May 19, 2009

The GOP has lost people in every demographic group except...

... frequent churchgoers.

149 comments:

Hoosier Daddy said...

Maybe because in the last 8 years they became indistinguishable from the Democrats? At least in terms of spending money the nation doesn't have.

Then again I'm not sure I really buy that poll. Considering Obama is the greatest orator since Cicero and was bringing hope and change on a galactic scale after 8 years of the Bushitler regime, I was expecting a Reaganesque landslide. Instead, against one of the weakest GOP candidates in memory, The Empty Suit won by a lesser margin than Bush 41 over Dukakis.

I highly doubt conservatives have left to become mindless liberals. Most likely waiting for a leader much like the libs did when all they had were Gore and Kerry.

ricpic said...

When today's middle-aged turn into tomorrow's geezers will they too become Republican hate mongers? It's the natural order. ;^)

Invisible Man said...

Maybe because in the last 8 years they became indistinguishable from the Democrats? At least in terms of spending money the nation doesn't have. Yes, of course that's it. It was just the spending that got Republicans in trouble. People don't care about war's of choice, slavish devotion to social conservatives, cronyism, incompetence and being in the pocket of the Fortune 500. You keep banging that spending meme, Hoosier Daddy. You'll be back in power before you know it.

ricpic said...

"...cronyism, incompetence and being in the pocket of the Fortune 500."

Last time I looked Paulson was a Democrat.

Bob W. said...

Invisible, slavish devotion to interest groups, cronyism, incompetence and being in the pocket of the Fortune 500 (or some large nasdaq traded firms) are bipartisan traits; for every big oil republican is a democrat building a huge airport named after himself with taxpayers money; for every right winger in the pocket of some lobbyist is an idealistic liberal building a vacation estate in Ireland using the savings generated from sweet mortgage deals based on relationship with home loan ceo's.

Sure, the bumbs all got thrown out of DC, and good riddance to them. But sooner or later, the bumbs will get thrown out again. Only this time, the bumbs will be wealthy Democrats.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Maybe because in the last 8 years they became indistinguishable from the Democrats?

Bingo. The Republicans have no focus and have become Democrat-lite.

The poll doesn't say WHY people have declined to identify themselves as Republican. Like Hoosier, I doubt that those who have declined are now starry eyed liberals.

So in essence this poll tells us not much.

When the poor phone jockeys from the Rep party call our house, my husband gives them an ear full.

"Get rid of the &*#$@& RINOS. Get some leaders who will do the right thing and make OUR positions clear on TV and in press conferences. Make those assholes who vote with the Democrats notorious. Quit being so wishy washy and take some positions that represent US!!!!instead of just putting money into your own pockets you bunch of turncoat theives. Get some balls and man up or you will never get another *@#$#@ing dime from me!!!!"

And a bunch of other stuff that I can't type or my keyboard will melt.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Hopefully things will get better for the Republicans now that Bush is gone. He was a terrible president. But of course the Republicans in Congress did little to distinguish themselves either.

To win people back the Republicans are going to have to do more than just have a black person as their Chairman. (That decision has already been a minor disaster in itself.)

Hoosier Daddy said...

People don't care about war's of choice,.

Actually they didn't as the economy, not the war of choice, was the top issue on the voter's minds. Iraq was somewhere south of 10 in the top ten. In fact I don't see the Obamabots screaming to GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!! Where's Cindy?

slavish devotion to social conservatives,.

As opposed to slavish devotion to social liberals?

cronyism, incompetence and being in the pocket of the Fortune 500..

I had not idea Paulson was a conservative Republican. And no, there's no cronyism in the Democrat party and they're very competent. Just look at how well Barny Fwank handled Fannie Freddie
when he said everything was just wonderful.

You keep banging that spending meme, Hoosier Daddy. You'll be back in power before you know it..

It will be right around the time no one shows up for the next Treasury auction and Obama is left trying to figure out how to pay for more welfare.

traditionalguy said...

The revenge of the Atheists will be the Scientific control of the life/death of all inconvenient life forms (only chance accidents anyway), by the Philosopher Kings of Ecology. Their latest proud propaganda piece is a TV Documentary showing the Earth after all human life is at last extinct, allowing the planet to heal itself and become a natural paradise without the descendants of men ruining it.The Cap outlawing human's free use of energy power from their natural resources they own is just the beginning step to reach that goal.But what a great Smile.Obama is warm and loving and not at all like Chavez.

tim maguire said...

All true, all true. We are still a center right country but the electorate was not given a center right choice. Republicans need to clean house and now is the time to do it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

To win people back the Republicans are going to have to do more than just have a black person as their Chairman..

Well if the Democrats can convince enough people that they can provide cradle to grave support at the expense of the top 1% then the GOP will probably be destined for the ash heap.

The problem is that they can't and at least 53% of the electorate is too dumb to realize it. Actually the best way for the GOP to gain power is give Obama everything he asks for. Cap and Trade, new CAFE standards, more handouts for everyone. The bill will come due and when the progressive soccer mom's find out that no one makes a 42mpg SUV to haul her kids to around or that cap and trade means higher utility bills then we'll see how popular the Dems are.

Heh...just wait till the inflation kicks in. Good times ahead kids.

Eric said...

The GOP may have lost people in every group but frequent churchgoers, so what does it say that Democrats and Republicans are now tied in party affiliation?

And yes, Invisible Man, it was the spending. The "Bushitler is teh WORST PRESIDENT EVER !!ELEVENTY!!" crowd was never really a big Republican demographic.

Salamandyr said...

Actually the best way for the GOP to gain power is give Obama everything he asks for.Hoosier, everything will play out exactly how you predicted it, except that the Democratic Party will not shoulder the blame for it.

No, their solutions will create new problems, and they'll come up with new solutions for those problems, which will of course create new problems. They're the crisis management party and the fact that their "management" only exacerbates the problems is a feature, not a bug in their solutions.

And since the debate, for whatever reason always seems to be framed in ways favorable to the "crisis management" party, they'll never have to answer for how they screwed things up in the first place.

The only way Republicans are going to win is by making a bold, consistent stand against their "solutions". Don't be bi-partisan, don't let the Democrats try to share blame. And when you finally do get back in power, try to live up to the principles that got you there.

Eric said...

Instead, against one of the weakest GOP candidates in memory, The Empty Suit won by a lesser margin than Bush 41 over Dukakis.

But the presidency doesn't matter nearly as much as Congress, where the real power shift occurred. I figure the Republicans have a better than even chance of taking back the House in 2010, and without the bug-eyed mafia princess in the spoeaker's chair Obama's agenda will bog down.

Jen said...

Oh, boy.

Hoosier Daddy said, "I highly doubt conservatives have left to become mindless liberals." etc. etc.

What if. . . .and this is a big "what if" people are sick of extremes and are becoming more moderate?

Anecdotally I can say I see many Republicans disgusted with the religious fanaticism associated with the right.

If the Grand Old Party wants some credibility back, they are going to have to focus less on spin, more on serious finance, and disassociate themselves from the evangelicals.

Pogo said...

Independent: 37%
More than Democrats.

Sounds like a new party is needed.

Eric said...

If the Grand Old Party wants some credibility back, they are going to have to focus less on spin, more on serious finance, and disassociate themselves from the evangelicals.

Eh what? Concerns over serious finance from a member of the trillion dollar deficit party? Where were you when porkulus passed?

And the GOP will be just fine with the Evangelicals. What they need to do is get back some cred on spending. Fortunately for the GOP, the Democrats are once again proving once again that, no matter how bad the Republicans are on spending, the Democrats will always be worse. Voters tend to forget that over time and need a few election cycles to remember.

Bob Sacamano said...

That's good! Because, after Obama's done we'll all be church goers. Someone's gotta pray for God to save us from this shmuck.

MadisonMan said...

And when you finally do get back in power, try to live up to the principles that got you there.

You are talking about principles in the same breath as politicians.

That is a waste of breath.

AJ Lynch said...

Will these lost Republicans be put on the side of milk cartons? I thought not. That smells like discrimination to me!

Arturius said...

I would like to caution our Democrat brethren to reign in their glee over what they think is the demise of the Grand Old Party. Politics is cyclical. Unless you have severe memory loss, it wasn’t all that long ago the Democrat Party was wandering in the wilderness with little hope of regaining power anytime soon. The GOP failed in the elections simply because they fell into the classic trap of absolute power corrupts. If anyone thinks that the Democrats won’t overreach and suffer the same fate is woefully na├»ve.

AJ Lynch said...

OT but here is a question for you folks.

Today is an election day here in PA. Is the state or county required to send every registered voter a notice of the election and a sample ballot? If not, why not?

Jen said...

Hoosier Daddy said,"[...]The bill will come due and when the progressive soccer mom's find out that no one makes a 42mpg SUV to haul her kids to around [...]"

Well, they aren't going to make it if someone doesn't force them to.

Fuel efficient cars in this country will come either from government regulation or because we get into another $2-3/gallon increase in pump petrol. And we all experienced how well THAT worked for the economy. The soccer moms weren't going anywhere in their SUVs when that happened.

A gallon of unleaded gas in Germany right now, $8.50.




And "what if people are becoming more moderate" was a much much too optimistic thing for me to say. I take it back.

Invisible Man said...

If the Grand Old Party wants some credibility back, they are going to have to focus less on spin, more on serious finance, and disassociate themselves from the evangelicals.Jen,

If you read down a couple of posts on this blog, and witness the absolutism on abortion, you'll realize that your prescription isn't coming anytime soon. The zealots have taken over and absolute purity is their solution. Go to Richard Posner's blog over the last few days and witness a group that is determined to shrink so they can compete with the Green party.

Hoosier Daddy said...

What if. . . .and this is a big "what if" people are sick of extremes and are becoming more moderate?.

Perhaps you and I have a vastly different concept of what extreme is.

Anecdotally I can say I see many Republicans disgusted with the religious fanaticism associated with the right. .

What fanaticism is that? Are evangelicals out there packing suicide vests into abortion clinics? Are megachurch leaders calling out for the deaths of their opponents? Are the evangelicals stoning adulterers or hanging gays? In the 'interesting times' we live in, it might be appropriate to re-define religious fanaticism at least in terms of the evangelical Christian set. Otherwise someone might be confused and think you're talking about the Taliban.

If the Grand Old Party wants some credibility back, they are going to have to focus less on spin, more on serious finance, and disassociate themselves from the evangelicals..

The credibility that they lost was on finance.

ElcubanitoKC said...

White liberals continue to ignore the largely evangelical black block in their party. Racists.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well, they aren't going to make it if someone doesn't force them to..

Note the word force. I suppose choice doesn't enter in the equation.

Fuel efficient cars in this country will come either from government regulation or because we get into another $2-3/gallon increase in pump petrol. And we all experienced how well THAT worked for the economy. .

Actually cars are prett fuel efficient. My Mazda Tribute which is an SUV gets better gas mileage than the 1973 Chevy Nova I drove in high school. I suppose fuel efficiency is a relative thing no? I'm quite sure its possible to make a 42mpg SUV, but probably not affordable except for folks in Obama's pay grade.

avwh said...

What if. . . .and this is a big "what if" people are sick of extremes and are becoming more moderate?And Obama's election is supposed to SUPPORT your hypothesis? Sorry, it destroys it - this guy is in some ways very slick (so the voting population not paying attention was easily fooled), but he's the most extreme President ever, as we're only beginning to see (though anyone who paid attention to his background isn't the least bit surprised).

ElcubanitoKC said...

And, yes, the GOP needs to go back to their roots of limited government and "live and let live". If they do, they may get my vote. In the meantime, I intend to voted another party, but unless I have a lobotomy in the interim, it will never be the DNC.

Jen said...

"Note the word force. I suppose choice doesn't enter in the equation."

No, it doesn't. You are forced to pay taxes. You are forced to comply with government regulation. It's not a choice if you own / run a business in this country.

I would HOPE that your current car is more fuel efficient than your 1973 one. It's not saying much about our engineering genius if we can't improve fuel efficiency over that amount of time.

I was . . .um. . .less than a year old in 1973. So I escaped that Nova.

rcocean said...

Why should anyone be surprised? The Republicans misuse their power, run up trillions in debt, support "free Trade" and $500 billion dollar trade deficits, out-sourcing, massive illegal immigration, and wars without end.

There's no reason anyone (except the rich or Pat Robertson) should support the party of "Rich white men in suits". Their dream candidates are McCain, Bob Dole George Bush.

Their latest vote-getting stunt was supporting $750 billion for Wall Street while telling the auto workers to go to hell. So of course they're losing the Midwest.

Hoosier Daddy said...

No, it doesn't. You are forced to pay taxes. You are forced to comply with government regulation. It's not a choice if you own / run a business in this country..

And its obviously not going to be a voice for the working stiff either.

I would HOPE that your current car is more fuel efficient than your 1973 one. It's not saying much about our engineering genius if we can't improve fuel efficiency over that amount of time..

Well that's my point. It's always going to be a moving target. Once they achieve 42mpg we'll be demanding 62mpg. And that's fine and good provided we can afford them. The problem is most people won't be able to. The concept that the government can force me into driving an oversived cupholder because they refuse to exploit our own natural resources is reprehensible.

I was . . .um. . .less than a year old in 1973. So I escaped that Nova..

I was 6 myself. I was driving that Nova in 1984 because that's all the car I could afford.

Jen said...

Crimney. Talk about knee jerk.

I never said that Obama's election supported my hypothesis that people were becoming more moderate.

I was pondering the subject which is the Gallup Poll posted above. Why are people moving away from the GOP?

avwh's statement is exactly why I rescinded my "people are becoming more moderate" comment.

WAAAAYYYY too optimistic of me.

AJ Lynch said...

RC:

Don't worry about the auto industry, the Obama admin seems to be doing fine in destroying what is left of it.

Jen said...

I don't know that exploiting our own natural resources will actually bring the price of oil down.

You seem a little too intelligent to have been chanting, "Drill Baby Drill" recently.

Paddy O. said...

As a certified religious fanatic and card carrying Evangelical my impression is that because social conservatism is really the only dependable part of Republicans the last decade it's not that surprising to find church goers still committed--though with a whole lot of grumbling.

It's also not surprising given how much "religious fanaticism = being religious" sentiment there is in the Democratic party. Yes, there are quite devout Democrats, but there's also significant vitriol and hatred for a lot of religious people to be found on the left.

It's tiresome to be derided in the same way that bigotry always derides--ignorance, typecasting, etc. It's tiresome to be treated as a caricature, that is all too often a media monster rather than a real picture of what a typical Evangelical is in this present day.

I'm a California registered as a Republican and I can't stand the state Republican party. Not because they're not extreme enough on social issues as haters might assume. Because they're idiots who have worked to secure their own limited power, making themselves content as a permanent minority, promoting men who have played the party game rather than who could be true leaders and good for the party on broad conservative values.

I don't like the party because they don't stand for anything, it seems, except for their own personal power. There's no risk. There's no courage. There's no message at all.

There's just nothing to get excited about. And all policy and political details aside, the one thing Democrats did have is someone they were able to get excited about.

Republicans find that person the whole game changes. But, far too often the political self-seeking prioritizes the safe mediocre who will do the bidding of their value-less masters. Republicans are still the party of Trent Lott and everyone in all categories is sick of that mush.

I don't really like being associated with that party, but I still see value in voting in Republican primaries, so I stay registered.

I wonder how much affiliation change has to do with open primaries.

garage mahal said...

The GOP has lost every demographic because of finance disagreements.

/head in sand

AJ Lynch said...

Jen:

Generally when you explore for and locate more of a natural resource like oil or diamonds or natural gas, it exerts a downward influence on prices.

traditionalguy said...

The role of a christian presence has always been a restraint on evil. The Separation of Powers in the founders wisdom was designed for that same purpose. When a life without Restraints becomes your goal, then by all means you should quickly throw the separation of powers doctrine out and cover your ears when a christian voice dares to speak in public about morality. Just do it more and more until something calls an end to the party.

John said...

It is interesting how the Democrats on this site put down church goers. Our President went to church every Sunday for 20 years. And he has repeatedly said that marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman. Obama is in some ways a better Christian than I am. He certainly wears it on his sleave more than I do.

But to white liberals African American religion, no matter how socially conservative and intollerant, is some kind of exotic and interesting local custom practiced among the natives. White religion, in contrast, is the realm of the evil fundies.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I don't know that exploiting our own natural resources will actually bring the price of oil down..

Pardon the snark but there is a basic economic concept of supply and demand. The more supply there is of a commodity the less the cost.

You seem a little too intelligent to have been chanting, "Drill Baby Drill" recently..

No, just smart enough to understand the basic economic concept that I was taught in high school econ class.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I don't know that exploiting our own natural resources will actually bring the price of oil down.

I guess you haven't heard about the law of supply and demand then?

Jen: speaking about the little shitty cars that Obama is going to force on the market place.Well, they aren't going to make it if someone doesn't force them to

Again. Supply and demand. You can supply all the crappy shit cans to the dealers you want, but if people don't WANT to buy them they will just sit there. I have a friend who is an auto dealer and says that those cars sit on his lot forever and just don't move. People don't want them and refuse to buy.

What are you going to do? FORCE people to spend money on something they don't want? People will not buy anything rather than be forced to get something they hate.

In addition the price of these POS cars is going to make them unaffordable for the precious middle class and lower classes for which Obama's heart bleeds.

I love the "liberals" they are all about FORCE, making people do things against their will.

A bunch of creepy Nurse Ratchet types. It's for our own good you know.

John said...

"I don't know that exploiting our own natural resources will actually bring the price of oil down."


At least intuitively, increasing the supply of something will generally decrease the price. Is there any reason to think that isn't the case here? Does oil behave like no other commodity in the world? If food prices were too high and someone said that we need to grow more food, would you say that we can't "grow our way out of our food shortage"?

John said...

"Jen: speaking about the little shitty cars that Obama is going to force on the market place.Well, they aren't going to make it if someone doesn't force them to"

Jen have you ever considered the possibility that it is no one's business what car you chose to drive? No one should be forced to drive a particular car anymore than they should be forced to wear certain clothing or live in a certain house. I don't think you intended to end up this way. But views like that show how profoundly antithetical the concept of individual freedom is to you.

Hoosier Daddy said...

But to white liberals African American religion, no matter how socially conservative and intollerant, is some kind of exotic and interesting local custom practiced among the natives. .

Kind of like Islam. They're quick to point out that only a tiny tiny, minority, a handful really, are terrorists and we should be more respectful of their beliefs so as to not offend them.

Evangelical Christians on the other hand are religious fanatics who should be marginalized and discarded by the GOP at once if they have any hope of being accepted by mainstream voters.

Titusiseatingfageyogurtthankyou said...

We as republicans have no issues. This is a liberal poll.

No more moderates.

2012 Cheney, Palin and Limbaugh front and center and we will win. Not Mary Cheney though.

Also, Paulson is a republican.

And we still have the south.

John said...

"Kind of like Islam. They're quick to point out that only a tiny tiny, minority, a handful really, are terrorists and we should be more respectful of their beliefs so as to not offend them."

Yes. Homosexuality is illegal in Muslim nations. Yet, the U.S. is a rogue nation for not having gay marriage. Only white, Christians are to be held to any standard of moral behavior. Everyone else, just can't help themselves. And they are thus not to be looked down upon or held in any way responsible for intollerant beliefs. It is the 21st Century manifestation of the white man's burden.

garage mahal said...

And we still have the south..

And Appalachia!

John said...

"And we still have the south..

And Appalachia!"

You say that like it is a bad thing, you bigoted fuck.

John said...

And garage mahal, the Democrats even in their lowest eb, still have Compton and East St. Louis. Doesn't sound so good when turned around does it?

TMink said...

"Maybe because in the last 8 years they became indistinguishable from the Democrats? At least in terms of spending money the nation doesn't have."

That is how they lost this conservative Christian.

Trey

Titusiseatingfageyogurtthankyou said...

And our republican red states get more cash per person from the federal government than those commie liberal blue states.

That's why we have the porker Thad Cochran from Mississippi. He brings home the bacon.

Our southern states are the least educated, have the highest rate of teen pregnancy and are the fattest and poorest but we are where the republican party is strongest.

And that is not an issue. Everything is great. We are doing well. The poll is liberal. It's the media's fault. Public education is to blame. It Hollywood's fault. Young people should not be able to vote, they are all liberals now but they will become conservatives.

Get rid of the ladies from Maine.

Get Kathryn Jean Lopez on the tele more to woo the young voter. She is amazing.

We are strong and united and are coming back!

2010 we will win back the senate and house and 2012 the presidency.

So goes Oklahoma so goes the rest of the country.

There must be some additional states we can ban gay marriage in order to help us gin up some votes.

TMink said...

Jen wrote: "Anecdotally I can say I see many Republicans disgusted with the religious fanaticism associated with the right."

I loves me some religious fanaticism, where do you see any of that with the Republicans? I wanna git me some.

Trey

garage mahal said...

And garage mahal, the Democrats even in their lowest eb, still have Compton and East St. Louis. Doesn't sound so good when turned around does it?.

I'm not a cry baby. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Invisible Man said...

And garage mahal, the Democrats even in their lowest eb, still have Compton and East St. Louis. Doesn't sound so good when turned around does it?..

Here's the problem with your comparison, we don't just have East St. Louis, but almost all of the Midwest. We also don't just have Compton but the entire West Coast. Garage, made a reasonable point based on demographics and current voting patterns, its you who I'm guessing wants to add a racial element to this conversation by highlighting just East St. Louis where the bad, bad black people who don't matter by your standards live instead of just saying Missouri or the MidWest. But hey let your inner bigot out.

TMink said...

Jen wrote: "I don't know that exploiting our own natural resources will actually bring the price of oil down."

Yeah, that whole supply/demand thing is WAY over rated.

Trey /sarcasm off

Titusiseatingfageyogurtthankyou said...

More Southern Senators on tv, 24/7.

They inspire support and following.

Get that little redneck Jeff Sessions out there. He is amazing.

More Hailey Barbor. He is incredible.

And guys with names like Sonny, Saxby, and Cooter on the tv.

Titusiseatingfageyogurtthankyou said...

More fat white guys from the south selling our message please.

It is a win win for all of us.

Also going off on cities like San Francisco (awful technology hub) and Boston (awful medical research hub) plays incredibly well.

Also, go off on good colleges too. Someone who goes to a good college is disgusting and needs to be ridiculed. Actually, any schooling should be denigrated.

Focus more on the types of food people eat. Anything that sounds foreign or may be healthy for you is elite and not American. Get those commie food purchasers who don't fry everything.

Titusiseatingfageyogurtthankyou said...

Go off on cities in general as well as people who live in cities.

Unless the city is Montgomery or Jackson, don't go off on those cities.

Have Beauregard Jefford Sessions III bring out his noose from his younger years.

And lastly be really good bowlers.

Paddy O. said...

"We also don't just have Compton but the entire West Coast."

Not really. California is a red state except for the LA area, and the Bay area.

San Diego is conservative. Orange County is conservative. San Bernardino county (largest county in the world) is conservative. Except for the urban areas and coastal northern California the state is red.

And proposition 8 was passed in LA county, meaning it's not a social conservative issue at work even in the blue areas of SoCal.

Indeed, I think it might be argued that California is a red state that has been affected by more recent immigration--not as much from Mexico as the influx of people from other states in the high times of the 80s and 90s.

Yes, California has a very Democratic legislature, and two Democratic Senators. But, California is also not exactly a model of great political leadership these days. Indeed, today is a great chance to see where the politics stands in actual decisions. Our election today has all sorts of measures designed to bolster spending and give more to the Democratic legislature.

Most are polling quite badly and are probably going to lose, suggesting that Californians are not as blue, nor are we looking to throw more money at the problems even in the face of rather dire consequences.

A poll from a week ago.

madawaskan said...

titus-

It's just about as effective as a thirty plus year old-

vagina virgin.

going off on Bristol Palin.

Yes! I'm looking at YOU.

John said...

"Here's the problem with your comparison, we don't just have East St. Louis, but almost all of the Midwest. We also don't just have Compton but the entire West Coast. Garage, made a reasonable point based on demographics and current voting patterns, its you who I'm guessing wants to add a racial element to this conversation by highlighting just East St. Louis where the bad, bad black people who don't matter by your standards live instead of just saying Missouri or the MidWest. But hey let your inner bigot out."


Advanced concepts of rethoric go right over liberals' heads. Of course saying the Dems have Compton is a bigoted thing to say. That was the point. If that is bigoted, garage mahal snarking about Apalacia is just as bad.

I guess it is because liberals live in cacoons where nothing they think is ever challenged that they are unable to grasp even basic rethorical techniques.

So it comes as no suprise that you would in the next breath commit the logical fallacy of appealing to popularity. I don't really care how popular your ideas are at this point in time. That doesn't make them correct. The Revolution was awfully popular in 1790 France but that doesn't mean it turned out well. Sometimes societies willing go to their own destruction. That appears to be what is happening in the U.S. these days. I still have faith that a good dose of people like you will bring people to their senses. But one never knows.

John said...

Fifty years ago Detroit was the greatest industrial city in the history of the world. Pennsyvania was the arsenal of Democracy. Now both are burnt out shell of their former selves. How did this happen? Well, high taxes, unionism and big government had a lot to do with it. Socialism of the chronie sort practiced by the current generation of Democrats that are too dumb or too cynical to care, has never brought prosperity anywhere on earth. It has only lived a parasitic existence on the success of the market. In places like Zimbabwe and South America, it has brought misery and hunger. But this time is different right?

madawaskan said...

titus-

really?

The tax rates in NYC, and San Fran are low?

Ghee who knew!

What about the crime rates?

Fabulous.

Then of course all the homeless in San Fran-why do you liberals not care?

Sadz really.

And inner city schools everyone is clamoring to get into those-right?

And those are run by who again?

madawaskan said...

And crap San Fran at least they got rid of the middle class so there's that.

Who wants to look at those breeders.

And-they're usually breeders you know-because raising a kid can cost upwards of $800,000.

Hoosier Daddy said...

And Appalachia!"

You say that like it is a bad thing, you bigoted fuck.
.

Garage is your typical white bred liberal. You can't be bigoted when denigrating your own race. Kind of how Chris Rock can say the N word in his stand up routine and that's ok while Imus is crucified for saying nappy headed ho. You won't ever see garage say we have the Coasts along with the Get-tow.

Keeping up with the liberal codebook is a lot of work.

Issob Morocco said...

It would be nice of Gallup to provide more detail to the polling sample than they did.

Having said that I would also say thanks to all of the commenters for some interesting perspectives as to why the Republicans seem 'lost'.

While some I am sure some are exhibiting schadenfreude in their comments as to how to correct this issue, for those sincere, I would posit this thought.

Ideas, like job creation, individual rights, income growth, pursuit of happiness, less government intrusion in our lives, are what draw people together to vote a certain way. Not their place of residence, religion, or such other grouping criteria. Focus on the big ideas, is what draws majorities. That is why the Dimmycrats need to separate families, neighbors, workers into small buckets, to keep us under the thumb of their ruling political class power. That is a power we need to shut down.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Our election today has all sorts of measures designed to bolster spending and give more to the Democratic legislature.

Yup...Im voting NO!! and HELL NO !!!on all of the measures except for the one that limits pay increases for our piggy legislators when the State is running a deficit budget.

I don't care if California goes bankrupt at this point. Maybe they will sober up and quit spending our money like drunken sailors on two dollar whores.

AJ Lynch said...

DBQ:

If the taxing issues are voted down, how big a deal will the media make of it?

rcocean said...

The real problem with the Republicans is that they're not moderate enough.

Want to win, look at Arnold! He's shown us the way. As for McCain he was too conservative -always yapping about abortion. We need Rudy or Bloomberg in '012. Or what about Chaffee or Shays - they're available. And if the Repubs were more liberal, Arlen wouldn't have left. I'll miss him.

Obviously, we need to get rid of all the people who vote for Repub 90 percent of the time, and go after the Boston Soccer moms & Silicon Valley yuppies. They *want* to vote Repub - really, but they can't because of right-wing extremists like Mitt Romney and Steele.

Lets follow the path of the California & Massachusetts and put the Republican Party on the road to victory.

garage mahal said...

Garage is your typical white bred liberal. .

Witty, charming, and extremely attractive. Why yes, I couldn't agree more!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If the taxing issues are voted down, how big a deal will the media make of it?

Hard to say. I think they will ignore it because "liberal" California isn't supposed to vote down taxes and free lunches for the poor and downtrodden pipples. Also they don't want to recognize that the reality is that the majority of the State is 'red' not 'blue'. With the exception of a few heavily populated urban areas and the earth groovy coastal areas the rest of the State is pretty conservative.

Of course the media will cry crocodile tears over how horrible it is that the chilreeeeenn and mentally ill will suffer.

The next meme will be how we all will suffer when they cut back on essential services. It would never cross their minds that we should economize and possibly cut back on the grossly inflated public employee unionized wages and benefits.

I don't care. They can cut on of the two sheriffs that patrol our area right now. It won't make a bit of difference to me. And if the 'blue' urban areas erupt in rioting or burn down.....they did it to themselves with years and years of irresponsible hare brained spending.

We have to stop feeding the pigs and make our legislators cut back and be responsible stewards of our tax money. If some people also need to cut back, so be it. We are tired of funding every crackpot, bloated project and unnecessary scheme.

rcocean said...

I suggest everyone read Christie Todd Whitman's Book:

"Its My Party Too"

Its full of great advice from the wildly popular NJ Gov who won 2 massive landslides. She also rebuilt the NJ Republican Party to its current successful dominance of NJ state politics. Its quite a success story. So get to it Republicans.

Paddy O. said...

"If the taxing issues are voted down, how big a deal will the media make of it?"

I'm not DBQ, but I've got an opinion.

The measures are ludicrous. There's moving around fund, tapping into money they're not allowed to tap into, there's call for funding schools even as the lottery money is diverted away from schools. This last diversion already happened. My dad teaches in a juvenile hall and was told months ago that there would no longer be lottery money available to schools--even as the lottery has been touted for 25 years as helping schools (not that this is why people by tickets).

The legislature has wrecked California's economy, aided by a governor who came in with a passion for change, had one huge setback in early ballot measures, and has become a passive lapdog since then. Who would have ever seen an Arnold movie if after the first firefight he put down his gun and joined the other side?

The republicans in the state are a joke, happy to secure their small little pieces of the pie, and allowed to do so as long as they don't make too much noise.

It'll be big local news for the week, but it'll be a lot of handwringing legislators talking sad. And there will be focus on Arnold, yet again, losing the measures he pushed.

It won't get big national news, because right now no one wants to look at California, which really is a test of the present economic direction of this country.

But, the state will keep voting in the same people. And the state will get a lot less crowded.

As always, the poor lose. But by voting down these measures at least there will be forcing the legislature to do what it should have done, and maybe keep the poor from losing more and more--all while being told how important they are.

Everyone hates the poor. Especially the politicians currently leading the Democratic party.

BJM said...

DBQ: Maybe they will sober up and quit spending our money like drunken sailors on two dollar whores.

IMO-Pelosi isn't worth two bucks.


We voted against the measures too, but fat fucking chance the state Dems will stop spending.

Our local asshats tried to slap on a $300 ER-first responder fee to offset their budget shortfall. The local populace went ape shit, especially seniors, as we have one of the highest property tax rates in the state.

They backed down, but like Arnold, they'll be back.

AJ Lynch said...

Dbq:

I predict the media will pretty much ignore except as you said to demonize the evil voters who voted it down.

Paddy O;

Thanks for the insight. Everyone in CA seems to say similar things but nothing ever gets fixed.

Jen said...

Wow.

So we have some supply side economics lessons offered up here. Simplistically, but still offered.


The oil market is a worldwide exchange.

Best case scenario for those living in la-la land:
We can immediately put up rigs that would suck every drop of oil out of the off shore reserves.

That would give us about a 700 million barrel of oil/year increase.

The US consumes about 7.5 billion barrels of oil per year.

Again, oil is a global market. This is an increase in global supply of about 2%.

If you want to argue strictly supply side economics, as Hoosier Daddy does from his high school economics class, then you have to remember the tenets of your own argument.

If demand is very high and supply is low, and you increase that supply by a teeny tiny bit, you are going to have very little impact on the price of the good.

So. Easy math. 4.09/gallon at the pump for your Mazda Tribute becomes 4.00/gallon.

So, drill baby drill! And save yourselves about a dime.



Nurse Ratched. . .

Stylish.

I can't wait to see what other loads of crap you people have swallowed.

Jen said...

No need to pardon your snark Hoosier Daddy.

Snark away.

John said...

Jen,

First, we don't know exactly how much oil is out there. I would question where you got your numbers. Beyond that, even if your nubmers are good, so what? You commit the logical fallacy of claiming that because an action can't solve all of a problem it is undesireable. If drilling reduces the price of gas by even a penny, that is well over $1 billion dollars a year in savings and added wealth. By your logic, why are we producing any oil at all? If US production is so insignificant, why not just ban all domestic oil production. If ANWER or off shore in California is not worth the effort, why is off shore in the gulf or the plains of Texas worth the effort?

While we are at it, perhaps we should ban all production of food? Farms do a lot of agricultural damage and food is fungable just like oil.

Big Mike said...

Eric found this link, leading me to conclude that Mark Twain was wrong -- there's still another category beyond "damn lies and statistics" and that's polling.

What I find fascinating about the Gallup chart is that right after the election the Democrats had an 18 percentage point edge on the Republicans and two weeks ago the party affiliation is dead even. Since the Republicans have done practically nothing to win those voters, it's clear that the Democrats have lost them, at least for now.

Bruce Hayden said...

"Why should anyone be surprised? The Republicans misuse their power, run up trillions in debt, support "free Trade" and $500 billion dollar trade deficits, out-sourcing, massive illegal immigration, and wars without end."

And, the Democrats come to power, quadruple the deficit, and make the Republican abuses of power look like they were Boy Scouts. And if Obama gets eight years with a Democratic Congress the entire time, the debt will be orders of magnitude higher than it was under Bush. And it is likely to be even worse than projected, because most of the Keynesian "stimulus" is counter-cyclical and doesn't work in the first place (but rather was the pretext for a spending spree on every Democratic wish for the last 20 years). Plus, much of the revenue generation being proposed by Obama is smoke and mirrors.

It is hard to fathom why anyone opposing illegal immigration would support the Democrats - indeed, it was the Republicans, voting against their President, who killed the amnesty bill so favored by the Democrats.

Out-sourcing can better be viewed economically as comparative advantage. We don't produce what others can produce much more efficiently, and do expend resources where we have a comparative advantage. The result, shown time and time again by economic research, is that we (and those pesky foreigners taking away all our low skill manufacturing jobs) are all richer as a result.

Pogo said...

"So, drill baby drill! And save yourselves about a dime."

In which Jen counsels nihilism.

BJM said...

My two cents about the CAFE reg change, I think it's the first step towards a Western European mode; you can buy the larger, less efficient cars and SUVs but you'll pay a hefty duty based on weight and engine displacement.

The average European doesn't buy shoebox cars because they like them, they can't afford the onerous duty on higher engine displacements/weight classes.

However, I don't believe SUVs and vans are going away as there are tens of millions of tradesmen and small companies that need pickups and light trucks (the same platform as the SUV)to deliver necessary goods and services. Business will simply pass along the cost as overhead or the govt will allow a tax credit. Also in part because of the cultural elite and political class appetites for SUVs and limos/town cars, the sedan will survive, but disappear from the family driveway.

As in Europe, the wealthy will buy whatever they wish while bureaucrats and Pols are exempt; creating a more stratified society not less.

Make no mistake, when all boats are lowered in the name of fairness and equality, the Pols will be on shore.

John said...

CAFE standards and of course unions are what destroyed Detroit. Absent those insane standards, Detroit could have gotten completly out of the small car low margin business, where it can't compete with Japan, and just concentraited on big cars and trucks and SUVs, where they made money.

Jen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AJ Lynch said...

Jen:

Several commenters were kind enough to answer Jen's economics questions.

In return, she decides to disdain conventional facts and knowledge because she seems to be just another a brainwashed, tree-hugging liberal.

How about this Jen? If we drill for more of our own energy, we may create more jobs for Americans and we keep more of the energy money right here in the USA?

Pogo said...

Hell, if we just aborted more babies, and removed the arbitrary limit of 'delivery', we wouldn't need so much energy.

Props to Malthus.

Jen said...

"If we drill for more of our own energy. . . ."

That is again making the assumption that the oil we would produce would stay in this country.

That's not the way the oil market works.

Instead of actually thinking about the question at hand, you resort to name calling. Again.

I have to go dig up and hug a cedar now.

John said...

Good luck with the cedar Jen. Yes, you are right that oil is fungable and the oil we drill here might not stay in the country. But, again, so what? It still adds to the overall supply of oil and helps to reduce the price.

AJ Lynch said...

Jen throws terms at us like La-la land and supply-siders but gets bothered at being called a liberal.

I think Jen could be Jeremy's sister.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

That is again making the assumption that the oil we would produce would stay in this country.

I don't believe anyone is making that assumption. Supply and demand is a very complex balancing act. If we increase the supply, temporarily the prices will go down until supply elsewhere is decreased or demand increases to level out the equation. Probably by less pumping from the Middle East would decrease world supply, raising prices and decreasing demand.

The reason that we have no control over the world spot price of oil is that the supply is controlled, at this time, by a very small group of countries who use their supply and control of oil to manipulate the market. They can do this because we, in the United States, have decided that we would allow them to do so by not releasing the supplies that we have.

The spot price or the futures price is based on the anticipated supply of the product. When it is apparent that we have crippled ourselves and refuse to supply, the traders intelligently determine that the future price of the commodity will go up and price their trades accordingly. The oil companies per se, have no control on the actual price of their product. It is all based on gambling on the future supply and demand.

In addition, the production of oil, shale oil and coal technologies WOULD create jobs in our own country and the money from those jobs would stimulate the economy. Far better than the idiotic crappola and shell game that Obama is pulling on us.

I have to go dig up and hug a cedar now.

Evidently you don't know much about trees either. They grow above ground.

Jen said...

I was referring to transplanting a cedar. You know, wherein you dig them up first, give them a hug, then replant them.

Jen said...

AJL

I'd be happy to sell you a "Team Jeremy" t-shirt if you'd like one.

As his sock puppet sister, I wear it when I blog on Althouse.

Jen said...

AJL:

Take a lesson from Synovia. If you are going to quote someone, including yourself, you need to do it properly.

I did not get upset at being called a liberal.

I thought that, "[...]she seems to be just another a brainwashed, tree-hugging liberal." was juvenile and responded appropriately.

garage mahal said...

I never understood that one. All liberals are sheep who think alike. But if two liberals agree on something they must be sock puppets.

Arturius said...

Best case scenario for those living in la-la land:
We can immediately put up rigs that would suck every drop of oil out of the off shore reserves.

That would give us about a 700 million barrel of oil/year increase.
The United States has roughly 21 billion barrels worth of proved reserves.

Again, oil is a global market..

It is a fungible commodity, one in which 12 oil producing nations control about 50% of the market share in a cartel or monopoly. Opec is able to keep oil prices artificially high by controlling production through collusion. Needless to say, that type of activity is illegal in the United States which is why we have anti-trust laws that forbid price fixing.

If demand is very high and supply is low, and you increase that supply by a teeny tiny bit, you are going to have very little impact on the price of the good..

That is going on the assumption that such an increase in supply would be teeny and tiny. Adding another ‘700 million barrels a year’ to world production would have a disparate impact on the global oil price, our consumption notwithstanding.

So. Easy math. 4.09/gallon at the pump for your Mazda Tribute becomes 4.00/gallon..

In reality, the math and global economics is a bit more complicated.

Jen said...

Arturius said, "In reality, the math and global economics is a bit more complicated."

Absolutely. I agree with you. I was trying to make the discussion simple to understand because the reference was to high school econ class.

Cedarford said...

Hoosier Daddy - "I highly doubt conservatives have left to become mindless liberals. Most likely waiting for a leader much like the libs did when all they had were Gore and Kerry.".

The problem with "hold our 30-year old Reagan values", await the Charismatic Leader like Our Sarah! who can resurrect all those old ideas .......is that it ignores the hemorrhaging Republicans are seeing on state and local levels, along with key groups like women, hispanics, college educated youth.

That is all independent of the theory that all that is needed is a charismatic champion like "Our Sarah!" to bring back all the great old ideas..so no change from where Republicans stood in 1978 is needed...

And in that, attempting to become even MORE conservative...hence the recent move by hardcores to proclaim that virtually anyone not born in rural Alabama or Alaska, white, and Religious Right --is a likely RINO!

The McGovernites persisted from 1968 to 1984 under similar delusion. The people rejected them, but that was no reflection on their ideas and programs...You see, all they needed was one great charismatic champion to validate it all. A Teddy who wasn't Teddy, for example....
===================
rcocean said...
Why should anyone be surprised? The Republicans misuse their power, run up trillions in debt, support "free Trade" and $500 billion dollar trade deficits, out-sourcing, massive illegal immigration, and wars without end.

There's no reason anyone (except the rich or Pat Robertson) should support the party of "Rich white men in suits". Their dream candidates are McCain, Bob Dole George Bush.

Their latest vote-getting stunt was supporting $750 billion for Wall Street while telling the auto workers to go to hell.
.



Yep.

Except it all makes perfect sense to the 10% of the population that is hard core religious right, convinced that God loves money and the rich, and the more devout low-skilled hispanics that help line their pockets with profits from cheap labor - the better. And the more jobs lost to free trade or the more people lose standard of living...the more they will "cling" to God, guns, religion!

Even the endless wars. They don't agree the wars are endless..but must be fought for Israel until Armageddeon arrives and the 2nd Coming. Or for the moneymen not in the Christian Zionist camp - when Armageddeon comes for those too stupid or too poor to have a law degree or a MBA. Thus unlike those fatcat Republicans who are far removed from harm...

TMink said...

Jen is to Jeremy as Althouse is to Joan Rivers.

I disagree with some things Jen says and she uses some slippery tactics when confronted, this is a far cry from the way Jeremy operates. If Jeremy could post as Jen does, I would cease to loathe him and actually read his posts.

Trey

Jen said...

HOOSIER DADDY!!!!!

I could actually hear the Horst Wessel!

You were right!

Wow. . . .

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I was trying to make the discussion simple to understand because the reference was to high school econ class

Ah, well, there is your mistake. You are equating your high school experience to those of us (ahem) older posters who had high school classes that actually taught us something and held us accountable for learning. Unlike school today were the students are just squeezed through the system and indoctrinated instead of taught.

:-D

Jeremy said...

TMink said..."I disagree with some things Jen says and she uses some slippery tactics when confronted, this is a far cry from the way Jeremy operates. If Jeremy could post as Jen does, I would cease to loathe him and actually read his posts."

Gee, I can't even begin to describe the pain your comment has inflicted upon me.

One would think we had had a long term relationship that went terribly bad...I mean...you "loathe" me?

Well, that's it, Trey (is that like something I set my drinks on?)...I'm never going to love you again.

Good-bye...and I mean it this time.

Really.

Jeremy said...

garage mahal said..."I never understood that one. All liberals are sheep who think alike. But if two liberals agree on something they must be sock puppets."

The next thing you know, they'll be referring to us as...dittoheads.

Can you imagine any independent thinking person reveling in the fact that he or she is part of a group that think so much alike, they're referred to as a dittohead?

Sounds almost...communist.

Jen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeremy said...

Big Mike said..."What I find fascinating about the Gallup chart is that right after the election the Democrats had an 18 percentage point edge on the Republicans and two weeks ago the party affiliation is dead even."

The key being "party affiliation."

But when asked what they consider themselves to be, only 21% say Republican.

*Post-ABC poll - 21 percent of those surveyed said they identify as Republicans, the fewest to do so in a Post-ABC poll in more than 25 years.

There are all kinds of people registered as Republicans that voted for Obama, but not many registered Democrats that voted for McCain and Princess Palin.

Jen said...

Jeremy!

I've learned so much since our time in the Mercedes.

Did you know that Jesus condoned violent action?

That Gandhi was an anti-Semite?

That the Dalai Lama supported the invasion of Iraq?

That American cars are built in America?

I feel so. . . .enlightened.

Pogo said...

Some flowering plants with decaying blooms can be "deadheaded", which allows a newer bud to form and bloom.

As here.

Jeremy said...

Jen - "Without comments like yours, this becomes a conservative circle jerk and is not nearly as interesting."

Sometimes it's more like a "jerk circle."

And boy, is it easy to get these wingnuts riled up.

I suggest a drinking game (but not for Peter, he's already drunk) that demands a shot of booze every time the words leftist, liberal or socialist appear relating to anybody who isn't part of the local pack.

Jen said...

It would have to be watered down booze or it would be a short read.

Jeremy said...

Jen said..."Jeremy! I've learned so much since our time in the Mercedes."

You'll read things here that will make your hair stand on end.

And if you're conversing with Hoosier, make damn sure you know when the corn crop comes in...he got me on that one a few weeks ago.

Damn!!

*By the way, have you cleaned the chocolate syrup and whipped cream off the seats yet?

Jen said...

LOL!

My staff does that sort of stuff for me.

Jen said...

I like Hoosier.

He's funny and at least so far seems open to discussing topics in a level way.

He has tossed a few insults in my direction, but they are mostly harmless.

John said...

"Except it all makes perfect sense to the 10% of the population that is hard core religious right, convinced that God loves money and the rich, and the more devout low-skilled hispanics that help line their pockets with profits from cheap labor - the better. And the more jobs lost to free trade or the more people lose standard of living...the more they will "cling" to God, guns, religion!"

Cederford you are without a doubt the most ignorant person I have ever seen post on Althouse. That statement is so full of bigotry, stereotypes and hatefulness it defies response.

The bigotry and hate on the left has long since gone past the point of being creepy. It is astounding how insular and bigoted liberals have become. They know nothing about the world outside the communities in which they live. They project all of their worst fears and insecurities on selected groups that have been branded the other. No hatred or slander of these groups is impermissible. And worst of all, they don't even know how awful they have become. They think they are enlightened. Scary.

Jen said...

John said, "It is astounding how insular and bigoted liberals have become. They know nothing about the world outside the communities in which they live."

Here we go.

This is exactly why I have my staff grocery shop for me as well.

Jen said...

I think "bigoted liberal" deserves 2 shots.

*hic*

Jeremy said...

JOHN - "Cederford you are without a doubt the most ignorant person I have ever seen post on Althouse. That statement is so full of bigotry, stereotypes and hatefulness it defies response."

And follows up with:

The bigotry and hate on the left has long since gone past the point of being creepy. It is astounding how insular and bigoted liberals have become. They know nothing about the world outside the communities in which they live. They project all of their worst fears and insecurities on selected groups that have been branded the other."

WOW...thank God you have the sense not to post anything relating to "bigotry, stereotypes and hatefulness."

I do have to wonder how you come to the conclusion that liberals "know nothing about the world outside the communities in which they live."

Are you implying liberals don't travel or read?

And where are these sheltered "communities" where they're nesting and reproducing?

Places like New York, Chicago, San Franciso, Los Angeles, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami, etc.?

Have you told anybody else about this...?

John said...

"Except it all makes perfect sense to the 10% of the population that is hard core religious right, convinced that God loves money and the rich, and the more devout low-skilled hispanics that help line their pockets with profits from cheap labor - the better. And the more jobs lost to free trade or the more people lose standard of living...the more they will "cling" to God, guns, religion!"


Jen and Jeremy,

Read that statement again. Cederford has clearly never met anyone who is an evangelical. Only someone who has never met and knows nothing, other than their own bigoted insecure projections, could write that. The statement speaks for itself. The fact that you two are not appalled by it, shows how little you actually know.

First, I am not an evangelical. But I grew up around them and they are nothing like cederford describes them. Nothing. His statement displays a profound ignorance of who these people are and a complete disrespect of their world view. If you two want to disown Cederford's ignorance, fine. But until you do, I assume that you agree with him.

If you don't know anyone who doesn't think like you and act like you, you are insular and ignorant.

Cedarford said...

John - Cederford you are without a doubt the most ignorant person I have ever seen post on Althouse. That statement is so full of bigotry, stereotypes and hatefulness it defies response. Like it or not, blindly worshipping 1978-ers ideas, striving to far more religious and far to the right of Reagan just hasn't worked out too well for Republicans.
Reagan would have clawed out the auto molds from the hands of Japs trying to take our auto manufacturing away. Ooops, by "violating sacred free trade principles" Reagan did. Just as he increased taxes when his tax cuts for the wealthy went too far in wrecking his budget.
Bush II would carry the parts on his back to a waiting Chinese freighter if he thought his Multinational benefactors would profit by his doing so. And we all know what he did for keeping Republicans identified as the party of fiscal responsibility. The Club for Growth demanded, and Bush delivered, the tax cut/IOU to China system.

Meanwhile, John appears to want "less pure" Republicans purged. Just as the McGovernites became obsessed with purity over victory.

Lose the West Coast, New England, Midwest, Northern Industrial states, Florida, hispanics, college educated? Some say that is good because it allows free trade, born-again Republicans to retreat into ever-purer, ever-smaller Deep South bastions of "non-RINO thinking".

"And, don't forget our Bible Belt hillbillies", "that immigrated to Alaska in Dust Bowl days!", they say...Yep, they don't just exist in Fundie Land.
And some would point out that while they think Mormons are basically a godless heretic cult and any Mormon is unfit to vote on for President, Republicans will still accept their votes and hope to keep some Rocky Mountain States.

John said...

"Are you implying liberals don't travel or read?

And where are these sheltered "communities" where they're nesting and reproducing?

Places like New York, Chicago, San Franciso, Los Angeles, Seattle, Atlanta, Miami, etc.?"


I am not implying it, I am saying it. My relatives in rural Kansas know more about the world at large and are more tolerant about the world and people with different views than the liberals I know in Washington, DC. To the liberals I know, everyone who doesn't live in one of the cities you mention, who goes to church regularly, is some kind of ignorant fundie deserving of scorn and ridicule. The amount of regional and class bigorty that happens among liberals is appalling. Every liberal with a conscience ought to be ashamed. But, you guys don't seem to be. You just cheer it on. That is creepy.

John said...

Cederford,

You sound like Bull Conner talking about all the darkies and evil jews coming down and messing things up. I am not sure which is more disturbing, how obviously angry and bitter you are toward anyone who doesn't agree with you, or the fact that your behavior is so accpetable in polite society today.

Jeremy said...

JOHN - "I am not implying it, I am saying it. My relatives in rural Kansas know more about the world at large and are more tolerant about the world and people with different views than the liberals I know in Washington, DC."

If you actually think the people in rural areas of Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and other such states are as well acquainted with the ways of the world, you're smoking some pretty good dope.

Many of the most conservative people in the country are situated in just such areas, many associated with hard-core fundamentalist Christian organizations (ever hear of John Ashcroft?), fanatical anti-abortion groups, and of course the NRA is big.

Oh, and don't forget the schools in Kansas that fight tooth and nail to teach creationism instead of evolution...now that's a sure sign of those who, as you say; "know more about the world at large."

*Then again...Kansas is very flat so maybe that's where that comes from.

Jeremy said...

John - You can't write this:

"The bigotry and hate on the left has long since gone past the point of being creepy. It is astounding how insular and bigoted liberals have become. They know nothing about the world outside the communities in which they live. They project all of their worst fears and insecurities on selected groups that have been branded the other."

And then say this about another:

"If you don't know anyone who doesn't think like you and act like you, you are insular and ignorant."

Most would find that be a tad hypocritical.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Since this thread has now become the Jen and Jeremy sock puppet show.

Time to move on.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Big Mike : Eric found this link, leading me to conclude that Mark Twain was wrong -- there's still another category beyond "damn lies and statistics" and that's polling.

Wow Big Mike! Good job, Althouse should do an update for sure.

For those of you who didn't catch it, the numbers in the Gallop Poll story Althouse linked to seem to be a detailed assessment of an ongoing poll Gallop does. As of early May the percent of people who call themselves either Republican or Democrats seems to be equal!

Jeremy said...

Dust Bunny Queen said..."Since this thread has now become the Jen and Jeremy sock puppet show. Time to move on."

At least we own socks.

Don't let the door hit your fat ass on the way out.

Jeremy said...

"As of early May the percent of people who call themselves either Republican or Democrats seems to be equal!"

WOW!!!!!

And you believe that?

Paddy O. said...

As a hard-core fundamentalist Christian I would like to dispute the fact that we are based in places like Kansas (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Anyone with a knowledge of American history would know that that Christian Fundamentalism has very strong connections to Southern California.

Indeed, like always, we can blame an oil barons. Fundamentalism has oil money at its roots.

Jeremy said...

I always love it when the same local wingnuts denigrate "polling" as being inaccurate and not worth the time...until they can ferret out a poll that they like.

Anybody who thinks an even number of people consider themselves Republican as Democrat right now...evidently also believe, considering the latest 65% approval rating, that millions of support Barack Obama.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Jeremy : "As of early May the percent of people who call themselves either Republican or Democrats seems to be equal!"

WOW!!!!!

And you believe that?

Sure, I believed the earlier poll numbers, too. Democrat enthusiasm has fallen, Bush is gone, and there's a new person to criticize.

Jeremy said...

Jason - But I thought polling was all bullshit?

Every time I mention Obama's approval rating I'm told polling is not believable.

I also noticed in the Gallup numbers that in 2004 only 28% of Americans considered themselves to be Democrats, which I find very hard to believe, especially considering the Iraqi situation.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Jeremy : I also noticed in the Gallup numbers that in 2004 only 28% of Americans considered themselves to be Democrats, which I find very hard to believe, especially considering the Iraqi situation.

Headline: JEREMY QUESTIONS VALIDITY OF OBAMA APPROVAL RATINGS!

Jeremy said...

Jason - "Headline: JEREMY QUESTIONS VALIDITY OF OBAMA APPROVAL RATINGS!"

I have absolutely no idea how you come to that.

I question a Gallup POll related to party affiliations in 2004...and that translates to Obama's approval ratings today...via every poll?

The dumb just keep getting dumber.

Big Mike said...

@Jason, thanks. I read what Professor Althouse linked to, but then later I was over at "Ace of Spades HQ" and found the link that shows parity. So I came back to add my comment but -- hit tip to Eric -- he had found it first.

Commentators over at RealClearPolitics have suggested that there is a huge gap between approval of Obama as a person vs Obama's policies, and that could explain the parity. Or it could be the effect of Pelosi and Reid. Or the impact of so many tax cheats and other scoff-laws being nominated for senior administration positions. Or some combination.

Or polling error.

But 18 percentage points swing since the week after the election? There's fire under that smoke.

Jen said...

Jeremy:

Sorry I was gone for a bit. I was quaffing Georis from my Riedel stemware.

I have to say, there were some enviable laugh out loud moments here. Thanks!

"And where are these sheltered "communities" where they're nesting and reproducing?"

"Don't let the door hit your fat ass on the way out."

Phew. It hurts just a little bit. So funny!

What is going on with this sock puppet thing? DBQ brought it up again. Was sock puppet on the drinking list?

I can't remember anymore, I'm too blasted from reading the "How Bad Can He Be On Abortion If Notre Dame is Willing to Honor Him." thread.

Big Mike said...

Minor correction. Sorry. The party affiliation gap the week after the election was 17 points. I was thinking of the gap the first week of March, which was 18.

Since then the number of people calling themselves independents stayed about the same (35% vs 34%) but the number of people calling themselves Republicans went from a quarter of the people surveyed to almost a third (25% to 32%) and the number of people calling themselves Democrats declined by six percentage points (38% to 32%).

What I don't understand is what happened in only two months to cause this large a swing -- and even larger swing, mind you, when you look at "leanings."

Hoosier Daddy said...

Anybody who thinks an even number of people consider themselves Republican as Democrat right now...evidently also believe, considering the latest 65% approval rating, that millions of support Barack Obama..

Well that's a nice comfort if you actually put stock in the ability of most Americans to possess the critical thinking skills to think about the questions. 65% may approve of Obama the person but I'll bet even money if you asked those same folks whether we should add to an already crushing national debt, adopt more strict CAFE standards even if it means you have to pay more for your car, pass cap and trade even if it means higher utility bills, pursue universal health care even though Medicare will be insolvent in 8 years I'll betcha you'll get a whole different percentage who approve of those policies.

Jen said...

I still don't understand this problem with the CAFE standards.

If you increase the requirements for fuel efficiency now and the cost of fuel goes up in the future (as it will most certainly do), aren't you preventing people from owning vehicles in the future that they can't afford to run?

This isn't a Ratched type regulation. It's a predictable certainty. We saw it happen last year. People stopped driving. Gas cost too much.

Hoosier Daddy said...

What is going on with this sock puppet thing? DBQ brought it up again. Was sock puppet on the drinking list? .

Well I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but since you're new here I'll share the secret, bear with me this may take some time. Lotsa folks here are regulars both wingnut and moonbat to use the venacular and everyone has a pretty distinct writing style. Here are a few examples of the species which inhabit Althouse:

Alphaliberal (superious moonbatus)doesn't really comment but rather pastes excerpts from HuffPo with at least two links per post.

Revenant superious logicallus is logical, disspassionate, can make a unrefutable point in less than two sentences and is probably the best writer here.

Titus (no category) can't comment without mentioning his rare clumbers or pinching loaves.

hdhouse (insanus moonbatus). Comments like ee cummings on LSD. Capitalization is optional followed by lots of ellipses between what I guess he thinks are sentences, usual nazi reference to anyone right of V. Lenin ending with a ya'betcha.

Then we come to Jeremy (schizophrenus trollus). Jeremy is an interesting study. He doesn't so much as comment as riles up the comment section by tossing out liberal tofu. Jeremy's writing style is generally recognized by an inability to use paragraphs, statements of 'fact' with no links, regular use of the word wingnut and regular requests for fellatio from those he really gets mad at. Jeremy's writing style was identical to that of another who went under the noms de guerre of Luckyoldson, Michael. Pretty much everyone including Stevie Wonder could see Lucky/Michael/Jeremy are all one person. An Unholy Trinity if you will.

Unfortunately you write in almost an identical fashion as Jeremy thus the sock puppet reference. In fairness you haven't requested oral sex from anyone so there's that.

Hoosier Daddy said...

This isn't a Ratched type regulation. It's a predictable certainty. We saw it happen last year. People stopped driving. Gas cost too much..

And the price of oil plummeted. There's that damned supply and demand thing again.

Again, raising CAFE standards are fine and dandy. I just don't want to hear a lot of bitching and whining from the 65% who approve of Obama that they can't afford the car they want and have to pack their families in an oversized cupholder while we sit on our oil because we don't want to disturb the penguins.

Big Mike said...

@Hoosier, it's caribou we don't want to disturb. No penguins in the upper reaches of Alaska. No penguins in the lower reaches of Alaska, for that matter.

I blame Sarah Palin.

Jen said...

Hoosier Daddy:

You forgot C4.

I could hear the Horst Wessel today. That made me laugh.

But thanks for the low down on the people here.

It seems to me that Jeremy does have really funny and intelligent things to say and that just because you disagree with him doesn't mean that he is a schizophrenic troll.

And just because I also dissent frequently doesn't mean that I have a writing style similar to his, or that I am his sock puppet.

However, if you were in our drinking game today you would be equally as blissfully blotto as the two of us are now.

Jen said...

I can't afford the car that I want.
I don't blame GW for my woes. The car I want isn't even that fuel efficient.

But it does have a 3.0 liter inline six-cylinder engine that purrs like a kitten.

*hic*

Hoosier Daddy said...

It seems to me that Jeremy does have really funny and intelligent things to say .

Well I do think its funny when he tells me to blow him.

Jen said...

I haven't been privy to that conversation.

rightwingprof said...

Gallup released party ID poll results yesterday. For the first time since 2005, as many identify as GOP as Dem, so the number of people identifying themselves as GOP has INCREASED. Funny how that translates into "losing people," isn't it? Well, that's what you get for paying attention to WaPo instead of actually looking at the data.

Paddy O. said...

California election update:

5 of 6 ballot measures that would have increased taxes, and otherwise given more money to the legislature, were soundly defeated.

Californian's have refused to give more money.

The one winning measure "1F" barred legislators from getting a pay raise during budget crisis years. Major landslide win.

This was a huge, huge defeat for the Democratic legislature of California, a slap in the face for them.

LA Times has limited coverage so far. Two articles, neither detailing the election totals. One article is on Arnold. The other article is on voters. In an election in which the Democratic leadership of the state is rebuffed, the LA Times focuses its coverage on how it was Arnold and the voters who really lost.

California has, for the last 10 years or more, loved giving money to the government, passing bond measures again and again.

There was massive amounts of money being thrown at supporting these measures, and ads warning how police would be fired, firemen would be fired (a major threat at the beginning of fire season here), schools closed, medical help reduced. All the classic threats.

Californians said, decisively, no more money to the government.

That's a more likely indication of present politics than expression of political affiliation.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ PatCA.

Yup. Just what I said would happen. They are going to threaten to cut "essential" services and welfare etc.

You know WHY the measures were so soundly defeated??

Because THIS time the majority of the people who came out to vote were actual taxpayers and not those who don't pay taxes and freeload on the system. Because the non taxpayers don't really pay that much attention to what is going on they don't take the time to vote. But those who are sick and tired of more more more MORE taxes and getting nothing back do care.

The losers in this election (good) were the Public Employees with their gold plated entitlement plans and the purposely entitled, those who refuse to work, are on drugs and believe that they are also entitled to a free ride. Just like those losers on the train story previously posted. The winners are the rest of us who put our heads down, work, budget, scrimp, save and pay through the nose for the losers.

Go ahead, cut welfare, cut police in high crime areas, turn away illegal aliens from free medicial care, free apartment subsidies, food stamps. Break my heart.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Schwarzenegger's warning did not sway voters, many of whom said they did not trust that the ballot propositions would do much to solve California's budget trouble.

The majority of registered voters didn't bother to vote at all.

Partial results from nearly 70 percent of precincts reporting late Tuesday showed only 19 percent of voters had cast a ballot, according to the secretary of state's office.
Right.. That is the 19% of us who PAY THE TAXES

hdhouse said...

AJ Lynch said...
"Generally when you explore for and locate more of a natural resource like oil or diamonds or natural gas, it exerts a downward influence on prices."

Ahhh AJ intellectually to the rescue once again...sit up in that thar saddle cowpoke and do some thinkin' please.

We cannot drill our way out of this. we don't have the resources. We can't even replenish...or break even. We have no conservation program of merit. We waste incredible amounts of energy due to stiff necked 'free market' mentalities while our petro marketplace and the companies that inhabit them survive with massive federal assistance and political smoothing of the way.

Get a grip on reality please.