April 1, 2009

A terribly painful conversation.

I could only get halfway through. I clicked it off out of of vicarious embarrassment.

UPDATE: Embedded video became unavailable. Try here.

155 comments:

Pogo said...

Mos Def is mostly deaf to facts.

Lyle said...

Sadly, he's considered to be a savant of sorts in the entertainment world. Pathetic.

Fen said...

There's a funnier version with subtitles: "..you agree with me so I'm going to keep talking over you."

Cant find it atm. Maybe someone else will.

ElcubanitoKC said...

He "aksed" a simple question whose answer he didn't really want to hear if it didn't conform to his own narrative.

Bob said...

President Obama, after he spreads the wealth around by stealing it from the wealthy to give to the poor, also plans to spread the intelligence around in the same fashion. Christopher Hitchens and Salman Rushdie will be required to give 10 points of IQ each to help make Mos Def less of a cretin.

Fen said...

will be required to give 10 points of IQ each to help make Mos Def less of a cretin.

I think that only works if you're the same species.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I love the look on the faces of the three other guys. Like they can't believe that they are actually talking to this idiot.

"WTF is Def talking about? Cuba? I thought we were discussing the Taliban?"

"Hmmmm.... maybe if we talk reaaaalllly slowly and repeat ourselves in littler words, he might get it?"

"Ok...let's try again to answer the question he asked......if only he would shut up and quit mumbling over our answers"

"Oh screw it....nevermind"

Our informed electorate (not) on display. I wonder who he voted for and what detailed thought processes led him to chose one candidate over the other.

We are so f*cked as a nation.

traditionalguy said...

Def's act is the totalitarian's answers when questioned:" I say that the question/answer does not arise." The will to power is alive and well in the Black Rap culture. Since the only answer to power as a tactic is a greater power, what will cause 51% of voters in an election to stand up and confirm that we are not a conquered people? We need leadership bad. The Community Organizers using government grants are in full Power Grabbing mode against every weak target they can find.

brreilly said...

I was debating this with a friend the other night - what was he trying to setup with that question, "what is their manifesto, what do they want on a political level?" Was he hoping that they would fire it back his way so that he could expound upon what he believed was their legitimate desire to see American oppression crushed? Or was he thinking that he would lead them to that answer through his brilliant questioning? Or am I missing something?

fcai said...

Crimes have been leveled against people. Yeah, that's right. Try it again in English, Mos Stupid.

PatHMV said...

Why bother even trying to watch a Bill Maher show? The man's a moron and an asshole.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The irony is that if/when AK or the Taliban get their way, Def will be one of the first on the chopping block.

Quayle said...

Hitchens stock just went up another 25% in my estimation of him.

He is a fearless thinker in an age of intellectual and political cowards and crowd baiters.

As a believer in God, I'd rather be surrounded by 100 Christopher Hitchens that tell me I'm completely delusional on that point, than a church full of smooth-faced pious hypocrites and intellectual weaklings that tell me I’m right about God (and everything else.)

cobaltbob said...

I did make it all the way through.

What makes me angriest is that he very likely cancelled out my last vote and will continue to do so in the future.

Fen said...

Yeah, I've been wondering lately if Al Queda has a good dental plan...

Richard Dolan said...

Not painful, just necessary. What Hitchens and Rushdie do here is what Bush never did - he refuses to let the know-nothing get away with slip-sliding from reality. If the Bush years proved anything, it's that leadership requires constant effort to answer and explain, even (perhaps especially) in situations like this. So two cheers for Hitch and Rushdie for insisting on reason and acting like responsible adults even in a setting like this.

In contrast, Maher is pathetic; as always, the smirk gives him away and defines where he's coming from. His audience is, if anything, worse. They want to cheer for the fashionable nitwit and, at points, more or less do so, even though they seem to recognize how foolish he is.

montana urban legend said...

I'm experiencing some vicarious pain myself - for your guys' sake - given my understanding of how horrible this blog is at convincing even reasonable and educated people of what its minions already agree on.

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist. But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion.

Pogo said...

Please, Althouse, do watch the remainder, for Hitchens is a man, an adult, unafraid to confront the ignorant and tell him so.

Maher, on the other hand, remained a completely adolescent wimp.

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist.
Say what?
I knew they existed because they couldn't stop their blathering for the last 8 years.

Are you quite mad?

Quayle said...

But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion.

Your right.

Much more effective to call them minions.

Joaquin said...

PatHMV nails it. Why watch that idiotic program? I have better things to do. Sticking hot needles in my eyes come to mind.

SteveR said...

I wonder what Mos Def thinks about the Bush Doctrine?

Pogo said...

"Sticking hot needles in my eyes come to mind."

Gotta admit though, Hitchens is fun to watch. He eviscerates folks, right and left. He's a fool on religion, I think, vainly trying to fill that God-sized emptiness within, but he is fair and intelligent about most things.

And ruthless. I'd love to see him interview Obama.

Maher is just pathetic.

ElcubanitoKC said...

montana urban legend said...
I'm experiencing some vicarious pain myself - for your guys' sake - given my understanding of how horrible this blog is at convincing even reasonable and educated people of what its minions already agree on.

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist. But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion.

10:24 AM


I am so sorry, and this may be a failure on my part, but what exactly do you mean by this? Whose guy? My guy? His guy? Her guy? The professor's guy? I may not be educated and reasonable enough to understand this, so I ask you kindly to explain it.

Thanks

Fen said...

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist.

It quite an experience to come to terms with the fact that people like Mos Def even exist. Darwin has been slacking.

But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion

Sometimes a nazi really is a nazi. And sometimes stupid really is stupid.

AJ Lynch said...

It pisses me off when dumb, uninformed people try to be clever by playing even dumber.

Fen said...

I wonder what Mos Def thinks about the Bush Doctrine?

Mos Def: "I got mine in Liberal Arts, with a Doctrine in Ebonics."

Franco said...

Painful only if you identify with this ignorant bully.

Fen said...

/via wiki, black supremist and islamic

"His music has also made reference to his Islamic faith, and his contention that black artists receive little credit for their role in the birth of rock and roll.

...The song has garnered controversy over its veiled reference to Israeli American record executive Lyor Cohen (the "tall Israeli" who then was head of the The Island Def Jam Music Group[citation needed]).

...Mos Def and Immortal Technique released a similarly controversial song, "Bin Laden" in 2004, which blamed the Reagan Doctrine and President George W. Bush for the September 11, 2001 attacks.

...In September 2005, Mos Def released the single "Katrina Clap," renamed "Dollar Day" for True Magic, (utilizing the instrumental for New Orleans rappers UTP's "Nolia Clap"). The song is a criticism of the Bush administration's response to Hurricane Katrina.

...On September 7, 2007, Mos Def appeared on Real Time with Bill Maher where he spoke about racism against African Americans, citing the government response to Hurricane Katrina, the Jena Six and the murder conviction of Mumia Abu-Jamal. Mos Def also displayed his deep skepticism, mentioning that Al-Qaeda was not responsible for 9/11, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and that Al-Qaeda is not responsible for as much terrorism as they are portrayed to be"

Palladian said...

"It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist."

Yes, it is terribly painful for me to come to terms with the fact that stupid inarticulate people with ridiculously stupid views even exist.

And then you show up, another painful reminder.

Fen said...

So tell me Ann: you're taking over Bill Maher's little classroom. Do you pass Mos Def or fail him? And do you wonder how on earth he passed all those prerequisite courses?

TMink said...

Richard wrote: "They want to cheer for the fashionable nitwit"

Yep. We have gone from spot the looney to celebrate the looney.

Trey

TMink said...

urban legend 
–noun a modern story of obscure origin and with little or no supporting evidence that spreads spontaneously in varying forms

That about sums it up.

Trey

Palladian said...

Un- or under-educated poor Americans, which includes a significant percentage of black Americans, have unfortunately been easy quarry for all manner of con artists, psychopathic conspiracy theorists, socialists, communists, religious radicals and other sociopaths. They play off of their victim's underdeveloped critical thinking skills and their real and imagined grievances in order to manipulate them. How do you think that Al Sharpton, Oprah, Megachurches and the Democrat party have gotten so far?

Mr. Forward said...

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything."
Alexander Hamilton

Dust Bunny Queen said...

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist. But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion.

1. I rarely agree with you but I have never called you a moron or nitwit. In fact I think you are probably quite intelligent .....asshole is in a completly different category.

2. Ooooh .... so subtle the use of y'all to indicate that if we think that Def is less than an informed voter, we must be racists.

3. Mos Def has views?

Fen said...

Un- or under-educated poor Americans, which includes a significant percentage of black Americans, have unfortunately been easy quarry for all manner of con artists, psychopathic conspiracy theorists, socialists, communists, religious radicals and other sociopaths.

And we're incubating them with Islamic prophets in our prison system. Brilliant.

Bissage said...

I’d never before heard of Mr. Def but I find his name an intriguing puzzle.

I’m guessing that “Mos” has something to do with Charlton Heston or maybe semiconductors or maybe even that stuff that grows on the north side of a tree.

The “Def” part might have something to do with national security or possibly leopards wearing spandex pants.

While I'm at it, I might just as well venture to guess that he is both rich and famous.

Lem said...

What are Al-Qaeda’s political aims?

Aside from ignorance most definitely in display, was Mostdef’s possible lead in to a scenario where the Unites States could most definitely talk to Al Qaeda.

This was what Hitchens saw and heard and thank God would not just sit by and allow someone to (if not most definitely) suggest that the deaths of over 3000 Americans might someday be seen as the result of mere political aims.

Pogo said...

Statism is the opiate of the people.

Every fool adores a Fascist,
The boot in the face, the brute
And a love of the rack and the screw.

MadisonMan said...

When I see Mos in a name, I think Mos Eisely, most definitely.

I thought the composition of the panel -- Hitchens, Rushdie, MosDef, and Maher -- was interesting, so kudos to Maher for putting it together. Not interesting enough for me to throw away 9 minutes watching it, however (especially since I just watched AI!)

PatHMV said...

Palladian... well said, regarding the snake oil which has been sold so often to the poorest and least educated segments of our society.

Fen said...

Here's the kicker - Mo Def doesn't know AQ's political aims, while maintaining they were not responsible for 9-11...

So not ignorant, but stupid.

EDH said...

My absolute favorite Hitch moment on Bill Maher.

traditionalguy said...

Montana urban legend... The act of this experienced performer was intentional from start to finish. That is what is scary. He is no moron and no idiot. Def plays a role for his audience of a Black person who believes in no truth apart from "we win by power". After 20 years of fawning acceptance of that Rebellion In Your Face attitude, like Maher tried to do here, there is no use reasoning with the Black Power practitioners. There will have to be a stand and fight point. The Dems and President Obama's advisors use this Rebellion of Bad Blacks just like Saudi Arabia uses the rebellion of Al Queada. Good cop vs. Bad cop. do you want Def's attitude or do you give up to us reasonable and smiling guys who are politely demanding your money, or your life may be turned over to Def's Gang.

William said...

I don't mean this in a Socratic sense. People are really stupid. Bill Maher thinks that he is funnier than the average Republican and that, therefore, that makes him brilliant. Up until the point that there were mass demonstrations in Hyde Park of Muslims calling for his murder, Rushdie thought that all evil in England was created by Thatcher's policies. And Hitchens blew the lid off the scandal that Mother Theresa's followers were sprinkling water on the foreheads of dying lepers. Does he still believe that Trotsky is the last, best hope for humanity? It is good to see this panel of experts agree that Mos Def is a jerk. They all know that poo should be used as a facial decoration and not as a breakfast food. How stupid of Mos Def!

Lem said...

I just want to ask a question.
What were governor Wallace’s political aims again... ;)

TMink said...

"So not ignorant, but stupid."

I would change that to "So not only ignorant, but stupid."

Trey

TRO said...

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist.

What, you really think we didn't know liberals exist?

Peter V. Bella said...

...Black Rap culture.

Please do not use culture with rap or Black rap. There is no such thing as Black Rap Culture. All it does is promote a sub-culture of hatred, racism, mysogyny, and it only appeals to the ignorant, the stupid, and sub humans.

TMink said...

From Wikipedia. "Mos Def also displayed his deep skepticism, mentioning that Al-Qaeda was not responsible for 9/11, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and that Al-Qaeda is not responsible for as much terrorism as they are portrayed to be.[33] He appeared on Real Time again on March 24, 2009, and spoke at length on the risk of nuclear weapons. He suggested that we should lead by example and follow through on Gorbachev and pursue disarmament talks. He called Osama Bin Ladin a "mythical figure" and that we should focus more on our own people."

Bill just had him on because he hates Bush. That he is a moron is well beside the point.

Trey

BJM said...

William's on to something, Maher set up Rushdie and Hitchins, they're being mocked, not Mos Def. He's thoroughly enjoying the dynamics he set in motion.

Maher understands his audience, they want bread and circus.

However one guesses that in the dark of night of his soul; Maher longs to be accepted as an intellectual equal by the likes of Rushdie and Hitch. However he'll settle for adoration of the mob, for it is now in the US as it was in Rome, whomever controls the mob, controls the political discourse.

montana urban legend said...

Well, thanks to traditionalguy for at least attempting a coherent response - and perhaps the most meaningful one at that.

DBQ's second point is a bit of a paranoid projection, and of course her first point is obviated by classy guys like Palladian in his fatuous attempt at wit. Of course, he is the one who declared that he contracted herpes from my father. I should forgive him for such disgusting comments though - as I understand that's the way affections are won and demonstrated in certain families.

Now Quayle, I could be wrong here. But I suspect that calling someone a member of a minion is a little less insulting to the average person than calling him "stupid" or an "asshole". Does the distinction really seem that subtle to you?

And of course, none of these responses have anything do with the actual point - which is that if Mos Def was being serious, (as Hitchens certainly was), then his views are obviously a problem that might be dealt with more effectively than with shunning, etc. But if even my merely pointing that out should trigger some of the responses here that it has, you can see why it's not a surprise to me that such views exist. Of course, your hero Hitchens knows better.

And BTW, once one comes to terms with something, being reminded of it shouldn't be painful. People that pride themselves on knowing only articulate and intelligent people should try being coherent every now and then.

PatCA said...

I agree with Richard Dolan and others: this is instructive of what passes for political discourse these days. Mos Def is after all "just raising the questions" and expecting no follow up, which is the custom and practice of media mavens today.

Kudos to Hitchens for not chickening out. He ought to moderate Meet the Press. No one would dare to appear.

holdfast said...

"It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist. But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing"

I disagree with his beliefs. I call him a nitwit for his gross inability to articulate those beliefs in something approximating English.

To quote an Jules, a great African American character "English motherf**ker. Do you speak it?"

Lyle said...

Pat,

No kidding about Hitchens. He'd scare off a lot of people. You can tell Rushdie couldn't really gather the fortitude to knock Mos Def too hard.

Skyler said...

The video is no longer available. Can someone share what was in it for those of us who couldn't see?

TRO said...

The video is no longer available. Can someone share what was in it for those of us who couldn't see?

Hitchens, Rushdie, and even Maher near the end try to explain the stated goals of Al Quaeda and the Taliban while Mos Def drools.

Methadras said...

montana urban legend said...

I'm experiencing some vicarious pain myself - for your guys' sake - given my understanding of how horrible this blog is at convincing even reasonable and educated people of what its minions already agree on.

It must be quite an experience for y'all to come to terms with the fact that people with Mos Def's views even exist. But you can always call people you disagree with "moron" and "asshole". And "nitwit". I understand that's a very effective way of influencing opinion.


It's not the fact that Mr. Def's view exists, it's the fact that it exists in such a way as to be articulated by him. Even moreso, some would say the fact that it exists doesn't make it a legitimate form of thought or even a legitimate political view. I'm in that camp because in all honesty, his political opinion isn't rooted in fact, it's rooted in a paranoid delusion. That alone makes it suspect and reinforces the idea that not every thought or concept is valid much less worthy of being articulated.

Peter V. Bella said...

Mo Def, Bill Mahr, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews; not one iota of intelligence. But they sure make people laugh.

It is sad, really, that morons, cretins, and idiots are given a platform. It must be a nod by the media and entertainment industry to Americans with Disabilities; diversity does not always have merrit.

Lem said...

MosDef probably, maybe... most definitely had no clue he was sitting next to a man under threat of death for writing a book.

Chip Ahoy said...

This is all so very odd, coming as it does from a network that itself was cowed into blacking out portions of SouthPark lest their building be bombed by exactly they knew who -- a very credible fear.

Mos Def learned a new word, "manifesto," and was eager to spring that new word on intellectuals he knew actually do read such things. If he understood what it meant he would have already known what the Taliban and Al Quaeda manifesto are, one is on display through their actions and the other vocally restated every time they issue a fresh video through Al Jazeera. He wanted to leave the impression that he'd read their manifestos if he could just find them somewhere online. He can't find them. Therefore, don't exist. Therefore, the basis for a manifesto doesn't exist, and that implies these are innocent people just trying to live their lives and we'd have no conflict were it not for our interference with their lovely goat-hearding flower gardening selves. The word manifesto was his single point he had hoped to be his big applause line so he kept returning to it even so far as to overtalk the answer he asked for as it was being delivered to him by the best minds available. The host grins that horse shit-eating grin. He sees into another season.

Pish Tosh.

I actually drop IQ points whenever I give this horse shit my attention. Bill Maher was the impetus for me to cancell my HBO subscription, to avoid Politically Incorrect when it transmutted into Politically Correct, and yet in my wandering I've been presented five times with this clip of the television show by the same host that's even worse, even more degraded. See what I go through, People, to protect my poor suffering brain?

I know our hostess put it here precisely because the conversation is indeed painful. It's also pathetic and sad. It's the little sadist in her, no?

Hazy Dave said...

All he's tryin' to say is, no bin Laden never made him ride in da back of da bus, is all. Know whaddamean?

montana urban legend said...

It was necessary for Bill to change the name of his show, you see. Political correctness might have been an annyoing thing in the 1990s, but in this decade political incompetence was an even bigger problem. Hence the name "Real Time". Times change - for some people at least.

That, and he got booted off network for expressing the same sentiments that conservative pundit Dinesh D'Souza did regarding the 9/11 hijackers. A guy's got to make a living.

Jon said...

cobaltbob said: "What makes me angriest is that he very likely cancelled out my last vote and will continue to do so in the future."

Fortunately, Mos Def doesn't live in a swing state, so his vote doesn't matter.

2yellowdogs said...

You have to love watching Hitchens work. He doesn't suffer fools gladly and rips them new ones when they attempt to operate on the same level without bothering to prepare.

I never watch Maher as I find him insufferable. But has there ever been a better example of someone trying to operate so totally out of their depth?

LordSomber said...

"Christopher Hitchens and Salman Rushdie will be required to give 10 points of IQ each to help make Mos Def less of a cretin."

If only it were that easy to "spread the smarts around."

It appears Mr. Def is "wrong on both sides."

Lem said...

I see you all notice my throw away "thank God for Hitch" line..

Sheer genius ;)

I got get a cam so you all can look at me.

Did I tell you I lived in France ;)

traditionalguy said...

Def's act was the display of a King's power. He lets everyone know that he is infallible and not suject to Debating protocols since he has the Power and the King's word is law. The question is whether he gets the customary pass given "stupid morons" because the better educated white and asian people owe him a free pass. The British debater said NO WAY, but the American media whore winked and shuffled a "yes your Highness". The election of Obama was supposed to stop that sort of racial pass. We still need a strong and courageous leadership to set things back to a level playing field. I suggest David Petraeus with respected credentials. Palin was strong too, but the "ridicule persona"of her swallowed by the NPR listening and Credentialed Classes has cut the strong Palin's achille's heel. That's why Tina Fey was given award applause at the Oscars. Opinion leaders are made or are ridiculed to a quick political death by our activist Media.

peter hoh said...

Speaking of things you can't get through, check out the third response to this post at Prince Gomolvilas's blog.

Chip Ahoy said...

Mos Def's premise that all political units publish a written manifesto is patently false. Any syllogism built from that premise is flawed. He wished the like-minded audience, eager to agree, to believe he would read the Taliban and Al Quaeda manefesto if he could just find one. This assumed he looked, which he probably did not, and would carefully read it, which he probably would not even if it were present to him, which it was.

But I love my brothers and I'm interested in their education and their satisfaction. So, Mos Def please allow me to assist your search, for I am skilled in this area. You can see for yourself what is written and what is not written, what is spoken, and what is acted out.

Let me suggest typing these strings into your favorite search engine. That would be type the words into the little empty box at the top right of the screen, or the empty box following the big colorful words Google or some such.

+taliban +manifesto

or

+al quaeda +manifesto

The results at the top of the list of results are often the best but not always, so you might have to read more than one page or you might have to refine your search. Say, for example, you keep getting pages about Taliban and manifestos but also with the name Bush and you don't want to ever see that name Bush in the things you read, then you can change search parameters to +taliban +manifesto -bush

I hope this helps in some way because it wouldn't do having our influential performing artists out there spreading misinformed and malinformed nonsense to impressionable young minds. Not you, of course, but best to be prepared.

TMink said...

Peter, an impressive artifact of psychosis indeed.

Trey - who can't believe you read the whole thing 8)

Lem said...

The best thing coming out of this is that hopefully idiots will think twice b4 appearing on talking heads shows like this….

April fools !

srfwotb said...

Me neither. I tried last night early in the am when I couldn't sleep and I was willing to listen to anything. At times I find listening to Hitch's unilateral smackdowns of others who either can't or won't fight back quite painful - so I thought I would enjoy someone talking over him / taking him on.

But, no. No, I didn't. It wasn't exactly the repartee rally I was hoping for.

The subtitled version is down due to copyright claims.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Lem, los cubanos somos los que hablamos mierda, no quieras competir, chico :P

Lem said...

Lem, los cubanos somos los que hablamos mierda, no quieras competir, chico :P

I’m tempted to say Mosdef never left his Eddie Bunker character from 16 blocks (2006).

But since I must also allow for the possibility that he never got in character for the movie … I just wont bring it up ;)

Ese video tiene material para abastecer a Africa ;)

Lem said...

Ese video tiene mas material que Fidel ;)

Kirk Parker said...

"his contention that black artists receive little credit for their role in the birth of rock and roll"

Black artists involved with the birth of rock and roll? Really?? Why have I never heard of this before???

Fen said...

Black artists involved with the birth of rock and roll? Really?? Why have I never heard of this before???

You raise a good point. We are all woefully ignorant of the many contributions of blacks to our society. What we need is to, like, set aside an entire month where diversity experts can preach at us about black history. Just for the Africans, mind you, not the Asians or Italians or Irish or hispanics.

ElcubanitoKC said...

OK, Lem, you win LOL

jdeeripper said...

Mrs. Meade should give The Crack Emcee a tag on this one.

So Bill Maher gave the rap kid air time because he wanted:

1. to appeal to the younger, black, rap hip hop crowd that doesn't usually watch his show?

2. to degrade Rushdie and Hitchens by linking them with this dope?

3. to give the mostly educated White liberals who watch his show a feeling of racial/cultural superiority in relation to an ignorant, irrational black male?

4. get a good laugh watching a monkey fling his poo at the unsuspecting visitors who got too close to the monkey's cage?

peter hoh said...

Ta-Nehisi Coates has posted a thoughtful response to this clip.

He writes: I think Christopher Hitchens, rightfully, sonned him. As a Mos Def fan, and member of the hip-hop generation (whatever that means) I felt embarrassed. That's probably not my right, but I felt that way. Here's where it gets really weird, I held one person responsible for the whole debacle--Cornel West.

Skyler said...

traditionalguy wrote: The election of Obama was supposed to stop that sort of racial pass.

No, the election of Obama was BECAUSE of this sort of racial pass.

John Lynch said...

There IS a an Al Qeada manifesto. Many of them. There's the 1998 declaration of war on the US, listing their grievances. Zawahiri has written a lot of ideological justification for what they are doing. It's a google search away.

If we just listen to what the enemy is saying, instead of projecting our own reasons for why we'd be fighting in their place, then we'd understand the war much better.

The war is not an extension of domestic political debate. The enemy is not just another critic of US foreign policy.

garage mahal said...

Black artists involved with the birth of rock and roll? Really?? Why have I never heard of this before???

Sure. Elvis, Buddy Holly.....they grew up listening to early black blues/jazz musicians. You can't escape their influence if you listen. And if you listen real closely, marching societies follow the beat, the marched upon react to the beat.

Just think without blacks - we'd still be listening to hideous marching music and watching pasty short white guys throwing up hook shots from 40 feet.

AllenS said...

Good points, garage. Imagine a prison population with 40% fewer inmates.

Jeremy said...

Why would anyone care what Mos Def thinks about such matters? He's been on the Maher show before and is far from an intellectual (his 9/11 rant is nuts), and Maher has never represented his show as some kind of real "news" show.(I'm assuming many here have seen his closing bit.)

He is, in most instances a flaming liberal, does a monologue, has guests that range from top politicos to comedic morons and anybody who takes what he or many of his guests have to say as being serious are kidding themselves. (Joe the Plumber is scheduled guest this Friday)

As for Hitchens, I've heard him also say some interesting and insightful things, but have also heard him say things that, as Ann says; were "painful" to hear.

If you want to hear something truly disgusting, here's something Rush Limbaugh said today:

Relating to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's introduction of our President: If he keeps "slobbering" over President Barack Obama, he'll "come down with anal poisoning and may die from it."

Nice.

Jeremy said...

Skyler said..."No, the election of Obama was BECAUSE of this sort of racial pass."

I don't understand your logic.

Tibore said...

I refuse to watch that video. Did Mos Def try to spew truther crack? If he did, he chose the wrong venue for it; say what you want about Maher, and I'll agree with it, but one area he and I aren't apart on is what we both think about 9/11 conspiracy addicts. Truthers are fools.

Fen said...

Jeremy: Why would anyone care what Mos Def thinks about such matters?

Your kind obviously does. Else, why would the entertainment biz keep trotting out these ignorant "artists". They do it because you have an appetite to be considered part of the cool hip crowd that beleives x. Mo Def may be a fool, but you are the target audience...

Relating to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's introduction of our President: If he keeps "slobbering" over President Barack Obama -

Yes, he's saying that Brown is a kiss ass today. And yes, we know how "outraged" you guys are about Rush's "intolerant" langauge. Now if we could just get you to unclench your pearls and extend the same standards to radical Islam.

Eddie said...

Imagine the hostility that would be unleashed against a conservative host who put together a panel like that. It is a sign of how much Maher thinks himself so far above suspicion that he can play to some of our worst racial stereotypes.

dick said...

Thanks for posting that column by Ta-Nehisi Coates. Very interesting. I do have a problem with her, though. She talks as if the only village is in the ghetto. Sorry but there are villages all over the place. I grew up in a small farming/industrial town in the Midwest and I can assure you that there was a definite village to teach us how to deal with life. I now live in a neighborhood in Queens with a lot of Chinese, Sikhs, PR, etc and I can assure you that there is a definite village there as well. The problem is the success of the village and how well the adults deal with the village concept itself. If the adults don't stand for anything then the young will not either unless you become very lucky.

She does have a valid point that the village elders have to deal with the youth. I think that is where a lot of the problems with the various ethnic groups stem from. If you look at the various Asian ethnic groups, the adults are very firm in what they expect and what they will not accept and their youth are for the most part very successful. The other ethnic groups can learn a lot from them.

jr565 said...

Mos Def is a text book antiintellectual. He's absolutely certain that his conspiracy theories are the truth, and I'm sure he's also a truther and is convinced that the govt brought down 6WTC and that fire doesn't melt steel or whatever the stupid talking point was.
All he has though is his paranoia, not one scintilla of fact. He says he doesn't trust the governments translation of OBL's words and is agnostic therefore about OBL's intent. Yet even if you don't trust the govt's translation its not as if he can't get an alternative translation. Think how easy it would be for someone to refute the govts translation if it fact it weren't true, simply by reading the correct translation and showing that the translation offered by the govt was incorrect.
Yet such alternative translations are never forthcoming.

Yet Mos can get on tv and speak with certainty about how the govt is wrong or lying in their characterization and the audience eats it up. Sadly, Mos Def is probably one of the more informed of the conspiracy theorists, and considering his lack of intellect that really says a lot about those cheering for him.

Peter V. Bella said...

Jeremy said...
Rush blah blah blah...

Keith Olbermann has spewed rabid and vicious insults like a dog that should be put down and continues to do so. No criticism there. Hmmm. Chris Matthews gushes like a hormone raging teenage girl at a concert. No criticism there. Hmmm.

I guess your idiots are the gooood insulting idiots. Everyone else is evil.

Only your idiots have the right to criticize and insult and the right to free speech. Only Obama is immune form insult and criticism. Everyone else is fair game. I guess we are living in fascist AmeriKa.

Duscany said...

If Mos Def was only "asking a simple question" (what was Al Qaeda's objective) one wonders why he hadn't bothered to set aside 15 minutes to find the answer in all the years since 9-11.

What is more appalling is that the audience was clearly on Mos Def's side (probably because he had a louder voice, more dominating manner and kept making all these self-congratulatory statements about "thinking for myself.") Not only does Mos Def not think for himself he apparently doesn't think at all.

Peter V. Bella said...

Not only does Mos Def not think for himself he apparently doesn't think at all.

He thinks. Everytime cash lands in his account he thinks how stupid people are to buy his music.

Freeman Hunt said...

Relating to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's introduction of our President: If he keeps "slobbering" over President Barack Obama, he'll "come down with anal poisoning and may die from it."

Heh.

David said...

1. Was it just an act? It didn't seem to be an act but we will never know for sure.

2. Assuming as I do that he is not putting on an act, he is actually a nihilist. He believes nothing. He assumes that everything is a lie.

3. Hitch was wasting his breath. He probably knew that after a few moments but could not stop himself.

4. Rusdie had the best reaction: silence. He knew that anything he said would just amplify the nonsense.

5. The notion of Mr. Def that all facts are unreliable is a form of defense mechanism. If you reject the veracity of any of the facts relating to the subject of discussion, you can't be held to any standard in how you articulate yourself. It works for Mr. Def to his audience, as evidenced by the outbursts of applause.

A pathetic performance. Also a sad reminder that the Obama Presidency is not the marker of African American progress that we would like it to be, Mos Def and many like him are still the true heroes of many young African Americans, who like him reject any of the intellectual techniques that are needed in today's world (unless you are rap royalty.)

David said...

I went back and looked at some other videos of Mos Def, including a previous Maher appearance with Kayne West, and some raps not to music that made it possible to understand the words.

There's no doubt in my mind that he's playing us. He may or may not believe some of this shit (9/11 and inside job, police want to kill African Americans, etc. etc.) but basically he's just playing to an audience and trying to provoke people like Hitch (and all of us here.)

Our reaction gives him more street cred, which helps him sell more songs and pile up more money.

Are there any African American public figures other than poor, lonely, brave Bill Cosby who will stand up to this? Doesn't seem so. What a sad situation.

somefeller said...

Relating to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's introduction of our President: If he keeps "slobbering" over President Barack Obama, he'll "come down with anal poisoning and may die from it."

Another example of that great wit and powerful ideas that liberals are supposed to be impressed with, I suppose. All class, that Rush Limbaugh. And his fans.

garage mahal said...

Are there any African American public figures other than poor, lonely, brave Bill Cosby who will stand up to this? Doesn't seem so. What a sad situation.

What about the President of the United States? Mos Def definitely isn't more crazy than people like Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson who reach [or reached] millions of people every day.

Seven Machos said...

David -- You could be right. If so, brilliant and good for Mos Def.

Also, and I tread carefully here, I think you want to be careful lumping black people like that. Harold Ford. LeBron James. None of them are doing that schtick. Meanwhile, Rosie O'Donnell -- a terribly white person -- is. I think we need to move beyond the idea that black people have to stand up for things or not because they are black.

David said...

Here's what Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote in her blog about this. I had never hear of her before but thought it made some sense.

The other thing I learned in the conscious community was the value of critical thinking. The idea was that you live in a world where the Tuskegee experiments actually happened, where the FBI did plot to destroy the Panthers, where J. Edgar Hoover terrorized black leaders from Garvey to Huey Newton. In that vein, you should be skeptical of what you see and hear. This is the perspective of Mos is coming from. (Note the Assata reference.) But here's the thing--if you really get that message, it ultimately leads you to be critical, not just of the larger white narrative, but of the narrative put forth by those around you.

So here's the deal--I was was a history major at Howard University. I came to that school believing very much in an Afrocentric view of history. From that perspective, my first semester was just devastating. I had a professor, Dr. Linda Heywood, who specialized in taking on kids like me (the ones who believed ancient Egypt built fighter jets) and forcing us to face facts. She was, of course, a trained historian who was used to debating kids like me, and for every Chancellor Williams or Diop I whipped out, she had a David Brion Davis or a Eugene Genovese.

I couldn't escape by dismissing her as part of a white plot--she was not just a black woman, but a black woman with a PhD in African History, who was teaching at the most storied black university in the country. I couldn't attack her street cred, and so I had to engage the argument. I found her infuriating--which led me to take two more classes from her. A buddy of mine recalls the most poignant moment for us under her tutelage. At the end of a particularly debilitating lecture, she looked at us and said, "So with all the evidence I've given you, explain to me why blacks are not inferior to whites."

She didn't believe that of course. The point was preparation for what we'd encounter out in the world. Here is thing--my best professors at Howard (and there were many) knew what those of us who fashioned ourselves budding intellectuals would have to debate people who did not believe that it took a village, people who'd gone to the best schools in the world, and who were armed with the latest facts and science, and Ma'at would not save us. We could not hide behind myth--even if our opponents could. We were black. We had to be better than they'd heard.

I watched that clip of Mos Def, and thought back to my own rather tortured relationship with my past. I guess I'm a bit narcissistic. But you guys already know that. Still, I couldn't help but feel that someone should have prepared him, should have made him better than what Christopher Hitchens had heard. That people who loved him should have pulled him aside after his last appearance, and said "Like it or not, you represent us. You can't lean on myth and paranoia. You do a disservice to yourself, and to black people, when you do."


I spent a good part of today in the seedier African American section of Savannah, Ga. I left feeling angry and frustrated that such dilapidated and debilitating places seem not to improve. I was thinking about working for Head Start in Pittsburgh and Ann Arbor in the mid 1960's and the fact that education has not improved at all for so many African Americans since then.

There are many reasons why this is so, but quite a few of these reasons come right out of the African American community itself. Mos Def is an example of this. Mos Def is just making things worse.

Seven Machos said...

Somefeller -- Unlike mean like the classy lefty rabblerousers on television and radio?

Seven Machos said...

Again, David, I think the concept of any kind of African American community is inherently ghettoizing. We'll never get to true equality in this country until we stop speaking about any kind of black togetherness. There's an implied separation there, and it's nothing but bad.

Just let Mos Def make his money.

Lem said...

It may be pretentious of me to say this but I'm going to say it any way.

I want to remind you people that we are being monitored by the Ezra Kleins of the world trying to impune the reputation of this blog with calumny and lies since they cant do it any other way.

When I brought up Africa earlier in the tread it was in the context of volume, for comedic effect, not skin color or anything of the kind.

If I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.

I dont want the professor to have to close the comment sections again on my account.

Thanks

(had this being an actual emergency ;)

Seven Machos said...

Ezra Klein -- If you are here: please get plastic surgery to correct your Jokerized face. Thank you.

somefeller said...

The carnival barker wing of liberalism isn't generally lionized as being examples of the best voices talking about first principles and policy in the country today. Also, there isn't anyone on the more histrionic wing of the left that has the fan base among Democratic activists that Limbaugh or Glenn Beck have on the other side. That's one of the many benefits of being part of the cultural elite, I guess.

Seven Machos said...

Right, Feller. That's why fat ass Michael Moore's movies all failed.

By the way, who is really doing the lionization here? I don't think it's the right who is constantly harping on the power of Rush Limbaugh. In fact, dude, you bring him up so much that any reasonable person would conclude that you are obsessed with the man.

Help is available.

David said...

Garage: I had not noticed it when Obama came out and said that Mos Def was wrong when he asserted that 9/11 was an inside job.

Do I really have to mention Obama and Harold Ford every time I say something critical about a black person or black culture, just to reassure everyone that I'm not a racist?

If that's a rule, I refuse to follow it.

Yeah, of course African Americans have had the very short end of the stick. Now that we've established that, tell the African American kids to get over it. Deal with it. You can walk without the crutch. Throw it away. Take responsibility for your own life. You aren't the only person or group that has to overcome hardship. Make we shall overcome a personal plan of action, not a song.

Many African Americans do just that. But why are so many young men acting out hopelessness? Why do so many young women allow themselves to be impregnated by boys they know will not support the children? Why can't the elders in the village that Ms. Coates talks about get through to these kids? I think people like Mos Def have something to do with it.

Seven Machos said...

There's a lot of white kids strung out on crystal meth and losing their teeth. No hope. No future.

Just so you know.

somefeller said...

Actually, I don't discuss Limbaugh much, here or elsewhere. I tend to think about more interesting topics. When I have discussed him here, it's generally been because he is a subject of conversation in the comment box. Also, the Andrew Klavan piece I cited, which was linked to and quoted favorably all over the conservative blogosphere when it came out, sure sounds like someone lionizing Limbaugh as a great intellect, wit and leader. But nice try.

Seven Machos said...

These boneheaded conservatives need to stop listening to radio personalities and start listening to you, Feller.

Oligonicella said...

David --

3. Hitch was wasting his breath. He probably knew that after a few moments but could not stop himself.

Hitch wasn't speaking to Mo, he was offering intelligence to the audience.

"4. Rusdie had the best reaction: silence. He knew that anything he said would just amplify the nonsense."

I disagree. People like Mo, Al and Tali all flourish when others don't call down their inanity. Silence is tarnishing.

somefeller said...

That might be a good idea, Seven. But if I can't get them to see the light, I'd at least point them towards people like David Frum or Rod Dreher to read some intelligent contemporary conservative commentary, or maybe suggest a little reading of Russell Kirk or an issue of "Modern Age", rather than having them spend a few hours with Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity. You might be on to something here.

jdeeripper said...

Seven Machos said...Ezra Klein -- If you are here: please get plastic surgery to correct your Jokerized face. Thank you.

Could you please refrain from making anti-semitic slurs on this site? If you must engage in age old Jew hating by referencing stereotypically negative aspects of Jewish physiognomy you should consider doing it on your own site.

The "Jokerized face" comment was particularly gratuitous in it's coded anti-semitic nature.

David said...Why can't the elders in the village that Ms. Coates talks about get through to these kids?

I understand that bringing up gender might contribute to inequality, separateness and ghettoization and that is nothing but bad but Coates is a guy not a Ms.

peter hoh said...

FYI, David and Dick, Ta-Nehisi Coates is a "he," not a "she."

Chip Ahoy said...

Wow, David, that is an awesome post back there at 8:34. Thank you for that. I had to look up those four people Ta-Nehisi Coates mentioned.

David said...

Peter: Just shows how gender neutral (or out of it) I am.

Seven Machos said...
There's a lot of white kids strung out on crystal meth and losing their teeth. No hope. No future.

Just so you know.


I'm so glad you told me that. I would have had no idea, even though about half my family live in small midwestern towns, where--I've learned only since you alerted me--the meth labs are a wee bit of a problem.

The topic was Mos Def, a young black man whose primary audience is young black people. And I had spent the day in a rough and depressed black neighborhood. Can't imagine why I forgot to throw in a evenhanded paragraph talking about white kids on meth.

Seven Machos said...

Feller -- For the record, I often can't stand listening to Limbaugh, and I definitely believe he should banish callers.

That said, it would mean a lot to me if you would admit that there are plenty of blowhards on the left. Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore. Most everyone at The Nation and Daily Kos. There are others. I don't think those people are exactly trying to keep their audiences down.

Seven Machos said...

David -- My point is that nobody talks about white people as a group. I think it's bad for blacks and whites to talk about blacks as some sort of group. To the extent that it happens, it is a recipe for continued marginalization.

garage mahal said...

Garage: I had not noticed it when Obama came out and said that Mos Def was wrong when he asserted that 9/11 was an inside job.

I hadn't noticed that Bill Cosby had either, but you asked if Cosby was only black public figure to "stand up to this", which I presumed you meant prominent blacks speaking to the black community critically. Which Obama has done repeatedly.

David said...

I agree that Obama has made quite a number of "suck it up" comments to black audiences. But I'm pretty sure he has not been willing to take on asinine comments from people like Mos Def on a particular basis. Nor should he, in my opinion. It's below his pay grade.

I think Obama looked unpresidential in commenting on Limbaugh, and would if he commented on Mos Def.

What prominent black has taken on Mos Def's outrageous statements? I learned one: Ta-nehisi Coates. If he's not prominent, he should be.

Note to Mr. Coates: apologies for the gender blunder.

somefeller said...

I think I made it clear that there are blowhards on the left by referring to "the carnival barker wing of liberalism". However, that wing isn't nearly as strong on the left as its counterpart is on the right, and that's the key point. You shall know them by their fruits. Neither Keith Olbermann nor Michael Moore has anywhere near the level of popularity and support among liberals as Limbaugh or Beck do among conservatives (see, e.g.: the aftereffects, or lack thereof, of Ben Affleck on SNL mocking Olbermann vs. the recent kowtowing of Michael Steele and others to Limbaugh for daring to criticize him), and I wouldn't compare Katrina Vanden Heuvel to Sean Hannity. And as far as Daily Kos goes, Kos himself is pretty much of a standard-issue Sunday morning talkshow commentator these days, and I'd gladly compare the recommended diaries there to those at Redstate.com any day.

David said...

"I wouldn't compare Katrina Vanden Heuvel to Sean Hannity."

I will.

Arrogant? Check.

Smug? Check.

Glib? Check.

Completely predictable? Check.

Utterly infuriates the other side? Check.

No similarities here.

Seven Machos said...

Doesn't know who her own representative is. Check.

Peter V. Bella said...

jdeeripper

Ezra Klein should get plastic surgery to eliminate his clown face. He should also get a lobotomy. It would improve his intelligence.

jdeeripper said...

Seven Machos said...David -- My point is that nobody talks about white people as a group.

Actually many people do. If you got out of your White racial cocoon you'd realize that.

David said..."I wouldn't compare Katrina Vanden Heuvel to Sean Hannity."

I will.


While you are at it compare their incomes.

Hannity pulls about $25+ million a year.

The commie broad is making maybe what, $75,000?

She works for a cheap little mag called The Nation and appears on pundit TV shows for peanuts.

Seven Machos said...

JDee -- Fine. They should stop. Everyone should stop harping on race. And religion. Especially you and your pal Cedarford.

Peter V. Bella said...

"I wouldn't compare Katrina Vanden Heuvel to Sean Hannity."

Attack dog. Check
Agenda driven. Check.
Rabid. Check.
Vicious. Check.
Idiotic. Check.
Mindless/ Check
Brain mush. Check.
Idiot. Check.
Moron. Check.
Cretin. Check.



No, I would not compare her to Hannity. I would compare her to Olbermann. The only reason her parents named her Katrina is because Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, commonly known as Mad-Cow Disease, was already taken.

Kirk Parker said...

Coates: "I held one person responsible for the whole debacle--Cornel West."

Kirk: "It's about time someone held Cornel West responsible for something!" (And Coates' actual post is interesting in its own right.)

Please try to keep up, garage--it's really lame if I have to put in literal <sarcasm> tags.

yashu said...

somefeller, I strongly disagree that the "carnival barker wing... isn't nearly as strong on the left as its counterpart is on the right," and this clip is a perfect example for my case. The carnival barker wing on the left is just much more extensive, spread out, variegated-- hence less encapsulated by specific figures.

Sure, as single individuals, Limbaugh & Beck-- whose sole focus is politics-- have a very high profile as "political commentators on the right," even attained thereby a kind of iconic status (though much more so for the left-- obsessed with the bogeymen of the right). On the other hand, on any given episode of the Maher show, for example, you'll have celebrities & public figures of all kinds-- actors, singers, musicians, professors, comedians, writers, etc., along with politicians & political commentators-- freely spouting the worst bilge of the "the carnival barker wing of liberalism." Hell, you had Rosie O'Donnell on the View (watched by middle-of-the-road, middle-class housewives) confidently babbling the most absurd of truther conspiracies. Kanye West on the cover of Rolling Stone, "George Bush hates black people." The examples are endless: every day there are vast number of public figures and celebrities disseminating, in interviews & talk shows & performances, throughout the MSM, without shame or embarrassment, all sorts of idiotic, absurd, extreme liberal/leftist views.

The same can't be said of conservative views, "carnival barker" or not. When you do find celebrities & public figures expressing or admitting to conservative views, this tends to be done... sotto voce, apologetically, qualifiedly, defensively. Mostly, they keep it to themselves. (In Hollywood & academia, this is a matter of job security.) Rush & Beck et al are so popular, stand out, loom so large on the media landscape, precisely because they are singular, rare, exceptions: completely unafraid *loudmouths* of the right. (Same goes for Ann Coulter.) That's why they accrue so many devoted fans-- because there are (comparatively speaking) so *few* high-profile figures out there, speaking for conservatives, full-throated & unashamed. Whereas the MSM is aswarm with loudmouths of the left (not just politicians or political commentators), they're so ubiquitous that they blend into an undifferentiated roar. (And uh, I trust I don't have to bring university campuses into the equation.) For every Limbaugh, there isn't just an Olbermann... but those countless loudmouths, sitcom actors & Nobel Prize winners alike, not only in the USA but worldwide, who feel authorized to pontificate & bark the most idiotic of leftist memes, to rapturous applause (& kudos for their "courage"). Meanwhile, Limbaugh is targetted by the White House & MSM (in a propaganda strategy *admitted to* by Carville et al!) as unpatriotic asshole.

yashu said...

As for the clip itself. Didn't watch it, because I have low tolerance for this sort of thing. But I do want to say, I find the focus on race in this conversation (thread) rather irrelevant. Instead of Mos Def, that could just as easily have been a pasty white rocker, trying to strike the same kind of cool, political-rebel (speaking truth to power) pose. And I don't think it has much to do with "lack of education" (in the formal education sense of the word) either. Go on any university campus, and you'll have faculty spouting the same kind of idiocy-- just using fancier words. (Bandying about, say, "capitalist hegemony" rather than "manifesto".) The idiocy is leftist in character, nothing else. And whatever, maybe I'm a little touchy today, but I find some of the race cracks here in really bad taste-- especially because I find race so tangential to what's going on here (as I gather from the descriptions of the clip, here & elsewhere-- like I said, I haven't watched it). NB I'm not ascribing racism, which would be an overreaction, I'm just saying, the equivalent of: yuck. (And I still think X is a moby, you know who you are, but again, whatever, it's a free country (i.e. blog).)

jdeeripper said...

Seven Machos said...JDee -- Fine. They should stop. Everyone should stop harping on race.

We don't agree. I think there needs to be more "harping" on race and ethnic identity as important factors in human relations.

I think ignorance about race and ethnic identity is why so many ignorant Americans think there were Yugoslavs in Yugoslavia, Iraqis in Iraq and Afghans in Afghanistan.

When some of them figured out that there were Sebs/Croats/Bosnians/Slovenes/Kosovars in Yugoslavia, Kurds/Arab Sunni/Arab Shiite/Turkomans/Nestorian Christians in Iraq and Tajiks/Pashtuns/Uzbeks/Hazaras/Herati and others in Afghanistan they were shocked and awed.

I'm a big fan of "harping" on the taboo issue of race and ethnic identity. But I realize for many people it's like talking about evolution in church.

And religion. Especially you and your pal Cedarford.

My "pal" Cedarford and our friends Steve Sailer and Kevin MacDonald view religion, especially Judaism, as a cover for ethnic identity.

My earlier comments about "White Jewish males" in the media and Journolist were more about Jewish ethnic clannishness than abstract Jewish theology.

But I'm all for harping on religion, especially from a skeptical/atheistic POV.

Why would anybody who wants to understand human nature and to comment on human relations want LESS discussion about race and religion?

That's like wanting to discuss human genealogy while leaving out family politics and sexuality.

Would you rather we talked about storks and cabbage patches?

commenter said...

i keep on telling you people it is not about black and white. Black people can be blue bloods, too. or black people can be greenish black too. Those two kinds of black people can be just as much at odds with each other as white people with blue blood and white people with green blood.
wiki:

Blue blood is an English idiom recorded since 1834 for noble birth or descent; it is a translation of the Spanish phrase sangre azul, which described the Spanish royal family and other high nobility who claimed to be of Visigothic descent, in contrast to the Moors. There is no connection between the phrase and the actual blood color of nobility; however, in the ancient and medieval societies of Europe, much of the upper class may have had superficial veins that appeared blue through their untanned skin, in contrast with the working class of the time, mainly agricultural peasants who spent most of their time working outdoors and thus had tanned skin.

For example compare ann and I. she is magenta in her picture which would be what happens when your red blood has a blue tinge. I lean toward olive. I guess I'll always be a farmer or just a fisherwoman on the salty sees.

Maybe there is something to inheriting the earth. and water. Ann, you don't like to get your fingernails dirty, you said?

rhhardin said...

Don't lower your standards by race in the first place and you won't be embarrassed watching.

David said...

Ripper:

Katrina van de Heuvel was born rich. She does not have to "pull down" anything to have money. Her daddy was a senior partner in a New York law firm and a partner in Allen & Co.

As to her grandaddy (per New York Times wedding story): "The bride is a granddaughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. Jules C. Stein of Beverly Hills, Calif. Mr. Stein, the founder of the MCA entertainment and business conglomerate, established the Jules Stein Eye Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles."

TMink said...

Seven wrote: "David -- My point is that nobody talks about white people as a group."

Seven, I agree with most of your points about race you made on this thread. But minorities talk about whites as a group all the time. All the time.

The only group that tends to not talk about white people is white people.

We are the only ethnic group in America that has almost thoroughly marginalized the racist portion of our group.

I wish it was a trend and was catching on with other racial groups. But that is not the case.

I know, the tired canard is that white people don't need white history month because every month is white history month, blah blah blah. But the truth is white people almost never think about what is good for white people, and I think that is proper.

Trey

rhhardin said...

Imus started Women's History Month off by asking who was the first woman to turn on a vacuum cleaner.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Imus started Women's History Month off by asking who was the first woman to turn on a vacuum cleaner.

The woman who invented the vacuum cleaner?

Actually I don't know invented that but I do know that the car windshield wiper was invented by a woman.

Seven Machos said...

It's funny that you mention Yugoslavia, JDee. I spent a good deal of time there. Serbs, Croats, etc. are all pretty much the same. They look the same. They act the same. No reasonable person could conclude that there is but one ethnic group among the humans in the region.

The only conceivable reason that all the people could hate each other is underlying issues of religion.

Anyway, you are an idiot. Race is an utterly false construct that is dying away.

Jeremy said...

Fen said...as to Mos Def: "Your kind obviously does. Else, why would the entertainment biz keep trotting out these ignorant "artists".

You're kidding, right?

"Your kind" listens to and appreciates Mos Def's political commentary?

He's a rap artist and actor who was on an entertainment show on HBO. Where else would he be appearing? Meet The Press?

As to what my "kind" listens to, have you caught Glenn Beck's latest act?

Jeremy said...

FEN - "Yes, he's saying that Brown is a kiss ass today. And yes, we know how "outraged" you guys are about Rush's "intolerant" langauge. Now if we could just get you to unclench your pearls and extend the same standards to radical Islam."

I realize exactly what he's saying about Brown, but how else would Brown contract AIDS if he's not also implying our President is invested with AIDS?

You don't find this kind of comment about our President to be disgusting?

Jeremy said...

Eddie said..."Imagine the hostility that would be unleashed against a conservative host who put together a panel like that."

Can I assume you've never watched Fox News on Sunday morning?

Chris Wallace, Brit Hume, William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, Juan Williams. Columnists Charles Krauthammer and Fred Barnes.

With the possible exception nof Williams, who has become borderline, which one is the most "liberal?"

Jeremy said...

Seven Machos said..."That's why fat ass Michael Moore's movies all failed."

You don't get out much do you?

Whether you agree with him or not, Moore's movies have grossed over $225,000,000.

Jeremy said...

Peter V. Bella said..."Jeremy said...
Rush blah blah blah..."

Peter, why would you think Rush Limbaugh implying our President has AIDS is not that big a deal?

You think it's funny?

ElcubanitoKC said...

"Michael" hasn't left...

Seven Machos said...

Wherein Jeremy (1) fails to understand sarcasm and (2) proves my point exactly.

Thank you, Jeremy. You were useful to me.

TMink said...

Jeremy wrote: "if he's not also implying our President is invested with AIDS?"

Invested with AIDS? Well, I have a few tech stocks, I might be invested with AIDS as well. You say that like it is a bad thing. Once they get a cure, I will make a lot of money, so apparently will the president. What have you got against investing?



OHHHHHHHH, you meant INFECTED!

Never mind.

Emily Litella

jdeeripper said...

TMink said...The only group that tends to not talk about white people is white people.

SWPL

Seven Machos said...It's funny that you mention Yugoslavia, JDee. I spent a good deal of time there. Serbs, Croats, etc. are all pretty much the same.

Race is an utterly false construct that is dying away.


Race is a biological construct and wont be going away any time soon.

As long as Serbs can be distinguished from Koreans, Croats from Yoruba, Hutus from Uzbeks race will be a clear biological reality.

And ethnic identity sub-race has been an organizing factor in human and proto-human history for 5 million years.

Which is why we are somewhat different from Travis the chimp.

But like I said this is all talking evolution in church so the resistance is to be expected.

The problem is when you White religious fanatics and blank slaters get any kind of power and look out at the world through this distorted and dishonest lens.

You people have a tendency to lecture other people who are not of your racial/cultural background about how the world is supposed to be instead of how it is.

And there isn't much difference whether this arrogance and ignorance comes from the political right or the left.

Seven Machos said...

You are a sad, confused person. Race is a social construct with no meaning. It's dead. It's over. There's no such thing.

You are not invited to be a conservative. The left certainly won't have you. You are an island, dude -- a sad and lonely island of error.

jdeeripper said...

Seven Machos said...Race is a social construct with no meaning. It's dead. It's over. There's no such thing.

Race is a biological reality and ethnic identity continues to be an engine of human relations.

You are not invited to be a conservative. The left certainly won't have you. You are an island, dude -- a sad and lonely island of error.

The truth is not democratic and I'm not looking to join any club.

I'm happy to go with reason, science and reality.

I'd rather be on an island of science and truth than out in the ocean of ignorance, arrogance and self deception with you and your BFFs.

Seven Machos said...

I had no idea there were any John Birchers left. This is eye-opening.

srfwotb said...

Maybe people didn't *used* to talk about white people as a group, but they have been since at least the 90s and 00s - including white people. "Stuff White People Like" couldn't exist in this imaginary world where this old trope had validity and white people had no self-consciousness.

Seven Machos said...

Stuff White People Like is stereotypical comedy, like when the really bad driver is Asian and owns a dry cleaning business. I'm all for that.

What JDee is talking about is something much bigger, with real -- and real bad -- implications for society.

yashu said...

Right on, Seven Machos.