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But seriously, very well done though I can't imagine it having that great of an impact.
He's reflecting what his constituents told him. Also Congress, which isn't popular, is attacking him even after the President, who is popular, forgave him.Very well done.
This has given him great name recognition. Another example where it helps to go against Obama.
Great ad.very genuine, down home vibewill go over well in SC
I think you have to consider the people on whom it is intended to make an impact. My guess is that it will be very effective with moderate Republicans / conservative Democrats (i.e. a big chunk of his state). His great sin is to violate the manners of an institution for which I don't hold in great reverence. I agree with the substance of his statement. Why should I be upset that he yelled during a cynical political dog and pony show?But there are a lot of people in his state who value "good manners" and this commercial will probably help placate many of them.
Nicely played. I think it would have been better to laugh at it as it looked like she would do at first--"Oh, you're the nut! Ha ha!"--rather than "he's just so passionate in his work for the people!"But still, he will come out ahead in the end.
"The President has been very gracious to my husband in accepting his apology." An even better, more effective line than "who's the nut ..."Like Serena Williams (but unlike teh calculating Kanye West), Wilson was 'in the moment' just a bit too much.
This ad is politically perfect in tone. That ad needs to be run over and over everywhere. Would Wilson accept the VP nomination when Palin runs for President???
If Joe ever even looks at another woman, he should be struck by lightning.
The add is a homerun.
Except he's lying. He hasn't apologized.
Did you read the *comments*?They were vicious.Thought it had a nice flavor for his target audience. He's not running to represent Manhatten or a district in Chicago.
Well done ad, but they met at "teenage Republican camp?" Really? Did I hear that wrong?
He should not have apologized for telling the truth.It is Obama who owes us all an apology.
red meat for Lexington County. it'll go over great.
He should not have apologized for telling the truth.Doesn't matter whether it was true or not. There's a time and a place -- even when it's true, it can be rude.
What fls said.I grew up in South Carolina in the early 60's. I went to school with black children and hispanic children (there were 4 in our school of 216), and asian children. We saw very little of the prejudice that surely existed, mostly because we were surrounded by military people from all over living around us. My parents were civil rights marchers, and all of my relatives spooke against prejudice and bigotry. That's what I was taught in South Carolina.In 1966 we moved to Kansas City where I saw weekly incidents of overt racist behavior - black garbagemen derided by neighborhood kids while their parents watched approvingly. There was not one black child in my elementary school of 650+, and shudder to think what would have happened if there had been one at that time. I recently looked up that school on the internet and today it has a black female principal and a hispanic male vice principal - came a long way!I have traveled and lived in every major section of the country, and I find the worst prejudice and outright bigotry in the Northeast (Boston is terrible! - remember busing in the 70's? I was scared to death there!) and the Midwest.Why the South - which has more black elected officials per capita than any other part of the United States - is saddled today with the canard that it is still the most racist part of the country is a question that makes you wonder whether or not this country is raising citizens with even the most basic of critical reasoning skills. Which makes me fear for our future.
Except he's lying. He hasn't apologized.???????
I don't like this Joe Smith guy. Here's why:He's big on the rebel flag, and southern "heritage."That flag is a symbol of rebellion and segregation. It's a symbol of other things, but that's what the south did under that flag.The southern United States is in the United States. Why be celebrating a flag and a separate heritage when we're all one country?My namesake, John W. Lynch from Charleston, Virginia, fought on the wrong side. Whatever else I may feel about my family and what they did, I have to admit when they were wrong.Most southerners do that, but this guy is riding the edge. And he's from South Carolina, which is where the trouble started in the first place.This is identity politics, and I don't like it.
Wow. If Obama can rile up such a right guy as Joe Wilson. . . he must be even worse than I thought!
John Lynch,I also had relatives in the Civil War that were Confederates - and yes, they were wrong. I don't like the Confederate flag either - frankly I don't get it.But there are people who are not politically correct - notice I didn't say outright bigots - who are still good people in many ways. The test is whether or not they are willing to either change when they are confronted or supply a satisfactoty, unforeseen reason why they do the politically correct thing.Like Obama disowning Rev Wright. It was the right thing for him to do. But millions of Americans still still don't forgive him. So I guess it's tit for tat - the left has the ones they won't forgive, and the right has theirs.We're such a country of grownups.
"Except he's lying. He hasn't apologized."He apologized for shouting out a disruptive comment.What else should he have apologized for?
Finally! A political wife willing to stand by her husband. If only more of them would.
Great ad. He's up $1 million so far, right? LOL.I predict, next big speech, 20-30 congress critters will yell out "you lie!"
The Drill SGT said..."Great ad. very genuine, down home vibe will go over well in SC"No shit?Yeah, that good ol' "down home vibe" evidently also includes cheating on your wife and being racist.Wilson's just another "down home" right wing asshole.
Chase, on your SC/KC story:There is an old saw that goes like:White Southerners dislike blacks in general, but love the ones they know.White Northerners like blacks in general, but hate the ones they know.
Milford stop play'n that goddamn piano! I'm talk'n to this here camera guy.
Beth said..."Finally! A political wife willing to stand by her husband. If only more of them would."Can I bring you your slippers, honey?
Ohhhh, the Chipper is here!!!Got any more great pics of...YOU?You're really cool.Really.
@Beth,Do I detect sarcasm? :)How do you think the ad would play in LA?
"I have traveled and lived in every major section of the country, and I find the worst prejudice and outright bigotry in the Northeast (Boston is terrible! - remember busing in the 70's? I was scared to death there!) and the Midwest.Why the South - which has more black elected officials per capita than any other part of the United States - is saddled today with the canard that it is still the most racist part of the country..."It's the narrative.
How would it play in LA? They'd eat it up with a spoon. It's a funny ad, too, it works. I'm just laughing at political wives - they're predictable. They're a stock role on the this stage.
I agree that it's a great ad. Makes me like Joe, and especially Roxanne.
I think the ad was well done, but I don't care what a wife says about a politician. Furthermore I am repulsed by touchy-feely political ads. All I want from politicians is: represent us and stay clean. Shut up about everything else, please.As for the rest, I'm glad Wilson yelled "you lie." The only way opposition to Obama can be covered these days is by making a scene. It's unfortunate, but you can thank the media.
Joe Wilson cheated on his wife, Jeremy? Link?Last I heard the worst dirt (and you KNOW there was digging) on Wilson was that he took NoDoze in college.And any indication of racism at all beyond party affiliation and the novel idea that the confederate flag can also have positive connotations?Link?Or is lying about people acceptable if you don't like them?
"As for the rest, I'm glad Wilson yelled "you lie." The only way opposition to Obama can be covered these days is by making a scene. It's unfortunate, but you can thank the media."Really? There's no negative coverage of Obama anywhere?Not even the most popular news channel in the country?Wow. . . this Obama guy really gets everything he wants, doesn't he?
Alan Turing probably did more than Patton to help win WWII. Nonetheless, he was hounded to his suicide by the authorities because of his homosexuality. Homosexuality was considered such a monstruous sin that it cancelled out all other virtues. It was impossible to be a good person and a homosexual. Something like this seems to be going on with Joe Wilson. I don't think Wilson is a racist, but, as they used to say of effete behavior, there's a hint of mint there. Racism is now considered such a monstruous sin that any hint of it cancels out all the days and works of a good man. This is patently wrong.
Except he's lying. He hasn't apologized.Everybody lies about sex.
downtownlad said... Except he's lying. He hasn't apologized.Is this the part where you show everyone that you've truly lost touch with all of reality?
Jeremy said... The Drill SGT said..."Great ad. very genuine, down home vibe will go over well in SC" No shit? Yeah, that good ol' "down home vibe" evidently also includes cheating on your wife and being racist. Wilson's just another "down home" right wing asshole.Uh oh!!! Did you and DTL have a special party or something? You now, one of those parties that lets reality slip away from ones mind to enter into a bizzaro world reality instead?
Good video. Ms. Wilson has good sense and seems to be very classy.
Joe Wilson cheated on his wife, Jeremy? Link?Google has nothing on this, so Jeremy must have "misspoken". Interestingly (to me), the third Google hit on "Joe Wilson" "cheated on" is Synova's comment.
This is a travesty..While Scoter Libby’s name was dragged thru the mud, lost his license to practice law. Joe Wilson’s wife is making commercials for her husband. Wasn’t she supposedly put in danger by the Bush White House? What a bunch of hooy.
I think Teh One™ has lost control of the narrative.
Ka-ching, ka-ching... Daddy needs new shoes!
Can we stop feeding the trolls? They don't make arguments. They just come here to smear their own feces on the wall.
"teenage Republican camp"... Heh! I wonder what that really was.No, wait. I don't really care.
Can we stop feeding the trolls?Understood. I couldn't help myself. I am curious as to what possible line of reasoning DTL could use to say that Wilson hadn't apologized.
As colleges usually have College Democrats and College Republicans student organizations, high schools often have Young Democrats and Young Republicans. They have meetings and retreats just like any other student organization. Please don't make yourself look stupid by having a freakout over high school and college student organizations. Sheesh.
Please don't make yourself look stupid by having a freakout over high school and college student organizations. Sheesh.Not freaking out, just think it's humorous that people actually belong to clubs like that.
Liz, it was "Teenage Republican Camp," not club. It's gonna be funny when a couple middle-aged people tell you, 20 years from now, that they met at Camp Wellstone. Same thing.
"Understood. I couldn't help myself. I am curious as to what possible line of reasoning DTL could use to say that Wilson hadn't apologized."Wilson apologized for the outburst, not the disagreement.
Teenage Republican Camp....Can't get the image of Band Camp a la American Pie out of my head
I think Beth has the pitch perfect political wife stereotype (except for Ms Sanford who ditched the scumbag).
"Racism is now considered such a monstruous sin that any hint of it cancels out all the days and works of a good man. This is patently wrong."As opposed to the good old days when a little racism, or even a lot, wasn't an impediment to apolitical career!Now before you jump all over me, I know what your saying: the mere accusation destroys a life.But your analogy is weak: homosexuality is not wrong, racism is.
Carvill called Wilson a "neo-confederate" last night on CNN.Isn't that another lie?
"While Scoter Libby’s name was dragged thru the mud, lost his license to practice law.Joe Wilson’s wife is making commercials for her husband. "Well, a hero like Joe Wilson only comes along once in a generation.I realize Scooter was hero and all. . . a genuine, honest to god hero. . .but he was no Joe Wilson, speaking truth to power and bucking convention to do so.
Wilson apologized for the outburst, not the disagreement.That's what he meant? We're not allowed to disagree with our President???
phosphorious said... Wow. If Obama can rile up such a right guy as Joe Wilson. . . he must be even worse than I thought!"Wilson is a sniveling jerk - the proverbial 3 pounds of shit in a two pound suit.He isn't reflecting anything except his own desperate hope to be something other than a backwoods pissant from rural South Carolina.
Kirby Olson said... Carvill called Wilson a "neo-confederate" last night on CNN. Isn't that another lie?Sure it is, but once it's said, it's out there and then it becomes a meme. Just sit back and watch it stew for a while.
hdhouse said... phosphorious said... Wow. If Obama can rile up such a right guy as Joe Wilson. . . he must be even worse than I thought!" Wilson is a sniveling jerk - the proverbial 3 pounds of shit in a two pound suit. He isn't reflecting anything except his own desperate hope to be something other than a backwoods pissant from rural South Carolina.Awesome, now the Althouse stooges are turning on each other. Where the hell is my popcorn.
What is a "neo-confederate" supposed to be?
We've all seen this by now? "Rep. Joe Wilson’s outburst last week is drawing new recriminations from his colleagues, with a member of the Congressional Black Caucus suggesting that a failure to rebuke Wilson is tantamount to supporting the most blatant form of organized racism in American history. In an obvious reference to the KKK, Rep. Hank Johnson, D-Ga., said Tuesday that people will put on “white hoods and ride through the countryside” if emerging racist attitudes, which he says were subtly supported by Wilson, are not rebuked. He said Wilson must be disciplined as an example."
Methadras said... Awesome, now the Althouse stooges are turning on each other. Where the hell is my popcorn.I think the fratricide you think you see is just a couple of poorly reasoned posts.
"His great sin is to violate the manners of an institution ..."What manners? The House of Representatives has rules only for hammering the minority party in that "institution." Rep. Stark called President Bush a "liar" twice in the same speech from the floor. In 2005, the Democrats booed President Bush during that year's STU speech. Both parties rise up during joint addresses to Congress, hooting, cheering, clapping, and whatever else those clowns choose to do.Note that when Bush was booed in '05, he just kept right on talking, didn't drop a beat.
Linkie fixed.I say again, the direction this thread has gone vexes me and caused me to produce an experimental batch of gougrès in anticipation of Deena's fundraiser on Friday.
John Lynch: What is wrong with Southern Heritage? The North won, thus the South is part of the Union, but everything that happened in the South is to be forgotten?I have 3 ancestors who fought in the Civil War. All were from the South, yet one fought the Union, one for the Confederacy, and one for both.Southern heritage keeps alive the stories and impact of all three men and the many others like them.
Phosphorious...When a white man calls a black man a racist that is considered a complement by the black man and his friends. So you see that the "Racist" charge when used on southern white men is like the free penalty kick in soccer always pre-awarded to black men when they are in danger of losing. Therefore there is no defense to the charge allowed if the target appears to be a southern white man. It may be time for that last 40 years of affirmative discrimination to end with the election of President Obama. What are your thoughts?
traditionalguyRacism still exists in America. It is not overwhelming and it is not prevalent and it may not affect politics or business much. But it exists. To think otherwise is ignorance. For instance, some of the signs the tea bagger's made were blatant examples of racism rearing it's ugly head.But it brings up an interesting situation. Most, or all, of the tea baggers will shrug it off and say these little pockets of racism don't matter.But I think they do.However the racist label gets abused a lot by the left. For instance, opposition to Obama's plans are often called racist. That is going too far. But labels are used by both sides. For instance, by supporting a public option members of Congress are called Marxists. They are not.
Won't even watch the ad. What he did on the floor of congress was deliberate and, unfortunately, did what he set out to do, bring attention to himself. He did not do it spontaneously.And he was not telling the truth. Jerk
John Lynch and others who are against "symbols" of the Confederacy or celebrating the honor and sacrifice of the men who fought under it have to ask if ancestors of men who fight in what history may regard as "wrong wars" possibly Iraq and Vietnam --deserve to celebrate the service of those ancestors.Or will teachers and activists mildly scold students intersted in the "mistaken 2nd battle of Fallujah" or say that the monument honoring those who "hurt humanity" by serving in Vietnam should be quietly removed as an "inappropriate symbol"??Other nations have come to grips with being on the wrong side of wars, but honoring the courage and sacrifice of the past citizens who did what they thought was right. Japan has many memorials. Citizens visit memorials on distant islands like Tarawa and Iwo Jima to honor ancestors who died doing their duty. And to Korean and Chinese battlegrounds..not to apologize..but mark the place where good Japanese perished.We can look to Britain, where red poppies are broken out and a sense of WWI being a ruinous waste does not block them from honoring those lost on the Fields of Flanders, at Gallipoli and two dozen other massive bloodlettings.As for the rationale that we must never honor Stonewall Jackson or Robert E Lee or the Confederate Vets who slowly rebuilt a destroyed South through decades of hard times...because it "offends" "angers" and "outrages" hypersensitive black people and black race card hucksters who wish to dictate what is and what is not culturally appropriate..Well, tough titties, hypersensitive and ever angry, outraged and offended blacks.==================William leans to the single great man of history - and showcases one homo out of dozens of gifted codebreakers as "doing more to win WWII, perhaps" than Patton.Unlikely.Turing was on a team. He made contributions. So did a pile of heterosexuals on the team. And the true "breakthrough" was made by red-blooded heterosexual Royal Navy sailors and Marines who boarded two Nazi subs brought up by depth charges, fighting Nazis and risking going down with the subs two miles under the Atlantic (both subs were lost shortly after their mission) and seized two Enigma code machines.As for Patton, he did three great things that do single him out as a single force of great impact in the war...vs. gay poster boy Turnings turn as part of a team puzzling away in English cottages.1. The Germans, perhaps the best man for man military ever, were creaming Americans in N Africa until Patton's arrival. He figured out how to beat them in mobile war, giving America it's first land victories against the Nazis.2. Patton's thrust through France completely disrupted German logistics. His decision to speed beyond his orders saved 10s of thousands of lives as German divisions were cut off.3. After a great holding operation by the 101st, Patton's 3rd Army wrecked the Nazis last gasp in the West - the Ardennes Offensive.
Matt, I think it depends on how far down you want to define racism. At its most mild, racism is simply ethnic pride--something we consider positive or, at worst, neutral. If you want to call someone racist, you probably can. You just define it down enough to cover the person you want to hit with it. Is there meaningful racism? Attacks based on race, discrimination by someone with some particular power using it against another because of their skin color? Yes, pockets, as you say. But accusations of racism are often not so carefully crafted. They are typically wielded as a blunt instrument to silence an annoying critic.As for these racist signs at Tea Party rallies, I haven't seen any. Can you get more specific? What did they say?
As for these racist signs at Tea Party rallies, I haven't seen any. Can you get more specific? What did they say? Go on over to LGF. Charles has his panties in a knot trying to make anyone involved in the tea party movement or the 9/12 demonstrations a racist or communist because there were less that appropriate signs there.
George Will in Newsweek - On the 233rd day of his presidency, Barack Obama grabbed the country's lapels for the 263rd time—that was, as of last Wednesday, the count of his speeches, press conferences, town halls, interviews, and other public remarks. His speech to Congress was the 122nd time he had publicly discussed health care. Just 14 hours would pass before the 123rd, on Thursday morning. His incessant talking cannot combat what it has caused: An increasing number of Americans do not believe that he believes what he says. Ever notice a liar, simply becuase they are compulsive talkers convinced others, of what they think are lesser intellects, will be more and more dazzled by their bullshit the more and more he or she talks??? Will's list is impressive. It confirms what I think is happening with Obama - he is so full of himself he can't stop talking about himself and what he wants...and lacks the executive management skills to get his ducks in a row and time and limit his public speaking on policy under he has a deal all but wrapped up or when timing dictates maximum impact on the public on a critical matter. But because he lacks the skills to lead, or any concrete policy set to go with Congress consulted, i's and t's addressed 1st....he goes back to the well that he thinks he flourishes in. Speeches. More speeches. Full of the vague generalities and feel good words his TelePrompter scriptwriters always give him to read.And time after time, people hear about some grand idea or assurance from the one that is not backed by any legislation or White House executive order they can see and compare Obama's ideas and assurances to...and frequently...find out there is no there there...or his vague promises and reassurances have no substance behind them.This is considered "lying" in the minds of many, not just Joe Wilson. For many people, what hip cool Chicago urbanites consider some silky suave bullshitting is simply "lying" to the ears of others. It plays well down in Hyde Park and Frisco suburbs, where ears are tuned to code words they are expected to pluck out amidst the predictable bull shit the Left says, even amongst fellow Leftists - but not in parts of the country that want the direct scoop on things.Meanwhile, Black Messiah has announced he will appear on 5!!! Sunday talk shows this weekend, 5!!!, and will then be the 1st sitting President to be on Letterman...no doubt to have a "teachable moment" and delight with Dave in trading ironic bon mots..And he wants a new hour of free airtime on the Networks for a new "urgent policy speech" for the American people on various matters in the next week.
Sorry to have to stray back on topic folks:The Wilson rebuke vote was 240-179. Seventeen Democrats voted either against the rebuke, or present. Seven Republicans voted for the rebuke. I would have guessed a straight party-line vote. I woudn't have guessed so many in the President's own party would be so obviously racist.
Someone elsewhere said they hoped Wilson had it framed and hung on the wall behind his toilet with a hammer and a note to "break glass in case of emergency."
More ACORN tff out on the web. Sex, Lies and Video.Charlie Gibson said today, he never heard the story. Don't they hold some of editors meeting in the afternoon to assemble the script?
Won't even watch the ad. What he did on the floor of congress was deliberate and, unfortunately, did what he set out to do, bring attention to himself. He did not do it spontaneously. And he was not telling the truth. JerkSo are you talking about Barack Obama, or Joe Wilson? I can't tell.
Hooray for Joe. God bless him!
Joe Wilson is a West Point graduate where he swore to uphold the Code not to lie, and not to permit those among us to lie. That code is not compatable with the Sosos-o-crats' best laid plans to lie their way into a fascist dictatorship.
Methadras,"Awesome, now the Althouse stooges are turning on each other. Where the hell is my popcorn."No. . . it's just that I did too good a job of mimicking a musheaded conservative.Next time I'll try to be so over the top that no one could mistake me for the real thing.If that's possible. You conservatives get pretty hysterical. . .
"Therefore there is no defense to the charge allowed if the target appears to be a southern white man."This is perhaps true, and unfortunate. . . but I'm not sure the answer is to claim that blacks are always "playing the race card".The problem is that racism taints all of our interactions. The possibility of it is always there, whether we like it or not, and simply deciding that you no longer want to be accused of it doesn't matter one bit.And here's what is annoying about the Joe Wilson incident: I don't think he is a racist. But the simple fact of the matter is that never before has a congressman behaved in such a way. . . yes, there has been booing from both sides in the past, but never has a congressman called the president a liar during a public address. It's unprecedented. And the other unprecedented thing is that it was a black president.So the first time a president has been insulted this way, it was a black president.You don't have to be a race baiting firebrand to put two and two together.But Joe Wilson, and conservatives act as if they have nothing to prove here: "Of course we're not racists, and it's racist to say that we are!".They act as if THEY are the aggrieved party.At a bare minimum, what do you think this obliviousness to an honest complaint has done to the black vote for 2010?
Thanks for the Will link, C4.Well one can say one thing. BHO's speechwriter(s) are earning their money.wv = reptsherSomething to do with what we are expereincing from our overexposure to POTUS. Have no idea what. Butit ain't good.
Matt -- talk about labels.WHy do you continue to use the quite offensive (tee hee, aren't I clever!!) term "tea baggers" to describe the Tea Party and other protest participants?Grow up.wv = musivesSome people send missives. Some musives.
phosphorious - Also unprecedented: Obama used his public address to call people opposed to his plan liars, and then proceeded to tell a lie.From the transcript:Some of people's concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but by prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Now, such a charge would be laughable if it weren't so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple. (Applause.)There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms -- the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.AUDIENCE MEMBER: You lie! (Boos.)Perhaps if Obama hadn't just called his opponents liars, he wouldn't have been called one himself.
"This is perhaps true, and unfortunate. . . but I'm not sure the answer is to claim that blacks are always "playing the race card"."Not always, and last time I checked MoDo wasn't black. Nor are almost all of everyone going on about how it's racist to disagree with or criticize or be rude about Obama.And Joe Wilson and the conservatives are acting like they've got nothing to PROVE here because they have nothing to prove! Racism is not the default explanation that then has to be proven wrong. Particularly when disputing the racism or defending yourself is portrayed as proof of it.Or when *did* you stop beating your wife?
They act as if THEY are the aggrieved party.Isn't about time to stop this aggrieved bullshit on all sides?Millions of non-Dem white voters pulled the lever for Obama with a great deal of pride. That as country we had finally turned a corner; now it's all racism all the time.When is enough, enough?
...never has a congressman called the president a liar during a public address. It's unprecedented. And the other unprecedented thing is that it was a black president.Small sample size. Not the number of black presidents, but the number of presidential addresses to joint sessions of Congress. Even The SOTU wasn't live for years.George Washington gave the first State of the Union address on January 8, 1790 in New York City, then the provisional U.S. capital. In 1801, Thomas Jefferson discontinued the practice of delivering the address in person, regarding it as too monarchical (similar to the Speech from the Throne). Instead, the address was written and then sent to Congress to be read by a clerk until 1913 when Woodrow Wilson re-established the practice despite some initial controversy. However, there have been exceptions to this rule. Presidents during the latter half of the 20th century have sent written State of the Union addresses. The last President to do this was Jimmy Carter in 1981.[good for him] Today you have a callow but charismatic president whose party controls both houses of Congress. In response to an equivocal crisis (the crisis is that his party's legislation is in crisis), he announces the need to address a joint session. Under the rules, he will receive lots of applause and perhaps a smattering of boos, but no interjections, objections, or questions. The address will, of course, be televised. The president, under the rules, can say whatever he wants, no matter how transparently false. Not even people in his own party believe Obama's claim that health reform will be paid for, let alone the CBO, or independent experts.Yet the rules demand deference to such a speech.I wonder how often Obama and the populist presidents that come after him, will play this card.* What new crisis in his popularity will suggest to the president that the best solution is a televised stump speech with Congress as his retinue.Thomas Jefferson was right. Too monarchical indeed. This is one more way television media has undermined the nation.-----*I would note that the president that came before Obama was also a populist.
That as country we had finally turned a corner; now it's all racism all the time.When is enough, enoughYou know. I have never been racist and I was raised by extremely liberal parents to be considerate of all people. As a student of anthropology (my major in college) I view humans as being adapted to their ecological niches. The races are because of climate, selection and there is nothing inherently good or bad about being of any different genetic class.However,.....Given the racism all the time meme. Always being accused of racism when you disagree with Obama or any of this policies is tiresome....I'm begining to rethink my position.In for a dollar in for a dime. Fine! Keep calling me racist then. Maybe I'll join the club.Happy now?
At a bare minimum, what do you think this obliviousness to an honest complaint has done to the black vote for 2010?Diddly doo squat nada. The general black vote is a lock for the Democrats because they are the party of gimmies. Freebies. The party of grievance and divison.
I have to opine that anyone who thinks calling the President of the United States from the floor of congres is "ok" or "permissable" or "free speech" or "that's what we were thinking" is a complete jerk asshole. If you care to defend your statements bring it on. You got no cheese and I'll eat you alive.What the hell are you people thinking?
Calling the President a liar from the floor of the House was acceptable when a Democrat did it and Democrats voted not to censure.Making rude disruptive noises during a president's speech, even the far more lofty SOTU instead of a "please may I address you" speech like this one was, is acceptable when Democrats do it.Duh.
I live in South Carolina for eight months a year, and Wisconsin for four.I see as many Confederate flags in Wisconsin as I do in South Carolina. And I see damn few in either state.The northern liberal stereotype of southern white men and women is one of the most pathetic and ignorant around. There was a time when the south was defined by a bitter and reactionary racism. That time is over. There are very few people in the south who want to go back in that direction.
Joe Wilson's shout out was rude. It was not acceptable. Joe knew that, which is why he apologized.Now the democrats, sensing an advantage, want to keep the issue alive by demanding more apologies and painting Joe as a racist.This is understandable, but even less acceptable as it is a concerted long term effort, not an emotional outburst.
In my perusal online of presidential and congressional history the other day the one remarkable thing was that the word "liar" is one of the most common names thrown at presidents from the first.So while the forum may be new ... I couldn't (and have no time to) access transcripts of all the congressioal exchanges ... liar isn't a new word. Seems to be part of the job.
Dust Bunny Queen,"The general black vote is a lock for the Democrats because they are the party of gimmies. Freebies. The party of grievance and divison."Are you sure you've never been racist?
Look:You all seem to find it objectionable when a black person is too quick to cry racism. Fine.But can't you understand, then, when people object to your quickness to cry "race card"?Dust Bunny Queen just claimed to be an emlightened liberal who was never racist. . . and then just tosses off a racist comment: "Blacks vote democrats because of the 'gimmes'" That's what determines the black vote.And she passes among conservatives as emlightened.You all would like to think that racism is over because you don't feel like you're rcaist.Perhaps there is a higher standard. . . and that might include a congressman showing a black president the same minimal repsect he shows a white president.Or maybe I'm wrong, and you should all continue to whine about being misunderstood.Let me knwo how that works out for you.
"What the hell are you people thinking?" Here's what I'm thinking:The Congress is not a prop for a President to use to push controversial bills. If he doesn't want to give voice to dissent, then he should just make another televised speech and leave the Congress out of it.Our congressmen are there to represent us. On controversial topics, if they feel compelled, let them speak. Especially when the President is branding the opposition as liars.
And he wants a new hour of free airtime on the Networks for a new "urgent policy speech" for the American people on various matters in the next week.Dear Lord, another one? When does this end! God. Pretty soon he's going to have a weekly show.
"So while the forum may be new ... I couldn't (and have no time to) access transcripts of all the congressioal exchanges ... liar isn't a new word. Seems to be part of the job."Then why did conservatives throw a hissy fit when Obama called his opponents liars? they were: there will be no "death panels". I don't care what you'll hear about the "poetry" of the phrase. It is a lie. And conservatives threw a tantrum.
At a bare minimum, what do you think this obliviousness to an honest complaint has done to the black vote for 2010?The potential swing in the Black vote is what, <1% of the national totals? African Americans are only 13.4% of the population of the US and vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Thanks to racial gerrymandering, the Black vote is inconsequential in most House races where it isn't already far into the majority. Even in Senate races, I think there's only a handful of Southern states where the African American vote could be decisive. African Americans simply aren't swing voters. There's no electoral percentage for Republicans in pandering African American voters -- that they try to do so from time to time is more the triumph of hope over experience (or the naive dream of a genuinely post-racial politics) than the outcome of a rational vote counting calculation.
The Congress is not a prop for a President to use to push controversial bills.I think that's usually what they spend most of their State of the Union doing -- pushing controversial bills. Or at least controversial policies. That's why Democrats broke protocol during Bush's state of the union speeches. He was advocating policies and reforms they disagreed with.
Balfegor ,I suppose your calculations are correct. . . but I really didn't think conservatives could afford to lose even a single vote these days.Just coming off a crushing defeat, their big strategy seems to be being outraged that people don't think of highly of them as they think they deserve.
"Then why did conservatives throw a hissy fit when Obama called his opponents liars? they were: there will be no "death panels". I don't care what you'll hear about the "poetry" of the phrase. It is a lie. And conservatives threw a tantrum."Actually, Obama said he didn't want to give old ladies their hip replacements, and E. Emmanual also feels that way.The white house believes in denying care to the elderly and non productive, and they have admitted that HR 3200 is just one step towards their goal of power (single payer) to do all kinds of 'good' things.Death Panels also resulted in a swift change in the bill, to remove something the people didn't want.No, there is no panel for executing people, but no one said there was one. Death Panels was and remains an accurate and excellent criticism of one particular issue.You complained that you can't defeat every possible incarnation of 'death panels' because I call it a metaphor for many problems with bureaucracy. That's just a sign that the problem with Chappaquidicare is vast. It's not an excuse to call 'death panels' a lie. Joe Wilson proved that Obama was lying. Obama, like a coward, never defended his POV of providing health care for illegals (which is an idea that has a great argument behind it)... congress deleted verification, and now they are going to put it back in because Joe Wilson is 100 times the leader Obama is. Sarah got her way too. The people are awake, and these appeals seem to be working.
Obama is getting all the attention! AGAIN. Whaaa! When is it going to be about us??? They're calling us liars and racists because we're lying and holding up racist signs! WTF???? I'm so sick and tired of this.
that they try to do so from time to time is more the triumph of hope over experience (or the naive dream of a genuinely post-racial politics) than the outcome of a rational vote counting calculation.I think it's more aimed at white voters who don't want to be called racist for voting for republicans. I mean sure, they'd be thrilled if they could get more AA votes, but they mostly know it's a lost cause. For now, at least.
phosphorious said... Dust Bunny Queen, "The general black vote is a lock for the Democrats because they are the party of gimmies. Freebies. The party of grievance and divison." Are you sure you've never been racist?Are you sure you know what a racist really is? I don't believe you do.
"I see as many Confederate flags in Wisconsin as I do in South Carolina. And I see damn few in either state."You probably see just as many Che posters or T-shirts and we all know how he's not offensive at all.
Are you sure you've never been racist?topic. shark. jump.
Phosphorious...I find pleasure in reading your well written comments and their enlightened point of view. As to the terrible double secret white racism everywhere in South Carolina, you should read Pat Conroy's new book called South of Broad. Conroy is a good observer of the last 40 years of changes in the South, and he also writes so well that his language skills are a pleasure of their own.
If a President uses a joint address to Congress to call Members of Congress liars, courtesy and decorum have already been fatally breached.The truth of the statement is utterly irrelevant; you do not go as a guest to a body to challenge the honor of its members. There is a time and place for that.Joe Wilson's response was improper if, and only if, any resonable person would conclude that the President did not intend to include any Members of Congress in his declaration that "prominent politicians" were liars.Otherwise, Joe Wilson, as a Member of Congress, he had a perfect right to respond to a discourteous guest in Congress's place of business with anger. It would have been better if he had controlled himself, but his response was not improper.It is an unfortunate comment on both the low state of courtesy in the United States and the excessive regard for the Presidency that it is Wilson, and not Obama, who is considered to have been out of line.
Balfegor @10:06 -- what matters is turnout.
Methadras,Are you sure you know what a racist really is? I don't believe you do.If saying that blacks are attracted to freebies and not to politicial principles is not racist, then you are correct, sir.I have no idea what racism is.
"You all would like to think that racism is over because you don't feel like you're rcaist."I would like to think that we might be ALLOWED to have racism be over. This isn't a statement describing present conditions. It's a statement of hope. People want to be done already, but they keep on being told NO."Perhaps there is a higher standard. . . and that might include a congressman showing a black president the same minimal repsect he shows a white president."But that's not what you're asking for. You're demanding that a black president be shown MORE respect. The Democrats were disrespectful of Bush when he gave the SOTU speech required by law. Are you going to quibble that loud booing is not disrespectful because it's noise and not words? A Democrat gave a speech in the House and called Bush a liar twice, which is against the House rules (just like Wilson's outburst is against the rules) but rather than censure him (as Wilson was censured even after apologizing for the outburst) the other Democrats voted NOT to censure him.JUST counting behavior while on the House floor at official functions Obama has been no more disrespected than Bush was.Nor has the rhetoric of protesters or the signs they carry been any more disrespectful than those protesting against Bush.You are not asking for equal respect and equal treatment. You're asking for careful censure of how people express themselves for fear that they might be slandered as a racist.
I suppose your calculations are correct. . . but I really didn't think conservatives could afford to lose even a single vote these days.They can waste time fussing over the Black vote while supporters of a Black President are tarring them non-stop as racists and will scream RACIST!! no matter what they do, or they can get a lot more bang for their buck and try and win some of the Hispanic vote, where Obama's support has declined about 10% since mid-summer. If Republicans could persuade all those disaffected Hispanic voters to swing Republican, that would be a net 20% swing on a population that makes up between 10% and 15% of a number of swing states -- a roughly 2-3% swing in the vote, which would be quite substantial. Maybe at some future point, when the race-baiters have all discredited themselves, there will be space for Republicans to try to reclaim a portion of the Black vote. But now? How is it possibly worth their while, when there's more valuable lower-hanging fruit to be picked?
"If saying that blacks are attracted to freebies and not to politicial principles is not racist, then you are correct, sir."I think it's racist to present the Democratic Party as representing the needs of black voters because of the racism inherent in the very concept that people of one race have a single political outlook or unified political needs. Presuming to represent racial groups does this unavoidably. People are judged, necessarily, by the color of their skin and not the circumstances of their life or their opinions about the world and how it works and what is necessary to secure their own liberty.The utter bile directed toward black people who refuse to be grouped this way is incredible. Because the "truth" that Democrats "get" all the Black voters is not to be questioned or violated. And those Democrats are the ones who insist that those they represent need to be taken care of. And how is that not "gimme?"They do it with women, too. Or at least they try.The worst racism, the worst *prejudice*, I've heard lately has been in the so-called defense of the black women fired by Acorn. Supposedly they aren't responsible moral agents. This is pretty much similar to Rep. Murtha's defense of the Haditha Marines (now vindicated) who aren't *bad* people, but just like all of the *other* men fighting the war, balancing on the razor edge of atrocity.This is not isolated. I'm not surprised anymore, if I ever was, when a supposed liberal defends someone by explaining that they aren't responsible for their actions.Don't expect too much. Don't expect too much of *those* people.Who is racist?
"I think it's racist to present the Democratic Party as representing the needs of black voters because of the racism inherent in the very concept that people of one race have a single political outlook or unified political needs."Then I await your blistering response to Dust Bunny Queen.
"The utter bile directed toward black people who refuse to be grouped this way is incredible. Because the "truth" that Democrats "get" all the Black voters is not to be questioned or violated. And those Democrats are the ones who insist that those they represent need to be taken care of. And how is that not "gimme?""And yet even those black people who buck the trend and vote republican are often disgusted by the GOP's attitude towards minorities.Look ta Colin Powell: he endorsed Obama, and gave rather cogent, well reasoned arguments for his doing so.And I don't recall republicans admiring his independence and individuality.Do you?
For shame, DBQ, for shame!You pointed out that the Democrats specialize in gimmies, freebies, grievance and division.Worse, that black voters vote overwhelmingly Democrat.Don't point this stuff out. People don't like it! Shame, shame, shame!
Oh, right... because Collin Powell was marginalized in the Republican party because he was black!Can you see anything past skin color when you look at people, Phos?
"This is not isolated. I'm not surprised anymore, if I ever was, when a supposed liberal defends someone by explaining that they aren't responsible for their actions."And I have stopped even trying to understand the fetishistic attitude that conservatives have to "individual responsibility".Just leave your children in the woods, to be raised by wolves: environment doesn't matter, just the "individual will".Racism? Poverty? Crime? These are just excuses that the weak use to excuse their weakness.Then why do you care if Obama institutes the socialist utopia? You'll do just as well, right? "Society" is just an excuse.
And I'm not at all surprised that you see only government care or abandonment.
"You pointed out that the Democrats specialize in gimmies, freebies, grievance and division.Worse, that black voters vote overwhelmingly Democrat.Don't point this stuff out. People don't like it! Shame, shame, shame!"This is disingenuous in the extreme. If you can read (can you?), you will have noticed that she didn't say That blacks vote democrat AND the democrats are the party of freebies. . . She said Blacks vote democrat BECAUSE the democrats are the party of freebies.If you don't see the difference, then you are too stupid to bother arguing with.And I will note that The Althousian Generality, so proud of your recent efforts to eject a an evil terribel racist (who you claimed was a liberal anyway), galdly let that one by.Big smile, all around.wv: tubytYeah, a bunch of two-bit minds around here.
Don't point this stuff out. People don't like it! Shame, shame, shame!:-P The double standard with a triple back flip is getting really old. Phosphorescence can twist all he wants, but the constant whining about racism where there is just honest disagreement does nothing but bring more disbelief and discredit to his cause. (whatever the hell that may be)So....blacks vote mostly Democrat. Big effing surprise. You would vote for someone who offers you the moon and promises the sun. The REAL big surprise would be if they ever figured out they were being given the shaft.His question was how would all of this tempest in a tea party pot about Joe Wilson affect the black vote....to which I say not a damned bit. Ooooooh...makes me racist I guess. If you want a self fulfilling prophecy...keep calling the majority of the population of the country racists over and over, over baseless and trivial issues.VW: I kid you not....funkeye
"VW: I kid you not....funkeye"Ooh, I had that back in the 70's. The disease not the band, though, they often flared up together.
Phos said: "But your analogy is weak: homosexuality is not wrong, racism is."Apparently not, since people on all sides approve of racism, they just prefer their own brand, like affirmative action, or calling people racists based on the color of their skin.and Gay versus racist, well at least the racist can reproduce so it seems that evolution thinks one is preferable. I'm blinded by truth.
Every time Democrats call a critic of Obama a racist, they lose ground with white voters. White voters are, with rare exceptions, tired of the endless parade of phony racism accusations they've been enduring for the last thirty or forty years.So I would encourage the Democrats to keep it up. See if you can build a governing coalition consisting solely of race-obsessed minority voters. Good luck with that. :)
Announced today: Obama sending 3000 more troops to Afgahnistan and 1000 more to Iraq.How's that change thing going? I guess there is always hope? Joe Wilson should be a hero to the left.
phosphorious said... If saying that blacks are attracted to freebies and not to politicial principles is not racist, then you are correct, sir. I have no idea what racism is.I'm not saying anything of the kind. I'm simply saying that the statement that DBQ made isn't racist and you asking her if she is a racist illustrates that you don't understand or know what a racist is or what racism is.But I'll go ahead and step into your argumentative waters. Considering that the policies of The Great Society were designed to help minorities and specifically blacks to advance ahead and in large part has done nothing but subjugated them to government intervention that keeps many of them shackled to abject illiteracy, poverty, fatherlessness, high rates of abortion, high prison rates, high drop out rates all to save the minorities, namely the majority of blacks, to the tune of over 55% of the federal budget spent as entitlements and trillions of dollars over the last 50 years, then would you call the racism or government once again failing its citizenry?
Truth, as it was before philosophy got hold of it. (dog video)
Oh. Freebees, not frisbees.Sorry.
And I have stopped even trying to understand the fetishistic attitude that conservatives have to "individual responsibility".I believe you.
Individual responsibility deals with the necessity of human incentives.
Phosphorius:I think your exciting new "Are you now or have you ever been ... a racist" campaign has great potential. I suggest you pursue it vigorously. Perhaps you could even give yourself an identifying title, something like (holds hand up in air, framing imaginary sign) "Phosphorius, the racistfinder-general".wv: codesses. Some codesses could whip up an HTML page for you tout suite.
rhharding's dog clearly grew up fatherless, but being naturally intelligent, secretly developed his skills and a plan. Then when the time was right, he sprung his plan and launched his life of crime.
"dissent is the highest form of racism." Mark Styen
John Lynch said he didn't like this "Joe Smith guy". Who's Joe Smith?
Everybody is attracted to freebies. That's what makes populists populists.
Either Powell believed it or he lied. Either way, it became a pattern with his Obama endorsement.
Although I would never want to discourage paul z's right to comment, I miss when his comments were few but every one was memorable.Colin Powell was marginalized in the Republican party because he was black!Would Cheney have treated a white man like a chump, making him repeat that WMD bullshit?We'll never know. Powell was a good team player.edited to remove extranea
fls, you really need to take those racism-colored glasses off. They are affecting your vision.The held-over-from-the-Clinton-crew CIA chief (Tenet) said justifying the Iraq invastion with WMD would be a 'slam dunk', not Cheney.Bush let Powell try the UN WMD presentation 'Hail Mary' to give Blair cover for deploying British troops. Bush was willing to go into Iraq without them if Blair couldn't stand the heat. The presentation was unnecessary from the standpoint of the administration, not an example of Powell taking one for the team.Plus Powell's right hand man, Richard Armitage, was the original Plame/Wilson leaker.
"Apparently not, since people on all sides approve of racism, they just prefer their own brand, like affirmative action, or calling people racists based on the color of their skin.and Gay versus racist, well at least the racist can reproduce so it seems that evolution thinks one is preferable. "1) You despise racism. . . when you are the target. Blacks are just being big babies. Understood.2) Homosexuality is worse than racism in your mind? I can't believe I wasted any time or effort arguing with a person who thinks that.
"Plus Powell's right hand man, Richard Armitage, was the original Plame/Wilson leakerCould you get your fucking stories straight?I thought the conservative line was that there was nothing to out. Everybody and his brother knew that Plame worked for the FBI, according to you wingnuts.If you look at why Powell was first mentioned in this thread, it had to do with blacks voting as individuals and not merely toeing the party line. The claim was made that Blacks vote democratic because they have their hands out. . . except for a few brave, honest black individuals who vote for truth and conservatism.Well, one black conservative criticized the GOP. . . and is accused by conservatives everywhere of being. . . what? Stupid? racist (because he voted for a black man rather than the right man)? A traitor?You didn't take this opurtunity to say: "Gee, a prominent black man, who has always been a staunch republican, thinks the GOP is inhospitable to blacks. Maybe we should do something about that!"Nope. It is simply an article of faith among you that when a white person is accused of racism, the race card is being played.You're tired of being called racist. . . but you're not tired of being racist.
"1) You despise racism. . . when you are the target. Blacks are just being big babies. Understood.2) Homosexuality is worse than racism in your mind? I can't believe I wasted any time or effort arguing with a person who thinks that."Did you even bother to try and comprehend what you respond to, or just react like a machine?
I wonder if Powell is one of the Obama voters who is sorry.
"Nope. It is simply an article of faith among you that when a white person is accused of racism, the race card is being played."When a white person is accused of racism without even the barest evidence present beyond political disagreement... the race card IS being played.MoDo can hear "boy" in her head all day and all night long on an unending loop and it does not mean that she's magic and can read minds."You're tired of being called racist. . . but you're not tired of being racist."I'm tired of being called racist and I'm tired of all of the careful effort to avoid the accidental appearance of racism that used to seem a good-willed necessity to remove real racism from our culture... the avoidance of words, taking care to use the word "monkeys" for blond little children only, paying attention to context and different sets of rules in order to conform to whatever thing was now off limits. It seemed like a good thing, all this extra carefulness, because racism was worth defeating and inclusion seemed worth promoting. I'm absolutely certain I'm not the only one who felt this was something that should be done.I'm tired that the extra effort is not enough.And I'm even tired of the fact that not *being* racist is not enough.Nothing is enough.So screw it.I've watched in the last couple of years, quite apart from this political stupidity, the definition of racism change. Not being a racist is not enough because I am white. Thus I am a part of the oppressor class. Thus I am privileged. Thus I am guilty.Well, no purity in my heart of hearts matters. Nothing I do or say matters. And I can't change my race.So screw it.I just have to wait until enough of the younger generations intermarry and replace the old. It's more passive than the old efforts to combat racism, but eventually it will work.
I will take Thomas Sowell and give you 2 Colin Powells any day of the week.
Synova,"It seemed like a good thing, all this extra carefulness, because racism was worth defeating and inclusion seemed worth promoting. I'm absolutely certain I'm not the only one who felt this was something that should be done."Seemed like a good thing to whom? You're "absolutely certain" that others felt that this "extra carefulness" was a good thing?Then where did the constant shrieking about "politicial correctness" and "speech codes" and "thought police" come from during the eighties and nineties. . . and on through today?Conservatives claim to hate racism, and I'm willing to believe you. But what simply OUTRAGES you is any attempt to undo the effects of racism.That's the only thing that gets you riled up. racism gets a "tsk, tsk". . . anti-racism makes your blood boil.And you all seem completely oblivious to the ramifications of this.
What outrages me are the attempts to undo the progress that has been made, to keep the fires burning, to keep finding more to be upset about, to continue to find racism under every rock and to constantly demand that people are sorry for past offenses that are not even their own.And then the lectures about coming to terms start, and repairing damages and healing start.How does any of that undo the affects of racism? Where is the road from where we are now to a place where people are not judged by the color of their skin?There is no road. We're just supposed to feel bad all the time.I had this discussion with a friend who was insisting that it was absolutely necessary for any decent person to accept the doctrine of white privilege and racism defined by racial membership, by class, oppressor and oppressed. That black people, by definition as a member of an oppressed class could not be racist. That every single white person in the world was absolutely racist because of their birth.I asked how that got us to a place where racism was defeated.She didn't know. There was no road there. No way to go forward at all.But a person I previously considered thoughtful and rather smart considered anyone who wasn't willing to accept this uncritically, not to have a different opinion but to be hateful.I'm not outraged that someone wants to undo the effects of racism.I'm outraged that they don't.
I thought the conservative line was that there was nothing to out. Everybody and his brother knew that Plame worked for the FBI, according to you wingnuts.The offensiveness, idiocy, and ignorance in each of your comments is just astonishing.I am becoming convinced that you're a clever parody character made up by a conservative, who comments here only to make liberals look like complete and utter buffoons.
AC245 ,You got me. CIA. I misspoke. . . and so have discredited myself in the eyes of a bunch of partisan hacks.Woe is me. Way to miss the original point, which was perfectly clear: Conservatives don't believe that Plame was outed in any way, nothing inappropriate was done. . . and it was Powell's fault anyway!Stay crazy, wingnuts.
"I'm not outraged that someone wants to undo the effects of racism.I'm outraged that they don't."Then you must be outraged that Obama has been simply dismissed as racist on no evidence.
Obama hasn't been *dismissed* by anyone.And how is, just to pick one, assuming guilt and innocence on the basis of race alone over an incident he had no details for NOT racist?How does this translate to "no evidence" for you?
Synova,"And how is, just to pick one, assuming guilt and innocence on the basis of race alone over an incident he had no details for NOT racist?"You mean the gates affair? Obama sided with the citizen against a cop. Every libertarian. . . I mean REAL libertarian, who see libertariansism as a constraint on action and belief, and not just a cool label like "maverick". . . did the same.Since when do conservatives side with armed government agents who arrest a man in his own home and who has not committed a crime?The knee jerk reaction should be in favor of the citizen, no?Given NO DETAILS at all, I would have thought any conservative worth the name would side with the citizen.How wrong I was!
Way to miss the original point, which was perfectly clear: Conservatives don't believe that Plame was outed in any way, nothing inappropriate was done. . . and it was Powell's fault anyway!Your "original point," aside from not being perfectly clear, was factually wrong.And even though you seem to have figured out that the FBI and the CIA are two different agencies, you still don't seem to understand that Powell and Armitage are two different people.The evidence mounts that you're commenting here simply to make liberals look as buffoonish and cartoonish as possible. But that function is already being adequately performed by long-term commenters like FLS, Garage, L.E. Lee, hdhouse, Jeremy, and somefeller; they really don't need any more help.
AC245,"And even though you seem to have figured out that the FBI and the CIA are two different agencies, you still don't seem to understand that Powell and Armitage are two different people."You can't be this stupid and/or weasley.First of all, neither Armitage nor Powell could have "outed" Plame. . . since according to you wingnuts, she wasn't outed at all, right? And just to be clear: You are lying about that.Second, We were not talking about Armitage, or Plame. We were talking about how Powell was an example of a republican/conservative who had become fed up with the party and endorsed Obama. . . and who was immediately attacked by the right, rather than being ongratulated on his independent mindedness. In fact, you yourself brought up Armitage for no other reason than to dismiss Powell (Armitage's boss) as "not really a conservative" or something. Don't you remember?Fer crying out loud, could you try to follow the goddamn argument? You don't have to agree, but could you fucking keep up?
"Given NO DETAILS at all, I would have thought any conservative worth the name would side with the citizen."Given NO DETAILS at all, I would assume that anyone who cared about reason and rationality, including both conservatives and libertarians... would refrain from making a judgment.A *real* libertarian or conservative doesn't see police officers as sub-human lackeys whose lives are worth no more than their paychecks and who are required to assume risks and responsibilities for social and community order and safety so that "citizens" don't have to sully their own hands with self-defense.You can't figure out why conservatives support the military or police or other public "servants."I can never figure out why liberals insist on treating their "servants" like shit.
Well, phosphorious, you're certainly within your rights to comment here in a fashion that depicts liberals as ignorant, ill-mannered buffoons.I don't think many people will take your over-the-top parody seriously for much longer.
"Given NO DETAILS at all, I would assume that anyone who cared about reason and rationality, including both conservatives and libertarians... would refrain from making a judgment."Nope. . . presumption in favor of the citizen, not the state.Foundation of democracy.Can't believe you didn't know that.
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