March 12, 2010

"They're professionals, musicians and housewives."

"They're frustrated liberal activists, disheartened conservatives and political newborns. They're young and old, rich and poor, black, white and all shades of other."

It's the Coffee Party:
Born on Facebook just six weeks ago, the group boasts more than 110,000 fans, as of Friday morning. The Coffee Party is billed by many as an answer to the Tea Party (more than 1,000 fewer fans), a year-old protest movement that's steeped in fiscal conservatism and boiling-hot, anti-tax rhetoric."

This new group calls for civility, objects to obstructionism and demands that politicians be held accountable to the people who put them in office.

"The government has become so broken that the will of the people has been lost in the political game," said Stacey Hopkins, 46, coordinator of the Atlanta, Georgia, chapter. "And the only voices you're hearing are the ones of those who are screaming the loudest...."
So, an un-hot movement. Kind of almost the same as no movement at all. But it has more Facebook fans. I'm wondering how this works. Everyone sits around coolly at their computer or perhaps goes to a coffeehouse and hangs out with other people, and they are all very polite and placid.

***

I'm so sick of getting email invitations to become a "fan" of a damned Facebook group. You get some Facebook friends and that triggers these endless, automatic invitations to become a "fan" of whatever group they join. If that's the modus operandi of the Coffee Party, I have all the more reason to think of these people as lame and their numbers — counted in Facebook fans — as consisting of people who friend too much and respond to meaningless prompting. Perhaps they do it to be polite. And, in that case, they have their movement that's about being civil. How very nice for them, and horribly meaningless for us.

119 comments:

Seven Machos said...

Having a million Facebook fans will get you a ride on the subway here in Chicago if you also have $2.00.

Paddy O. said...

"I'm so sick of getting email invitations to become a "fan" of a damned Facebook group."

Hey! That sounds like a great Facebook group to join.

Scott said...

I cancelled my facebook and myspace accounts. What a huge waste of time. I don't want virtual friends, I want real ones that I can meet in real places and have real dinner with real food.

False intimacy sucks.

Scott said...

Twitter sucks too. I really don't want to know what Ann Althouse had for lunch.

Wahrheit said...

The part that makes my antennae twitch is repeated references to "obstructionism." In other words, those nasty Party of No people who won't vote for the health care bills, or for that matter, are against more big government in any way.

I thought part of the duty of representatives was "obstructing" bad legislation. I guess I'm hopelessly old-fashioned

ricpic said...

Yup, nothing like being lectured on the practice of civility by goon squad lefties. It's like Vicki telling us she loves civility. Say the magic word and it wipes out your past spews.

Original Mike said...

Yeah, I was going to post on "obstructionism" in the previous thread, but I'll do it here. Voting "no" on something you think is bad for the country is obstructionism? Do people who make this argument realize how dumb it makes them sound? Whom do they think they're convincing?

Sigivald said...

And its founder is a registered Democrat lobbyist who was pushing Obama in the last election.

The "will of the people" via an Obama supporter Democrat lobbyist? Sounds like what the People are already rejecting in the polls and via those evil "tea parties".

Paul Zrimsek said...

Yeah, we saw in the "Hispanic rebellion" comments just how much Victoria loves civility.

John A said...

I object to another trend in re Facebook.

Companies offering a coupon if you "befriend" them.

I may like a product, and a coupon might be nice, but offering a fifty-cent bribe for touting your product to everyone I can think of is insulting.

Ann Althouse said...

What some folks really want is for the other side to be "civil," ie, placid and uncomplaining, while they get all the things they want.

Seven Machos said...

Remember when Democrats and leftists were being all obstructionist over the Iraq War, and Samuel Alito, and Social Security reform, and before that welfare reform, and free trade, and...

victoria said...

And, Ann, your problem with that is? Republicans did it for years,complaining that those of us opposed to the Iraq war were "unpatriotic" and "un-American". Payback is a bitch.

Vicki from Pasadena

Paddy O. said...

"Payback is a bitch."

Yes, but it's not civil.

Gotta choose one or the other.

victoria said...

Hmmmm. One or the other. You first. Neither party has chosen the civility route, I may have to take that one. For those like Ric, this will be a perceived change. For those who know me, not really.

Vicki from Pasadena

Michael said...

Check back w/ the Coffee Party in six months. Or two for that matter. There is no there there.

Seven Machos said...

Victoria -- Who said protesting the Iraq War was unpatriotic or un-American? Name two people.

Sorry. You are confused. What was said was: I am not unpatriotic or un-American for protesting this war. Don't call me unpatriotic you bad old conservatives!.

traditionalguy said...

Victoria...I seriously always wondered why anti-Bush Democrats said people thought they were being unpatriotic. I never thought that. Their fear of being called that must have been in the conscience of the people doing the protesting. In a narrow view a few protesters were occaisionally, in frustration of spending so much money, saying out loud that they wanted the US military to lose and be killed, which certainly made the Dems no friends outside San Francisco and Chicago.

AJ Lynch said...

Shouldn't Coffee people be the ones who are really amped up and excitable?

bagoh20 said...

"Facebook fan" means someone clicked with their finger on an icon. Wow, what activism and energy!

The Tea Party activism has manifested itself as missing work and driving or flying sometimes across county to demonstrate, writing and calling congress, organizing hundreds of separate local groups. It has scared the hell out of every left-leaning journalist, and most politicians of both parties. It has changed the entire political landscape through pure grass roots effort and individual conviction.

The Tea Party is the most diverse activist group I have ever seen in my life in terms of backgrounds, professions, ages, education, race and even ideas. I suspect there is very little of this kind of diversity or depth to the Coffee Party.

There is simply no comparison: the Coffee Party is a on line social network group, which is really only a virtual group that does little more than commiserate, like ladies at the beauty parlor.

Scott said...

The left hasn't had an original idea since the 19th century. Exhibit A: Coffee Party

TosaGuy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LonewackoDotCom said...

I covered the Coffee Party a month ago, weeks before any bloggers discussed them. Their main leaders are a couple of filmmakers that I first posted on in November 2007; see my 9500 Liberty page. Not only was and is their backstory off all major bloggers' radar, and not only have none of those major bloggers linked to my past coverage of them, but when I pointed out that they had a questionable backstory, one tier 2 blogger deleted the comment. And, that's despite the fact that their backstory could be used against the CP. It's difficult getting shown up.

P.S. The two "parties" are in at least two ways on the same side: one of the people that 9500 promoted is linked to the Kochtopus, and the Kochtopus is one of the string-pullers on the teaparties. (Search that term if you aren't familiar with it). The other thing they have in common is being on the wrong side or ignoring the imm. issue. Neither group represents U.S. interests.

mvl said...

They sit around either screaming about Sarah Palin at the top of their lungs or sit around meekly whispering in NPR voices.

k*thy said...

My FB invites come through my FB page, not emails. I’m guessing you could turn that off and save yourself a lot of grief. Most (and this Coffee Party falls into this) I choose not to pursue b/c of their extremelameness.

And kind of on the same note with civility, a suggestion, you don’t have to go to every fight you’re invited to.

madawaskan said...

Republicans do handicap themselves, maybe because of the Liberal bias of the press.

A lot of the problem is to fight Democrats, they need street smarts. Unfortunately the republican party rarely gets a candidate that fits that bill.

There was one -once upon the time but he couldn't get through the primaries.

I've been around the active duty military for decades.

What the Democrats did-what's the big deal with calling them unpatriotic?

We can start with Democrats challenging the votes of the military serving their country overseas.

What the hell do you call that?

Unpatriotic. Is that an "unfair" charge?

How about when Dick Durbin compared the troops to Nazis?

How about when Harry Reid declared the war LOST while troops were dying overseas.

The list goes on...

Big damn deal in the trade off you got called -

Unpatriotic. That's a bargain your party made with the devil.

Own it.

TosaGuy said...

If you read through Annabel Park's twitter you will find that she is a KosKid -- (sarcasm on) the epitome of polite political discourse (sarcasm off)

c3 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
c3 said...

Victoria;
You posted:
Civility, love it.

then this:
Payback is a bitch.

then:
One or the other. You first. Neither party has chosen the civility route, I may have to take that one. For those like Ric, this will be a perceived change. For those who know me, not really.

You do understand that your follow up comments completely negated your initial statement, right?

Your love affair with civility appears to be somewhat casual

Alex said...

You know about the whole lefties complaining about their patriotism being questioned? They doeth protest too much...

Alex said...

Lefties who say that the teabaggers should be civil is like the Nazis telling the Jews to hurry faster into the gas chambers.

c3 said...

Read through the CNN piece. I loved this:
The 27-year-old social entrepreneur and nonprofit consultant works in sustainability

WHAT THE HELL!! Somehow this doesn't sound like the "entrepreneurs" I've met (let alone meets the definition of "work")

"Nonprofit consultant" !?!
so she doesn't earn anything?

victoria said...

Wow, as an example, the boys of Fox, O'Reilly and Hannity questioned people's loyalty to the country if anyone said anything against the war or Bush for that matter, especially at the start of the war. O'reilly got a little more informed along the way and actually voiced opposition to the war. Not Hannity. The "real" Americans supported the war, not us crazies on the coast(pick one). I still take great offense to those who believe that just because I am from the "city" and the "left coast" that I am not a good American. I can't tell you how it frosts me to hear people like Megyn Kelly interviewing Kid Rock and calling him a true patriot because he chooses to raise his child in Michigan and not in California. We have good values here, just like anywhere else. We are "real" and "True" Americans, just as much as anyone in Allentown, Pa or Seymour, Indiana.
So there.

Vicki from Pasadena ca

d-day said...

What some folks really want is for the other side to be "civil," ie, placid and uncomplaining, while they get all the things they want.

I tend to think that the so-called "Coffee Party" wants the Tea Party to be un-civil so they can marginalize them as fringy-types. Although really, apart from the LaRouchies with the Obama-in-a-Hitler-stache signs, what incivility is the Tea Party really guilty of? And if that's not enough, what incivility can we blame them for?

victoria said...

Mad, blah, blah, blah, liberal bias. Old, worn out, not relevant anymore. Complainers all.

Vicki from Pasadena

edutcher said...

The ultimate in astroturfing.

Ann Althouse said...

"They're professionals, musicians and housewives."

Sounds like lyrics to, "The Times they Are A-changin'". These people can't get away from the 60s.

What some folks really want is for the other side to be "civil," ie, placid and uncomplaining, while they get all the things they want.

The Soviets' definition of peace and the Democrats' definition of bipartisan. Now, the Lefties' definition of civility.

Scott said...

Hispanic Rebellion ... sigh ... I don't think Hispanics are revolting at all.

And I love it when the guys wear tight pants and high heel boots.

Ole!

:)


Careful, Titus will hear you.

victoria said...

And, Ann, your problem with that is? Republicans did it for years,complaining that those of us opposed to the Iraq war were "unpatriotic" and "un-American". Payback is a bitch.

Hate to tell you, but the ones claiming that were all Demos. Anytime anybody disagreed with Jean Francois Kerry, the first words out of his mouth were, "How dare you question my patriotism?".

I would have loved to hear some Republican actually call Teddy Kennedy or The Dick from Illinois traitors on the floor of the Senate. Too bad it never happened.

victoria said...

No balls, just bellyaching.

Vicki from Pasadena

The Crack Emcee said...

Ann Althouse, I love you. Not as much as Glenn Reynolds, but it's real love.

You're a free speech icon.

victoria said...

Suits the Congressional right more.

Vicki

The Crack Emcee said...

"Republicans did it for years,complaining that those of us opposed to the Iraq war were "unpatriotic" and "un-American". Payback is a bitch."

So is being wrong on the war.

Alex said...

Victoria - the only one bellyaching is you.

Alex said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
victoria said...

Not me, man.

vicki

bagoh20 said...

There will be no general civility by either side. Get over it. Of course anyone is free to demonstrate their own. Nobody is stopping you.

kentuckyliz said...

Oh yeah, like the Boston Coffee Party, where they dumped all the coffee into the bay to make a tax protest to England.

(Can I borrow your history textbook? Doesn't show up in mine.)

I bet their un-Gadsen flag says "Please Tread On Me."

kentuckyliz said...

NPR voices

Schwedde Balls

victoria said...

Sorry, crack. Nothing you say will convince me that the Iraq war was a good one, a just war. Afghanistan, maybe.

Chatty today

Vicki

kentuckyliz said...

You also have to join a facebook group to track them (opposition research) or post nasty comments on the Wall. Why assume that number is all supporters?

victoria said...

kentuckyliz, my favorite SNL skit of all time. Makes me laugh.


Vicki

Scott said...

@edutcher: Is Titus hot? :)

@k*thy: "And kind of on the same note with civility, a suggestion, you don’t have to go to every fight you’re invited to."

If I were invited to a fight, I would be sure to ambush them as they made their way to the venue.

"Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!" --Big Guy in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

madawaskan said...

It's yet another Jeremy mutation.

Here's a clue, try to change your talking points.

sierra said...

..."objects to obstructionism and demands that politicians be held accountable to the people who put them in office." What utter nonsense. If politicians want to implement a policy to which most people are opposed, they must "obstruct" it if they are to keep the politicians "accountable."

Revenant said...

I would expect the "Coffee Party" to have a lot of supporters, as it is just the "do what Obama wants" party and around 50% of Americans like the guy. It is obviously not that hard to find a large body of people who agree with the party in power, at least in a democracy. :)

Sure, the "Coffee Party" is an astroturf thing, started by the Obama campaign. But it does reflect the reality that a lot of people either haven't figured out how bad Obama is for this country, or don't mind so long as they personally benefit from him.

Pogo said...

And I say fuck civility.

All it's gotten me is a socialist in the White House and Democrat hands so deep in my pockets I'm wondering if I should kiss them goodnight.

PatCA said...

Yeah, I would just turn off all email prompts in Preferences.

I just use FB to post video and photos for family.

jayne_cobb said...

Man the media is really pushing hard to try and get this group some publicity. I suppose at the very least this is a tacit admission that the Tea Parties have been fairly effective (imitation and all that).

My favorite part of this entire sham is how the founder's only job in the private sector was for the NYT (which they failed to mention in their story on it).

Paddy O. said...

"They're frustrated liberal activists, disheartened conservatives and political newborns. They're young and old, rich and poor, black, white and all shades of other."

The article doesn't answer the most pressing question this 'coffee party' raises.

Coffee is grown primarily in South America these days, a hotbed for socialist thinking.

Why do all these frustrated, disheartened newborns "coffee party members" hate America so much? What makes such people so civilly unpatriotic?

Dangerous Dreamer said...

I prefer to call them the "Chock Full Of Nuts" Party!

NewHam said...

If you ever wondered what it was like to live in Nazi, Germany and read Goebbels ... this is it.

Reading this made me throw up.

My country is gone.

Pogo said...

"The Coffee party" is so damned phony and twee, like Ira Glass in a pony tail.

pduggie said...

"frustrated liberal activists"

Frustrated that their agenda isn't progressing smoothly without obstruction

"disheartened conservatives"

who have given up on conservativism.

Those two words (frustrated/disheartened) were supposed to make you think that all sorts of people are in the coffe party, but its mostly just left siders.

William said...

"I'm so sick of getting email invitations to become a "fan" of a damned Facebook group."

Ann, I'm with you. I just delete.

By the way, I read that you were #14 or so on a list of conservative bloggers. On my list you're #1 -Instapundent comes in #2 because of the alphabet - but all three of us have a similar world view. And I've been reading both for years.

Not conservative, not liberal but something else. Perhaps Auganistian.

pst314 said...

Coffee Party USA = CPUSA ;-)

garage mahal said...

A coffee club is just like nazi germany. heh.

TosaGuy said...

The Coffee Party strikes me as a future entry in Stuff White People Like.

Sara (Pal2Pal) said...

If you search for Tea Party on Facebook, you will find about 500 listings, of which about 450 are individual areas that have a Tea Party group. Add those up and the Coffee Party looks exactly like what it is, a sham and an Astroturf organization being organized by the unions.

Their numbers tell me that it is made up of people without real jobs and who have way too much time on their hands.

And civility from a leftist? C'mon!

knox said...

What cracks me up is how very lame the concept of "Embrace the Government!!!" as your main tenet.

The website manifesto actually includes the line

We recognize that the federal government is not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will...

This is a group consisting of a bunch of hall monitors.

Nora said...

Yep, with the price of sitting in coffee house in today economy, it must be real people's party. These groupies must be very busy people as well. What a joke!

NewHam said...

"A coffee club is just like Nazi Germany."

Sig Heil!

There is no "coffee club" Garage, or can't you see that?

This is what a bunch of rich Starbucks liberals sitting around drinking $6 lattes surfing Facebook looks like.

The reference to Nazi Germany is meant to convey to the reader how closely CNN resembles the propaganda system that Joseph Goebbels created to support Adolph Hitler's subjugation of the German people.

CNN very closely resembles that apparatus and this "story" is but one example. It's puke-worthy.

The "Coffee Party" is completely virtual.

Garage, you really should read a history book every now and then so you don't make comments that reveal yourself to be a woefully uneducated quisling.

Then maybe somebody would take you seriously.

holdfast said...

I assume that if you hire a "nonprofit consultant", she will show you how to lose money in your business ,i.e. not make a profit.

So basically just another Democrat.

The impetus behind the tea party was fiscal conservatives (or at least folks who right now think that fiscal conservatism is urgent, even if they also self-identify as moderates, libertarians etc) who felt, correctly, that neither major party was doing anything towards fiscal conservatism. Since America is a two party state, the tea partiers have a choice between bring a useless Perot-style spoiler, or trying to exert some significant influence over the Republican party. Right now they appear to be using the threat of the former to achieve the latter, which is probably the best they can do.

Big Mike said...

We recognize that the federal government is not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will...

And will they still believe that after November, when the People rise up in their righteous wrath and take back the Congress?

holdfast said...

Big Mike - the GOP might get a 2-4 year lease on the House in November, but Big Govt Dems OWN the Federal bureaucracy, and that's what really matters. In eight years in office, GWB was unable to purge the worst elements from the CIA, let along HUD or DHS. That's where the real Dem power lies, and don't you forget it.

Pogo said...

"...our collective will..."

That phrase makes me want to hit somebody upside the head with a shovel.

Penny said...

It will be interesting to see how these folks operate over time. My guess is that missives will go out from the "top", asking members to share said missives with their other on line friends along with a suggested one or two line personal intro that says the opposition is "obstructing the process" and "uncivil" about x, or y, or z.

Simple repetition is not without it's merits, but it sure would be nice if the Coffee Party and the Tea Party find that they have something in common...if only their unhappiness with how things are going in Washington, DC.

Penny said...

""...our collective will..."

That phrase makes me want to hit somebody upside the head with a shovel."

But why, Pogo? In the democratic process, voting is still the bottom-line way we show our "collective will".

Funny how poorly it seems to be working out for everyone, no matter which side of the aisle they're on.

Blue@9 said...

I'm all for people joining any movement at appeals to them, but it's just kind of sad that the best these people could come up with is so obviously derivative. Seriously, Coffee Party? Why not just spell it out: Group of People Who Don't Like the Tea Party But Want to Emulate Their Success. What else is their motivating principle but reflexive opposition to (and yet cheap mimicry of) another, more popular group?

It's like those bizarre "Christian rock" bands. 'We're rock and roll too!' There's mimicry of styles, moves, even sound, but once they open their mouths it's readily apparent that they're not really rock and roll. Here, they can form a Facebook group, call themselves a political movement, etc., but it's apparent that they only exist as a bizarro version of the original. So not rock and roll.

Pogo said...

There is no such thing as a "collective" will.

It's a BS Marxist term, meant to conceal a grab for power.

They care for the 'collective' like a pimp cares for his ho's.

Penny said...

"It's a BS Marxist term, meant to conceal a grab for power."

Only if you allow the fringes to usurp the more common definition of "collective".

alwaysfiredup said...

Join the Cocoa Party! "We are 100% weedroots. No astroturf Obama-campaigning former New York Times employees in the Cocoa Movement, no sirree! No grassroots racist fascist redneck Neanderthal Teabaggers either! And no hyper-partisan strategists calling the shots in this movement. We are a spontaneous and collective expression of our desire to forge a culture of ludicrous propaganda that is entirely blame-oriented."

Jason said...

"Collective will."

Heh. They mispronounced "Vill!"

DADvocate said...

Sham populism is so fascist.

Fascism - the central ingredient to every liberal movement. The "will of the people" shtick is a purely fascist ploy.

The Tea Parties, including myself (I've marched twice), are saying quit ignoring us, we count too. The Coffee Party (tastes like mud because it was ground this morning) is saying ignore those people, WE are the will of the people. Liberal wolves in sheep's clothing.

Revenant said...

There is no such thing as a "collective" will. It's a BS Marxist term

"We are supported by the collective will of the world."

-- George Bush, closet Marxist, October 7, 2001

"Just a glance at history reveals our deepest strength: Every challenge Americans met together we've conquered. We've achieved every purpose to which we've applied our collective will."

-- Notorious commie sympathizer Ronald Reagan, January 19, 1983

reader_iam said...

Watching Maddow's interview of Park.

Noting the pledge of civility thing.

Thinking of 2006.

wv: visabife

God help me, I can't explain it yet--but that wv puts me in mind of a good chunk of the Young Adult sci-fi my son is so very enthusiastically and fondly plowing his way through.

reader_iam said...

(Also, I noted the Coffee Party thing quite a while ago. At least I'm consistent w/r/t the subject of hot-beverage parties.

And Rachel didn't disappoint: I knew she'd eventually use "coffee klatsch," [specifically, that phrasing] and indeed she did.)

wv: catig

Pogo said...

Rev:

Even Reagan made mistakes, no?

Penny said...

"Thinking of 2006."

Hey, reader. Always nice to see you. So what happened in 2006 that you related to this topic and Maddow's interview?

PWS said...

So it's not obstructionist b/c it's a bad bill? Well, how do we know why they're voting against it? Do they all think it's bad? Or are they obstructing? ..... Oh right, I forgot only the Republicans are sincere. How silly of me!

reader_iam said...

Penny: In 2006, there was an online civility thingie going on. Pledges, integrity, consensus and all that jazz, etc., were evoked and invoked--etc., etc.

I absolutely could be, can be and, often enough, am wrong. Still, I thought it was worth posting in remembrance of something from the memory hole most memorable on account of how quickly it was discarded (both in reality and from memory).

reader_iam said...

It seems to me that Rachel is trying to save lots of time by, essentially, putting the kibosh on Annabel Park's pie-in-the-sky thoughts of civility and consensus as even an effective strategy (and god forbid as an effective tactic).

Really, who could disagree?

Freeman Hunt said...

Funniest fan invitation I received from Facebook (name changed to protect the guilty):

"John Smith invites you to become a fan of John Smith."

Not tongue in cheek as far as I could tell.

reader_iam said...

Quite part from my comments heretofore, I want to say I absolutely love, love, love the title of this post. In fact, it's my favorite of the week.

(Please don't be [just reflexivel]y dull and humorless here: Try understanding why and how I can relate and yet still be profoundly amused, instead.

Or, well, don't.)

Nora said...

"Collective will" is not marxist term, but collective good is. Collective will is expressed in ellections. Collective good is something the giovernment claim to justify an impossition of something that goes against collective will, like most of Obama policies for example.

Penny said...

"Really, who could disagree?"

Well, surely not me, and most definitely not tonight. Off to a party of one.

Night all.

Pogo said...

"Men make their history themselves, but not as yet with a collective will or according to a collective plan or even in a definitely defined, given society."

Marx and Engels Correspondence
ENGELS London, January 25, 1894

Pogo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Xmas said...

Did I miss the civility in the last 8 years when people where calling Bush, Chimpy McBushitler, or "The WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD!" and Code Pink was out disrupting judicial confirmation hearings?

Anyway, 100,000 fans on Facebook is still less fans than those two great social movements "Can this pickle get more fans than Nickleback?" and "MY SISTER SAID IF I GET ONE MILLION FANS SHE WILL NAME HER BABY MEGATRON".

(And yes, the pickle has more fans than Nickleback, and it's looking like some baby is gonna be named Megatron.)

reader_iam said...

I think that the coffee-partiers are trying to resurrect what their like-minded people killed when proto tea-partiers tried, pre-partying and even with civility, to speak out but were told in no uncertain terms they should shut up--and, more, should never have spoken up to begin with.

Sow. Reap. Nature.

And so it goes.

Synova said...

The Cocoa Party is really funny. Love it.

About that "collective will" thing.

Collective will has no meaning. Majority rule does have meaning. We have a government that reflects majority rule tempered by law to protect the minority and the individual from majority tyranny.

So some group gains the majority, some idea gains the majority, and the majority is still limited in what it can impose on anyone.

Collective will, on the other hand, suggests that there is a singleness to the will... there's been an homogenization of individuals into a collective and into agreement.

Perhaps Pogo has a shovel I can borrow, because I'm right there with him.

(The use of "collective will" by Bush after 9-11 reflected a time when there was actually overwhelming support and overwhelming unity... briefly. Reagan's usage makes me think of Sun Tzu "The Tao causes the people to be fully in accord..." And I think that it does represent the power to prevail in instances when there is a singularity of purpose. In neither case do I think that Bush or Reagan were using "collective will" as a euphemism for "51% majority."

Pogo said...

Precisely.

madawaskan said...
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madawaskan said...
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madawaskan said...
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Revenant said...

Even Reagan made mistakes, no?

Except it isn't a mistake. "Collective will" is a normal part of the English language now, with no inherently Marxist meaning. You sound like those Obamoids constantly whining about "code words for racism".

And for those of you complaining about "collective will" on the grounds that there is no "will" commonly shared by everyone -- I expect you to cease using the terms "American values" and "human nature", too. :)

Revenant said...

(The use of "collective will" by Bush after 9-11 reflected a time when there was actually overwhelming support and overwhelming unity... briefly.

Well, no. There was overwhelming support for the invasion of Afghanistan in America. But worldwide, it polled worse -- yes, even in those days after 9/11 when popular mythology says the world united behind America -- than Obamacare does here in America.

And what's up with Pogo following up to this point with "precisely"? So "Marxist bullshit" automagically becomes truth if enough people agree with each other?

In neither case do I think that Bush or Reagan were using "collective will" as a euphemism for "51% majority."

They were using it the same way the "Coffee Party" uses it -- as a euphemism for "a lot of people think the way I do". Claiming the phrase is "BS Marxism" just makes the claimant sound unhinged.

Wahrheit said...

Rousseau--the "General Will." It could only be interpreted by the tiny governing elite. Not by the clingers and certainly not by the petit bourgeois. Marx and Co. just borrowed the concept.

Revenant said...

Plus what you found all of two examples?

I only looked for two. But finding even a single non-Marxist use of the phrase would obviously be sufficient to prove that its use is not inherently Marxist.

Most people with even a passing interest in politics on the other hand do associate the term "collective" with the Communist ideology

And people whose interest in politics extends deeper than the simple recognition of buzzwords know that the act of speaking of the desires, values, thoughts, or fears of the whole country is common all across the political spectrum.

the idiot Liberals that do choose to use that word

Uh huh. Take a look at your and Pogo's reaction to the Obama/chimp nonsense last year. Hm, how about that -- nothing but mockery of Obama and of the people who saw racism in the association.

You were right then. It is just that neither of you is capable of giving your political enemies the benefit of any doubt.

Mick said...

It's Alinsky, of course. "co-opt your opponent's argument".

Such a sad brainless group, even the "smart" one's. Their line of reasoning is never about what is good or resonable about about their policies. It's always a relativist reversion to the "you didn't complain when Bush..." or the ever-present " We already have Socialism, you get mail don't you? Are your parents on Medicare... You drive on roads, right?..." And I say, "uh, those are failures of government beaurocracy" Them--"But you used them rght, so you enjoyed socialism..." At that point I know that it is a futile excersize trying to teach a Pig to sing. There's not an original thought in their head, only relativist nonsense.

AllenS said...

Would anybody like to join me, AllenS, and form a Beer Party?

WV: lograkel

Low flying icky bird.

MadisonMan said...

You can disable the link between facebook and your email account. Highly recommended.

Omaha1 said...

The coffee party is obviously nothing like and completely unrelated to the angry white middle aged racists in the Tea Party. Thank goodness sanity has returned to our national debate!

rdkraus said...

I'd love to join you Allen, but you're in feckin Wisconsin.

Come to NY and you can be in the Manhattan Party. Would that be Makers Mark or Wild Turkey for you? On the rocks, or up?

Pogo said...

"It is just that neither of you is capable of giving your political enemies the benefit of any doubt."

I am playing by Democratic Party rules now.
No quarter is offered to them who offer none.

'Benefit of the doubt' got Obama elected and socialist health care and ruinous debt.

So, yes, you're correct, "collective will" can mean something very benign. But when leftists use the term, it best be understood by the taint of Marx, as that is their default position.

damikesc said...

I love how they made sure to mention that this is "organic" and TOTALLY not astroturf.

Honest

shana said...

Vicki from Pasadena, or anyone really, can you cite one example where a Bush administration official or prominent supporter said that disagreement with President Bush is unpatriotic?

Because there are lots of examples of Democrats and Obama admin officials saying opposition to them is unpatriotic. But it's rather more difficult to come up with such statements from Republicans or Bush admin officials. But hey, have at it.

WV: inain. Well, exactly.

kentuckyliz said...

Not just a Beer Party, a Free Beer Party! We'll tax the rich to pay for it! Sign me up!

Roll out the barrel....sing with me

Issob Morocco said...

I would like to invite you to join the Hot Lemonade On The Road To Hell Party. Nothing like a scalding wax cup of sour juice to quench those inclinations to be rational and common sensical.

Bottoms up and Cheers!

Revenant said...

I am playing by Democratic Party rules now. No quarter is offered to them who offer none.

So basically what you're saying is that you aren't worth listening to. Fair enough.

madawaskan said...

Revenant

It is just that neither of you is capable of giving your political enemies the benefit of any doubt.

To tell you the truth I jumped in at the tail end of this argument.

So I'm not sure in what context the term "collective" was used.

And in fact you took the two examples that you found out of context.

It's really as simple as-I don't think a Democrat should get the positive or benefit of that word as a code to their Left extremists without paying the price for it's the negative connotation.

It's a loaded word particularly for a Democrat and they should have to defend it's use. Any Republican would be held accountable for the equivalent by the Liberal press.

Instead of paying attention to the big picture Democrats and lawyers when they ask you to take the most benign meaning of a word while at the same time profiting from the other interpretation of that word are either trying to have their cake and eat it too, or practicing the art of obfuscation.

Pogo said...

Rev, you sho' got some kinda bee in yo' bonnet.

Hope you feel better soon.