June 17, 2009

"A government not respecting people's vote has no religious or political legitimacy."

Said Iran's senior cleric Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri.
"No one in their right mind can believe" the official results from Friday's contest."... Montazeri accused the regime of handling Mousavi's charges of fraud and the massive protests of his backers "in the worst way possible."

..."I ask the police and army personals (personnel) not to 'sell their religion,' and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before God."

65 comments:

Jason (the commenter) said...

A government that can't get its own citizens to believe vote results certainly has no legitimacy.

I don't car what Obama says about either leader being the same because they have almost the same policy positions (we might as well have had Bush for four more years if that were the case). The important thing is that Iran realizes its closed system has created problems and that those problems need to be addressed.

traditionalguy said...

The beauty of this new fight within Iran is that the Clerics seem to be split between the supporters of the pro-nazi Military dictatorship seeking conquest by war and the supporters of a pro-Islamic Faith that only wants a normal life to continue.

L. E. Lee said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American. The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.

SteveR said...

..."I ask the police and army personals (personnel) not to 'sell their religion,' and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before God."

Too bad so many people seem to think they are receiving orders from God.

Harsh Pencil said...

L. E. Lee,

I thought liberals didn't believe in preemption, as in, oh I don't know, responding to comments that haven't actually been, like, written.

Harsh Pencil said...

Also,

Bad link (at least for me).

Bruce Hayden said...

This really gets down to the feud in Shi'a Islam between Ayatollahs Khomeini and Sistani. Khomeini's descendants still rule in Iran, while Sistani's are strong in Iraq. A big part of the dispute is the place of the clergy in Shi'a Islam. Khomeini and his spiritual descendants would have them rule in the temporal world, while Sistani and his followers would have them lead spiritually, but not rule temporally. Rather, he has given his support to the Iraqi democracy.

The problem for the ruling clergy in Iran is that Ayatollah Sistani (a native Iranian) has been gaining adherents back in Iran at a pretty good rate, esp. after the institution of democracy in Iraq. The Iraqi democracy may not be the best, and it may have a lot of flaws, but it is theirs, and it looks a lot better right now to many Iranians than the rule of their clergy does.

L. E. Lee said...

They have been written, over and over, in previous threads.

(Bad link for me also.)

Joseph said...

link?

AJ Lynch said...

Is he talking about the Minnesota Senate election?

Aaron said...

Sheesh, its an embarrassment that this cleric is more forceful on the subject of democracy than most of our leaders.

But seriously, that is a great statement from him. I mean he even adopted that nuremberg rule: you can't plead that you were just following orders. Awesome on every level. I am frankly taken aback at just how good it is.

ark said...

I imagine that he will die under mysterious circumstances in the next few days.

rocketeer67 said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American. The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.

George W. Bush said this better, and more often. The bigots on the left never believed him.

traditionalguy said...

L E Lee...As a suspected bigot on nearly everything, let me reply to you. The Iranian people are lovely and intelligent people who are well within their rights to oppose American policies. The current Iranian military dictatorship is the fly in the ointment. The Fuhrer Ah-mad-inegad's plans to kill off Iran's neighbors and steal their stuff, like Saddam did to Kuwait, is the problem. Hurray for the Iranian people. Someone alert Obama. Its 3:00 AM and the twitters coming in from the lovely Iranian people are only going into Obama's voicemail.

Eric said...

I imagine that he will die under mysterious circumstances in the next few days.

Maybe. Or it might be a sign the mullahs have decided to throw Dinnerjacket to the wolves.

Aaron said...

Ann, your link is broken.

Eric said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American.

This is a childish view of the region. I thought we were past the cultural jingoism that pretends everyone wants what Americans want.

Arturius said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American.


They do? I must have missed the outpouring of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness movements in the Middle East.

The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.

Seems like a lot of people here like to throw out the bigot tag quite a bit. I don't think the term means what you think it does.

Salamandyr said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American. The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.

Do you have something or someone in mind with this or are you just an asshole?

El Presidente said...

Here is the Article:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/408/story/784276.html

Interesting that Prof. Althouse can get 19 comments on a headline and a null link.

Invisible Man said...

I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American. The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.

I think that this might be in reference to the wing-nuts who were advocating for bombing the ever living crap out of countries like Iran as if all of the people were terrorists. A few of those people most definitely comment on this blog.

Darcy said...

Bruce Hayden: That sounds quite a bit like the vision that Bush had in terms of a post-Saddam Iraq helping to spread democracy may have been right?

LarsPorsena said...

"I think that this might be in reference to the wing-nuts who were advocating for bombing the ever living crap out of countries like Iran as if all of the people were terrorists"

Got a cite? Link?

BJM said...


Interesting that Prof. Althouse can get 19 comments on a headline and a null link.


We religion & gun clingers, misogynists, bigots & all-purpose wingnuts that some feel comprise Althouse's commenters thank you.

EnigmatiCore said...

"most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American"

This sounds like what George W. Bush said.

And while it is a warm and fuzzy sentiment, what evidence is there to support it, other than a belief along the lines of "I just know in my heart of hears that anyone barren of prejudice would just *know* this to be true, because people are people regardless of race, creed, or what they have been taught their entire lives"?

For example, a Zogby poll found that "In the countries where the poll took place, (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates), a majority of citizens said Shari'a law should be applied to businesses". I doubt this matches the hopes and desires of the average American. An inordinately high percentage of the Middle East seems to respond positively to their leaders calling for the annihilation of Israel. Outside of the guy who just shot up the Holocaust Museum, that does not strike me as the way the average American thinks.

I get where you are coming from- you want people to see others as people so as to make the world a more humane place, and to help free the world from the ills of prejudice. It would be nice. I'd like that kind of world better.

Unfortunately, I don't think that most people in Iran and the Middle East, or just about most places in the world for that matter, share that desire. If they do, they have a very odd way of showing it.

Methadras said...

A theocratic fracture in Iran? Say it ain't so. I think this guy will find himself taken a dirt nap shortly.

Jason (the commenter) said...

El Presidente : Interesting that Prof. Althouse can get 19 comments on a headline and a null link.

She can get over a hundred with just a picture of a dead tree; she's that good!

Original Mike said...

Darcy beat me to it.

It will be ironic if Bush ends up liberating both Iraq and Iran.

Roger J. said...

I gotta tell you--I simply have no idea what is going on in Iran--The articles in the blogosphere are all over the place, but as nearly as I can tell, within Tehran among the more educated and younger Persians, Achmedinejad is not popular and the other dude is. Outside of Tehran, where the Persians are far more fundamentalist, its the other way around. Given my experience, most journalists don't get too far outside the amenities so its likely we are not getting a very balanced view and heaven knows I doubt many jouralists speak Farsi. And if anyone knows how Iran is run, I would appreciate some explanation!

Finally, the guy claiming fraud doesnt look all that savory to me--I think he was one of the folks who founded Hizbollah in the early 1980s.

What I am suspecting is that there just isnt a lot of solid information upon which to act--I don't say that to excuse Obama's lame remarks the other day; but the events in Iran I fear are not very clear to our policy makers. Extreme caution might be warranted.

garage mahal said...

Unfortunately, I don't think that most people in Iran and the Middle East, or just about most places in the world for that matter, share that desire. If they do, they have a very odd way of showing it..

Then what about that whole sprinkling of freedom seeds idea that we starting sowing in Iraq?

Lem said...

If Mahmud falls it would be a blow to Obama’s foreign policy.

Think about it. It would mean the easing of pressure on Iran to abandon their nuke aspirations, ostensibly giving them more time to complete the bomb. That in turn would make it harder for Israel to continue just sitting by. Israel would be forced to act.

If we don’t want Iran to get the bomb
Let Mahmud stay on.

Arturius said...

Then what about that whole sprinkling of freedom seeds idea that we starting sowing in Iraq?


Seeds don't generally grow well in a desert ;-)

I think anyone living in a secular or theocratic dictatorship who wants freedom usually finds it in a Western nation.

Lem said...

Poor Mahmud is getting swift voted ;)

He stole the election fare and square.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Then what about that whole sprinkling of freedom seeds idea that we starting sowing in Iraq?"

What about it?

Darcy said...

LOL, Lem.

Lem said...

Judge Pariente said they were "not going to make the same mistake again".

The Florida Supremes have ordered a nation wide manual recount.

It's going to take Iran months to find out who won.

Invisible Man said...

Got a cite? Link?

Seven Machos said...
I have a complex stand. I'm not against bombing Iran. Iran to me is like Barzini in The Godfather. And Saddam was a pimp, like Bruno Tattaglia. We are in a Cold War with Iran. Bombing is an option that must remain on the table and viable on a moment's notice.

Revenant said...
If we just bomb Iran enough, they'll love us forever and never say anything mean about us again.

Others have pointed out examples of hostile nations that became friendly after we bombed the bejesus out of them.


Here's a few

Lem said...

Many irregularities at the polls in Iran.

You know how they dip the finger in ink as a sign they voted so they cant vote again?

Well, guess who was spotted near a polling place.
Shamwow guy. The very same. Yes sir.

Aaron said...

Sal

If you don't think alot of the left has broken faith with the declaration of independance recently, you are not paying attention. Every time i brought it up vis-a-vis iraq, the old claims came out, like "its an american legal document, doesn't apply to anyone else" or freedom is not compatable with their culture, and so on. there is a faction in the left and probably on the far right too, that just doesn't think middle easterners are capable of living in freedom and democracy.

Hell, our current president made the historically ignorant argument that democracy can't be forced down anyone's throat. my stock response to that bit of ahistorical silliness is to say "tell that to germany and japan." Especially in the case of Japan, we said more or less, "sign this constitution or else." We had them looking down the barrel of an A-bomb, which is hardly uncoerced consent. but some half a century later they are a fully decent and reformed country and we are flirting with the idea of using a nuclear japan as a counter balance to north korea.

I find it stunning that our president would say such nonsense.

Arturius said...

Others have pointed out examples of hostile nations that became friendly after we bombed the bejesus out of them.


Well it is no accident that Germany and Japan are steady allies in addition to ironically, two of the most pacifist nations which were formerly the most militiristic.

I would not worry about bombing Iran. If Bush wasn't up to the job you can rest assured Obama won't.

Aaron said...

Lem

that is both deeply wrong and very funny.

shamwow guy...

Of course he wouldn't be caught anywhere near iran given his tendency to get in fistfights with prostitutes. (True story, though it was not clear whether it was self-defense. or whether he used the sham wow to mop up his blood.)

Lem said...

OMG

They used the Votomatic machines.

Salamandyr said...

Aaron,

LE Lee wasn't criticizing the Left in his remarks about the Declaration of Independence, but the people who have been in favor of freedom for Iraq and Iran.

But my response wasn't really to that. My response was a reaction to a passive aggressive attack on an argument nobody was making by someone I presume is old enough to know better, even if he is immature enough to do it anyway.

EnigmatiCore said...

Invisible Man, I cannot help but notice that the two comments you cite did not "advocat[e] for bombing the ever living crap out of countries like Iran as if all of the people were terrorists".

Nor did you provide links so people could judge the context themselves, if necessary.

garage mahal said...

What about it?.

Well if people in Iran and the ME don't share our same desire for the same style of democracy what the hell is the point of spending trillions and the blood of Americans trying??

LarsPorsena said...

"like Barzini in The Godfather. And Saddam was a pimp, like Bruno Tattaglia. We are in a Cold War with Iran. Bombing is an option that must remain on the table and viable on a moment's notice."

Is this in relation to their nuke program or just hitting downtown Tehran at rush hour for fun?

Has BO positively renounced the use of force against Iran re nukes?
If not how is he different from the above statment.

PatCA said...

For a minute there, I thought your headline was Obama finally speaking out.

No luck.

TitusIsNotHornytoday said...

did anyone catch the video of the David lettermen protest?

Yikes.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Well if people in Iran and the ME don't share our same desire for the same style of democracy what the hell is the point of spending trillions and the blood of Americans trying??"

Germans seemed to have an affinity for Fascism at one point. Maybe we should have not bothered trying to change that? Is that your argument?

Just poking holes in the point you are trying to make. I, for one, thought the idea of trying to bring Democracy to the region was a nice idea but not a reason to go to war.

Elliott A said...

Titus- Are you under the weather?

Frodo Potter said...

F. E. Lee said “I realize that the anti-Islamic bigots who post to Althouse will not get this but most people in Iran and the middle east have the same aspirations and desires as your average American. The bigots who post to this site should read the Declaration of Independence and try to have a little faith in it.”

This would be a little more accurate: “Many people in Iran and most of the protesters in Iran, but few in the Middle East in general have the same aspirations and desires as your average American.”

You can call me an anti-Islamic bigot, but unlike you, I have some concept of the difference between Persians and Arabs. Persia has a long and storied history (close to 3,000 years). In general, I believe the Iranians do want democracy and they are capable of self-government. I am rooting for them. I am not rooting for the Palestinians and Arabs brought in by Achmadinejad to beat university students to death (some in their dorm rooms) and to murder 10 year-old girls.

I am not anti-Islamic; I *am* anti-Saudi and anti-Palestinian. Sorry, deal with it.

garage mahal said...

I am not rooting for the Palestinians and Arabs brought in by Achmadinejad to beat university students to death (some in their dorm rooms) and to murder 10 year-old girls..

Palestinians can't even leave to escape Israel bombing runs. They can't travel anywhere without Israel's say so. I doubt they are being shipped into Iran to beat university students in Iran, unless Israel is giving consent to it.

Frodo Potter said...

garage, check out Andrew Sullivan "Live Tweeting the Revolution-Day 5," posted at 10:16 p.m. on June 17.

Jason said...

Palestinians can escape Israeli bombing runs ANY TIME they choose. It's really not hard.

If they want to escape Israeli bombers, they should cease being bombers themselves.

Until then, spare me the violin music.

garage mahal said...

If they want to escape Israeli bombers, they should cease being bombers themselves.

What about Palestinians that aren't bombers themselves? What do they do.

LarsPorsena said...

"What about Palestinians that aren't bombers themselves? What do they d0"

Live under the same threat that Israeli citizens do. But since the Israeli armed forces do not randomly rocket the Palestinian population they are somewhat safer.
Hamas doesn't target military targets. To their mind any Jew at a restaurant, bus station, or market is a target. Hamas lacking in any sense of honor, likes to use mosques, schools, apartment complexes as launching positions for rocket and mortar attacks on the general Jewish population.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Palestinians can't even leave to escape Israel bombing runs.


Indeed garage. Israel just do bombing runs on the po Palestinians like you and I go to the grocery store. Has absolutely nothing to do with them self detonating themselves in Israeli markets.

They can't travel anywhere without Israel's say so

Within Israel yes which based upon their willingness to blow themselves up taking as many Jews with them as possible I can't say I blame them. I'm sure Israel would be fine with the Palestinians travellng to Egypt or Jordan or Syria but guess what, those three brother Arab nations don't want them either.

Go figure

Ofc. Krupke said...

Palestinians can't even leave to escape Israel bombing runs. They can't travel anywhere without Israel's say so.

There are Palestinian populations in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and even the United States that would beg to differ.

EnigmatiCore said...

"What about Palestinians that aren't bombers themselves? What do they do."

Get the hell out of Dodge, or perhaps work with their like-minded Palestinians to stop the bombers rather than give them cover and/or assistance.

Was that supposed to be a difficult question to answer?

Hoosier Daddy said...

There are Palestinian populations in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and even the United States that would beg to differ.


Didd't the Kuwaitis ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from Kuwait when they were rooting for Saddam?

garage mahal said...

Get the hell out of Dodge, or perhaps work with their like-minded Palestinians to stop the bombers rather than give them cover and/or assistance.

Was that supposed to be a difficult question to answer?
.

Gaza is an open air prison. The only travel within cities inside the territories is through Israeli checkpoints, hundreds of them, subject to arbitrary closing. So say if you were a Palestinian and you had a sick child and you needed to access a hospital in another city and you were detained at a checkpoint for hours, or it was closed, and your child dies in that ambulance how would you feel? People die at these checkpoints all the time.

EnigmatiCore said...

That is kind of what happens when your population has been basically conducting warfare against a neighbor that is significantly more powerful.

The Palestinians would do better to lay down their arms and try to build better lives for themselves. I am sure that Israel would rather spend their time and resources on other matters than keeping Gaza under a lockdown.

Hoosier Daddy said...

So say if you were a Palestinian and you had a sick child and you needed to access a hospital in another city and you were detained at a checkpoint for hours, or it was closed, and your child dies in that ambulance how would you feel?


Pissed off at Arafat who told Israel to fuck off after being offered 95% of a free state and then setting off a 1 1/2 year Intifada.

Then again garage, Israel left Gaza only to watch Fatah and Hamas go after each other in the streets. Hell I'd restrict their movement too. Just like Egypt does.

Ofc. Krupke said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ofc. Krupke said...

Didd't the Kuwaitis ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from Kuwait when they were rooting for Saddam?

Oops, thank you Hoosier, I had forgotten that. Still, there continues to be a small Palestinian community in Kuwait, though about 90% of them were expelled.