parents and houses of worship indoctrinate us with fear, ignorance, and dogma.

But back to the point, I keep hearing over and over we shouldn't listen to muslims or the Koran, shouldn't be tolerant of them, etc [and I agree 100%]- BUT, if Islam or the Koran states Obama is a muslim because his father was a muslim, we're supposed to respect that and accept that as the truth? The koran is "right" about something? Not to me.

Don Meaker said...

Of course Obama is a Christian. He is such a good Christian that he prays every day. He even prays 5 times a day. While bowing towards Mecca.

AlphaLiberal said...

Why does Franklin Graham paint Obama as a Muslim? Gee, I don't know. Hmmmm.... It's such a mystery.

What other light did he bring to our understanding of Islam? Oh!
Franklin, the rich heir, sad Islam is "a very evil and wicked religion."

And from Wikipedia:
In the August 30, 2010 issue of the Time magazine, "Is America Islamophobic?" Frank Graham reportedly said that Islam "is a religion of hatred. It's a religion of war." Building the cultural center near Ground Zero, he says, means Muslims "will claim now that the World Trade Center property ... is Islamic land.

Yeah. Thank you, Mr Extremist Rich Preacher Dude.

Not quite in keeping with the Gospels he uses to line his pockets. If a camel can p[ass through a needle, maybe Franklin Graham can go to heaven, after shaking down the poor and preaching hatred in the name of Christ.

Matthew 5:43-48 (New American Standard Bible)

43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Franklin Graham does not accept or practice this Gospel, so inconvenient to his agenda of hate.

AlphaLiberal said...

DBQ, obviously, if the claim is true, that is wrong and justice should be served. Simple.

I note, without surprise, you can muster no such condemnation of the guy who attacked the Muslim cabbie in NYC.

You guys sure do hate Muslims.

Michael said...

Alpha: If a man was stabbed because he was a Muslim then I hope justice is served.

Michael said...

Out of curiosity why did our smartest President ever utter the phrase "my Muslim faith?" How could such a phrase fall from his lips?

FormerTucsonan said...

I'd bet Obama is whatever religion is appropriate to circumstances.

Meeting with Egyptian officials....he's Muslim!

Speaking at an Baptist church on Chicago's south side....he's Christian!

Vegan buritto bar/coffee house/head shop in Madison...Democrat!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I note, without surprise, you can muster no such condemnation of the guy who attacked the Muslim cabbie in NYC.


You note nothing.

Obviously it goes without saying that attacking someone JUST because of their race, religion or any other reason is totally unacceptable, criminal and that any sane person would object to such actions.

However, since you and your ilk are famous for putting words in other's mouth and making up stories......I suppose we have to say it.

I was just woncering if your 'outrage' was selective: as I suspect it is.

Pogo said...

Obama is President Zelig.

David said...

Garage: It seems absolutely clear that we're all born theists.

alsafetymail: I'm sure there are other times, but one time President Obama explicitly identified himself as Christian was in explaining his opposition to gay marriage: "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix."

Scott M said...

We're all born atheists, until our parents and houses of worship indoctrinate us with fear, ignorance, and dogma.

LOL. There are very, very few true atheists in reality and they are usually (not always) obnoxious about it. Just about every atheist that I've had a meaningful debate with has turned out to be an agnostic...most without really realizing it prior.

Lem said...

Alpha Liberal is glad that finally a Muslim has been victimised.

So he can use it to continue to paint everybody as a bigot.

I got to hand it to Alpha.. he got a lot of patience.

shoutingthomas said...

This will warm the cockles of many Muslim haters out there, who blame all Muslims for the attacks of 9/11 and want more conflict with the Muslim world.

OmegaLiberal, you're a complete fucking nutjob.

Just in case you haven't found them yet, I suggest you join Code Pink or Women in Black. These are your natural comrades.

Either of these outfits can help you join up in the effort to fund Hamas and provide financial and material support to the jihadis.

You're a tool of the jihadis. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you are a jihadi disguising his identity for the purposes of posting on this board.

Your hatred of your own country, and your own people is truly astonishing. Well, it would be, but I've met so many assholes like you in leftist communities that I'm no longer astonished.

Saint Croix said...

"This whole seed fixation is profoundly un-American." In other words, Islam is un-American, and Jews are un-American.

Is Woody Allen a Jew or an agnostic? According to the Nation, and Ann apparently, Woody Allen is not a Jew. When he loses his faith he loses his Jewishness. Is this right? We are told it's not only right, but those who disagree are un-American (the Nation) and "we are free to laugh at such a ridiculous belief." (Ann).

In Israel, there is the "law of return." If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish, under the law, and can immigrate to Israel. Should we laugh at this? Why?

I like that Graham says, "It's obvious that the president has renounced the Prophet Muhammad and has renounced Islam." This is provocative and interesting. Because under Islam you are supposed to kill anyone who leaves the faith. Is Obama a closeted version of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Discuss.

shoutingthomas said...

And, by the way, OmegaLiberal, I recognize the tactics. You use the same ones all the time.

Like I said, I knew a number of Weathermen, and your tactics are just like theirs.

The daily martyr scenario you throw into the pot is typical.

What's your real name? What jihadi organization do you belong to?

FormerTucsonan said...

Ummm...

I think the jury may still be out on the guy who stabbed the cabbie.

Michael Enright is a film student at the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan and has been working with the Intersection International, a multifaith and multicultural effort which seeks to promote justice and peace. The project's website is strongly supportive of the Cordoba House project in lower Manhattan and videos of its leader, Imam Faisel Rauf, are posted on their website.

Sounds to me like he had a breakdown of some kind.

Lazarus Long said...

"It’s all about descent—and nauseatingly close to the “one drop rule” of the post-Reconstruction South. That rule held that if a person had any African or Indian ancestry whatsoever, he or she was classified as “colored” and subject to anti-miscegenation laws, voter disenfranchisement, and segregation at large. At least eighteen states adopted some form of the rule; Virginia’s 1924 law, for instance, was called the Racial Integrity Act."

All laws created, ecacted, signed into law and enforced by.....Democrats.

shoutingthomas said...

OK, OmegaLiberal, now we know.

You're a fake, in addition to being crazy.

Is it Code Pink?

Do you work directly for Hamas?

How exactly are you link to the jihadis?

Fen said...

(Savan has a grievance against whoever wrote that headline.)

I'm really sick of this being used as an excuse. The writer should be held responsible for whatever headline the editor chooses. If they don't like it, find a job with someone more ethical.

Shanna said...

I find this whole thing curious, since I can't see Obama as a devout man of any faith.

AC245 said...

garage mahal said...
But back to the point, I keep hearing over and over we shouldn't listen to muslims or the Koran, shouldn't be tolerant of them, etc [and I agree 100%]


You should probably spend less time hanging out at web sites like www.militantislammonitor.org.


AlphaLiberal said...
I note, without surprise, you can muster no such condemnation of the guy who attacked the Muslim cabbie in NYC.

You guys sure do hate Muslims.


You should probably stop attributing GasRage Fopah's attitude to the entire commentariat.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Alpha Liberal:

Nobody wants to see Muslim cabbies stabbed in the streets in America. Piss off.

I noted you waited like five minutes before announcing that no one condems the stabbing.

I would like to point out that you can't bring yourself to condemn the UW bombing that was cariied out by anti-Vietnam war protestors and was the subject of like five posts already.

Two can play this game.

Quaestor said...

Revenant wrote: "Is this the same one-drop rule that causes The Nation to repeatedly refer to Obama as African-American even though he is half white?"

Apparently the editors at The Nation think "American" refers to the white half -- those racists!

AC245 said...

Michael said...
Alpha: If a man was stabbed because he was a Muslim then I hope justice is served.


I'll go one better: regardless of why the guy was stabbed, I hope justice is served.

FormerTucsonan said...
Ummm...
I think the jury may still be out on the guy who stabbed the cabbie.


Another mentally disturbed violent lefty? Shock and surprise!

I wonder if the stabber was also a Talking Points Memo blogger, like the guy recently arrested for firebombing Russ Carnahan's campaign office?

Milwaukee said...

Alpha Liberal: I can take no pleasure in the death of an innocent person, regardless of their faith. While I do believe in the right of self defense, if the perpetrator went off without provocation, that is horrible. I'm sure the cabbie has a family that loves him and will miss him.

A phobia is an unreasonable fear, and as President Nixon reminded us, even paranoids have enemies. Supporters of Islam in America, referring to opponents as "Islamophobes or Muslimphobic" is disingenuous. Islam is famous for it's bloody borders, and the life of non-Muslims in a Muslim society can be pretty miserable. (Heck, for some Muslims in a Muslim society can be pretty miserable. Consider women, and their position.) So being alert to the threat Islam poses to our society is one thing, hating individual Muslims is another. I choose the former and not the latter.

I must protest the designation of some crimes as "hate crimes". Aren't all crimes of violence motivated by hate? If a White person kills a White person in a fit of anger, isn't that motivated by hate? We can, perhaps, distinguish between passion and cold-blooded. To find your wife in be with another man might incite a passionate killing. To slowly poison said wife over a period of months is cold-blooded. There seems a huge difference.

garage mahal said...

I wonder if the stabber was also a Talking Points Memo blogger, like the guy recently arrested for firebombing Russ Carnahan's campaign office?

"The suspect was reportedly a disgruntled progressive activist employed by Russ Carnahan. An unnamed source familiar with the case released the information."

An anonymous unnamed source reportedly told someone close to Gateway Pundit? Good enough for me! Awesome journalism.


Powers is a man on the edge, who has suffered a lot of personal trauma in the recent past. Powers, a radical leftist, is accused of a pretty serious crime in what could only be considered a desperate cry for help.

Man on the edge! LOLZ

Scott M said...

As a Missouri resident, Garage, I was a bit puzzled why the firebombing of Russ's office didn't make bigger news nationally. It occurred to me that the most likely reason was that it wasn't some easily pigeon-holed conservative. Turns out, I was more correct than I thought.

The peaceful progressives strike yet again. Probably an atheist too, right Garage?

garage mahal said...

ScottM
As of yet, there is no corroboration with any local authorities just who it is.

Revenant said...

There are very, very few true atheists in reality and they are usually (not always) obnoxious about it.

There are more atheists in America than there are Jews and Muslims combined. We just generally try not to draw attention to ourselves in public, mostly because of people like you.

Revenant said...

An anonymous unnamed source reportedly told someone close to Gateway Pundit? Good enough for me! Awesome journalism.

It is comparable to "a New York cabbie said it happened" in terms of credibility, is it not? In both cases it appears people are eager to leap to conclusions. :)

Scott M said...

There are more atheists in America than there are Jews and Muslims combined. We just generally try not to draw attention to ourselves in public, mostly because of people like you.

Why me? I said meaningful debate. That means a two-way dialog about something important to both participants that both can, hopefully grow from. Why is that somehow unpleasant to you and your feeble attempt at snark?

To your point, it's quite possible, but if you're going to make a claim like that, I would like to see your source. Even if you had ironclad numbers that x number of people checked ATHEIST on a poll, it doesn't change my original point...most of those "atheists" were actually open to the possibility that there is something to theism, aka, agnostic. Those were the same people that would self-identify as atheists.

RebeccaH said...

Ever notice how these lefty writers always seem to focus on race, even when what they're discussing religion?

I don't think Obama is a Muslim. I don't think he's even a believing Christian. I think he's an Alinskyite opportunist who has done more damage to this country in 18 months than any president in history.

Famous Original Mike said...

Why anyone would feed AlphaTroll is beyond me.

Scott M said...

It is comparable to "a New York cabbie said it happened" in terms of credibility, is it not? In both cases it appears people are eager to leap to conclusions. :)

A child posing as an adult with something meaningful to say brought it up and jumped to the conclusion that most hereabouts would celebrate a Muslim being stabbed. When that didn't happen, he accused everyone here of not denouncing it loudly or quickly enough.

Iapetus said...

@Der Hahn 11:39 am: "So people refer to Obama as the first (real) black president but not the first Muslim president based on what rule?"

Duh? The rule that there is no such thing as a religion gene.

AST said...

It's a biblical term. Why wouldn't an evangelical preacher use it? Both Arabs and Jews claim to be the seed of Abraham, with equal evidence in the Old Testament.

Personally I don't think Obama is all that religious, period. He went to church for 20 years without ever hearing Jeremiah Wright say anything radical or offensive? He certainly wasn't listening very closely.

JBlog said...

"Thats news to me.. when did he do that?"

Please -- the man has publicly stated he's a Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmxVlHwLplE

I'm not a supporter, I didn't vote for him, I certainly don't agree with his politics.

But this "he's really a Muslim" stuff is deep in tin-foil-hat territory.

Revenant said...

most of those "atheists" were actually open to the possibility that there is something to theism, aka, agnostic.

That's not what "agnostic" means.

New "Hussein" Ham said...

"Please -- the man has publicly stated he's a Christian."

The man also publicly stated that he would close the gulag at Guantanamo Bay within one year if we would agree to elect him.

Barack Obama is a liar. The fact that he claims to be a Christian is not dispositive of anything.

In Islam, it is appropriate if you are "under attack" to deny you are a Muslim.

So, again, Mr. Hussein Obama's protestations that he is not a Muslim are not dispositive of anything necessarily.

He certainly holds Iftar dinners at Ramadan. He certainly demands people call him by a Muslim name. He doesn't attend a Christian church with any regularity. He goes out of his way to bow to Muslim theologians in Saudi Arabia.

He leaves the impression that he's lying and that he is, in fact and deed, a Muslim.

Scott M said...

That's not what "agnostic" means.

In the context of this discussion, you know exactly what I'm talking about and are now attempting to snipe for no good reason. The definition of agnostic is wide enough to encompass my point.

Please respond to my question. Why would someone convinced of their atheism shy away from a reasonable debate on the issue, particularly when, in my experience, they are so overt about being atheists in the first place?

Bear in mind, though, that I'm one of the last people in the room to ever bring up religion in conversation.

hombre said...

Why does Franklin Graham paint Obama as a Muslim? Gee, I don't know. Hmmmm.... It's such a mystery.

Why do liberals favor the straw man fallacy to the exclusion of what people really say? Gee, I don't know. Hmmmmm .... It's such a mystery.

Graham stated unequivocally that Obama renounced Islam. What is it about "renounced" that Alpha doesn't understand.

I don't know the context of Graham's comments, but if he equivocates, it is, understandably, about Obama's Christianity.

Having said that, I can't wait for the next thread where Alpha and Garage undertake a vigorous defense of Jews or Christians, rivaling their zeal in defense of Muslims. LMAO

Michael said...

Obama: My Muslim Faith. Corrected by George Stephanopolis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M

Rialby said...

I said it before, I'll say it again... when historians look back at the 2008 race they'll marvel at how we were all duped into believing that the election of Obama was a gamechanger for America because we elected a black man to the presidency. As if it was all about race. In fact, race was such a non-factor in the 2008 election.

The true gamechanging aspect of that election was that we elected someone with values that are antithetical to the values of the majority of Americans. Whether those values came from another religious background, a childhood spent in a foreign country, from a family of radicals or from radical leftist friends/associates/mentors is a moot point.

Rialby said...

By the way, just to fuel this discussion, I will raise the points I raised on this blog a few days ago...

Re: Jeremiah Wright:
*Dr. Wright is a student of the history of religions. His master’s degree from the University of Chicago is in that discipline and his area of concentration as an historian of religions was Islam in West Africa. While a student at the University of Chicago (U of C) he studied with the esteemed Islamic professor, Dr. Fazlur Rahman.
* Dr. Wright’s Master’s thesis at the Divinity School of the U of C was the Tijaniyya among the Bambara, the Fulbe and the Tuckolour. The Tijaniyya was a 19th Century Sufi movement (a sect of Sufism) which swept into West Africa during the period of the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade.
* In 1984, Rev. Dr. Wright was invited to join an interfaith delegation to visit Libya in celebration of its 15th Jamahiriya. He did so. He did not meet with, nor has he ever met with President Kadaffi, and he had to leave the delegation a week early to satisfy other family commitments.

garage mahal said...

Having said that, I can't wait for the next thread where Alpha and Garage undertake a vigorous defense of Jews or Christians, rivaling their zeal in defense of Muslims. LMAO

I can't ever remember offering zeal, or even a defense of muslims. In fact see 1:45 in this post, maybe you missed it.

AllenS said...

This Obama character, always saying something that has to be interpreted by someone. WTF? Who in the fuck is this guy? Quick, get an interpreter.

miller said...

Geez people.

I mean really.

You really think this is something worth discussing?

I don't support Obama politically.

But this is simply garbage. Enough with this. There are better things to talk about than whether Obama is a druid or follower of Helios.

I realize that the "other" is mysterious. But it comes across as uneducated yokelism.

And I say this with the painful insight that this makes me closer to the Michael Bloomberg than I ever expected to be.

At least I'm not one with crazies like Howard Dean.

The ones who keep bringing this up - y'all simply talking crazy.

hombre said...

I can't ever remember offering zeal, or even a defense of muslims. In fact see 1:45 in this post, maybe you missed it.

I did miss it. My apologies. I must have judged you by the company you keep.

garage mahal said...

I work alone.

traditionalguy said...

@ Miller...So many of the 6 billion people on the planet cling to their religion and to their guns that calling them stupid is not a good tactic when you need to win friends and influence them. And they may be right.

JAL said...

These people (libs at The Nation) don't get nuance much, do they? Or figurative speech. Or context and comprehension. (But they are so much smarter than the rest of us turkeys and clingers.)

I think Franklin Graham may be giving way more credit to Obama's claims than most Americans. That being said, I did hear Obama (TV. Once when I made the mistake of leaving it on when he was being interviewed or something. A long time ago. ) say he was a Christian and I think -- I think -- I heard him say he had "accepted Jesus Christ." It was such a mind blower (that he picked up -- and was using -- that lingo) that I simply put it in my "Haven't A Clue What That Just Was" box.
Total silence form the MSM. Of course. (Because they all know he didn't really mean it? As opposed to that weirdo Methodist Bush. But not like that unweirdo Methodsit Hillary Clinton ...)

FWIW ... Graham is correct in that when one is born to a Muslim father that person is counted as a Muslim. Period. And beyond that Muslims like to assimilate any and all by any and all means.

The heart isn't the deal ... it's getting people to verbalize the declaration. Remember that news reporter and photographer a couple years ago who on camera claimed to have converted?

Why didn't the MSM laugh that all the way through the evening news?

If that was Christian or a Jew -- or heck -- a Buddhist or a Swedenborgian ... (Besides being impossible to imagine, right? Ask yourself why ...) it would have been haha haha ha Crazy [insert name] wackos thinking they can "convert" people with guns to their heads and knives to their throats.

JBlog said...

"Barack Obama is a liar. The fact that he claims to be a Christian is not dispositive of anything."

Nice hat.

JAL said...

BHO "...that even after I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior...."

Newsweek interview 2008

I think he said it publically, also.

Given the theology expressed at his church, I am thinking he was pulling one of those blank screen screen things he likes to do.

Note no one in the left press had a hissy fit.

Funny, isn't it.

jr565 said...

Former Law Student wrote:
“I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim. His father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother.

So Mullah Graham is an expert in halacha as well as Sharia law.


Is he wrong?

garage mahal said...

FWIW ... Graham is correct in that when one is born to a Muslim father that person is counted as a Muslim. Period. And beyond that Muslims like to assimilate any and all by any and all means.

JAL, according to who though? Muslims? the koran? They believe in stonings too. Fuck 'em!

edutcher said...

Michael said...

Alpha: If a man was stabbed because he was a Muslim then I hope justice is served.

Not to pick, but, hopefully, we should want justice served regardless of why, but you are right nonetheless.

JAL said...

AL Why does Franklin Graham paint Obama as a Muslim?

See? The left can't read or comprehend what they do read.

Proof.

AllenS said...

Let's go over this one more time. I'm getting some major WTF vibes from this:

"You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith," Obama said. And then, Stephanopoulus corrects him and says "you're Christian faith." Obama responds. "Yes, my Christian faith."

So then, Obama must have meant to say: "You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Christian faith," Well, why in the fuck would McCain want to talk, and I guess criticize him about his Christian faith?

Seriously, WTF?

Rialby said...

Allen - that is perhaps the most cogent thing on this I've ever read.

Mick said...

All this talk about the Usurper's origins, religion, and the nonsense arguments that the 14th Amendment needs to be "ammended", to take away Birthright citizenship for children of aliens (the amendment makes no such provision) is all cover for Obama (the Usurper).
Soon the CORRECT argument that Obama is ineligible for the office firstly because his father was not a citizen when Obama 2 was born will be brought to light. This talk now is a setup to frame the coming argument.
I suspect Prof. Althouse believes that Native born citizens are the same as Natural Born Citizens (eligible to be POTUS) because she thinks it is "unfair" that the drop of semen that created Obama was from a non US citizen should prevent him from being POTUS.
The reason for the requirement of
A2S1C5 is apparent in the Usurper's actions since becoming POTUS. The apple does not fall far from the tree. He has shown that his attchment and allegiance to this country are sorely lacking. Nowhere is it more evidenced than his siding against nearly 70% of Americans on the Immigration and GZ Mosque issues. Even Laurence Tribe said the Natural Born Citizens are those "born w/in a Nation's Territory AND ALLEGIANCE."
Where do you think ideas of attachment and allegiance come from? Probably because he did not want to absolutely lie, Tribe said the truth in a veiled way. If simple birth w/in territory of a nation made one a Natural Born Citizen he would only say "born w/in a Nation's territory". He knows Obama is ineligible, as does ALL of congress. But they think it is unfair to deny the "black" man the Presidency based upon the accident of that Obama Sr. Drop of semen, so they are trying to ammend the constitution by precedent. Their Treason will become apparent to everyone in due time.

JAL said...

Frm AL our resident theologian, judge and jury:

Matthew 5:43-48 (New American Standard Bible)

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Franklin Graham does not accept or practice this Gospel, so inconvenient to his agenda of hate.


Yeah. He says Islam is evil and violent. (!! Who'da thunk!) You know ... maybe related in some way to the one that flies plane bombs into buildings and stones people to death, and hangs gays ....

That being said I would wager confidently that Franklin Graham has personally done more good for Muslims than you, AL, the most tolerant and open minded guru of all that is right and good and true on Althouse.

(When Bashir bitched back in 2001 about not getting the Christnmas boxes in parts of Sudan, Graham told him "Stop bombing my hospital [9 times] and you might get some." Cheeky, I'd say.)

Revenant said...

"That's not what "agnostic" means."

In the context of this discussion, you know exactly what I'm talking about and are now attempting to snipe for no good reason. The definition of agnostic is wide enough to encompass my point.

An agnostic is a person who believes it is impossible to know whether or not gods exist. Agnostics are a type of weak atheist. Then there are "strong" atheists, like me, who actively believe that no gods exist.

You have chosen to redefine "atheist" as "a person who believes no gods exist and whose mind is completely closed to the possibility of being wrong about that". That's not what "atheist" means. The correct word for describing an atheist who admits that theists may be right is... "atheist".

So, yes, obviously under your invented definition most atheists are jerks, because most people who think it is impossible for them to be wrong are jerks. But few real atheists match your straw man.

Michael said...

edutcher: you are quite right. In fact I would like the guy who did it to pay big time and I would like the cab driver not to suffer or feel threatened by the world around him.

Michael said...

Allen S: This tape of Obama saying "my Muslim faith" is akin to the videos of people falling from the WTC towers: not permitted to be seen or spoken about in polite company. Apparently neither event actually happened.

Revenant said...

AL,

I think you need to learn the difference between hating Islam and hating Muslims.

There is nothing un-Christian about hating a philosophy or religion that runs counter to the Christian perception of God's will. The important thing is not to let that spill over into hatred of the misguided souls who follow that philosophy or religion.

AlphaLiberal said...

lokkee here. Yet another Tea Party conservative espousing racist who, no doubt, cons will claim is not racist. "Why do those liberals keeps bringing up racism, anyway? It's soooo unfair!"

This from the Tea Party guy, based in Washington, DC for 30 years, who wrote a weird ass transit map:

"[I]t is clear that most black Democrats in politics & the media are complete knaves and idiots"

“Kagan says Obama is ‘my niggah.’”

Wait, wait, don't tell me:
Anyone pointing out his history of racism is "playing the race card."

A lot of you owe the NAACP a huge apology.

Fen said...

Alpha's having another meltdown.

Please show some consideration for his mental state.

AlphaLiberal said...

rev:

"There is nothing un-Christian about hating a philosophy or religion that runs counter to the Christian perception of God's will. The important thing is not to let that spill over into hatred of the misguided souls who follow that philosophy or religion."

Dude. Come on. You insult their religion, you insult people. About a billion.

Kind of like if they said "I don't hate the Americans, I just hate America." Oh, OK then. No probs, right?

I mean, come on. Jesus didn't put a rider on "Love your enemy*." * - as in "but OK to hate their religion."

I would enjoy linking to Kos' new and very timely book, American Taliban, but fuck it, I'm getting a beer.

Michael said...

AL: Damn, how will we find the Kos book with you out for a beer? We'll have to wait, I suppose.

Are you going to the Piss Mohammed showing after the beer or before? Very edgy.

AC245 said...

I would enjoy linking to Kos' new and very timely book, American Taliban, but fuck it, I'm getting a beer.

I'd choose to get drunk too if the other option were promoting a book that was based on doctored poll results that Kos paid Research 2000 to fabricate.

Revenant said...

Dude. Come on. You insult their religion, you insult people. About a billion.

In which part of the Gospels did Jesus say "thou shalt not preach unto those who shalt feel offended by thy preaching"? I missed that bit.

If I say "'Twilight' was a badly-plotted piece of cliched shit" I personally know about twenty women who would be horribly offended. Doesn't mean I hate those women; I just hate that effin' book.

GMay said...

Because something with the title of "American Taliban" is full of respect, tolerance and civil discourse (and a bunch of conclusions that were originally made with corrupted Research 2000 data).

Revenant said...

Is the American Taliban responsible for the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin"?

No, wait -- that was Rush Limbaugh, probably.

Revenant said...

The cabbie-stabber Alpha was ranting about earlier turns out to be a photographer working for a left-wing pro-mosque group.

I wonder if he was an overly-enthusiastic Moby who got caught.

garage mahal said...

Dude. Come on. You insult their religion, you insult people. About a billion.

That's kind of the idea behind an insult. And one of the true pleasures of being an atheist.

I say "your faith blows people up". And they say "well it's only a small minority". And I then take a drink of beer.

AllenS said...

Alpha,

Go here to get some information on the guy who stabbed the Muslim.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/AntiMuslim_attacker_works_at_proPark51_group.html

AllenS said...

Revenant beat me to it.

Youngblood said...

"The Prophet forbade wine, as I recall, not beer or hard liquor. (Our word alcohol comes from Arabic of course, so if they meant to prohibit all forms of alcohol they could have specified, right?)"

No. That's not right.

The word "alcohol" comes from al-kuhl, which is a cosmetic. In Latin, it came to mean the essence or spirit of a thing. Eventually, it was applied to distilled alcohol.

The Arabic word for alcohol is al-kuhool, which was borrowed back from Latin a thousand years after Mohammed's time.

Rialby said...

I went back and watched a longer excerpt of the Obama/George S. video. I revise what I stated before.

Stephanopoulos was challenging Obama to point to any instance where the McCain campaign implied that Obama had Muslim CONNECTIONS. Obama gets very irritated. Here's my modified version of what was said:

Stephanopoulos asks Obama - why would you continue to insist that McCain and the Republicans are talking about your Muslim connections?

Obama - they love to throw a rock and hide i.e. yes they did.

Stephanopoulos - but they didn't

Obama - right, but Republican commenters on Fox News...

Stephanopoulos - but they didn't

Obama - Palin said her daughter was off-limits. Then McCain accused liberal blogs of attacking Governor Palin.

Obama continues - You're right that Obama has not talked about my Muslim faith.

Stephanopoulos - Corrects him

Obama - Corrects himself - what I meant was that he hadn't suggested I am a Muslim and no one senior in his campaign has either. But, some Republicans have called me a Muslim. I am deeply offended.

Few things:
* Obama attacks Fox News yet again
* Obama is offended by the idea that people would think he was a Muslim
* He accuses the Republicans of saying things but provides no evidence
* When Obama starts talking about Sarah Palin's daughter being off-limits, he is saying that in a comparative way. "Something in my life is off-limits, i.e. my connections to Islam."

There again he establishes the template that he and the rest of the Left have constructed around themselves - it is acceptable for me to use my background to solidify my argument (my family includes many Muslims - Cairo speech) but unacceptable for you to bring it up in any way. If you do, we will accuse you of bigotry, homophobia, sexism, intolerance, islamaphobia, racism and/or xenophobia.

AC245 said...

This from the Tea Party guy, based in Washington, DC for 30 years, who wrote a weird ass transit map:

"[I]t is clear that most black Democrats in politics & the media are complete knaves and idiots"


Interesting selective editing by AlphaLiberal. Let's compare it to the unedited version:

"[I]t is clear that most black Democrats in politics & the media are complete knaves and idiots (much like their white counterparts)."

Sheesh. Even the leftist blog he copy and pasted this from had the decency to provide the whole sentence while spinning their little OMG! OMG! There's a racist guillotine-wielding maniac reich-winger on the loose! fantasy.

(The quote is apparently from a facebook post by "Bruce Majors", a person I've not ever heard of before.)

jr565 said...

AllenS wrote:

Go here to get some information on the guy who stabbed the Muslim.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/AntiMus

Interesting. why is the left so hateful and violent. But that story makes me wonder. Was the guy batshit crazy OR did he hope to stab the muslim and not get caught so that violence could then be blamed on conservatives who hate muslims.

HT said...

Bruce Majors is a DC real estate agent working the neighborhoods. He designed a visitors' guide for T Partiers that is mostly alarmist. He's lived in dc since 1980.

If you can bear it, here's Yglesias' take on it

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/25/bruce-majors-profile/

Most Washingtonians realize he was going for the publicity.

And that's probably more than you wanted to know.

AC245 said...

If you can bear it, here's Yglesias' take on it

No thanks.

Even if I cared who Bruce Majors was, I certainly wouldn't look to those Soros-paid stooges as a source of information.

Reliapundit said...

if obama really was a crypto-muslim and a radical leftist, then would he be doing anything differently?

nope.

RLB_IV said...

First, I would like to say that the most interesting comments seem to be in the morning. That said, I wish to say that those who do not understand the essence of the Christian faith blather on and on.

Unlike Islam, no one is born a Christian. You may be born into one of the many churches but that does not make you a Christian. That only gives you a platform to "seal the deal" after your level of sentience has risen to the point that you can make a decision to which you can swear.

As for Obama, I don't know what he believes in his heart. I feel sorry for him. He seems to be a man without an island. If was raised without my Dad, I would be either in prison or dead.

Chase said...

I have personally known Franklin Graham for more than 20 years (a fact that will probably lose him admirers here). I have only found him to be someone of sincere and enthusiastic embrace of Chistianity. He is a different person than his father (whom I have only once met and shaken his hand), much less nuanced and more willing to say what he feels. His charity, Samaritan's Purse (I have a former long-term business relationship with Samaritan's Purse), is often the first on the scene with medical and food help in disasters around the world, including Haiti and Muslim nations. He and his charity demonstrate "the love of Christ" in a far more concrete way than someone such as AlphaLiberal here can ever begin to comprehend through the lens of their blind left-wing hate.

Youngblood said...

"Was the guy batshit crazy OR did he hope to stab the muslim and not get caught so that violence could then be blamed on conservatives who hate muslims."

The guy is a student filmmaker and photographer who is freelancing while putting together his thesis. If he volunteered for the group in order to build up his portfolio or reel, his connection to the group says nothing at all about his politics.

As tempting as it may be to try to albatross this around the neck of the Left, nothing that has come out about this guy suggests that he was some kind of left-wing activist.

cookasia said...

To former law student: whoever you may be and whatever it is you believe, I am not and never have been and never will be and was not born a Muslim. I am a Christian, a Catholic at that, and am totally offended that you say that you "prophet" says we are all born Muslim. Did I read you correctly? You cannot be serious. Please......

T J Sawyer said...

I thought we were done with is he or isn't he.

But then I googled the phrase "Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said he had a one-on-one meeting with Obama"

I did it just to see what kind of silly report this is. Now I find that Israel Today and Nile TV both reported it back in June. See
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=128&view=item&idx=2041

So maybe it is just our politician Obama telling everyone what they would like to hear, just as in the 2008 campaign.

Sigh.

JAL said...

hey cookasia -- the bad news is Islam does teach that everyone is born Muslim.

When people who somehow don't get it at first (darned Jesuits and Baptists, atheist teachers and parents, etc.) and "convert" it is said they "revert."

Srsly. Look it up.

jr565 said...

If everyone is a muslim then how are Christians and Jews decendants of apes and pigs?

AllenS said...

I'll come back to this discussion later.

Are you? Maybe a new thread would be better.

Fen said...

As tempting as it may be to try to albatross this around the neck of the Left, nothing that has come out about this guy suggests that he was some kind of left-wing activist.

Other than the fact that he worked for a left-wing activist group...

Michael said...

"Other than the fact that he worked for a left-wing activist group..."

And confronted a Muslim cab driver who was against building a mosque near ground zero.

Youngblood said...

"Other than the fact that he worked for a left-wing activist group..."

He volunteered for Intersections International, an interfaith group that promotes religious understanding.

The nature of his volunteer work was to embed with the US military in Afghanistan to document the trajectory of his best friend's life from civilian teen to military adult.

There is no indication that his documentary was anything but respectful, and he apparently idolized his friend and his choice to join the military.

On his Facebook page, he also supported the Tea Part candidate Greg Ball, who isn't exactly a Left winger.

You can claim that he's some sort of Left wing activist all you want, but so far the evidence doesn't really support that contention.

ken in sc said...

Does President Obama really smoke Kools, as I read today? Those things will make your lymph nodes swell up and hurt. I know from personal experience. He should switch to Merit Menthol--or quit.

DWPittelli said...

Personally, I would say Obama is not a Muslim, but the other perspective, that he is, is just as legitimate. (Of course, to the left, it is offensive and stupid, but only if said by a non-Muslim.) Ironically, if you say to someone born Jewish, who is now an atheist (or some other religion), "you're not a Jew, you're an atheist," you are not only wrong, you're offensively wrong.

Andrew said...

OK! He's a Muslim! He's a Martian! He's the Easter Bunny! Can we please get on with things?

I've lost some faith in Obama, though I did work hard for his election. I take some solace in that the worst things people can say about him are utterly preposterous. On the other hand, some of that is because his opposition is so pathetically unable to advance an agenda beyond soundbites and platitudes (e.g., the Beck-Palin thing we had here in DC yesterday).

But the caricatures of Islam, and the tenor of the invective, remind me that bigotry is still rampant. I don't doubt many of these same people would be making (public) race-based allegations if that were not now so thoroughly taboo. It's like debating whether someone is gay without stopping to ask why anyone cares in the first place; we know it's usually an invidious reason.

Now: Can we debate life on the merits again?

Milwaukee said...

Whether or not President Obama is Muslim is germane. What the Christians in Spain found after many crusades to remove the Muslims, was that they had to remove all Muslims. The local friendly Muslim that everybody thought was "one of us" would support the Muslim army in it's counter attacks. The merciful thing was to expel all Muslims from Spain. As blunt as that was, it was better than genocide. Where are President Obama's priorities, and where is his love and his heart? Does he weep for our fallen dead? Or does he see in America an evil country which requires fundamental transforming? (If America wasn't evil, would it still need transforming?) There are questions which should have been explored before his election. But we were all so thrilled at having our first Black President, we didn't care what he said. He was going to be our first Black President.

Where is Madame LaFarge? Is she knitting today?

miller said...

I'm beginning to think that all this hoopla about Obama's religion is being foisted by people who just want to stir up trouble.

I. Don't. Care.

I care that he is a profligate spender and an ignorant socialist.

His religious faith (or lack of)? Not so important.