June 15, 2010

It is plain that extreme measures are required to stave off global warming.

"President Barack Obama and his Democratic allies plan a major new push for a broad global warming bill... Obama plans to include a call for an energy bill in his Oval Office address about the Gulf on Tuesday night. And the Obama administration has told key senators that 'an energy deal must include some serious effort to price carbon as a way to slow climate change'..."

You see why this is absolutely necessary, don't you? What if nothing is done and global warming... doesn't happen? What a disaster! But if disastrously extreme measures are taken and then global warming doesn't happen? What a great relief! It will be impossible to tell whether the solution worked or whether global warming just wasn't going to happen anyway. Win-win!

218 comments:

1 – 200 of 218   Newer›   Newest»
MadisonMan said...

If there's nothing in the bill to promote Nuclear Energy, then the bill is just farcical window dressing.

Freeman Hunt said...

Good Lord. Leave us alone, Obama.

Fen said...

RICO for all of them.

Then banishment to Gaza.

Trooper York said...

Does this mean after he is finsihed as President, Obama is going to divorce Michelle and marry Jada Pinkett Smith?

Freeman Hunt said...

Does Obama ever wake up in the morning NOT thinking that he has a plan for the rest of us? Does he ever wake up and just think about his own life, maybe friends or sport?

It seems like every day in the life of Obama is a day for him to plan out the lives of us plebes.

mesquito said...

Here comes the Obama-Waxman-Gore-DiCaprio Warm House, Personal Transportaion, Illumination, Refrigeration and Hot Meals Tax

Pogo said...

True, Freeman.

We must make you slaves so all can be free!

garage mahal said...

The world is going to end and we're all going to die!.........if we don't do something now!.......to stop global warming..... preventative measures!

J Scott said...

Same logic with the stimulus, that's why they had to pass it so quickly.

If they didn't pass anything and the economy got better on it's own, the stimulus would have been worthless and Krugman and Reich wouldn't be able to play their sad violins and say the stimulus was too small.

Reality based.

edutcher said...

Never let a good crisis go to waste - and, if it isn't one yet, throw enough malign neglect at it until it becomes one.

Ann Althouse said...

And the Obama administration has told key senators that 'an energy deal must include some serious effort to price carbon as a way to slow climate change'..."

And to those of you who weren't interested two years ago when the video of him advocating $8 a gallon gasoline was making the rounds...

I'll bet you're interested now.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

never let a crisis go to waste.

AllenS said...

I agree with garage. I think.

kcom said...

It's plain that extreme measures are needed to stave off Obama. So far, we're doing better than I expected.

traditionalguy said...

This win, win for Pelosi and Obama is a permanent lose, lose for every American not under the spout where the Wind-mill money comes out. This abominable non science fraud will also lose every last drop of confidence that foreign investors have in a safe American fiscal system to invest their money in. Acting on lies, as obvious as this one is, as our permanent policy will surely result in complete loss of faith in our country all over the world. That will make the Muslim's integrity look good next to an American Government's system of looting money using a hoax.

Dead Julius said...

From the linked piece, sans the annoying javascript appendage:

“[I]n the same way that our view of our vulnerabilities and our foreign policy was shaped profoundly by 9/11, indelibly by 9/11,” Obama said. “I think this disaster is going to shape how we think about the environment and energy for many years to come."

9/11! 9/11! 9/11!

Thank you, you establishment Republicans! You gave the administration a 9/11 trump card that it can use whenever it wants.

Israel is in hot conflict; Iran is building nukes and verbally threatening its existence; North Korea has nukes and leadership that would give Commodous a run for his money...

Is Obama attending to those pressing issues, and to the oil that is still spilling, as the first priority? No, sadly no. Let's throw 9/11 out there and put some James Taylor on and get back to the fantastic liberal plan of remaking the world in our green image.

9/11! 9/11! 9/11!

Richard Dolan said...

Never let a crisis go to waste. It's the Chicago way.

Think back to his big speech to a joint session of Congress in Feb 2009, supposedly about the recession and rising unemployment. His solution then: universal health care, gov't control of energy markets, and more money for education (i.e. teacher's unions).

Note that he got two out of three (sort of): ObamaCare and the $780 billion stimulus, a huge chunk of which went to the states to pay off the SEIU, NEA and friends.

He's still looking for his trifecta.

rhhardin said...

The Obama verbal construction tic:

1. A lie.

2. "And that's why"

3. A bad idea.

Quayle said...

A new statistical category: planets created or saved.

Paul said that in the last days people would have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

It strikes me that offering "salvation" could quality as having a form of godliness.

Pogo said...

Obama has an uncanny ability to do what doesn't need doing, and forever avoiding those tasks most pressing.

Shit!
He's a high school freshman!

mesquito said...

Evidently Our President thinks raising tasxes will plug the damn hole.

Pogo said...

Why can't he plug it with Al Gore?

Win-win!

Jeremy said...

The Queen - "You see why this is absolutely necessary, don't you? What if nothing is done and global warming... doesn't happen? What a disaster! But if disastrously extreme measures are taken and then global warming doesn't happen? What a great relief!"

And yet another tea bagging denier rears her uninformed wing nut head.

Eric said...

I think he realizes anything that doesn't pass by November isn't going to pass. NPR has Republicans up over Democrats on the generic ballot by eight points, the most lopsided in that direction it has ever been.

Old Dad said...

Looks like the One is doubling down--let's see, the economy is in the crapper, the stimulus failed, his poll numbers are going down faster than Laurie David, he botched the BP mess--Eureka--let's try to shove another prohibitively expensive clusterfest of a climate bill that no will read right up the collective keister of the American people.

Genius that.

Leland said...

Texas is leading in renewable energy in the United States. No carbon tax necessary. Only reason for carbon tax is to finance affairs in Davos.

Freeman Hunt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kcom said...

What happened to my cliché-o-meter? There was a loud snap and the dial just cracked. And the Ad Hominem gauge pegged out and won't go back to normal? Did anyone see anything?

miller said...

Bambi misses the days when he could just say FIAT LUX and be done with it.

HDHouse said...

I'm surprised actually. With the red meat of science to chew on, the ultra-recht here shows up toothless.

You fellas are a laugh riot of ignorance and scientific waste. Tell ya' what. Find on bright bulb among you and he will be the one we try and teach..pick your smartest guy or gal...then we will go slow with him/her and see if some knowledge can seep into what appears now to be a wall of blockheads.

No wonder the world laughs at our common man's level of basic science.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Calling for an energy bill to be passed is "extreme" now?

I think you'll get your wish and one day Obama, terrible Obama, will be gone. And then, do you have any proposals whatsoever for the governance of the country or to address any of the problems that the country might have?

There is no problem with energy in this country? Oil consumption, regulation all hunky dory?

Old Dad said...

Kcom is on to something here--how to stave off Obama? We need Obama boom. It's clear that the emergency relief wells won't be finished until November. In the meantime, we've got to do a Jindal--deploy all the Obama boom you can and build those barrier islands.

miller said...

Let's go outside and I'll point out the fiery ball of gas a mere 93 million miles away. That might be affecting the temperature a bit.

Dead Julius said...

You fellas are a laugh riot of ignorance and scientific waste. Tell ya' what. Find on bright bulb among you and he will be the one we try and teach..pick your smartest guy or gal...then we will go slow with him/her and see if some knowledge can seep into what appears now to be a wall of blockheads.

No wonder the world laughs at our common man's level of basic science.


If you really believe in that sort of elitism, then there really isn't any room left for democracy, is there?

garage mahal said...

Calling for an energy bill to be passed is "extreme" now?

What's funny is that cap and trade was a Republican idea. Now it's a "disastrously extreme measure", according to Althouse. From 1990 to 2008, acid rain emissions dropped in half, from Bush I did from the Clean Air Act amendments.

Fred4Pres said...

There is no reasoning with these "true believers."

No, I do not mean Christian(ist)s, I mean Liberals in the Obama Administration.

rhhardin said...

The actual common sense position against AGW is that it's unlikely that the earth, after aeons of huge changes and cycles, has suddenly developed an instability.

Since they can't solve the relevant physics equations (the Navier Stokes equations, at bottom), climate modellers pull an equation out of their asses that they can solve, and solve that instead.

Here the theory of evolution kicks in (we believe in evolution, right?): those models that predict doom get funding, and those that don't predict doom don't get funding but wind up in the punched card recycle bin and are not heard from again. So we get a population of doom-predicting models, which, for all their busy proponents, are based on climate hand-waving and curve-fitting.

Bayesian statistics strongly favor the evolution theory over the runaway instability theory, by several million to one. This aligns, unsurprisingly, with common sense.

Incidentally, mathematical fact, you can't tell a trend from a cycle with an amount of data that's short compared to the cycle; the point of the hockey stick was to get around that by showing explosive growth, but the hockey stick has met its demise in data hacking. So there's zero, zilch, evidence that if the earth is warming, that it's not a normal cycle.

And if a cycle, it can't be man-caused.

Politicians would like the control and the money, however. This is where lies come in, followed by bad ideas.

Craig said...

Once it's passed, Obama will always be able to say that a stable climate was saved or created.

miller said...

There's always an element that believes the snake oil claims.

Unfortunately, too many of them vote.

Big Mike said...

@garage, I had to read what you posted three or four times.

If you didn't mean your 5:24 post to be take as sarcasm, that would be the garage we all know and love. Well, know, anyway. And not in the Biblical sense.

But maybe there's hope for you.

knox said...

Well, not surprising. They *have* to try to pass it before November ... this is their last chance.

It is clear now that the administration's plan from the beginning was to shove through as much Big Government legislation and takeovers as possible, while they had their majority in the first two years ... however expensive, however unpopular those policies might be.

Then, to add insult to injury, they're all chickening out of the Townhalls. Disgusting.

Old Dad said...

HD,

I'd call you a sanctimonious twit, but I have too much respect for twits.

Shorter HD: Madly waves hands--"Pay no attention to our scientificaly illiterate CIC. The Army Corpse of Engineers has all 57 states well in hand. All is well. Oh, and I'll scientifically kick your asses once my Ivy League experts tell which ones."

Montagne Montaigne said...

If you don't believe in AGW, can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad? Do you have to impute ridiculous, half-assed nefarious motives to it? Can someone go over why the LIBRULS and OBAMA want to destroy capitalism with a carbon tax? Who gains from that precisely? How does Obama make money off of it?

Blue@9 said...

Does Obama ever wake up in the morning NOT thinking that he has a plan for the rest of us? Does he ever wake up and just think about his own life, maybe friends or sport?

Well, duh. Two words: Golf. Basketball.

Jeremy said...

Freeman Hunt - Actually it's 1,000's of scientists who are saying we need to do something. The president is merely passing along the message...even to those of you who apparently never read anything before spouting off with the usual tea bagger drivel.

Maybe if you did read more and listened to Glenn Beck and Rush less...?

TRO said...

'Good Lord. Leave us alone, Obama."

Not sure if this makes me a conspiracy theorist or not but I swear to God this man is trying to destroy this country. Mammoth debt, a crashing economy, no jobs to be found, and this moron wants to pass a bill that will only make all three of those things worse in order to stop something that doesn't even fucking exist?

He's like the Socialist Energizer Bunny from Hell.

Joe said...


What's funny is that cap and trade was a Republican idea


A BAD Republican idea...you seem to believe that if something has a GOP provenance, then it must be inarguably correct or supported by the Right in this nation?

McCain-Feingold...BAD idea....
McCain-Kennedy...BAD idea...
Harriet Miers...BAD idea...
Kerry-Lieberman-Graham...BAD idea...

And this is from somone who generally pulls the "Party Lever" every November there's an election.

But using your "logic" I'm glad you've come around to Tax Cuts for all, School Vouchers and support for the War in Iraq...ALSO GOP ideas. Or is it just ideas that LIBERALS like that have GOP origin you like?

HDHouse, so you're just going to stick your head in the sand or is it more Orwellian, those e-mails NEVER leaked...There is NO evidence of fraud...there is LOTS of evidence for warming (though it has been deleted)

Eric said...

What's funny is that cap and trade was a Republican idea. Now it's a "disastrously extreme measure", according to Althouse.

It's true. I was one of the early supporters of cap and trade, but have since soured on it.

The original idea was revenue neutral. It was supposed to be a way of rationalizing the externalities of fossil fuels, not a way to slip in a massive tax increase. But Obama was flogging this last year because it was the only way he could come up with to pay for health care.

The other problem is you can't actually implement a scheme like this without adding another huge layer of government bureaucracy. Forget the cost of the carbon permits - the cost of regulatory compliance will be enormous.

Big Mike said...

@Monty, of course there are energy problems in this country. But will Obama and his cronies in Congress and on Wall Street make things better? Or make them worse?

After seeing the results of the stimulus plan, which only the hard core economic illiterates continue to think stimulated anything at all, the sane bet is on the latter, not the former.

Sigivald said...

I can't tell - is Jeremy serious, or mocking a notional person seriously holding those views?

Garage: Did Althouse support it when it was a Republican idea? (And did Republicans present it in a vacuum, or as an alternative to something even worse?)

And what does acid rain have to do with "climate change"?

Acid rain was undeniably and easily demonstrated, rather than "maybe if our models are right in a hundred years it'll be 1.6 degrees hotter and that might be bad".

Oh, and several orders of magnitude cheaper to combat.

MadisonMan said...

Since they can't solve the relevant physics equations (the Navier Stokes equations, at bottom),

Climate models do solve the Navier-Stokes equation. The difficulties come in approximating some of the forcing terms on the right hand side. (To put it mildly).

So there's zero, zilch, evidence that if the earth is warming, that it's not a normal cycle.

As I recall, from a seminar given here a year or so ago, it will take 60-100 years to determine whether or not recent increases in Atlantic Hurricane activity aren't an upwards trend in a cycle, but rather a baseline change.

Big Mike said...

@Jeremy, no, it's thousands of scientists risking their careers to say the opposite -- that the computer model used to justify extreme measures to counter global warming is broken.

miller said...

"As I recall, from a seminar given here a year or so ago, it will take 60-100 years to determine whether or not recent increases in Atlantic Hurricane activity aren't an upwards trend in a cycle, but rather a baseline change. "

I'll wait then.

MadisonMan said...

And by the way, of course there's a crisis. An election is coming. Nothing like a crisis to juice up your base.

The Drill SGT said...

MM said.... If there's nothing in the bill to promote Nuclear Energy, then the bill is just farcical window dressing.

HDhoue said...You fellas are a laugh riot of ignorance and scientific waste.

MM said it best. Nukes are the only non-carbon energy source that is industrial strength.

Why?

power grids are all about base load. The mimimum load that is on the system 24/7. Something dependable has to be able to supply that load, 24/7/365. Then on top of that you have standby surge capacity, normally NG or out west Hydro, that you can turn on and off as needed.

Nuke is not efficent for surge, but is great for base load.

Neither Wind nor solar is dependable enough to supply serious base load bower nor is it available enough for the surge needs.

Wind and solar won't be useful, (and we arent even talking about the fact that they arent cost effective) until Chu and the lads at NREL and NETL invent a energy mass storage technology.

Want to talk about science and the problem HD? Beyond solar/wind's cost problem, you cant depend on them, and there is no cost effective, energy conserving mass storage device. Today, The best method, at 30% efficency is to use solar power to pump water uphill behind a Dam, so that when the sun don't shine, you can let it run down again thru a turbine.

Bottom line: This is another created crisis that Obama wants to use to rush the country down a path that will be hard to recover from.

Joe said...

Well Monty as ALGore stands to become the first Carbon Billionaire if Capn'Trade passes you'll understand that I am a bit suspicious of his altruism...

And so that's your argument, their motives are pure...so the Ukrainian Famine, the Purges, the Show Trials, Pol Pot, the Great Leap Forward, the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution...all good because the perpetrators had pure motives? Salem Witch Trials, all kewl...they had pure motives?

Come on dood/doodette try a little harder.

Dead Julius said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dead Julius said...

MM said...

Who gains from that precisely? How does Obama make money off of it?

After he scuttled the plans to re-invade Brittania because it was going to be too difficult, the Emperor Caligula was caught in a bind.

The people of Rome expected a show... the Emperor was going to need a celebratory triumph to retain their support.

So Caligula declared war on Neptune-- that's Poseidon to all you Percy Jackson fanboys. He had his army wade into the English Channel and collect seashells; these would be his "spoils of war".

Then he dressed up some semi-friendly Gauls as conquered Germanic enemies, and paraded them along with Neptune's booty in front of people.

Almost two thousand years later and we're back to the "extreme measures" of fighting Neptune.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Joel Benenson, a pollster for the Democratic National Committee and Obama’s presidential campaign, argues in a new briefing for top Capitol Hill officials that a comprehensive energy bill “could give Democrats a potent weapon to wield against Republicans in the fall.”

Anyone else thinking of the ACME Disintegrating Pistol?

rhhardin said...

@mm Climate models do solve the Navier-Stokes equation. The difficulties come in approximating some of the forcing terms on the right hand side.

Nobody comes close to solving the Navier Stokes equations in even simpified form over the globe. 3-D flows go to shorter scales and cannot be followed at any grid spacing whatsover.

On top of that, there are oceans with their completely unknown flows and boundary conditions, not only air with its mixed chemistry, that must be followed too.

It's so far out of the range of possibility that nobody seriously imagines trying it.

Or they do as a graduate student and become instantly wiser after doing a couple of small numerical experiments.

The forcing terms aren't the immediate problem with NS.

The pseudoscience problem is that modellers don't recognize when they're doing curve fitting, having left physics far behind. Agreement with data becomes meaningless once you have enough degrees of freedom in anything at all.

Methadras said...

Jeremy said...

And yet another tea bagging denier rears her uninformed wing nut head.


Another malformed inbred dead-bolt makes accusations of GW denial. Hey, dead-bolt, the world doesn't need to be saved. Furthermore, it doesn't need to be saved by the Mulatto-In-Chief. President Barely makes wonderful pontifications on things he thinks he knows, but you just embarrass yourself and your ideology even more when you start calling people deniers who simply don't embrace your Gaiaist nonsense. You are the gnat on the ass of life.

Big Mike said...

If you don't believe in AGW, can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad?

It's not a question of decency. It's a question of what's right. When one side refuses to permit debate, it's fair to presume that they know that they lose.

Here's a gedanken experiment for you. What if global warming was a net benefit for mankind? How can you be certain that it isn't?

Do you have to impute ridiculous, half-assed nefarious motives to it?

It's not a question of imputing motives. If "they" are doing it for motives that are ridiculous, half-assed and nefarious, or because they are merely stupid, it's still wrong.

Can someone go over why the LIBRULS and OBAMA want to destroy capitalism with a carbon tax? Who gains from that precisely?

They get the power to pick and choose the winners and losers in American society, and I don't care to entrust them with that power. Richard Daley may make it work in Chicago, but people who don't want to play his games can always move to the suburbs or out of state. Leaving America for a place

How does Obama make money off of it?

He doesn't, at least not directly. His cronies on Wall Street make gazillions (even as he excoriates them) and they take care of him later.

Big Mike said...

Sorry. Should have read "America for a place with more economic freedom is pretty hard."

hawkeyedjb said...

"Calling for an energy bill to be passed is "extreme" now?"

An energy bill would be nice. What's proposed instead is (another) tax bill. A big one.

"Do you have any proposals whatsoever for the governance of the country or to address any of the problems that the country might have?"

Yes. Leave me the fuck alone.

Michael said...

Montaigne: Here's an idea. A ten dollar a gallon tax on gasoline and a one thousand dollar a year fee to use the roads. Five hundred dollar fines to those who have no permit, with the auto confiscated after the second ticket. Gas price to be raised ten percent per year until the per gallon price is 20 at which time the price is fixed.

I can live with this approach and think it would raise bicycle usage almost immediately. Less traffic, bluer skies, great work for the "planners" who want to put toy trains going every which way.

I don't see any reason why a draconian proposal such as this would be inappropriate for a draconian problem such as AGW. I would be all in with this program as it would reduce my already short commute to next to nothing.

Poor people clutter up the roads and generally drive suspiciously carbon positive vehicles.

The nice thing about this approach is that all the peoples get to help save the earth, not just "the rich."

Methadras said...

Montagne Montaigne said...

Calling for an energy bill to be passed is "extreme" now?

I think you'll get your wish and one day Obama, terrible Obama, will be gone. And then, do you have any proposals whatsoever for the governance of the country or to address any of the problems that the country might have?

There is no problem with energy in this country? Oil consumption, regulation all hunky dory?


[sigh] Another dead-bolt adorns the commentariat with his witless attempts at snark. I have a plan in hand right now that illicits an energy plan for this country that will keep it at the forefront of generation and consumption.

1. Re-examine the NRC guidelines to account for new reactor types.

2. Once that's completed and sanctioned, begin the process of accepting applications from states, cities, municipalities to begin the transition to build new plants.

3. Begin building large amounts of MSR (molten salt reactors) that serve a dual purpose. The first being able to co-generate/store energy and the second being able to consume used/spent nuclear fuel.

You could literally build a business on emptying out Yucca Valley on MSR's alone.

4. Work with generation companies to help them rebuild their infrastructure as a function of accepting new NPP's at reduced costs, reduced permiting, and reduced time for approvals.

5. Begin a parallel/phased transition to a hydrogen infrastructure that can be co-generated by the dual use purposes of creating said hydrogen fuel at NPP's.

There is so much one can do if you actually put your mind to it without the dead-bolt mentality that block heads like you employ.

Dead Julius said...

MadisonMan said...

Climate models do solve the Navier-Stokes equation.

Do our administration's climate "experts" really believe this?

And do they think that an equation for the instantaneous dynamics of fluids provides an answer to the question of long-term climate change?

If so, we are all fucked.

HDHouse said...

Wow the rightwing is touchy tonight. .. but they have a history of being deathly afraid of things they don't understand.

You children do realize of course that you are in the minority don't you?

Michael said...

I just heard that the pres is going to get us some great green jobs. Like Spain. Splendid idea going green what with the wind and the rain being just outside our doors absolutely free for us all. Like Spain we can get free of foreign oil and create, create!!, jobs in the greenish style. The president is going to get the government to create, create, green jobs. What a man.

Scott said...

Calling someone an AGW "denier" is an oblique reference to the nutjobs that deny the Holocaust.

That comparison is unusually vile, even for you Jeremy.

Methadras said...

Montagne Montaigne said...

If you don't believe in AGW, can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad?


Ignorance is bliss for you, no? Considering that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere alone only constitutes .036% that makes it a trace gas. Then the question that begs asking is, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TRYING TO PREVENT? What I fail to see is any legislation on atmospheric water vapor mitigation. Ooops, can't make that happen can we unless you visqueen the entirety of all the oceans.

Do you have to impute ridiculous, half-assed nefarious motives to it? Can someone go over why the LIBRULS and OBAMA want to destroy capitalism with a carbon tax? Who gains from that precisely? How does Obama make money off of it?

They aren't nefarious because they are right out in the open about what they are trying to do. What in essence is happening is that this type of alarmist, chicken little legislation does is cost shift or lack of a better phrase, redistribute wealth as a method of further taxation from those who produce to those who don't. Namely government and as a function of further government control, but in this case of nearly everything you do and consume. It's the near perfect bureaucratic legislation at it's finest. Anything short of a dictatorial, Chavez style, socialist take-over of nearly all industry in the country basically trumps legislation like this.

This is a simplistic explanation because for you, anything more heady than this, you just don't have the brain power to process.

happy tic said...

Ann,
your exact logical explanation is put forth in a widely circulated video---in fact the video with the highest views that is found with the search YouTube for "global warming explanation".

It's called "The most terrifying video you'll ever see", and I have to agree, albeit for different reasons that the video maker was probably thinking...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ

TRO said...

"If you don't believe in AGW, can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad?"

I'm supposed to believe that Gore, Barry, Nancy, and Harry sincerely believe in AGW? Please, all they believe in is power and this is just another way to gain it.

"You children do realize of course that you are in the minority don't you?"

Checked out the polls lately? The majority are dubious at best and certainly do not want to crash our economy over it.

AC245 said...

Wow the rightwing is touchy tonight. .. but they have a history of being deathly afraid of things they don't understand.

HDHouse, in a comparison between the airy, content-free, fact-free bloviations posted by you, MM, and Jeremy in this thread and the observations offered by, say, rhhardin, The Drill SGT, and Big Mike, it is certainly not the rightwing, that comes across as touchy, or deathly afraid, or as the ones who don't understand the issues and the science involved.

The Drill SGT said...

The president is going to get the government to create, create, green jobs. What a man.

Pfiffle:)

I want to see him turn water into wine or begin to heal the Earth.

Methadras said...

HDHouse said...

Wow the rightwing is touchy tonight. .. but they have a history of being deathly afraid of things they don't understand.

You children do realize of course that you are in the minority don't you?


Seriously, you crusty geriatric fuck, you have zero to contribute of anything of value in a discussion like this. Go away and let the adults actually carry on a conversation.

The Drill SGT said...

Methadras said...
5. Begin a parallel/phased transition to a hydrogen infrastructure that can be co-generated by the dual use purposes of creating said hydrogen fuel at NPP's.


well I guess hydrogen is something you could make using solar or wind. :)

The nukes? I'd keep them working base load.

c3 said...

I will listen to no other "plans" until you
plug the damn hole

garage mahal said...

If you didn't mean your 5:24 post to be take as sarcasm, that would be the garage we all know and love. Well, know, anyway. And not in the Biblical sense.<

Of course. Global warming deniers are every bit, if not more funny, than global warming alarmists. Covert scientist temperature manipulated global conspiracies, kooky life controlling One World order stories..... I thought conservatives believe in market based solutions to clean up the environment, which cap and trade is. Knowing we cut acid rain emissions in half from cap and trade 20 yrs ago from what Bush I did, aren't you glad we did it? Or would you rather be breathing 8 million tons of additional sulfur dioxide every year and having it rained down on you? Did it drive all those companies out of business from capping those emissions?

david7134 said...

How about this, since we are so into selective taxes for people, lets inact a tax on the celebrities and liberals? The tax would be used to combat global warming. In other words, put your money where your mouth is. I wonder how long the concept of AGW would last?

Larry J said...

Looks like the AGW kool-aid drinkers are showing up just as the science is looking most dubious. How does it feel to be such a chump?

Oh, I may not be a "climate scientist" but I am a professional computer programmer. The "Harry Read Me" file leaked with the ClimateGate emails is enough to completely and permanently discredit the climate modelers' programming efforts. That part is irrefutable. You can try to spin the emails but you can't spin the code.

dix said...

"It will be impossible to tell whether the solution worked or whether global warming just wasn't going to happen anyway. Win-win!"

It's Y2K all over again

WV meadys. I'm not kidding

The Crack Emcee said...

OH, JEREMY,...DO YOU LIKE SCIENCE?

The world's greatest NewAge plot is finally coming to America, featuring all of it's elements:

Environmentalism - it's roots in Paganism.

Quackery - the expensive, but worthless, "cure" for the paranoid "worried well".

Scam - let's (maybe) fix something that we won't know the results of until long after we're gone.

Pseudoscience - because of the subject's supposed complexity, none of it has to add up.

Fascism - no matter all of that, you will bow down.

They must be stopped.

El Pollo Real said...

Althouse wrote: You see why this is absolutely necessary, don't you? What if nothing is done and global warming... doesn't happen? What a disaster! But if disastrously extreme measures are taken and then global warming doesn't happen? What a great relief! It will be impossible to tell whether the solution worked or whether global warming just wasn't going to happen anyway. Win-win!

I'm reposting part of a comment I made last October here which I think makes exactly that same point.

3) What really bothers me as a sceptic of the CO2 causes warming is that if the Copenhagen treaty is ratified and enforced, and warming does not occur, credit will be taken regardless of the true cause. To me this is a heads I win tails you lose proposition for the CO2 causes warming folks. But more insidiously, it is the exact mechanism by which Science could ascend to the status of a quasi-religion: give the people "miracle, mystery and authority" and they will follow.

Big Mike said...

@garage. Oh, dear. You turn out to be as foolish as I thought you were.

knox said...

Global warming deniers are every bit, if not more funny, than global warming alarmists.

Garage used the word "alarmists"! He's coming around!

stutefish said...

HDHouse: Wow the rightwing is touchy tonight. .. but they have a history of being deathly afraid of things they don't understand.

And yet we're not the ones going all Chicken Little over the global climate system.

Tell us: are you claiming to be deathly afraid of the global climate system because you actually understand it?

wv: granotes - much better than the newfangled otes enjoyed by kids these days

Methadras said...

The Drill SGT said...

well I guess hydrogen is something you could make using solar or wind. :)

The nukes? I'd keep them working base load.


You could use solar/wind to do that. However, the intrinsic inefficiencies of say wind alone would make that a total net loser. Solar is getting better, but until a truly full spectrum PV in the 70%+ range is created, then you still have a better net loser. However, considering the toxic nature of creating PV's overall, I don't think most envirokooks would go for it.

Besides, most envirokooks don't have a clue on what it takes to get things made and how things are actually made and with the processes and materials required to make them would make them shudder in Gaiaist rage.

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

Of course. Global warming deniers are every bit, if not more funny, than global warming alarmists. Covert scientist temperature manipulated global conspiracies, kooky life controlling One World order stories..... I thought conservatives believe in market based solutions to clean up the environment, which cap and trade is. Knowing we cut acid rain emissions in half from cap and trade 20 yrs ago from what Bush I did, aren't you glad we did it? Or would you rather be breathing 8 million tons of additional sulfur dioxide every year and having it rained down on you? Did it drive all those companies out of business from capping those emissions?


I read this disastrous piece of textual offal and the first thought that came into my mind was how spectacularly stupid you really are and then the second thought was why touchdown Jesus got hit by lightning and not you. Now I know why dunce cap companies still stay in business and it's because you are their biggest customer. You are a moron. A real, honest to goodness retard moron.

mesquito said...

True story: An oil executive and a Sierra Club lobbyists have been haggling during backroom negotiations in Washington. During a break they shoot the breeze. Sierra Club says, "Our long term goal, of course, is to ban the use of fossil fuels."

Oil company exec: "And replace them with what?"

Sierra Club lobbyist: "That's your problem."

traditionalguy said...

Garage....Why would an honest man compare scrubbers of sulfer dioxide emissions on coal electrical generation plants in the 1980s to minescule and meaningless CO2 emissions from thousands of accused sources. Did you recieve Grant money too? It is a huge hoax trying to be resurrected by pretend stories like yours. Take some responsability and admit that it was all a hoax, and be like most tacit warmist scientists that are suddenly going back and covering their tracks now.

The Drill SGT said...

Methadras said...
You could use solar/wind to do that. However, the intrinsic inefficiencies of say wind alone would make that a total net loser.


Hehe, I dodn't say it was a good idea, just better than trying to turn off coal plants and run through a California mid-summer heat wave on wind :)

the ecomonics of both wind/solar suck. My point was the H2 was a potential energy storage medium.

Joe said...

can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad?

No. I doubt there are more than two dozen members of congress that understand any science, let alone atmospheric science. They certainly don't understand basic economics and struggle with the plain meaning of the US Constitution.

This isn't about science; it's about power and congress seeing a new revenue stream to satisfy their insatiable lust for spending.

John said...

We have 120 or so years of temperature observations on which the concept of global warming is based. I've looked at how these temps are measured and recorded and would not trust them to within +/- 2 degrees or so.

Problems affecting accuracy and/or precision include:

1) Almost all sites have been moved at least once, many multiple times, over the years. Even movements of a few hundred feet can make big changes to temperatures at the station.

2) The majority of stations have not been in continuous existence. Some have been dropped, others added. See comment in #1 above.

3)Different arithmetical methods of calculating the average temperature at a station have been used for different stations and even for the same station at different times. For example, averaging the max and min temp will give a different result from averaging 24 hourly readings. While the two methods will yield similar results, they will not be identical.

4) Many readings have relied on an untrained person looking at a thermometer that reads in 2 degree increments and noting the temp. They may do this at varying times, they may not read it closely. Or, they may read it at all, simply writing in a number that looks right.

5) Sites that were correctly located 50 years ago are now in the middle of parking lots, under AC exhausts and other heat sources

6) There are more reasons for inaccuracy, just ask if you want me to go on.

The end result is that the data is not accurate to more than 2 degrees or so.

From this the "scientists", who we are now finding may not really exist claim that they can detect a temperature rise of less than 0.001 degrees/yr or about 0.8 degrees over more than 100 years.

I call BS. If the data is only accurate to +/- 2 degrees or so, we don't have any idea whether temps are going up or down.

There may be global warming. But based on the data that IPCC works from, it is just as likely there is global cooling.

There is just no way to ever know.

John Henry

Bruce Hayden said...

The end result is that the data is not accurate to more than 2 degrees or so.

I am not sure if it is even that close. And what is really scary, is that the "scientists" involved probably don't either. At least 4 of the 5 primary climatic data bases are suspect due to the CRU problems. The scientists involved don't appear to be able to replicate their databases based on the raw temperature data (which is, as you point out, often fairly inaccurate). Part of that inability to replicate appears to be that when temperate data was "cleaned up", the reason for the adjustments made, the selection of which raw data to use, how to adjust it, etc., has apparently been lost. What we do know is that some of those adjustments, interpolations, etc. just don't make sense, at least not yet.

Bruce Hayden said...

There may be global warming. But based on the data that IPCC works from, it is just as likely there is global cooling.

There is just no way to ever know
.

What is a bit scary is that the same "scientists" who were caught red handed over the last year fudging data, manipulating the peer review process, etc., were key players in the IPCC reports, AND, it turns out that much of the IPCC material was not peer reviewed (even if you assumed that that was some sort of guarantee of accuracy, which we can't in this case). Indeed, much was apparently the work of climatic advocacy groups.

If that doesn't scare you, it turns out that the EPA has used the fatally flawed IPCC reports to justify regulation of CO2. Because of the supposed urgency of AGW, they didn't do any of their own research, as was required by law, but primarily depended on the politically controlled and managed IPCC reports.

Methadras said...

Bruce Hayden said...

The end result is that the data is not accurate to more than 2 degrees or so.

I am not sure if it is even that close. And what is really scary, is that the "scientists" involved probably don't either. At least 4 of the 5 primary climatic data bases are suspect due to the CRU problems. The scientists involved don't appear to be able to replicate their databases based on the raw temperature data (which is, as you point out, often fairly inaccurate). Part of that inability to replicate appears to be that when temperate data was "cleaned up", the reason for the adjustments made, the selection of which raw data to use, how to adjust it, etc., has apparently been lost. What we do know is that some of those adjustments, interpolations, etc. just don't make sense, at least not yet.


In short, basic science wasn't even observed. The conclusions from that alone are self-fulfilling.

The Drill SGT said...

In short, basic science wasn't even observed. The conclusions from that alone are self-fulfilling.

The problem is not really the bad basic science so much as bad basic math. Those guys were what passes for Climate scientists. What they were NOT is statisticians. Nor scientific programmers. They made fundemental errors in the statistics, the sampling, the data scrubbing, the corrections and even violated the most basic rules that when you combine measurements with varying degrees of accuracy, the result must be considered to carry the accuracy of the worst input.

MadisonMan said...

it is just as likely there is global cooling.

Based on what observations?

Lake ice seasons are shorter, Glaciers are shrinking, sea ice is shrinking. How are these observations consistent with global cooling?

John said...

Bruce,

I am not sure it is as close as +/-2 degrees either. I am confident that it is no closer than that and may be much worse.

NOAA classifies temperature stations in the US 1-5. depending on the amount extraneous heat they get from sun, parking lots, other heat sources. A class 5 may read as much as 5 deg more than the real temperature. Class 4 is, IIRC, +3deg, Class 3+2 deg and class 2 +1 degree. (I'm going from memory but can provide the NOAA link if asked)

Only something like 10-15% of all US stations are rated, by NOAA, as class 2 or better.

FWIW: I am personally responsible for some of the bad sea temperature data. Much of the sea temp data comes from Navy logbooks. As a messenger of the watch back in the day I would be the one to take the incoming seawater temp at the main condenser. The thermometer read in 2 degree increments. It was not calibrated, AFAIK, while I was on the ship. When I read it, I didn't take any great pains to do so precisely. We were mainly interested in whether the water was warm or cool as it had an effect on how the turbines ran.

I would say +/- 2 to 4 degree accuracy but I would not guarantee it.

Statute of limitations having passed, I can also confess that sometimes I did not even take the hourly readings. I would simply repeat the last hour's reading with a bit of variation to make it look authentic.

As for glaciers, sea ice and so on, yes, some of it is melting. But some of it is increasing. Seems like normal variation to me.

So, yeah. I stand by my statement that there is as much evidence of global cooling as warming. I don't think it is possible to have any idea whether either is taking place. Certainly not from the data.

I would also question the entire concept of a single global temperature such as global warming relies on. But that is a whole 'nother discussion.

I'll be happy to have it if anyone is interested.

John Henry

AlphaLiberal said...

Althouse, why don't you just say where you think the science of global warming falls short?

It's not in doubt. It's happening. The fossil fuel lobby is fighting back fiercely, but we need to take action.

AlphaLiberal said...

C3:

I will listen to no other "plans" until you
plug the damn hole


Ha ha. How, exactly? DO you think it can be done because you want it done?

The way to stop the leak was to regulate the oil industry. But Bush and Cheney gutted the regulations, their regulatory staff had sex and drug parties, and they rushed permitting.

This is the BP/Bush oil spill.

Revenant said...

If you don't believe in AGW, can't you at least be decent enough to allow that the policy makers who want to restrict carbon emissions are doing so out of a sincere belief that it will prevent something bad?

If the people in question honestly do believe that it is necessary to lower carbon emissions to prevent something bad, why do they knowingly produce vastly more carbon emissions than normal Americans?

As I see it there are two explanations:

(1): They don't really believe carbon emissions are bad.

(2): They believe that global warming is bad, just not AS bad as the thought of them having to live like ordinary people instead of modern-day royalty. Sure, polar ice caps melting is bad, but flying COACH is truly horrifying.

Basically, the options are (1) they're typical politicians or (2) they're basically evil. Call me a hopeless optimist, but I'm going with (1). :)

Sofa King said...

Hydrogen sucks as an energy storage medium. It is too diffuse and too difficult to store. Electrical synthesis of methane would be better IMO. The main component of natural gas, we already have vast infrastructure in place to transport and consume it directly.

Revenant said...

The way to stop the leak was to regulate the oil industry.

Drilling began in February of this year. The rig blew up two months later.

Let's pretend you're right, and that Bush repealed regulations that would have prevented the explosion. The best thing you can say about Obama is that he is so incompetent at his job that, in the twelve months since taking office, he couldn't pry himself away from the golf course long enough to get the old, "good" regulations reinstated.

You lot have gotten too used to blaming Bush for everything. What you don't realize is that while blaming Bush for something the government can't obviously and immediately fix (e.g., the economy) can play well with the public, blaming Bush for the Democratic Party's failure to pass regulations during a year of complete control of the government does NOT play well with the public. It makes you look like a pack of giant idiots, in fact.

So, er... keep at it. :)

AC245 said...

The way to stop the leak was to regulate the oil industry. But Bush and Cheney gutted the regulations, their regulatory staff had sex and drug parties, and they rushed permitting.

Well, damn, if Bush and Cheney are still running things 17 months after they were supposed to leave office, then what the hell are we paying Obama for? To play golf?

HDHouse said...

stutefish said...
HDHouse: Tell us: are you claiming to be deathly afraid of the global climate system because you actually understand it?"

Right and wrong. I'm fearful of global warming because

1. I undertand it and
2. there is a chance those who worship pseudo-science and non-science will scream so loud they will blot out the sun

HDHouse said...

@ Revenant

Bush is fair game in this and you know it. Stop defending the indefensible. He did gut the regulations. For Christsakes, Obama can't fix every problem that Bush created at once.

Michael said...

HD House: You "understand global warming" do you? And that's all you have to say , science wise, is that you understand it? Not even a little tour through the internets to refute John and Bruce who are asking for refutation? You "understand global warming." Priceless.

Charlie said...

The question, HDHouse, is rapidly becoming, "Can Obama fix *any* problem?"

Charlie said...

When I was a science editor in the 70s, the climate model was that we would soon be exiting a 60-yr period of the most ideal weather in the entire Holocene and returning to a *more normal* pattern of hotter and cooler summers, warmer and colder winters--precisely what we are seeing now. Can't we at least have someone explain how what we are seeing is not the long-predicted normal weather before trashing our economy?

globallycool said...

This article refers to the paradox which would exist if maximal efforts would be made to fight global warming, and no warming occurred -- success or waste of time?

What if efforts to fight warming were undertaken, but we face polar conditions due to made made or natural cooling?

Or efforts to fight warming fail either as inadequate or synergistic with warming.

Don Meaker said...

Global warming is bollocks. The Navier Stokes equations, which describe the movement of the atmosphere, are nonlinear. Edward Lorenz back in the 1960s showed that the non-linearity means weather (and hence, climate) can not be predicted long term, and the average temperature is meaningless. Weather and climate show sensitive dependence on initial conditions. In the desert, temperature fluctuates at least 20 degrees per day, and often as much as 40 degrees. Researchers who pretend to discover and report average temperature changes of 1 or 2 degrees are charlatans.

miller said...

Ah, the "science" of global warming is understood by at least one person.

You should stay by your phone so you can answer when the Nobel Prize Committee calls.

AlphaLiberal said...

Ann Althouse said:

"and then global warming doesn't happen"

Global warming is happening now:

* Northwest Passage is thawed and now open for shipping for the first time in human history.

* More intense rain and flooding events are happening, as projected.

* The pine bark beetle is thriving as it survives winter months. Vast forests are dying in the Rockies.

* The volume of Arctic sea ice continues to diminish.

* The tundra in Alaska is thawing and heaving.

AlphaLiberal said...

Then there's the recent National Academy of Sciences report on global warming:

" A strong, credible body of scientific evidence shows that climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems….

Some scientific conclusions or theories have been so thoroughly examined and tested, and supported by so many independent observations and results, that their likelihood of subsequently being found to be wrong is vanishingly small. Such conclusions and theories are then regarded as settled facts. This is the case for the conclusions that the Earth system is warming and that much of this warming is very likely due to human activities."

- “America’s Climate Choices.”

Roger J. said...

HD House: you understand it--what the science behind it? Lets see--you were a musician and then an ad man--precisely what is your background in research methodology or even more generally things like thermodynamics or other relevant topics--somehow I don't think science, research methodology, or other such topics are your strong suit. But feel free to enlighten us with your Cal Tech or MIT background.

Madison Man: at the risk of being a bit facetious, I would suggest glaciers have been shrinking for the last 40K years if you take as a baseline 40K BC. Our planet, as I know you are fully aware, has seen tremendous atmospheric and geological change long before our puny species ever evolved.

I would also suggest, re the various models being propounded, the gold standard to research is replication. If the models can't be replicated then you have shit--much like professor Pons and cold fusion. Anyone who denies the importance of replication is at best scientifically ignorant.

AlphaLiberal said...

Revenant:

"Drilling began in February of this year. The rig blew up two months later."

The permit was awarded about one month into Obama's term. Basically, the review and permit was awarded under the Bush-Cheney Administration.

A one-month old Administration has not had the time to change policies and practices.

The Mineral Management Service was in the pocket, and the bed, of the oil industry under Bush and Cheney. This is very well-established and outrageous fact.

Roger J. said...

Mad Man--and I am in full agreement with your position on nuclear power in your initial post--well said. Even the godless, cheese eating surrender monkeys the french are doing quite nicely with it. (OK, a bit hyperbolic--some of my best friends are french, french sommaliers notwithstanding.)

HDHouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...

Glacial melting is occurring at much faster rates than over the past 40k years. If they had been melting at this rate, they probably would have been gone a long time ago.

At the point I think the Republican Party needs to be known as the "Pro-Global Warming Party." We need to hang this albatross around their neck.

miller said...

"A one-month old Administration has not had the time to change policies and practices."

Well, at least it's still that way now - he's still blaming Bush.

Maybe he could appoint another commission - but this time make it a BLUE RIBBON COMMISSION.

That will stop the problem.

HDHouse said...

Roger J. said...
HD House: yI don't think science, research methodology, or other such topics are your strong suit. But feel free to enlighten us with your Cal Tech or MIT background."

Sure Roger. the Fyneman course in physics at CalTech, 9 patents in medical technology, actually teaching research methods and procedures at the doctoral level at 2 universities, 10 years advising the Soviet Academy of Science in marketing their inventions and procedures, a nomination from NASA for the Rolex Award for Science and the Humanities..oh and the first American to be named to the All USSR Society of Science, Medicine and Technology....there is some other stuff Roger but I'm sure you are bored to death right now....just about the same way I am bored with you.

miller said...

I don't have to go back too far to recall that the Romans were able to cross the Alps using snow-free passes. Seems like we've had this warming before.

Maybe the Romans should have used more fuel-efficient chariots.

Roger J. said...

So HD House: with such stering credentials as those, why are you in advertising when you could be a major force in science? enlighten me please. And trust me, I find you as boring and trite as you find me. So its really a wash isnt it.

HDHouse said...

Because I'm better in advertising than in science and generally we don't have to put up with putzy pseudo scientists who bring either their politics or their religion into the debate?

comprende? sprechen sie english?

I find it particularly galling that basic science is shoved aside because it is something that you or others on here 'just don't like' so you trump up crap science put forth by a minority and cling to it like a wet diaper.

Science isn't just something to dabble in when religion becomes boring and you can fit into your daily prayers or political Fauxnoise just some of the science that won't cause a wave in your pond. If you have traveled and talked to scientists who had a government control them and yet, in spite of ruination and potential retribution you can only imagine they stood firm and held on to their values and didn't sell them out to either score points or get that coveted FauxNoise guest spot.

I really don't have a lot of use political types who trot out the "unsettled science" garbage when caught in the hard spot between truth and a lie and I particularly have no respect whatsoever for those who are in science and support the completely unsupportable. You my friend should be ashamed.

Roger J. said...

House: what the hell are you talking about? yes I comprende, and I speak english--I did search on the list of patent holders in medicine, and I found one person who matches your name and who lived in Tulsa Oklahoma. Here's the search link: http://www.patentgenius.com/subpage.php?page=inventor&last=House&first=h&search=Search

You could cut the bullshit and list your patent numbers, and if you have them I will apologize for my doubt aboutyour credentials forthwith.

AllenS said...

HDHouse said...
Because I'm better in advertising than in science

Every day you are not able to sell your ideas to anyone on this blog.

HDHouse said...

@Roger - sure post your email and I'll dig out the abstracts and assignments and scan them to pdf and send them to you.

@AllenS - not sellin' just tellin'

and you will note Roger, a "scientist" himself had no rejoinder to my prior comment.

Roger J. said...

HD House--your previous comment was not worth commenting on--I dont own a TV, do not listen to radio, and since I dont own a TV cannot watch Fox News--Now if you would click on my blogger name, you will find my contact information. And seriously, I will look forward to reading your work. Frankly I think you are full of shit, but you could surprise me and if so I will be the first to take back my comments.

Trooper York said...

"hdhouse said....
10 years advising the Soviet Academy of Science in marketing their inventions and procedures,"

Whoop there it is!

Charlie said...

To House:

If you took the Feynman course, you are likely to know that he said another definition of science is belief in the ignorance of experts.

Now that the sun and ocean scientists are starting to weigh in, it's clear the GHG guys were either punching over their weight or are progressives willing to bend to the cauae.

Roger J. said...

Do I take it HD House, that you have a degree in physics from CalTech?

AllenS said...

Have you been sending me those penis enlargement pill emails? Well, I haven't bought any yet.

HDHouse said...

Trooper York said...
"hdhouse said....
10 years advising the Soviet Academy of Science ..Whoop there it is!

Funny. That coming from a guy who dresses up like John Wayne

MadisonMan said...

Edward Lorenz back in the 1960s showed that the non-linearity means weather (and hence, climate) can not be predicted long term, and the average temperature is meaningless. Weather and climate show sensitive dependence on initial conditions.

You display some ignorance in the understanding of weather predictability vs. climate predictability. The fact that weather cannot be predicted 3 weeks in advance (sometimes, 2-week forecasts have some accuracy -- the trick is knowing when the particular weather regime you're in is predictable -- I've never actually looked at 3-week forecasts) means absolutely nothing with respect to climate forecasts. Is the climate influenced by the fact that the big storm will be 2 weeks from tomorrow vs. 2 weeks and 2 days? Nope. If the storm tracks are consistent with observations, and temperatures are consistent with observations, then that's a first step in validating your climate model.

I'm not saying Climate Models offer much good output -- but your reasoning for disbelieving them is misguided.

HDHouse said...

AllenS said...
Have you been sending me those penis enlargement pill emails? Well, I haven't bought any yet."

Don't worry Allen, I'm pretty sure that those guys won't let your secret out.

Roger J. said...

Actually, Trooper York dresses up like Trooper York! The Cavalry Triology is still one of the best movie series that Hollywood produced.

Trooper York said...

It's just fun to see where you get your ideas hd.

You never disappoint.

Trooper York said...

I just didn't know that your Soviet masters paid so well that
you could afford your mansion in the Hamptons.

How very capitalist of you.

Roger J. said...

So HD: your degree in physics is from Cal Tech? Yes or no answer please

Trooper York said...

He is lying Roger.

You can tell. His lips are moving.

AllenS said...

MadMan,

Here are the ice out dates for Cedar Lake about a mile west of me.

1955 4/10
1976 4/6
1997 4/21
1956 4/22
1977 4/10
1998 4/5
1957 4/21
1978 4/18
1999 4/3
1958 4/13
1979 4/24
2000 3/22
1959 4/8
1980 4/18
2001 4/20
1960 4/15
1981 4/26
2002 4/16
1961 4/8
1982 4/20
2003 4/12
1962 4/21
1983 4/14
2004 4/5
1963 4/6
1984 4/13
2005 4/8
1964 4/11
1985 4/12
2006 4/7
1965 4/29
1986 4/7
2007 4/3
1966 4/5
1987 3/24
2008 4/23
1967 4/9
1988 3/14
1968 3/30
1989 4/17
1969 4/17
1990 4/3
1970 4/21
1991 4/8
1971 4/17
1992 4/10
1972 4/26
1993 4/19
1973 4/2
1994 4/13
1974 4/19
1995 4/14
1975 4/28
1996 4/25

Sometimes it goes out early, sometimes not so much.

Roger J. said...

Trooper: of course he is--and could you 'splain to Mr House, that trooper york was a character in the Cavalry Triology? That seems to be beyond his attention span. Now my favorite character was Victor McGlaughan and and follwed by Ward Bond--true cavalrymen

HDHouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger J. said...

Trooper: my other favorite charactter was Ben Johnson as trooper tyree--

And HD--you degree in physics was from CalTech? A BS? MS? PhD? Please enlighten us--

Trooper York said...

"Trooper: of course he is--and could you 'splain to Mr House, that trooper york was a character in the Cavalry Triology?"

You can not explain anything to hd.
Senile dementia is a terrible thing.

LarsPorsena said...

"Trooper: my other favorite charactter was Ben Johnson as trooper tyree--"

Touching scene when Tyree asks for a special funeral for "Trooper Smith".

Trooper York said...

Ben Johnson played the same character in all of the movies with variations on the same name.

He was a former stuntman who did most of his own stunts.

Personally I thought Henry Fonda was great playing the Custer role.
Stiff. Infexiable. Arrogant. Wordy. No concept of what was going on. Reminds me of a certain president who is currently leading us to disaster.

Roger J. said...

Trooper: you will note that the estimable Mr House is not very good at answering Yes or No questions.--since he has volunteered to provide me his abstracts (and with any luck the nine patents that he holds) I will withold any further judgment. But if in fact he has done what he has said he had done, I will apologize to him on this forum, don sack cloth and ashes etc.

Roger J. said...

Lars and Trooper: the John Ford Cavalry Triology is IMHO the best hollywood as produced.

HDHouse said...

Charlie said...
"If you took the Fyneman course, you are likely to know that he said another definition of science is belief in the ignorance of experts."

He had the brain to back that up.
Here are some posts you might like:

Charlie said...
"If you took the Feynman course, you are likely to know that he said another definition of science is belief in the ignorance of experts."

He had the brain to back that up.
Here are some posts you might like:

Surely you are joking.....

Curiosity.

Texas the no brain state.

Roger J. said...

well, except for perhaps treasure of the sierra madre and the african queen

Roger J. said...

HD surfaces again--so your degree in physics is from cal tech? Thats a yes or no.

Trooper York said...

I love all of John Fords movies especially the trilogy but you could never go wrong with any of his films.

In fact when I was thinking of a screen name I thought I would use the assumed name that the Duke used in the Quiet Man. In the movie he was a boxer who went under the name "Trooper Thorne" as his real name was Shawn Thorton. But I misremember it as Trooper York which was never his name in Rio Grande as he was a colonel. But by the time I had realized my mistake I had been posting for weeks so I decided to stick with it.

HDHouse said...

@roger..nope

Michael said...

Alpha Liberal: Yes, the Republicans are the cause of AGW. All AGW is caused by the actions of man in that part of North America known as the United States. The rest of the world not so much.

The ice age was vanquished by Asians. The little ice age by the Europeans.

I think I have it now. Democrats are going to vanquish global warming through the widespread use of taxes, wind and sun.

Roger J. said...

Trooper: one of my favorite characters is the dude that played the mexican bandit in
treasure of the sierra madre: Famous for the line: Badge? I dont need no stinkin badge.

HDHouse said...

@Trooper...

good an laudable answer. ford did have an eye.

Roger J. said...

Yeah HD-- I knew that already--just wanted to see you fes up

now you have my email addy so I assume I will be getting your abstracts and patent numbers.

See? the truth isnt that hard.

AlphaLiberal said...

You know, given that some conservatives, such as the Republican nominee for Governor in Nevada, still think flouride in water is a big problem, it's probably futile to try to reason anymore with conservatives on issues of science.

Anti-intellectualism is a core principle of modern conservatism, even as our world relies more on science and advanced technology and becomes increasingly complex.

Conservatives anymore seem to just hate science and to actively undermine it. Take their opposition to stem cell research, to dealing with ozone depletion, against evolution (heh), Bush-Cheney censoring scientific reports on climate change, etc, etc.

We can't prosper - or likely survive in recognizable form - as a country if we descend into this maelstrom of ignorance.

But the lesson to me is that these opponents and skeptics of science and intellectualism, probably including Althouse, are beyond reason.

Trooper York said...

Alfonso Bedoya played what the called the "bad tooth" Mexican in the Treasure of Sierra Madre. As opposed to the "good tooth" Mexican like Ricardo Montalbán or Gilbert Roland.

But my favor Mexican actor of the era was Pedro Armendáriz who played several roles in Fords movies including as Captian Yorks trusted sidekick in Fort Apache and as one of the "3 Godfathers." A huge star in Mexico he played a diginified and trustworthy friend to the Duke in many films and was one of the few positive portrayals of Mexicans in the movies to this very day.

As a side note, the Duke loved Latin woman and only married them. Ask Vicki from Pasedena about that sometime.

Michael said...

HD House: Would you go to an ad man for the truth? Can there be another business so devoted to distortion than advertising? Is there another "profession" as filled with failed writers and bitter non-artists who talk themselves into believing cynicism is the same thing as intelligence? Is there another brilliant scientist on the planet who forsook physics for advertising?

One of the things I have observed about liars is that they frequently give just a little bit more than is asked for, just a tad more specificity than is required. Which was a winning technique before the internets.

Roger J. said...

Trooper: you are SO bad--I love you man.

AlphaLiberal said...

And as far as "blaming Bush" it's the right thing to do when his actions and greed and incompetence have caused such havoc for the rest of us.

Throughout the Bush Administration the righties denied he was responsible for any of his actions. They tried to blame Clinton (as Reagan blamed Carter for over 4 years into his Presidency).

Rather than deal with the facts - did Bush and Cheney weaken regulatory oversight - they just deny, deny, deny.

You can't make the argument on it's merits that the consequences of Bush's actions ended on the day he left office. Because that is a dumb argument!

So all you have is denial. And we still have the wreckage of the Bush-Cheney Administration; the lingering massive unemployment, lax regulation of the energy industry, two wars, etc.

I guess you will never stop making excuses for him!

LarsPorsena said...

"Lars and Trooper: the John Ford Cavalry Triology is IMHO the best hollywood as produced."

Yes, and plus we can see the ravages of global warming on the Monument Valley..snark/off

AlphaLiberal said...

The big question is when Ann Althouse takes up the conservative battle cry against flouride in our water.

Ann, I think you should write your flouride-denier post TODAY!

Roger J. said...

Alpha: I would suggest that indeed political judgments play a role in "science." But to assert the conservatives are "anti intellectual" is just plain bull shit. Science is a process in which reputable scientists publish their findings, provide their supporting documentation, and then have it peer reviewed so other scientists can replicate their findings. It is the replication of data that leads to more precise findings. The process does not depend on one's political orientation.

MadisonMan said...

AllenS: I'll guess that this year was a very early thaw. Wisconsin had its 2nd warmest Spring (March April May) ever. The whole northeast US was warm. Cold in the south though.

But that's a cool climate record. I note that in the first 30 years, ice went out in March once. In the last 30 years? Three times.

Trooper York said...

Or you can just make shit up like the global warming liars do each and every day. Proven liars and frauds.

Roger J. said...

Lars: looks pretty much the same now as it did the late 1940s when Ford filmed there--who knew.

AlphaLiberal said...

So, for those who believe God often intervenes to send signals to us, I wonder what why these recent events aren't taken as signals from God?

* BP oil spill, shortly after Obama supports more expanded offshore drilling. The scene in the Gulf of death and destruction, fire on water often resembles hell.

* Floods in Arkansas the day after Sen Lincoln votes to end regulation of greenhouse gas pollution.

* Floods in Oklahoma, home to global warming denier/dumb ass James Inhofe.

* The big plaster Jesus next to an interstate goes up in smoke. Porn shop across the way, untouched.

How do you interpret these signs?

AlphaLiberal said...

John Wayne's real name was Marion.

LarsPorsena said...

"Lars: looks pretty much the same now as it did the late 1940s when Ford filmed there--who knew."

Considering the ravages of global warming who could'a thunk it?

Trooper York said...

That God hates Obama.

Trooper York said...

"AlphaLiberal said...
John Wayne's real name was Marion."

So what?

AllenS said...

True that, MadMan. My point is that there doesn't seem to be any significant pattern. I sit on a tractor without a cab when I plow snow. Sometimes I plow a lot, sometimes hardly ever. Same with extreme cold, and other years it's not too bad.

LarsPorsena said...

Problem: there's a hole in the ocean floor gushing crude oil.

Obama
Solution: let's build some windmills.

AllenS said...

And, I've been plowing with a tractor since 1971.

AlphaLiberal said...

That God hates Obama.

?

Which God?

John "Mary" Wayne was dishonest to change his name, that's what. Insecure about his masculinity, apparently.

Trooper York said...

"LarsPorsena said...
Problem: there's a hole in the ocean floor gushing crude oil"

AlphaLiberal...
"It is all Bush's fault and lets talk about flouride....quick look over here!"

Roger J. said...

Good Lord, Alpha--John Waynes real name was Marion--and since he changed it that suggests to you had masculinity problems?

Get professional help, boy--you are in dire need.

AllenS said...

Mr. and Mrs. Liberal had a son/daughter. Guess what they named it?

Trooper York said...

"AlphaLiberal said....
John "Mary" Wayne was dishonest to change his name, that's what. Insecure about his masculinity, apparently."

You really are at bottom a very silly man.

LarsPorsena said...

Could be the same reason Archibald Leach changed his name when he went to Hollywood.

Roger J. said...

Ok--since I have nothing to do today except (a la the Clint Eastwood character in Grand torino) chase kids and dogs off my lawn, let me return to my morning project of jabbing HD House.

So know we know he really does not have a degree in physics from Cal Tech--I await his correspondence with his patent numbers (at this point rather rejected by the patent office's data base of patent holders), and his abstracts of his publications. I will report forthwith when I recieve them.

I rather regard HD as the dog who defecates on my lawn--

Michael said...

Alpha: OK, you're right. Bush is the cause of it all.

Now what?

LarsPorsena said...

"Alpha: OK, you're right. Bush is the cause of it all.

Now what?"

Build those windmills.

AlphaLiberal said...

Roger, it's a "joke." I'm teasing T York.

And, T Yank, you got the order of those comments reversed. And you managed to miss the point entirely.

Republicans hate and attack science. They think flouride is a threat. Why in the world should we care what these know nothings think about global warming?

Remember Palin complaining about scientific research on fruit flies and bears? Republicans are always making grade school-quality jokes at scientific research like that.

Numbskulls.

AlphaLiberal said...

Michael and Lars, you have some really poor reading comprehension skills.

You: "Alpha: OK, you're right. Bush is the cause of it all."

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the consequences of his greed and incompetence did not stop the day Obama was sworn. They continue.

But people who use science and knowledge know there are multiple causes for problems in this world.

AlphaLiberal said...

Roger J:

But to assert the conservatives are "anti intellectual" is just plain bull shit.

I see. You so understand science that I post numerous real world examples of Republican opposition to science.

And you respond with: "is not" and ignore the numerous examples.

Not especially convincing!

AlphaLiberal said...

Good luck with your return to the Middle Ages, conservatives. hope you don't take us with you.

"American Taliban," indeed.

Roger J. said...

Alpha--I do public health and flouride in water is a major plus--and guess what. I am a reublican conservative and libertarian--Republicans making political issues of science are no different than democrats making issues of science to further their political ends.

Good oral health can be achieved by flouridation, and getting dental hygeiests out from under the thumb of the dentists lobby.

Fouridataion, coupled with inexpensive tooth care by qualified hygienests can eliminate most cavities and dental problems--except that cuts into the bottom line of dentists.

And I have no idea how spell hygienest and dont want to look it up

Trooper York said...

Alphaliberal
Republicans hate and attack (junk) science. They think flouride is a threat (in my wild imagination confusing Republicans with the John Birch society...they are the same thing right.) Why in the world should we care what these know nothings think about global warming?(we just have to lie and cook the books so we can take over the economy and destroy the capitialist system).

Fixed.
Fixed.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

Alpha; We can guess as to what you might perceive as Bush's incompetence, but what of his greed? Has he made as much as, say, former President Clinton? What evidence of Bush's greed can you provide?

HDHouse said...

Trooper York said...
"Obama is totally blowing the clean up on the Gulf worse then Bush did with Katrina .."

Mark the minute Trooper...I agree with you. I don't think they are the same thing as Katrina didn't just keep hitting New Orleans but I do agree with you that Obama had nothing to offer last night and has not effectively taken charge of this mess. It is his to do and he isn't doing it.

The speech should never have been given and won't vote for him again as a result of his lack of handling of this unless he turns it around and pronto...we'll see how he does with BP today...but right now you are right and I agree.

HDHouse said...

Roger J. said...
" John Ford Cavalry Triology is IMHO the best hollywood as produced."

Well we agree on something

Trooper York said...

hd my heart is too weak to handle this.

I must say I really respect you for saying that. Anyone with an ounce of intergity would have to agree with you. The clean up and ending this spill is a totally seperate issue. The only way to get him to move if for his supporters like you to get him to put the full resources of the government to bear in what is a totally legitmate use of such power. If BP was negligent (which I have no doubt they were) they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But we have to get moving to protect the wetlands the economic life of Lousiana.

Thanks hd.

Roger J. said...

You know, HD--if you would drop some of your insufferable bullshit we just might agree on a hell of a lot more. Its Ok to disagree on policy; God knows that there are lots of policy choices out there. Its OK not to like certain politicians, but from what I have seen you tend to step up the rhetoric a bit more than is justified.

Frankly I don't expect you send me anything on my email addy--If you do, I will review them, and give you credit where credit is due.

And if you want to know something about me, google my name--available on the blog addy. I got nothing to hide .

Trooper York said...

Plus hd has just proved that global warming is a total farce.

If hdhouse and Trooper York agree on something that is proof positive that Hell has frozen over and they are having a snowball fight.

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