November 23, 2009

"But keep going, Ann. Debunk them all. With facts, not spin."

Andrew Sullivan is still giving me assignments.

So let me give him one. It's only fair. Andrew Sullivan, what if, with the same intensity and standards you've aimed at Palin, you went through the things Barack Obama has said and written? (Pick a segment of his career that is equivalent to the period you examined of Palin's.) What kind of a list would you end of with?

You say:
[S]omething is very seriously wrong. This is not about destroying anyone. It is about saving a system that perpetrated an error as huge as this one. And we cannot save this system until we fully understand the depth of the scandal in front of us: that this clinically delusional person had a good chance of having her finger on the nuclear button. And still does if she is not fully vetted and understood. I intend to keep doing that until the whole truth is in front of us.

If you don't want to pursue that truth wherever it takes us, read someone else.
I'm into pursuing the truth, which is why I propose that you test your judgment and style of analysis with the assignment I've proposed. I know this would be time consuming, and it will be extremely hard to work up the enthusiasm about it that welled up naturally over Palin.

So maybe others can help out. Let's try to put together an Obama list that equates as well as possible with Sullivan's Palin list. Then his assignment can be to reflect on his project of exposing Palin's lies and his conclusion that there is something truly different about her, something clinically delusional.

***

As for my assignment, I'll look at a couple more items from Sullivan's list tonight when I have some extra time. I'm not inclined to "debunk" them. I'm not Palin's defender. I will look at the items and say what I think, with an eye toward Sullivan's assertion: whether we are dealing with a person who is not just the usual politico but clinically delusional.

UPDATE: Sorry I didn't get around to doing a couple more items tonight. I guess some people would say I lied.

244 comments:

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Po Mmi said...

Obviously, he had an impact on many people, but because his opponents are - generally speaking - incompetent, they couldn't counter-act him despite how easy it would be.

Sounds like Obama during the campaign.

Palladian said...

"And a lot of us who have appreciated what he produced in his early career are mortified by what he is doing today.

Ultimately, Sullivan's anti-Palin hate campaign isn't about Palin. It's about Sullivan. He knows it, we know it. And it's sadder than hell."

It is. Sullivan's writing shepherded me through my transition from thoughtless leftist to interested libertarian. I'll always be grateful for what he gave me through his writing, and sad to see that gift drain away through the years.

Palladian said...

"Privately, you never in a million years would trust the nuclear codes over to Palin over Obama, and you fucking know it. "

I don't trust anyone with those codes. Who could trust a human with the power to destroy civilization? But its the other things, our liberty, our economy, our history that I also don't trust to just anyone. To tell you the truth, no one who has run for that office in my adult life has seemed worthy of that awesome trust. Not Palin, not McCain, not Obama, not Dubya, not Clinton. It's always a leap of faith and a deadly gamble.

Po Mmi said...

Palin, Biden, Obama, McCain, Bush, Kerry, Cheney, Edwards, Gore...

Isn't it possible to have a national politics where people like this never have any chance of attaining that sort of power, stature, influence...?

Palladian said...

"@Palladian: My 25 year old boyfriend wishes he could do similar things to me. It's frustrating when two tops are in love with each other. *sigh*"

Yes, I know the feeling. But love transcends sexual roles, at least in my experience. I guess I'm lucky to always fall for bottom boys or to have the advantage of age and, ahem, length and width over my partners which converts them to bottom boys, but I would consider anything and any act for love.

Charles said...

A man like Sullivan wouldn't know the truth if it hit him like a freight train.

In fact, I think the man's so punch drunk he couldn't tell fact from fiction in his fairy castle.

You have to wonder when dealing with a man like Andrew Sullivan if something like 'truth' exists even in concept.

Laika's Last Woof said...

Mr. Sullivan is hardly in a position to question the sanity of the woman he's made into his personal fetish.
Sully's obsessions would make Eve Ensler blush.

Scott said...

So first you deflected Sully's request by saying he should apply this same standard to Obama. Then you went further, and stated you would only address Sully's request in the context of whether it's "clinical" delusion, which is intentionally missing the point.

The woman lies about things that can be easily fact checked in five seconds, and when called out on her fiction, she will actually insist that she didn't say what she clearly said. That is why Sully considers her to be delusional, all parsing of how "clinical" it is aside.

She's an empty vessel.

vbspurs said...

Po Mmi wrote:

Isn't it possible to have a national politics where people like this never have any chance of attaining that sort of power, stature, influence...?

This goes to my feeling since the late 80s, that NO INTERNATIONAL POLITICIAN of today, including the most recent ones, are worth a fig compared to the ones who came just before.

Reagan, Thatcher, Kohl, Mitterand hell even Mulrooney are ALL leaps ahead of Obama, Dubya, Clinton, Blair, Brown, Schröder, Merkel, Sarkozy, Chirac, and all the rest. Even the madmen of the recent past like Saddam seem inadequate compared to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao.

We live in an era of utter mediocrity in geopolitics.

Aloysius said...

Classic case of castration anxiety. Poor Andrew's manhood shrivels to invisible at the very thought of this uber-female and he turns delusional. It goes right to the roots of his deviancy.

algie said...

Andrew's Rant

If you don't agree with what I've said
You're some one who is likely inter bred
I scorn the hoi polloi
Instead to spread my joy
I listen to the voices in my head

....nnnn..'o.o'..uu!u....algie
Illegitimi nOn carborundum

vbspurs said...

The woman lies about things that can be easily fact checked in five seconds

Like conceiving and giving birth to her own child? As long as I live, I will NEVER forgive media for not debunking this first and most outrageous lie against her. They were disgusting and made us conservatives than much more on her side, than would've been the case.

A fatal FATAL mistake by liberals.

Cheers,
Victoria

GM Roper said...

As a licensed mental health professional with some 40 years experience, I'll not call Sully obsessed with Sarah Palin, but one does have to wonder why, if she really doesn't count, he is so worried that someone, somewhere just might think she is "The Right Stuff" for National Elective Office.

Sully, call a therapist... quick!

wv: reelli - yes, really!

GM Roper said...

As a licensed mental health professional with some 40 years experience, I'll not call Sully obsessed with Sarah Palin, but one does have to wonder why, if she really doesn't count, he is so worried that someone, somewhere just might think she is "The Right Stuff" for National Elective Office.

Sully, call a therapist... quick!

wv: reelli - yes, really!

Mark said...

Can someone explain to me why we are talking about Andrew Sullivan *again* ?

Arthur said...

Why do Obama's "lies"? Do Biden's. Now there's an assignment! And don't forget, as Andrew would say....he's a heartbeat away from having his finger on the button!

Hector Owen said...

That Sullivan post with the "thinly-veiled military dictatorship" is here now. The site looks just like the Atlantic, but from the URL, it's a personal site.

richard mcenroe said...

"I can't help but believe that someone who believes what Andrew Sullivan writes - and apparently believes himself - must be either incredibly stupid or insane, or perhaps both."

Nope. He's just a New Yorker.

TK said...

Since when is some ne'er do well j-school wanker like Sullivan qualified to judge somebody "clinically delusional?"

Obviously he has confused himself with someone whose opinion matters.

Children should be seen, not heard.

TMink said...

There is a huge and central spiritual component to this. Palin is a Christian who believes the Bible. Sullivan is a person who claims to be a Christian who has to ignore large portions of Scripture to maintain a blatantly sinful lifestyle. Palin lives the life of a committed Christian, Sullivan is a heretic.

On some levels, he knows this. She is saved and demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit, he is apostate and demonstrates the fruit of the flesh.

His attacks on her are sublimated attacks on God for labeling his homosexual behavior as an abomination. Now my lusting after women in my heart is an equal abonimation, but I accept and work to reduce that. I am ashamed of it. Sullivan rebels against God and turns his sexual sin into a lifestyle, seeking to lead others into believing his heresy, that homosexual behavior is acceptable to God and right and proper for Christians.

Once you understand the underlying context, his delusional focus on her womb is rendered obvious in its origin. This is the Inquisition, but the believer is not the one turning the screws so to speak. On many levels, this is a disguised dialogue between Sullivan and God. Ms. Palin is just a distraction in this particular matter.

God bless you Mr. Sullivan. He is speaking to you, I pray you listen, repent, and obey.

Trey

Ignorance is Bliss said...

AlphaLiberal and Sullivan said...

Palin liedwhen she claimed to be unaware of a turkey being slaughtered behind her
during a filmed interview; in fact, the cameraman said she had picked
the spot herself, while the slaughter was underway.


Okay, since it's almost thanksgiving, I'll give this one a shot. I'm not going to claim that I've debunked it, since it is so hard to prove a negative. But I will show that the link does not even come close to proving the assertion.

This is nothing more than he-said/she-said. Maybe Palin is lying, maybe the cameraman is lying. Or maybe one of them misremembers the event. Or maybe Palin misunderstood what he was talking about when he pointed out the slaughter. ( Maybe she thought the actual slaughter would not be in the camera view, or that it would be done before they started. )

If Sullivan ( or AlphaLiberal ) wants to be taken seriously, he should have made a list that only contains documented lies. This would not be included.

kentuckyliz said...

I would be interested in reading Sully's slice and dice of Gordon Brown.

You think he would be more interested in British politics, since he'll be heading back there again soon.

kentuckyliz said...

"Clinically delusional"?

I would be interested in learning of his professional qualifications to make such an assessment.

If he isn't licensed to make such an assessment, he should be charged by the state board.

If he is licensed, he violated HIPAA.

I am a QMHP in my state and I can commit people. I don't cast such terminology about loosely. I take my responsibilities seriously.

Aaron said...

Btw, seriously, ann, why are you wasting this much time with him?

i mean its one thing to continue to passively read what he writes and even link to his blog. i wouldn't but i get your logic.

But to actively engage him? its like talking to the guy who talks like he is on a cell phone, only there is no cell phone. It is unlikely to end well.

Jim O said...

I'm tired of reading about him. Is it not obvious by now that he has become completely unwound? It's sad to watch, which is why I would prefer not to watch.
So why pay him any heed? Close the door behind you and let him rant away.

Punditius said...

Rialby said: "So, a politician who's been caricatured for ill on a national television show cheerfully says that she'd love to go back on when in fact she really doesn't want to."

Excellent comment. In a nutshell. Worth repeating. Ergo.

Donald Sensing said...

Never mud wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but only the pig enjoys it.

Aaron said...

Donald

Okay, same point as mine only more succinct and funny. hats off to you.

AlphaLiberal said...

It's pathetic that all these commenters dump shit all over Andrew Sullivan without bothering to address the substance of his criticism and pretending he didn't back his arguments.

Really, it's like watching a bunch of 3rd graders debate.

Sullivan lays out a number of Palin's lies, he provides substance and then people here openly lie about his posts saying he doesn't back up his charges.

You know we can click right through and see you're lying, right? Do you ever stop to think why you're being so dishonest in defense of a liar?

Quite the political movement you have there.

Oh, yes. Why don't you just go heckle the bereaved?

Michael Hasenstab said...

Ann Althouse originally said: Let's try to put together an Obama list that equates as well as possible with Sullivan's Palin list.

Althouse asked for a list. Where it it?

She said "Let's try to....." That's "let's", a contraction for "let us", the "us" being Althouse and all who read this particular post and others regarding Sullivan/Palin, and have an interest in pointing out how full of shit they believe Sullivan may be.

What I read is for the most part the usual bitching on both sides of the argument, some troll nonsense, and some unrelated descriptions of several individuals' sexual practices.

Whoop de frickin' doo.

AlphaLiberal said...

Michael H, you left out the simplistic denials in defense of Palin.

Really, the complete inability of her supporters to mount the most basic fact-based defense of her litany of lies is very telling.

Sputtering denial is all they have.

Oh, wait, that makes me a "troll", right? Even though I've been posting here for years.

narciso said...

Sullivan is beyond loathsome, linking him is a pointless exercise, and we wonder why we get charlatans in high office, Edwards,
Clinton, Spitzer, Sanford, Ensign, et al. Anyone with any decency is shamed out of running, why put up with this garbage. If you an ethical person, a campaign can be conducted to try to present you as the most corrupt personimaginable, and the media will happily repeat every calumny, every distortion. So the center cannot hold. So the world increasingly resembles the tableau of late era Athens and Rome, where the Alcibiades and the Catilines were a dime a dozen

crypticguise said...

Isn't Andrew Sullivan becoming a bit of an emotionally disturbed "pinata". Andy's comments are quite deranged, but I suppose he enjoys being the poster boy for hysteria.

chickenlittle said...

It's pathetic that all these commenters dump shit all over Andrew Sullivan without bothering to address the substance of his criticism and pretending he didn't back his arguments.

I'll try to be succinct Alpha.

I vote. I don't vote for people who lie to me.

Sarah Palin hasn't lied to me. I briefly looked at Sullivan's list of grievances. None of them amount to or rise to level of "lies".

OTOH, Obama has already lied to me, over a matter which affects me personally (the details are already of record in the comment sections of this blog if you care).

Get it? Now bugger off. Please

kent said...

ALPHALIBERAL (abridged): "AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Big stinky evil vajayjay!! Coming right AT me!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH -- !!!"

Shhhhh, now. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Obama Lied:

in February, 2008, Obama said: “We are bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might go on for another hundred years.”

And, on a separate occasion: “(McCain) says that he is willing to send our troops into another hundred years of war in Iraq.”

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Obama's campaign spokesman lied when he said that Obama's quip about 'you can put lipstick on a pig' wasn't referring to Palin. If you have any doubt that he meant Palin, listen to the crowd's reaction. They know what he meant.

By Sullivan's standards this would be an Obama lie. I at least note that it is from a campaign spokesman.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Obama Lied when he said, while writing about an agreement for both candidates to take public financing in the general election:

"I am committed to seeking such an agreement if that commitment is matched by Senator McCain"

Now you could certainly argue that this was something he believed at the time, so it was not a lie, then he later changed his mind. If all he had said was that he would seek such an agreement, then a change of mind would seem more likely. However, I think it's pretty clear that he was never committed to it.

This would certainly more than meet Sullivan's standard

Luke said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Luke said...

Sullivan obsesses over Palin because she is what Sullivan wants to be more than anything else:

Normal, decent, hetero, content, modest, consequential.

Palin is so prototypically normal and decent and straight that her mere existence is a daily rebuke of Sullivan's self-inflicted pain.

1288-8thAve said...

Here's an interesting one from John Derbyshire's weekly "Radio Derb":
"Not only did no media organization or prominent pundit do a fact-check on Barack Obama's autobiography, Dreams From My Father, I have seen no signs that anyone actually read it. Who, for example, is the mysterious white woman Obama claims to have dated for a year in his New York days, back in the early 1980s, the one he broke up with because, exact quote from page 211 of Obama's book, quote: "She couldn't be black"? I personally would be quite interested to hear her side of that episode, and I bet a lot of other citizens would, too. How hard could it be for skilled reporters — perhaps a team of them … eleven, perhaps — to track down the lady? Nobody is the least bit interested. Nobody in the mainstream media is the least bit interested in anything Barack Obama ever wrote.
Now is this woman a lie? Who knows, but it's pretty hard to believe that Ms. Can-never-be-black hasn't been identified.
BUT - let's assume it's true. What does this say about our hero? He wouldn't deign to have a long-term relationship with a woman because she was white? And this is not racist, how?
AND why does the child of a black father and a white mother identify so strongly with his black-ness, that he wouldn't even consider having the same relationship that his own father did?
There's something messed up in this guy's head, if you ask me.

1288-8thAve said...

Here's an interesting one from John Derbyshire's weekly "Radio Derb":

"Not only did no media organization or prominent pundit do a fact-check on Barack Obama's autobiography, Dreams From My Father, I have seen no signs that anyone actually read it. Who, for example, is the mysterious white woman Obama claims to have dated for a year in his New York days, back in the early 1980s, the one he broke up with because, exact quote from page 211 of Obama's book, quote: 'She couldn't be black'? I personally would be quite interested to hear her side of that episode, and I bet a lot of other citizens would, too. How hard could it be for skilled reporters — perhaps a team of them … eleven, perhaps — to track down the lady? Nobody is the least bit interested. Nobody in the mainstream media is the least bit interested in anything Barack Obama ever wrote."

Now is this woman a lie? Who knows, but it's pretty hard to believe that Ms. Can-never-be-black hasn't been identified.

BUT - let's assume it's true.

What does this say about our hero? He wouldn't deign to continue a relationship with a woman because she was white?

And this is not racist, how?

AND why does the child of a black father and a white mother identify so strongly with his black-ness, that he wouldn't even consider having the same relationship that his own father did?

There's something messed up in this guy's head, if you ask me.

master cylinder said...

Dont any of you guys read Althouse AND Sullivan?
I look at both blogs, and here are ggod things about
both.One thing that is dismaying about discourse these days is the unwillingness to see ANY merit in the
opposing arguments.....I am amazed you all consider
yourselves well informed.

mavzoley said...

мультфильм
электронная почта без регистрации

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