June 25, 2010

"She said she was meeting with a rape crisis unit, stuff like that. She said it was a high authority person who has a lot of power. She was scared of him."

The Gore accuser made a contemporaneous statement to her friend, according to the friend.

What is the evidentiary weight of a contemporaneous statement like this? It was taken very seriously when aimed at a notable conservative.

78 comments:

former law student said...

What is the evidentiary weight of a contemporaneous statement like this? It was taken very seriously when aimed at a notable conservative.

So, does this mean Gore is now eligible for the Supreme Court? Or did Clarence Thomas do some jail time? I'm confused.

Nichevo said...

it's not the evidence, it's the seriousness of the crime...right?

MadisonMan said...

Makes you wonder what Tipper put up with.

HDHouse said...

OHMYGOD...Bigfoot...It was Bigfoot...I tell ya'

It's true...I was scared. It was "stalking me"...I mean "STALKING ME"....

help me help me...I see Russia...its growing faint....he moved in next door...fence...darkness closing in...I think....therefore.....I am.....

Mary Beth said...

@fls, Supreme Court or jail time are the only options with an accusation like this?

Geoff Matthews said...

I believe that one of Clinton's girl's (the one from when he was still Governor, but not Flowers) also had told a contemporary, but it wasn't enough to sour the fem-left on him.

jayne_cobb said...

A taiwanese news organization animates the incident

It'll scar ya.

traditionalguy said...

Napalm in the morning smells like... prima facie proof of the charges. This gal needs to get an interview done with Breitbart and put onto U-Tube.

former law student said...

Mary Beth -- Clarence Thomas was the notable conservative cited as a parallel.

I tried to figure out the lessons from Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas so that I could apply them to masseuse/Al Gore, but I couldn't. Unless the lesson is, "Well you get embarrassed but then you get over it as you enjoy your new status."

Nichevo said...

fls,

you would refute the arguments of your interlocutors better if you understood them.

or tried to understand them.

or pretended to understand them.


TW: consuma. The accuser's massage techniques were recommended to Al Gore by Consuma Repots.

The Crack Emcee said...

Everybody involved in this - Gore, the alleged victim, and her friend - are all liars.

But let's keep investigating, to see what's true.

Paul said...

former law student said...So, does this mean Gore is now eligible for the Supreme Court? Or did Clarence Thomas do some jail time? I'm confused.

fls--I'm a former art student, so maybe you can explain to me what Clarence Thomas did that borders on the prosecutable. As I recall, he was accused of making reference to a porno film at the office, joking about a pubic hair at the office, and asking Anita Hill out five times, IIRC.

Which of these accusations is comparable to types of things Bill Clinton and Al Gore now have been accused of?

Nichevo said...

Cracky, can't we just enjoy this? After all the silky pony DID bone the videographer.

traditionalguy said...

The News paper is acting like Sherlock Holmes in this story. My, my. If the newspapers start doing the job again that The Enquirer had taken over from them, we may see some more information on this charge coming out soon. In any event, Gore's chance at running for President again are being destroyed by this...Hmmm.

former law student said...

nichevo, et al: I said from the get-go that I didn't understand the parallel. This makes time no. 3.

William said...

For all its comic potential, I was saddened to hear of Gore's domestic troubles. Neither his marriage nor his five hundred dollar massage ended happily. You can chortle all you want, but if Gore wasn't able to negotiate these passages, do you think your chances of success will be any greater....With all of Gore's wealth, social position and need for a facade of respectability, he wasn't able to keep his marriage intact. This undermines one's faith in the bonds and solemn vows of this institution. Even more subversive of human happiness is Gore's failure to find a satisfactory resolution to his needs in a five hundred dollar massage.....I have long held suspicions about the institution of marriage. But this revelation that a five hundred dollar massage can end in scandal and frustration subverts my belief in the institution of money.

Roger J. said...

contemperanous statements are only valid if they are made to Nina Totenberg who will then lie about them


Hey--shout out to Harry House--how they hanging there harry--ever get your nine patent numbers emailed to me?

HDHouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HDHouse said...

shoutout to RogerJ

when you demonstrate that you an actual human with DNA....lol, i'm all over you...but to date...well call me a doubting Thomas...but I'm not sure you are a figment or a frament of some freaks imagination....i'm sure you understand...this has obviously come up before...

Fred4Pres said...

There is always a double standard when a conservative is involved.

Gore gets a pass because he is saving the planet. A little extra curricular activity is...well... forgiveable.

Sex Poodle. Sexy Beast.

c3 said...

With all of Gore's wealth, social position and need for a facade of respectability, he wasn't able to keep his marriage intact.

I hope that was meant facetiously because I would see it not as an "in spite of..." but more of a "because of all of his..."

Seven Machos said...

I just do not find it credible that Al Gore does not know how to find an escort properly. If this is all true, the stupidity of it boggles the mind.

mccullough said...

I always thought the weakness in Hill's claims was that she followed Thomas to the next job. In other words, his overtures didn't bother her.

Anyway, Bill Clinton put all of this to rest.

John Stodder said...

Or did Clarence Thomas do some jail time? I'm confused.

Maybe I'm the one who's confused.

Thomas wasn't accused of assault, was he? It was harassment, which doesn't usually get you jail time. You've conflated the two, or is there a different standard for heroes vs. villains?

John Stodder said...

But the parallel, FLS, is that the contemporaneous statement removed any official suspicion that Anita Hill was lying, despite all her other actions suggesting that maybe her accusation wasn't entirely truthful. Using that same standard here, Gore's accuser is now confirmed as telling the truth, without room for doubt.

You know the internet phrase..."just sayin'."

A.W. said...

Btw, you can see the computer animated version of the account, in chinese, here: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/25/oh-my-taiwanese-animators-re-create-the-al-gore-massage-incident/

Like I said repeatedly, I don't know if Al Gore did it. But I do know this... its f---ing hilarious.

edutcher said...

The Professor is right in asking about the evidence. It's too bad the evidence, or lack of it, never mattered to Dan Blather & Company as much as the political affiliation.

As Roger Simon has noted, Drudge and the Enquirer have become the organs of record now, which is sad, because the Establishment Media can't be trusted in most people's minds and only exists to do a job if it's a Conservative or Republican. Much of the time, said Media misrepresented what actually happened.

First Edwards, now The Living Redwood. This sort of thing has been a long time coming.

WV "depanki" What comes after dehanki.

A.W. said...

well, this narrows it down some.

Well, logically these are the most likely possibilities.

1) The woman is telling the truth. Al Gore gets arrested for actual assault.

2) the woman and her friend are both lying, now.

3) the woman is lying, and lied to her friend in such a way to make her story seem more believable today.

4) everyone is lying, somehow. Weird possibility, but its an option.

5) the woman is telling the truth but mistaken. She was actually molested by Robin Williams wearing his outfit from bicentenial man. an easy mistake to make, when you think about it.

Former Law Student, and present liberal dissembler

> So, does this mean Gore is now eligible for the Supreme Court? Or did Clarence Thomas do some jail time? I'm confused.

Ann is comparing the state of the evidence. i don't recall anita hill ever alleging thomas did more than simple harassment. by comparison this woman alleged actual assault. But the question of believability is parallel.

i know that is too complex for your little mind, but do try to follow...

MadisonMan said...

AW -- Freeman posted that over in the Lotus Flower thread. I agree, it's great, but I think Al should be fatter.

The Crack Emcee said...

Nichevo,

"Cracky, can't we just enjoy this?"

Of course we can. hell, I don't enjoy it until I hear the word "astrology" and then - POW! - it's a laugh riot! Throw NewAge into the mix and then we're either in the realm of the delusional or straight-up liars - which doesn't concern me much, except for how much "I told you so" cred I get:

And for sure, either way, I told you so.

William,

"This undermines one's faith in the bonds and solemn vows of this institution."

Don't let it. This is just assholes at play. I see people with strong, secure marriages all the time.

jimbino said...

I don't know about the rest of you men out there, but I always first ASK my massage therapists if I can caress their boobs and stick my tongue in their mouths.

What is modern man coming to?

The Crack Emcee said...

I just love the concept of massage "therapy". Makes the hippies sound like they're doing something legit, when it's their usual wanna be sexual bullshit, until something happens they didn't count on.

And before anybody starts screeching at me, I've had more than my share of really good massages but not one of the people doing it ever claimed it was any kind of therapy or that they were any kind of therapists. It was just a fucking massage.

The bullshit that's allowed to careen around us is amazing.

JAL said...

Well I have heard that a significant effort was made to go through Sarah Palin's household trash to find something, anything to expose the Truth about ... whatever, something....

But the newspaper that heard about these allegations what -- two years ago, didn't bother to check ANYTHING out about it?

And the Edwards story was sat upon by the MSM for so long it turned into a farce exceeding Jon Stewart's and SNL's best material.

And then there was that awful Should-Set-Himself-On-Fire-Drudge who had the nerve, The. Nerve. to write about a blue dress that the MSM had zippered its pencil cases about.

I detect the slight whiff of possibility of a pattern of behavior here.

As the crew of the good ship We Con the World says, "the truth will never find its way to your tv."

Trooper York said...

I have to admit this is funny and all that stuff but some of us have to maintain a discreet silence about this!

But the rest of you knuckleheads carryon.

vince52 said...

There's a $540 credit card bill for a single massage session in a hotel. Res ipsa loquitor!

Now stop acting so shocked.

Muckraker said...

Humbly Submitted for Your Approval

Al Gore and Suite 903: The Avatar Version

http://www.bloggybayou.com/2010/06/al-gore-and-suite-903-avatar-version.html

Cheers
Muckraker

lacegrl130 said...

Really, powerful Democrats are starting to edge out Republicans for the ick factor...

TRO said...

"You can chortle all you want, but if Gore wasn't able to negotiate these passages, do you think your chances of success will be any greater."

Hell yeah. Cause I am a better man than him. Simple as that.

Mary Beth said...

fls, I got the reference. I just thought that offering those as the only two reactions was false logic.

LesLein said...

Hill's only contemporaneous corroborating witness, Susan Hoerchner, originally placed her conversations at a time and place where Thomas could not possibly have been the harasser. Hoerchner told a Democratic Senate staffer that the corroborating phone calls took place in the spring of 1981, months before Hill started working for Thomas.

Hoerchner changed her story after meeting with Hill's attorney, Janet Napolitano.

Hill dropped one of her claimed witnesses, Linda Lambert Jackson, because she knew Jackson would deny Hill's story.

Did Gore's accuser change jobs to work for Gore?

Mark said...

If this is all true, the stupidity of it boggles the mind.

Machos, the open secret is that Gore's intellect is of the CFL variety (peripherally irritating, dimmer than advertised, and loaded with toxic baggage.)

Mark said...

The Professor is right in asking about the evidence.

And in at least one account I've read, the lady in question kept the garment with the goods.

Thank you, Monica.

Skookum John said...

"Well I have heard that a significant effort was made to go through Sarah Palin's household trash to find something, anything to expose the Truth about ... whatever, something...."

I recall reading that the count came to over 300 reporters and 40 satellite vans that spent the month of September 2008 in Wasilla.

But never mind Sarah Palin, hell, Joe the Plumber got more scrutiny than Al Gore is getting. Way way way more.

And of course, the media heaped shame all over itself with its refusal to explore ANYTHING about Obama's early years. We know more about President Fillmore.

Brad said...

I'm confused.

The word you're looking for, fls, is "stupid."

Jim O said...

You had to remind of of Hoerchner and her mouthpieces, didn't ya?

Remember the Thomas hearings? Here's my recollection.

As Hill's coorroborating withness,she had said that her conversation with Hill about a "boss" that was harassing Hill took place in the springtime. She had a specific recollection of the season because they also talked about their plans for the summer during that same conversation. Oh yeah, she was sure! The springtime. Then, after a break called for by Hill's attorney, she became equally adamant that she could not recall what time of year their little chat took place.

Why? Well maybe it was because Hill didn't start working for Thomas till mid-summer.

Mian said...

So Gore's a creep, is anybody surprised?

Brad said...

Whoa, whoa whoa, slow down. fls is a cretin. Please let him starve.

The Goracle has been caught with his fingers in the till. FLS is of course defending him. He's not even trying to say "Oh, that's terrible if true! But, gee, I don't think its true."

fls has implied "Thomas is completely (of course!) guilty of assault, Gore may (who knows?) be guilty of assault, you all are hypocrites."

The only constant between Clarence Thomas and Al Gore is that fls is a cretin. Nothing will ever change that.

Scott M said...

Tipper left because she was tired of all-hours, sweaty demands to release ManBearPig's second chakra.

gregq said...

No one pays $540 for a non-sexual massage. As I point out on my blog, the Spa associated with the hotel only charges $140 for its most expensive massage. $450 (plus a 20% tip) has that beat by more than 3x.

Gore's admission that he paid that much is pretty much proof that he at least wanted something sexual to happen.

damikesc said...

Seven: "I just do not find it credible that Al Gore does not know how to find an escort properly. If this is all true, the stupidity of it boggles the mind."

If you go with his academic history, Al Gore is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Nothing about him screams "amazing intellect!"

Penny said...

HDHouse said...

"I think....therefore.....I am....."

Descartes was my friend too, hd.

It's a small world.

VERY cool!

Tyrone Slothrop said...

This is how it works:

Since conservatives are for private morality, when they screw around they are hypocrites.

When liberals screw around, they are AOK, because they shun and despise private morality, so they are just being true to themselves.

Get it? Hypocrisy bad. Adultery irrelevant. So Larry Craig puts his foot in the next stall and is evil incarnate, while John Edwards cheats on his (obnoxious) cancer-ridden wife, and is a tad indiscreet.

As my whimsy leads me.. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
As my whimsy leads me.. said...

Crack,

In Ohio, massage therapists are licensed through the State Medical Board. The hospice that I used to work with used a massage therapist for some patients.

By the way, I like the change to the light in you blog background. It's much easier to read. (Not crazy about the icky fuzzy photo, though.)

Toy

Assistant Village Idiot said...

I think it is 99% likely that fls actually noticed the verb-phrase "taken very seriously" in the last paragraph and is trying to subtly (and deceitfully) change the subject. On the low chance that he is actually puzzled/confused, I will explain.

The original post is not a comment on whether Thomas or Gore are guilty or innocent. It is a comment on the way similar evidence has been treated in the MSM in general, and on the left in specific. For those of us who were politically alert for the earlier events, it is a good reminder of how certain that the good liberals we knew were certain that Thomas was guilty, and how important this particular bit of information was in confirming that conclusion. That a similar bit of information now is held of no account is revealing.

A fair criticism by fls would be that some conservatives are indeed also doing the same thing now, with the roles reversed. Unfortunately, bringing that up only highlights the larger number quite consciously not making a rush to judgment. Which would suck to help people notice if you're a liberal.

JAL said...

Couple possibilities on the $540 bill. (I understand there are emails between the LMT and the hotel about it.)

How long was she there?

Perhaps she was billing him for the extra time he kept her there.

Perhaps because he had her come after normal business hours (I believe it was 10:30 at night) so her hourly rate was higher.

Perhaps the emails explain that?

(Maybe it was "Look you guys -- you call me out there at 10:30 at night and then the client keeps me there longer than what was normal and was very demanding ... of course I'm going to charge him double.)

I think he thought he was getting a "masseuse" as in call girl.

The hotel misunderstood his request? {cough}

Bet things are awkward these days at the hotel ... but hey ... you couldn't buy this kind of "free" publicity.

bagoh20 said...

I challenge the lefties to name the serious lowlifes on the conservative side and for the wingnuts to name those on the left. Just see how that comes out.

I'll start with my favorite:

Marion"the bitch set me up." Barry. Who was reelected after his coke and prostitution was caught on tape, and he was convicted. Think about that: reelected by a community devastated by coke and prostitution.

former law student said...

the contemporaneous statement removed any official suspicion that Anita Hill was lying,

Thank you Mr. Stodder. You are a scholar and a gentleman.

In evidence, such contemporaneous statements are called prior consistent statements, and are admissible to support the witness's credibility in the event that the witness's credibility has been attacked.

Chef Mojo said...

Because something is happening here
But you don’t know what it is
Do you, Mister Stone?



wv: winde: Ye olde blowing in the winde...

Tyrone Slothrop said...

@bagoh20

My favorite is the sainted JFK, who was, by any standard, a sex addict. I think in those days the indiscretions of any president, Republican or Democrat, were tacitly ignored by the press, but it is hard to imagine that kind of behavior from a Nixon or an Eisenhower.

Robert Holmgren said...

We've gotta attach 'gate' here. I submit the term Poodlegate.

Kev said...

William said: "You can chortle all you want, but if Gore wasn't able to negotiate these passages, do you think your chances of success will be any greater."

And TRO replied: Hell yeah. Cause I am a better man than him. Simple as that.

Agreed, even if I'm reluctant to call myself a "better man." What I would say is that yes, I think my chances of success are greater because I don't have a puffed-up sense of self, nor do I spend my life trying really hard to influence legislation that would require others to do things I don't even do myself. (OK, maybe that does make me a better man, LOL.)

It almost sounds like William is caught up in celebrity-worship here, as though he's saying "If this famous guy with lots of money can't succeed, what hope is there for little old me?" But sometimes the person's celebrity actually causes the failure, often because their own sense of entitlement blinds them to the possibility that they might get caught doing something wrong.

John Lynch said...

Gore is pro choice. There's your answer.

downtownlad said...

Yes - it was taken incredibly seriously when it was aimed at a conservative. Whatever did happen to that Clarence Thomas fellow?

HDHouse said...

I've been waiting for someone to try and make a lame connection between this and Anita Hill.

Guess I didn't have long to wait.

It is beyond moronic to equate the two - the situations - the history of the acquisitions - the setting - anything.

When she first talked with police she had "no evidence". When she talked to them a few years later they told her to go away. Her next step is to lawyer up and put out a 7 figure "I'll tell all for a million story". Certainly amazing similarities to Judge Thomas and Anita Hill.

What is it Ann? Is Meade still smarting about the Thomas stuff? Or is this just gotcha!Gore musings?

I'm surprised and pretty disappointed.

HT said...

bag oh, do you live in Washington? Such a blanket dismissal of a population says to me that you have no insight into the subtlety of DC politics and how Barry could be appealing to poor people, nor does it reflect knowledge of anything he actually might have done for large portions of the population there. I'm not really trying to justify Barry, he's still on the city council, and constantly brought up on charges for not paying his taxes, and I'm sick of him in a way. But if you ever took the time to, for example, watch the council on the cable channel, a hearing he was chairing, you might be surprised. Again, I wish he would just go away.

As a resident of DC, your blanket dismissal is hard to read because it reflects, or seems to, no real knowledge of politics there.

HT said...

Seven Machos said...

I just do not find it credible that Al Gore does not know how to find an escort properly. If this is all true, the stupidity of it boggles the mind.

6/25/10 4:45 PM
+++

Right.

W., Poppy, Cheney, now they know how to handle these things. Maybe it was just a slip up for Gore.

Mwalimu Daudi said...

It is beyond moronic to equate the two - the situations - the history of the acquisitions - the setting - anything.

Actually, it is beyond moronic to think that you can fast-talk your way out of this one ("I am shocked - shocked! - to think anyone would dare believe this."). As in the case of the pants-down Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton, the lefties are trampling each other to explain why a woman who makes an accusation against a Democrat is automatically disqualified. It ain't working, HDHouse!

It's not the lying by lefties that bothers me anymore. Lying is as natural and necessary to them as breathing. It's the fact that their lies are clumsy, stupid and easy to disprove that irritates me. They really do believe that we are dumber than they are.

At any rate, the Left has some serious misogyny issues to work out in therapy.

HT said...

Oh Daudy.

I am a liberal, and I believe the massage therapist.

Please just stop with the broad strokes.

A.W. said...

HDHouse

Either you are lying, or you haven't bothered to read on it.

The police concluded there was no evidence in 2006 BECAUSE she didn't talk to them. So to say she talked to them back then and they didn't believe her is either lying or proof that you didn't actually read enough to evaluate it.

But as i have said, I don't believe her, i don't disbelieve her. I just don't know. and without proof, al Gore is innocent. But I find it hilarious that you can't deal with the fact that she is not discredited, either.

Quilly_Mammoth said...

I think, despite all my desires otherwise, that I will vote Gore on this. It's just absurd.

Tipper probably had a closet full of enticing undergarments to prompt conjugal relations to begin. I mean, for the love of Pete, they had to airbrush a bigger dick on the dude and it _still_ didn't work.

jr565 said...

bagoh20 wrote:

I'll start with my favorite:

Marion"the bitch set me up." Barry. Who was reelected after his coke and prostitution was caught on tape, and he was convicted. Think about that: reelected by a community devastated by coke and prostitution.


How about Gerry Studds? Talk about a perfect encapsulation of the double standard dems and libs have when its one of their own versus a republican. Mark Foley was ousted from Congress because of emails he sent to young men in the page program. However, (and this is not to excuse him) there is no evidence he actually had sexual encounters with this page or any pages. If he did have sex with them (according to the people who suggest he did) he actually waited till the boys left the program to hit on them and they were all of age at the time.

Gerry Studds, on the other hand had an affair with a page and used it as a pitch for gay and lesbian equality and while he was censured turned his back on those censuring him. He wasn't removed from office and in fact was his parties nominee for his district in the next election and served 5 more terms. He was treated as a hero by many in the media and went on to serve many more years in Congress and even got a cabinet post under Clinton.
People like Barney Frank praising Studds (who died around the time that Mark Foley was embroiled in his controvery) said that he (Studds) didn't let the controversy get in his way:
"“It was very important to see, for young people in particular, somebody as capable and talented as he be openly gay,” said Frank, “That gave a lot people the courage to say, ‘I can survive this business in being honest about who I am.’”
Foley resigned, Studds did not. There was no calls from republicans demanding what the dems knew and asking for the head of the republican party for not doing enough. in fact the head of the democrats at the time, TIp O'Neil didn't even vote on censuring Studds.
Two scandals. One involving actual sex with a page, two completley different responses. It's all dependent on party affiliation.

LarryK said...

Yes, the timeline for Hoerchner's original claim inconsistent with when Hill worked for Thomas, and later modified, and in addition:

1. Hill not only followed Thomas to a new job, but went out of her way to stay in contact with him after their lives diverged e.g. calling to congratulate him on his wedding, inviting him to speak at your law school and driving him back to the airport. Why would you seek out someone who supposedly harassed you for years, when there was little reason or benefit in doing so?

2. Not a single person who worked with both Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill, at the time they worked together, came forward in support of Hill. Dozens came forward to support Thomas and said that what she alleged was inconceivable. If it really happened, there would have been at least one person who was there at the time who would corroborate Hill's story, but nada. That's the strongest evidence against her claims.

Brian said...

Maybe you should spend less time believing the lies of this gold-digging trailer trash and spend more time looking at how Republicans lecture us on sexual morality while all being pig bastards that rape and abuse women and get it covered up by threats and coersion. I have no doubt that without all of the Mafia-like fear being spread by Republicans all over the place, we'd know all about the rapes and sexual abuse they are all guilty of, unlike these false charges against Mr. Gore. It took 4 years for this to come on, which obviously means that the right-wingers were waiting to make sure all of the evidence fidappeared so it would not have to be proven.

Ann Althouse said...

"When she first talked with police she had "no evidence". When she talked to them a few years later they told her to go away. Her next step is to lawyer up and put out a 7 figure "I'll tell all for a million story". Certainly amazing similarities to Judge Thomas and Anita Hill."

Stopping a Supreme Court nominee that you are politically opposed is, indeed, worth a lot. But since you're being sarcastic and mean that there is really a huge difference, I'll agree with that too: It's worth much *more* than a million dollars.

And as for "no evidence," are you old enough to remember when feminists would hate you for saying that the word of the woman was no evidence? At the time of the Anita Hill matter, men who said things like that were told with contempt: "You just don't get it." Then came Lewinsky and everyone forgot. And we know why: It was all always about politics, and people like me who took feminism seriously were left out in the cold. I've never forgotten.

HDHouse said...

Mwalimu Daudi said...
"... the lefties are trampling each other to explain why a woman who makes an accusation against a Democrat is automatically disqualified."

And I am watching the republican ilk trample each other in the race to automatically accept anything said against a Democrat.

Get the point?

HT said...

Is AA equating Monica Lewinsky/Clinton with the alleged assault on a massage therapist?

Ann Althouse said...

"Is AA equating Monica Lewinsky/Clinton with the alleged assault on a massage therapist?"

No. I'm equating the alleged assault on the massage therapist with the alleged assault on Paula Jones, which was at the root of the Lewinsky troubles. Supporters of Clinton suddenly lost interest in everything they'd been saying other people don't understand.