June 10, 2009

The shooting at the Holocaust Museum.

The press is reporting the suspect as "James Von Brunn, a white supremacist, born 1920."

89 years old?!

AND: Via Tapped:
Von Brunn maintains a white-supremacist Web site, HolyWesternEmpire.org. The biography of Von Brunn on the site states that he spent over six years in federal prison for attempting to "place the treasonous Federal Reserve Board of Governors under legal, non-violent, citizens arrest." A World War II veteran and resident of Maryland, Von Brunn is the author of a pamphlet entitled "Kill the Best Gentiles: A new, hard-hitting exposé of the JEW CONSPIRACY to destroy the White gene-pool." He is a Holocaust denier who has written that "Hilter's worse mistake" was that "he didn't gas the Jews."

300 comments:

1 – 200 of 300   Newer›   Newest»
TitusisRagingHard said...

Absolutely disgusting.

See you in Madison Althouse.

traditionalguy said...

A cult of mind control by ideas like this mensa guy fell into is not right wing any more than Jim Jones of Jonestown was right wing. The wise Jews in DC did what we all need to do when attacked by crazy people...Defend ourselves with our guns.

reader_iam said...

From what I've seen on various broadcast news outlets, they're being very careful about the age issue. I personally suspect it's because of the very first entry they encountered upon Googling (or, at least it was the first one an hour or so ago; I suspect the first are current news ones, now) which, frankly, took me aback, too. (And you wouldn't want to make a mistake of ID'ing the wrong person due to shared name.) They are, and have been, talking a lot about the second one. Yet the initial age reports, and the one to which this post reers, corresponds with the info contained in that first (again, then, anyway) Google hit.

Jeremy said...

Anybody remember the warning about right wing extremists that was shouted down...by the right wing?

Well, it's here.

Jeremy said...

reader_iam - The asshole who did the shooting is 89, spent time in prison and is a full on anti-Semitic.

It's a wonder he didn't take out a bunch of kids.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Anybody remember the warning about right wing extremists that was shouted down...by the right wing?.

Right wing? The guy shot up the Holocaust Museum. I'll wager he's already got his picture hanging up in the street shops in Gaza next to the other martyrs.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Then again I bet Jeremy, like Alpha thinks the US soldier murdered in Arkansas by the Muslim was just an 'unfortunate accident'.

L. E. Lee said...

This guy by all accounts is a fanatic nut. Trying to link him to mainstream politics either on the left or the right is pointless and more than a little crass.

reader_iam said...

One can safely assume that I have been following the story via broadcast and online and that I first Googled the name of the shooter within, oh, 10 seconds of hearing it.

Palladian said...

L.E. Lee is exactly right. These incidents are not indictments of anything except the insanity of the perpetrator.

But that won't stop the pondscum of the Earth from doing their best to exploit the incident for their own low-bred political purposes.

aser said...

Holocaust Museum shooting...
The video from the scene:Holocaust Museum shooting-video

L. E. Lee said...

Hoosier Daddy wrote
"I'll wager he's already got his picture hanging up in the street shops in Gaza next to the other martyrs."

There is no doubt that the Arab world has it small percentage of fanatics. Just like we have Timothy McVeigh's and this guy.

reader_iam said...

I agree that whether you're talking about extremists/terrorists shooting soldiers, abortion doctors or museum security guards, or, for that matter, bombing federal buildings or flying planes in skyscrapers, the most salient point is the extremism and why those particular extremists decided to act out physically, thus turning them into terrorists.

I do not believe any of them can fairly be used as representative of mainstream. They are first and foremost twisted, lost and even evil individuals.

HOWEVER, I do not see anything wrong in placing them within a philosophical, even political continuum for the purposes of understanding their own contexts. What, we're supposed to ignore all that? That seems a tad silly too me, and certainly unrealistic.

AlphaLiberal said...

Anybody remember the warning about right wing extremists that was shouted down...by the right wing? .

Yes, that was the report commissioned by the Bush Administration and delivered during the Obama Administration warning of increasing domestic violence from the right wing.

They were on to something.

There could be hundreds killed by various rightists across the country, though, and their apologists would cry foul at anyone pointing we have increasing violence in America and against Americans by right wingers.

America, we have a problem. But conservatives want us to ignore violence arising from their ranks.

L. E. Lee said...

Alpha wrote
"But conservatives want us to ignore violence arising from their ranks."

I almost always agree with you Alpha but not that.

AlphaLiberal said...

Palladian:
L.E. Lee is exactly right. These incidents are not indictments of anything except the insanity of the perpetrator. .

I really don't think the Tiller Killer was insane. This new guy I don't know enough about to opine.

He was a frustrated anti-abortionist. He has said more anti-abortion killings are on the way. Who knows if he's blowing smoke or if we have cells of killers waiting for their chance.

And, cons ignore this question, what's with the run on guns and ammo?

former law student said...

How can anybody stroll around the National Mall with a rifle, without notice? So much for DC gun control.

Googling James von Brunn turns up websites with "vanguard" and "stormfront" in their names. Likely Von Brunn thinks the Holocaust never happened, so the mere existence of a museum upset him.

A nut like him is neither left nor right wing.

John said...

Alpha,

This is left wing violence. The right defends Israel. The left hates Israel and jews. It marches with Hezibollah and considers Israel to be worse than South Africa or any of its neighbors. Walt and Meresheimer published an openly anti-semetic paper accusing American Jews of being a fifthe collumn and were defended and applauded on the left and condemed only by the mainstream right.

It is no coincidence this attack happened just a few days after the Obama's Cairo speech. Sorry dude but this is leftist violence. You own it not us.

Hoosier Daddy said...

There is no doubt that the Arab world has it small percentage of fanatics. Just like we have Timothy McVeigh's and this guy..

Hmmm. We have Tim McVeigh and this guy and they have...Osama, Arafat, Zarquai, Zarwahiri, Armageddonjad, Mullah Omar, Muqtada al-Sadr, with thier tiny minority of followers in Hamas, Hezbollah, Mahdi army, Fatah, Islamic Brotherhood, Revolutionary Guard, Taliban, janjaweed...oh never mind.

John said...

"A nut like him is neither left nor right wing."

True enough. It is all one sick swamp: 9-11 truthers, anti-globalists, radical greens, radical Islamists, holocaust deniers, black liberation theologans. It is pretty hard to keep track of which side the nuts are really on.

AlphaLiberal said...

L.E. Lee:

I almost always agree with you Alpha but not that.

hey, thanks.

Well, that's based on being told over and over by conservatives that the killings had nothing to do with anything except the individual killers.

Maybe I wrote it wrong. But I just wonder how many people need to die before some people on the right consider the idea that we have too much extremism.

And, maybe a political movement that demonizes their opponents* is playing a role in helping push these people go over the edge.

(* e.g. "Obama is a Manchurian candidate muslim who is not even an American and wants to install socialism")

John said...

For the record Tim McVeigh was a leftist athiest. He grew completely disenchanted with US foreign policy during the first Gulf War. He was very militant in his hatred of Israel and US militarism. There was nothing right wing about him. People just think he was right wing because he was white.

former law student said...

what's with the run on guns and ammo?

With a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress, rational people expect more gun control laws to be enacted. President Obama served on the board of the virulently anti-gun Joyce Foundation. He modulated his anti-gun stance for campaign purposes last year. So get it before they ban it, is the message since November.

The last pro-gun Democratic Presidential candidate was Hubert Humphrey. The most prominent pro-gun Democrat still alive is John Dingell.

L. E. Lee said...

Hoosier Daddy why are you so invested in smearing a whole race of people? It seems you are part of the problem not the solution.

Also, are they not having elections in Iran tomorrow?

John said...

"And, maybe a political movement that demonizes their opponents* is playing a role in helping push these people go over the edge. "


You mean like Bush is listening to your phone calls? Like GUITMO is worse than Auschwitz? Like Dick Cheney is the evilist man in the world who was behind 9-11 so that we could invade Aghanistan to build a pipeline? Things like that. Did you live in a cave from 2001-2008?

AlphaLiberal said...

John makes up this nonsense:

This is left wing violence. .

Oh come on! White supremacists are not liberals! And Democrats had an African - American candidate!

More on the killer:

He also wrote an internet posting complaining that Obama's birth certificate and other documents have not been made public. .

Yeah, that sounds just like a Democrat!

From the killer:
Millions of low IQ non-whites are encouraged to illegally invade the USA . .

Bullshit, John.

AlphaLiberal said...

John hyperventilates and makes up things the liberal movement never said:

You mean like Bush is listening to your phone calls? .

Who said that> Bush authorized warrantless wiretapping. Someone else ran the taps.

You're pretty dishonest or deluded. Please, don't clarify.

AlphaLiberal said...

John, you are pretty ignorant:

For the record Tim McVeigh was a leftist athiest. .

John said...

Again Alpha,

You can't tell the nuts apart anymore. I gaurentee you when it comes to globalization and Isreal and the power of Jews in this country, this guy agrees with the Left a hell of a lot more than he agrees with the Right. It is not the Right that is claiming Jews have too much influence over US policy and that Isreal is a criminal state. If you don't like this guy's fleas, stop laying down with him.

Jeff with one 'f' said...

The difference between the right and the left is this: Eric Rudolph is in prison while Bill Ayers is on the faculty of the University of Illinois.

L. E. Lee said...

re: conversation here.

Like I said "pretty pointless".

AlphaLiberal said...

John, how do you know what this fellow thinks? Are you familiar with him?

His writings claiming Obama is not really an American citizen were posted to the Free Republic. (Source.)

Denial is all you've got. You can't cite an actual fact and are just making shit up.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier Daddy why are you so invested in smearing a whole race of people? .

I wasn't aware that Muslims were a race.

Also, are they not having elections in Iran tomorrow?.

What's your point? Saddam Hussein had elections too.

AlphaLiberal said...

Jeff tries his hand at misdirection:

blah blah ...Bill Ayers... blah blah

John said...

"After his parents' divorce, McVeigh lived with his father; his sisters moved to Florida with their mother. He and his father were Roman Catholics who often attended daily Mass. In a recorded interview with Time magazine[12] McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "never really picked it [back] up." The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter claiming to be an agnostic.[13] McVeigh at one time said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."[14]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

McVeigh was an anti-tax nut. But his views on the first Gulf War and mistrust of the government were nothing but modern leftism.

John said...

"His writings claiming Obama is not really an American citizen were posted to the Free Republic."

Why would you shoot someone at the holocaust museum because you think Obama is a muslum? Because you are nuts I guess. Regardless of what he wrote this is another in a long line of terrorist acts committed against Jews, which is something the Left has come to encourage over the last twenty years.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Funny how when the right wing supports Israel we're just a bunch of pro-Zionists who support the illegal occupation.

Then when some guy goes apeshit in a Holocaust Museum and is openly anti-semetic he's a right winger.

It really is hard to keep up with the rule changes.

AlphaLiberal said...

John, do you actually think you can tell someone's political beliefs by their religious beliefs?

There are atheist conservatives, atheist moderates and atheist liberals.

Stunning.

Yeah, Lee, a waste of time.

John said...

Alpha,

You have to understand that fascism is not conservatism. It is repackaged leftism. When the Left embraces people like Walt and Mesheimer, calls American Jews a 5th collumn, and calls Isreal a criminal state, you are alligning yourself with people like this.

L. E. Lee said...

Hoosier Daddy wrote
"What's your point? Saddam Hussein had elections too."

You making a comparison between the Iranian elections tomorrow to Saddam Hussein is either the result of great ignorance on your part or of deep seated prejudice that resides within you.

AlphaLiberal said...

Funny how when the right wing supports Israel we're just a bunch of pro-Zionists who support the illegal occupation. .

I don't know who made that argument. Not any libs I read.

Prominent liberals who have noticed the new support for Israel from evangelical conservatives point to statements from cons that supporting Israel helps usher in end times.

Have you ever thought of reacting to what people actually say instead of making up words to attribute to them?

You might want to give it a try. It's called "honesty."

John said...

"Funny how when the right wing supports Israel we're just a bunch of pro-Zionists who support the illegal occupation.

Then when some guy goes apeshit in a Holocaust Museum and is openly anti-semetic he's a right winger."

Exactly. Anti-semetism is tolerated and practiced on the Left and condemed on the Right. Yet somehow, some nut going out and shooting a Jew is "right wing terrorism."

Hoosier Daddy said...

You making a comparison between the Iranian elections tomorrow to Saddam Hussein is either the result of great ignorance on your part or of deep seated prejudice that resides within you..

Nope, just a pretty careful observation as to how elections work in Iran.

Bob said...

It's not as if extremists are always young men. 67-year-old Edmund Ruffin helped fire the shots that started the US Civil War, for example.

former law student said...

The difference between the right and the left...

Is obscured by the difference between someone who planted bombs that killed and wounded innocent bystanders, and a person whose associates blew themselves up.

But speaking of successful bombers, where does Ted Kaczynski fit on the lefty-righty axis?

John said...

I have been to anti-Isreal rallies here in Washington. They full of violent anti-semetic people marching hand in hand with mainstream liberals. We spent the last 8 years hearing about how NeoCons (who just happen to all be Jewish) are destroying the country to protect Isreal.

You are a typical liberal Alpha. No one on your side is ever guilty of anything. No matter how vile their actions, it is still all the other side's fault. Pathetic.

AlphaLiberal said...

Before I return to earning my keep, I want to share these words from conservative Krauthammer which echo what I and many other liberals say:

What Fox did is not just create a venue for alternative opinion. It created an alternate reality.

A few years ago, I was on a radio show with a well-known political reporter who lamented the loss of a pristine past in which the whole country could agree on what the facts were, even if they disagreed on how to interpret and act upon them. All that was gone now. The country had become so fractured we couldn’t even agree on what reality was. What she meant was that the day in which the front page of The New York Times was given scriptural authority everywhere was gone, shattered by the rise of Fox News.
.

The wanker thinks this intentional dishonesty is a good thing.

When we can't even agree on basic facts in this country maybe our ability to have civil civic dialog is gone.

Source:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/10/krauthammer-alternative-reality/

Hoosier Daddy said...

I don't know who made that argument. Not any libs I read. .

Then you clearly have a very selective reading list.

John said...

"But speaking of successful bombers, where does Ted Kaczynski fit on the lefty-righty axis?"

Kaxzynski was a true 19th Century romatic. He hated technology and modern society. He shared a lot of characteristic with radical environmentalists. He was much more Left than right. But in the end was kind of his own cat.

AlphaLiberal said...

...where does Ted Kaczynski fit on the lefty-righty axis?

Read his stuff and try to make sense of it. I do think that's one mentally ill fuck.

And he acted alone. There has not been a series of Unibomber killings as in the abortion killings of the past 20 years.

John said...

"When we can't even agree on basic facts in this country maybe our ability to have civil civic dialog is gone."

Translation, if everyone would just shut up and agree with me and stop confronting me with all these pesky facts and opinion, things would be a lot better. yeah Alpha, things were so much better when the media could lie and get away with it until the historians went back and proved them wrong.

Chase said...

Enjoying seeing Alpha get caught on this one.

Haters of Jews and Israel are on the right all right - so far extreme no one wants em.

But John is spot on - the dumping on Israel and Jews in particular isn't from the right - it's completely on the left.

The fleas are heavier on the liberal side on this one.

L. E. Lee said...

Hoosier Daddy wrote
"Nope, just a pretty careful observation..."

I doubt it. I seriously doubt that you have any knowledge about Iranian politics/society beyond you latent prejudices.

John said...

"And he acted alone. There has not been a series of Unibomber killings as in the abortion killings of the past 20 years."

Shut the fuck up. There was ERic Rudolph, the idiot who shot that guy in New York and then this recent case. A handful of cases strung out over twenty years. Yeah, the people responsible should be shot. But get real. Funny how liberals don't think 9-11 was a big deal or worth doing anything different over, but are ready to turn the country into a police state over a few people being killed at abortion clinics.

Bob Sacamano said...

This is all very simple. When terrorists arise from the Right (or what can be classified simply as the Right), then smart conservatives support the rule of law. People like McVeigh get the justice that they deserve and are promptly executed by the government that they are trying to bring down.

Meanwhile, terrorists on the Left get a slightly different treatment. They become tenured professors at our universities, are appointed to powerful positions on public boards and get to advise the future POTUS.

Chase said...

"When we can't even agree on basic facts in this country maybe our ability to have civil civic dialog is gone."


It's the misrepresentation of - and elimination of uncomfortable - facts and the use of placing only certain ones in a certain light by the America-hating New York Times and it's America-hating, self-hating publisher Pinch Sulzberger and his forebears that have hurt the civil discourse in this country.


The good reporting and writing done by the the NYTimes is far offset by the abuse of it's position as the pace setter news front of the Main Stream Media. It's demise would be a net plus for the United States and civil discourse.

traditionalguy said...

Hoosier D...I believe the "Nazi's are right wing" meme came from the 1930s when the first propaganda by the Nazi's claimed to be saving Germany out of a Crisis caused by communists. Then Adolph and joe signed an agreement to each murder their half of the Polish people and steal their stuff, and suddenly Communist Party favored Nazi Germany and worked against America's helping England. Next the Germans invaded Russia, and the Germans instantly became the right wing again. Truth is they were both Totalitarians dedicated to stealing the property of whoever they could kill next. Labels like right wing are just labels used to give the left wing Reditributers a common enemy when they go raiding, like they did in Poland.

TRO said...

"Who said that> Bush authorized warrantless wiretapping. Someone else ran the taps.

You're pretty dishonest or deluded. Please, don't clarify."

And Barry is keeping them going.

John said...

Let's see. Bill Ayers violent extremeist ends up budies with a future President and a profession, Mumia Abdul Jamal violent extremist cop killer gives commencement speeches from death row and is an honoray citizen of Paris. Yasser Arrafat repsonsible for the deaths of thousands and later gets the Nobel Peace Prize.

Eric Rudolph, violent extremist bomber now serving life in the federal supermax. Tim McVeigh, violent extremist considered by many to be from the Right who was exectured by the Feds.

Compare and contrast how the Left view terrorists for its side.

jayne_cobb said...

Can't we all just agree that if the guy was a nazi he was a leftist and if he's in the KKK he's a righty.

Of course we'll all also have to ignore the fact that both groups have pretty much merged over the past half century despite having originated under people with diametrically opposed views on government.



Oh, and can people stop trying to score political points off of this or any other tragedy that was the work of a lone whacko.

Repeat after me: You can't predict crazy.

Jeremy said...

Chase said..."But John is spot on - the dumping on Israel and Jews in particular isn't from the right - it's completely on the left."

The asshole was also wearing a Confederate hat.

Would that mean he's a cross-dressing anti-Semitic racist leftist?

Jeremy said...

jayne_cobb said..."...if he's in the KKK he's a righty."

See: Wearing Confederate cap.

AlphaLiberal said...

..."Nazi's are right wing" ... .

Yes they are. In Hitler's day he was allied with industrialists and attacked labor unions and leftists.

In the modern day, Nazi's are often allied with neo-confederates. And the neo-confederates are most often found in the ranks of the Republican Party.

For example, who defends the Confederate Flag? Republicans.

AlphaLiberal said...

Jayne Cobb:

Can't we all just agree that if the guy was a nazi he was a leftist and if he's in the KKK he's a righty. .

Hell no. That's idiotic.

http://www.nsm88.org/photos/sc2005/sc2005.html

And ignorant.

TRO said...

There are thousands of Islamic radicals who have killed and who are still killing Americans and Jews worldwide. So far I count four (McVeigh, Rudolph, Tillman's killer and now this nut) who are so-called "right wing" killers.

Yet the left wants us to believe that right-wing Christians are the greater threat.

Give me a break.

Jeremy said...

This asshole and the asshole last week are both anti-government assholes.

Based on Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman and Glen Beck and other wingnuts constant harping on how the government is taking over "controlling the people" (Sarah)...I'd say that puts these two assholes way right of center.

John said...

"Yes they are. In Hitler's day he was allied with industrialists and attacked labor unions and leftists."

They attacked communists. They hated capitalism. They embraced war socialism of Imperial Germany. Mussilini's ecoomic policies were widely admired by the Roosevelt Administration. H.G.Wells called for "liberal fascism", which was basically fascist economic policy without the nationalism and racism.

Anyone who actually reads history knows what you are saying is bullshit. Read Hanna Arrendt for God's sake. Stop reading PC fairy tales and read serious history. You might learn something. You dope.

jayne_cobb said...

AL,

They favor/ed centralized control over the economy; in modern politics that is very much a leftist position.

Shanna said...

Whenever some random guy (and it's usually a guy) goes off and kills someone because they hate them for being Jewish, American, an abortion doctor, a doctor who tests on animals, or whatever...Those people just fall under the "crazy asshole" designation, which is not political. You can take any belief and take it too far, and decide that someone aught to die for it. That is what makes you crazy!

Hell, I could decide my neighbor should day because they didn't spay or neuter their pets and they should decide I should die because I did. It's as ridiculous to try to blame a political party as big as the democrats or republicans for this sort of violence as it would be to blame the dude from the Price is Right if I decided "spay and neuter your pets" was a cause worth killing for.

John said...

"Based on Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman and Glen Beck and other wingnuts constant harping on how the government is taking over "controlling the people" (Sarah)...I'd say that puts these two assholes way right of center."

So I guess in 2007 when you and your ilk were saying 10 times worse things about Bush this guy would have been left of center? Moron.

AlphaLiberal said...

Yet the left wants us to believe that right-wing Christians are the greater threat. .


No. No-one said that. You made that up.

And I don't think these killers are, actually, "Christian."

AND... "Christian" is not synonymous with "conservative."

Gawd it's especially bizarre in here today. Such delusion!

AlphaLiberal said...

Jayne:

I just posted pictures of Nazi's and KKK having a meeting together.

What more proof do you need that they are birds of a feather?

Big Mike said...

If that 1920 YOB isn't a typo, he would have been 22 in 1942, so Jeremy and Alpha are dead right, this is probably one of them there crazed veterans that Napolitano was warning us about.

John said...

You are exactly right Shannan. But you have to understand that people like Jeremy and Alpha Liberal can't accept that. It is just not satisfying for them to hate one person. They must hate everyone who disgrees with them. Blaming their political enemies for every nut job makes that easier for them.

AlphaLiberal said...

Jayne:

Here are the KKK/Nazi pictures:
http://www.nsm88.org/photos/sc2005/sc2005.html

Deny that!

MJ said...

Alpha Liberal says in part... "And, maybe a political movement that demonizes their opponents* is playing a role in helping push these people go over the edge. "

This demonstrates an astonishing ability to self-delude. Modern liberalism routinely demonizes it's opponents. Have we not just ended 8 years of visuals comparing Bush to a chimpanzee?

Then he follows up with "The wanker thinks this intentional dishonesty is a good thing."

The only intellectual dishonesty is referring to differences in outlook as "intentional dishonesty".

Sad, but hardly surprising.

jayne_cobb said...

I will say that this was a rather poor day for Rev. Wright's comments about "them Jews" to be released.

Bob Sacamano said...

Breaking - the guard shot at the museum has died from his wounds.

So, let me say it again, if von Brunn survives, he should be strapped into an electric chair and taken care of. Let justice be done.

AlphaLiberal said...

The only intellectual dishonesty is referring to differences in outlook as "intentional dishonesty". .

You are running away from my actual point and arguing with a strawman.

Krauhammer said, and celebrated, that we don't agree on one set of facts anymore. That FoxNews makes an alternate reality for the right wing to believe in.

That dishonesty is right there in black and white from a conservative thought leader.

"You can't handle the truth!"

Jeremy said...

TRO said..."Yet the left wants us to believe that right-wing Christians are the greater threat."

Here's what was actually...and it isn't anything even close to what you've said:

"Less than a month ago, Janet Napolitano, the Secretary of Homeland Security, said she wasn’t sure which was a greater threat to the US: Al Qaeda or Timothy McVeigh-style domestic terrorism."
(CNN)

She didn't say anything about "right wing" or "Christian."

John said...

"I just posted pictures of Nazi's and KKK having a meeting together.

What more proof do you need that they are birds of a feather?"

So when leftist ally themselves with radical Islamists and go to the same rallies they are birds of a feather to?

John said...

It's not just Latin American leftists who see potential in Islamism. Ken Livingstone, the Trotskyite former mayor of London, literally hugged prominent Islamist thinker Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. attorney general, visited Ayatollah Khomeini and offered his support. Noam Chomsky, the MIT professor, visited Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah and endorsed Hezbollah's keeping its arms. Ella Vogelaar, the Dutch minister for housing, neighborhoods, and integration, is so sympathetic to Islamism that one critic, the Iranian-born professor Afshin Ellian, has called her "the minister of Islamization."

Dennis Kucinich, during his first presidential campaign in 2004, quoted the Koran and roused a Muslim audience to chant "Allahu akbar" ("God is great") and he even announced, "I keep a copy of the Koran in my office." Spark, youth paper of Britain's Socialist Labour party, praised Asif Mohammed Hanif, the British suicide bomber who attacked a Tel Aviv bar, as a "hero of the revolutionary youth" who had carried out his mission "in the spirit of internationalism." Workers World, an American Communist newspaper, ran an obituary lauding Hezbollah's master terrorist, Imad Mughniyeh.

Some leftists go farther. Several — Carlos the Jackal, Roger Garaudy, Jacques Vergès, Yvonne Ridley, and H. Rap Brown — have actually converted to Islam. Others respond with exhilaration to the violence and brutality of Islamism. German composer Karlheinz Stockhausen termed 9/11 "the greatest work of art for the whole cosmos," while the late American novelist Norman Mailer called its perpetrators "brilliant."

http://www.danielpipes.org/5720/the-islamist-leftist-allied-menace

Birds of a feather, right Alpha?

Jeremy said...

jayne_cobb said..."I will say that this was a rather poor day for Rev. Wright's comments about "them Jews" to be released."

It sure was, but he and many of our wonderful Christina leaders are assholes.

Remember Robertson, Falwell and Dobson blaming 9/11, Katrina and other tragedies on gays and America losing it "Christian" ways?

Who the hell pays any attention to Wright anyway? He admits Obama hasn't spoken to him and refuses to see or talk to him.

AlphaLiberal said...

Jayne, you are curiously silent on the Nazi/KKK pictures.

If they are from opposing ideologies, why are they meeting together?

======

Jeremy:

Here's what was actually...and it isn't anything even close to what you've said: .

Yup. These wimps can't handle the actual words that we say so they have to debate strawmen of their own making.

Remember, debating your own strawman is a form of mental masturbation.

So, calling them "wankers" is actually highly accurate!

Jeremy said...

John - "So when leftist ally themselves with radical Islamists and go to the same rallies they are birds of a feather to?"

Probably.

What's your point?

ironrailsironweights said...

If he had tried to commit rape, the charge would have been Assault with a Dead Weapon.


Peter

AlphaLiberal said...

John, do you think we are at war with Islam? All one billion muslims?

AlphaLiberal said...

From the page I previosuly posted showing pictures of the Nazi-KKK confab:

Imperial Wizard Virgil Griffin (Cleveland Knights KKK) was the key organizer of this event and he made a point of his support for the National Socialist Movement. Hail the Cleveland Knights of the KKK, our ally in victory! However, the purpose of this Leadership Conference was to Unify all of the White Patriot groups, and that Solidarity was proclaimed at this event. .

Nazis are rightists.

Jeremy said...

MJ said..."This demonstrates an astonishing ability to self-delude. Modern liberalism routinely demonizes it's opponents. Have we not just ended 8 years of visuals comparing Bush to a chimpanzee?"

I think most of the criticism of Bush was directed at his lack of intellect, poor decision making, poor judgment, lies, distortions, and pure ineptitude.

The chimp thing was just for fun.

jayne_cobb said...

AL,

Apparently you never bothered to even read my original post (surprise, surprise).

I stated that they had essentially merged within the past half century (go back and read it) despite having origins which would generally put them at odds with each other.

Were you actually to have read my previous post you'd also have noticed that the tone suggested that such a distinction was not useful. That this was simply the work of a nut job.

But that would require that you actually cared about the subject at hand, which you clearly don't. Instead you're simply attempting to use this tragedy for political purposes.

You sir, are a ghoul.

John said...

"John, do you think we are at war with Islam? All one billion muslims?"

Who says that we are. But alligning yourself with suicide bombers and killers is pretty dispicable. Eric Rudolph claimed to be a Christian, does wanting him dead for his crimes mean you are at war with Christians?

Is embracing horrible killers the only way to show you are not at war with Islam? Again, if the Right is tarred by the KKK, why isn't the left tarred by their embrace of radical Islamists?

Smilin' Jack said...

Radical Islamists are right wing. Bad people are always right wing. When Gorbachev was dismantling the Soviet Union, the hard-liners who wanted to restore communism were refered to as right-wing.

John said...

"I think most of the criticism of Bush was directed at his lack of intellect, poor decision making, poor judgment, lies, distortions, and pure ineptitude."


I think you are lying sack of shit. You know that is not true. Go read any daily KOS or Atrios or DU during the Bush Administration and you will see far worse things said there than have ever been said about The Obama.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike said..."If that 1920 YOB isn't a typo, he would have been 22 in 1942, so Jeremy and Alpha are dead right, this is probably one of them there crazed veterans that Napolitano was warning us about."

So if the terrorist is old...he's really not a terrorist?

If the terrorist is old...he can't be a right wing, anti-Semitic, racist prick?

How old do you think some of the radical Islamic terrorist leaders are?

Brilliant logic.

amba said...

72 yr olds dying of autoerotic asphyxiation; 89-year-olds shooting up museums -- what are old farts coming to?? (I say this as an apprentice old fart, BTW.)

Jim said...

There's no debating that what this guy did is horrible, but since the Leftys here want to use the opportunity to make a political point let's get historical:

1) "Nazi" was a shortening of "National Socialists" - not exactly a conservative-sounding name, is it? Yeah...didn't think so. Any claim that Nazis were right-wing is the most profound kind of ignorance. When "Socialist" is part of the name, trying to claim that they're "right wing" just makes you look stupid.
2) Which side of the political aisle favors government control? That surely wouldn't be the Right, so that leaves...the Left. Which governments over the years have been the most murderous? Nazis, the Soviets, Chinese Communists spring to mind immediately. Hundreds of millions dead in the cause of Leftist politics. (As has been explained time after time, the logical end of all liberal politics necessitates a police state in which dissent must be crushed forcibly by the government.)
3) "Neocons" was a phrase originated by Leftists to mean "Jewish conservatives." Do I really have to detail all the slanders directed at "neocons" by the Left over the last 8 years? But that's not anti-semitism, right?
4) Much of the African-American political movement is explicitly anti-Semitic. (See Rev. Wright complaints about the Jews, and Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" slurs for starters.)
5) Identity politics requires the division of "good people" (those of our race/sexual orientation/gender, etc.) and "bad people" (those who aren't). By its very nature, it engenders hatred. Which side of aisle is known for identity politics again? Oh yeah...that would be the Left.
6) Just because someone agrees with some of your positions doesn't make them part of your "movement." Radical groups like the ELF, Black Panthers, etc. are integral parts of the Democratic coalition. Groups like the KKK, etc. are ostracized by the Right. So which side of the aisle is more radicalized? It's not even close: the Left wins hands down.

This is really a terrible argument for Leftists to engage in. But given the historical ignorance so often on display here, I shouldn't be surprised by the lefties here want to start it.

Lone whackos are lone whackos. Given that the blood of hundreds of millions of people are on the hands of Leftists across the globe, it's worse than hypocritical for them to try to score cheap political points on the back of this tragedy: it's dishonest and disgusting.

John said...

Also Jeremy, I will take your statement to mean it is okay to make fun of Obama's obvious lack of intelligence. Austrians speaking Austrians and the other daily signs of his total stupidity.

TRO said...

You guys are being totally disingenuous when you try to separate Christians from right-wing in this debate. You may not be saying it in the thread - I never said you were by the way - but the media, liberal blogs, and plenty of other liberals constantly use Jerry Falwell and other conservative Christian leaders as examples of people who are pushing the right towards violence.

Liberals harped on Bush's Christian faith and still harp on Palin's implying (and many times just flat out stating) that it is that faith and their vocalization of it that leads all us poor right-wingers to violence.

And now you want to say that Christianity isn't a factor in your thinking?

Well maybe not, but forgive me if I have seed of doubt.

L. E. Lee said...

Ho-Hum,

Another day and just another stupid internet "debate" that consists of "the left are just a bunch of evil morons" and "the right are just a bunch of evil morons"

Why would anyone want to waste even an ounce of energy to take part in such an inane discussion? I guess the world is just full of too many intellectually lazy people.

jayne_cobb said...

"Jayne, you are curiously silent on the Nazi/KKK pictures."


There was a 10 minute difference.

Or are you the type of person who thinks that the last person to speak automatically wins an argument? (rhetorical question

AlphaLiberal said...

Jayne, you said:

Can't we all just agree that if the guy was a nazi he was a leftist and if he's in the KKK he's a righty. .

Your words. Calling me names doesn't change your words, Jayne.

The original Nazism was also a right-wing movement; anti-immigrant, anti-union, pro-industrialist, deeply xenophobic. All traits of the right wing.

"National Socialism" in the 1930s was a contradiction in terms because Socialism at that time was an international movement. (Perhaps you've heard of the song, the "Socialist Internationale?")

Jeremy said...

John - Most of the criticism directed at G.W. was related to what I posted.

There were certainly other, less intellectual personal bombs thrown, but overall, the man was and is considered an abject failure.

He left office with an approval rating of about 27%...and it wasn't related to his appearance.

That should tell you something.

John said...

"This is really a terrible argument for Leftists to engage in. But given the historical ignorance so often on display here, I shouldn't be surprised by the lefties here want to start it."

But when you are as paranoid, maladjusted and ignorant and Jeremy and Alpha are, you just make up history as you go. They are not stable enough to ever actually learn any history or do any sober contemplation of it. For them and millions like them, history exists to prove whatever pre-existing dellusion is happening that day.

Big Mike said...

That FoxNews makes an alternate reality for the right wing to believe in.

Unless, of course, FoxNews reflects true reality and CNN and MSNBC and the despicable Dan Rather are the alternate reality that you believe in.

Jeremy said...

L. E. Lee - I kind of like that "evil" part.

Either or.

John said...

"There were certainly other, less intellectual personal bombs thrown, but overall, the man was and is considered an abject failure."


That is why they were calling him a "war criminal". That is why you and your ilk were convinced that Dick Cheney and Halliburon were responsible for the Iraq invastion. That is why 9-11 truthers were considered okay in polite company until about 2005. That is why people routinely called Republicans fascists (like they had any idea what the term means) for the entire 8 years of Bush. Just shut the fuck up and stop lying. Being stupid is one thing. But outright lies cross the line.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike said..."...the despicable Dan Rather are the alternate reality that you believe in."

Been living in a fucking cave?

Dan Rather as a point of conjecture?

AlphaLiberal said...

L.E. Lee:

Why would anyone want to waste even an ounce of energy to take part in such an inane discussion? .

A) To have a dialog: to try and talk to people other than those who agree with me.
B) To try to learn about how conservatives think (read this thread and one would conclude "very poorly" or "barely").

I guess the world is just full of too many intellectually lazy people. .

Yet here you are.

MJ said...

AlphaLiberal,

Krauthammer celebrated that we no longer have a media which uniformly employs a suffocating liberal spin.

The fact that you have to misrepresent him to make your point proves mine.

Jeremy said...

John - "That is why they were calling him a "war criminal"."

Do you read newspapers or books?

There are plenty of people all over the world, and yes, even here, that absolutely consider Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and others to be war criminals.

It's based on the invasion of a sovereign nation via skewed intelligence...and of course the 100's of thousands of dead innocent civilians.

Continuing to defend these people, after what we now know, is just right wing delusion run wild.

holdfast said...

Yes, and the domestic Islamic Terrorist down in Alabama was reading from the same hymnal as ANSWER, Code Pink and Harry Reid. Therefor they are all to be tarred with his brush. "Mainstream" leftists often march with Hezb'Allah in "solidarity" with the Palestinians, so they are all terrorists. Lefties spent years screaming about the "criminal" Bush administration - so I guess all these Muzzie Terrorists did is take them seriously. Hell, Keith Olberman practically incites murder on a daily basis.

But the big difference is, even if one were to grant that Rudolph, McVeigh and this guy in DC were at least inspired by a taken-to-crazy extreme version of right wing ideology, we denounce them and want them punished to the fullest extent of the law, while lefties embrace, coddle, defend, befriend and promote lefty-inspired killers.

John said...

Alpha

You are comically ignorant. Name one book you have actually read on the history of fascism and the 1930s? Have you ever read The Origins of Totalitarianism? Ever read Modern Times? Ever read anything. Only someone who just hasn't ever read anything can not know the similiarities between Nazism and Communism. It is fucking comical to listen to you on here. You think you are so smart when in fact you are a buffoon. If you weren't such a nasty person, I would feel sorry for you.

Jeremy said...

MJ said..."Krauthammer celebrated that we no longer have a media which uniformly employs a suffocating liberal spin."

Right.

The "evil" MSM...which, according to Dr. Strangelove Krauthammer...doesn't include Fox, the WSJ, Weekly Standard, or any of the radio hosts or blog sites that spew forth with wingnut drivel on a daily basis.

MJ said...

Jeremy believes "the chimp thing was just for fun".

Right. You think demonization of your opponents is fun. This is why liberal moral preening about the horrors of demonizing your opponents is so offensive.

L. E. Lee said...

Come on Alpha, you have to admit that this is a pretty stupid debate.

jayne_cobb said...

AL,

Apparently you never bothered to read the rest of it:

"Of course we'll all also have to ignore the fact that both groups have pretty much merged over the past half century despite having originated under people with diametrically opposed views on government.

Oh, and can people stop trying to score political points off of this or any other tragedy that was the work of a lone whacko.

Repeat after me: You can't predict crazy."




As for the Nazis and leftism:

The Nazis (the original ones) in the 30's-40's were very much leftists. They believed in a centralized economy which is clearly a view held by the modern left. They also pushed a wide array of nanny state policies which are hallmarks of the modern left.

The fact that they (neo-nazis) are now bosom buddies with a group which opposes centralized govt. doesn't change this no matter how much you wish it did.

Nazism wasn't just about race and eugenics; it was also very much about the structure of government and the economy. In regard to the latter two issues, the Nazis were socialists.

John said...

It's based on the invasion of a sovereign nation via skewed intelligence...and of course the 100's of thousands of dead innocent civilians.


Oh you mean when Clinton defied the UN Security council and bombed Serbia and terrorized the civilian population on the basis of false reports of genocide in Kosovo? That time? Yeah, I gotta admit that Clinton probably was a war criminal for that even though he was President and all.

Quayle said...

But conservatives want us to ignore violence arising from their ranks.

And liberals want us to ignre the violence arising from the "oppressed" groups they regularly defend and support.

Jim said...

Socialism = government control
Conservatism = limited government

The Nazis were Socialists first and foremost. Their first goal was the government takeover of industries that they perceived as being controlled by the Jews. The next steps were to exterminate them.

But it was government control of all the levers of power that they sought first and foremost. That's just about as anti-conservative as you can get.

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Trying to rewrite history to suit your political leanings isn't going to work: it just shows how intellectually dishonest you are.

MJ said...

Jeremy,

Now that's just pathetic. He didn't call them evil, he said they view the world through a particular political lens. It should be obvious that when you have to distort someone's comments so ridiculously to make your point, you're wrong.

Big Mike said...

Brilliant logic.

Why thank you. Coming from you that's something to be proud of.

I think most of the criticism of Bush was directed at his lack of intellect, poor decision making, poor judgment, lies, distortions, and pure ineptitude.

Except that he basically won the war in Iraq (though Obama could still lose it) and his No Child Left Behind initiative has done more for inner city Black children than anything Democrats accomplished since LBJ's Great Society. (See my 3:46 post about alternate realities.)

The chimp thing was just for fun.

Except that many of us that was hate speech of the rawest sort. You and Alpha are pure haters, Jeremy, and what you purvey is raw hatred. I can't imagine you or he are successful in real careers if all you can do is hate.

John said...

Jayne,

Forget it. Alpha is an idiot. He knows so little that it is hard to know where to even start with him. Sadly he probably went to good schools and has at least one degree. That is how dark the age we live in is. Sad. Just Sad.

Jeremy said...

A heavily criticized Department of Homeland Security Report on right-wing extremism that was released in April warned precisely of the type of violent anti-Semitic activity that occurred at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. on Wednesday.

In light of these biographical revelations, it is worth revisiting the DHS report that was deemed by conservatives to be so controversial.

In April, the Department of Homeland Security issued a draft memorandum warning that the current economic and political landscape created dangerously ripe conditions for a resurgence in radicalization and extremist recruitment.

In it, federal officials warned specifically about an upswing of anti-Semitic behavior.

"Anti-Semitic extremists attribute these losses to a deliberate conspiracy conducted by a cable of Jewish 'financial elites,'" the report read. "These 'accusatory' tactics are employed to draw new recruits into right-wing extremist groups and further radicalize those already subscribing to extremist beliefs."

When the 10-page DHS memorandum was made public, however, warnings like these largely took the back seat to charges that the department had been politically motivated in its assessments and writings. Indeed, a wide swath of voices in the conservative movement -- from Rush Limbaugh to RNC Chairman Michael Steele -- lashed out at DHS Secretary Napolitano over what they deemed an anti-Republican report.

"This is the height of insult here," Steele told Fox News. "I mean to segment out Americans who dissent from this administration, to segment out conservatives in this country who have a different philosophy or view from this administration, and labeling them as terrorists and then to call into question the service of the men and women who are right now standing on that wall defending our freedom and linking them to terrorism while you refuse to call the terrorists -- the real terrorists -- terrorists, to me it's the height of insult."
(Sam Stein)

Jeremy said...

Big Mike - "Except that he basically won the war in Iraq."

You keep sticking your foot in your mouth.

Show me any military person, or even any government official who says we've "won the war in Iraq."

Take your time.

Shanna said...

From the page I previosuly posted showing pictures of the Nazi-KKK confab:.

Some racist assholes somewhere decided they wanted to be racists together. Not shocking, but it’s not the smoking gun I think you think it is. Those people have nothing to do with the actual 1930s Nazi party in Germany, and the KKK has had many different waves, from the southern post civil war group, to the midwestern group to the civil rights era group. At this point, they’re just some leftover, has been racist jerks whose time has passed. They are pathetic and no legitimate political party will claim them as their own.

John said...

I think Alpha actually has an IQ that hits tripple digits. Jeremy in contrast combines both Alpha's ignorance with less IQ as an added bonus.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike - "You and Alpha are pure haters, Jeremy, and what you purvey is raw hatred."

What you really mean is this: I disagree with YOU so you must be hateful.

Again: Brilliant logic.

*Oh, and the term "hate" is so overused it's become almost childish.

John said...

"Show me any military person, or even any government official who says we've "won the war in Iraq."

Saddam is at the end of a rope. The country has a Democratically elected government. The Obama has promised to have all the troops home by 2012. If that is losing, it sounds pretty good. If that is not winning, what exactly would winning look like? I am sure you hate to see you know something good happen to the US but sadly despite your best efforts and hopes and prayers, we have in fact won the war.

AlphaLiberal said...

John, you're a pretty typical conservative. You engage in personal attacks because you lack the chops to address the points I made head on.

We're done.

Jeremy said...

John said..."I think Alpha actually has an IQ that hits tripple digits. Jeremy in contrast combines both Alpha's ignorance with less IQ as an added bonus."

I have a suggestion:

When blasting others for a lack of intellect...be sure you know how to spell all of the words and understand punctuation.

It makes your argument much more credible.

John said...

"You engage in personal attacks because you lack the chops to address the points I made head on."

That is why I keep reading your long detailed response to the points I made about the similiarities between Nazism and Communism. You never responded because I doubt you had ever heard of them. You spent your entire life in some bubble about how Nazis are bad and from the Right. It of course is not true. You would have known so if you had bothered to look or you were have the educated person you think you are. Like I said, Jeremy is just a stupid jerk. You actually are not stupid. You are just the victim of bad education and being around the wrong people.

Aaron said...

Completely sad. Funny that on the same day Rev. Wright reared his ugly head again, saying the "Jews" who surround Obama won't let him anywhere near him.

I am not jewish, but as you can see i have a first name that is considered "jewish" and as a result i have seen anti-semitism up close and personal. Its real and its stunning that it exists in such high levels.

And please, can someone get shot without us turning this into a political football? i mean okay, here's the ugly truth. both the very far right and the very far left are anti-semites. Would you call Rev. Wright a Righty? How about Jim Moran who blamed the iraq war on the jews? or Cindy Sheehan who did the same? She was applauded by David Duke for saying so, which i guess you call a righty.

The truth is on alot of this crap the far left and the far right meet in the middle. People like Charles Johnson mock it, calling it "moronic convergence." and to try to pretend that anti-semitism is only a left-right problem is ignoring reality.

Quayle said...

The "evil" MSM...which, according to Dr. Strangelove Krauthammer...doesn't include Fox, the WSJ, Weekly Standard, or any of the radio hosts or blog sites that spew forth with wingnut drivel on a daily basis.

I have a new name for Jeremy: Sunshine.

Sing along with me Jeremy:

Back in my younger days,
when things were going wrong
I might sulk, I might pout

Now I've learned if I just pitch in
and do what's right
Things will always work out

And if we all could spread a little sunshine
All could light a little fire
We all would be a little closer
To our heart's desire

Lord know's we've seen enough troubles already,
we've had our fill of grey skies
So put down the vinegar, take up the honey jar
You'll catch many more flies
And if we all could spread a little sunshine

All could think before we strike
We all would be a little closer
To the world we'd like

John said...

And Alpha, you are a victim of your own narrowmindness and dogmatism. You could look and learn a few things if you wanted to. It is just easier not to.

Quayle said...

Are ya singing, Jeremy?

Zachary Paul Sire said...

Anybody remember the warning about right wing extremists that was shouted down...by the right wing?

So fucking predictable. Can't a psycho just be a psycho?

Until this starts happening every day, I'm not interested. What liberals should be pressing following this incident is gun control, not how right wing fanatics are going to shoot us all.

EKatz said...

"Name one book you have actually read on the history of fascism and the 1930s? Have you ever read The Origins of Totalitarianism? Ever read Modern Times?"

Orwell would be ideal reading too, particularly as Orwell himself was a socialist (which might appeal to the more left-wing commenters here). Orwell also was honest, observant, and particularly as he grew older did not feel the need to fall into ideological lockstep with his peers.

In his articles from the volume "My Country Right or Left: 1940-1943", he documents how many left-leaning writers, artists and self-titled intellectuals made excuses for Hitler, were intrigued by Hitler and what they deemed to be Hitler's progressive domestic social policies (including a powerful government-controlled welfare system), and would often dismiss Churchill as actually being worse than Hitler.

Orwell himself was very critical of Churchill, but at least he knew a real threat to civilization when he saw it. He was frustrated that many in his circle could not.

Another observation he made specifically about the communists in Britain was that they tended to take their cues from whatever communist Russia did. When the non-aggression pact was in place, they tended not to speak out against Hitler. Only when Hitler broke the pact did they raise their voices.

traditionalguy said...

National Socialism was a name picked to confuse voters. Mien Kampf was dedicated to the resurrection of pre-Christian norse gods under which the Blood and Soil of Germany had always flourished before the Jews and the Christians interbreeding with Aryan Pychics had weakening their supernatural powers. This was a religion. A branch called Social Darwinism was respectable in America where it's leading proponents were Henry Ford and the KKK. So there has always been a big connection between KKK doctrine and anti-semitism from 1900 to present. The Georgia experience was tragic in the lynching of an innocent Jewish man from a promonent NYC family, named Leo Frank. The Governor who had commuted his death sentence was also almost lynched by a mob, but was saved by the National Guard. The men who did this were the political leaders (All Democrat of course)in Marietta, Cobb County, Ga.The terrible part of this doctrine is its power to control intelligent men's minds (See, our Cedarford).

Shanna said...

Anybody remember the warning about right wing extremists that was shouted down...by the right wing?.

The problem with that report, iirc, is that it basically said “be suspicious of vets” which is not kosher, or true. There may have been something about being suspicious of conservatives, which is a huge group.

If they had said “ Be suspicious of crazy (old) skinheads”? Nobody would have complained about that.

MJ said...

Aaron,

"The truth is on alot of this crap the far left and the far right meet in the middle."

I think of it as a circle. If we go far enough left and right we meet at the bottom.

L. E. Lee said...

Oh, great the old "the Nazis are the American left" "no, the Nazis are the American Right" debate. Do you dinks really think you are the first retards to do this intellectually insipid go around? You are twits of the lowest order.

Jeremy said...

John - Blah, blah, blah...

Maybe you can pass on the good news about how we've won the war in Iraq to the families and friends of the Americans who have died or been wounded in the last few days.

And by the way; "winning" is not the same as "won."

The next time you watch a sporting event, see if the team "winning"...always "wins."

Duh.

Big Mike said...

@Alpha, did you make any points? I know you posted a picture about the KKK and neo-Nazis getting together, but I think your point was that these guys are right-wing racists and in your alternate reality (see my 3:46 post) all Republicans are right-wing racists and therefore we support this anti-Semitic terrorist. Something like that.

I can understand why John doesn't "respond" to your comments. I'm not sure where a rational person could find a toe-hold to enter your reality. Laid out in black and white your position looks fairly simple-minded does it not? John's doing you a favor by suggesting that there are more than two digits in your IQ, and then you go and dump on him. Tsk. Tsk.

Jeremy said...

Quayle - It's evident you have way too much time on your hands.

Could you send along the CD?

ricpic said...

Many of the present day museum guards deserve to be shot. In the not so distant past museum guards were often true blue dyed in the wool bohemian/hippy types who really loved the art they were guarding. In my lost youth when I haunted museums I would often spy a guard standing enraptured before some tiny Corot in the Met. Nowadays the ethnically correct museum guards who must be hired because...well, we all know why, are totally nekulturney and an affront to the rooms they patrol.

reader_iam said...

Good Lord, ricpic.

John said...

"National Socialism was a name picked to confuse voters. Mien Kampf was dedicated to the resurrection of pre-Christian norse gods under which the Blood and Soil of Germany had always flourished before the Jews and the Christians interbreeding with Aryan Pychics had weakening their supernatural powers. This was a religion"

Absolutely it was a religion. But its economics were decidly leftist. It was also at heart a Romantic movement. It rejected modern classical liberalism and the individual. Nazism rejected the comodification of the world. It embraced a romantic view of pure race and some noble lost past era. You can see threads of this kind of thinking in modern environmentalism obsession with returning things to "pre-settlement". It is all over human thinking. In the end, both communism and nazism are two sides of the same coin. They both embrace the idea of a collective enemy (for Nazis other races for communists other classes), collective guilt of undesirables, state control of the individual, and most importantly the idea that man can create utopia (after all if that is the end, what means isn't justified). They both always end in the state coming along to kill anyone who stands in the way.

Shanna said...

Good Lord, ricpic.

Yeah, WTF?

John said...

"Maybe you can pass on the good news about how we've won the war in Iraq to the families and friends of the Americans who have died or been wounded in the last few days."

I was in the initial invastion and was on several occasions nearly killed. Many of my friends have served and several have been wounded. I have no need to listen to your faux concern for the wounded. If you cared about them, you wouldn't have been pulling for the other side and speak with so much glee over the idea that we didn't win.

reader_iam said...

At a press conference earlier this afternoon, either the director or pres of the board or whoever he was said there were something like 2,000 people in the museum at the time of the shooting today. He said that the guards (one of whom died) did their jobs, and given that this situation could have been a whole lot worse had the killer not been stopped when he was, I think they deserve a lot of credit.

Sure, you're entitled to lighten the mind with some gallows humor. And I'm entitled to say the timing of the joke might be a little off.

John said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John said...

The fact that the holocaust musuem has to have armed guards says a lot. Is there any other museum in the world with armed guards? Sad, just sad.

4:25 PM

Big Mike said...

@Jeremy, I believe that my phrasing was "basically won," and I warned that Barack obama could still lose it.

I think the analogy is being up by two goals with 3 minutes to play. Or maybe the Lakers up by 14 with 2 minutes to play and Kobe has the ball.

holdfast said...

"Show me any military person, or even any government official who says we've "won the war in Iraq."

Obviously the MSM, since ever since BHO was elected, they've stopped talking about it entirely - though they hadn't really been reporting all that much since the surge started working.

AlphaLiberal said...

Big Mike masturbatas his strawman:

I think your point was that these guys are right-wing racists and in your alternate reality (see my 3:46 post) all Republicans are right-wing racists and therefore we support this anti-Semitic terrorist. Something like that. .

No. That was not my point.

My point was in response to the claim from Jayne that Nazi's are leftists and KKK are righties. I disagreed and pointed out that they have been building alliances. I even provided photographic evidence.

If you need to put words into my mouth for an argument you can more easily do battle with, then I refer you to my point about strawmen and mental masturbation.

holdfast said...

AlphaLiberal:

"John, you're a pretty typical conservative. You engage in personal attacks because you lack the chops to address the points I made head on"

Biggest

Unintentional

Irony

EVER!

AlphaLiberal said...

"Show me any military person, or even any government official who says we've "won the war in Iraq."

On Colbert Report Genl Odierno denied that we won or could declare victory. Or words along those lines.

Shanna said...

The fact that the holocaust musuem has to have armed guards says a lot. Is there any other museum in the world with armed guards? Sad, just sad.

Don’t they all? I mean, most museums have stuff that people like to steal.

Aaron said...

More information on the dickhead killer…

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6473316.ece

And Jeremy I am calling you on this. To associate Krauthammer with Dr. Strangelove is a pretty vile display of disability bigotry.

Alpha

As for Krauthammer’s “alternate reality” comment, when I was in law school I was discussing Bill Clinton with a New Yorker friend of mine. She said she really admired how he pulled himself up by his bootstraps. I told her my personal affection died when Juanita Broderick made her accusations.

Her response: “Who?”

The fact is that the liberal media has created an alternate reality. Where Bush Sr. was amazed by an ordinary supermarket. Where Reagan was dumb. Bush Sr. was dumb. Where Bush Jr. is simultaneously dumb, but also an evil mastermind.

Indeed, clashing with either you or FLS (I forgot which one), one of you actually had the nerve to claim bush said Iraq was an “imminent threat.” He did not and in fact denied that it was.

So there are alternate realities. The one liberals live in, and just plain reality.

I mean my god, we have Evan Thomas calling Obama “like God” and Newsweek says he is better than FDR, and cooler than JFK—on the cover! Meanwhile unemployment is not only higher than Obama predicted if the stimulus was passed, it is higher than he predicted if we did nothing.

At what point do we start to wonder whether he is making it worse? It seems apparent to me that either 1) they ARE making things worse or 2) they can’t make anything like an accurate prediction about the economy, meaning they have no idea if they are making it better or worse. That being said, shouldn’t the best policy be to follow the Hippocratic oath? “First do no harm?”

Wake up. Pierce your media cocoon.

AlphaLiberal said...

Jeremey:

What you really mean is this: I disagree with YOU so you must be hateful. .

I agree wholeheartedly.

Jeremy said...

John - I appreciate your service, but to continue to defend the invasion and the aftermath...based on this insane notion that Bush "won" the war in Iraq is just plain stupid.

We shouldn't have gone in in the first place and anybody with a fucking ounce of sense knows it.

You've lost friends and others have lost family and friends...and for what?

Saddam was trapped like a rat and couldn't even leave his own country, he was secular and had absolutely no reason to allow Osama or anybody else to operate in his country, and now we have thousands of dead American soldiers, thousands of wounded soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Iraqi civilians.

So keep telling people how wonderful George W. Bush and Company were...but there aren't many out there who are buying into it anymore.

And, as for your bullshit statement that I or anybody else in America was "pulling" for the enemy...you can shove that right up your right wing ass.

John said...

"Don’t they all? I mean, most museums have stuff that people like to steal."

I have never noticed them armed. But maybe I just missed it. Most museums have pretty lax security. See the famous Gardner museum heist in Boston for an example of typical museum security. Despite what the movies show, it is pretty hard to fence a Van Gogh and there just aren't any reclusive billionaires hiring master thiefs to steal them.

Big Mike said...

@John, thank you for your service.

John said...

"John - I appreciate your service, but to continue to defend the invasion and the aftermath...based on this insane notion that Bush "won" the war in Iraq is just plain stupid"

History will show whether the invasion was worth it or not. None of my comments addressed that issue. But we did win the war. That was my point. And thank you.

Jeremy said...

Aaron said - You don't really think I came up with the Krauthammer / Strangelove thing myself...do you?

It's been used to describe him and his politics for many, many years.

Maybe if you read more?

Zachary Paul Sire said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKl2PzUBEvU

Jeremy said...

John - Right.

We "won" the war.

The people who have died in just the last few days...really didn't die.

Are you drunk or stoned?

AlphaLiberal said...

Aaron, I think your law school classmate must have been too busy hitting the books to read the papers. I heard plenty about Juanita Broderick and the rest.

And, if you don't recall, there was quite the media feeding frenzy over Bill Clinton and his penis' adventures. To claim that story was ignored is a bizarre claim.

But I see your point, I think. That the false facts are in the MSM. Well, I agree with you to some degree! See: Judith Miller.

But the partisan facts invented on Fox are beyond the pale and a routine way of reporting. It's a daily occurrence. Indeed, regular FoxNews viewers have been shown to believe false facts like Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.

Aaron said...

Btw, little green footballs has alot on that. this is Johnson at his best.

Apparently this shooter idiot is one of those people who said 1) there was no holocaust, but 2) the jews deserved one.

Sort of similar to my joking summary of the president of iran's view of the holocaust: "there has been no jewish holocaust... yet."

Sorry for the dark humor, but our world is so scary at times, you kind of have to look at the void and then laugh at it.

Ironically i learned that from early exposure to... jewish culture. Laughing off evil is a long tradition in that culture. Gee, can't imagine why.

Big Mike said...

... you can shove that right up your right wing ass.

See what I mean about hatred, Jeremy? The guy nearly got his ass shot off and all you can think of to respond with is the above.

garage mahal said...

Sure feels like the 90's all over again.

Jeremy said...

John said..."Most museums have pretty lax security."

Say what?

Shanna said...

I have never noticed them armed. But maybe I just missed it.

I really have no idea, but despite the difficulty of fencing a Van Gogh, many museums also have jewelry, etc.. that could be fenced more easily. Although I don’t remember anything like that in the holocaust museum.

I take your point that maybe they had more need, because of idiots like this old crazy guy, I just think there are probably a lot of museum’s with armed guards. Maybe they keep it on the QT, or are hanging out in a different room or are only out at night…who knows.

Aaron said...

Alpha

Now i remember. you were the idiot claiming bush said that iraq was an imminent threat.

And you lamely claimed that bush made us all think that iraq was involved in 9-11, becuase he mentioned them close together.

As i pointed out at the time, by the same logic, that means you are trying to make us believe Bush was involved in 9-11, because you are talking about the two close to each other. So by your "logic" that means you are a Truther!

*rolls eyes*

You of all people should not talk alternate realities.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike said..."See what I mean about hatred, Jeremy? The guy nearly got his ass shot off and all you can think of to respond with is the above."

First of all, I have no idea if this guy ever served anywhere. Do YOU know him personally?

Second, telling somebody to shove something up their ass doesn't connote hatred.

Third, my comment was in response to this: "If you cared about them, you wouldn't have been pulling for the other side and speak with so much glee over the idea that we didn't win."

I think right wing bullshit like that deserves a response in kind.

And, as far as I'm concerned, YOU can shove it up your ass, too.

Jack said...

Shorter Palladian:

The real victim of today's right-wing attack on American citizens is me.

Beth said...

It's depressing to see this turn into a "it's rightwing" vs "No! it's leftwing!" stupidity fest.

At the extremes, the wings meet, and meld, into incoherence.

Big Mike said...

@Jeremy, you really need to go read Bob Woodward's book Plan of Attack. George Bush had the Director of Central Intelligence assuring him that the case for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was a "slam dunk." That case was prepared by left-wing heroine Valerie Plame (you can get a copy of her memoir and verify it).

AlphaLiberal said...

Shep Smith of FoxNews on DHS study and rightwing terror:

"It was a warning to us all, and it appears now they were right"

Yup.
----------------

Aaron, to my point:

"Fox News Falsely Asserted Obama Claimed "There Is No More Terrorism"

Fox News & Obama As The Muslim Manchurian Candidate

O'Reilly falsely claimed he didn't call Tiller "Dr. Killer"

Fox's Angle reports criticism of public plan, but not defense



More at...
http://mediamatters.org/topic/onlyonfox/

Beth said...

Stephen Tyrone Johns, RIP.

May God bless him.

Jim said...

Let's see:

1) Saddam was sponsoring terrorism - paying Palestinians to kill Israelis.
2) The sanctions regime was broken as the Oil for Food scandal readily illustrates.
3) He was shooting at our boys every day - both in violation of the UN terms which saved his life in the first Gulf War and putting our boys in danger.
4) He was cooperating with his fellow Baathists in Syria to sponsor Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists.
5) He was committing genocide against Shiites and Kurds.
6) He was an obstacle to a greater Middle East peace process.

..and so on..

The fantasy that Leftists want to perpetuate is that Saddam was little old harmless guy who never did no harm to nobody, and that we just up and decided for no good reason to invade some innocent guy's country is laughable. It's also historically ignorant: but that's par for the course for the Leftists here who are nothing if not consistent in their desire to either rewrite or outright ignore history.

There is a constant fascination with the "WMD" issue, but the fact remains that it was never a primary argument for invading Iraq. It was *AN* argument, but not the primary one nor was it by any means the *ONLY* one.

Saddam never gave up his ambitions to invade his neighbors or to commit terror acts against the US or our allies. The nature of pre-emptive war is that you get to him before he has the chance to act on them: in other words, before it's too late.

Now the Leftists want to rewrite history and claim that since we got to him before he got to us that somehow he never had any intentions to do us harm. That is laughably ridiculous, and those who would assert such a thing are too.

AlphaLiberal said...

Beth:

At the extremes, the wings meet, and meld, into incoherence. .

Uh huh. So a movement is morphing into violence and we should keep a blind eye?

And do statements like this make you feel morally superior?

Beth said...

Aaron, I see you made the point about "moronic covergence" at 4:10 - I'm with you.

I also used to really hate Little Green Footballs, and still have little use for its commenters, but Charles Johnson is a reasonable, smart fellow.

Beth said...

And do statements like this make you feel morally superior?

To whom? To people who take up guns, out of extremism? Oh, yes. I'm quite superior, and so are you, Alpha.

There's not a single movement, that's what you are missing. There's a host of overlapping extremists. Some are right wing, but some cross over into other, "wingless" realms.

For instance, people want to lump all of feminism into "left wing" but in doing that they ignore that radical feminism is inherently conservative, even reactionary. That's why radical feminists jumped into bed with right-wing fundamentalists in the anti-porn movement of the 1980s. Nazis are "socialists" in some sense, but they're not left wing. Yet, there are left-wing anti-semites with current day Nazis and White Power people overlap. Populism is possibly a better label.

Law enforcement, in addressing extremist violence, is, I hope, looking across the spectrums and at behaviors, not just belief systems.

Jeremy said...

Jim - "The fantasy that Leftists want to perpetuate is that Saddam was little old harmless guy who never did no harm to nobody, and that we just up and decided for no good reason to invade some innocent guy's country is laughable."

That's a blatant lie and you know it.

You're just regurgitating the same bullshit we've been hearing for the last 6 years from every right wing radio host, conservative politician and the entire Bush administration.

Only the wingnuts still buy into any of it.

AlphaLiberal said...

The fantasy that Leftists want to perpetuate is that Saddam was little old harmless guy ... .

Oh, bullshit! What a typical lie. An "alternate reality," "if you will." Not a shred of truth.

Conservatives were supporting and courting Saddam when he was gassing his own people. Liberals were decrying Saddam's gross violation of human rights back in real time as it happened.

Roger J. said...

Beth, ZPS, Lee and others have, in my view, hit the nail on the head--the shooter was a psycho. Ideology, of whatever "wing," was not the motivator--it was the demons inside their heads. There are some genuinely sick people among us who seek to do us harm--fortunately, there does not appear to be enough of them to destroy our system of government. It is always a tragedy when innocents die, but by an large, we are for the most part a functioning polity and can rise above these tragedies.

Big Mike said...

@Beth, sorry.

traditionalguy said...

John...I agree that National Socialism had facist State Control over all businesses they wanted to control. But their focus was not their business model, but was the supernaturally empowered New Cesar to whom all must pledge personal loyalty. Adolph claimed to be a religious leader embodying god in his person...an Anti ( read "substitute") messiah figure. Hitler based all this on Egyptian Magical Traditions. (See, Blavatski) But the real god raised up his Moses figure in George T. Patton with his Rod called the Third Army.

Kirk Parker said...

FLS,

"The most prominent pro-gun Democrat still alive is John Dingell."

Sure, the most prominent of them is quite old and has been in DC forever. But your statement also makes it sound like they are a dying breed, when in fact lots of the newer Democrats are pro-gun. Consider, for just one example, that the National Parks carry amendment passed (as an amendment) with large majorities (veto-proof, even, iirc.) That's a lot of D's voting Yes on a pro-gun issue.

Beth said...

And when I say this left vs. right wing accuse-fest is depressing, I mean the vapid, personalized comments in this thread. I certainly want DHS to be looking at extremists with plans for violence, no matter what wing.

AlphaLiberal said...

Beth:
There's not a single movement, that's what you are missing. .

Know what's funny? Or, "funny"?

I started typing words to that effect several times in this thread. But then I saw some fresh bile I felt compelled to knock down.

Let me say it clearly:

I do not think these killers represent the great majority of American conservatives. Not by a long stretch.

One would hope that goes without saying, but...

AlphaLiberal said...

traditionalguy, good comments on A Hitler.

Jim said...

To both Jeremy and Alpha -

It's not "bullshit." Jeremy essentially made that exact point when he was arguing with John about the Iraq War.

"Saddam was trapped like a rat and couldn't even leave his own country, he was secular and had absolutely no reason to allow Osama or anybody else to operate in his country..."

Yeah...Jeremy wasn't saying that Saddam wasn't dangerous at all. I just made up the quote that I cut and pasted from his post.

You guys really need to get your stories straight. I said Leftists claimed that Saddam wasn't a danger. Jeremy claimed exactly that. And then you two claim that NOONE says that.

LOLOLOL

You two are utterly beclowning yourselves.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike - If you really read Plan of Attack you also must know that the Bush administration only heard and acted upon what they WANTED to hear.

Cheney and Rummy had been itching to go into Iraq for many years and the 9/11 attack gave them their opening.

The "slam dunk" comment has been disputed by many and if you're trying to say we went into Iraq because of one statement via Tenet, you're crazy.

By Richard Willing, USA TODAY

Former CIA director George Tenet says in an interview to be aired Sunday that the Bush administration made him the scapegoat for the Iraq invasion by twisting his words to make it seem he was certain Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

Tenet says in a 60 Minutes interview that after no weapons were found, the administration planted stories that the United States invaded Iraq based on the erroneous intelligence Tenet provided.

"And the hardest part of all this has been just listening to this for almost three years, listening to the vice president go on Meet the Press on the fifth year (anniversary) of 9/11 and say, 'Well, George Tenet said slam dunk,' " Tenet says. "As if he needed me to say 'slam dunk' to go to war with Iraq."

Leaking the "slam dunk" quote, Tenet says, was the "most despicable thing that ever happened to me."

John said earlier that history will reveal who was right or wrong, and I agree.

Bush and company will be revealed for what they were: Liars and inept.

Jeremy said...

Big Mike - Want to read a better book about Iraq?

Read "Fiasco" by Thomas E. Ricks

It will make you sick.

bagoh20 said...

I've seen liberals and conservatives talking, working together, even reading the same books. Obviously, they are co-conspirators on all the evil on earth past, present and future.

Me? I live on a higher plain, you can't even see me. There are many like me. We are watching, waiting, judging. Did you know Adam is gay?

Beth said...

This is just a good time to recognize that the internet is a wonderful place. Yes, even with all this crap.

It's ugly, but to some degree, perhaps this is how we mourn, and deal with the shock of such an event.

We may appear to be on different sides, and we're slinging words and more words, till we're all sick and tired and following digressions and tangents and returning to comfortable hostilities - you're a jerk! No, you!

And we're slinging only words.

Jeremy said...

Jim - Regarding my comment:

"Saddam was trapped like a rat and couldn't even leave his own country, he was secular and had absolutely no reason to allow Osama or anybody else to operate in his country..."

Starting at the conclusion of the Persian Gulf War, we held Saddam in check for ten years, spent about 5 billion dollars and didn't lose a single American soldier's life in Iraq.

If it was so important to take out Saddam...why didn't we do it after Kuwait? Why did Rummy, Cheney and Powell advise Bush Sr. to leave Saddam where he was and to move on?

Oh, and can I assume you don't remember Rummy shaking hands with Saddam...when he was OUR dictator puppet?

Jim said...

Yeah...Tenet wasn't covering his own ass or anything. We should believe his characterization of what happened because why?

And notice very carefully that Tenet DOESN'T DENY HE SAID IT. In fact, he admits he said by claiming that the "leak" of him having said was damaging to his reputation.

All Tenet is saying "hey it's not REALLY my fault. Yeah I said it, but that's not important."

Once again Jeremy, you're reading to see what you want to see: not what was actually there. Your own quote proves that Tenet himself admits he said it was a slam dunk.

Fool. Care to cut and paste some more quotes that show you haven't a clue what you're talking about?

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