May 7, 2010

"I'm mad that they wore their stuff, but we were just mad the we were asked to change our stuff, but they could still wear their stuff."

"Yeah, I would have took my stuff off if they had to take their stuff off too."

It's a big controversy about... stuff.

No, it's a controversy about some high school kids wearing American flag shirts on Cinco de Mayo. Watch the video at the link. You can see that the kids who were into Cinco de Mayo felt "disrespected" by the display of the American flag on what they thought of as their day. It felt like a response... a debate. And I understand how all those kids felt. But the flag shirts were, of course, speech, and the school cannot go down the road of viewpoint discrimination, even if the school officials have some well-intended idea about making members of the minority group feel comfortable.

What the school needs is a neutral ban on T-shirts with symbols or writing. Require real shirts, with no writing or picture. Or go with uniforms. But if you let some kids speak via shirts, you have to let others respond via shirt.

Speech by shirt is a type of debate, but it's hardly the best kind of debate. It's quite close to the signaling that gang members do, which has no place in school. There is an appropriate worry about violence. There should be order in schools, and there can be strict rules limiting what students wear. Instead, teach students to express themselves with words. Help them develop their ideas beyond the rudimentary level of calling the flag stuff.

I remember when the use of the flag in clothing was all about disrespect. It was the kind of hippie shit that enraged WWII veterans. That was back when you weren't allowed to wear any sort of T-shirt to school. And now these young schoolboys are being used by right-wingers to make various political points. I would prefer to teach all the students to dress better and to speak better — not to say "I would have took my stuff" — and to have vigorous, substantive debates about politics.

And I like the way these schoolboys put on real shirts, shirts with collars, to do their TV interview. It is up to us adults to reach out to them and to help them. They are not our pawns. They mean well, I believe, and they are trying. It is time for all the adults in their world to help them and their antagonists to become the kind of adults who will make our country a better place.

128 comments:

Lincolntf said...

"What the school needs is a neutral ban on T-shirts with symbols or writing."

Now your vote for Obama is starting to make more sense to me.

Rialby said...

Yes, Ann. We should prevent the students from taking any sort of political stance and leave it up to the teachers to teach them the appropriate lessons about history and culture.

ricpic said...

Stars an' stripes? We don' need no steenkin' stars an' stripes!

hawkeyedjb said...

I'm always agog at the idea that we should hide the American flag out of 'sensitivity'. How about if I walked up to someone in, say, France and announced that I'm insulted by the sight of the French flag. In a French building. In France. 'Ugly American' would probably be the mildest epithet you could come up with.

Rialby said...

I agree with the Mexican students that they talked to -- this is THEIR holiday and bringing anything American to the party is like pissing on their pinata.

SteveR said...

Unlike St. Patrick's Day, which is a very similar type of cultural celebration in the U.S., Cinco de Mayo has been used by some and mischaracterized by others as symbolizing the preference for a Mexican identity over an American one.

That's clearly overstating how a vast majority of people who celebrate Cinco de Mayo feel(mostly just wanting to have a Tecate or whatever), but its not happening in a vacuum either. La Raza Unida and all that.

Pogo said...

A few years ago, people wanted to ban flag-burning.

Now they want to ban flag wearing because it's "incendiary".
Heh.

Now we have 'the fire next time'.

Don said...

Really, why don't we retrocede CA, AZ, NM, and TX back to Mexico already? Get it over with now, peacefully, before anybody gets really worked up. Its not like they have ever really been part of the US anyway. And recognize the District of Columbia as a sovereign nation. Their license plates say "Taxation without Representation." Thats a plea for independence if I ever heard one.

c3 said...

What the school needs is a neutral ban on T-shirts with symbols or writing. Require real shirts, with no writing or picture. Or go with uniforms...I remember when the use of the flag in clothing was all about disrespect. It was the kind of hippie shit that enraged WWII veterans.

Prof. Althouse as curmudgeon

(Where's the creamy hippie love chick center?

John Burgess said...

I'm not contradicting, but I haven't seen anything that says the kids were 'put up to it' (wearing American flag t-shirts) by any political body.

By high school age, they may have already formed ideas about patriotism, even if rudimentary.

Jason said...

I want an administrator's head on a pike.

It's time to put the fear of God into the educrat libtards.

No, Professor, the solution isn't banning 't-shirts.' There might be reasons to go with school uniforms. But avoiding this issue isn't one of them. Next thing you know, the kids will be wearing armbands to symbolize their allegiance to Mexico and you're back to Tinker v. Des Moine, anway.

This issue needs to be tackled head-on, and these kids need to know that they are in Los Estados Unidos, PERIOD, that they are NOT in Mexico, FULL STOP.

And these libtard shit-for-brains administrators need to have their heads jacked around and realize who they work for.

We should have Cinco de Mayo celebrations. As Americans.

I'm an Irish American. I'm active in the Irish community. I play Irish music. My band plays multiple St. Patrick's Day festivals every year. Every year we close with the Irish National Anthem, in Gaelic. And then we play the Star Spangled Banner, as the last thing we do, in the place of honor.

There are Irish flags all over the place. And there are almost as many American flags. And when they fly together, the American flag flies on top, or on the right, in the place of honor.

That's what I expect of our Mexican community, too, and NOTHING LESS.

WV: pailint. Heh.

Craig said...

this is THEIR holiday

Back when Columbus Day was celebrated, Italian-Americans were proud because it led to the establishment of the United States. On St. Patrick's Day, Irish-Americans don't become offended when they see an American flag.

For some reason, though, the Mexicans are thought to be different. I'm not even sure Mexican-American students took offense at the American flag clothing; but school administrators, at least, were worried they would.

These boys did nothing wrong. We must resist holdays in the United States celebrating the nationalism of other countries.

Lincolntf said...

The "put up to it" dismissal of their motives is just a cop out/red herring meant to imply that their political speech is meaningless. I can assure everyone that tons of high school kids have a well formed sense of self and of country.
Check out the age of most military enlistees. First job out of high school for a lot of them.

info said...

"And now these young schoolboys are being used by right-wingers to make various political points."

And there you have it my friends...wearing a symbol of your country while in your country...well that's a right wing issue (Not American mind you)...and so the left marches...right off the cliff..please hurry November so we can START to throw the idiots out!

TMink said...

What the frack is someone doing flying a Mexican flag in America. The disrespect is there.

I wonder what percentage of the kids were here illegally and should be deported?

Trey

rcocean said...

Really, why don't we retrocede CA, AZ, NM, and TX back to Mexico already?

Better idea, let them secede from the USA and set up their own country. Texas/Cali/NM/Arz/ - throw in Nevada and and Colorado.

Maybe then they'd have a government that would protect the Mexican border.

And before that, lets kick New England out. They could then join Canada be socialist, just they like they always wanted.

rhhardin said...

I wear blank white tee shirts but I have nothing to say.

On dress occasions, I pull over a blank white sweatshirt.

(Try to buy a blank white sweatshirt. It's not easy.)

White is the best visibility color for bike riders.

It also allows everything go to in the washing machine at once when you run out of clothing.

Consequence: buy exactly enough clothing to fill one load in the washing machine, plus one day.

OT: Mickey Kaus is on John and Ken, which ought to bump his campaign enormously.

Look for the podcast here tomorrow morning, the 4PM hour (PDST).

Eric said...

They should have worn flags on their shorts.

edutcher said...

The fact is that this was one of those, "How dast thou?", moments the National Socialists love. Only on Mexican Heritage day, or whatever, may Mexican T-shirts be worn. Any others are the equivalent of TREASON! The irony is that the same people who would go into a swoon over a Confederate shirt on Robert E. Lee's birthday have no problem here, although both made war on the United States.

But, then, some combatants are more preferable than others, as some guy named Orwell out it.

I disagree with Rialby on the idea of political stances - that's for after hours, but, at the same time, a dress code is not the issue. Ann's right in saying that these kids are being used as pawns (that's what the Demos want), but they're not dummies, either, and they will have opinions. It's the school's duty, in which they seem to have no apparent interest, to show them how to have an intelligent debate.

mesquito said...

Cinco De Mayo, which marks the (futile) victory of the Mexicans over the French in the Battle of Puebla, is largely ignored in Mexico. It it invoked in the United States as a provocation.

What say we supress it?

Ralph L said...

We're too late to celebrate the Battle of Veracruz this year (March 9-29). Twenty days of drinking and debauchery.

WV - twirch - the quiver the gluts make during a caning.

Big Mike said...

It is up to us adults to reach out to them and to help them.

I don't see that they particularly want or need your "help."

Now a young female who thinks that an American wearing a T-shirt with the representation of an American flag on any day of the year is somehow being disrespectful, now she needs some help.

A.G. said...

It is time for all the adults in their world to help them and their antagonists to become the kind of adults who will make our country a better place.

Er, the "adults" leading the country are talking about tampons in people's mouths, teabagging, and cracking jokes about "fucking retards" and Special Olympics athletes.

Big Mike said...

@rcocean, all you'd accomplish is to move the border control problem up to Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon.

Be said...

I went to a school that had uniforms. The big issue was how to skirt (snort) the uniforms rule (how short the skirts were; whether one wore a tee shirt or an oxford under the cardigan, etc.) I think that Ann's really on to something here, as we never had to deal with sh#t being gang-related or free speech related when it was white shirts, blue skirts, and burgundy colored cardigans.

Diamondhead said...

If I hear one more mealy-mouthed school administrator utter the word "respect..." These are the ones in charge of educating "America's future?" To quote Reagan, "I'll sell my bonds."

PatCA said...

Yes, my father stopped contributing to his alma mater when he saw pics of a demonstration there and a kid had the flag on the seat of his pants.

I agree with you on the behavior too--these kids, and their elders too, need to have full on, mediated debates over these "disrespect" and "offensive" issues.

The Crack Emcee said...

Wrong - again. And this time really wrong. And this is simple civics.

I'm trying not to, but I'm starting to get just as worried about the growing popularity of you and Glenn as I am about the mainstream media.

dbp said...

Our society should have the confidence to expect all citizens to be Americans first and wherever they are from second.

Either that, or the honesty to admit that the South West will one day be part of Mexico again.

The attitude of the HS girls that there is some equivalence between the 4th of July and Cinco de Mayo, in the United States! shows at least that part of the population going down the path to civil war or revolutionary war (depending on who wins).

Trooper York said...

So you are saying it is all so Un-American to respect our flag....or something?

Trooper York said...

I think they should have done one thing that would have united all the boys in this high school.

Have the girls wear wet t-shirts.

Diamondhead said...

"all you'd accomplish is to move the border control problem up to Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon."

You're suggesting people would brave the border patrol in order to exit Texas and enter Oklahoma. Good one. Texas would do just fine in these scenarios, but no thanks on joining California.

Trooper York said...

Just make sure they wet the front of the shirt too. Just sayn'

Rialby said...

"For some reason, though, the Mexicans are thought to be different."

They are different in that, unlike any other immigrant group to the US, they actually have a somewhat legitimate case that large tracts of land is Mexico. Sure, they lost a war. That doesn't matter to them though.

The other point that many people overlook is that the poor Mexicans who are hustled across the border are of native American ancestry while the hustlers are typically from European ancestry. This only serves to support the argument that they're only seeking to regain the Aztec empire and it's America's duty to help them.

Iapetus said...

Homeland Security is missing a bet here. It wouldn't surprise me if these radical Hispanic kids are part of a terrorist plot to overthrow the US government, just like those white right-wing extremists we were recently warned about. Be vigilant! /snarc

JAL said...

Since when is Old Navy about the right wing?

Eric said...

I went to a school that had uniforms. The big issue was how to skirt (snort) the uniforms rule (how short the skirts were; whether one wore a tee shirt or an oxford under the cardigan, etc.)

Hahaha. I have fond memories of girls rolling their skirts at the waste so they were waaaaay higher than the rules allowed. If the dean was near they could be unrolled again.

Rialby said...

Victor Davis Hanson was on Dennis Miller the other day and he told this fascinating story. VDH lives in the Central Valley of CA amongst many thousands of Mexican nationals (I'm going to stop calling them illegals since they're really just citizens of another country to which they pledge allegiance).

Anyhoo - VDH said he went to a local grocery store. While he was at the checkout of this grocery store, completely staffed by Spanish-speakers, a Mexican walked up to the counter and started gesturing. Apparently, he didn't even speak Spanish. He spoke Mixtec - an ancient language of Oaxaca. He couldn't even communicate with his fellow countrymen.

Good plan.

JAL said...

"... these young school boys...? You remember trying to tell your boys what to wear? Oh yeah ... that was back then. This is now.

Moose said...

Innit interesting that your generation blazed the trail for people to make inane points that you find distasteful?

Sort of fitting...

Expat(ish) said...

I told a friend I was mighty tempted to go to the sidewalk outside the local Home Depot and burn a Mexican flag (protected speech, AFAIK) to see what would happen.

He said he'd bring a gun to protect me and a video camera to protect himself.

And that's when I knew the argument would get ugly sooner rather than later.

-XC

Moose said...

Oh, and sorry - screw cinco de mayo. Its like the fookin' irish getting all lathered up about the English.

If you want to deal that shit, keep it back at home. Regret to tell you, this is the United States...

Rialby said...

On more point and I'll go back to my Rangpur and Tonic.

We are largely importing laborers from Mexico and Central America. These people are mostly young and are willing to do hard, manual labor. These kinds of jobs take an extraordinary toll on the body and can wear down a man or woman far faster than sitting behind a desk can.

Most of the men and women who've come here to do these jobs "retire" early. When was the last time you saw 50 year old Mexicans doing hard labor? They typically don't. Light work for older illegals who speak poor English is scarce.

So, what happens to these folks after they've used up their fairly short window of employability? Do you think they pack up their trucks and drive back to Jalisco? No. They stay and do two things - they live off their families and they scam the system.

So, now we're supporting both our own manual laborers (they face many of the same problems) and Mexico's manual laborers. Brilliant.

Chip Ahoy said...

Bah.

kcom said...

All you have to do, as someone alluded to above, is ask yourself how many students wearing American flag t-shirts would be asked to turn them inside out on St. Patrick's Day. The answer, of course, would be none. Because the people who celebrate St. Patrick's Day are Irish-Americans. They're as American as they are Irish (actually more so), as are all the non-Irish descended celebrants enjoying that day.

That's the key - if these students are Mexican-Americans celebrating their heritage then they should find zero offense in an American flag. They should think of themselves as Americans as much as, or more so, than as Mexicans. And if they do find offense (or "disrespect", as that one girl on the video I saw said) then you have to question their commitment to being Americans. If their loyalty is to Mexico at the expense of America or they are not actually Americans at all, then we owe them no consideration or holiday based on that political stance. If they are simply celebrating their ethnic heritage (again, along with plenty of other people of non-Mexican descent, i.e. drunks up for any excuse to party) then it's a non-issue. It doesn't interfere with those students right, as the boys said, to wear whatever they want or celebrate whatever they want.

What the girl I quoted above also said was that she wouldn't wear a Mexican flag on the 4th of July because it would be disrespectful and therefore those students shouldn't wear American flags on Cinco de Mayo because that would also be disrespectful. The correct answer should be she loves wearing an American flag on the 4th of July because she loves her country and that she loves wearing a Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo because she loves her heritage. What some boys do on the day she celebrates her heritage should be irrelevant. No one expects that she's under any obligation to honor Casimir Pulaski Day, the Norwegian-American 17th of May Parade (look, there's the American flag alongside the Norwegian one), or Liberia's National Redemption Day (and Liberia has a much closer political lineage with America than Mexico does). Cinco de Mayo is an observation of a battle in a foreign land between two sovereign and foreign armies in which American forces did not participate. Why would there be an obligation for an American citizen in America 150 years later to change his wardrobe based on that?

rcocean said...

These Mexican immigrants need to act like Americans. I suggest they burn an American flag over the 'disrepect' shown to the Mexican flag. Its the American way!

'Cause burning the American flag - and respecting the Mexican flag - is not only constitutional free speech - its why they died at Normandy, Valley Forge,and Iwo Jima.

Lem said...

I would have wroot my stuff here.. but Althouse has disrespected me ;)

Joe M. said...

+1 for school uniforms.

Hagar said...

This was about some teenage boys thinking it would be fun to start a ruckus, and not that much about "patriotism;" that's just their cover story.
So, for once, I am with the principal. Just too bad he still had to try to sound like the adults on a Peanuts special, but that's what school administrators do.

And, BTW, it is highly improper to wear any national flag as your clothing, and you certainly should not do it to your own flag.

Larry J said...

You can see that the kids who were into Cinco de Mayo felt "disrespected" by the display of the American flag on what they thought of as their day.

Why are we constantly required to walk on eggshells lest we offend someone while they're perfectly free to offend us? If they're offended by the American flag, perhaps the problem is theirs, not ours.

MadisonMan said...

Plenty of idiocy to go around. Why do they care what other people are wearing?

As long as the clothes do not disrupt, anything should go. The problem was that the school had no policy before this happened. One wonders what the administrators are there for. I would think they're employed, among other things, to head off just this kind of thing. Apparently not.

LonewackoDotCom said...

On one hand, it's great that they did this and it might wake a lot of people up to the problems related to this issue.

On the other hand, this is yet another stunt, just like all the other stunts.

The much smarter way to do things is to discredit those who support the current situation on video and use that to have an impact on their careers. That will send an extremely loud message to those in a position of real power that they need to change their ways.

For a tangible example, it would be great if someone could organize an effort to ask Jim Wallis about his false compassion. If someone who's experienced - like a trial lawyer - can make the points at the second link to him on video and then upload it to video sharing sites it would send a message that even Obama would hear.

Please ignore those who just encourage you to throw tantrums, wave loopy signs, or play dress-up games like little girls. Please ignore those supposed Obama opponents whose actions end up helping him.

If you want to do something effective, you have to raise the level and do things in a smart way; that's the last thing Obama wants. You can start by helping me discredit people like Wallis.

fivewheels said...

No, maybe you shouldn't wear clothing adorned by the flag. But as I've posted elsewhere, it's an act of defiance, of "taking it back" akin to African-Americans using the n-word among themselves.

As the professor said, American flag shirts used to be the province of those hippie longhairs, don't you know, but when the hippies became our teachers, I think some of us "took it back" as unironic patriotism because we knew it would infuriate them.

No, you're not supposed to do it (like you're not supposed to use the n-word), but the point is, damn it, those people can't tell me when and where. At least that's what you'd think if you were a smart-ass kid, as I assume these kids are, and good for them.

If they're not the most articulate people you've ever heard, well, they've still got some time to learn. Probably not from that school, though.

Revenant said...

They are different in that, unlike any other immigrant group to the US, they actually have a somewhat legitimate case that large tracts of land is Mexico. Sure, they lost a war. That doesn't matter to them though

In what sense is the claim "somewhat legitimate"? They signed the land over to us in the peace treaty. Their prior claim on the land was that THEY had obtained it by conquest. The original inhabitants were various Native American groups who, today, are American citizens.

In other words, they have a "somewhat legitimate" claim on parts of the USA in the sense that Japan has a "somewhat legitimate" claim on Taiwan.

Ann Althouse said...

"Now your vote for Obama is starting to make more sense to me." All you conservatives who are criticizing me like that? You have a reading assignment: Justice Thomas in the Bong Hits for Jesus case:

In light of the history of American public education, it cannot seriously be suggested that the First Amendment “freedom of speech” encompasses a student’s right to speak in public schools. Early public schools gave total control to teachers, who expected obedience and respect from students. And courts routinely deferred to schools’ authority to make rules and to discipline students for violating those rules. Several points are clear: (1) under in loco parentis, speech rules and other school rules were treated identically; (2) the in loco parentis doctrine imposed almost no limits on the types of rules that a school could set while students were in school; and (3) schools and teachers had tremendous discretion in imposing punishments for violations of those rules.

It might be suggested that the early school speech cases dealt only with slurs and profanity. But that criticism does not withstand scrutiny. First, state courts repeatedly reasoned that schools had discretion to impose discipline to maintain order. The substance of the student’s speech or conduct played no part in the analysis. Second, some cases involved punishment for speech on weightier matters, for instance a speech criticizing school administrators for creating a fire hazard. See Wooster, 27 Cal. App., at 52–53, 148 P., at 959. Yet courts refused to find an exception to in loco parentis even for this advocacy of public safety.

To be sure, our educational system faces administrative and pedagogical challenges different from those faced by 19th-century schools. And the idea of treating children as though it were still the 19th century would find little support today. But I see no constitutional imperative requiring public schools to allow all student speech. Parents decide whether to send their children to public schools. Cf. Hamilton v. Regents of Univ. of Cal., 293 U. S. 245, 262 (1934) (“California has not drafted or called them to attend the university. They are seeking education offered by the State and at the same time insisting that they be excluded from the prescribed course …”); id., at 266 (Cardozo, J., concurring). If parents do not like the rules imposed by those schools, they can seek redress in school boards or legislatures; they can send their children to private schools or home school them; or they can simply move. Whatever rules apply to student speech in public schools, those rules can be challenged by parents in the political process.

In place of that democratic regime, Tinker substituted judicial oversight of the day-to-day affairs of public schools. The Tinker Court made little attempt to ground its holding in the history of education or in the original understanding of the First Amendment .8 Instead, it imposed a new and malleable standard: Schools could not inhibit student speech unless it “substantially interfere[d] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school.” 393 U. S., at 509 (internal quotation marks omitted). Inherent in the application of that standard are judgment calls about what constitutes interference and what constitutes appropriate discipline. See id., at 517–518 (Black, J., dissenting) (arguing that the armbands in fact caused a disruption). Historically, courts reasoned that only local school districts were entitled to make those calls. The Tinker Court usurped that traditional authority for the judiciary.

Ann Althouse said...

"So you are saying it is all so Un-American to respect our flag....or something?"

When did a flag on a T-shirt become a way to respect the flag? I respect free speech rights, and whatever a flag on a shirt means is something free speech rights protect, but schools are entitled to impose dress codes that are viewpoint neutral as to speech. Therefore the school should avoid the conflict it's worried about by banning all clothing with writing or pictures. That easily passes the First Amendment requirements.

rcocean said...

Why are we constantly required to walk on eggshells lest we offend someone while they're perfectly free to offend us? If they're offended by the American flag, perhaps the problem is theirs, not ours.

You mean people who come here should adopt our ways and customs?

That's pretty bold talk for an American.

LonewackoDotCom said...

Does Althouse agree with me that stunts are great for short-term publicity, but don't solve problems? Would she agree that discrediting someone like Wallis* would be far more effective at reducing illegal immig. than yet another stunt?

* Religious leader linked to the BHO admin; is/was fan of K. Marx; very strong supporter of illegal activity; attempts to give that illegal activity a moral sheen.

Ann Althouse said...

The school has to worry about students wearing gang colors, and things like this could be used to create gang-like divisions. My point is that the students on both "sides" should be covered by equivalent restrictions for the school to do the discipline it thinks is needed.

rcocean said...

Lone Dot wacko is a Liberal Moby

mariner said...

Althouse:
And now these young schoolboys are being used by right-wingers to make various political points.

What a load of crap!

They were used by left-wingers to make political points. If the left-wingers had simply left them alone, there would have been no controversy, and no story.

edutcher said...

Rialby said...

"For some reason, though, the Mexicans are thought to be different."

They are different in that, unlike any other immigrant group to the US, they actually have a somewhat legitimate case that large tracts of land is Mexico. Sure, they lost a war. That doesn't matter to them though.


Baloney. The same logic says the UK has some rights to the US east of the Mississippi(remember Yorktown and N'Awlins?) or the French can claim parts of New England (Plains of Abraham, etc.).

I may have told this story before, but it bears repeating. The Blonde and I were in San Antonio last year and visited the Alamo. There was a large display showing the battle at its height. A young woman of obvious Mexican descent with two little boys in tow was explaining what happened and was pointing to the display saying, "and those are the bad guys over there". She was indicating the Mexican soldiers.

It obviously matters more to some than others.

Political said...

This video is great! The No Apology Song: http://mittromneycentral.com/2010/05/07/no-apology-song-the-case-for-american-greatness/

The more people that hear this, the better. It’s not too late to wake up Americans so we can bring America back! Let’s spread this everywhere we can!

Trooper York said...

"The school has to worry about students wearing gang colors"

Yes wearing the American Flag is the same as wearing gang colors.

Jeeez.

Trooper York said...

Education is too important to be left to the teachers.

Governor Christie has the right idea. Fire all their asses and replace them with robots.

Meade said...

"I wear blank white tee shirts but I have nothing to say."

Heh.

But if you're a young black male on a "high crime" street corner in the city, your brand new baggy blank white t-shirt says: "Crack for sale."

Joe said...

Went to high school in the late 70s, upstate New York, conservative white collar town.

We could wear just about anything to school and did.

I now live in conservative Utah and kids can pretty much wear what they want to high school. It's not quite as extreme at the edges, but except for the hair, you couldn't tell my kids' classmates from mine (standard "uniform" being jeans and T-Shirt.)

Seems the solution is for the adults to lighten up and quit being such assholes.

William said...

Many Irish here are bragging of their assimilation and patriotism. And good for them. I think the proper analogy, however, is not that of the Irish in America but of the Irish in Great Britain. Irish Catholics, unlike the Welsh and the Scots who also had their grievances against the English, were never able to become British.... In the 19th century, religion was a greater fault line in England than color presently is in America. The Duke of Wellington gave landed Catholics in Ireland the vote. This limited suffrage was met with such outrage among the English that Wellington, the greatest hero of his era, felt it necessary to fight a duel to defend his honor. In the end, neither the English nor the Irish wanted the Irish to be British.....I wonder if the Mexicans will become like the Irish in America or the Irish in Great Britain. It could go either way.

Big Mike said...

Joe for President!

LonewackoDotCom said...

Regarding rcocean's comment, why would someone want to dissuade people from opposing BHO in smart and effective ways?

Why would someone like rcocean try to (I guess) encourage people to act like children and wave loopy signs and play dress-up games, despite the fact that those have been proven not to work?

I'm definitely no RealConservative, but I did oppose BHO before the election and I tried to get others to do that in an effective way.

Instead, we see what happened: BHO won. We also see what those supposed BHO opponents did with healthcare: in effect helped BHO push it through.

If anyone's a pro-BHO "Moby" here, it's rcocean.

Ralph L said...

Just make sure they wet the front of the shirt too

Chortle chortle...uh

RACIST!

LonewackoDotCom said...

Silly me, I forgot to include some links.

Here's a list of the immigration groups I've been covering since 2002. The teaparties are or should be opposed to most of those, such as the National Council of La Raza.

Instead of trying to prevent an NCLR member from getting on the Supreme Court as I urged, the teapartiers and the r/w bloggers did almost nothing.

Who's the real "Moby"?

tim maguire said...

And now these young schoolboys are being used by right-wingers to make various political points.

Really?!? Sometimes, professor, you say things that just make me scratch my head and wonder what in the world you were thinking when you wrote it.

Pretty much this entire post falls under that category. There is so much wrong here, but I'll just point out that one need not be a "right-winger" to appreciate America and all that the flag represents.

fivewheels said...

You don't have to be a right-winger to love America, of course not. But I think it might be just about true that you have to be a right-winger to be upset that these kids got sent home. I can only give my impression from reading blogs, but I think that left-wingers who concede that the school acted wrongly still aren't very upset that the kids were punished, in a what-did-they-expect sort of way.

That's less a right/left political split than a right/left cultural split. But I think it really is a right/left issue.

A.G. said...

When did a flag on a T-shirt become a way to respect the flag?

This seems a bit arbitrary to me; who's to judge what true "respect" means in the mind of somebody else? For instance, what if I simply took a US flag and "wore" it by draping it around my shoulders at the school to show pride for my country? This may seem a little over the top, jingoistic, and perhaps even "disrepectful" to some.

But then again, when the 1980 US Olympic hockey goalie Jim Craig did just that, it was one of the most heroic (and respectful) moments in US sports history.

And further, at some venues (country music festivals, biker rallies, etc.), it's pretty common to see t-shirts with the flag on them.

rcocean said...

Lonedotwacko,

Fine, you're either a Moby or an idiot. Why do you call yourself a Wacko?

Does that persuade people, or make them think you're slyly subverting your own beliefs?

I suggest you are too intelligent to believe the former, so the latter must be the true.

The Crack Emcee said...

I never knew a law professor before.

It's really weird.

Kirk Parker said...

rcocean,

"Lone Dot wacko is a Liberal Moby"

Really? And here I thought "Lone Dot Wacko" was Mixtec for "Skip to Next Comment".

Richard said...

"And I like the way these schoolboys put on real shirts, shirts with collars, to do their TV interview."

You noticed that too. I thought they came across smart and classy. They have a bright future I hope.

Gary said...

God I'm so happy that I never grew up to have to sit through a college law class.

Remember back when when everybody was sayin' that lawyers were going to ruin this country?

Mission accomplished.

Lincolntf said...

"you have a reading assignment: Justice Thomas in the Bong Hits for Jesus case:"

Here's a shocker for ya' Ann, conservatives can disagree with Justice Thomas, too. It's called diversity of thought and is apparently a revolutionary concept in partisan politics. I'm hoping it'll catch on.

What really strikes me about your "ban 'em all" stance is more social than political. It recalls for me again the strange transition of the "hippie love chick" generation to the "zero tolerance as the first resort" generation.
As to uniforms at school, I find that far more palatable, and potentially beneficial, than the ban on individually expressive clothing. As to the "it's disrespectful to wear a U.S. flag logo" folks, I suggest they head to their nearest PX and see what they sell in their "casual wear" section.
Good enough for them, good enough for me.

Darcy said...

I agree with Althouse on the idea that schools should have the dress code she suggested. It's common sense in so many ways.

BUT! If the school was displaying or encouraging Mexican flags all over the place on school grounds in celebration of what has become more of a political statement/movement, then I applaud the kids that wore the American flag in the protest of it.

And I thank them for their common sense and patriotism.

Paco Wové said...

"Remember back when when everybody was sayin' that lawyers were going to ruin this country?"

Personally, I'm pretty sure it's Colleges of Education that are going to ruin this country.

Or maybe that should be past tense.

Ann Althouse said...

"God I'm so happy that I never grew up to have to sit through a college law class."

It's not college, sweetheart. It's law school. We challenge you... with text... and Socratic questions. And you don't get to "sit through" it.

"What really strikes me about your "ban 'em all" stance is more social than political. It recalls for me again the strange transition of the "hippie love chick" generation to the "zero tolerance as the first resort" generation. As to uniforms at school, I find that far more palatable, and potentially beneficial, than the ban on individually expressive clothing...."

Listen to yourself. Somehow you don't think uniforms are a ban on individually expressive clothing. That makes no sense.

Ann Althouse said...

The school authorities who are close to the problem deserve some respect, at least to the point of recognizing that they know the level of violence and discord in the school. It's quite possible that the Hispanic and non-Hispanic students are seriously antagonistic and the situation needs to be cooled down. That doesn't excuse violating rights, but viewpoint neutral restrictions don't violate rights. And viewpoint discrimination isn't always unconstitutional. I would like to know the whole story here. Was there additional taunting and bullying from the group of boys who chose to wear flag shirts on the same day?

Moose said...

Ann,

The issue is why it was necessary for the principal to treat this as a gang-like problem. Clearly there is tension between the hispanics and the anglos in this school. Clearly they cannot control the hispanics, so they choose to control the anglos. What does that say about the 2 sides involved, and the administration?

Hispanics in the US, particularly in large urban centers with substantial hispanic population are exceedingly in your face with their heritage and resist assimilation. And when I say resist assimilation, I'm not talking about people of Irish descent wearing "Kiss me I'm Irish" tshirts.

From a legal standpoint, you're probably spot on - from a social standpoint, you're missing the forest for the trees...

Lincolntf said...

Foolish consistencies are the hobgoblin of little minds.

Mikio said...

All the right-wingers who think this was about disrespecting the American flag are such idiots, which is virtually all of them. It absolutely was not about that, you moronic babies. I'm not going to repeat what it was actually about because it'll just bounce off your solid bone skulls like the other bazillion times it’s been explained to you. I'll just say this: you're total hypocrites for complaining about others being oversensitive and offended because you yourselves are being oversensitive and offended but are too fucking cluelessly unaware of yourselves and reality to get that. I truly appreciate everything that pisses you off that doesn't piss me off.

Oh, and Althouse, I take back what I said about you in my last post about a week ago where I called you and your banner quote fake. You’ve got some liberal cred with me now over this past week, especially with this blog post. Here’s hoping to see more of this better side of you!

Paco Wové said...

See, Mikio, there's that doucheyness again.

Darcy said...

Mikio said: I'm not going to repeat what it was actually about because...

I'd actually like to know what you think celebrating this "holiday" here in America is about. And compare it to how they celebrate it in Mexico too, please.

Amartel said...

This notion of geographical justice is nonsense. The Aztec and Mayan empires were central American empires. Aztlan is a made-up place, invented by La Raza activists in the 60s-70s. When the Spanish came, they took central American Indians north, as slaves, to what is now California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas. This lovely tradition was continued by the Mexicans, and to the great detriment of the actual native people of northern America. To the extent that the immigrants had a claim to CA, NM, AZ, or TX, they lost it in a war. Done and over long ago. Reconquista is not an Indian movement; it's a "racial" power play dressed up in Indian clothes for sympathy purposes. So which schoolchildren are being "used" for political purposes, really? Also, who are the "minority" students in this school, really? Part of the outrage is that the school officials sided with the students who are clearly in the majority, and suppressed the minority viewpoint. Lastly, flag-on-shirt is pretty standard these days. The unintended consequence of hippie flag-as-apparel abuse=patriotic flag-as-apparel celebration.

Moira Breen said...

dbp: Either that, or the honesty to admit that the South West will one day be part of Mexico again.

The attitude of the HS girls that there is some equivalence between the 4th of July and Cinco de Mayo, in the United States! shows at least that part of the population going down the path to civil war or revolutionary war (depending on who wins)


Rialby: They are different in that, unlike any other immigrant group to the US, they actually have a somewhat legitimate case that large tracts of land is Mexico. Sure, they lost a war. That doesn't matter to them though.

Is this half-way to the honest admission that dbp is seeking?

A little honesty from what Jason's calling the class of "educrat libtards" would be nice. (Not lumping you in here, Rialby, just using your remark as a springboard.) Or maybe "clarification" or "consistency" would be better words - because Mexicans can't at one and the same time be just like every other wave of immigrants in our history, so no big deal as far as assimilation and national unity go, and special and different and justifiably separatist.

Not that I'd credit the "educrat libtards" with having thought through the consequences of pushing identity politics decade after decade - not beyond "whenever tensions arise blame the gringo", anyway.

What the Aztlanistas don't realize is that they're already livin' the dream - Washington has become as corrupt, oligarchical, and dysfunctional as Mexico, it just has a little more civic capital to cannibalize before the country will be "just like home"!

wv: exotowe. A blonde from elsewhere.

Moira Breen said...

Paco: See, Mikio, there's that doucheyness again.

Shouldn't that be "douchiness"? Wonder what the OED prescribes.

wv: treati. Written to formalize a truce between warring tribes of Cyndis and Tiffanis.

blake said...

1) As others have pointed out, 5/5 is a BS celebration. It's minor in Mexico, so why celebrate it here.

2) The use of "minority" is dubious. Latinos are a plurality a close to it in many California counties.

A "neutral ban" sounds great, but how come it's only ever mentioned in the context of someone expressing American patriotism and gang colors?

blake said...

When did a flag on a T-shirt become a way to respect the flag?

The '80s.

I'm wearing one right now. It's got four American flags on it from different times. Love it.

Mikio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
blake said...

I would like to know the whole story here. Was there additional taunting and bullying from the group of boys who chose to wear flag shirts on the same day?

Good lord, Althouse. This is another boner (Christ).

200 Latino kids go on to march on city hall and you wonder if the four lone American flag wearers engaged in taunting and bullying.

The Principal sides with the foreign nationals and your "go to" is that the white kids stepped over some line.

I'll clue you in: Had they done so, they'd have been expelled. But that's a double-standard. I'll bet money that any provocation went the other way.

When the hell did you get so damn PC?

Mikio said...

Darcy -
I'd actually like to know what you think celebrating this "holiday" here in America is about. And compare it to how they celebrate it in Mexico too, please.

Who cares? That it apparently annoys you is what's telling and relevant. Why piss on their excuse to celebrate one day of the friggin' year even if it isn't observed in Mexico? It's not like it's a national holiday here which I guarantee we liberals would be against too. But it’s just an innocent little celebration like St. Patrick’s day. And what’s that based on? Some guy who drove the snakes out of Ireland. Cheers! Who cares? But right-wingers are okay with the Irish. Not Mexicans though. Oh no. Must try to offend them which wearing American flag apparel on that day perfectly expresses. Yep. Bigoted assholes.

Moira Breen said...

Moose: Clearly there is tension between the hispanics and the anglos in this school. Clearly they cannot control the hispanics, so they choose to control the anglos.[...]

Yup. Seems to be a lot of that going around these days. Put the hammer down on the party you're not afraid of, and pretend you're being just and prudent.

From a legal standpoint, you're probably spot on - from a social standpoint, you're missing the forest for the trees...

Yup.

blake: Good lord, Althouse. This is another boner (Christ).

Yup.

Darcy said...

@Mikio

I gave you a chance to explain why you thought American schools should encourage the celebration of this "holiday" here. You claimed to have superior knowledge of it that was too much for our thick skulls.

Instead, you chose to be a dick. Again. (I actually don't know if you're male or female, but you're still a dick, regardless.)

Well played.

Jason said...

If I wore an American flag T-shirt at a St. Patrick's Day celebration I'd be welcomed with open arms.

Apparently this particular clump of Mexican Americans hasn't achieved that level of maturity yet. That's their problem.

If the Mexican kids can sport Mexican flags, the American kids have the exact same right to wear an American flag, and for the exact same reasons as the Mexican kids - because the freedom of expression applies equally to both groups.

Mikio, you're an idiot.

The simple act of wearing the likeness of an American flag, in an American school, is in no way whatsoever 'disrespectful' of Mexico, any more than the simple act of wearing the likeness of a Mexican flag (or an Irish flag) is disrespectful to the United States.

If these people are as dumb as you are, Mikio, and are so stupid to think that wearing an American flag in an American school on ANY day, Cinco de Mayo or not, is 'pissing' on their holiday, then these are ignorant fuckheads who deeply, deeply deserved to be disrespected anyway. My view of these people, and of you, can only be accurately described as utter contempt.

What is disrespectful is a state employee in an American school using state authority to suppress the expression of American patriotism while allowing the same expression among Mexicans.

What is DISRESPECTFUL to the American flag is forcing children to turn their t-shirts inside out to conceal it.

Too bad it's too late to have a commemoration of the anniversary of the Battle of San Jacinto this year. A great day in American history.

I'd LOVE to see some libtard heads explode.

Ralph L said...

But right-wingers are okay with the Irish.
The hell we are. I wear orange on March 17th.
Not Mexicans though. Oh no.
That's only because they're brown, oily, and uncut.
Must try to offend them

If they're offended by American flags, perhaps they should go home?

I'm much less offended by Mexicans celebrating a foreign holiday than by the school people kowtowing to them.

Oligonicella said...

Ann Althouse --

"The school authorities who are close to the problem deserve some respect, at least to the point of recognizing that they know the level of violence and discord in the school."

The school authorities are part of the problem, the deserve no respect. The correct response should have been to tell the Cinco de Mayo celebrators to grow some skin.

kcom said...

But right-wingers are okay with the Irish.

I thought the rule of thumb was "No Irish need apply". When did that change?

But seriously, wearing an American flag to any St. Patrick's Day celebration here in the US would cause zero problems. No one would care. No one would take it as a sign of disrespect. Now, perhaps if you wore a British flag someone might take offense to that or feel some animosity. Because, you see, the Irish have a long history of conflict with the English.

The same ought to be true of Cinco de Mayo or any other celebration of foreign heritage in the US. American flags should be welcome. We're in America and our flag is part of our history. If you want to add to our history by celebrating a Mexican holiday, fine, but it in no way can or should replace our American symbols. See the link I included above of the Norwegian and American flags side-by-side.

Oh no. Must try to offend them which wearing American flag apparel on that day perfectly expresses.

No, it doesn't express that, perfectly or otherwise. You're just making stuff up. If someone wanted to try to offend Mexicans on Cinco de Mayo they would wear shirts with French flags on them. The battle commemorated was between France and Mexico. They were the two antagonists involved. The US had nothing to do with it. You're argument is lame and doesn't fit the facts. Big surprise.

kcom said...

Of course, I meant "your" argument.

Mikio said...

Darcy -
I gave you a chance to explain why you thought American schools should encourage the celebration of this "holiday" here. You claimed to have superior knowledge of it that was too much for our thick skulls.

I don’t know how American schools celebrate Cinco de Mayo nowadays, but I suspect it’s no different than when I was a kid growing up in SoCal in the ’70s and ’80s which as far as I can recall consisted of some Mexican food items on the lunch menu and maybe some decorations. I honestly can’t understand what on earth you’re talking about this for when the issue is about sending kids home who refused to turn their shirts inside out that were clearly bigoted provocations as clear as having T-shirts that said in block letters: “SCREW YOU MEXICANS AND YOUR LITTLE HOLIDAY.” That’s exactly what those America flag shirts were saying. The skinny little slow-talking bigot boy on that Fox clip said as much himself by comparing his wearing of the American flag shirt to be the same as Mexicans wearing Mexican flag shirts on the 4th of July which he claimed to have seen but I suspect he’s lying because Drudge and Fox would headline such photos every 4th of July if that were the case. Of course now we may see it this upcoming 4th of July in response to these little shitbirds and their massive support from right-wing America.

Incidentally, what I'm calling right-wingers boneheaded for is for thinking this story is about disrespecting the America flag when it's not. And a few other things, but primarily that.

Darcy said...

@Mikio

I've got news for you: It is never, ever "bigoted" to wear clothing bearing the American flag in America. Assuming the flag is not upside down or some disrespectful nonsense like that. That you think so is the moronic thinking here.

But thanks for the explanation. Enlightening!

Ann Althouse said...

Here's a news article from 1971 about the controversy over improper use of the flag. It includes a story of an 18-year-old guy who was arrested and charged with defiling the flag for wearing an American flag shirt. (He was ordered to "attend naturalizations proceedings in Federal court, to write an essay on 'What teh American Flag Means to Me, Citizenship and Freedom,' and to stay away from West Bank" (West Bank being a part of Minneapolis).

I vividly remember the disputes of that time. this sort of hippie-wear really upset people who cared about the flag... and it was intended to upset them.

A.G. said...

The school authorities who are close to the problem deserve some respect... It's quite possible that the Hispanic and non-Hispanic students are seriously antagonistic and the situation needs to be cooled down. That doesn't excuse violating rights, but viewpoint neutral restrictions don't violate rights.

What if "viewpoint neutral restrictions" are simply intended to limit the free speech of a disproportionately large group of individuals?

Say an inner city school with a large number of black students has a white principal. The principal sees that many black students are wearing "black pride" type shirts. He decides to ban all writing on shirts- by stating that he's concerned about potential violence between blacks and whites at his school.

Unless there have been violent confrontations already, however, aren't a lot of people going to question his inner motives (i.e., that as a white man he might simply be squashing the free speech of a large group of blacks on purpose because he's personally offended by it)?

That's my problem with the Cinco de Mayo case- you have a Hispanic principal making the white students remove their shirts. Obviously, that in itself doesn't prove anything, but how do we know that he had a legitimate concern about school violence instead of a personal desire to limit the white student's free speech (especially the free speech of respecting your own flag in your own country)? School administrators are always banning free speech for personal political reasons, and preventing people they dislike (like Ann Coulter, etc.) from speaking on campuses.

And further, if there wasn't any violence between the whites and Hispanics at his school before, isn't he simply making a semi-racist assumption that the whites were going to cause fights to break out because they chose to wear the flag shirts?

Moira Breen said...

Mikio: But right-wingers are okay with the Irish.

Bloody Irish. Ruin of this country.

blake said...

A.G. ...a Hispanic principal making the white students remove their shirts.

No, A.G., you don't get it! It was the white kids who were the troublemakers! White people are always the oppressors.

Just ask the hippie chick.

Darcy said...

LOL, Moira! I have a sister named Moira. (Irish, too.)

Mikio said...

Darcy -
I've got news for you: It is never, ever "bigoted" to wear clothing bearing the American flag in America. Assuming the flag is not upside down or some disrespectful nonsense like that. That you think so is the moronic thinking here.

Yes, you think that because you think one of the following which are all dead wrong:

a. that it's impossible for the wearing of an American flag shirt to send the message: "SCREW YOU MEXICANS AND YOUR LITTLE HOLIDAY"
b. that the message is possible, but it wasn't sent by the boys in this story
c. that the message was sent by the boys in this story, but there's nothing bigoted about it

Thinking any one of these makes you wrong and a bonehead.

Kev said...

If I hear one more mealy-mouthed school administrator utter the word "respect..." These are the ones in charge of educating "America's future?"

That's part of the problem; school administrators aren't in charge of educating anyone anymore, because they're not required to continue teaching after they get their "promotion." The result is that many schools are being run by people who haven't taught in 10, 20, 30 years, so they have no idea what's really going on in the modern classroom. In most cases, the only students they ever encounter on a regular basis are the two extremes: The chronic troublemakers and the high-achievers who occasionally get recognized for winning academic decathlon/the state track meet/whatever.

It also means the non-teaching administrators have a lot of time on their hands to sit around worrying about the worst-case scenarios ("What if a race riot breaks out at our school on my watch?"). I'm not saying that they shouldn't be prepared for these scenarios--far from it--but that they spend so much time away from actual classrooms and too much time around other administrators that I truly believe most of them think that not only will this worst-case scenario happen at their school, but that it's going to happen today, in a matter of minutes. And ultimately, they make cowardly decisions that kick the problem at hand down the road and seem designed mostly to protect their ownselves from lawsuits.

So what's the solution here? I see a two-pronged one:

1) Require every administrator to teach one class a day, in addition to whatever it is they do. This allows the schools to be run by an active, engaged teacher who actually has a handle on what's going on in schools now instead of 30 years ago, when they last taught.

2) Toughen the rules to allow for suspension/expulsion of students who actually cause the trouble (violence, etc.) without the school being subjected to litigation for "racism" in cases where the perpetrators might be members of a minority group. What (hopefully soon-to-be ex-) Vice-Principal Rodriguez did--sending home the flag-wearers who might cause the Mexican students to become violent (because those kids can't control themselves?) was cowardly and ridiculous.

From Inwood said...

Sidebar, perhaps, but I've often wondered why "brave" adults speaking truth to power by wearing a Che T shirt, don't wear a Mohammed (Muhammad?) T shirt.

Ralph L I always wear something Green on July 12.

A.G. said...

blake, I know- that is the implicit narrative here, whether anybody wants to admit it or not: these are just "boys" out there "lookin' fer a fight" by wearing their "stuff" versus the calm principal concerned about violence breaking out because some students are offended by seeing- gasp!- a depiction of an American flag in a US school.

Shouldn't the principal really be speaking to the students who were offended by the flag depictions, and counseling them to get over their hyper-sensitive reactions? Geez, in the real world, they are going to encounter all sorts of potentially controversial, offensive things- why is he coddling them?

Darcy said...

@Mikio:

d.) None of the above ludicrous, lefty, America-hating views/assumptions.

And I'm done, m'kay? My mind doesn't bend that way. If you want to call that boneheaded, so be it.

GMay said...

I think this quote I came across sums it up best:

"It takes a special type of lunacy to think that in America the American flag is a provocative symbol that needs to be banned to maintain order."

Seriously, we're equating wearing this to gang colors? Did the school show respect and refuse to run the Stars and Stripes up the flagpole on 5/5?

I'll chalk this up to the first time I've seen the blogger swing and miss.

Moira Breen said...

blake: No, A.G., you don't get it! It was the white kids who were the troublemakers! White people are always the oppressors.

Bloody white people. Ruin of this country.


wv: hypen. "There is no room in this country for hypenated Americanism. A hypenated American is not an American at all."

Jason said...

Mikio,

Let's assume the worst... for the sake of argument. The kids PLANNED to "disrespect" Cinco de Mayo by wearing US flag replicas.

So fucking what? I'll disrespect any holiday I like. AND any country. Welcome to America, Libtard.

You're still an idiot, and your argument holds no water even if you accept your postulates. You just have a hard-on for suppressing expression you don't like.

You damn libtards are just earth-toned fascists, the lot of you.

You shits wouldn't recognize American liberty or REAL liberalism if it bit you on the ass.

GMay said...

mikio steps all over it: "Yes, you think that because you think one of the following which are all dead wrong:

a. that it's impossible for the wearing of an American flag shirt to send the message: "SCREW YOU MEXICANS AND YOUR LITTLE HOLIDAY"


This is called projection. Now grow up and stop sucking people into your problems.

"b. that the message is possible, but it wasn't sent by the boys in this story"

When you, or the Professor, manage to demonstrate how displaying the American flag on American soil (Sorry Professor, references to the WWII generation's feelings on the subject aren't cutting it), then maybe you'll have a coherent argument.

"c. that the message was sent by the boys in this story, but there's nothing bigoted about it"

Maybe when you're able to make an argument without the reflexive use of the term "bigot", most readers will be able to take you seriously.

"Thinking any one of these makes you wrong and a bonehead.

Here's the boneheaded thing - warping the English language to project your insecurities in the most insulting manner you're able.

Grow up and try again.

Kev said...

Shouldn't the principal really be speaking to the students who were offended by the flag depictions, and counseling them to get over their hyper-sensitive reactions? Geez, in the real world, they are going to encounter all sorts of potentially controversial, offensive things- why is he coddling them?

Exactly. And thinking about that could cause some people to jump to other conclusions as well--say, perhaps, that Vice-Principal Rodriguez (who, unless he was adopted, could be assumed to have at least a few drops of Hispanic blood somewhere in his lineage) was sticking up for "his own kind" instead of acting like the vice-principal of the entire school.

(And I didn't say that I personally believe that, mind you. I just chalk it up to him being a typical bonehead school administrator who needs to be sternly reprimanded and, as I said earlier, required to teach a class every day.)

LonewackoDotCom said...

Interesting: there's a last name "cocean". Does "rcocean" stand for "r cocean", or something else?


I wonder: is this the Kirk Parker who comments above?

In any case, perhaps that Kirk Parker would be willing to provide more details on the issues he has.

A.G. said...

Kev, I agree- and what would happen then if students did "jump to conclusions" because things don't seem even-handed on the surface here? I would think that this might lead to even more distrust and conflict between the whites and Hispanics at the school, if it indeed exists.

My .02 cents would be that any viewpoint neutral restriction imposed in a multicultural school district with ethnic conflicts should really be decided by vote of the citizens in the community, in order to eliminate the possibility of individual bias.

Ralph L said...

From Inwood, you traitorous Jacobite, are you in New Jersey?

I'll never go over to the Scarlet Woman.

William said...

I understand that liberals believe that tolerance is a higher virtue than patriotism. But why shouldn't tolerance be extended to the Anglo students? I don't see how these small deviations from the PC norm can be characterized as bigotry....The white student whom the remarkably dense Mikio characterized as a bigot is, in fact, half Mexican. Are assimilated Hispanics to be treated as Tio Tomases and put down the way black students are for "acting white". The vulnerable minority here are those Mexican students who wish to say adios to five hundred years of plunder, rape, revolution, and more plunder and get on with the better way of life that America offers......I'm of Irish descent. I consider my ethnic identity more as a neurosis than a culture. I'm grateful that my grandparents' grandparents moved here and tried to break the cycle of futility and failure that was Irish life for so long.

gbarto said...

"The simple act of wearing the likeness of an American flag, in an American school, is in no way whatsoever 'disrespectful' of Mexico, any more than the simple act of wearing the likeness of a Mexican flag (or an Irish flag) is disrespectful to the United States."

This assumes that the Cinco de Mayo partisans are respecting of the United States. What if the reason they're so offended is that they think those who sport the American flag have as negative an opinion of Mexicans as they have of the United States?

Revenant said...

clearly bigoted provocations as clear as having T-shirts that said in block letters: “SCREW YOU MEXICANS AND YOUR LITTLE HOLIDAY.” That’s exactly what those America flag shirts were saying.

Even if that was the message intended by the simple act of wearing an American flag, the message "screw you Mexicans and your little holiday" deserves exactly the same legal protections as the message "I am celebrating Cinco de Mayo".

Anyone who disagrees can fuck off back to whatever country they came from. Here in America, free speech includes the right to offend.