September 11, 2009

"Remembering the Horror of a Bright Blue Morning."

8 years now.

137 comments:

MadisonMan said...

Maybe it's a good thing that today is very rainy on the east coast.

Lem said...

That was a terrible day.

Kirby Olson said...

Why did Giuliani poll so poorly in Florida? He was so great during the crisis.

The Drill SGT said...

I was struck by the sterility of the lead sentence. Oh those evil planes hurt those buildings.

Eight years ago, hijacked passenger jets destroyed the World Trade Center.

The Drill SGT said...

At 8:46 a.m., American Airlines Flight 11 struck World Trade Center Tower 1 Rick Rescorla, following his evacuation plans, ignored building officials' advice to stay put and began the orderly evacuation of Morgan Stanley's 2,700 employees on twenty floors of World Trade Center Tower 2, and 1,000 employees in WTC 5. Rescorla reminded everyone to "...be proud to be an American ...everyone will be talking about you tomorrow", and sang God Bless America and other military and Cornish songs over his bullhorn to help evacuees stay calm as they left the building, including an adaptation of the song Men of Harlech.

He was last seen heading up the stairs of the tenth floor of the collapsing WTC 2. His remains were not recovered. As a result of Rescorla's actions, all but 6 of Morgan Stanley's 2700 WTC employees survived. Four of the six included Rick and three of his deputies who followed him back into the building - Wesley Mercer, Jorge Velazquez, and Godwin Forde.


Absent Companions!

TosaGuy said...

Google forgot.

Bing remembered

Rialby said...

Where are our truther friends this morning? They must have something valuable to add to this conversation.

MadisonMan said...

Tosa, I saw that too. Curious.

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The Drill SGT said...

The simple answer is that Google doesn't think of itself as an American company, but rather as a "Citizen of the World". It very seldom honors Memorial Day, July 4th, or Veteran's Day. Those are too Jingoist.

Deb said...

The Flowers of the Forest.

I was surprised last night, watching a video of that morning, how strong my emotions still are. My daughters were too young them to really understand and in trying to explain to them how I felt that morning, watching the events, I could not even speak.

Original Mike said...

Still makes me tear up. I suppose it always will.

XWL said...

You're doing it wrong, this is how the Obama Administration expects you to remember:

"ServiceNation (www.servicenaton.org) is a national campaign to increase service opportunities and elevate service as a core ideal and problem-solving strategy in American society. Reaching an estimated 100 million citizens through its 200-plus member groups, ServiceNation played a leading role in the drafting and April 2009 enactment of the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act, which authorizes the greatest expansion of national service in America since FDR created the Civilian Conservation Corps. Now that the Act has passed, the ServiceNation coalition is working to inspire a powerful culture of volunteerism in our country through the promotion of national days of service and strategic partnerships. We envision an America in which a commonly asked question is, “Where do you serve?” "

Florida said...

You can watch live coverage of that day's events from start to finish at the Internet Archive.

Live coverage from CNN, ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox and the BBC.

http://www.archive.org/details/sept_11_tv_archive

Eight years later, these scenes are still riveting and sad. I watch the vidoes each year, so that I don't forget what it feels like to watch my country attacked by Saudi Arabian terrorists.

Apropos this, here's a photo of Barack Obama, your President, bowing down to Saudi King Faud:

http://homepage.mac.com/gerardharbison/blog/images/0grovelling.jpg

Bissage said...

José Meléndez-Pérez.

SteveR said...

Let's Roll!

JAL said...

This is my touchstone piece.

Wall Street Journal published September 12, 2001.

Even though they did not have their offices anymore.

I Saw It All. Then I Saw Nothing.

Quayle said...

Lots of memories from when I worked at 4 WTC.

Sam said...

Deb the same thing happened to me this morning as I tried to explain the moments of silence and the names on the bottom of the television screen to my eight year old this morning.

Joan said...

The kids are happy that it's Friday, the end of a short-but-still-long week of school, the weekend nearly upon us.

I remember leaning over my youngest's crib, trying to soothe him back to sleep. It was only about 6:30. My husband came in and told me "They attacked the towers in New York." I couldn't understand what he was talking about. Who was "they"? Why would they attack us? I picked up the baby and brought him back downstairs, and walked with him in front of the television news reports. He fell asleep on my shoulder as the world changed all around us.

A bit later I woke up his brother and sister and fed them breakfast and took them to their schools. The skies were empty and silent.

We'll talk about 9/11 after school today, at least a little.

And then we'll go on.

Methadras said...

I'll never forget it and I hope none of my fellow Americans do either.

The Drill SGT said...

I was at work in Alexandria VA. I had worked at the Pentagon and my firm had staff there that day. We had a flat screen in our lobby, and if you walked to the other side of the building, you could see smoke rising from the Pentagon.

Didn't see plane 1 go in obviously, but we were watching on TV when the second one went in. The first had to be a terrible accident, the second made it enemy action. Many of us were vets and I remember my words to the retired Colonel next to me:

We're at war. I don't know who with, but we're at war

I feel that way still, but I have a blue star in my window and friends/employees in afghanistan.

hdhouse said...

XWL said...

I won't quote it as I am not sure if he meant well or this is just "in poorest taste possible" swipe at the President.

Please explain if it is the former. If it is just an attempt at a cheap political shot which, by the way, fell short, then please move on.

BJM said...

Google has been assimilated into the Obamaborg.

Obama and Michelle found time in their schedules to visit NYC for a date night but not 9/11?

Riiight.



WV: inging = the involuntary gagging sound triggered by Obama speaking.

Irene said...

I was an associate working at a big law firm. The building housing the firm offices closed shortly after the planes hit the WTC. My boss, shaken by the events, left work, announcing that he was going home to watch the news reports on TV. He left me with a last-minute, but quite substantial, drafting assignment that was due the next morning. I stayed in that closed office building until 9:30 that night, drafting away. When I returned home, my family recounted the images they had followed during the course of the day. The next morning, I started looking for a new job. I am in a much happier place now.

ricpic said...

When was the last time you saw the footage of people jumping to their deaths? The MSM have done everything in their power to make us forget.

Deb said...

There is a video on You Tube taken by some folks living within blocks of the WTC - at least it looked that close to me. It is a real time document, and it is chilling to watch the events that close up. Then they started jumping out of the buildings, and the reactions of the individuals taking the video is just heartbreaking andI'm sure echoes what all of us were feeling that day.

Original Mike said...

Hmm. I've never used Bing. Think I'll give it a try.

AJ Lynch said...

servicenation.org

barackobama.com

Who pays for all these websites ? The taxpayers?

AllenS said...

I was sitting at my newly bought computer, enjoying the new toy. I heard about the attack on the radio. Then I turned on the tv. I remembered when the towers were bombed earlier and it didn't surprise me when they were attacked again. I had already purchased airplane tickets and rented a room in Washington, DC for a Nov. 11th veterans day meetup with my unit and people that I served with. Nov. 9th, the terminal in Minneapolis where I flew out from was very quiet. The plane was 1/4th full. Upon approaching Reagan airfield, the plane banked and I could see 1/5 of the Pentagon missing. While we were at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, watching the changing of the guard, I wondered what it was like on 9/11 for people who were standing there, like myself, that day. If it hadn't been for the fact that I was going to be with combat veterans, I never would have went.

Rialby said...

Go here and watch this...

Bill Whittle's Trifecta on Remembering 9/11

AJ Lynch said...

I was working in Alabama that day. Had to drive back to Philly on Thursday cause getting a plane ticket was too iffy.

Greg Hlatky said...

My boss, shaken by the events, left work, announcing that he was going home to watch the news reports on TV. He left me with a last-minute, but quite substantial, drafting assignment that was due the next morning. I stayed in that closed office building until 9:30 that night, drafting away.

"To our staff: America and the world are horrified and shaken by the terrible events of today. I myself cannot go on working effectively.

"However, I wish to point out to our associates that if we do not keep up our billable hours, the terrorists will have won. I cannot sufficiently stress the importance of nitpicking proofing and cite-checking at this pivotal time in the history of our nation. So keep at it.

"Yours sincerely,
Samuel T. Shyster, Partner
Dewey, Cheatham and Howe LLP"

edutcher said...

TosaGuy:
Google forgot.

Bing remembered.


Time to change search engines - permanently.

Damned straight Never Forget!

...And that includes all the guys - and women - who've put it on the line since... the ones Durbin and Teddy Kennedy called Nazis.

Fred4Pres said...

Remember and never forget. It breaks my heart everytime I think of it, but it is right to remember.

Triangle Man said...

Drill Sgt.

Google always commemorates Independence Day, but you're right, they have never commemorated 9/11, Veterans Day, or Memorial Day that I remember.

Chip Ahoy said...

I saw this commemoration televised and watched until Himself suddenly appeared, sans squirrel hat, he with squirrel balls enough to appear at the commemoration Himself did attempt to replace with call to public service.

Bah. That well ruined it.

Revenant said...

Remember and never forget.

And never forgive.

Rialby said...

I would now like to share an excerpt from a poem about 9/11 from the newsletter of the Trinity United Church of Christ, published back in 2006 when the church's most famous member (not Oprah), was still a tithing parishioner.

From "Sept 11 - A Moment of Silence for All Those Others":

Before I start this poem,
I’d like to ask you to join me in
a moment of silence
in honour of those who died
in the World Trade Centre
and the Pentagon
last September 11th.

I would also like to ask you
a moment of silence
for all of those who have been
harassed, imprisoned, disappeared,
tortured, raped, or killed
in retaliation for those strikes,
for the victims in both
Afghanistan and the U.S.

And if I could just add one more thing…
A full day of silence
for the tens of thousands of Palestinians
who have died at the hands of
U.S.-backed Israeli forces
over decades of occupation.

...

Because this is not a 9-1-1 poem
This is a 9/10 poem,
It is a 9/9 poem,
A 9/8 poem,
A 9/7 poem
This is a 1492 poem.
This is a poem about
what causes poems like this
to be written

And if this is a 9/11 poem, then
This is a September 11th poem
for Chile, 1971
This is a September 12th poem
for Steven Biko in South Africa, 1977
This is a September 13th poem
for the brothers at Attica Prison,
New York, 1971.

This is a September 14th poem
for Somalia, 1992.
This is a poem for every date that
fallsto the ground in ashes
This is a poem for the 110 stories
that were never told
The 110 stories that history
chose not to write in textbooks
The 110 stories that CNN, BBC,
The New York Times,
and Newsweek ignored

...If you want a moment of silence
Then stop the oil pumps
Turn off the engines and the televisions
Sink the cruise ships
Crash the stock markets
Unplug the marquee lights,
Delete the instant messages,
Derail the trains, the light rail transit

If you want a moment of silence,
put a brick through
the window of Taco Bell,
And pay the workers for wages lost
Tear down the liquor stores,
The townhouses, the White Houses,
the jailhouses, the Penthouses and
the Playboys.

AlphaLiberal said...

8 years ago, Americans and other nationals suffered and died. We all felt the shock and rallied around the President - even me and other liberals who worked hard to keep him out of the Oval Office.

We did it because our nation was under attack.

I completely believe if it happened today the right wing, after a brief period of hours or days - would use it as an excuse to attack and try to weaken President Obama. (And Althouse would cheer them on).

Dick and Liz Cheney and other Repubs have already started to lay down the markers for this with their claims that Obama's break with their belligerence and torture and emphasis on diplomacy sow the seeds of insecurity.

It's a sad thing, really, and reveals these people as caring far more about party than country.

Chip Ahoy said...

Believe whatever you wish, you douchebag, you're a lost cause.

Quayle said...

The Devil laughs when he gets people to believe that the Devil is another human.

Imagine: a Church of "Christ" that spends all its time talking about how bad some other people are.

traditionalguy said...

The 48th Infantry Brigade of the Georgia national Guard is in Afghanistan today for its third deployment in 5 years, the first two were in Iraq.Its CO was in the Pentagon at the exact site of the 9/11 Kamikase attack and he had to pull his friends out of the fires. He is also my friend, and he is not worth sacrificing in the fires of Afghanistan for a few more talking points in Washington DC's political games. No one really expects to ever see any change in the tribal Afghanistan Mountains for another 1000 years, no matter how many good men are sacrificed over there.

Sofa King said...

My state of mind about it all is probably best described by the fact that I found myself humming Largo from the New World Symphony today.

David said...

8 years.

In the first 4 years after Pearl Harbor we fought and won a terrible war in which probably 40,000,000 people died worldwide. Most of those died of wounds, starvation and organized extermination inflicted by Japan and Germany, who started the wars. Over 400,000 American soldiers were among the dead.

When the war was over, we conducted a peaceful and non-punative occupation of Japan and Germany. American efforts avoided mass starvation in both countries in the winter of 1945-46, and eventually our occupations lead (as we intended) to a revival of both countries as prosperous and free nations.

Since September 11, 2001 we have also been engaged in a war, fought mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have deposed two ruthlessly authoritarian regimes and, while the final outcome is still in doubt, both nations have come a long way towards democratic societies. While we have lost near 5000 soldiers, there has been no further direct attack on our nation.

There has also been no wider war, nothing even remotely approaching the scale of World War II. One reason why there has been no wider war is that American power is so overwhelming that no one, even wild fanatics, think they would have a remote chance of success if they directly challenged American military power.

This is an exceptional achievement by American policy, military action and statecraft.

Yet we now are governed by people who use "American Exceptionalism" as a derisive term. They view the successful operation in Iraq as a mistaken sideshow at best, to (at worst) a nefarious plot by war hungry fascists. While the President still says that he supports strong action in Afghanistan, his actions have not been decisive. The prominent and not so prominent among his followers are edging away from support of continuing action. Most of our supposed allies in Europe, who were supposed to be enthralled by our new leader, are declining increased or further responsibility in this struggle.

It is now 68 years since Pearl Harbor, but only eight since 9/11. What our nation did after Pearl Harbor looks remarkable from this vantage. "Exceptional," if you will.

Sixty years from now, how will our long term response to 9/11 look? Is there anyone in predominant power today in our country who has that question in the forefront of his or her mind?

AJ Lynch said...

Ditto to what Chip said.

Florida said...

"I completely believe if it happened today the right wing, after a brief period of hours or days - would use it as an excuse to attack and try to weaken President Obama."

I believe he'd be the reason it happened.

Barack Obama has already weakened the country, and has lessened our security.

Barack Hussein Obama is the only President in our history who has released terrorists back into the world.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090911/wl_asia_afp/usattacksguantanamopalauchina_20090911175842

He is also the only President who has bowed down before a foreign Saudi king.

If we are attacked again, he should be impeached and put into jail.

Shanna said...

Google forgot.

Bitches.

I can't believe it's been eight years. I was in DC on 9/11.

Original Mike said...

I completely believe if it happened today ...

It's a sad thing, really, and reveals ...


Your delusions don't "reveal" anything.

Well, other than about you.

Shanna said...

if you walked to the other side of the building, you could see smoke rising from the Pentagon.

Drill SGT I didn't know you were there too. We could see smoke from Capitol Hill as well.

peter hoh said...

I can still remember hearing the breaking news on the radio, turning on the TV, and then seeing the second tower hit.

The church service that evening was certainly one of the most emotional services I ever attended.

The Drill SGT said...

Shanna,

My wife as working across the street at FAA HQ that day. Took her a long time to get home after attacks. Yellow line through the Pentagon station.

AllenS said...

AlphaLiberal said...

"I completely believe if it happened today the right wing, after a brief period of hours or days - would use it as an excuse to attack and try to weaken President Obama."

Well, if his response was to bomb the fuck out of some aspirin factory, you probably would be correct.

rdkraus said...

I remember hearing about on the phone it from a clerk at the court house. I went outside and could see the smoke in the distance (not the buildings though). I thought it was a small plane and no big deal. Well, wrong. Even days later I could not really believe it happened.

Even now, whenever I drive down the NJ Turnpike, I look over at where the towers used to be. Unlike many others, I thought they were beautiful. A monument to what a free people could achieve. Two shafts reaching up, up, up ....

The Drill SGT said...

Well, if his response was to bomb the fuck out of some aspirin factory, you probably would be correct.

or give a speech about chickens coming home to roost, or America's world guilt, or Muslim contributions to the Enlightenment.

Shanna said...

My wife as working across the street at FAA HQ that day. Took her a long time to get home after attacks. Yellow line through the Pentagon station.

I had my car and I took 295 because 395 was filled with debris. I remember when I drove to work that morning I was listening to a cd so I didn't hear the news until I was parking that the first tower had been hit. Then we were watching tv and saw the second one. Then we were all kind of talking about that and my coworker goes "they said smoke at the Pentagon" and everyone shut the hell up.

What was really hard was to drive past the big whole in the Pentagon for the whole time they were rebuilding it. The first week I went another way (jeff davis?) rather than 395 because it freaked me out so much.

Rialby said...

AL: Dick and Liz Cheney and other Repubs have already started to lay down the markers for this with their claims that Obama's break with their belligerence and torture and emphasis on diplomacy sow the seeds of insecurity.

I would argue that certain members of the Left have already stayed laying down the markers for their own argument: poor Obama has only been the President for a very short period of time and therefore he couldn't be to blame for anything negative that happens on his watch. It's all Liz and Dick Cheney's fault.

peter hoh said...

Drill Sgt, a member of my church was one of the Red Cross chaplains assigned to the WTC site after 9/11. He told us another story similar to the Rick Rescorla story -- about a manager shepherding his people out and then going back for more, never to return. I wish I could remember that man's name. Unlike Rick, he had recently been transferred to his company's offices in the WTC.

The Drill SGT said...

What was really hard was to drive past the big whole in the Pentagon for the whole time they were rebuilding it. The first week I went another way (jeff davis?) rather than 395 because it freaked me out so much.

Then you didn't get to see that big ass flag hanging down the side?

peter hoh said...

My memorial will be to listen to "The Rising."

And I'm going to avoid getting into any pissing matches in this thread.

Rialby said...

Peter, do you mean John O'Neill?

MadisonMan said...

traditionalguy, I hope your friend returns unscathed. My nephew is supposed to be back at the end of this month. Initially it was the beginning of the month, but his stay was extended by 2 or 3 weeks.

I had to roll my eyes at some of the stuff I've heard today. Some talkinghead was saying that Obama has been President about the same amount of time that Bush was when 9/11 hit. Hello? It's the exact same amount of time. Today is 9/11! Okay, it's nitpicky, but that kind of imprecision in talkingheadiness really frosts my cookies.

Shanna said...

Then you didn't get to see that big ass flag hanging down the side?

Oh yeah, I saw that. I went by it several times. Actually, you can still see it from where you get on 395 from jeff davis.

It was just...every day for what was it months? was a big gaping reminder of what had happened.

hdhouse said...

what a bunch of sick lunatic freaks.

AJ Lynch said...

Peter:

That is a great idea. I have that CD at home and will do the same.

MadisonMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shanna said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Drill SGT said...

Peter,

Wiki has an interesting back story on Rick. Cornishman, Vietnam hero, etc. But the part you might like is:

In 1992 Rescorla warned the Port Authority (owner of the World Trade Center) about the possibility of a truck bomb attack on the pillars in the basement parking garage, but was ignored. When Islamist terrorists used this method in the 1993 attack, Rescorla was instrumental in evacuating the building, and was the last man out.

Rescorla recommended to his superiors at Morgan Stanley that the company leave Manhattan. Office space and labor costs were lower in New Jersey, and the firm's employees and equipment would be safer in a proposed four-story building. However, this recommendation was not followed as the company's lease at the World Trade Center did not terminate until 2006. At Rescorla’s insistence, all employees, including senior executives, then practiced emergency evacuations every three months.


Prior planning prevents piss poor performance

peter hoh said...

Rialby, no it wasn't John O'Neill. It was a younger man -- from the midwest, as I recall.

And I'm pretty sure he was not in a managerial position rather than a security position.

LarsPorsena said...

"Wiki has an interesting back story on Rick. Cornishman, Vietnam hero, etc. But the part you might like is:.."

Rescorla's picture is on the cover of the book "We Were Soldiers Once.."
Cigarette dangling form his mouth, bayonet fixed, leading his men from the front....

Sad, sad ,sad. After surviving the battles in the Ia Drang, he deserved a quiet retirement.

Robert Cook said...

"Why did Giuliani poll so poorly in Florida? He was so great during the crisis."

Maybe because Giuliani is a pompous asshole and flaming scumbag. During his eight years in office, he had about a day and a half there where he acted as we expect those we place in office to act, and he's hardly to be hailed for that as any great statesman. 9/11 was primary day in NYC, and Giuliani's term in office was done; whoever would be elected to succeed him--Bloomberg, as it turned out--would take office in January 2002. Giuliani, full of himself at his least of times, (which was usually), felt he was too important to be cast aside during NY's "crisis," and he tried to manage it so he could stay in office an additional six months to help us through our "trauma."

New Yorkers would have none of that and gave Rudy's self-serving notion a proud Bronx Raspberry.

chickenlittle said...

@hdhouse: STFU

save it for tomorrow please.

Rialby said...

Interesting - we are now almost as far away from 9/11 as 9/11 was from the first WTC bombing.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

My memorial will be to listen to "The Rising."

Good idea Peter. I think I will do the same.

chickenlittle said...

Robert Cook said...

Maybe because Giuliani is a pompous asshole and flaming scumbag.

I think some names got transposed.

bagoh20 said...

9/11/2001 again showed us that there is no limit to the extent which we will hurt each other for ideas. Ideas incompatible with other ideas and given power with willful lack of either logic or compassion. Maybe every generation has such an experience, and I fear that even if we manage to skip a generation that the next will simply make up the difference.

Since then I have learned a lot about the world. In general, I‘ve learned that my country is far better than even my patriotic bias declared. I also learned that the world is far uglier than I thought. Of course this sounds jingoist and some may say it’s exactly the kind of thinking that creates the problems, but I can’t deny what has transpired before my eyes just because it does not follow a basic egalitarian world view that has quickly evaporated into a more honest and pragmatic one.

All ideas are not equal and even the good ideas can be used to terrible ends. The danger comes from all directions and all ideas are susceptible. Do the ends justify the means? First we need ask if the ends justify our existence. Does what we want make us and the world better? If so, then we pursue it by whatever means necessary. Our enemies will do the same and unless we agree with their ends, we must join the battle or accept their ends. There is no third way.

Robert Cook said...

@DAVID at 1:44 pm:

"Since September 11, 2001 we have also been engaged in a war, fought mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have deposed two ruthlessly authoritarian regimes and, while the final outcome is still in doubt, both nations have come a long way towards democratic societies. While we have lost near 5000 soldiers, there has been no further direct attack on our nation.

There has also been no wider war, nothing even remotely approaching the scale of World War II. One reason why there has been no wider war is that American power is so overwhelming that no one, even wild fanatics, think they would have a remote chance of success if they directly challenged American military power.

This is an exceptional achievement by American policy, military action and statecraft."


It must be nice to view the world as if it were a Sgt. Rock comic book.

There's been no wider war because there was no one with intentions of going to war against us; there was only a small band of stateless terrorists who managed, against odds, to successfully carry out a terrible assault on America that required their hijacking our commercial aircraft. They have no armies, no long-range missles, no aircraft or other force to marshall against us; they had only a handful of men with box-cutters.

They never had the means to do much more than what they accomplished that day. It should have been apparent immediately to everyone that the terrorists had shot their wad and had done the worst they could do. After that, they were spent, and are spent. That we perceive such rag tag criminals as an existential threat to our country is the result only of the concerted propaganda efforts of an administration determined to usurp the people's power for itself, and who thus used fear to compel our compliance with their ruinous plans for war.

Robert Cook said...

Chicken Little:

Okay, I can agree: Giuliani is a pompous scumbag and flaming asshole.

daubiere said...

it's terrible that Rick Rescorla and almost 5000 American soldiers had to die while the robert cooks of the world get to live on and corrode what's left of america from the inside.

Roger J. said...

probably best to remember the dead--unfortunately in our society today, it becomes another excuse to inject partisan vitriol and partisan agenda. Sad what our country has become. really sad.

AllenS said...

Unfortunately, commenting is an open forum. If, Althouse would have set parameters, such as "What were your thoughts on that day, 9/11. Maybe... oh, what in the hell am I thinking, no, no it always sinks into something shitty.

Ralph L said...

It still amazes me how lucky we were that 30,000 weren't killed instead of 3,000. How revolting to be thankful for that.

My dad and I drove up the road from 395 to Memorial Bridge, right by the Pentagon damage, the first Saturday that it reopened, near the end of September. There was a crowd on the hillside opposite just standing there.

After we drove around an ANSWER rally next to the White House, we walked his dog up to the Capitol. A beautiful day, and we were the only people near the building. That freaked me out later, that people were still scared.

Robert Cook said...

"it's terrible that Rick Rescorla and almost 5000 American soldiers had to die while the robert cooks of the world get to live on and corrode what's left of america from the inside."

Yes, it is a shame that all our men and women sent to fight a fabricated war have been killed and maimed...for nothing. Well, rather, not for nothing, but for worse than nothing: to further the acquisitive imperial aims of a cabal of criminals in Washington, fought, as always, under the false flag of "defending our freedoms." Our soldiers deserve better than to be used so cynically for such squalid purposes, and yet...so it always is.

daubiere said...

our soldiers aren't children you scumbag. cry your crocodile tears somewhere else. we know your game, we know your side used their deaths to play your sick little game. you don't give a fuck about our military unless you think it can score you some points.

again its sickening that heroes die so that cowards like you can live on to destroy the country and the people they died for.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ralph L said...

It should have been apparent immediately to everyone that the terrorists had shot their wad and had done the worst they could do

And when Iran gets the bomb and N Korea sells theirs?

It is obvious, now, that they hadn't planned a follow up attack on us, but what about Madrid and London?

Roger J. said...

you know, Robert Cook--I have had the privilege of leading your fathers and uncles into combat--they are not mindless sheep--the sacrifical lambs that you suggest--the are the best our country offers--after 40 years I can still tell you the name of every soldier I lost--your foolish description of them as pawns only tells my you have no idea of honor, duty, or country. A soldier's death is only a talking point to further your personal agenda-

AllenS said...

Roger J, well said. However, you are talking to a box of rocks.

Robert Cook said...

Daubiere: it appears it is you who hate our soldiers, for your failure to be outraged at their purposeless and unnecessary deaths.

Ralph L., you're conflating unrelated entities: Iran has nothing to with N. Korea and neither had anthing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11; in this, they are the same as Iraq, which also had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11. Moreover, whether Iran will develop a nuclear weapon or not remains to be seen. So far, we've heard only unsupported fear-mongering by the usual cadre of fear-mongerers, (who always have their own purposes), and given the many nations that already possess too-ample nuclear stockpiles, America chief among them, I puzzle at why we're supposed to fear so particularly and so terribly the supposed aims of either Iran or N. Korea.

The Drill SGT said...

after 40 years I can still tell you the name of every soldier I lost

interestingly I joined the Army 40 years ago this last Wednesday. I was pretty much a REMF for the last part of my tour, but until I got my TS/SCI I had a couple of personal encounters with the NVA.

my most vivid memories are of night fire fights. green tracers coming in, red ones going out. If you saw the green tracers as long dots and dashes streaking across the sky, no sweat, they were going somewhere else.

If you saw a green flashing dot, look-out! the NVA machine gun was pointed right at you.

See MM, applied physics (parallax) on the battlefield.

that and counting mortars. blonk, blonk, blonk, one valley over.

boom..., boom..., seemingly endless pause until the 3rd of 3 landed boom

Roger J. said...

Drill--you and have to get together for a beer (or two or three)--unless you served in Viet Nam no one knows what colors tracers are-

you do, of course know what is the difference between a war story and a fairy tale? of course you do. a fairy tale starts "once upon a time..." a war story starts "this is no shit..."

traditionalguy said...

Robert Cook...I understand your critcism of useless wars. But you also need to come to terms with the fact that most people will attack other people seen as weak targets. When we attack our attackers first and employ winning tactics, then we are Defending ourselves and our children. If a man cannot agree with that truth, then he is only stubbornly refusing to hear it. I suspect that Israel will destroy Iran's "peaceful electrical power generating" U-235 fission bomb factories before December. Will you condemn that too?

miller said...

It was a beautiful sunny blue sky morning. I was getting coffee at Starbucks when I noticed the cashiers were visibly upset that a plane had hit the WTC. Someone piped in that a helicopter had crashed into the Pentagon. I returned to my car, flipped on the radio to hear the news reader crying and sobbing about the attack on the WTC and Pentagon.

And that was the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st.

JAL said...

I puzzle at why we're supposed to fear so particularly and so terribly the supposed aims of either Iran or N. Korea.

Because they are run by lunatics and religious fanatics (<--- not the Christianists who hang out in parks telling you to repent, the do-it-my-way or we bury-you-up-to- your-neck-and-throw-stones-at-your-head-til-you're-dead, or whip-you-40-times-til-we-draw-lots-of-blood type fanatics) whose moral compass precludes them from balanced thinking. Whose desire is to destroy.

North Korea lets it little children STARVE to death so the little man can feel powerful. Iran says it wants to blow Israel out of existence because it doesn't have the right to exist.

There is no moral compass with these people, and once they start blowing things up, they don't care what the result is.

Little self righteous there, RC.

WV sessn
BHO is going to head up a UN Security Council sessn Sept 24.
The agenda does not include addressing the boatload of weapons the UAE intercepted NK was sending to Iran. (To use to kill US, coalition and Iraqi troops. Among other things.)

David said...

Well, I see I brought Robert Cook out from under his rock. I present his comments as firm evidence that I was more or less correct.

And Robert, if the terrorists "shot their wad" in September 11, why is Obama still giving speeches about how relentless he will be in rooting out Al Queda? Why was so firm (rhetorically) about the prosecution of the Afgan war.

(I do not purport to know whether Obama means it when he says these things. His actions will tell, not his words. He will have to stand up to members of his party. Will he? I don't know. But for now O's words refute your silly claim that the terrorists shot their wad.)

Robert Cook said...

"I suspect that Israel will destroy Iran's "peaceful electrical power generating" U-235 fission bomb factories before December. Will you condemn that too?"

If they bomb Iran without evidence they are defending themselves against an imminent attack against them by Iran, yes.

Robert Cook said...

"...if the terrorists 'shot their wad' in September 11, why is Obama still giving speeches about how relentless he will be in rooting out Al Queda?"

Perhaps because it serves as an easy and reflexive justification for America to continue its wars abroad. No nation ever waged war with the frank admission that its aim was a naked grab for power and resources; all nations, even Nazi Germany, discuss their war efforts as necessary "self-defense," as fighting to preserve "the homeland" or "the fatherland" or "freedom" or whatever other phrase serves. Hitler painted his aggression as self-defense against Poland. I don't equate Bush with Hitler in the larger sense, but we used similar lies to justify our aggression against Iraq, and to build support for the war among the American people: we claimed self-defense against Hussein's supposed imminent attack on us. It helped to tie Hussein to Al Qaeda, thus arousing our vengeful emotions. But it was all lies and propaganda, and Obama is utilizing customary language to paint our continued wars abroad as necessary and "good," of which they are neither.

Don't think I disregard terrorism as a dangerous force in the world, a threat to all law-abiding nations, but there are appropriate and proportionate and more effective responses and inappropriate and disproportionate and less effective responses to acts of terrorism.

Additionally, what do we mean by "terrorism" and "terrorists?" Certainly, the men who hijacked four airplanes and killed thousands on 9/11 were terrorists and criminals. But what of those we detain in Guantanamo and elsewhere? We don't know who most of them are, where they were detained, or why they're there. We know after the fact that many were innocents who were turned in for bounty money by opportunists or by people with whom they may simply have had disagreements; others seem to have simply been picked up at random, or in dragnets, or because they had names similar to alleged terrorists, or because they had friends or family who were alleged to be and may have been "terrorists;" still others may actually have participated in or planned terrorist acts against America or Americans; others may actually have been fighters, but fighters who saw themselves as defending their homeland against the invasion of an outside enemy force...that is, us.

If a foreign nation attacked America, would Americans who eluded capture and who carried out attacks against the occupying forces be terrorists or freedom fighters? Would those who cooperated with the occupying force be "good" "law-abiding" citizens or collaborationists?

David said...

Robert Cook, so Obama is a money grubbing, power mad, oil sucking imperialist too? Just another American leader who loves to play with real soldiers and planes instead of toys? Well then the rest of the world really is fucked, isn't it. Damn you are cynical Robert.

chickenlittle said...

If a foreign nation attacked America, would Americans who eluded capture and who carried out attacks against the occupying forces be terrorists or freedom fighters? Would those who cooperated with the occupying force be "good" "law-abiding" citizens or collaborationists?

relativistic much?

You stand for nothing.

Cedarford said...

9/11 eight years on .....some opinions complimentary and some critical.

1. It was good we decided to take the fight to the enemy. That was one strategic decision Bush got right. You cannot win playing only defense with ACLU lawyers championing terrorist rights, FBI doing nothing but waiting to see if something happens so they can have a career-enhancing criminal case to build. You can't win when people are saying - keep the military out of it - but have judges issue warrants, just search every container coming from Europe and X-ray every mango being trucked in from Mexico.

2. The cohesiveness of the uniformed city employees was admirable..though in some ways that narrative then diminished the role of "mere civilians" who died ignomously because the Heroes just didn't have enough time.

3. Within two years the Left, the progressive Jews, and Muslim apologists had recast the media narrative and the legal response to a criminal law enforcement problem..not a conflict with radical Islam. Not about a clash with an ideology, but about how the ACLU could best defend the rights of a handful of terrorists "actually involved in 9/11" who actually broke US civilian laws. And our focus must be on the dozen or so "criminals" that need to be captured, their rights, and their trial before a civilian judge. Not the 180-230 million Muslims that hold to radical ideology and how we win a global ideological struggle.

4. After real wars, major wars, where 100s of thousands or millions were killed whole destroyed cities were rebuilt in 5 years. Even ones that were flattened by nuclear bombs. That the "Sacred Site" is now 8 years on still "The Hole"/"The Pit" and nicknamed such is a National Disgrace. A symbol that America has lost the ability to make things work anymore. And simply wishes to wallow in endless Victimhood. A testimony to over-pandering to victim's families and 1,000 other special interest groups and their lawyers.

5. That the CIA, Spec Ops, and AF logistics and bombing command worked brilliantly in the 1st two years following 9/11 to understand AQ, impliment tactics to destroy 75% of it, and keep the surviving Islamoids from attacking the US again.
Naturally, 8 years later, the CIA learns no good deed goes unpunished. And the inept FBI and coterie of insider activist lawyers is again the eventual winner in intetnal politics in the Imperial City.
And the reward for Spec Ops and AF "tip of the spear" is endless combat tours to satiate Neocon demands for endless war - to them, Iraq was just the start of the American military bringing democracy, nation-building to a long list of nations at gunpoint. (Supposedly to safeguard us, and not "Our Special Friend").

Rich B said...

The History Channel, now.

Just Lurking said...

"Perhaps because it serves as an easy and reflexive justification for America to continue its wars abroad."

So, like Joe WIlson, you believe Obama is a liar.

"Don't think I disregard terrorism as a dangerous force in the world, a threat to all law-abiding nations, but there are appropriate and proportionate and more effective responses and inappropriate and disproportionate and less effective responses to acts of terrorism."

Maybe you can write on essay about this and send it to Obama, since your an expert and all that.

"But what of those we detain in Guantanamo and elsewhere?"

I'm all for military tribunals to sort out the thugs from the non-thugs. My question to you is, if we know all those people are innocent, why hasn't Obama let them go?

Maybe, for those who have to actually deal with the evil scum of the world, reality is not so simple as it seems to smug armchair quarterbacks sitting comfortably in their pjs typing on a keyboard.

Cedarford said...

More post 9/11 opinions:

6. In 20-20 hindsight, the Iraq War was a major mistake. Perhaps not the initial toppling of Saddam, but the decision to stay and become the Occupier and push the Bremer Decisions and other Neocon dreams.
In a recent poll, the noble ever-grateful Iraqi purple-fingered Freedom Lovers!! named their most popular Iraqi. The guy who tossed shoes at Bush's face. "I wished to disgrace him with the filth of a Bahgdad sewer I walked in struck right into his evil face by the shoe soles. I am only sorry I missed and that the fool thought the insult funny.." Sentence commuted, he is demurring from running for office in either of the two major Shiite political factions.

7. Like it or not, soon all the singing cops, reading of the names of the dead, the parades of thousands of the "Heroes" kin in government employ uniforms will fade. The A-list politicians will stop coming to get camera time hugging the Greatest Victim Families of All Time. 9/11 was a minor battle as wars go. There is literally not enough time in a day, a week, even a month, and in WWII and the Communist Democides..not enough time in a year to "read off victim names".
We don't have an Appotomax Day, a Galveston Hurricane day, a Vietnam Day and a JFK or MLK commemoration Day. Forces wanted to enshrine Nov 22 as a National Day of Sorrow. But each year, less and less people thought it was so special in contrast to the other 86 million Americans who died in the 46 years since JFK's demise - that it was worth noting.
Pearl Harbor Day is now an afterthought. Oklahoma City was worth about 6 years of commemoration significance. Now it is the site of a multi-million dollar "Memorial of Closure" and museum few bother to visit. Closure has indeed been achieved. Just not in the way people advising Clinton on "national therapy" envisioned.

8. America will be more vigilant after 9/11 and also learned from Katrina that "Bush's Evildoers" are not the only sort of threat America must cope with better than it has in our decline from being a "Can-Do" nation.
America has not yet fully faced the more damgerous threat within..that dwarfs the Al Qaeda threat. Loss of competitiveness, rampant organized and ever more sophisticated street thug and white collar crime gangs, rampant corruption and rule by business and lawyer elites, decay of most of our major cities, and loss of the fiscal base needed to sustain us as a vigorous nation with a high standard of living.
Bush ignored gathering domestic crisis on his watch to focus on "Noble Iraqi Freedom LOvers!!"

Cedarford said...

Finally:

9. 9/11 is a reminder that for business and the nations defense, it is foolhardy in a dangerous world to concentrate all assets into one place. Rescorla's warning that Morgan Stanley needed diffusion and redundancy in several geographic locations was ignored and almost did Morgan Stanley in. Had the WTC collapsed as soon as the plane hit, MS would have been crippled.
A lesson not heeded by all, in a day when a WMD attack is possible - as more and more of our Federal assets and power are concentrated by the Elites into one Imperial City - Washington DC. (13 of the 20 wealthiest suburban towns are now ringed around the Imperial City. In 1980, only 3 were.)

10. New York City now has among the lowest military enlistment rates in the nation.
As we think of moving forward, and how little we have accomplished since about 2003 in the struggle with radical Islam - perhaps our time can be better spent with less watching singing cops and more 9/11 Mournathons. And more in understanding and dealing with the dangerous threats globalism, energy shortages, unsustainability of America's present entitlement path, environmental concerns, and the struggle with radical Islamists and mainstream Islam are demanding America face.
Our struggle with Islam is one of ideology, of backlash against US policies that adversely affect Muslims, of Islam being a religion of conquest that refuses to assimilate with others enjoying equal status. We need to do a far better job looking ahead and not wait for the 9/11 to happen or the Wall Street Meltdown to occur, or Medicare to collapse when the Chinese bankers finally don't show up to take our IOUs.

Is it really in our national interest to outsource our factories, high technology, our supply of scientists and doctors?

Is it really in our national interest to support Israel and it's new Settlements "no matter what!" - if it seriously damages America in the eyes of every other nation?

Does it make sense that we refuse to treat our dependence on foreign oil as anything less than a potential strategic and fiscal catastrophy for us and get ourselves less dependent - by conservation, drilling, switch of infrastructure off foreign oil as much as possible?

Robert Cook said...

David said:

"...so Obama is a money grubbing, power mad, oil sucking imperialist too? Just another American leader who loves to play with real soldiers and planes instead of toys? Well then the rest of the world really is fucked, isn't it. Damn you are cynical Robert."

Yes, to your question about Obama, and to your conclusion about the implications for the rest of the world, and no, not cynical...just paying attention.

Chickenlittle said...

(Quoting me): "If a foreign nation attacked America, would Americans who eluded capture and who carried out attacks against the occupying forces be terrorists or freedom fighters? Would those who cooperated with the occupying force be "good" "law-abiding" citizens or collaborationists?

relativistic much?

You stand for nothing."


Where's the relativism? It's an exact equivalency. I notice you didn't answer the question.

I stand for, among other things, the rule of law; for hewing to the Constitution and our Bill of Rights; for the idea that no person is above the law; that torture is never justified; and for prosecuting lawbreakers wherever or whoever they are...especially criminals who wield great power or wealth, who have preyed on our trust and who therefore harm thousands or millions of people.

Robert Cook said...

"So, like Joe WIlson, you believe Obama is a liar."

He's certainly a liar in his justifications for our continuing wars abroad, and almost certainly about many other things as well. About the particular thing Joe Wilson was wetting his pants about? I don't know. I, for one, think we should have universal health care, which Obama has no intention of trying to achieve, so he's merely perpetuating the problem anyway, and I don't think "illegal aliens" is a real problem, but an eruption of the xenophobic hatreds and fears of the right wing...a chimera of their chaotic id, if you will.

"...if we know all those people are innocent, why hasn't Obama let them go?"

If you hadn't noticed, many of them have been let go, most or all of them by the Bush administration. As for those left in detention, I don't know. It's likely at some of them--beyond the few high visibility captives we know about such as KSM--actually are operatives of Al Qaeda or other Islamic terrorist organizations; even if they are not, it wouldn't behoove the U.S. to release all the detainees in indefinite detention. It would kind of let the cat out of the bag that we held many men unjustly and under long and terrible conditions with little or no evidence to warrant their captivity. Certainly, that the Obama administration is preparing to release their own proposed language justifying indefinite detentions, and will attempt to have such practice made into law, should disgust us all.

chickenlittle said...

@RC:
One could apply your moral relativism to any war or conflict: you simply cannot justify invasion on any grounds.

Were the soldiers and citizens who fought back against American invasion in Afganistan freedom fighters? How about occupied France, or Germany itself?

To me you represent a complacent isolationist. Idealistic and stupid at the same time.

Maguro said...

So not even The Lightworker can measure up to Robert Cook's lofty moral standards?

I guess there's no hope whatsoever for the rest of us.

Just Lurking said...

"Certainly, that the Obama administration is preparing to release their own proposed language justifying indefinite detentions, and will attempt to have such practice made into law, should disgust us all."

Well, you're consistent. I'll give you that.

If you want to convince yourself that Obama and Bush are part of a conspiracy to round up Afghani farmers and hold them indefinitely, then I leave you to it sir.

Frodo Potter said...

Amen to all of those who have taken the time to honor Rick Rescorla. I hope I can become just half the man that Rick Rescorla was.

Let’s also not forget Google and Bing and their respective attitudes towards this day. I urge everyone to take a quick peak before midnight. That should help you decide which search engine you want to use.

Robert Cook said...

"...you simply cannot justify invasion on any grounds."

Well, using the Nuremberg standard, "invasion" of one country by another--aggressive war--is by definition a war crime, so while I can't say there would be absolutely no circumstance where I could support invasion of a country, the circumstances would have to be uniquely compelling and unusual.

"Were the soldiers and citizens who fought back against American invasion in Afganistan freedom fighters?"

Do you mean Afghanistan soldiers and citizens fighting against American invasion of their own country? From their point of view, of course! Should they have welcomed an invasion of their country? If you recall, Ronald Reagan called the Afghan Mujahideen, when they were fighting the invading Soviets,the "moral equivalent of our founding fathers." How easily "moral equivalent of our founding fathers" become dirty terrorists, eh? I guess it depends on who has a dog in the fight, or maybe, which dog one is betting on.

"How about occupied France, or Germany itself?"

This is phrased badly; I don't know what you mean. I'm sure soldiers in the German army were, in general, just as certain of the correctness and virtue of their cause as our soldiers are of ours. Do you think German soldiers saw themselves as engaged in an evil enterprise?

Penny said...

How could any of us know what the right answers are? Sure, we have our opinions, but none of us has the weight of responsibility for national security on our shoulders.

I've been meaning to post a comment here all day, but I have a very difficult time of it each 9/11 since THE 9/11. This is what I have been meaning to say all day.

THANK YOU, to all past Presidents, and to our current President, and to all future Presidents of the United States. You've agreed to a task whose burden none can begin to imagine, and so few care to even TRY to imagine.

Bless you, and all of mankind. Doing the best we can.

Deana said...

I still remember how brilliantly blue the sky was that day in D.C.

And I can't get the people out of my mind who died that day. Or their families.

I hope they know not everyone forgot.

Shanna said...

That the "Sacred Site" is now 8 years on still "The Hole"/"The Pit" and nicknamed such is a National Disgrace. A symbol that America has lost the ability to make things work anymore.

Just wanted to say to Cedaford that the Pentagon, by contrast, was rebuilt really, really fast.

Irene said...

We just finished watching the History Channel broadcast. Peace to all the souls lost and renewed sorrow for all their families.

chickenlittle said...

Don't evade my question Cook: Were the soldiers and citizens of occupied France and Germany who fought against US invaders freedom fighters?

veni vidi vici said...

"After real wars, major wars, where 100s of thousands or millions were killed whole destroyed cities were rebuilt in 5 years. Even ones that were flattened by nuclear bombs. That the "Sacred Site" is now 8 years on still "The Hole"/"The Pit" and nicknamed such is a National Disgrace. A symbol that America has lost the ability to make things work anymore. And simply wishes to wallow in endless Victimhood."

I find this a regrettably agreeable statement.

By the way, a couple of words for the speed of the Pentagon's rebuild: (a) war going on; (b) Don Rumsfeld. 'nuff said.


wv: "cavine" -- a dog in a cave.

veni vidi vici said...

Here's what I commemorate 9/11 with. It's a challenge to listen to all the way through, but is the real deal. No joke. "Why we fight" and all that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYZqQWfGIJg

Penny said...

"Just wanted to say to Cedarford that the Pentagon, by contrast, was rebuilt really, really fast."

Good, maybe (?) and as it should have been, maybe (?)

I was never as sure that should be the case for the Twin Towers.

In retrospect, I'm not even sure that we should have done anything beyond clearing the space of man-made materials, if that?

Yes, it would be an ugly picture, as is man's unending capacity for inhumanity to others not exactly like them.

Rebuilding taller is tantamount to a "fuck YOU!"

Beautifying is no different than rewriting the history that we only WISH we could erase from our collective memories.

Let time, and nature, tell the story on those NYC blocks.

We are here...and then we are, all of us, gone.

Most assume, one at a time, as our time comes, but there are some of us who would have us all go together. ALL gone, and ALL in the name of our "cause", or our "greater good", or our "right thinking".

I always thought of myself as having a gentle soul, but not all that long ago, I was one of those people who could accept that we might all be LITERALLY gone in the name of some greater "good", or being "right".

In that particular dream, I was a patriot...a freedom fighter... and always right.

Now? I'm waking up.

chickenlittle said...

If a foreign nation attacked America, would Americans who eluded capture and who carried out attacks against the occupying forces be terrorists or freedom fighters?

They would be freedom fighters.

Would those who cooperated with the occupying [occupying the US] force be "good" "law-abiding" citizens or collaborationists?

They may be both but they would also be would be traitors

Now answer my question without weasel-like elaboration Robert Cook:
Were the soldiers and citizens of occupied France and Germany who fought against US invaders freedom fighters?

Penny said...

Hi, chickelit,

I have no clue, but would it "kill" you metaphorically to sit around the campfire with Cookie?

Of course not.

I'll hold your hand if he makes you twitch.

Try to remember that Cookie is willing to "step out and speak up" with no support from the locals here at Althouse.

Deb said...

This thread is probably dead but a facebook friend posted about 9/11 yesterday, saying she was also, on 9/11, "remembering the Bali bombings, Pearl Harbor, and the attack on Fort Sumter." I regard that as a way to diminish the importance and gravity of the events of 9/11. They are unique.

Robert Cook said...

"Don't evade my question Cook: Were the soldiers and citizens of occupied France and Germany who fought against US invaders freedom fighters?"

Your question is still phrased badly, CL. Do you mean the GERMAN citizens and soldiers? Do you mean French citizens and soldier? Who do you mean?

No matter, I'll wing it; as I said already, I'm sure the German soldiers--and I'll add, most German citizes, as here in America--believed they were on the right side of the fight, believed their cause was just and virtuous. Most of them believed they were fighting for their country's self-defense and freedom.

"Occupied France?" I don't know if any Frenchmen fought against America troops. The French were an occupied country, under the heel of the Germans. I don't know enough about what went on to form an opinion.

It strikes me suddenly that perhaps you mean "occupiend Germany and France" after the war was over.

To the degree there was a German resistance in post-war Germany, I'm sure they felt they were freedom fighters, fighting against a conquering occupying force. However, I believe there was very little such activity in post-war Germany.

As for France, well, when the war was over it was liberated, no longer occupied, and so your question does not apply.

Robert Cook said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Cook said...

I see you answered my question, Chicken Little. So now you're putting yourself in the position, vis a vis our imagined occupying enemy force, of supporting terrorism against their forces. How could you be so evil? Why can't you recognize their benevolent aims, their rightful place in our country?

In short, throwing around loaded terms like "terrorist" and "terrorism" serves more to muddy perception than to clarify it. This is intentional. We are exhorted to hate the "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan who do violence to our forces there and impede our victory. We are influenced through language to perceive them as "evil" and we are encouraged to have a reflexive repugnance of them, a repugnance that will drive our support of our war against them. Yet, turned around, they view us as the evil ones, invading their lands and interfering with their internal cultural and political behavior.

Whose cause here is righteous? Who are the terrorists? How can they not rightly view our drone bombings of wedding parties and other civilian targets as terrorist murders? Why would they not feel compelled to resist us? By your own admission, they would be traitors to cooperate with us. Are men we have captured there who were actually fighting against us (as opposed to those who weren't but who were taken captive anyway) therefore "terrorists" whom we must (and are justified to)hold forever without charge or hope of release, or are they victims of injustice at the hands of a powerful invading and occupying enemy force? How are we not as much in the wrong here as were the Soviets, against whom we encouraged and championed the Afghans in their violent resistance?

JAL said...

most German citizes, as here in America--believed they were on the right side of the fight, believed their cause was just and virtuous.

heh. Our German friends (bred, born, and residing in Bavaria)are interesting. He was born on September 1, 1939. His parents changed his birthday to August 31m 1939.

Guess they weren't too proud.

chickenlittle said...

Couldn't do it eh Cookie?
Coward.

You are nothing but a polemist, hiding inside the verb, afraid to be either the subject or object of any action IRL.

You sir, are a waste of time.

Robert Cook said...

"Couldn't do it eh Cookie?
Coward.

You are nothing but a polemist, hiding inside the verb, afraid to be either the subject or object of any action IRL.

You sir, are a waste of time."


Once again, CL, you post in bad faith: you put words together, one after another in the semblance of a coherent statement, and yet, one struggles in vain to understand just what you're going on about. If you don't wish to clarify, or if you prefer not to respond to my comments, I must assume you have no response to make.

chickenlittle said...

I must assume you have no response to make.

"Assume" what you like, but you know what they say about that verb.

Nichevo said...

CL, not that I want to defend the crazy man, but perhaps you could explain yourself more fully? I myself admit I'm not wholly sure what you're driving at.

RC, are you really too freaking clever to be on your own freaking side? I don't really care - not that I don't know - what the Japs or the Nazis thought about their causes. We expended enough steel and high explosive to change their minds and worry more about what we wanted than what they wanted. That's what war is. If they had more and better then we'd all be speaking German and my grandparents would be soap.

What makes you think - I ask to know - what makes you think you're so freaking clever? Or well-educated? How do you come to be this Keeper Of Odd Knowledge?

You who are so squeamish about a little hardball with these guys who would do you and everybody you love in ways Cthulhu would approve, do you know what happened in the Indian Wars? On both sides?

This country was born in blood. Like every other country. Grok it or, I guess, defect to your notional Utopia and spare us your smarmy clack!

Robert Cook said...

Nichevo:

What do you mean by "my own freaking side?" Do you think I should support our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq merely because they're being conducted by my country? These wars serve no purpose beneficial to the people of America and have no defined goals; we started these wars without cause; we have killed or caused to be killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million, innocent human beings; many others have been maimed and rendered homeless, have had their families destroyed; we squander the public treasure at a ruinous rate, and we destroy our own respect for and adherence to the rule of law. We allow propaganda to convince us of our virtue even as we visit murder and terror upon people just like you and me.

We are the bad guys here.

Robert Cook said...

Oh, and how could I forget, we have become a nation of torturers, convinced of our innate goodness and of the integrity of our cause even as we are reduced to barbarism. So convinced are we of our virtue that we can only speak of our despicable acts using the bloodless euphemism "enhanced interrogation," the same term used by the Germans in WWII to describe their interrogation techniques, which included some that we have used.

amba said...

That kind of weather -- too perfect! -- still creeps me out.

Nichevo said...

What do you mean by "my own freaking side?"

Of course you are confused - I doubt you have one. You are currently free-riding on the American side, if you were wondering.

Do you think I should support our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq merely

well not merely

because they're being conducted by my country?

Um, YES!

So convinced are we of our virtue that we can only speak

Tom Hagen turned away. “I’ll tell you one thing you didn’t learn from him: talking the way you’re talking now. There are things that have to be done and you do them and you never talk about them. You don’t try to justify them. They can’t be justified. You just do them. Then you forget it.”


TW: backsly. That's you, all right.

Nichevo said...

These wars serve no purpose beneficial to the people of America and have no defined goals; we started these wars without cause; we have killed or caused to be killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million, innocent human beings; many others have been maimed and rendered homeless, have had their families destroyed; we squander the public treasure at a ruinous rate, and we destroy our own respect for and adherence to the rule of law. We allow propaganda to convince us of our virtue even as we visit murder and terror upon people just like you and me.

Oh, blah, blah, blah.

We are the bad guys here.

Then why don't you go over to the side of good?

TW: conspar. Again, Turing is thinking of you!

Robert Cook said...

"Then why don't you go over to the side of good?"

I'd rather my country go back to the rule of law, and that American perpetrators of war crimes and torture be prosecuted and punished. Then we would be on the side of the good.

Nichevo said...

Nah, what's you'd rather do is flap your gums.

TW: saint

LOL