September 21, 2009

"The Hofstra University gang rape that wasn't."

Emily Bazelon writes:
Let's agree that something disturbing happened to that 18-year-old woman at Hofstra. Something she feels awful about. Any good, right-thinking feminist, and any good girlfriend, would encourage her to talk to a counselor about her story. The problem is that by going to the police and then recanting, she fit into a new story that backfires on her and on feminism in an ugly way. She becomes the false accuser, and the boys, like the Duke boys, become the victims. In these moments of recantation, all we can talk about is how wrong she was. And then we lose the conversation that happens at a level beneath the law: about how these late-night moments in a random bathroom that everyone regrets can stop before they start. I'm not sure how you do that. But I wish this was where we'd go, now that we know that whatever happened to this girl, it wasn't the legal definition of rape.
Most of the terrible things people do to each other are not crimes. And we also do a lot of terrible — and often sexual — things to ourselves. I think, on the whole, women would be better off if they stepped up to the adult work of taking responsibility for themselves. The men in this incident were awful too, but ladies, say no to awful men. Don't let men define what good sex is. And certainly don't let them act out their idea of good sex and then decide that you wanted something nicer.

413 comments:

1 – 200 of 413   Newer›   Newest»
Quayle said...

I'm not sure how you do that. But I wish this was where we'd go, now that we know that whatever happened to this girl, it wasn't the legal definition of rape.

Not sure how to do it? How about teaching chastity and virtue when girls are young, and condemning pornography and its dehumanizing effect without hesitation.

I know - that's too old fashioned. That can't be the answer.

At least: that isn't the answer we want.

We want to stoke great bonfires but reserve the right to act shocked and indignant when someone, usually a woman, gets burned.

ironrailsironweights said...

I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like for the fifth out of the five guys who nailed her one after another. Probably like shoving a hot dog into a jar of mayonnaise.

Peter

chuck b. said...

People are children now into their late 20s.

blake said...

How 'bout we start by making the accusation of a crime as serious a crime as the crime itself.

Someone who falsely cries rape should be subject to the penalties for rape.

Just for starters.

wv: hemones

hemones, shemones, hormones....

traditionalguy said...

I just want to know that the Carbon Footprints of these naked apes were not larger than the Climate Crisis Panel has established for people of her age.If she got too hot, then it is a crime against World Climate Rules.

John Lynch said...

It seems to me that if you stay away from alcohol and drugs in college this doesn't happen.

Not to excuse anyone, but every story like this seems to include drunkenness and/or other drugs.

Women would be well advised to simply avoid parties where everyone is under the influence. Since men go where the women are, it seems to me that it would work.

rhhardin said...

Respectability, for a woman, comes from how good a deal she can make.

This is why ``You're not going out like that, are you?'' comes up later. She wants to show the guy off to her friends.

Bathroom sex with five guys sounds like a pretty bad deal, unless they're the Beatles.

The woman was doing reputation control in this case.

Pogo said...

What kind of men would do this?
What kind of women?
What fresh hellions are these?

Lyle said...

Bazelon omitted an important case that happened when I was an undergrad. The Brown University date-rape case where a female student made all the moves and performed oral sex on a fellow guy student she had brought back to her room. The next day she decided she was raped, yet admitted the guy did nothing and the she instigated and performed on him. They guy was brought up on rape charges by the university displinary whatever and it forced male faculty and women faculty to go off on one another about what rape is. What was mind blowing was how many women actually thought that the guy was responsible for saying no, please stop going down on me because you are drunk and having sex with a drunk woman is ipso facto rape.

Oligonicella said...

And certainly don't let them act out their idea of good sex and then decide that you wanted something nicer.

Because, of course, no woman plays any self-degradation games, right?

Revenant said...

I like how Bazelon calls refers to the accuser anonymously, as "an 18-year-old woman". Apparently the injunction against identifying accusers in rape cases applies even when the accusations are known to be fake. Her name is Danmell Ndonye.

So if by any chance you're a future employer or boyfriend and you're reading this after Googling to see what there is on her -- well, Ms. Ndonye had consensual sex with a whole bunch of men all at once, then tried to frame them for rape. She was caught only because one of her victims was lucky enough to have videotaped the incident. So if you're thinking about employing or, heaven forbid, DATING this amoral slut, I'd recommend you stay far away from her.

Anyway, enough about the "disturbing" thing that "happened" to Danmell Ndonye. Nothing that was "done" to her even deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence as five false accusations of rape. If there was any justice in the world she'd rot in jail for the rest of her life.

And let me say that I'm very disappointed that Althouse is playing the "the men were awful too" card. That's like referring to a real case of rape by saying "yes, but the girl was dressed provocatively".

Lance said...

And let me say that I'm very disappointed that Althouse is playing the "the men were awful too" card. That's like referring to a real case of rape by saying "yes, but the girl was dressed provocatively".



Consent makes it legal, but it doesn't make it any less awful.

Joe said...

Let's agree that something disturbing happened to that 18-year-old woman at Hofstra.

Absolutely not. For all we know it was hot as hell and that's why it embarrassed her.

The reality is that an astonishing number of people really get off on the most bizarre, and even grotesque, sexual acts. (Conversely, there are millions of people who actually enjoy sitting in church being lectured about what sinners they are. Go figure.)

David said...

Wow. It's hard to know where to start.

I will start with an assumption--that this girl consented to sex with each and every of these five boys (I refuse to call them men) one after another after another. And that the boys, none of them, ever threatened her by word or gesture.

The boys are extraordinarily lucky that she decided that in good conscience she could not continue to claim rape. The rape claim is more than plausible. Five males. One female. Late at night. The intimidation factor had to be huge, especially after the first one or two. Suppose she had decided to say no to the third, or fourth, or fifth? How much (or how little) force or threat would it have taken to make her comply?

There is no doubt in my mind that the girl is more honorable that any of the boys. She made an awful choice--five awful choices--but owned up to them when she very plausibly could have maintained the rape charge to assuage her own self and public image. I think she showed quite a bit of courage.

As for Amy Bazelon saying that this girl betrayed feminism by going to the police and then recanting? That is totally disgusting. This is about a terrible experience of an individual female. The impact on feminism should be totally irrelevant, if you care about the girl.

Personally, I think this girl--I will now call her a young woman--showed quite a bit of courage and character to recant.

There was, in fact, quite a lot of sex on campus in the early to mid 60's when I was in college. But the casual hookup was not the vogue. Nor were the coed dorms and the constant sexualization of campus life and politicization of sex. Sex was still slightly naughty, which did give rise to some caution.

MnMark said...

Let's agree that something disturbing happened to that 18-year-old woman at Hofstra. Something she feels awful about.

I don't agree to that at all. From what I read, the woman had consensual sex with five men in her freshman dorm bathroom after a wild frat party. She went back to her bedroom where her boyfriend was waiting and asked where she'd been. He said she looked like she'd just had wild sex. When he confronted her she said she'd been raped. He said we have to report this. She said no, that's ok. Only when he was incredulous that she would be ok with being raped did she decide to call the police.

Bluntly, this slut had what by all appearances was a consensual gang bang. I don't think she felt the LEAST BIT bad about it until her boyfriend caught her. She may have been doing this sort of thing for years. So let's not pretend there was anything she regretted or that she found disturbing about it.

It's only disturbing to the rest of us who wonder what our college freshman daughters are stumbling across in the bathrooms of their dormitories. Is this really what college has become? Is this really what all the affirmative action to get blacks into college was for?

A Lawyer Mom's Musings said...

This story brings to mind Anita Shreve's "Testimony." It's well worth reading. In that fictional story, though, the video was damning rather than exonerating.

The Drill SGT said...

I agree weth Rev on this one. She ought to be charged. The men, shunned as well, but they are just a$$holes, not criminals.

I bet there is a lot more use of cell phones to get consent statements in "hook up" situations than there was before.

blake said...

David,

Maybe you should start by realizing that the girl only copped to the consensuality of the event when a video was produced showing that her rape story was bogus.

You and I have different definitions of bravery.

bagoh20 said...

I'm sorry, but this is a breakdown primarily with female standards. The men while gross are not much different than 50 years ago, but the number of women who would allow themselves to get in that situation has gone up exponentially.

The things young and even older women (see cougars) will do today for sex has changed much more than for men. Welcome to equality ladies. You're now equally disgusting.

knox said...

It is beyond belief that any of them would want to have sex in a public bathroom in a dorm. Ground Zero for any and all things gross.

Revenant said...

The boys are extraordinarily lucky that she decided that in good conscience she could not continue to claim rape. The rape claim is more than plausible.

The whole thing was videotaped, shit for brains. That's why she "recanted". Not out of conscience, but in a bid to avoid being prosecuted herself.

knox said...

blake, I agree.

David, I didn't get your take on this at all. It's hardly "brave" to recant a false accusation.

William said...

She did something very stupid, and the stupidity cascaded. That said, I would give her a pass. The guys too. Every guy should be aware that a woman who works out her sexuality with five strangers in a bathroom has some deep problems and should be avoided.

Pogo said...

In college, the veneer of civilization is thinner than a condom, and less frequently used.

Revenant said...

Consent makes it legal, but it doesn't make it any less awful.

Right. And the fact that a woman was raped by a man turned on by her outfit doesn't change the fact that the outfit was provocative. That doesn't mean it is appropriate to focus on how the victim was dressed.

There is NO form of consensual sex that in any way excuses a false accusation of rape. Absolutely none at all. So I don't give a shit if you think they were "awful". A lot of rape victims really ARE loose women -- does that make it ok to rape them?

Of course not. Stop blaming victims. Put the blame on the criminals -- the rapists and the false accusers, not the rape victims and the falsely accused.

jr565 said...

rhhardin wrote:
"Bathroom sex with five guys sounds like a pretty bad deal, unless they're the Beatles."
Who's the fifth beatle? Pete Best, George martin? Stuart Sutcliffe? Or did one of the Beatles (probably Ringo) or maybe it was one of the guys from Hermans Hermits who was hanging out with the Beatles one lucky day?

traditionalguy said...

So if it wasn't the perfectly clean and neat bathroom that these men used to seduce this trusting young lady, how did they get her to do this? Was it yheir overpowering after shave? I suspect that she had never done more than three men at once before, and the curiosity got the better of her.

blake said...

knox,

And I agree with your dorm bathroom point.

But clearly, standards were non-existent.

bagoh20 said...

"It is beyond belief that any of them would want to have sex in a public bathroom in a dorm."

I don't understand her wanting to, but man have always been willing to have sex wherever they could. Thus the "glory hole" has no female corollary.

bagoh20 said...

If you strip away our socialization that gives this all kinds of negative attributes, it's not really very surprising that a group of primates would do this. Then fling some poo.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

Small point - it's my understanding that only a small portion of the event was actually taped. So they did need her to recant.

David said...

Well, a good prosecutor could probably make mincemeat of the videotape. (Though we can't know unless we see it, which I do not want to do.)

Did she recant because there was a tape? We don't know, but let's assume that was true. She still could have gone the other way, and would have found piles of supporters, tape or no tape.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. I have three daughters, two stepdaughters, two granddaughters. I confess to a protective bias towards the girl, and to a nagging question of whether there wasn't something they did, other than just get erections, to cause this girl to act as she did.

I confess that it's possible that she was just without any moral code or without any instinct of self protection. I suppose I just don't want to believe that.

Frodo Potter said...

Sorry David, I’ve got to pile on. I’m with Rev, The Drill SGT., Blake, and some of the others. This woman should be charged. Perhaps for a first offense, a suspended sentence or probation would be in order.

David, if you are the same commenter I am thinking of, you usually make a *lot* of sense, and I generally find myself agreeing with you. But dude, this time you are off base.

MadisonMan said...

The lady who cleaned our bathroom at U -- I think her name was Ginny? -- did a most excellent job. I doubt anyone here would mind at all getting it on there, especially if they were a little toasted on Alcohol.

MnMark: at my U there were plenty of -- let's call them sluts -- who weren't black at all. Sexual looseness knows no color. Your last paragraph is really bad. Yet I agree with your 2nd paragraph almost completely.

Grim said...

I am very confused by people thinking the men are assholes who deserve part of the blame? People keep putting all of the responsibility that comes with sex on men and none on the women. This is down right sexist.

Consensual sex happened, the women decided to do something would have screwed up these guys lives badly just because she did not want to admit she is a slut to her boyfriend.

If that's not downright evil, I don't know what is.

Revenant said...

I don't understand her wanting to, but man have always been willing to have sex wherever they could. Thus the "glory hole" has no female corollary.

Plus, we don't know what the original count was of guys invited to this. Start out with a pool of drunk frat guys. Who wants a blowjob from a woman? Most of them. But there will be other guys there. They'll be getting one too. And its in a bathroom. In a dorm. As you add more conditions, the pool of interested guys shrinks.

But keep in mind we're talking about a bunch of guys in their late teens. Most of them would probably bone a pork roast if it was wearing a enough makeup.

Revenant said...

Well, a good prosecutor could probably make mincemeat of the videotape. (Though we can't know unless we see it, which I do not want to do.)

Then you're talking out of your ass when you say a good prosecutor could probably make mincemeat out of it. Look at the facts: the woman was not raped, the incident was videotaped, and the cops dropped all the charges. From this you deduce that clearly the evidence points to rape. Seriously, now, did your mother have any children who lived?

Eric said...

Someone who falsely cries rape should be subject to the penalties for rape.

I think so. Let's remember that in an effort to save a relationship with her boyfriend this woman was willing to ruin the lives of five people. As violent offenders they would have spend a long time in jail and would never have been free of the consequences of her perfidy.

We had a very similar case in Southern California a couple years back. I'm starting to wonder how many guys are sitting in jail for having consensual sex. I guess you should always get a video.

The Drill SGT said...

I don't understand her wanting to, but man have always been willing to have sex wherever they could.

You obviously didn't see the same Army VD films with the color shots of stage 3 Syphilis and some other indescribable nastinesses.

I was and am careful about my equipment.

Pogo said...

"And the Earth spins round
While the people fall down
And the world stands still
Not a sound, not a sound
There is love, there is love
To be found
In the worst way, in the worst way
In the worst way
"

Lisa Germano
From a Shell

The Drill SGT said...

We had a very similar case in Southern California a couple years back.

The soccer player on the beach?

David said...

Frodo--You are quite the detective, aren't you?

Turning to your (and others') comment, I guess my language was over the top but I still think the girl should get some credit for turning around the story.

I also retract my swipe at Amy Bazelon. I read her entire piece a moment ago, not just the quote Althouse used. I should have read it all in the first place. It actually makes quite a bit of sense.

David said...

Revnant, as Laura pointed out, the tape was only of part of the incident. And if it's like most phone videos you probably have a difficult time figuring out what was going on.

bagoh20 said...

Don't flame me, I'm just asking: Ladies would you rather be raped or wrongly convicted of rape and sent to prison for 20 years? Of course, you would then be raped there, but forget that part.

There is no need to ask men the same question. We are very different creatures.

Brian O'Connell said...

It might be better not to prosecute women in her situation. Think about it: if a woman falsely accused you, you'd want her to have a relatively easy path to recanting- at this early stage in the game anyway. If she knew that that she'd be criminally charged with the false accusation as soon as she recanted, she'd be more likely to stick with her original story.

At some point you'd need to draw the line however. And there's always the civil suit!

The Drill SGT said...

David said...
Revnant, as Laura pointed out, the tape was only of part of the incident. And if it's like most phone videos you probably have a difficult time figuring out what was going on.


a quote from a news story: "It looks more like a porn movie," Victor Daly-Rivera said. "It showed just the opposite of what the allegations were. There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

Revenant said...

You obviously didn't see the same Army VD films with the color shots of stage 3 Syphilis and some other indescribable nastinesses. I was and am careful about my equipment.

Good point, Drill Sgt. But stop to consider what it means about the average 18 or 19-year-old guy's sexual judgment that the Army actually had to create those films for their recruits. :)

former law student said...

The conceptual hurdle is accepting that a woman could freely choose to have sex with five men in a row. But certified feminists have assured me this is possible.

Another possibility: In a campus hangout once, I saw an acquaintance of mine get drunk out of her mind on two drinks. The couple she was with assured me they would take her home. Which they did, to his home. She woke up on a couch. In a half-stupor, she heard the couple banging in the other room. She called one of her friends, who took her to an emergency room.

While she had not been assaulted, she had been roofied. She figured she had been tabbed to be part of a threesome.

The Drill SGT said...

But stop to consider what it means about the average 18 or 19-year-old guy's sexual judgment that the Army actually had to create those films for their recruits. :)

A picture with a Doc to answer questions is worth a thousand words by the Chaplain.

Revenant said...

If she knew that that she'd be criminally charged with the false accusation as soon as she recanted, she'd be more likely to stick with her original story.

Certainly people will be less likely to recant if false accusations are vigorously prosecuted. But they will also be a lot less likely to make phony accusations in the first place, don't you think?

Eric said...

The soccer player on the beach?

Nope. This one. The details are amazingly similar. The six men involved could have received life sentences - she ended up spending only 90 days in jail and another nine months on supervised release.

Eric said...

You obviously didn't see the same Army VD films with the color shots of stage 3 Syphilis and some other indescribable nastinesses.

Yes, I understand the area immediately surrounding army bases is famous for lacking houses of ill repute :)

Anthony said...

"Don't let men define what good sex is. And certainly don't let them act out their idea of good sex and then decide that you wanted something nicer."

Do not listen to her! She's. . um. . .racist. Or something.

The Drill SGT said...

What can I say? They stopped showing the movie.

Brian O'Connell said...

Revenant: Possibly. But look at the circumstances of this case. She probably felt "compelled" by the boyfriend and by the false story she told him to go along with the call to the police. Probably a lot of those calls are made in a highly emotional state. Later, when presumably some measure of rationality has returned, it might be worth it to the accused that the accuser has an easy out.

Note that I'm only arguing this from the interests of the accused. Better free than fair?

The Drill SGT said...

Google is a terrible thing for Tamara Anne Moonier and Danmell Ndonye

We always google potential hires along with credit checks.

on a similiar note, You'd be surprised at the stupidity of some young women in picking tatoo designs and public skin to display them on.

There is no EEO law to protect tatoo'd women.

Gross lack of Judgement is the catchall phrase for the tatoo's

David said...

"There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

Oh, ok, because she was not tied up, bruised or screaming it was not rape?

As I said in my first post, I assume as a fact that she consented. I do so because she has stopped maintaining that she did not consent.

But the videotape alone could not have made her change her story, if it is as reported. It does not show the whole incident. It can not show what is happening off camera. It does not necessarily pick up everything that is said.

The girl lied for reasons we can speculate on but not know. Then she changed her mind and told the truth.

bagoh20 said...

I've always found rape especially repugnant, but the behavior of these and many other women today is making it harder to feel that it's some especially heinous act when virtually the same thing is commonly enjoyed. I can't think of many horrible crimes that are also enjoyed by many.

I Read the Tamara Anne Moonier story and think, all parties were having a hell of a good time there until someone lied about what happened.

Revenant said...

Note that I'm only arguing this from the interests of the accused. Better free than fair?

It seems to me that under your logic we ought to stop prosecuting burglars. After all, the fact that we prosecute burglars makes it more likely that they will kill any witnesses. If we let burglars go, they'd have no reason to hurt anyone.

And so it goes with any crime.

bagoh20 said...

We would get a lot more confessions if there were no penalties for crime.

PatHMV said...

David, of course it's possible to commit rape without tying the woman up. But when the woman alleging rape tells police she was tied up with rope, and the video shows no rope and no type of binding at all, then yes, that's pretty definitive that she's just lying. When she claims that she pleaded with each newcomer for help and the tape shows that she didn't actually do that, then that's pretty definitive evidence that she's lying. When she tells the cops she was screaming the whole time, and the tape shows no screaming by her, then again, that's pretty definitive that she's lying.

She is undoubtedly a very troubled, disturbed woman, and I hope she gets the psychiatric help she clearly needs. But she was lying, and she accused 5 innocent men with one of the worst crimes there is, just to avoid telling her boyfriend the truth about what she had just done.

Jason said...

Consent makes it legal, but it doesn't make it any less awful.

WTF????

Of COURSE it does, dumbass!!!!

Edgehopper said...

This needs to be clear, so even though Mdmark and Grim both pointed it out already:

There is no sign that this was a traumatic experience for Miss Ndonye.

The articles in all the newspapers have made it very clear: She lied about rape to keep her boyfriend from dumping her, and kept up the story all the way to the police because he was enough of a nice guy/sucker to believe her and think it was his duty as a man to help her by reporting the crime.

This is not some confused woman who had sex while drunk and then felt bad about it the next morning. This is a slut who was willing to lie and send 4 innocent men to prison to keep her boyfriend. 4 consecutive sentences equivalent to that for rape should be the appropriate punishment.

I have no sympathy for her whatsoever, any more than I'd have sympathy for a man who lies about manslaughter to keep from getting caught.

PatHMV said...

Oh, and David, she only recanted after being told there was a video. In fact, police say her story began to unravel pretty quickly, due to internal inconsistencies. When they told her about the video, that was the "turning point," according to the district attorney.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

From the Boston Herald article:

"A cell-phone video. It was just five minutes and 58 seconds of grainy footage from a public men’s bathroom in a college dormitory, according to a defense attorney for one of the four men who was later charged. It did not show the entire incident, the attorneys acknowledge."

She could easily have claimed that what happened after was different from what the video showed.

I have no problem at all suggesting that women should not get drunk in situations where they are vulnerable. I don't see this as blaming the victim, it's just common sense to me. Ditto, men having sex with women they don't know in circumstances where they can be accused of rape. Does nobody pick up a dadgum newspaper, ever, and read it? Is exercising your right to be an abject fool more important than looking out for yourself?

Diamondhead said...

One of the guys (Stalin, I think) described his cousin, who filmed the encounter, as a guardian angel or somesuch. Sad state of affairs when your cousin films you having group sex with five other guys in a dorm bathroom. I've never understood the appeal of that type of scenario - I guess there's some sort of cameraderie. Lot of high fives, probably.

Jason said...

More from Ms. Bazelon:

We're also replaying the debate about whether to publish the names of women who make false accusations, after the names of the men have been splashed everywhere. (I'm erring on the side of privacy; there's a cogent argument in the other direction.)

Why in God's name would someone who calls themselves ANY kind of "journalist" would want to 'err on the side of privacy' in a case like this?

What kind of 'expectation of privacy' should someone on record as having falsely smeared the names of five other people in public reasonably have?

I swear, Bazelon seems like a nice young woman, but based on this and your other interactions with her, the poor girl just wasn't taught how to THINK!

The Drill SGT said...

One can hope that Danmell Ndonye is NOT a scholarship student.

I hope she has a rich father, the better to get her some help, and pay for 5 civil judgements. :)

former law student said...

I've never understood the appeal of that type of scenario - I guess there's some sort of cameraderie.

Step one on the Road to Gayness.

My rule has always been: one room one penis.

Cedarford said...

Revenent's 7:58 comments are very good, and I agree with his mentioning the false accuser's name. Just as no story about the Duke rape case when it was clear the whore was lying should avoid mentioning the fact that her name was Crystal Mangum.
Unless some concern exists that unless the privacy of the false accuser's name is not maintained by media convention...false accusers will be intimidated and not willing to step forth and make false accusations.

========================
David - The boys are extraordinarily lucky that she decided that in good conscience she could not continue to claim rape. The rape claim is more than plausible. Five males. One female. Late at night. The intimidation factor had to be huge, especially after the first one or two. Suppose she had decided to say no to the third, or fourth, or fifth? How much (or how little) force or threat would it have taken to make her comply?

There is no doubt in my mind that the girl is more honorable that any of the boys. She made an awful choice--five awful choices--but owned up to them when she very plausibly could have maintained the rape charge to assuage her own self and public image. I think she showed quite a bit of courage.


David, are you one of those fawning homosexuals who thinks straight men are beastly and all women moral saints???
The slut in this case, Danmell Ndonye, did not recant out of courage or what gay boys worshipping females consider their higher wisdom and morality...she recanted because the cops called her back in and showed her the cell phone video. Of her hootin' and hollerin' and suckin' and "begging the guys to stick it in her harder and faster because she wasn't done coming yet by a long way..."

Then she goes back to her boyfriend, acting like nothing happened, who notes she looks and reeks of a gang-bang...then she calls the cops and begins howlin' as loud as she did in the bathroom stall, but singin' a different tune.

In the "here's another excuse" told in the way of dry humor, Traditional guy notes she was obviously a victim...
"I suspect that she had never done more than three men at once before, and the curiosity got the better of her."

=================
The feminist lie that women never lie about sex, only evil penis-wielders do, is not born out by actual studies showing about 23-40% of initially reported rape is thought to be false and almost all of it ends with the woman recanting or "citing going ahead would be just too traumatic". The feminist claim that false rape accusations are extraordinarily rare because it is NEVER in the interest of women to "put themselves through the ORDEAL" of put themselves through prosecution of others for rape, so therefore the rape must have actually happened...is just like other feminist tripe and concocted statistics. Like the one about how Superbowl and seeing "violent athletes" provokes an orgy of domestic battery against 100,000s of thousands of "helpless women" each Superbowl.

IMO, false rape charges, police railroading, people trying to defraud insurance companies or claim false torts should face commensurate criminal penalties and financial damage as their victims were exposed to. And pay all lawyer's costs. Then some punitive damages on top of all that.

Lem said...

Does the proliferation of porn bare any blame?

At all?

former law student said...

Does the proliferation of porn bare any blame?

Frat boys were doing gangbangs back when porn viewing was limited to late night smokers, and to the occasional movie theater where the patrons kept their hats over their laps.

Diamondhead said...

People have been doing obscenely disgusting (at least in my view)things revolving around sex since...

David said...

"David, are you one of those fawning homosexuals who thinks straight men are beastly and all women moral saints???"

Oh, Cedarford, I love it when you talk like that. (Pant, pant.)

Mian said...

Unfortunately, sexual maturity arrives a good decade before common sense does.

Our kids become adults way too early and aren't able to handle it very well, I fear.

bagoh20 said...

"My rule has always been: one room one penis."

Still missing something.

Methadras said...

Hmmm... I wonder what Nifong thinks about this? Let's go ask him shall we?

former law student said...

Still missing something.

When I think about group sex, having more guys never enters my mind.

blake said...

Lem,

You could argue the other way to: Porn could have contributed to this being just another fun college experience everyone has! It was only the shame of outmoded moral standards that ruined the fun.

(I'm actually surprised I'm the first to say this. It seems I heard this argument all the time as a kid.)

Ignorance is Bliss said...

My rule has always been: one room one penis.

In college I often had to go with 'two rooms, one penis', but they were fairly small rooms.

daubiere said...

"When I think about group sex, having more guys never enters my mind.
"

thats why youre a boring fuck

Cedarford said...

Diamondhead said...
People have been doing obscenely disgusting (at least in my view)things revolving around sex since...



Reference the art panels of this "not exactly safe for work" 3,000 year-old ancient Egyptian papyrus.

http://www.geocities.com/zoser8/turin.html

Also known as the "love papyrus". Group sex, well-hung dwarfs, gods and humans screwing in various positions, humans and gods erotica by themselves, girl-girl, hemaphrodite sex, women impaling themselves on cone-shaped floor-mounted sex toys, a guy auto-fellating himself, girl getting a modern porn style "semen facial".

Revenant said...

I've never understood the appeal of that type of scenario - I guess there's some sort of cameraderie. Lot of high fives, probably.

I think you're missing the point. The other guys are what you put up with in order to get some. They aren't part of the fun, they're a necessary annoyance, like having to watch "Steel Magnolias" with your girlfriend or something. :)

Paddy O. said...

there are millions of people who actually enjoy sitting in church being lectured about what sinners they are.

This isn't at all true. While there might be a very small number of people who enjoy this, the great majority of people who still attend such churches don't enjoy it, but they feel they should, so they go anyhow and put up with it for as long as it lasts. Then talk to other people how great it is, because that what they feel they are supposed to do.

A whole lot of churches don't talk about sin at all really. Because people don't enjoy that, and have finally gotten to the point where just because they heard other people say how great it was doesn't mean it's actually great, and maybe there's something more substantive out there.

Ralph L said...

The other guys are what you put up with in order to get some
You don't think it's a little bit homoerotic? What about spit-roasting?

It would surprise me if she *hadn't* been molested in adolescence. No excuse, but it does explain such odd behavior for a young woman.

VW - fratwro !

Ralph L said...

Tamara was really stupid, since she knew there was a video proving her a liar.

VW choden - chum that's been in the water too long.

Chris said...

"She becomes the false accuser, and the boys, like the Duke boys, become the victims."

This is a disturbing way to put things. Like the default position is the girl is right and only later becomes the false accuser.

Revenant said...

You don't think it's a little bit homoerotic?

Well, it isn't something I'd expect homophobic guys to do, anyway. Or squeamish guys, for that matter.

peter hoh said...

Lem asked: Does the proliferation of porn bare any blame?

Didn't you hear, porn makes you gay.

peter hoh said...

Lem, while porn bares much, it can not bare blame.

fivewheels said...

There are so many things wrong in that piece. Bazelon desperately wants to convict the men in this case regardless of the evidence.

"Let's agree that something disturbing happened to that 18-year-old woman at Hofstra."

No, let's not. What happened "to" her was consensual and legal and, contrary to the impression you might get from the fainting spells here and elsewhere, not unheard of. The only disturbing thing is what she "did" afterward. Ditch the victimizing, exculpatory passive voice, Emily. It's a transparent rhetorical device.

"The problem is that by going to the police and then recanting, she fit into a new story that backfires on her and on feminism."

Oh, THAT's the problem? I thought maybe the four guys who got thrown in jail for two days for something they didn't do was the problem, but obviously not. Who cares about them? Feminism is the *real* victim.

"She becomes the false accuser, and the boys ... become the victims."

What? That's crazy! How can the boys be the victims?

You can see how much the concept bewilders her. And again, she uses language that diminishes Ndonye's role: "she becomes the false accuser," like it's a magic trick. No, she *is* a false accuser. As Chris pointed out, it's not some kind of reversal. This is what she is.

"In these moments of recantation, all we can talk about is how wrong she was."

Oh noes! Why can't we just keep talking about how the men are wrong?

"whatever happened to this girl, it wasn't the legal definition of rape."

Get it? Bazelon implies that it might as well have been rape, but they skated on the technicality that, you know, it was consensual. Too bad we can't throw them back in jail for that. If that's not her point, why include the words "the legal definition of"?

Repeat after me, Emily: The guys were the victims of a crime. The victims of a crime. That's all.

She wastes not one word on what "happened to" the true victims, only what "happened to" the criminal. Appalling.

Joe said...

I'm absolutely amazed at the suggestion that the woman was "troubled", "disturbed", a slut or even molested as a child. This is absurd--why couldn't the woman simply have been fulfilling a sexual fantasy out of choice?

And for all you guys writing; like you've never fantasized about having a threesome with two women (or two men for a few of you.) Even if you don't go through with it, what does that make you? Troubled? Disturbed? Molested? The male equivalent of a slut?

And how many of you were virgins when you got married (or settled down with a partner?) The hypocrisy here is absurd.

Eric said...

What happened "to" her was consensual and legal and, contrary to the impression you might get from the fainting spells here and elsewhere, not unheard of.

This reminds me of the Duke case and the chorus of people who weren't sure what it was but were sure the lacrosse players had done something wrong. Being, you know, white men and all.

Who would have thought feminism would devolve into this sort of shallow priggishness?

Chris said...

fivewheels pretty much nails it. EB's piece sounds really, really bad to my ears.

AllenS said...

I'm left wondering how long this story will stay in the news. If Danmell Ndonye had been white, probably a long time. However, the media will probably tire of it shortly. They will realize that they're walking on brown egg shells.

Diamondhead said...

"hey're a necessary annoyance, like having to watch "Steel Magnolias" with your girlfriend"

Haha, well it not be quite as bad as watching Steel Magnolias, come to think of it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Turning to your (and others') comment, I guess my language was over the top but I still think the girl should get some credit for turning around the story.

Help me out here David, girl consents to sex with a bunch of guys then falsely claims she was raped. Guys spend a couple nights in jail and only recants when confronted with video showing her having a grand old time.

And you want to give her credit?
You have some pretty fucked up notions of honor, bravery and giving credit where credit is due.

Anthony said...

My first reaction when reading about this case --

Who names their son Stalin?

jacksonianlawyer said...

We live in an era of no accountability; where nothing is ever the "fault" of one's self, but always to be the fault of some other entity. Kids have been taught that, no matter how they fail, they are still A-#1, lest their "self-esteem" be damaged. Thus, kids, once they become adults, have no idea to accept a given result as being the product of something they did (or failed to do); they want to continue be coddled, told it's not their fault and told they are still #1.

Nothing shocking here. Just another product of a leftist educational system.

Fred4Pres said...

Here is some advice:

Women: Multiple partners in public is a bad idea.

Men: Multiple partners in public is a bad idea.

bearbee said...

Hope the parents of all are proud and that the $30,000 annual tuition will earn rich returns.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"The problem is that by going to the police and then recanting, she fit into a new story that backfires on her and on feminism."

Oh, THAT's the problem? I thought maybe the four guys who got thrown in jail for two days for something they didn't do was the problem, but obviously not. Who cares about them? Feminism is the *real* victim.


You know that is the part of the article that just hit me like a brick. The problem is that feminism took a shot in the mouth, not the fact that 5 innocent guys were facing jail sentences because some babe offered them free nookie.

As for the 'awful' things the guys did, who said it's awful? Oh now we're going to moralize on what is acceptable sexual behavior? Last I heard all you needed was two sides to consent to the act and its all good.

Andrea said...

Well here's what hit me when I read the excerpt Ann posted:

"And then we lose the conversation that happens at a level beneath the law: about how these late-night moments in a random bathroom that everyone regrets can stop before they start."

Wait -- what? The only "moment" in a "random bathroom" I've had that I've ever regretted is when I threw up the three glasses of wine I had on an empty stomach when I went on an outing with my parents. I've never had sex in a bathroom, even my own, and I never will -- least of all with five guys. It's called "self-control." Does anyone even suggest to their kids anymore that they practice it? I'm so glad I never went away to university but stayed home and took the bus to community college instead.

Oxbay said...

You make some good points Althouse in general. In this case they don't mean squat. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of rape should be subject to the same penalty as someone who commits rape. It is wrong and evil to falsely accuse someone of rape.

MJ said...

"former law student said...
I've never understood the appeal of that type of scenario - I guess there's some sort of cameraderie.

Step one on the Road to Gayness."

The turnon isn't homoerotic. It's a sign of sexual insecurity. Someone may begin to fantasize about those with low standards because they can't imagine someone choosing them. In a group an insecure person can benefit from others' desireability.

former law student said...

The problem is that feminism took a shot in the mouth

Bazelon, like any free marketer, sees the world through the lens of her own self-interest. A woman who lies about being raped makes every real rape victim less credible. Bazelon will never be falsely accused of rape, so she can't relate to penis possessors. But she still might be a rape victim, so maintaining their credibility is essential.

Another thought I had: Not that this applies here, but consider that the first two or three guys might be consensual while the following two (or 22) might not be.

AllenS said...

2
22
222
2222
22222

Yeah, I see your point.

WV: mates

Hard to believe, isn't it?

Shanna said...

Someone who falsely cries rape should be subject to the penalties for rape.

The problem I see with this is that the accusations were false. Which is probably almost as difficult as proving they are true. (in general, not in this case).

If I believe the media (and men on the internet), most accusations of rape are false. If I believe what I know from women around me, most real rapes go unreported. We have a f’d up system where all of this is concerned.

Shanna said...

is that the accusations were false.

Sorry, I mean the PROVING that the accusations are false.

rhhardin said...

The trouble is that received feminism isn't seen as itself part of sexuality.

It's seen as above it.

So there's a need to protect that hierarchy from this or that apparent problem, lest it be put in play.

former law student said...

If I believe what I know from women around me, most real rapes go unreported.

The problem is that rape hinges on consent. Everyone can agree that the knife wielder who breaks into your house is a rapist. When it's the frat boy you invited in after your date, it's less clear-cut.

I like the old Antioch College (RIP) sexual consent policy. You can google the bullet points.

Triangle Man said...

I like the old Antioch College (RIP) sexual consent policy.

Do you like it in the genuine sense or in the ironic sense?

Salamandyr said...

It's really irrelevant whether having group sex is wrong or not. Whatever led her to desire sex with multiple partners at that time and place is of minuscule importance compared to the monstrous crime she was willing to perpetrate on her partners, simply to avoid inconveniencing herself.

I hope her boyfriend dumps her and finds someone better, at least someone smarter.

Lem said...

Is it possible that the charge “rape” has lost its.. ’ radioactivity’ (if you will) among the young just as the N word no longer packs a punch among young black males?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Bazelon, like any free marketer, sees the world through the lens of her own self-interest.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that seeing the world through the lens of one's self interest was something that was unique to 'free marketers'.

former law student said...

in the genuine sense or the ironic sense?

It's like a prenup -- it protects you if things later turn out badly. But 99% of the time it's unnecessary, and it rather spoils the mood.

Shanna said...

The lady who cleaned our bathroom at U -- I think her name was Ginny? -- did a most excellent job.

Ditto at my college, although I don’t think I would go there anyway. Although I lived in a co-ed dorm, they were set up like apartments, with bathrooms in a suit, rather than a group bathroom. I think that sort of bathroom for the whole floor situation is a bad idea, and less safe in general (regardless of this particular case).

madawaskan said...

David-

Wow-do I admire your class-that's rare on internet threads these days.

Mein God Gotten did you commit the sin of commenting before following the link and then not reading and memorizing the report verbatim-

Da iz veboten 11!&^#*! das ninkom poop

You! are the FIRST in ze history of ze internet to ever do zat !@

[anyways long story shot-ask any blogger about 80% of commenters never even read the post-the percent that don't go read all at the link?

Well could be hard to measure something that small-just ask Bissage...]

Lem said...

It seems to me that if the self preservation instincts of the young males did not kick in something overwhelming must have tripped that self preservation circuitry, aside from the allure of really bad sex.

To the point where not one brain was working.

I think it’s remarkable.

AllenS said...

From the miniseries:

Conversations With a Conceptual Date
by
AllenS

AllenS: "You're really hot, and I love you very much. Let's have sex."

Date: "OK, let's do it."

AllenS: "Sign this."

Fin

Hoosier Daddy said...

Is it possible that the charge “rape” has lost its.. ’ radioactivity’ (if you will) among the young just as the N word no longer packs a punch among young black males?

I think the charge starts losing its radioactivity once more details start coming to light. Getting raped on the way back to the dorm by a masked, knife armed assailant tends to be pretty cut and dry. Getting raped in some guy's dorm room you willingly went to at 1am after doing 15 shots of tequila and table dancing starts blurring the picture a bit.

I think its rather ironic that when a kid turns that miraculous age of 18 they suddenly become 'adults' who supposedly have the mental abilities to enter into legally binding contracts and vote for the President of the USA. Yet when it comes to what should be no-brainers, like getting blotto at a party and heading up to some guy's room suddently they're 'children' who are just learning what a fucked up place the real world can be.

Would be nice if we could stick with one playbook.

Shanna said...

Another possibility: In a campus hangout once, I saw an acquaintance of mine get drunk out of her mind on two drinks. The couple she was with assured me they would take her home. Which they did, to his home.

FLS, I was out with a friend one night who I had seen consume a ton of liquor and not have any problems. There were also two guys out with us that she knew. She started acting really odd after probably only having one drink or two. She could barely talk, was making odd noises and had to be guided along. We took her to IHOP and tried to feed her which didn’t help. The guys wanted us all to go over to their house, or they’d take her home or something. I said no, she stayed with me and was fine in the morning. But I’m pretty sure she’d been roofied by someone.

Meade said...

Fred4Pres said...
Here is some advice:

Women: Multiple partners in public is a bad idea.

Men: Multiple partners in public is a bad idea.


Everyone: Multiple partner sex is bad.

Lem said...

In the case of my DWI for example, no one could tell that I was in bad shape, it was ultimately MY breakdown, MY stupidity. this Hoftra was a group thing.

No one said ‘you know .. what are we doing?’

Not a one?

Largo said...

I was going to link to a most appropriate -- while simultaneously a most inappropriate -- banned Guiness ad.

But I'm feeling rather pusillanimous.

[Worried now that Chip might slam the door behind me!]

Lem said...

Reminds me of the anti-terror campaign here.
If you see something say something.

wv nutic

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I hope her boyfriend dumps her and finds someone better, at least someone smarter.

And gets himself tested for AIDS!!

@Andrea....never say never. Sex with your husband in the shower in the AM before work is a real pick me up for the rest of the day /wink.

Sex with random strangers in a public restroom. Not so much.

The girl is a slut and should be criminally charged for making false claims.

Bissage said...

Ditto to what Meade said at 9:20 and please let me throw something else in there: Sex with anyone you don’t love is bad.

DADvocate said...

Bazelon's take on the incident is completely warped. She supports a postion where all women should act according to what's best for feminism. Feminism uber alas.

Bissage said...

And please let me take this opportunity to thank Meade for an expression he used on Althouse a year or two ago. I might not remember it exactly but it was something like “masturbating into someone.” I’d never heard it put that way before. Sums it up pretty well, IMHO.

Eric said...

If I believe the media (and men on the internet), most accusations of rape are false.

I don't see where you get that idea. It's quite common for men to be convicted for rape purely on the word of the alleged victim. That wouldn't happen if we, men and women, didn't default to believing her story.

And that's why there so much anger towards fake victims like this one.

Bissage said...

IOW, it's wrong to use people.

That's just the way I roll.

exhelodrvr1 said...

David,
"Personally, I think this girl--I will now call her a young woman--showed quite a bit of courage and character to recant. "

It doesn't even come close to making up for the cowardice she showed with the initial claim.

Meade said...

John Lynch's comment at 7:39 PM bears repeating.

And while drinking is not a rapable offense, "date rape" rarely occurs under the influence of sobriety.

Dark Eden said...

However you want to parse this, she was willing to send five men to prison for decades in order to prevent her boyfriend from learning how willing she is to have sex with just about anyone just about anywhere.

And she would have gotten away with it if not for the tape.

And a lot of people are STILL taking her side even knowing all this!

So young men out there (especially young BLACK men!) ALWAYS TAPE IT! They can't send you to prison on a false allegation of rape if you have it on tape!

MrBuddwing said...

The NY Post talked to the woman's boyfriend:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/twisted_motive_behind_rape_story_niSXmOMgjcr2RTJiRkacXJ

(The boyfriend - or ex-boyfriend, for all we know - requested anonymity.)

MadisonMan said...

Interesting that one of the men was fired from his job, and another suspended from college for being charged with rape. Whatever happened to presumption of innocence? (That's a rhetorical question).

Lance said...

I'm late getting back to the discussion, but Rev said...
There is NO form of consensual sex that in any way excuses a false accusation of rape.

Agreed. I don't believe I said anything to suggest that.

To me, you're not distinguishing between "awful" and "criminal". I don't believe these five men are criminals. I don't know what the law says about false accusations, so I don't know whether she should be considered a criminal.

But regardless of legalities, what the men did to her was awful, and what she allowed them to do was awful. I can't imagine any of them feeling good about what they did.

Jon Sandor said...

Probably a lot of those calls are made in a highly emotional state. Later, when presumably some measure of rationality has returned, it might be worth it to the accused that the accuser has an easy out.




Yes, I see what you're saying here. But your argument presupposes the status quo, where men get sent to jail for twenty years simply on a womans say so. If we fix the underlying problem and start expecting proof beyond a reasonable doubt for conviction then this is not a problem. The guilty will go to jail and the innocent wll go free.

Nobody should ever go to jail merely on the basis of other persons accusations.

Jon Sandor said...

If I believe the media (and men on the internet), most accusations of rape are false.





Studies have shown that about half of all accusations of rape ARE false!

Which is what you'd expect when there is zero downside to making them.

Jon Sandor said...

"A cell-phone video. It was just five minutes and 58 seconds of grainy footage from a public men’s bathroom in a college dormitory, according to a defense attorney for one of the four men who was later charged. It did not show the entire incident, the attorneys acknowledge."



She could easily have claimed that what happened after was different from what the video showed.




Again, the supposition here is that we should all just believe whatever the woman crying rape says, and the evidence be damned.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

It's not my supposition. My supposition was that they needed her to recant, and it's a damn good thing that she did.

MadisonMan said...

Studies have shown that about half of all accusations of rape ARE false!

That statement is much different from one that says half of all rape accusations are false. Considerably different.

Beth said...

Any solution to false accusations of rape - or false accusations of any crime, because why punish malicious accusations for rape and not for other types of crimes? - would have to ensure people didn't get punished for reporting crimes that a DA just can't pursue - lack of witnesses, a victim or witness too fearful or unreliable to bring to testify, etc. I could support consequences for clearly false accusations if we could be assured that merely weak cases would not end up in punishment for an accuser.

Not naming rape suspects until charges are actually filed would possibly be a good start - I'm sure I haven't considered all the implications, but I'd like to hear what others have to say on that.

There would have to be exceptions, such as when there's a serial rapist operating and police want help finding him, using a composite sketch or description of his vehicle. Or what about an accused rapist with a previous record?

Bissage said...

Studies have shown that 63% of all internet statistics are false.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

So young men out there (especially young BLACK men!) ALWAYS TAPE IT! They can't send you to prison on a false allegation of rape if you have it on tape!

Of course, it might be a good idea to check that she's over 18 before starting the video camera. They take child pornography pretty seriously too.

Of course, you could just not have sex with anyone whom you don't know well enough to really trust. No, wait, what am I saying? That's crazy talk.

MrBuddwing said...

Nobody should ever go to jail merely on the basis of other persons accusations.

Well, this is where the perfesser's expertise would be most welcome. I'm no lawyer, never studied law, but isn't it legal doctrine ("black letter"?) that a person can't be convicted merely on the basis of an accusation, that there must be corroborating physical evidence of some kind?

Dark Eden said...

Of course, it might be a good idea to check that she's over 18 before starting the video camera. They take child pornography pretty seriously too.

Of course, you could just not have sex with anyone whom you don't know well enough to really trust. No, wait, what am I saying? That's crazy talk.

>>> Translation: Well they might not be guilty of rape, but these dirty males have to be guilty of something! They're men!

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Bissage said...

Studies have shown that 63% of all internet statistics are false.

Link please?

:)

Rick Lee said...

"Is this really what college has become?" Oh please... I never did anything like that (at the time I was what was called a "Jesus freak") but I heard plenty of gang bang stories when I was in college in the 70s... at certain frats it was a common occurrence.

Summer Anne said...

While I certainly agree that false accusations should be taken seriously and punished harshly, the overall tone in this thread is disturbing. You guys DO know that false accusations are a TINY problem when compared to rape and molestation, right?

Jon Sandor, "Studies have shown that about half of all accusations of rape ARE false!" -- please provide a link to these "studies." I've never heard of such a statistic before. Be outraged about this case but please don't turn this into gross generalizations.

I'm also disturbed by the number of people on this thread who seem to be implying that women are responsible for their own protection against rape. Fuck you. How about instead of suggesting that young women avoid parties or short skirts you suggest that young men avoid drugging or raping them? How about teaching "virtue" to future rapist boys when they're young?

Here's a disturbing study:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1437742#

that indicates that lots of people still don't believe that "no means no" -- in other words, they think that if a woman doesn't physically fight her attacker (many rape victims go into a physical shock when attacked) or if she's had sex with someone before, it can't be rape. These people serve on juries.

A lot of women are still AFRAID to report rape, especially when they are young and raped by family members. I worry that making a huge deal out of false accusations, which seem to me to be one in a million and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, would cause these young women to be even more afraid to report these heinous crimes. And that's the last thing anyone should want to come of this.

former law student said...

Link, please?



http://althouse.blogspot.com/2009/09/hofstra-university-gang-rape-that-wasnt.html#C209353428589085436

Summer Anne said...

Also, I can't believe that any of the normally reasonable regular commenters on here are responding to MnMark's comments as anything other than vicious hate speech from a troll... He wrote: "Is this really what all the affirmative action to get blacks into college was for?"

And then you guys are all "as MnMark pointed out..." blahblahblah. Come on people. Is this really what you want to be associated with? Some sick, racist guy who wants to assume based on one news story about a disturbing incident that all young black women are "sluts" who are out there looking for a gang bang? Man.

campy said...

You guys DO know that false accusations are a TINY problem when compared to rape and molestation, right?

That's your assertion.

Fuck you.

You can always count on a feminist to raise the tone of a discussion.

Summer Anne said...

That's your assertion.

Ooh! Scary. Yes, I am unafraid to assert that rape is a bigger problem than false rape accusation. Is that really so controversial? Are you really willing to assert otherwise? Wow! Are you married? Do you have any sisters or daughters? I hope you never have to experience anything that would lead you to change your mind about this. This is an isolated incident, which is why it's news. Women get raped every day and it doesn't make headlines.

You can always count on a feminist to raise the tone of a discussion.

Good one! Sorry, I'm not offended by cuss words and I tend to use them freely. I would say the tone of the discussion was lowered when MnMark said that this was what all black people do in college and you guys didn't call him out on it. I don't think a "fuck you" in the context of people blaming rape on women is so bad. :)

Summer Anne said...

Also, it's been awhile since I've been "dissed" by being called a feminist. That's always fun. You don't think women should have equal rights? Then I really don't need to be arguing with you about rape.

PatHMV said...

Lance, I think your last comment highlights a lot of the reasons for men and women talking past each other on this issue. You say that what the men "did to her" was awful, and that it was awful what "she allowed" the men to do to her.

In neither phrasing do you put any moral onus on her as the actor. The men DID something she merely ALLOWED it to be done. There's a world of moral difference in those two phrasings. She DID something. She chose to have sex with those men. Maybe her decision was a result of alcohol consumption or past trauma in her life. But so, too, perhaps were the decisions of the men who participated WITH her in what all of them did.

In our current climate, if a drunk man and a drunk woman decide to have sex, there is a large subsection of our population who will call that rape by the man, simply due to the woman's intoxication (not because she actually said "no," but because she's deemed to have been too intoxicated to consent). But for the man, "I was drunk and didn't fully realize what I was doing" is never a defense. So even though they have equal levels of intoxication, she's the victim and he's the criminal, in the eyes of a great many people today.

That's the same double-standard illustrated by your comment. Only men are considered the sexual actors, whereas women merely "allow" things to be done. That double-standard worked well in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but it doesn't hold up so well in the age of gender equality. If you don't hold the woman accountable for her own actions in cases like this (both legally AND morally), if you distinguish between her merely "allowing" something and the men "doing" something to her, then you are not recognizing her equality.

Shanna said...

If I believe the media (and men on the internet), most accusations of rape are false.

I don't see where you get that idea.


Well, let’s see. Kobe, Duke folks, this case, etc… It could be because regular rape is more of a dog bites man story, but still. And on the internet, I have been to some comments sections that really push this idea, with everyone having a story. Look around, trust me it's out there.

It's quite common for men to be convicted for rape purely on the word of the alleged victim.

I don’t know how true that statement is, but one would hope they would require some sort of additional evidence before conviction (like physical evidence of force). The problem is that some cases are very he said/she said and it’s just going to be hard to convict in general. The same goes for convicting somebody of lying about rape.

DADvocate said...

false accusations are a TINY problem

Only if you're the one making the false accusation. Not if you're the accused.

false accusations, which seem to me to be one in a million and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary

You're lazy, don't care to find the truth (it took me about one minute to do a web search) and perpetrate your peronal lies.

Evidence to the contrary, 25% to 40% are false.

DADvocate said...

"personal lies"

Shanna said...

Studies have shown that about half of all accusations of rape ARE false!

The vast majority of rapes go unreported. So maybe that leaves 1. People who were raped by strangers and 2. People who are faking as the only one’s going to the cops. Everyone else may believe that they don’t have enough evidence or that they will be embarrassed, and possibly that they will be accused of faking – which they probably will.
So…it’s a mess.

As for the actual case, I find it hard to believe she was really into it by the last guy.

Salamandyr said...

Ooh! Scary. Yes, I am unafraid to assert that rape is a bigger problem than false rape accusation. Is that really so controversial? Are you really willing to assert otherwise?

And I'm unafraid to make the assertion that they're about equally a problem, at least to the person victimized.

I have no idea if the rate of false accusation is as high as asserted here. I do know that a man falsely imprisoned for decades is as victimized as a woman who is assaulted and raped.

Do you really feel rape is so bad that it trumps our societal presumption of innocence? Is the imprisonment and forced servitude (and let's not forget probable abuse and rape) of innocent men a small cost compared to protecting women from second thoughts?

This woman was willing to destroy the lives of five men just to hide her activities. That takes a level of sociopathy beyond even crimes of passion.

campy said...

Wow! Are you married? Do you have any sisters or daughters?

You have any brothers or sons?

Bruce Hayden said...

Frat boys were doing gangbangs back when porn viewing was limited to late night smokers, and to the occasional movie theater where the patrons kept their hats over their laps.

Must have missed something as a frat boy. Pretty sure it didn't happen in my house, and definitely not while I was president. And we didn't have any complaints about any other houses either while I was on IFC.

The only story I heard while I was in college was some women who was traveling with and supposedly did the hockey team. Or part of it. It wasn't clear then, and even less so now.

Roofies really are a problem these days. We think my SO has been hit twice now. Luckily, she was with someone she trusted both times. One time, she was with her cousin, who had been active in the Las Vegas social scene, and knew almost immediately what was going on.

So, now, a lot of high school kids are getting training to try to protect them, esp. as they get ready for college. The rule is that if you put a drink down, for even a moment, it is no longer your drink.

Shanna said...

MnMark said that this was what all black people do in college and you guys didn't call him out on it.

His comment was not right and someone already pointed that out, so I didn’t bother.

Shanna said...

And I'm unafraid to make the assertion that they're about equally a problem, at least to the person victimized.

They are both a problem, I don’t think you can equate the two, as it’s apples and oranges. Both suck. I’m curious how many of these “false accusations” actually lead to conviction. Any of you stat folks want to chime in?

Summer Anne said...

Unsurprisingly, you are all ignoring what I actually said in my original post. What I said was that I AGREED that false accusations should be taken seriously and punished harshly. And I didn't mean to claim that being accused of rape is not serious to a particular victim (although I would only go so far as to say "as serious as rape" if the man was incarcerated -- being accused of something and then having it proven wrong is hardly equatable to being sexually assaulted). I just mean that as far as the actual numbers are concerned, accusations of rape are a smaller problem in the world than rape. Like plane accidents versus car accidents. It doesn't mean that people who die in planes are any less victimized -- it's just "less of a problem" because it happens less often!

"One in a million" was admittedly an exaggeration. But the study provided (a Fox News link) doesn't account for unreported rape cases, which are by all serious accounts a huge number. It also doesn't account for rape outside of the USA, which are a huge problem, particularly in Africa and the Middle East, and during war anywhere.

Campy, yes. I have a brother and a boyfriend and a dad and lots of male friends. None of them have ever been accused of rape. I know half a dozen women that have been raped or assaulted. What was your point?

Scott M said...

@Edgehopper

There is no sign that this was a traumatic experience for Miss Ndonye.

Edge, that is a direct physical assault on the word "miss". I call rape.

John said...

Summer Anne,

First, because of prison rape, more men are raped in this country every year than women. So, stop acting like rape is a strictly women's issue.

Second, you don't know how many false accusations of rape there are. Unless the woman recants, lots of false accuastions are never discovered. Since you don't know how many false accusations there are and how many innocent people are in jail for rape, you can't say that it is not as big of a problem as rape.

I am sorry, but you anicdote doesn't prove anything.

MadisonMan said...

Summer Anne, did you miss my 8:49 pm comment?

John said...

In principle it sounds great to jail women who make false accusations. The problem is that you want women who have made false accusations to come forward and recant. If you throw them in jail, you make that less likly. As infuriating as it is, I think we are better off not prosecuting women who admit to making false accusations.

Shanna said...

I have a brother and a boyfriend and a dad and lots of male friends. None of them have ever been accused of rape. I know half a dozen women that have been raped or assaulted. What was your point?

Same here.

Scott M said...

@Summer Anne

Rape aside, which is a horrible problem, granted, and one that I as a parent of both boys and girls will do the best I can on, need to ask you something since you brought equal rights between the sexes. Forgetting for a moment that the burden of proof (in a social sense) is almost always on the male the instant the last word of the accusation leaves the lips of the accuser, please answer this questing regarding gender equality.

Was there something you had to do, by law, when you turned 18 or face possible felony charges, lack of employment, fines and/or jail time purely based on your plumbing?

campy said...

What was your point?

Same as your point in asking about my family.

Assuming you had one.

Scott M said...

Almost forgot...

Please stop bringing out the old "most rapes go unreported" schtick.

Let's say you're right. What do you suppose the ratio is from unreported non-consensual sex to consensual sex that never, ever gets talked about?

Is it a huge problem? Maybe. If 5 million, since we're not talking about real numbers, consensual hook ups happen for every 1000 unreported rapes, is that huge problem? What if it's 5 million to 100?

My point is that it's utterly pointless to argue about unreported anything while trying to talk statistics. Apples and oranges.

John said...

I have prosecuted several rape cases in the military. I can tell you from experience they are rarely clear cut.

I would be curious to know what the background of some of the women on this thread is who seem to think that no women would ever make a false accusation.

There is a certain bread of privileged white women, of which Bazelon is defitely one, who have never had any experience beyond their privlidged little world. They have no idea how people actually act. So they think "I would never..." and assume everyone else does the same. That is not quite true.

First, I can tell you from my experience as a prosecutor, it is not unheard of for young women to have sex with lots of men at once. Second, women also often get buyer's remorse after sleeping with someone, especially if they have a boyfriend or the person they slept with was someone they shouldn't have been sleeping with.

For example, I had a case where a young female lieutenant was at a unit function and got drunk and started making out in public and dancing with her married platoon SGT. They were later found in his car having sex. She claimed he had raped her. Now, she was committing both adultery and fraternization by sleeping with the SGT. None of the physical evidence was consistent with rape. So we never brought the case. But, the accusation did save her career and get transferred to a cushy job. Women can and will lie about these things. I can give you at least five other stories where the accusation was either outright false or it was impossible to tell what the hell happened.

DADvocate said...

by all serious accounts a huge number.

Maybe. Many of those "serious" accounts are by feminist who have an agenda to push. How big is "huge." You have already shown a penchant for gross exageration.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

"I would be curious to know what the background of some of the women on this thread is who seem to think that no women would ever make a false accusation."

Can you point out who those women are and what they said that caused you to think that they think no woman would ever make a false accusation?

Shanna said...

Was there something you had to do, by law, when you turned 18 or face possible felony charges, lack of employment, fines and/or jail time purely based on your plumbing?

A lot of men seem obsessed with this. If you don’t like it, try to get the law changed, but it doesn’t mean women have to walk around feeling bad about it. Or that it needs to be brought up in every discussion.

Please stop bringing out the old "most rapes go unreported" schtick…

Why should that offend you so. It’s not about a statistic, it’s just more information to bring to the discussion.

I would be curious to know what the background of some of the women on this thread is who seem to think that no women would ever make a false accusation.

What women on the thread said that? (jinx, Laura)

John said...

Fair enough Laura. They did not say no women would EVER make one. But Summer Anne argued that such things are so rare that they don't warrent concern for anyone besides the rare people who are involved.

That is just complete bunk. They are not, at least in mine and a lot of other people I know who have worked in the criminal justice system' experience, rare at all.

And no, I am not some heartless man who thinks all women are lying. I have prosecuted and won real rape cases and sent people to jail for years. And was very happy to do it. But, I also saw enough in my years as a prosecutor to know that the idea that false rape allegations are some miniscule part of rape allegations as a whole is just bunk.

Summer Anne said...

John,

Where is your link on "more" men being raped in this country than women? And I never said rape was strictly a women's issue. I know better. I wasn't the one who brought up feminism, someone else did.

You're right that I don't know how many false accusations there are. Neither do you. But are you really willing, honestly, to say that you think there are as many men accused falsely of raping someone as there are women who are raped?? Combining all of the widows raped by soldiers in war, all of the prisoners raped by inmates in our prison system, all of the little girls touched by their grandpas, all of the wives who say they don't want to have sex and have their husbands force them to, all of the women in impoverished neighborhoods raped in alleys, all of them equal the number of men falsely accused? I doubt you really think that.

Scott,

No. And I also don't think drafting should exist in the form it does now. And if it's going to exist, I think women should be drafted as well as men. Are we good? Also, despite my feelings on that particular matter, equal doesn't always mean identical. All I was pointing out earlier is that I find it weird for "feminist" to be a derogatory term when all it means is that I think women and men should have equal opportunities. :)

Hoosier Daddy said...

I'm also disturbed by the number of people on this thread who seem to be implying that women are responsible for their own protection against rape. Fuck you.

Well allow me to retort. Are you an adult? If so then yes, you are responsible for your own protection.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Summer Anne Said...

I'm also disturbed by the number of people on this thread who seem to be implying that women are responsible for their own protection against rape. Fuck you.

Could you point out some of those comments? I just re-read them all. I only found two that recommenced avoiding alcohol to avoid these problems. The first was specific to avoiding the situation mentioned in this article: consentual sex that you regret later, and that comment addressed both the woman and the men.

The other was by Meade, saying:

And while drinking is not a rapable offense, "date rape" rarely occurs under the influence of sobriety.

How do you read that as blaming the victim? I teach my daughter to look both ways before crossing the street, even at a crosswalk where the cars are required to stop. I guess I should have taught her to cross without looking, and tell society that they need to train drivers better. Sounds like a good plan.

fivewheels said...

"false accusations, which seem to me to be one in a million and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary..."

That statement is not quite saying no women ever lie, but describing it as such is less of an exaggeration than the "one in a million" comment itself.

More to the point, Summer Anne has a typical ideological problem in internet threads. She thinks the topic of women making false accusations should not ever be discussed, because other problems are so much worse. It's like when certain people interrupted any of Althouse's threads about trivial but fun topics by saying: "Why aren't you talking about the WAR! People are dying! Torture!"

And like Bazelon, she seems to think that the main problem with a false accusation of rape is not the false accusation itself, but that it detracts from the only discussion of rape she thinks is worthy of discussion, which is that 99.999 percent of men are guilty.

John said...

You're right that I don't know how many false accusations there are. Neither do you. But are you really willing, honestly, to say that you think there are as many men accused falsely of raping someone as there are women who are raped??


No. But you miss the point. You compared them to plane crases above. That is bull. If even say 10% of all rape accusations are false (and that fits with my experience very well) that is a huge number of innocent people being falsly accused and hundreds or perhaps 1000s of innocent people in jail.

Your logic here is completely cockeyed. By your logic, since there are most people in prison for murder are guilty and only a few innocent, sending innocent people to jail is not a "big problem". No, sending even a small number of innocent people to jail is a BIG PROBLEM. And since it relates to the fairness and credibility of our justice system, every bit as big of a problem as the underlying crime.


Combining all of the widows raped by soldiers in war,

We are talking about the American justice system here not world wide. Systematic rapes do happen in Africa but that is about it. And not here or by US Soldiers. So I am not sure what the hell you are talking about here.

all of the prisoners raped by inmates in our prison system, all of the little girls touched by their grandpas,

Again, see my point above. Sending innocent people to jail is a big problem. Just because it is rape doesn't alievate due process.

all of the wives who say they don't want to have sex and have their husbands force them to,

Having sex with your husband to make him happy is not rape. To say that it is is an insult to real rape vicitims.

all of the women in impoverished neighborhoods raped in alleys, all of them equal the number of men falsely accused?

Again, because women are raped, you think that it is no big deal to send innocent people to jail? I doubt you actually think that. Or at least I hope so.

Jon Sandor said...

Combining all of the widows raped by soldiers in war, all of the prisoners raped by inmates in our prison system, all of the little girls touched by their grandpas, all of the wives who say they don't want to have sex and have their husbands force them to, all of the women in impoverished neighborhoods raped in alleys, all of them equal the number of men falsely accused?





There's an expansive definition of rape. You left out "all the women who ever wore a tube top and had men look at them against their will!"


In any case here is some hard data on the validity of rape claims in the US.

Link.



A study of rape allegations in Indiana over a nine-year period revealed that over 40% were shown to be false — not merely unproven. According to the author, “These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations.”


Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with “scary frequency.” As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver’s ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that “any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes.” According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly half of all reported rape claims are false.

That false allegations are a major problem has been confirmed by several prominent prosecutors, including Linda Fairstein, who heads the New York County District Attorney’s Sex Crimes Unit. Fairstein, the author of “Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape,â€? says, “there are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen.”

Laura(southernxyl) said...

"Again, because women are raped, you think that it is no big deal to send innocent people to jail? I doubt you actually think that."

I doubt she thinks that too, mostly because she didn't say it or anything like it.

Shanna said...

Well allow me to retort. Are you an adult? If so then yes, you are responsible for your own protection.

Where protection is possible. Many things can be avoided by being careful, but some things cannot. The goes for burglaries, murder or any other crime.

PatHMV said...

Summer Anne, can we stick to rapes and false allegations thereof in the United States? The cultures, legal systems, and social realities of Africa, the Middle East, and other parts of the world are far different from ours. I'm fairly certain that even those arguing against you most strongly regarding statistics are, at least in their mind, referring to statistics in the United States, not Africa.

Shanna said...

And while drinking is not a rapable offense, "date rape" rarely occurs under the influence of sobriety.

I’m not sure about the “rarely” part, but it definitely would cut down on some.

John said...

"I doubt she thinks that too, mostly because she didn't say it or anything like it."

No. What she did was worse than that. She implied it by saying that rape is a much worse problem than false allegation. If rape is so much worse, then by implication we shouldn't be as concerned with false allegations, right?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Where protection is possible. Many things can be avoided by being careful, but some things cannot. The goes for burglaries, murder or any other crime.

Naturally. I was speaking mostly on the issue of date rape where usually large amounts of alcohol are involved which tend to blur the inhibitions of both parties as well as recollection of what actually transpired.

I'm sure many of us at some point in our lives have woken up the next day and said: I did WHAT?

Jon Sandor said...

the study provided (a Fox News link) doesn't account for unreported rape cases, which are by all serious accounts a huge number.




How can you say that they are a huge number if they are unreported?


A lot of women are still AFRAID to report rape




Clearly this does not include the fifty percent of women reporting rapes which never happened.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

"I doubt she thinks that too, mostly because she didn't say it or anything like it."

No. What she did was worse than that. She implied it by saying that rape is a much worse problem than false allegation. If rape is so much worse, then by implication we shouldn't be as concerned with false allegations, right?


I guess, since implying something is evidently "worse" according to you than saying it outright.

Shanna said...

A lot of women are still AFRAID to report rape

Clearly this does not include the fifty percent of women reporting rapes which never happened.


Obviously not, since they didn’t report anything to the police and thus are not included in your stats. What on earth is your point?

Summer Anne said...

First of all, to John:

But Summer Anne argued that such things are so rare that they don't warrent concern for anyone besides the rare people who are involved.

No I didn't. I said that I thought it was less of a problem than rape. My position is that I fear some of the tactics suggested in this thread -- such as false accusers unilaterally suffering the same penalties as rapists -- were taking things a little too far, and would likely lead to even fewer of rapes being reported for fear that they wouldn't be able to be proven and the victim would have to go to jail.

Since you've now come out and said your previous post was about me, let me address that...

I would be curious to know what the background of some of the women on this thread is who seem to think that no women would ever make a false accusation.

What about my "background" are you curious about and how does it change the legitimacy of me having an opinion about rape? I'm white. Female. 27. Straight. I wouldn't call myself "privileged" by most American blog-readers standards. I don't have health insurance. I've never been raped, but I have been threatened with sexual violence while walking on the street -- numerous times. I have called the cops on men who followed me or tried to lure me into their cars three times. I have several friends and a family member who have been raped or molested as children. I voted for Barack Obama.

My argument is not that I can't "imagine" a woman falsely accusing a man of rape because "I would never". That would be as ridiculous as saying that I know no man would ever rape because my boyfriend wouldn't. You can give me more credit than that. False accusations happen, and they are terrible. But as widespread an issue as rape? No. Just, no. And as such, I think it's appropriate to hope that the way these cases are dealt with does not have a negative affect on the number of rape victims that report their crimes. That is all I am trying to say.

MarkW said...

It's amazing to me how greatly many people here -- mostly women -- are understimating how terrible it would be to be falsely accused and convicted of rape. I would rather have my right arm cut off (and I'm right-handed) than have that happen to me, and it's not even a close call.

A rape conviction is life destroying, whereas the loss of an arm is not. If you are convicted of rape, you will lose everything and never be able to get it back. Even once you're out of prison, you'll be a pariah -- a listed sex offender for life who, in many states, can hardly even find a legal place to live.

All that being the case, the penalties for false accusations should be severe and strictly enforced.

Summer Anne said...

Well allow me to retort. Are you an adult? If so then yes, you are responsible for your own protection.

Do you think that a man walking down the street who is shot by a car driving by was "responsible" for not ducking fast enough? The only person "responsible" for rape is a rapist. I didn't think in this age that was up for debate.

Summer Anne said...

More to the point, Summer Anne has a typical ideological problem in internet threads. She thinks the topic of women making false accusations should not ever be discussed, because other problems are so much worse

By discussing it, I don't see how I was implying that it shouldn't be discussed. My angle is that this other very much RELATED problem is "much worse" and that this smaller issue should be treated with some care considering the affect it might have on actual rape VICTIMS. Where did I say it shouldn't be discussed?

Jon Sandor said...

I know half a dozen women that have been raped or assaulted.




Lots of lying women on this thread. Although considering the expansive use of "assaulted", perhaps stupid rather then dishonest.

I expect that 95% of men have been "assaulted" if we use it to mean "any unwelcome physical contact or verbal abuse".

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