April 3, 2009

"Americans do not bow to royalty. In my view, when the royal is the ruling tyrant of a despotic regime, the wrong is compounded."

Obama bows to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

201 comments:

1 – 200 of 201   Newer›   Newest»
Big Mike said...

They'd better get a good Chief of Protocol on board immediately.

David said...

What can you say? I hope he just tripped and it looked like a bow. It's so incredibly strange that I don't know how to react. Obama? Bow? The President of the United States? Bow?

Bow-wow.

Richard Dolan said...

Interesting that neither O nor Michelle were into bow-and-scrape mode when they were introduced to the Queen. Both just walk in and shook hands with her and Philip. O was a bit obsequious in what he said to her at the time, but at least it wasn't as embarrassing as this.

It would be interesting to know whether it was O's idea or some aide's suggesetion that caused O not to bow to the Queen but to do the opposite here. What could they have been thinking (assuming that oh-so-cerebral team was into thinking about such things)?

Hoosier Daddy said...

At least he didn't hold hands with him.

Lem said...

Could this be chalked up to a sort of plantation reflex?

Just asking a question, most definitely ;)

ElcubanitoKC said...

Sarko's face in that pic is priceless

Bissage said...

It is never wrong to click one’s heels at attention.

Mr. Forward said...

President Bowak Bowbama.

garage mahal said...

At least he didn't kiss him.

HelenParr said...

He's just getting down into the position where those thugs have their boot on our throats. Half-way there, Mr. President.

Diamondhead said...

What an embarassment.

Skyler said...

Does anyone think the modern US electorate will learn from this to elect better people to office?

Nah.

We no longer have a culture dedicated to freedom and the abolition of tyranny because we don't remember what those things are anymore.

aberman said...

I know that we'll never get most people to say "I was wrong to vote for Obama." But I will settle for something like "Well, I'm glad that I voted for Obama because I think having an African-American President is good for the country, and we had to give the Democrats a chance after 8 years of Bush, but we certainly don't need to reelect him."

Hoosier Daddy said...

It's important that Obama knows his place when dealing with our Muslim friends. I see nothing wrong here.

ElcubanitoKC said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lumiere said...

Bowing to the Saudi king will be regarded all across the Arabian peninsula and throughout the Middle East in general as an indication of American subservience to Wahabbi Islam.

ElcubanitoKC said...

garage mahal said...
At least he didn't kiss him.

9:10 AM


That could have only happened if he had treated the king as an equal.

Greg Toombs said...

It's a major gaffe. Of course you can't find the story in the US MSM.

The Saudi king is acknowledged as the spiritual leader of Sunni muslims. Never mind the Saudi institutional support for terrorism.

To have our President bow before royalty of any country, before the leader of most of the world's muslims and a terrorist sponsor is shocking.

N.B. lumiere is 100% correct. It will serve to further encourage the Islamicist bastards that they will succeed in defeating the USA as they remake their Caliphate.

garage mahal said...

Like here ElcubanitoKC ?

Trevor Jackson said...

Like the sun rising in the east. What, no "Obama is like Bush" tag?

peter hoh said...

Shouldn't this have an "Obama is like Bush" tag?

HelenParr said...

I wish he were as good at bowing as he is at bowling.

Fitgers said...

Are you sure he's bowing? Maybe he's handing over an iPod.

ElcubanitoKC said...

garage mahal said...
Like here ElcubanitoKC ?

9:21 AM


That person's photoshop skills are lacking. Those two kissed each other on each cheek (one can tell from the bad stitching in the picture) as it is customary in muslim societies, again, among equals. Lower clases can only kiss the hem of the upper class men's (or women's) garments, and with their explicit permission only. Or bow to them if the are not allowed to touch them. It has been so for centuries. Look it up if you doubt me.

MadisonMan said...

but we certainly don't need to reelect him.

You never need to reelect anyone.

TRO said...

I believe Barry did a respectful small head bow to the Queen which was appropriate considering our long shared history together.

But this . . . this was just prostration. We are so screwed.

AJ Lynch said...

Nothing can top the embarassment of Bush holding hands with the King.

TRO said...

Nothing can top the embarassment of Bush holding hands with the King.

Nope, this is worse. Holding hands was a cultural deal that looked silly to us Westerners. This is just plain sickening.

ShadyCharacter said...

First of all Garage, even Gordon Brown with his one half-functioning eye would recognize that picture as a photoshop. I wouldn't bother to point this out, but from many of your posts I've deduced that you're partisan/stupid enough to think you had found a smoking gun!

A bigger point though, is that you appear to have completely missed ElcubanitoKC's point.

Mr. Empty Suit "bowed" to the king. He presented himself as an inferior to the king. And given his role of head of state, presented the United States as inferior to Saudi Arabia. To have kissed the king, as unappetizing as that would be, would be the act of an EQUAL (to clear up you apparent confusion, the act of someone NOT INFERIOR IN STANDING to the king).

I'm sure Obama didn't mean to present himself as an inferior (given his self-regard I think he'd try to give Jesus Christ a fist bump at the second coming). The problem is, that Obama is ignorant (not the same as stupid). That's a scary thing in a president.

Given his off-teleprompter performance, I also happen to think he's stupid, but that's a subject for another post...

AllenS said...

It's a Muslim thing, you wouldn't understand.

traditionalguy said...

I believe his bow was a habit picked up in his moslem days before becoming a Christian. The "submission" to authority in Mohammed's tradition is a part of every relationship. One submits to the higher authority in the room. We now get to see, in an unscripted and telepromptered moment, what has been in his heart. God help the Jews, because Obama will find a way to answer Present the day the next Arab attack comes that requires any American support for Israel to survive complete annihilation.

Peter V. Bella said...

He treats the PM of England like a second class tourist, he gives the Queen an Ipod, and he treats a Saudi Arabian with due respect. It appears that he disdains Westerners and embraces the Near East.

Henry said...

I can't put my finger on it, but this gives me a strong feeling of Deja Vu. President goes to foreign country, does something stupid.

The president needs a protocol droid.

mrs whatsit said...

Did the Obama administration fire everybody at State who knows anything about protocol?

The videotape gaffe was merely embarrassing, but this is absolutely humiliating -- not to mention dangerous. Can you imagine the mileage that Al Jazeera will get from this?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Like here ElcubanitoKC ?

Oh for Allah's sake garage, even you can see that's Photoshopped. C'mon, don't end up like Alpha. I'd be inconsolable for about 10 minutes.

bearbee said...

Interesting that neither O nor Michelle were into bow-and-scrape mode when they were introduced to the Queen.

The Queen doesn't have spare oil.

What will happen when he meets the leader of the country which is primary holder of US debt, Chinese President Hu Jintao?
Its gotta be embarrassing.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Actually I just looked at the photo and honestly it looks like he almost tripped or is looking for a missing contact lens.

I think I'll reserve judgement if he's really bowing.

Palladian said...

"Actually I just looked at the photo and honestly it looks like he almost tripped or is looking for a missing contact lens.

I think I'll reserve judgement if he's really bowing."

It doesn't look like a bow to me either.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Hoosier, actually, you may be right. Let's hope so.

garage mahal said...

So this was photoshopped too? Haha. You guys are too much. Really.

lumiere said...

There's a video of Obama bowing. There is no question that he bowed:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/04/obama_bows_down_to_saudi_king.html

MnMark said...

Actually I just looked at the photo and honestly it looks like he almost tripped or is looking for a missing contact lens.

No, he's really bowing. There's video of it here.

I believe this is a first in American history - an American president bowing before royalty. We hadn't even dipped our flag before royalty at the Olympics in the past.

But it's not hard to believe he did it or understand why - he wants to show that we're different now, we're not arrogant or bad anymore. We're humble, we know our place - which is to shovel money into the Third World, no questions asked.

Obama is so completely a man of the appeasement Left that it's a little shocking to see him in action, a little hard to believe he's actually behaving the way he does. I think we have a bunch more similar shocks coming.

Bob said...

First a bow, then a kowtow...

Hoosier Daddy said...

So this was photoshopped too? Haha. You guys are too much. Really.

No it isn't. Actually garage, that is the point an earlier commenter made, Bush did the cheek kiss which like the Russians and Greeks is a cultural thing. Your other link was an evident photoshop trying to make it look like Bush was playing tonsil hockey with the guy.

For the record, I'd just as soon see the President kick the Saudi king in the balls.

Jon said...

Someone said: Shouldn't this have an "Obama is like Bush" tag?

No, this should have a "what if Bush did this" tag.

This is far, far more embarassing than Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. Holding hands, a completely ordinary thing among males in the Arab world, is just a gesture of friendship, it does not imply that one of the two is of higher status than the other.

OTOH, an unrecipricated bow is a universally recognized gesture of subservience.

If Bush had bowed to the Saudi king, the Dems would be going absolutely apeshit right now, and it would be all over the MSM, with MSNBC playing it on a continuous loop.

lawprof2 said...

Bush holds hands (many times) with the Saudis, and you complain about this? Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.

Fair and balanced.

ElcubanitoKC said...

garage mahal said...
So this was photoshopped too? Haha. You guys are too much. Really.

9:50 AM


No, garage, that is not photoshopped, but it also doesn't show subservience.

ElcubanitoKC said...

lawprof2 said...
Bush holds hands (many times) with the Saudis, and you complain about this? Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.

Fair and balanced.

9:58 AM


Read the points made above, and you will see the difference between the two acts.

Michael Hasenstab said...

Obama is bowing to give thanks for the millions of dollars of campaign contributions that were sent from the middle east.

That video is sickening.

trogdor said...

Seriously, Prof. Althouse? What is this, Instapundit? Lately it seems like you can't be bothered to make a substantive argument anymore.

Hector Owen said...

Here's the video. Bowing action starts at 52 seconds in. Not a genuflection, but definitely a deep bow. Respect? Fealty? Submission? There are many greetings among heads of state going on here, but no other bowing that I saw.

In countries where there is royalty the King personifies the nation, thus King Henry VIII for instance could speak of himself as "England." In this scene America humbles herself to Saudi Arabia.

Revolting.

ElcubanitoKC said...

trogdor said...
Seriously, Prof. Althouse? What is this, Instapundit? Lately it seems like you can't be bothered to make a substantive argument anymore.

10:09 AM


And yours is...exactly how substantive??

Quayle said...

I'm waiting for the left's outrage.

Surely the oilmen have invaded Obama's protocol office and played a nasty trick.

Or is this the "I'm so personally sorry that America took out one of your nutty and dangerous neighbors" bow?

Or is this the "I am hoping to outsource the middle east problem to you" bow?

Or is this the “Yes, I made all sorts of gestures to Iran, but I either don’t know or don’t care that Iran will see this as a total contradiction of what I said on the video message” bow?

I’m having a hard time figuring out this guy.

former law student said...

It would be interesting to know whether it was O's idea or some aide's suggesetion that caused O not to bow to the Queen but to do the opposite here.

The reason most likely is that the UK is not a Muslim country. When in Rome, etc. For all you folks whose greatest multicultural experience has been going to the King Wah Chinese Buffet on Rte. 39, I present you the dictionary:


sa·laam (s-läm) KEY

NOUN:

A ceremonious act of deference or obeisance, especially a low bow performed while placing the right palm on the forehead.
A respectful ceremonial greeting performed especially in Islamic countries.

Methadras said...

No American Man should prostrate himself to a Muslim King. What Mr. Barely just did is inexcusable and will only feed the "he is a stealth Muslim" bullshit. I wonder if this is part of Rush's great plan to illustrate Mr. Barely's continued and incompetent failure.

Palladian said...

Ok, so he did bow. Grotesque. Obama should take lessons on how Americans behave towards "royalty" from his wife.

That the Nuanced-American community can't discern the difference between holding hands/kissing and bowing is... well, predictable.

Palladian said...

"A ceremonious act of deference or obeisance"

Do we want the President of the United States of America to be obeisant to foreign potentates?

Hoosier Daddy said...

The reason most likely is that the UK is not a Muslim country.

Yet. Another 15 to 20 years is another story.

Bissage said...

Bowing isn't so great but it could be worse.

President Obama could be kneeling before Zod.

Paul said...

So he's a Muslim after all?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Do we want the President of the United States of America to be obeisant to foreign potentates?

I guess that depends on who you ask Palladian. To most of the left I'd wager the answer is yes considering how most see us as the cause for all the world's problems.

Greg Toombs said...

fls: A respectful ceremonial greeting performed especially in Islamic countries.

And where is the reciprocating bow from Faisal?

Of course! There was none.

(Sigh.)

yashu said...

Ugh.

ElcubanitoKC said...

fls, thank you kindly for proving my point.

bearbee said...

President Obama could be kneeling before Zod.

Does he hold US debt?

Chip Ahoy said...

In Japan I used to see old men try to out bow each other. It was a little bit comical, sort of like Chip and Dale chipmunk cartoon. This is nothing. It would be a different matter had the president performed an elaborate comically exaggerated salaam and humbly backed out of the room careful never to turn his back to his Arab Eminence.

I wanted to see Michelle perform a girlish courtesy to Queen E., that would have been funny. Ace called her gargantuan Sasquatch and that set me into a laughing fit. He's mean.

David said...

Just like Bush?

No, a thousand times no.

Bush would have been all over the news had he made such a gesture.

For Obama this is an internet story.

Diamondhead said...

"The reason most likely is that the UK is not a Muslim country."

The UK may not be a Muslim country, but people generally do bow/curtsy when meeting their royalty. So either the Mr. or Mrs. screwed up - which was it?

TRO said...

lawprof2 said...
Bush holds hands (many times) with the Saudis, and you complain about this? Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.


Not a bow like this. This wasn't a respectful nod of the head. One that was, as someone else said, not even reciprocated.

He took the subservient role, which is one he is probably the most comfortable with.

Smilin' Jack said...

It doesn't look like a bow to me either.

Me neither. In the video it looked like he was bending down to kiss Abdullah's boots, but his back was stiff from the long plane ride and he couldn't make it that far.

Fen said...

The UK may not be a Muslim country, but people generally do bow/curtsy when meeting their royalty. So either the Mr. or Mrs. screwed up - which was it?

Heads of state and their wives do not bow to royalty. Michelle had it right.

ricpic said...

Obama rememba where he come from
When he kiss duh hand ob duh Saudi scum.
America got lotsa 'pologizin' to do,
Startin' wid his Ayrab bro's, dat's true!

PatCA said...

"Interesting that neither O nor Michelle were into bow-and-scrape mode when they were introduced to the Queen."

But the Queen does not control vast oil reserve, which save our O from pissing off the enviro lobby by allowing drilling in North America.

"No bow for oil"? Not quite yet.

Diamondhead said...

Fen, it's pretty clear that's the correct answer, but since fls is defending the President's bow, I'd like to see whether consistency makes him admit he think the first lady was wrong.

Fen said...

lawprof: Bush holds hands (many times) with the Saudis, and you complain about this? Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.

Whats even more embarassing is your attempt to draw equivalence between two very different things.

At least change your tag. Law professors are expected to have critical thinking skills.

save_the_rustbelt said...

Out in the center of the country, where the guys with Purple Hearts spend their evenings having a beer at the veterans' post, they refer to diplomacy in general as the "Uncle Chump" problem, Uncle Sam bowing and scraping to Mexico and China and Arab oil sheiks.

(terrorism being replaced with "man made disasters")

Guess Barack is just taking it a little further than normal.

William said...

The proper gesture is to garrote the Saudi King with piano wire and slip Mrs Sarkozy the tongue and a little note about where to meet later. However, it is the artifice of diplomacy that these genuine and honest expressions of affection cannot be made without giving offense.

Fen said...

Any sign of the MSM covering this?

former law student said...

And where is the reciprocating bow from Faisal?

First of all, the current king is Abdullah. Faisal was assassinated in 1975. In other news, the war in Vietnam is over.

Watching the Youtube video (and who knew Michelle Malkin watched Spanish language news channels? What was that from, Argentina 24/7?), it's clear that Abdullah initiates the greeting by sticking out his hand -- to greet the American Obama in the American fashion. Obama reciprocates the courtesy by greeting Abdullah in the Islamic fashion.

Common courtesy is apparently as rare around here as common sense.

former law student said...

The first lady is wrong about what?

Diamondhead said...

She didn't curtsy to the Queen, which is, you know, standard in that culture.

TRO said...

Watching the Youtube video (and who knew Michelle Malkin watched Spanish language news channels? What was that from, Argentina 24/7?), it's clear that Abdullah initiates the greeting by sticking out his hand -- to greet the American Obama in the American fashion. Obama reciprocates the courtesy by greeting Abdullah in the Islamic fashion.

You keep spinning that stuff like a good defense attorney should.

Abdullah shook his hand like an equal. Barry bowed like a submissive. The only things missing are the red ball gag and high heels.

MadisonMan said...

Any sign of the MSM covering this?

How is it news that conservatives are Outraged! Sickened! Embarrassed! about something Obama did?

k*thy said...

To bow or not to bow? Let's just hope that Michelle and Carla's fashion bows don't catch on.

Diamondhead said...

Anytime liberals were embarassed at something President Bush did, it dominated three news cycles.

Kylos said...

FLS, just look at the definition of salaam you presented. It's already been pointed out, but I don't think you've noticed. Deference and obeisance are definitely not attitudes our president should be expressing to any head of state or other individual. Greeting him as an equal according to the customs of his culture is acceptable (as Bush did, with the exchange of kisses on the cheek). Obama bowed deeply to him, a well recognized sign of deference in almost all cultures.

Fen said...

Any sign of the MSM covering this?

How is it news that conservatives are Outraged! Sickened! Embarrassed! about something Obama did?

Strawman. C'mon MM, you're smarter than that.

Its news because this represents yet another minor diplomatic screwup from Team Obama. I don't want them anywhere near a negotiating table where their amatuer hour will have greater consequence.

Hoosier Daddy said...

First of all, the current king is Abdullah. Faisal was assassinated in 1975. In other news, the war in Vietnam is over.

FLS, considering in another thread you displayed your own ignorance by stating that Truman lead infantry in combat in WW1 despite the fact he was an officer in an artillery unit, or that the US military is obliged to defend the US rather then the Constitution as their oath dictates, you might consider being less of a dick when pointing out someone else's errors.

Just a suggestion.

ElcubanitoKC said...

fls, there is a word in your quote (obesaince) that should have given you a clue. This is not a reciprocal act. This is not a common courtesy act. This is an act of obesaince, which according to the Merriam-Webster means:

obei·sance
Pronunciation: \ō-ˈbē-sən(t)s, ə-, -ˈbā-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English obeisaunce obedience, obeisance, from Anglo-French obeisance, from obeissant, present participle of obeir to obey
Date: 14th century
1 : a movement of the body made in token of respect or submission: bow
2 : acknowledgment of another's superiority or importance : homage [makes obeisance to her mentors]
— obei·sant \-sənt\ adjective
— obei·sant·ly adverb

daredevil-66 said...

I'll be awaiting Michael Moore's breathless, bleating that the President is kissing the Saudi's ass for oil favors.

MadisonMan said...

fen, are you going to buy a newspaper if you see the headline: Scandal! Obama bows before Saudi.

Me neither.

I think this isn't reported on because Americans know that nothing happens at these little junkets that Presidents go on. I don't think it's a Vast Press Wing Conspiracy to keep the public from knowing about gaffes that will be forgotten Just In Time for the next manufactured crisis.

garage mahal said...

I could have sworn I seen a crescent moon in a crumpet that Obama was eating too. Hmmm.....Think the MSM will cover that?

Hoosier Daddy said...

How is it news that conservatives are Outraged! Sickened! Embarrassed! about something Obama did?

Well it was certainly news when in China Bush tried to leave through a locked door. The media couldn't replay that 'debacle' enough.

Honestly I'm not Outraged! Sickened! Embarrassed! by anything Obama has done thus far. He's simply living up to my expectations of someone who listed to Goddam America!! for 20 years and married a woman who was finally proud of her country because 52% of them thought her husband was a messiah.

MadisonMan said...

In other news, the war in Vietnam is over.

Would've been funnier if you'd typed Francisco Franco is still dead.

ElcubanitoKC said...

MadisonMan said...
In other news, the war in Vietnam is over.

Would've been funnier if you'd typed Francisco Franco is still dead.

11:59 AM


That would require knowing European history though.

MadisonMan said...

Hoosier, I thought that locked door encounter was a good one for Bush -- everyone could identify with it, and it made him seem very next-doorish and reinforced his good guy image. It's harder for me to identify with the faux pas -- if you want to call it that -- of bowing before a foreign king because, well, I probably will never be in the same situation.

But I can see your point.

MnMark said...

Someday, somewhere, an Obama supporter will actually admit that their man made a mistake, and will not brush it off or excuse it with "But Bush Did It Too."

Obama embarrassed himself by going too far with his "hey look, I don't think America is any better than any other country!" thing.

The River Otter said...

Everybody's making such a big deal about the Ipod gifting and the J Crew outfits, that I completely missed this important tidbit!

AJ Lynch said...

MM/ Fen:

Come on- you both know it's far more important for the MSM to give us the latest on Madonna's new adoption.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier, I thought that locked door encounter was a good one for Bush -- everyone could identify with it, and it made him seem very next-doorish and reinforced his good guy image.

Well normal thinking people would think that also but the Left took it as yet another example to point out what an idiot he was. Because you know none of them ever pushed when they should have pulled or found themselves jiggling a locked door.

traditionalguy said...

The attitudes of your body in (1)inclining the head and (2)bowing from the waist and (3) kneeling and (4)prostrating the body and head with the arms outstretched are the four acts of worship to the Supreme Being. At least Obama stopped at #2. After long interractions with the Muslim Nation of Louis Farrakhan I suspect that Obama used to giving this customary response to the head Prophet of the religion, much as we see Politicians kiss babies and Catholics make the sign of the cross. So this may just be Obama in campaign mode. In spiritual traditions you show to the Authorized representative that worship attitude you have towards his Master. The human and God that christians worship is Jesus of Nazareth, but Mohammed took that role himself as the revealed human Prophet that Allah made Lord on earth in place of Jesus as the Son of a Father God. That is of course according to an Angel who spoke to Mohammed in a cave.

Jeremy said...

It certainly looks like Obama bowed, although it appears he either caught himself or just went ahead and did it as gesture of respect.

If you pay attention it's also just as obvious the Saudi returned the gesture.

I have no idea how important something this is to Americans or the rest of the world, and I remember some years ago when President Bush touched cheeks with and held the hand of a Saudi monarch during a visit to his Texas ranch, he also caught all kinds of flack from specific critics.

I think both situations reflect a sign of respect by one leader to another and regardless of what anyone thinks it will fade quickly.

With that said, there's no doubt those who hate Obama and everything he does or says will have a field day with this, but what else is new?

rhhardin said...

Bowing is so 20th Century.

MadisonMan said...

ElCubanitoKC, read this.

Daryl said...

This isn't the first un-American thing Barack Obama has ever done.

ElcubanitoKC said...

MadisonMan said...
ElCubanitoKC, read this.

12:15 PM


Hahaha! I forgot about that. I have even seen the video. One of those mental lapses, like Truman leading infantry perhaps...

SNL may be too lowly for some though, and humor in general as well.

bearbee said...

save_the_rustbelt said...
...Uncle Sam bowing and scraping to Mexico and China and Arab oil sheiks.

Why Mexico? Its largest oil field is declining in production. What other importance does it have to the US?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Why Mexico? Its largest oil field is declining in production. What other importance does it have to the US?

Let's see a completely open border with us with an ongoing drug war that threatens to spill over here but we can't seal the border cause that's racist. Then there are 15 to 20 million Mexican's living in the US illegally that we can't deport and are probably going to get amnesty which will then encourage the remaining 90% of the Mexican population to come here too.

Other than that, nothing.

daredevil-66 said...

Not too surprising the bash-bush crowd would see nothing wrong in this after spending 8 years of manufactured outrage over every single thing bush said or did. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Buford Gooch said...

The Arabian king must have dropped a quarter.

Shanna said...

Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.

For the record, I don’t think the American President should be bowing to anyone (and bowing is way different from a kiss on the cheek, which is a VERY common cultural thing), but you have to admit there is a bit of a disparity between the way he’s treating England and the way he’s treating this guy.

You can’t get away with calling this a cultural thing if he won’t bow to the Queen.

But maybe it’s not a middle east/western world thing. Maybe he just doesn’t respect women :)

Fair and balanced!

Fen said...

SNL may be too lowly for some though

SNL is in the tank. They pulled a hillarious skit re Hillary because it would damage her politically. I'm all for "bards" mocking those in power, but when they have a double standard like that, its hackery and not worth watching. Entertainment should not be Indoctrination.

Fen said...

MM: I think this isn't reported on because Americans know that nothing happens at these little junkets that Presidents go on.

Its not reported because our MSM practices censorship by omission when it involves a Democrat. Its a minor example of all the other [more important] things that your information brokers will keep from you. I don't understand why you would be cool with that.

Jeremy said...

Hoosier: "Then there are 15 to 20 million Mexican's living in the US illegally that we can't deport and are probably going to get amnesty which will then encourage the remaining 90% of the Mexican population to come here too."

Other than Lou Dobbs, what do you base this on?

Why can't we deport? Who said they were getting amnesty? And why would you possibly think everybody in Mexico would move to the United States?

ElcubanitoKC said...

Jeremy/Michael/whatever, this thread is about your Messiah bowing to the Saudi king. Illegal immigration is somewhere else.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Other than Lou Dobbs, what do you base this on?

Pew reports.

Why can't we deport?

Cause it's racist. Haven't you been paying attention? Sealing the border is racist too.

Who said they were getting amnesty?

You're right. That's not what 'comprehensive immigration reform' meant. My bad.

And why would you possibly think everybody in Mexico would move to the United States?

No reason other than the fact the country they live in is a corrupt shithole with little chance of meaningful employment, a drug war that's starting to look like Iraq in 2005 and that 10% of them are already living here.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Jeremy/Michael/whatever, this thread is about your Messiah bowing to the Saudi king. Illegal immigration is somewhere else.

He was responding to me responding to someone else who was asking why Mexico is important.

mariner said...

trogdor:

"Lately it seems like you can't be bothered to make a substantive argument anymore."
Res ipsa loquitor.

bearbee said...

Let's see a completely open border with us with an ongoing drug war that threatens to spill over here but we can't seal the border cause that's racist. Then there are 15 to 20 million Mexican's living in the US illegally that we can't deport and are probably going to get amnesty which will then encourage the remaining 90% of the Mexican population to come here too.

That is kind of obvious. I was looking for something subtle and maybe there is anything more. Instapundit linked to The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century with a video of the author predicting the rise of Mexico to challenge the United States. So other than drug cartels, people and declining oil reserves, what does Mexico have that is important to us?

Jeremy said...

ElcubanitoKC - I responded to a comment by Hoosier that relates to immigration.

If I'm not responding to your personally why not just ignore what I've written?

Be an adult.

Jeremy said...

Hoosier, I live near Mexico and am business partners with an Hispanic family. They basically agree with you and others that illegal immigration is a huge problem, I've been hearing the same anectotal stories, along with real facts for over 20 years and things are pretty much the same.

It's the employer who should be targeted. Make them pay a fair wage, deduct taxes, and pay a massive fine if they don't.
(Right now many are leaving because of a lack of work.)

Even you would go where it was necessary to support your family, and that really what 90% of these people are doing. Most send a portion of their money back to Mexico and they do contribute to our economy, every study that's ever been done supports this.

As for Pew: "The Pew Hispanic Center has previously estimated that there are between 11.5 and 12 million unauthorized migrants in 2006.1 The calculations reported in this fact sheet suggest that roughly 4.5 to 6 million or 40 to 50% of the total entered the country legally through ports of entry. Of them, some 4 to 5.5 million entered with nonimmigrant visas, mostly as tourists or business visitors, and another 250,000 to 500,000 entered with Border Crossing Cards."

Revenant said...

Has it been confirmed that this was actually a bow? Or was he just bending over for some unrelated reason?

Chris Wren said...

I find the very idea of a superior human pedigree ( which is the essence of the concept of royalty ) to be a profound insult not only to my intelligence but to my person. I like the idea that Americans don't bow to royalty. I wish more nations had the same attitude. In this instance, respect for other cultures be damned.

mrs whatsit said...

FLS, you are revealing some pretty significant ignorance about your country's traditions. NO American bows to royalty. And no American head of state should show "obeisance" to another head of state. The Saudi King's gesture in shaking hands was appropriate as between equals. Our President's bow in response was shockingly inappropriate and carried a message that I truly hope he did not intend.

Why are we letting this guy wander loose around the planet with no grownups along to show him how to behave?

ElcubanitoKC said...

Revenant, the video is pretty clear: he bowed. The picture may give you a different idea. I think the person next to him looking at the floor might have had the same thoughts as many others: "Is he bowing or is he looking for the mini-teleprompter? Did he drop his contact? Oh, god, is he really bowing??" etc. It was probably as unbelievable to him, as it has been to us.

And again, don't forget Sarko's face.

Michael, get a life.

Peter V. Bella said...

I think both situations reflect a sign of respect by one leader to another and regardless of what anyone thinks it will fade quickly.

He sure did not show that respect to the PM of Great Britain. No joint press conference- oh, yeah, maybe he could toss back a few with Joe Biden- and a useless gift that was, how does one put this, degrading, cheap, and puerile. Then he gives the Queen of England an Ipod? He sure knows how to treat world leaders alright. Yeah, he really shows respect to Western leaders.

Seven Machos said...

Thread: Obama bows embarrassingly.

Obama shill: Let's continue to discuss illegal immigration.

Hector Owen said...

Jeremy at 12:14: "If you pay attention it's also just as obvious the Saudi returned the gesture."

If you look at it a few more times, it's clear that Obama's gaze is lowered, as he brings his upper body close to horizontal. The monarch graciously inclines his head a few degrees. Whether he is expressing approval or concealing disbelief, I couldn't say. (A head of state should be able to maintain a poker face.) One could say that the gesture was acknowledged, but scarcely "returned."

Video edit by Captain Ed of Hot Air.

Synova said...

It seems so ridiculous that I'm inclined to doubt it, even if it's on video.

Revenant said...

Revenant, the video is pretty clear: he bowed.

Heh! What a nitwit.

traditionalguy said...

The quandry is what the Saudi Ruler thought that Pres. Obama meant by this form of a greeting. It appears that they have an established relationship from early days when a young community organiser Obama needed a patron. Or perhaps Pres. Obama actually is only trying to appear harmless to this Saudi Ruler. That gesture of respect is the way a son treats his Father in the Middle Eastern culture.

Big Mike said...

The version I first saw he seemed to have started a bow and then caught himself. FWIW The Anchoress seems to have seen it the way I did.

Anybody have another link?

paul a'barge said...

From a previous comment: The Saudi king is acknowledged as the spiritual leader of Sunni muslims

At the risk of going beyond the pale, but this along with Obama's obsequious bow to me just pretty much nails the fact that Obama is a closet moslem.

I'm giving him 6 months before he comes out of the closet.

The man's wife puts an arm-lock hug on the Queen of England, they give her an IPod and then he gets down low enough to lick the belt buckle of the Saudi king?

Geez. This guy is starting to make Jimmah Cah-tair look like Freeman Dyson.

bearbee said...

Article published March 28

I guess Hillary was to busy to mention State Department resources to O.

No, Really, You Shouldn’t Have

According to a person close to the situation, Obama hasn't yet appointed a chief of protocol and his staffers, still unpacking, didn't realize that the State Department has an entire office dedicated to foreign visits.

BJM said...

AP reports that today in Strausbourg Obama spoke to a crowd of French and Germans assembled townhall style.

An interesting excerpt:

"It is important for Europe to understand that even though I'm now president and George Bush is no longer president, al-Qaida is still a threat, and that we cannot pretend somehow that because Barack Hussein Obama got elected as president, suddenly everything is going to be OK," he said. "This is a joint problem. And it requires a joint effort."

Quelle surprise! It appears that Obama's, previously unmentionable, media embargoed, middle name is now a diplomatic asset.

Were one a cynic, one might snicker at such obvious pandering if it were not such a dangerous game Obama is playing.

Cedarford said...

Americans bucking some international protocols started with a few 19th Century jingoists making up rules they demanded be American exceptionalism and all "patriotic Americans follow".
So we don't courtsey Queens, never are supposed to genuflect in a Papist church, and we insisted being the only flag where our flag never dips at the Olympics because we are so globally special, nor kiss the cheeks of "effete furriners". And we don't take our shoes off but go where we want!

Well, guess what. "When in Rome" --something insulated jingoists who never travelled anywhere avoided, the tendency is to do as others do. If Chinese tourists in St Peter's Basilica can genuflect to the altar as a matter of respect, so can I. In Japan, I followed protocol and bowed based on status depending on sequence and how deep a bow is given based on if the Nipponese was superior to me, my equal, or subordinate to me in a business context.
And in the UK, if tennis champions at Wimbleton and celebrities and Senators can follow monarchial protocol on UK turf - it is no big deal despite our 21st Century jingoists like Scott at Powerline getting in a lather about it.

srfwotb said...

Can't even watch it.

One of my college roommates was from the Middle East and made a Huge Display of obsequiousness when we had to get a (foreign) landlord to rent us an apartment for a reasonable "finder's fee" a.k.a "bribe" a.k.a what happens when there's rent control. Another time we got nowhere with a non-English speaking neighbor until we added a little bow, then suddenly she decided she could trust us.

So, I'm assuming he's actually rather elaborately displaying his awareness of cultural sensitivities, but please, what may have been polite as a student visitor isn't quote the same when you're the President.

paul a'barge said...

How can anyone who voted for Obama sleep at night after watching this?

srfwotb said...

@Cedarford

Actually, I checked the UK and US protocol and Americans aren't expected to bow or curtsy to the Queen.

It goes deeper than "we're bad". The country was founded on the idea of "No Kings", equality of man etc. IOW, the idea that no man *anywhere* should bow to another, rather than all should bow to America.

paul a'barge said...

Cedarford: In Japan, I followed protocol and bowed

With all due respect sir, you're not the President of the United States of America.

Different protocols are called for. And you don't have to be a jingo to understand that.

Which apparently Obama does not.

Hoosier Daddy said...

It's the employer who should be targeted. Make them pay a fair wage, deduct taxes, and pay a massive fine if they don't.

Fine target the employer. No problem. Wait, but there is. The Feds were doing just that and deporting the illegals and Pelosi and company decried that kind of action wondering what kind of nation does such a thing? Enforce it's own laws that is.

Even you would go where it was necessary to support your family,

Of course I would and if I could find a nation full of saps that gave me a special break by allowing me to enter the country with no questions asked they'd be first on my list.

Most send a portion of their money back to Mexico and they do contribute to our economy, every study that's ever been done supports this.

I notice you conveniently leave out the costs of medical care, education and law enforcement needed to deal with the additional 10-12 million more people.

As for Pew: "The Pew Hispanic Center has previously estimated that there are between 11.5 and 12 million unauthorized migrants in 2006.1

Ok so I was off 3 million from my low estimate. Thanks for clarification.

ElcubanitoKC said...

C4, you have apparently never heard of context and cultural differences.

In Japan, people bow to each other (except to Westerners like you who can't understand the many intricacies of Japanese etiquette, look it up)

Chinese tourists "genuflecting" before St Peter's altar...interesting. I am a practicing Catholic, and the only genuflection required is not to the altar, but to the tabernacle or wherever the Blessed Sacrament is contained. Why? Look it up. Even when priests genuflect, they do it in the direction of the Blessed Sacrament, not the altar.

Now, in muslim societies, bowing is an act of acknowledging others' superiority. Look it up.

garage mahal said...

Now, in muslim societies, bowing is an act of acknowledging others' superiority. Look it up.

How bout a link?

garage mahal said...

I'm on notoriously inaccurate Wiki and it sez Bowing to other human beings is frowned upon in Muslim cultures as all human beings are considered equal and bowing is only supposed to be done to God in Islam.

If Obama was a closet Muslim he would surely know this?

m00se said...

Dunno.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. He appears clueless. In fact, it really looks like he's bending over to pick up something he dropped on the floor right as he came up Abdullah.

If he did bow on purpose, I suspect he did it without considering first what the protocol of the situation would dictate he do.

Mostly, that video just reeks of an inexperienced state legislator who managed to get elected as President.

Peter V. Bella said...

"...when the royal is the ruling tyrant of a despotic regime, the wrong is compounded..."

There is no wrong in this. Obama and his ilk respect trannical, despotic regimes and he is showing that respect. When he completes his tyranny here and becomes our despot, the King and others will return that respect. The rest of us will just have to bow and kiss his ass.

Bissage said...

Back in the early 1980s I thought that Richard Chamberlain had hired me to paint his basement.

It turned out he really wanted me to dress up like a samurai and curse at him in Japanese and then piss on his back as he lay prostrate on the floor.

He was really into it and I think he might have had an orgasm.

Later on he treated me to large quantities of cocaine and I got to have sex with Rachel Ward.

It was great!

Big Mike said...

I have to agree with garage (makes this a red letter day, I guess).

Of course as my son's high school and college teachers used to emphasize, wikipedia is not always a reliable source. However this site seems to say much the same thing and it sure as heck looks authoritative.

But I agree with m00se. Obama's bow (or partial bow, as it appeared to me in the clip I saw yesterday) is still a gaffe any way you cut it, so go back to my comment at 8:56. He needs help with international protocol and he'd better get it fast.

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

Now, in muslim societies, bowing is an act of acknowledging others' superiority. Look it up.

How bout a link?


Hey Garage, how about you actually try to understand a Arab/Muslim culture before you ask other people to do it for you. Your such a farce it's painful to watch. Now how about a little education for you without me resorting to a link. It's called supplication and in Arab culture (even non-Muslim culture) it's called Dua. Dua is a loose transitory meaning that refers to bowing to anothers will, whether physically or deference to respect, as an act of from subordinate to superior. Generally supplication of this nature as a Dua or Du'A is reserved for prayer to Allah. You supplicate yourself to Allah.

The Japanese do it too, but their tradition is slightly different, although the meaning and deference can be the same. The depth of the bow is important, the length of time and sustainment of the bow is also important. For example, I could see a superior or elder from far away and if eye contact/recognition is made the bow begins while moving forward towards that person with a quick look up to see if you are acknowledged. If you are you bow again deeply as you move closer towards that superior and keep doing it until you are up to him to either shake his/her hand with one more deep bow and they bow to you in response. Now, this is for the Japanese. For Arabs, you are asked to approach, say the King, and do what Obama did. That is the Arab version of supplication and he did it very very well.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Alright, garage mahal, I can't give you a specific link. However, if you read arabic and muslim literature in general, there are thousands of examples of this behavior (not only in Medieval times, but going all the way to the 20th century). When in the presence of a ruler, wallid, emir, sultan, or potentate of any kind, the "inferior classes" bow to them. In older examples they even "kiss the earth between their hands" (which is an action I am still, after all these years of reading, trying to figure out exactly how is done)

There is footage of Saudi kings (this one and his predecesors) receiving their subjects bows. I can't direct you to a link on that either, so you are free to disbelieve it.

Jon said...

Speaking of illegal immigration, I hereby renounce my support of Mitt Romney, who has just flip-flopped on the issue:

“Romney believes that one way to attract more minorities to the GOP is to pass immigration reform before the next election, saying the issue becomes demagogued by both parties on the campaign trail."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/romney-breaks-with-gop-on-the-issue-of-deregulation-2009-04-01.html

Revenant said...

Garage,

I'm on notoriously inaccurate Wiki and it sez Bowing to other human beings is frowned upon in Muslim cultures as all human beings are considered equal and bowing is only supposed to be done to God in Islam.

If you stopped to think for a minute, you'd realize that you just confirmed Elcu's claim. Why would bowing be frowned upon just because "all human beings are considered equal"? Answer: because bowing is done to acknowledge another person's superiority.

That's even the case in Japan, actually. The reason people bow to one another is that each is making a formality of saying "you're better than me". Anyone who has ever tried to get a Japanese person to accept a compliment knows what I'm talking about here; the culture places a big emphasis on not holding yourself up to be better than anyone else.

Methadras said...

Big Mike said...

I have to agree with garage (makes this a red letter day, I guess).

Of course as my son's high school and college teachers used to emphasize, wikipedia is not always a reliable source. However this site seems to say much the same thing and it sure as heck looks authoritative.

But I agree with m00se. Obama's bow (or partial bow, as it appeared to me in the clip I saw yesterday) is still a gaffe any way you cut it, so go back to my comment at 8:56. He needs help with international protocol and he'd better get it fast.


It's not about a site being authoritative, it's about being correct. It doesn't take into account Arab royalty/nobility at all. It doesn't illicit any meanings by which supplication and prostration are called for in instances where one is viewed as a superior being introduced to a subordinate. If they were equals they would have greeted each other as such. The problem is that the POTUS is more or less supreme globally, but in this case all Mr. Barely had to do was give a slight head tilt, in affirmation from one head of state to another, shake the hand, say a few words in greeting and move on. But no, look at his body posture, look at the leg thrust out behind him, the off-center body positioning in the bow. It may even be construed that the Kings advisor is whispering in his hear and Mr. Barely is bending down to listen to what he is saying, but the body posture give it away. If someone short than me tries to whisper something to me, this is not the body posture I would take. It's unnatural what he is doing and prostration/supplication is meant to be unnatural because it is meant to confer the position of inferiority you are in. I completely reject your assessment.

ElcubanitoKC said...

And going back to arabic/muslim literature; you will find that kissing on both cheeks, hugging and holding hands are signs of closeness, camaraderie, familiarity, and of equality. You can find passages that read "he hugged him tightly, kissed him on both cheeks like an uncle, took his hand, and made him sit next to him as if he were his son."

Or when two brothers or friends encounter each other after separation: "they kissed each other on both cheeks efusively"

garage mahal said...

According to the link [that I admitted could be incorrect], it said in Muslim countries bowing is frowned upon only in one instance - bowing to God in Islam. I don't think anyone thinks Obama was bowing to Mohammad. Do they?

MnMark said...

Cedarford: Well, guess what. "When in Rome"....

But what about that situation called for a bow? Twenty leaders of various nations were meeting in Great Britain. Did anyone else bow to the Saudi king? Did he bow to anyone else? Not as far as I know. Everyone shook hands, just as virtually everyone (except the Saudi) wore western business suits, including the Chinese leader, where a western business suit is certainly not his culture's traditional dress.

No, the protocol of the day was the meeting of equals in a western setting. Nothing about that called for the President to bow to a Saudi king. It was grossly inappropriate and either reflects a shocking ignorance of actual protocol or an alarmingly out-of-touch worldview that the U.S. needs to seriously humble itself before the rest of the world, going to the extent of symbolically assuming a subservient position before antagonistic foreign nations.

There's really no defending it either way. Obama's supporters would do better to just say "yes, it was a mistake, and I hope we'll learn why he did it and that there will be nothing more of the kind in the future," and let it go, rather than trying to dismiss a highly symbolic diplomatic gesture as unimportant or trying to find some moral equivalence with something Bush did or didn't do. (It would be surprising if Bush suddenly became the standard of what is acceptable to the Left in terms of Presidential behavior.)

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

According to the link [that I admitted could be incorrect], it said in Muslim countries bowing is frowned upon only in one instance - bowing to God in Islam. I don't think anyone thinks Obama was bowing to Mohammad. Do they?


You've never been to a Muslim country have you? Much less an Arab Muslim country? Trust me when I tell you that if you as an inferior are presented to a superior, you do what Mr. Barely did. Come on man, stop being so fucking naive or willfully ignorant.

Methadras said...

ElcubanitoKC said...

And going back to arabic/muslim literature; you will find that kissing on both cheeks, hugging and holding hands are signs of closeness, camaraderie, familiarity, and of equality. You can find passages that read "he hugged him tightly, kissed him on both cheeks like an uncle, took his hand, and made him sit next to him as if he were his son."

Or when two brothers or friends encounter each other after separation: "they kissed each other on both cheeks efusively"


This is customary practice all over the Muslim world, Arab or otherwise. However, the origination is primarily Arab. This is still done today regardless of station or position. It tends to have more meaning when heads of state do it. If Mr. Barely had done this, it wouldn't have been an issue and would have been considered a great honor to bestow on the King.

Methadras said...

Big Mike said...

They'd better get a good Chief of Protocol on board immediately.


The problem with that is, is that he/she will have tax issues and be vetted incorrectly and incompetently.

ElcubanitoKC said...

garage, looking for a link for you, I stumbled upon this:

Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim

ALLAH ALMIGHTY DRESSED HOLY PROPHET saw FROM HIS OWN GLORY

Sohbet by Mevlana Seyh M. Nazim al-Hakkani al-Kibrisi Hazretleri

Thursday 9 RabiAwal, 1425
April 29, 2004
Lefke, Kibris

Destur, ya Sayyidi, Meded, ya Sultanu-l Anbiya, Meded, ya Sultanu-l Awliya, Meded, ya Rijalallah…Allah Allah…Audhu bi-llahi mina shaitani rajim, Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim, la haula wa la quwatta illa bi-llahi-l ‘Aliyu-l ‘Azim…

It is an association. The Seal of Prophets, (the) most honoured servant in (the) divinely Presence, S.Muhammad sws, Allah Almighty (was) addressing to him. (The) Holy Quran (was) coming from Heavens on his heart and (the) divinely Addressing (was) coming through himself to (all of) his nation. And his nation (is) all mankind- in his time and (everyone) up to (the) Last Day, the Day of Judgment, Resurrection Day. Allah Almighty (was) addressing to him and He was saying through his words (His divinely Message) to all mankind.

(A) Sultan (is) addressing (only) to one person for his royal commands, royal orders, royal rules. He is saying (his decisions) to the Grand Wezir and (then) that one is saying (it) to all (the) citizens of the Sultanate. There is no need for the Sultan to call everyone and to speak to them, no. One (person) is enough, (and) from (that) one (it is coming) to all. If that one is not there, then (it) can’t be (like that); (the) Sultan (is) never going to address to anyone, because His position is not suitable to come down; to come to the level of his citizens and to speak to them, no. Therefore Sultans were (always) keeping themselves; (they were) not coming through people, through common people, because (a Sultan) he has a glory and greatness, which belongs to him only. When he is coming to the level of common people, he is going to loose his greatness and glory. Common people should say: “Oh, this one is also like ourselves. Why? What is his position to be over ourselves, and why we are bowing (ourselves) to be under his command? Why we are going to bow to him?”

Yes, you are not bowing to the Sultan, but you are bowing to the position of his royal existence. You are not bowing to that man, but (to him) whom he is representing- you are bowing to that one. The Sultan is representing the real royal one; he is representing the Lord of Heavens’ representative! Therefore ignorant people were saying to everyone from Prophets and also to the last Prophet: “Oh, that one is like ourselves. He is going through streets, through markets, he is doing what we are doing- how he can be over our position?” They were not looking to his representation, that the Lord of Heavens (was) dressing him from His (own) Greatness and Glory. (Because of) his position you must bow to him, as when Allah Almighty created Adam and (He was) ordering to all angels: “Bow to Adam”- angels immediately were bowing. They were understanding his position, his essence, that Allah Almighty dressed him from His representation. Angels were knowing that just he had been dressed from Allah Almighty’s Glory. They were looking and seeing (that) and quickly (they were) running and bowing; they (were) never looking to his physical being, no. “Adam, just I created him. I am that One that created Adam with My Hands. This must be well-known through all creation.”

Allah Almighty never (was) giving that honour except to the father of mankind: to be made by His divinely Hands. Angels no, they are created by His Order, but Adam’s being Allah created it by his divinely Hands. That is glory, and that was only given to Adam. And after him, all of his generation was taking their shares from that honour. Angels are knowing that they have been created by the divinely Command (of Allah) to say: “Be”, and they were coming. They belong to Light Worlds. From divinely Lights they are coming. Through seconds billions and trillions of them are coming, no need for Allah Almighty to make them, their being with his divinely Hands. That is only granted to Adam. Dressing him from His Glory and putting from His divinely Crown on his head and angels were looking (that). When Allah Almighty was saying: “Bow to Adam”, immediately they were falling (down) and making Sajdah and bowing to him.


It can be found here:

http://www.mercyoceans.org/sohbets/20042004.txt

Big Mike said...

Now not only am I more or less agreeing with garage, but I'm more or less disagreeing with Methedras, who writes as though he's been there and has first-hand knowledge. Shit. This day is bad and getting worse.

And now Methedras is suggesting that we can't even get a Chief of Protocol vetted anytime soon. (On the other hand, if enough Democrats pay their back taxes, we might not have so much of a deficit after all.)

If you read to the end of my link in the previous posting, it says there is nothing wrong with bowing when "made just to show gratefulness to a person who deserves them". It goes on to way that "[b]owing is also a method of showing courtesy to kings and sultans."

So unless Obama was showing gratitude, he was -- according to the muslim religious authority I linked to -- showing courtesy.

But MuMark is right on point. It was inappropriate, even if not demonstrating subservience.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Here are two other Western leaders greeting Saudi kings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jJSxcnVhc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZfEKhSmIgM

Hoosier Daddy said...

I'm on notoriously inaccurate Wiki and it sez Bowing to other human beings is frowned upon in Muslim cultures as all human beings are considered equal and bowing is only supposed to be done to God in Islam.

So what your saying is that Obama just insulted the Saudi King.

Guy is just a walking fuckup ain't he?

JAL said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Revenant said...

it said in Muslim countries bowing is frowned upon only in one instance - bowing to God in Islam. I don't think anyone thinks Obama was bowing to Mohammad. Do they?

First of all, Muslims don't consider Mohammad to be God.

Secondly, even if it was correct that Muslims only even bow to God, that would simply change the nature of Obama's fuckup from "acknowledging the King as his superior" to "doing something Muslims like the King think is wildly inappropriate".

JAL said...

(Oops. I missed the preview button.)

I just figured there is a closet Republican in the state department behind all this: The "gifts," (DvDs and an iPod? Is this some 16 year old's birthday?) the button, the bow to a 'king,' the hug to the little old lady .... (Sheesh. IIRC, Prince Phillip isn't 'allowed' to touch the Queen of England in public.)

But when your schooling for obtaining and using power comes from Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, these things do not matter.

Last time I checked, Alinsky was a community organizer, and Elizabeth was Queen of England. And Barack Hussein Obama is a completely unaware individual -- or one scarey narcissistic dude aiming at owning the world.

2010 can't come soon enough.

It is going to be a long 4 years.

But I do believe in American exceptionalism... so there is hope for change.

JAL said...

Yah King Addbullah, I honoer your vice and virtue police and their ministry to young girls ....

garage mahal said...

You've never been to a Muslim country have you? Much less an Arab Muslim country?

Nope, never have. Last place I'd want to visit actually. It's clearly a wicked and cruel religion - I was just reading a news wire that the Taliban was refusing 300,000 polio vaccines into Afghanistan. Fuckers.

Off to the Tilted Kilt for some Stellas and scenery for this guy.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Nope, never have. Last place I'd want to visit actually. It's clearly a wicked and cruel religion

I knew you had a redeeming quality for a liberal ;-)

Methadras said...

Big Mike said...

Now not only am I more or less agreeing with garage, but I'm more or less disagreeing with Methedras, who writes as though he's been there and has first-hand knowledge. Shit. This day is bad and getting worse.


I do have first hand-knowledge of Arabs and Muslims of all varieties. I've traveled, extensively throughout the M.E. and know their cultures pretty well.

And now Methedras is suggesting that we can't even get a Chief of Protocol vetted anytime soon. (On the other hand, if enough Democrats pay their back taxes, we might not have so much of a deficit after all.)

Well, if the back taxes fit. Meh, you know the rest.

If you read to the end of my link in the previous posting, it says there is nothing wrong with bowing when "made just to show gratefulness to a person who deserves them". It goes on to way that "[b]owing is also a method of showing courtesy to kings and sultans."

So unless Obama was showing gratitude, he was -- according to the muslim religious authority I linked to -- showing courtesy.

But MuMark is right on point. It was inappropriate, even if not demonstrating subservience.


The problem with this hypothesis is that you don't take into account the perception that this has within the Muslim world. When they see this, are they going to think like you do? No. They will see what they see, an Abid (a black), who just happens to be POTUS bowing and supplicating himself to The King of the House of Saud. If you can't even understand this basic use of propaganda, then I'm not sure how it would help you to try and rationalize what you just saw. So there may be actually nothing behind this protocol gaffe, but what is done is done now isn't it? If you've ever taken a basic communications class, you will be told one of the first rules of communication; once you say something, you can never take it back. In this regard, once the imagery is shown, it can't be undone.

It's not about whether you agree with me or not, but it's about how this image is going to be leveraged in the Muslim world as a function of how Mr. Barely is conducting himself as POTUS within the context of waging a war against Muslims as Muslims seem to think is what is going on. It's a loser and Mr. Barely in his fumbling, incompetent naiveté has just created something he won't be able to explain away with a teleprompter.

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

Nope, never have. Last place I'd want to visit actually. It's clearly a wicked and cruel religion - I was just reading a news wire that the Taliban was refusing 300,000 polio vaccines into Afghanistan. Fuckers.

Off to the Tilted Kilt for some Stellas and scenery for this guy.


Of course Islam is a wicked and cruel religion, but it has 1.2 billion practitioners, but you didn't answer the question outside of your parsed quote to answer it with a near non-sequitor. The problem is, is that you are ready, willing, and able to dismiss anything this man does. He could have actually looked at the camera first and said, "I'm going to supplicate and prostrate myself to the King" and the proceeds to do it and in Eddie Murphy like fashion you would be the first in line to begin a campaign of misinformation and dismissal that the act even occurred. You are as culpable in his incompetence as an example of the type of person who voted for him; a large cadre of other incompetent fools, who fancy themselves educated, overly-nuanced practitioners of an ideology that is filled with like minded morons.

Balfegor said...

Americans have a big thing about bowing and human dignity, and I find it kind of amusing, since it's one of the cultural cleavages between myself (I reflexively bow in greeting, thanks, apology, whatever), and my sisters (one of whom has actually refused to bow on occasion, on the grounds that it is demeaning). On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Muslims have the same peculiar hang-up about bowing, don't they? I thought there was some Muslim custom about not bowing to other men, only to God, or something like that.

Seven Machos said...

I've been to Muslim countries. Saw no bowing. Obama managed to do something that was culturally stupid in the country he represents and the one he was representing it to. Brilliant! Way smarter than Bush.

By the way, Cedarford: what do you do when you are in Israel? I bet that's a real quandary.

Balfegor said...

Ah, I see the point has been articulated in much finer detail than I ever could above. Well, in any event, it's a silly hang-up, and if the President wants to bow, let him bow.

I shall, of course, expect him to do a deep bow and a crab-walk before the God Emperor of Japan, and show appropriate respect to the various princes and monarch of South-East Asia. Can't show favouritism.

Synova said...

Since I took karate I sort of got used to the constant bowing thing. Bowing to the instructor, the mat, the dojo, your opponent.

I think it makes a difference if bowing is like shaking hands or kissing cheeks in greeting, or if it's like a western bow or curtsy or salute and indicates station.

Seven Machos said...

Perhaps Obama will get on the ground and completely prostrate himself when he meets the guy in charge of the next oil-rich, woman-hating, terrorist-appeasing emirate.

Big Mike said...

@Methadras, I agree with what you say. Order is restored to the universe.

Peter V. Bella said...

When he goes to China, he will turn his back on the Priemer, bend over, and grab his anlkes as a sign obeisance to our new financial masters.

Bissage said...

I had a girlfriend who would bow at the waist when giving head because she thought getting down on her knees was demeaning.

She fancied herself a feminist.

I am not making this up.

Seven Machos said...

Bissage wins the thread. Again.

Damn you, Bissage!

yashu said...

(Wow Bissage, that's just sad.)

Meanwhile, via Ace, here's what America's president has to say to Europe:

'In his opening remarks, he underscored European and American ties and appeared intent on improving the U.S. image abroad, which suffered under George W. Bush. "I've come to Europe this week to renew our partnership," Obama said, bluntly claiming that the relationship between the United States and Europe had gone adrift, with blame on both sides.

"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world," Obama said.

Instead of celebrating Europe's dynamic union and seeking to work with you, Obama said, "there have been times where America's shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive."'

Hear that, Europe? European anti-Americanism is our fault. Not just Bush's-- America's. Yeah, we asked for it. But now that our president's repeatedly trashing our ex-president, admitting to & apologizing for America's awful cowboy ways, it's all good. Restart [overcharge]!

Yet peace for all time, under the benevolent Obama, is not yet quite in our grasp. Lest we forget:

"I think it is important for Europe to understand that even though I am president and George Bush is not president, al-Qaida is still a threat."

*Even though* George Bush is not president, *even though* Obama is now our president, al-Qaida is *still* a threat! Yes, obviously, Bush is mostly to blame for al-Qaida's terrorizing the world-- stupid cowboy provoked them, damn him. But now that our president, on behalf of America, has repudiated that awful man, now that Obama's here to set right America's wrongs, al-Qaida will have no reason (as it *has* had) to attack... but it's gonna take a while for that message to get through to them. Sorry world, it's gonna take a while to clean up Bush's mess! Including any al-Qaida attacks that may occur during Obama's presidency-- those would just be part & parcel of Bush's awful legacy.

Also via Ace, at last week's meeting with bank CEO's, Obama-- the Obama who compared AIG & banks to suicide bombers; the Obama who said he didn't want to quell populist rage re AIG bonuses, but "channel" it (bonuses his administration signed off on, but how's that relevant?); the Obama whose stimulus bill provides billions for Acorn, which in turn sponsored bus tours for angry mobs to AIG employees' homes-- let the bank CEOs know what's what:

'“These are complicated companies,” one CEO said. Offered another: “We’re competing for talent on an international market.”

But President Barack Obama wasn’t in a mood to hear them out. He stopped the conversation, and offered a blunt reminder of the public’s reaction to such explanations. “Be careful how you make those statements, gentlemen. The public isn’t buying that.”

“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.”'

Or, as Slublog at Ace's puts it, 'Hey, nice company ya got there. It would be a shame if anything were to, ya know, happen to it.'

*****

It's hard for me to overstate how disgusted I am that this man is our president.

Steven said...

and he treats a Saudi Arabian with due respect.

No, undue respect. Obama's a fellow head of state, he does not bow.

Bush's hand-holding is explained away as "a cultural" nicety. Ummm. So is a bow.

No, not from a head of state.

Displays of (often hypocritical) brotherhood, friendship, and the like are long-established as standard protocol on the head-of-state level. Displays of deference or obeisance are not.

Obama screwed up.

Methadras said...

Bissage said...

I had a girlfriend who would bow at the waist when giving head because she thought getting down on her knees was demeaning.

She fancied herself a feminist.

I am not making this up.


Damn dude. How in the hell could she do this on a bed? Wait, forget I even asked.

Peter V. Bella said...

Hey Bissage, that is ok, but could you rest a beer on her back while she was doing it?

Peter V. Bella said...

One of the traditions of the presidency has been that former and current presidents do not critcize or trash each other.

Obam seems to have no sense of protocol or tradition. He will trash his predecessor to gain favor with a bunch of people who do not have our interests at heart. In effect, like Carter and Clinton, Obama is a traitor.

Eric said...

Obama seems to have no sense of protocol or tradition. He will trash his predecessor to gain favor with a bunch of people who do not have our interests at heart. In effect, like Carter and Clinton, Obama is a traitor

Based on what he says he seems to think all he has to do to be loved outside the US is point out how much he isn't Bush. You can almost see the other leaders laughing behind their hands.

The extent to which previous presidents were respected and Bush was reviled is very much exaggerated on the left. You make mistakes when you start to buy into your own propaganda.

Mark said...

I'm just wondering when Althouse introduces the "Oops" tag....

Duscany said...

"I had a girlfriend who would bow at the waist when giving head because she thought getting down on her knees was demeaning."

Never criticize a woman giving you a blowjob.

Methadras said...

Duscany said...

Never criticize a woman while she is giving you a blowjob.


Fixed for clarity and truth. :D

Eric said...

I'm just trying to picture the conversation with her doctor when she goes in for back pain.

OhioAnne said...

While I was surprised by President Obama's decision to bow, it doesn't surprise me in the least that he took one action in the presence of the Queen and a different action in the presence of the King.

The King is a man. The Queen isn't.

As Presidents go, Obama is one of the most sexist I have seen in a long time.

Jake said...

I make it a practice of bowing to the guy who paid for my grad school degree (in my case, myself).

Laura(southernxyl) said...

OhioAnne, I see that too. Don't think many do.

I think whatever cultural context, a unilateral bow means the same thing: you are my superior. IMO, no American should bow to anyone, ever.

F15C said...

OhioAnne: "it doesn't surprise me in the least that he took one action in the presence of the Queen and a different action in the presence of the King."

I noticed this as well. There are at least two aspects to Obama's bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia.

First, an American President should not bow before any king or queen. Obama's bow was wrong and humiliated our nation.

Second, the fact that he bowed to the king of SA and not to the queen of England is very interesting - and possibly telling as OhioAnne pointed out.

That he chose not to bow to the queen and chose to bow deeply to the king means something.

Maguro said...

That he chose not to bow to the queen and chose to bow deeply to the king means something.

Seems more like exaggerated deference to a guy in authentic third-world native dress than sexism. It really fits into his whole he's-so-much-nicer-and-more-sensitive-than-Bush schtick. I guess this type of bowing and scraping is supposed to make everyone like us or something.

F15C said...

Maguro: "Seems more like exaggerated deference to a guy in authentic third-world native dress than sexism."

I don't know that it is sexism that motivated his behavior in the two situations. Obama was less deferential to PM Brown than to the queen IMO.

I'm willing to believe that Obama just made a terribly stupid gaffe in bowing to the not-so-benevolent ruler of Saudi Arabia, but the behavior is so odd I suspect there is more to it than just stupidity.

I could be wrong.

yashu said...

But see, this is just brilliant diplomacy. After all, all these countries (say they) *like* Obama-- they really really like him! And adore his wife! Er, national interests? Defending our allies? What's the point of that? That's why they disliked Bush! All that matters is, they really really like our president now!

It's so important that Russia, for example, really likes Obama... so much more than that stubborn cowboy Bush, who just refused to do what Russia wanted him to-- that's just bad diplomacy. (And if anyone has the moral standing to criticize our ex-president for brutal unilateralism, it's Russia!) Notice, too, how enthusiastically Russia now employs the meme Obama (like Hillary with her 'reset' button) has generously provided. Because proactively granting that everything our ex-president did or demanded, in our national interest, was a grave mistake or injustice, is just the way to further our national int-- sorry, I forgot myself for a minute-- to get them to like us!

AFP:

'Russia's Dmitry Medvedev hailed Barack Obama as "my new comrade" Thursday after their first face-to-face talks, saying the US president "can listen" -- even if little progress was made on substance.

The Russian president contrasted Obama as "totally different" to his predecessor George W. Bush, whom he blamed for the "mistake" of US missile shield plans fiercely opposed by Moscow. [...]

"I liked the talks. It is easy to talk to him. He can listen. The start of this relationship is good," he said, adding: "Today it's a totally different situation (compared to Bush)... This suits me quite well." [...]

The pair also discussed thorny issues including NATO's eastwards expansion, long opposed by Moscow which sees it as a power-grab by the West's former Cold War-era military bloc into former Soviet territory. [...]

They also discussed US plans for a missile defence shield, based in former communist-bloc countries which are now members of NATO and the European Union, like the Czech Republic.

Again, Medvedev was complimentary.

"Today from the United States there is at least a desire to listen to our arguments," he said, adding that: "Such defence measures should be carried out jointly" between Washington and Moscow.

The missile defence plan was "a mistake that the previous US administration is responsible for. Many of my European colleagues also believe this," the Russian leader added, without specifying who. [...]'

yashu said...

Seriously, even Jackson Diehl at the Washington Post can't avoid evincing some contempt for Obama's spinelessness:

"Barack Obama has proved in the past few days that he can work smoothly and productively with a wide range of foreign leaders — provided that he allows them to set the agenda. …

What’s striking about Obama’s diplomacy, however, has been his willingness to embrace the priorities of European governments, Russia and China while playing down — or setting aside altogether — principal American concerns.

As U.S. officials readily acknowledge, strategic arms control is of much greater interest to Russia — whose nuclear arsenal is rapidly deteriorating — than it is to the United States. From Washington’s perspective, stopping Iran’s nuclear program is far more urgent than agreeing on the next incremental reduction in Cold War warheads. Yet Obama essentially consented in his first summit with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev to devote the next four months of U.S.-Russian relations to an intensive effort to complete a new START treaty. No such cooperation on Iran is on the horizon. “I don’t think we want to suggest that somehow . . . there’s agreement about how to proceed,” one U.S. briefer conceded.

The G-20 and NATO summits followed a similar pattern. Even before Obama traveled to Europe, his administration surrendered on the biggest U.S. priorities — which were prompting Germany and other Western European countries to boost domestic spending and dispatch more troops and trainers to Afghanistan. With stimulus off the table, the economic summit centered on the platform of Germany and France — expanding government regulation — and on areas of general agreement, such as the provision of fresh funding for the IMF."

*****

Sure, Obama has had to concede much more than Bush, & has gotten nothing more (indeed markedly less) than Bush did in return, but... they really like Obama, so now they must not hate America! Success!

John said...

http://you.arehated.com/2009/04/manners-from-mars.html

Trevor Jackson said...

Let's make this an even 200.

Bush didn't just hold hands or kiss a cheek. He bowed, too.

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